What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Two heads are better than one - and in this case many heads - to think about possible implications...
Why is it best to keep one's net worth and finances private?
I am a very private person and struggle with this question now that I need to share information to get help, from forums, from financial advisors, from retirement planning software containing macros that could send my information to third parties on the internet without my knowledge....etc.
If you don't give authorization to anyone to move funds, what is the worst that can happen if "the worng person" gets a hold of your financial information?
Examples please.
Why is it best to keep one's net worth and finances private?
I am a very private person and struggle with this question now that I need to share information to get help, from forums, from financial advisors, from retirement planning software containing macros that could send my information to third parties on the internet without my knowledge....etc.
If you don't give authorization to anyone to move funds, what is the worst that can happen if "the worng person" gets a hold of your financial information?
Examples please.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Credit card information can be used to make purchases. Financial account information can be used to initiate fund transfers, potentially emptying the accounts. There are lots of possibilities. Maybe you'll get lucky and just get a lifetime of junk snail mail and email. Telephone numbers may go to telemarketing firms that may call endlessly. If it's known you have wealth your home may be targeted for burglary, people with money often have good stuff to take.
Often little more than a copy of a brokerage account statement (like your date of birth and SSN) is all that is needed for a "bad guy" to pretend to be you, open an account at a different brokerage, and then transfer your assets, sell them, and pocket the proceeds.
"Bad guys" generally use banks, merchants, and websites that have weak control systems, they likely are not hard to find.
Often little more than a copy of a brokerage account statement (like your date of birth and SSN) is all that is needed for a "bad guy" to pretend to be you, open an account at a different brokerage, and then transfer your assets, sell them, and pocket the proceeds.
"Bad guys" generally use banks, merchants, and websites that have weak control systems, they likely are not hard to find.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Well, I don't think you need to give out your credit card information here in order to get financial advice. You can definitely use retirement planning software by just putting in fake amounts and no personal information.Bennie wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:45 am Two heads are better than one - and in this case many heads - to think about possible implications...
Why is it best to keep one's net worth and finances private?
I am a very private person and struggle with this question now that I need to share information to get help, from forums, from financial advisors, from retirement planning software containing macros that could send my information to third parties on the internet without my knowledge....etc.
If you don't give authorization to anyone to move funds, what is the worst that can happen if "the worng person" gets a hold of your financial information?
Examples please.
I might be old-school, but I shy away from giving any one entity all of the login/tracking info for all my various financial accounts. Same reason I don't keep a password tracking software for all my passwords. I also don't share net worth info in person, particularly with friends or family. No upside, all downside.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Below is a link to an amusing story of a TV celebrity who published his information in a newspaper in an attempt to make the point that there was no risk to the information being out there.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/ ... msandfraud
(I suppose the moral of this story is that there are always risks you can't see. You shouldn't trust a person or situation merely because it appears not to be risky, you trust because as far as you can tell, the benefits of doing so outweigh any hidden risks there might be. I actually think that, in a way, he was proved right, as under the rules for that type of transfer, he should have been able to get the money back. It was possible for someone to use that mechanism precisely because it was reversible.)
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/ ... msandfraud
(I suppose the moral of this story is that there are always risks you can't see. You shouldn't trust a person or situation merely because it appears not to be risky, you trust because as far as you can tell, the benefits of doing so outweigh any hidden risks there might be. I actually think that, in a way, he was proved right, as under the rules for that type of transfer, he should have been able to get the money back. It was possible for someone to use that mechanism precisely because it was reversible.)
- AnnetteLouisan
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Extortion, kidnapping, lawsuits, burglary, identity theft, charming strangers, envious friends, loan requests, rumors, being charged more, being thought “cheap” and making others who are really nice uncomfortable.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I’m not very fond of the other things, but I am partial to “charming strangers.”AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 am Extortion, kidnapping, lawsuits, burglary, identity theft, charming strangers, envious friends, loan requests, rumors, being charged more, being thought “cheap” and making others who are really nice uncomfortable.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Define information
saying your name, employer, address, account number?
Or saying “what is the best time to take social security, given that I have 2M and 100k expenses”
Most posts on the forum are the latter.
To get advice on a job offer, you don’t have to tell people things like “my new job is to be the senior director of ads sales at Facebook, leading the team in NYC”, you can say “should I accept this job at a megacorp?”
saying your name, employer, address, account number?
Or saying “what is the best time to take social security, given that I have 2M and 100k expenses”
Most posts on the forum are the latter.
