How to find out if your airplane carry-on are allowed

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gavinsiu
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How to find out if your airplane carry-on are allowed

Post by gavinsiu »

I am taking a UPS home as a carry on and was wondering if the TSA security will give me a hard time. The item does not contain a Lithium battery but a sealed AGM lead acid battery. I did call UPS Battery Center toll free at 1-888-755-7718 and they said that it would not be a problem. However, I wonder if TSA agent will requires proof and that I should provide printed spec of the UPS listing the battery type?

UPDATE
So I figure I changed this thread to how to figure out if you can carry-on an item. There are some obvious items like not bring weapons and firearms, but what about a portable projector or UPS? I am going to post several methods where you can find out and rate their effectiveness.

1. All of the regulatory codes are on the website https://www.ecfr.gov. This is perhaps the most comprehensive source of info. Unless you are a lawyer or work in compliance, this is probably not a good starting point. Even if you read through the code, there are often some ambiguity. For example, the code talks about portable electronics, but does this mean electronic to be use on the go or just electronics small enough to carry?
2. TSA has a page for what can I bring at https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-scr ... ibring/all. The site is a good starting point because it list items A-Z and you can search through them or page through them to see if there is an item similar to the one you are trying to bring onboard.
3. On the same page are links to AskTSA, where you can chat with TSA to see to get an answer through email, sms, twitter, Apple business and Facebook messenger. My advice to you is not to bother because it’s less like a chat but more of an email. You post your question, but instead of linking you to an agent, an agent will send a response about an hour or so later and then disconnect so you can’t follow up. You never get specific answers to your question. The response will always be a link that you could have done using search or they will asked you to call the airline.
4. Chat with the airline. At least with United, this worked out pretty well. I chat with United using their app and then describe the item I am trying to bring on. United agent took a while but gave me a yes or no answer.
5. Post to the Reddit r/TSA group. Within a few hours, I got a response from a TSO (TSA security Officer) who also followed up to further questions.

Keep in mind that even if you follow procedure, you will likely be flagged by security because the item is unusual. Whether you pass or not is still subject to the TSA agent’s discretion. It is suggested that if you do not pass, you can ask for a supervisor.
Last edited by gavinsiu on Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chuck
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Chuck »

I have no idea, but I have to say I love the variety of questions on this forum.
raisinsaregrapes
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by raisinsaregrapes »

I would check with the airline and check it.
Lastrun
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Lastrun »

I can only tell you anecdotally my experiences flying domestically and internationally a fair bit over the last 24 months.

First, they do NOT want batteries in the cargo area (checked luggage), and they do not like the suitcases with the batteries built-in. They will make frequent announcements about these, particularly when they are forced to gate check items either because of a small plane, or a very full plane.

On the TSA side, I just run everything through the scanners and have not been pulled yet. I have not taken electronics out of my carry-on for a couple of years now.

Perhaps this will help. https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/res ... teries.pdf

It has pictures which is helpful for me. 8-)
tibbitts
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by tibbitts »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:25 am I am taking a UPS home as a carry on and was wondering if the TSA security will give me a hard time. The item does not contain a Lithium battery but a sealed AGM lead acid battery. I did call UPS Battery Center toll free at 1-888-755-7718 and they said that it would not be a problem. However, I wonder if TSA agent will requires proof and that I should provide printed spec of the UPS listing the battery type?
Isn't the regulation for this size (capacity) dependent? Does your battery fall within the acceptable capacity?
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gavinsiu
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

Lastrun wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:52 am I can only tell you anecdotally my experiences flying domestically and internationally a fair bit over the last 24 months.

First, they do NOT want batteries in the cargo area (checked luggage), and they do not like the suitcases with the batteries built-in. They will make frequent announcements about these, particularly when they are forced to gate check items either because of a small plane, or a very full plane.

On the TSA side, I just run everything through the scanners and have not been pulled yet. I have not taken electronics out of my carry-on for a couple of years now.

Perhaps this will help. https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/res ... teries.pdf

It has pictures which is helpful for me. 8-)
It would look like this:
https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/BN450 ... s-2-surge/

The battery is 12V x 5 A = 60 Wh which would be less than the 100 Wh limit. I could just print out your pdf and the battery spec?
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by adamthesmythe »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:09 am
gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:25 am I am taking a UPS home as a carry on and was wondering if the TSA security will give me a hard time. The item does not contain a Lithium battery but a sealed AGM lead acid battery. I did call UPS Battery Center toll free at 1-888-755-7718 and they said that it would not be a problem. However, I wonder if TSA agent will requires proof and that I should provide printed spec of the UPS listing the battery type?
Isn't the regulation for this size (capacity) dependent? Does your battery fall within the acceptable capacity?
The capacity limit, and the concern about batteries, exists because lithium-ion batteries can spontaneously burn. Lead-acid batteries don't catch fire. They do contain acid however which probably qualifies as a corrosive material.

However- I'm curious why it makes sense to take a UPS on a trip by air.
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mrmass
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by mrmass »

A 55 dollar device. Why chance they take it away from you. I'd buy a new one.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by rk6 »

I would just ship it separately, rather than get into a likely fruitless discussion with a TSA agent about Li vs other battery types, watt-hour limits, or corrosive materials. Why give yourself something else to worry about when flying these days?

