Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

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someotherguy
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Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by someotherguy »

So, my mom is as described. Large debt, if forgiven, would be above medicaid yearly qualification. Is, that, well, ...an issue...? She gets a little over $700 in Social Security, as you know, most taken. There is a (very poor) rural ranch house on land (worth very well under 6 digits total), but there is a life use estate (I always forget the proper term). It was in place for over 15 years. Some laws changed a few years ago, but since it was in place before then, it's supposed to protect it, confirmed by 3 different lawyers since the change when I brought it up. Judgment proof. Was trying to talk to the card companies, but they refuse, verbal consent "yes" didn't get me much other than them trying to get me to pay. And BOA, one card, is refusing a valid copy of a POA (accepted anywhere in my state, my attorney said I should stop trying and they were being ridiculous, and said the income PROBABLY wouldn't hurt anything but I needed to speak to someone else). Just wanted to be sure....

Second part, I know I should post a second question, but didn't want to spam, will post second if needed. She received an unexpected/didn't know about check for about $1100 from the electric coop (from patronage almost 30 years ago?). Same question for it? Issue? I know I have to report it, and I know it probably needs paid somewhere. Basically, who to tell/what to do? And I didn't know if it would mess up something that I need to be prepared for.

Thanks, sorry if these are repeated questions, I tried searching but didn't have much luck, or time.... Many, many other things going on and I'm practically running in circles with everything.
jebmke
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by jebmke »

Welcome to the forum.

Hard to follow your paragraphs. You might want to edit them for clarity.

I believe Medicaid requirements are mostly state-specific. One idea is to see if there is a senior center in the area that has resources that help navigate various state, local and federal benefits for seniors. Some senior centers have on site resources or have references on who to contact.

Best of luck.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

How old is the debt? From what? Did the attorney give you the 2 words to give to the credit card companies....."Pound Sand"?
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cashmoney
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by cashmoney »

someotherguy wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:06 am So, my mom is as described. Large debt, if forgiven, would be above medicaid yearly qualification. Is, that, well, ...an issue...? She gets a little over $700 in Social Security, as you know, most taken. There is a (very poor) rural ranch house on land (worth very well under 6 digits total), but there is a life use estate (I always forget the proper term). It was in place for over 15 years. Some laws changed a few years ago, but since it was in place before then, it's supposed to protect it, confirmed by 3 different lawyers since the change when I brought it up. Judgment proof. Was trying to talk to the card companies, but they refuse, verbal consent "yes" didn't get me much other than them trying to get me to pay. And BOA, one card, is refusing a valid copy of a POA (accepted anywhere in my state, my attorney said I should stop trying and they were being ridiculous, and said the income PROBABLY wouldn't hurt anything but I needed to speak to someone else). Just wanted to be sure....

Second part, I know I should post a second question, but didn't want to spam, will post second if needed. She received an unexpected/didn't know about check for about $1100 from the electric coop (from patronage almost 30 years ago?). Same question for it? Issue? I know I have to report it, and I know it probably needs paid somewhere. Basically, who to tell/what to do? And I didn't know if it would mess up something that I need to be prepared for.

Thanks, sorry if these are repeated questions, I tried searching but didn't have much luck, or time.... Many, many other things going on and I'm practically running in circles with everything.

i would think the debt will help her when applying for medicaid but if you are saying she owns land/property other than her residence that would be an asset that would disqualify her for Medicaid usually. She would get a 1099 for the debt forgiveness but if someone is insolvent in the tax year it was forgiven i believe the IRS doesn't count it as income.
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cchrissyy
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by cchrissyy »

this isn't my expertise, i am only writing to say as i read it, i can't tell if your mom is about to apply for medicaid or does she already have it. and is she already in a nursing home? also, her state will matter.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by Mudpuppy »

It sounds like you have an attorney and these are questions best suited for an attorney. If your attorney is not specifically in this field, ask them for a reference for someone who is.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by LadyGeek »

Discussions of dishonest behavior or bypassing the law is totally unacceptable. I removed a post suggesting an illegal way to influence a decision in the OP's favor.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by rooms222 »

Coop dividends are often not taxable, and are not the same as stock dividends. https://smartasset.com/investing/what-i ... e%20income.
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someotherguy
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by someotherguy »

More rambling.

Sorry, I tried to be specific in the title. My first sentence was intended to mean, well, that's how she is. She's in a nursing home with dementia, already on Medicaid, with that debt (and unexpected income). Just wondered if forgiven, considered income, would cause an issue.

Nebraska. She started Medicaid years ago. Life estate was in place (house and land it's on was not an issue, residence excluded anyway, house is on small amount of extra land but was allowed).