To get advice on a job offer, you don’t have to tell people things like “my new job is to be the senior director of ads sales at Facebook, leading the team in NYC”, you can say “should I accept this job at a megacorp?”
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I get the humor here.
BUT, I think it is a really interesting, and valid question. The amount of personal and financial information that gets posted on this anonymous forum amazes me, and I suspect there actually are some real risks that people don't realize. Others may know better, but I wonder how anonymous the forum is and whether there is potential for identification, for those posting a lot of stuff that they think can't be tracked. Risk of losing money is probably low to non-existent, I would guess. I am not aware of any nightmares from over sharing on this board, but will not be overly surprised if it happens.
BUT, I think it is a really interesting, and valid question. The amount of personal and financial information that gets posted on this anonymous forum amazes me, and I suspect there actually are some real risks that people don't realize. Others may know better, but I wonder how anonymous the forum is and whether there is potential for identification, for those posting a lot of stuff that they think can't be tracked. Risk of losing money is probably low to non-existent, I would guess. I am not aware of any nightmares from over sharing on this board, but will not be overly surprised if it happens.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
It’s called I/A (information allocation) which depends on your risk tolerance and should be allocated accordingly. 60/40 is appropriate for most people.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I only disclose on a need-to-know basis or if it benefits me, but I’m also not bothered by it from a safety standpoint. My compensation is publicly reported and otherwise easily estimated by Googling my name, employer, profession. My home’s price can be estimated from comps or public records. Might be harder to know my portfolio balance, I guess.
Pretty sure my SSN is somewhere on the dark web or a bathroom wall.
Pretty sure my SSN is somewhere on the dark web or a bathroom wall.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I recntly tracked down the IRL identity of a frequent poster on this forum when s/he mentioned a specific activity s/he was participating in on a specific date. No malicious intent on my part, just curiosity (or nosiness, if you prefer). Took about 2 minutes.CloseEnough wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:58 am I get the humor here.
BUT, I think it is a really interesting, and valid question. The amount of personal and financial information that gets posted on this anonymous forum amazes me, and I suspect there actually are some real risks that people don't realize. Others may know better, but I wonder how anonymous the forum is and whether there is potential for identification, for those posting a lot of stuff that they think can't be tracked. Risk of losing money is probably low to non-existent, I would guess. I am not aware of any nightmares from over sharing on this board, but will not be overly surprised if it happens.
So I tend to agree that caution is called for.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
- lthenderson
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I think financial advisors need to know these things to do the job you paid them to do. But I find it best not to share this with friends and family. One person’s wealth can do funny things in relationships. People assume that because you have more wealth than they, you should spend it more freely than they do too, or live a different lifestyle as they would do with similar wealth.
I don’t worry about information on public forums where one can be anonymous like this one. I assume a lot of humble bragging or flat out lying goes on here just as it does in public settings. I take everything I read on here with a large grain of salt.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Lying is a form of risk reduction, "humble" bragging perhaps not. As noted above, one "can be" anonymous, but that may be less the case than people think.lthenderson wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:28 pm
I don’t worry about information on public forums where one can be anonymous like this one. I assume a lot of humble bragging or flat out lying goes on here just as it does in public settings. I take everything I read on here with a large grain of salt.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
CloseEnough wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:08 amEspecially if you share Dumas' view "One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not."
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Most of those seem to relate to spreading general knowledge that one is rich, though OP didn't even say they were. But lots of people in the US are generally known to be very well off (not just household names, a person I know was an officer in a public company whose very high compensation had to be disclosed in public filings, though not the CEO and I believe it unlikely anyone here has heard of him) and though they must be more a bit more careful than ordinary people they aren't necessary at hugely elevated risk from that public knowledge. I don't believe stats would bear out for example that kidnapping for ransom is a serious risk for rich people in the US, there have been a few high profiles cases over the decades but it's pretty rare, in contrast to some countries. But say you start with very few people knowing how much you've made (*somebody* usually knows to some degree, managers and payroll dept where one work[ed] for example) and nobody but you knowing the NW it's resulted in (eg. dealing with different fin institutions so no single one has the whole picture). Tell lots of people for no reason? I agree, not a good idea.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 am Extortion, kidnapping, lawsuits, burglary, identity theft, charming strangers, envious friends, loan requests, rumors, being charged more, being thought “cheap” and making others who are really nice uncomfortable.