Or, if it really is a ~$50 product, give it to someone where you are and buy a new one when you get home.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

It's an old UPS that I am replacing at my mom's house. The battery used to last about 2 hours but now dies at around 10 minutes. My plan was to take it home and hook my ethernet hub to it. For some reason, there are a lot of brownouts in my area so I should be able to use it to solve that issue. Note that the router has its own UPS and the computer is a laptop. However, the hub goes out briefly if there is a brown out.

I tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use.
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Jimbo Moneybags
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

Why risk an issue with TSA who may not understand the rules any better than you do? You could find they confiscate and dispose of the entire UPS and you could even be subject to secondary screening and potential delays in getting to your gate.

Personally, I would recommend you just buy a replacement battery for your mom's UPS, have it shipped to her, and install it when you visit. Recycle her old battery before you fly home. Depending on the brand and model of her existing UPS, a new battery may run as little as $20 for a Mighty Max ordered online. (If the UPS is actually the APC Back-Ups 450 you linked, a new battery is just $21.99 shipped).

If you need a UPS for your hub, just buy your own.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by tibbitts »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:35 am It's an old UPS that I am replacing at my mom's house. The battery used to last about 2 hours but now dies at around 10 minutes. My plan was to take it home and hook my ethernet hub to it. For some reason, there are a lot of brownouts in my area so I should be able to use it to solve that issue. Note that the router has its own UPS and the computer is a laptop. However, the hub goes out briefly if there is a brown out.

I tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use.
So your only concern is that the UPS and/or battery can't be recycled? I have no idea what happens when I drop off electronics or batteries for recycling but honestly just assume that something less than awful will occur.
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gavinsiu
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:10 pm So your only concern is that the UPS and/or battery can't be recycled? I have no idea what happens when I drop off electronics or batteries for recycling but honestly just assume that something less than awful will occur.

No it’s killing two birds with one stone. I also avoid upgrading unless there is an actual need.
GettingComfortable
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by GettingComfortable »

Recycle the batteries locally, then buy new lower-cost ones on eBay. Been doing this for decades. Scrap yard even pays a little cash for the old LA batteries.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by ScubaHogg »

raisinsaregrapes wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:49 am I would check with the airline and check it.
They want you to carry your lithium batteries, not check them
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tibbitts
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by tibbitts »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 3:02 pm
tibbitts wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:10 pm So your only concern is that the UPS and/or battery can't be recycled? I have no idea what happens when I drop off electronics or batteries for recycling but honestly just assume that something less than awful will occur.

No it’s killing two birds with one stone. I also avoid upgrading unless there is an actual need.
For me a loss of 90% of battery capacity would constitute an "actual need." I might travel with the UPS but would drop the battery off for recycling and thus avoid any potential issue.
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gavinsiu
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:24 pm For me a loss of 90% of battery capacity would constitute an "actual need." I might travel with the UPS but would drop the battery off for recycling and thus avoid any potential issue.
I just need it to cover a brownout which at most a few seconds.

I figure I will give it a try and see what happens. If tsa tells me that it must go then I can throw omit in the trash.
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Jimbo Moneybags
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:32 pm
tibbitts wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:24 pm For me a loss of 90% of battery capacity would constitute an "actual need." I might travel with the UPS but would drop the battery off for recycling and thus avoid any potential issue.
I just need it to cover a brownout which at most a few seconds.

I figure I will give it a try and see what happens. If tsa tells me that it must go then I can throw omit in the trash.
Have you read, and do you fully understand, the FAA regulations on the carrying of such items and what special packaging and protection may be required?

If not, that's a very odd approach for someone who "tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use." Instead of just buying your mom a $20-$25 battery and dropping off her old battery for recycling, you plan to "try" to carry her old UPS and battery onto your flight and are prepared to just throw it all in the trash at the airport checkpoint if TSA says "no way". Seems rather imprudent to me.

But if you decide to "give it a try", be aware that once you bring an item through the checkpoint that may be prohibited (particularly something like what you plan to carry-on) and it triggers an alarm, just tossing it in the trash and going on your merry way may no longer be an option. Carrying a prohibited item may delay you and other passengers and you could be fined (I believe it can be $10k or more).

All of this to save $20-$25??? :oops:

I wouldn't do it, but I may be more risk averse than you...good luck.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:57 pm Have you read, and do you fully understand, the FAA regulations on the carrying of such items and what special packaging and protection may be required?

If not, that's a very odd approach for someone who "tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use." Instead of just buying your mom a $20-$25 battery and dropping off her old battery for recycling, you plan to "try" to carry her old UPS and battery onto your flight and are prepared to just throw it all in the trash at the airport checkpoint if TSA says "no way". Seems rather imprudent to me.

But if you decide to "give it a try", be aware that once you bring an item through the checkpoint that may be prohibited (particularly something like what you plan to carry-on) and it triggers an alarm, just throwing it away and going on your merry way may no longer be an option. Carrying a prohibited item may delay you and other passengers and you could be fined (I believe it can be $10k or more).