Debt is several years old. Not frivolous, at least not much, household expenses, insurance, supplies, ... paying her other bills, etc. Minimum payments, high interest, payments have exceeded principle by a fair amount on all debt.

She stopped driving over a decade ago, all cooking and cleaning shortly after. Nursing home has been a few months after increasing serious episodes and decline.

Tried talking, mainly with BOA, after it looked like she was going to stay permanently, wasn't sure for a while. There is no bank branch within probably 300 miles, they tell me to mail documents, and it takes a month for them to reply, tried a couple times.

So, a little tired dealing with them, or trying to.

I've got an old tractor apart in my shop, and multiple other items I'm working on that all need done yesterday, very late hours plus all day, family stuff, dealing with a few incidents with her, my head isn't fully into this situation, or proper grammar, so I apologize. I literally dozed off while typing this, hasn't been a break in a very long time. Excuse, I know.

I'll be glad if it gets handled. And just having an idea before I talk to someone is helpful. When I do talk to someone it's a minimum 60 mile trip (closest town), last official question I asked cost $250, so I just want to be sure I know as much as possible first.
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someotherguy
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by someotherguy »

rooms222 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:10 pm Coop dividends are often not taxable, and are not the same as stock dividends. https://smartasset.com/investing/what-i ... e%20income.
Thanks, I'll look into that.
nonnie
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by nonnie »

You mentioned BoA, this is credit card debt correct? Is there other credit card debt? Were these credit cards in your mother's name only? If so, why would you have a responsibility to pay? CC companies try very hard to get relatives or survivors to pay debt but unless there is a legal responsibility such as a joint account or cosigner, It's not necessary.
Have they been trying to get payments from your mother's assets or income? Do they have access to that?

If these questions are misplaced, please ignore.
nonnie
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by nonnie »

Here's a link that might help:
https://www.healthreformbeyondthebasics ... -coverage/

May or may not be a good example but -Income definitions for Medicaid coverage includes "Debts forgiven"
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

1. if your mom is long term in skilled care, then she will not be returning home and technically does not need credit. If her resources are spent down and her income goes to the nursing home (presumably because she's on medicaid) then she doesn't have the resources or income to pay the credit card bill. It can/will go to collections. Will it harm her credit? Yes. Will it matter? No. Why? Because she doesn't need to apply for credit in the future. Some families don't feel right about it and pay the parent's credit card bill. They're under no legal or financial obligation to do so, but sometimes they do it anyway for moral reasons.

2. regarding the check received from the coop, is this to be continued or just a one time thing? the difference might matter, in that if it's to be regular/recurring income, it would be payable to the nursing home each month. If it's a one time thing, like a tax refund might be, that generally can be allowed as your mom's resource, provided the amount does not when added to any/all other resources she has, put her above the medicaid resource limit. If it does, then it would have to be spent down to the point where her resources are again below the medicaid limit. How you'd handle that would be up to the assistance office. They could have her pay the amount to estate recovery since medicaid has already been paying for her care so this would be a partial reimbursement. Or the assistance office could close the case for a certain number of days equal to the amount to be paid for private pay days at the nursing home.

It's also allowable generally for her to use the money on things for herself. If she needs new clothes, personal supplies, chair for her room, etc she could use the funds for herself. She could also put the money into an irrevocable burial reserve. If she has one already, she could add to it, provided she doesn't go over the medicaid limit for irrevocable burial reserves.

Or she could use the funds to pay off/down the credit card bill. (see what I did there? kill two birds with one stone).

3. regarding the life estate, just make sure the lawyer you had draw up the paperwork was an elder law attorney specializing in medicaid policy. People make the mistake that any lawyer is a good lawyer, and that's simply not true. You can read more on life estate treatment in Nebraska here:

https://dhhs.ne.gov/Documents/477-000-030.pdf
https://dhhs.ne.gov/Documents/477-000-038.pdf
https://www.nebraska.gov/rules-and-regs ... ter-23.pdf

does that help?
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Running Bum
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by Running Bum »

If you're in or near Lincoln, we've found Aging Partners to be a very useful resource for getting my mother on Medicaid. Her case was a lot more straightforward than yours sounds though. Not sure if they have the expertise to handle yours but it may be worth a try. Can't your lawyer help?
Topic Author
someotherguy
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by someotherguy »

nonnie wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 8:54 pm Here's a link that might help:
https://www.healthreformbeyondthebasics ... -coverage/

May or may not be a good example but -Income definitions for Medicaid coverage includes "Debts forgiven"
Yes, I was seeing things like that in my initial looking, but contradicted by the comment the lawyer made, and a few forums I read.

If it actually does interfere, I really don't know what to do if there is nothing to pay anything with (with her resources, and, even if say, I, do something, quite a burden beyond all the years already).
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:28 pm 1.

2.