But otherwise it's going to depend on the 'need to know'. For example I felt some 'gut' discomfort fully disclosing asset totals even to my lawyer working out estate plan. But should I really not have a plan, try to DIY*, or give the lawyer deliberately incorrect information? Whereas when it comes to giving people login information for online accounts, I could see no good reason unless handing over control of one's finances to somebody else, which some people at some point may need to do (cognitive decline) but is really a different topic.
*see 100's of posts on this forum answering every question about tax/estate with 'don't ask questions like that here, consult a professional!'; those posters may get a bit carried away with that idea for questions about general concepts, which it usually is. They'd have a point though if the questioner actually intended to implement other than a very simple plan DIY just using free advice from a web forum.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
If you hide your income and wealth, how will Fisher know to send you fancy mail?
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I have no problem disclosing that I keep my most precious valuables and records in the top drawer under my socks just like everyone else. That way if a burglar does break in, they will go to the place they always look first, the top drawer under the socks, and won't trash the rest of the house looking.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Easy, the WSJ will sell your name to them for pennies.Doctor Rhythm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:35 pm If you hide your income and wealth, how will Fisher know to send you fancy mail?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Best post of the day.Doctor Rhythm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:35 pm If you hide your income and wealth, how will Fisher know to send you fancy mail?
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
- AnnetteLouisan
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I’m not saying lie to your estate planners or anyone else with a legitimate need. At my modest wealth level and looking like a 75k a year copy editor, it’s not a significant issue, except to the extent that I’m more likely to know people who are, or who know people who are, in extremis. But for the mainstream Boglehead of means, there is no reason to think that others will view such information with the same prudence and discretion that they do themselves.JackoC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:08 amMost of those seem to relate to spreading general knowledge that one is rich, though OP didn't even say they were. But lots of people in the US are generally known to be very well off (not just household names, a person I know was an officer in a public company whose very high compensation had to be disclosed in public filings, though not the CEO and I believe it unlikely anyone here has heard of him) and though they must be more a bit more careful than ordinary people they aren't necessary at hugely elevated risk from that public knowledge. I don't believe stats would bear out for example that kidnapping for ransom is a serious risk for rich people in the US, there have been a few high profiles cases over the decades but it's pretty rare, in contrast to some countries. But say you start with very few people knowing how much you've made (*somebody* usually knows to some degree, managers and payroll dept where one work[ed] for example) and nobody but you knowing the NW it's resulted in (eg. dealing with different fin institutions so no single one has the whole picture). Tell lots of people for no reason? I agree, not a good idea.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 am Extortion, kidnapping, lawsuits, burglary, identity theft, charming strangers, envious friends, loan requests, rumors, being charged more, being thought “cheap” and making others who are really nice uncomfortable.
But otherwise it's going to depend on the 'need to know'. For example I felt some 'gut' discomfort fully disclosing asset totals even to my lawyer working out estate plan. But should I really not have a plan, try to DIY*, or give the lawyer deliberately incorrect information? Whereas when it comes to giving people login information for online accounts, I could see no good reason unless handing over control of one's finances to somebody else, which some people at some point may need to do (cognitive decline) but is really a different topic.
*see 100's of posts on this forum answering every question about tax/estate with 'don't ask questions like that here, consult a professional!'; those posters may get a bit carried away with that idea for questions about general concepts, which it usually is. They'd have a point though if the questioner actually intended to implement other than a very simple plan DIY just using free advice from a web forum.
On an anonymous website like BH, I don’t see why assets can’t be listed down to the penny if desired, provided you don’t overdisclose and make yourself identifiable. Security freezes and multifactor authentication can help prevent problems.
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Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I send it back to him in his own postage paid envelope.Stinky wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:25 pmBest post of the day.Doctor Rhythm wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:35 pm If you hide your income and wealth, how will Fisher know to send you fancy mail?
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
Some funny and some interesting posts! Thanks for both!
I am not used to sharing any information, especially about my finances, however great or small they may seem to others. Each bank or retirement account knows how much I have in it and in it alone. That's it. And I like it that way. My net worth is my business.
All of a sudden it's forums, financial advisors, commercial calculators online or in a spreadsheet with marcos on my personal computer....
...whooops! Too fast a change for me!
I feel like I am throwing my information around like confetti all of a sudden.
But I would like to benefit from the experience out there (more than just what I have learned in my little life), so this is need-to know information.
I would not share account access and passwords, but pretty much everything else is needed for calculations. There seem to be different opinions on that being ok to share. I guess if you don't want to share it, then you are on your own with the calculations.
I am not used to sharing any information, especially about my finances, however great or small they may seem to others. Each bank or retirement account knows how much I have in it and in it alone. That's it. And I like it that way. My net worth is my business.
All of a sudden it's forums, financial advisors, commercial calculators online or in a spreadsheet with marcos on my personal computer....
...whooops! Too fast a change for me!
I feel like I am throwing my information around like confetti all of a sudden.
But I would like to benefit from the experience out there (more than just what I have learned in my little life), so this is need-to know information.
I would not share account access and passwords, but pretty much everything else is needed for calculations. There seem to be different opinions on that being ok to share. I guess if you don't want to share it, then you are on your own with the calculations.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
There are plenty of online calculators that don't require registration/login. Just use a VPN if you're paranoid about being tracked.
I just assume whoever wants to know anything about me can find out whatever they want to know if they know how. And they could even if I had tried to avoid creating a digital footprint by refusing to utilize the internet at all ever. It's just the way the world is now.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I think we're agreeing mainly. OP seemed to be talking mainly about cases where the person/institution to whom the info is disclosed has some legitimate need for it, for example OP specifically mentioned financial advisors. I didn't get from the question that it was about disclosing wealth to people in one's social circle, either by bragging about it explicitly or by visible consumption. The former almost always qualifies as boorish behavior IMO, rarely does anyone else want to hear it; the latter can be a more difficult trade off. But there's still a matter of degree, what info/what need when it's disclosed to people with some need to know in a professional capacity. Financial advisor obviously needs close to the whole picture in terms of $'s and allocation to give meaningful advice, doesn't need your account numbers though unless you're giving them control. But to give another example, even as 'warm body' for my LLC's non-recourse real estate loans, banks want applications with lots of detail, sometimes about every member of the LLC though only I have management authority, including statements which show account numbers, though it's non-recourse to those assets. Basically, they have this info in a file because...they're supposed to have it in a file. But it does present some risk to have the info floating around in more banks, 100% of employees of legit banks aren't guaranteed to be legit. This enters my thinking a bit wrt to expanding banking relationships (along with just the trouble of collecting and updating the info which they also require), though I don't worry about the security aspect a huge amount.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:32 pmI’m not saying lie to your estate planners or anyone else with a legitimate need. At my modest wealth level and looking like a 75k a year copy editor, it’s not a significant issue, except to the extent that I’m more likely to know people who are, or who know people who are, in extremis. But for the mainstream Boglehead of means, there is no reason to think that others will view such information with the same prudence and discretion that they do themselves.JackoC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:08 amMost of those seem to relate to spreading general knowledge that one is rich, though OP didn't even say they were.AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:46 am Extortion, kidnapping, lawsuits, burglary, identity theft, charming strangers, envious friends, loan requests, rumors, being charged more, being thought “cheap” and making others who are really nice uncomfortable.
But otherwise it's going to depend on the 'need to know'. For example I felt some 'gut' discomfort fully disclosing asset totals even to my lawyer working out estate plan. But should I really not have a plan, try to DIY*, or give the lawyer deliberately incorrect information? Whereas when it comes to giving people login information for online accounts, I could see no good reason unless handing over control of one's finances to somebody else, which some people at some point may need to do (cognitive decline) but is really a different topic.
On an anonymous website like BH, I don’t see why assets can’t be listed down to the penny if desired, provided you don’t overdisclose and make yourself identifiable. Security freezes and multifactor authentication can help prevent problems.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
When I had a lawyer draw up a trust, they insisted that I give them a list of relevant assets. I found this odd, as the task did not include any estate planning, and I could just attach my own list of assets to the trust. I was uncomfortable with handing over the asset list, but did so anyway.
Re: What actually are the risks of sharing your personal financial information?
I am not a lawyer and there may be reasons they need to know the assets (tax advice, funding the trust, ...??) but as far as I know they do not need the numbers. One can state percentage-wise where everything should go. That's what I have seen a few times.bh1 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:00 pm When I had a lawyer draw up a trust, they insisted that I give them a list of relevant assets. I found this odd, as the task did not include any estate planning, and I could just attach my own list of assets to the trust. I was uncomfortable with handing over the asset list, but did so anyway.
I would not hand it over next time when you feel uncomfortable but ask for an explanation of why they need it and then decide.
Even at that - the point of my post - not sure what could possibly go wrong even if they know the assets. Envy? Bad feelings? Being overcharged? Being looked down on or kept waiting longer, if someone thinks you don't have enough? Things like that, as AnnetteLouisan mentioned maybe?