3.
1. I have seen that.
2. Noted, and I figured. As much as the cards have been paid, well, I should have stopped listening to her years ago. But I couldn't renegotiate interest or they'd have been paid off (tried years ago, they wouldn't work with me/limited her), couldn't transfer in her name. As much as they have received, and the hassle, well, I guess I'm at a point of not "caring" what they get, other than what needs done. The coop payment is once, but it looks like it might be every few years. I haven't talked to the Electric yet to see more about how it works.
3. Like I said, it was done properly, multiple lawyers have looked at it (and yes, elder), so, it's SUPPOSED to be ok.
Running Bum wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:35 pm If you're in or near Lincoln, we've found Aging Partners to be a very useful resource for getting my mother on Medicaid. Her case was a lot more straightforward than yours sounds though. Not sure if they have the expertise to handle yours but it may be worth a try. Can't your lawyer help?
No, not near there or any big city (defining big city as something that has a Walmart), few hours. I will see about local, a DHHS or SS/whatever office is a couple hours. Lawyer, yes, but like I said, more than basic questions and unofficial answers cost a lot, and it's not like I have extra after all the years of basically not being able to be away from her house for more than an hour or two at a time for over a decade, so I'd like to have my ducks in a row first, so there isn't as much time wasted.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by ncbill »

someotherguy wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:06 am So, my mom is as described. Large debt, if forgiven, would be above medicaid yearly qualification. Is, that, well, ...an issue...? She gets a little over $700 in Social Security, as you know, most taken. There is a (very poor) rural ranch house on land (worth very well under 6 digits total), but there is a life use estate (I always forget the proper term). It was in place for over 15 years. Some laws changed a few years ago, but since it was in place before then, it's supposed to protect it, confirmed by 3 different lawyers since the change when I brought it up. Judgment proof. Was trying to talk to the card companies, but they refuse, verbal consent "yes" didn't get me much other than them trying to get me to pay. And BOA, one card, is refusing a valid copy of a POA (accepted anywhere in my state, my attorney said I should stop trying and they were being ridiculous, and said the income PROBABLY wouldn't hurt anything but I needed to speak to someone else). Just wanted to be sure....

Second part, I know I should post a second question, but didn't want to spam, will post second if needed. She received an unexpected/didn't know about check for about $1100 from the electric coop (from patronage almost 30 years ago?). Same question for it? Issue? I know I have to report it, and I know it probably needs paid somewhere. Basically, who to tell/what to do? And I didn't know if it would mess up something that I need to be prepared for.

Thanks, sorry if these are repeated questions, I tried searching but didn't have much luck, or time.... Many, many other things going on and I'm practically running in circles with everything.
Credit card companies won't be forgiving any of her debt, so there will be no income from that.

They'll continue to try to collect from your mom and you should you continue to engage with them.

Since she's already on Medicaid there's nothing they can get from her so there's no point in you trying to negotiate with them.

Don't contact them again & circular-file any correspondence.
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by vested1 »

Your best approach concerning Medicaid would be to be honest and upfront with your county social services department. Tell them about the extra payment from the coop. In my experience they are so unused to people being honest with them that they will not count it as income, which is apparently at their discretion, believe it or not.

My wife and I handled my MIL's medicaid after her money ran out, and my brother did the same with my sister's medicaid after her savings ran out, both in California. Both my MIL and my sister received a settlement of separate deferred annuities after they matured that immediately started paying monthly, which was a surprise. They were already on medicaid by that time and the added income was not listed previously because nobody but my MIL and sister knew about them and they had forgotten. In both cases my brother and I, in different counties reported the income to medicaid immediately and asked them what should be done. We fully expected those annuity payments to be claimed as income and paid to their respective care homes.

Both separate agents in different offices were taken aback by our honesty and said not to worry about it. My brother and I used the added income to provide extra things for my MIL and my sister. The added income was used only for their benefit until their deaths, when the annuities ended.

As for Bank of America, this thread should compel anyone who has an aging relative who has accounts there to switch them to a different bank. I can't tell you how much trouble we had with them over my MIL's accounts. My wife and her brother had a POA but they would only deal with him, and he lived several states away, and wasn't trusted by her local branch. The local branch insisted that my MIL visit in person to make any changes to her accounts, even though she was 94, blind, in extreme pain if moved, and unable to walk. I asked sarcastically if we should bring her by ambulance and they said, "Sure".

I would look into getting her an attorney who specializes in elder law. I would ignore the credit card bills if there is any chance that forgiveness would affect your mother's medicaid. She has no money, and you are not responsible for her debts. Others may disagree.
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beyou
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by beyou »

If you can get the local office for Medicaid to answer the phone, just describe the situation and ask for advice. I found one must be persistent to get through and speak to a person.

You may have to fill out a form to have the right to speak on behalf of another, before they will talk to you.
HomeStretch
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by HomeStretch »

Medicaid varies by state. Consult as needed with an experienced elder law attorney in your mom’s state. You don’t want anything to disqualify your mom from Medicaid.

In my dad’s state, his Medicaid LTC grant requirements were such that I would have had to report within 10(?) days any income that caused him to go over the $2k in countable assets he was allowed at month-end.
(1) 1099 income from debt forgiveness would be reported. As it’s non-cash, no further action required.
(2) $1100 in co-op income would not be reported unless his month-end countable assets would be >$2k. If projected to be over, I would spend down the excess $ before month-end on something to benefit my dad - adaptable clothing, personal items, attorney consultation, start a Medicaid-compliant burial trust which is not a countable asset, etc. If I couldn’t spend it, I would be required to send the excess over $2k to the care facility. This in turn would reduce the amount that Medicaid needed to pay the facility for the month.
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someotherguy
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by someotherguy »

vested1 wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:16 am Your best approach concerning Medicaid would be to be honest and upfront with your county social services department. Tell them about the extra payment from the coop. In my experience they are so unused to people being honest with them that they will not count it as income, which is apparently at their discretion, believe it or not.

My wife and I handled my MIL's medicaid after her money ran out, and my brother did the same with my sister's medicaid after her savings ran out, both in California. Both my MIL and my sister received a settlement of separate deferred annuities after they matured that immediately started paying monthly, which was a surprise. They were already on medicaid by that time and the added income was not listed previously because nobody but my MIL and sister knew about them and they had forgotten. In both cases my brother and I, in different counties reported the income to medicaid immediately and asked them what should be done. We fully expected those annuity payments to be claimed as income and paid to their respective care homes.

Both separate agents in different offices were taken aback by our honesty and said not to worry about it. My brother and I used the added income to provide extra things for my MIL and my sister. The added income was used only for their benefit until their deaths, when the annuities ended.

As for Bank of America, this thread should compel anyone who has an aging relative who has accounts there to switch them to a different bank. I can't tell you how much trouble we had with them over my MIL's accounts. My wife and her brother had a POA but they would only deal with him, and he lived several states away, and wasn't trusted by her local branch. The local branch insisted that my MIL visit in person to make any changes to her accounts, even though she was 94, blind, in extreme pain if moved, and unable to walk. I asked sarcastically if we should bring her by ambulance and they said, "Sure".

I would look into getting her an attorney who specializes in elder law. I would ignore the credit card bills if there is any chance that forgiveness would affect your mother's medicaid. She has no money, and you are not responsible for her debts. Others may disagree.
beyou wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:23 am If you can get the local office for Medicaid to answer the phone, just describe the situation and ask for advice. I found one must be persistent to get through and speak to a person.

You may have to fill out a form to have the right to speak on behalf of another, before they will talk to you.
HomeStretch wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:26 am Medicaid varies by state. Consult as needed with an experienced elder law attorney in your mom’s state. You don’t want anything to disqualify your mom from Medicaid.

In my dad’s state, his Medicaid LTC grant requirements were such that I would have had to report within 10(?) days any income that caused him to go over the $2k in countable assets he was allowed at month-end.
(1) 1099 income from debt forgiveness would be reported. As it’s non-cash, no further action required.
(2) $1100 in co-op income would not be reported unless his month-end countable assets would be >$2k. If projected to be over, I would spend down the excess $ before month-end on something to benefit my dad - adaptable clothing, personal items, attorney consultation, start a Medicaid-compliant burial trust which is not a countable asset, etc. If I couldn’t spend it, I would be required to send the excess over $2k to the care facility. This in turn would reduce the amount that Medicaid needed to pay the facility for the month.
Thank you everyone. I'm becoming a little more settled with the situation, and the advice here, trying to get things before the end of the month, handling it. I see someone elsewhere mention "phantom income" and irs form 982, so I'm looking into that (and see an in-state short mention of it being used), adding an accountant into my list.... I truly appreciate being pointed in the right directions, and possible outcomes. It's so helpful when I've never had anyone to help/converse with here (that I wouldn't have to pay, or at least prospect of paying future business). I have an in person (and, well, phone I guess) people anxiety-type issue so that doesn't help much (think I should have been diagnosed with something as a child, because, well, there's always been something). Typing is much easier (though I don't do it well).
HomeStretch
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Re: Mom, nursing home, dementia, Medicaid, card writeoff income

Post by HomeStretch »

someotherguy wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 8:50 am Thank you everyone. …
You are welcome. Keep asking questions if you need help as there are a good number of forum members that have been in similar situations that are generous in sharing help with others. This forum was very helpful to me with issues impacting my parents.
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