All of this to save $20-$25??? :oops:

I wouldn't do it, but I may be more risk averse than you...good luck.
If you read through my posts I have. I have

1. Contact tsa and verify that this is ok.
2. Reviewed faa rules and the pulled up the battery spec and verified that it passes the rule

The only reason if I fail tsa check is if security fail to follow the rules.
increment
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by increment »

Have you asked your airline? They could have rules beyond the government's.

Also, if on the day a TSA or an airline employee decides that you won't be carrying it on, you should not count on getting your way just because you looked up the rules ahead of time.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by bradinsky »

mrmass wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 am A 55 dollar device. Why chance they take it away from you. I'd buy a new one.
+1 Absolutely
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by rob »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 pm If you read through my posts I have. I have

1. Contact tsa and verify that this is ok.
2. Reviewed faa rules and the pulled up the battery spec and verified that it passes the rule

The only reason if I fail tsa check is if security fail to follow the rules.
LOL - A TSA agent not knowing or following published rules.... a.k.a. Tuesday. I think your almost no chance even if you print the rules to show them.
| Rob | Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
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gavinsiu
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

bradinsky wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:35 pm
mrmass wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 am A 55 dollar device. Why chance they take it away from you. I'd buy a new one.
+1 Absolutely
Well look at it this way I want to take this back. It’s not worth shipping. I could take out the battery, but I don’t have my tools and don’t know for sure if it will survive disassembly. Even if I manage to take out the battery, tsa might still make a fuss. I would either need to junk it or take it to the airport and they will either let me take it on board or junk it.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by lostcoast2023 »

I checked a UPS on an Alaska Airlines flight several years ago. No issues with TSA. It is still in use at the new location.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by BuddyJet »

I have flown domestically with a ups or bare sealed lead acid batteries many times as carryon. TSA has offen checked the bag but never an issue.
People say nothing is impossible. I do nothing all day.
GettingComfortable
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by GettingComfortable »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:08 pm I could take out the battery, but I don’t have my tools and don’t know for sure if it will survive disassembly.
What is the make (e.g., APC) and model? Their smaller ones require no tools to replace the battery. But does required basic/common sense, for safety.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:08 pm
bradinsky wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:35 pm
mrmass wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:05 am A 55 dollar device. Why chance they take it away from you. I'd buy a new one.
+1 Absolutely
Well look at it this way I want to take this back. It’s not worth shipping. I could take out the battery, but I don’t have my tools and don’t know for sure if it will survive disassembly. Even if I manage to take out the battery, tsa might still make a fuss. I would either need to junk it or take it to the airport and they will either let me take it on board or junk it.
May I ask how you intend to package it to comply with FAA regulations?
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by retiringwhen »

Sometimes it makes sense to bring odd stuff on a plane.

I once brought a fancy spoke wheel hubcap for a 1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass as my carry on! It did get a few odd looks. But this was in the 1980s, different security then!
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:29 pm May I ask how you intend to package it to comply with FAA regulations?
It’s small enough that I can stuff it into my carry on. I have brought computer parts in the past without issues. Most likely there will be no issues. If there is, I plan to docs with relevant passage circled.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

gavinsiu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:45 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:29 pm May I ask how you intend to package it to comply with FAA regulations?
It’s small enough that I can stuff it into my carry on. I have brought computer parts in the past without issues. Most likely there will be no issues. If there is, I plan to docs with relevant passage circled.
So how will you prevent accidental activation of the UPS if you don't/can't remove the battery and/or insulate the terminals? (Did you actually read and understand the FAA regulations?)
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by retiringwhen »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:58 pm
gavinsiu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:45 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:29 pm May I ask how you intend to package it to comply with FAA regulations?
It’s small enough that I can stuff it into my carry on. I have brought computer parts in the past without issues. Most likely there will be no issues. If there is, I plan to docs with relevant passage circled.
So how will you prevent accidental activation of the UPS if you don't/can't remove the battery and/or insulate the terminals? (Did you actually read and understand the FAA regulations?)
the OP could just use the plastic covers that come on a new battery. They comply with regulations. If he doesn’t have them laying around, just buy a new battery for the UPS (that would make it last longer too!) and he as the isolation covers. Of course, then there may be no need to bring it home.
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Jimbo Moneybags
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

retiringwhen wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 2:31 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:58 pm
gavinsiu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:45 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:29 pm May I ask how you intend to package it to comply with FAA regulations?
It’s small enough that I can stuff it into my carry on. I have brought computer parts in the past without issues. Most likely there will be no issues. If there is, I plan to docs with relevant passage circled.
So how will you prevent accidental activation of the UPS if you don't/can't remove the battery and/or insulate the terminals? (Did you actually read and understand the FAA regulations?)
the OP could just use the plastic covers that come on a new battery. They comply with regulations. If he doesn’t have them laying around, just buy a new battery for the UPS (that would make it last longer too!) and he as the isolation covers. Of course, then there may be no need to bring it home.
Sure except OP stated he doesn't intend to disassemble it or attempt to remove the battery. That's why I asked how he plans to package it to comply with FAA regulations. Otherwise, he could just buy and install a replacement battery for his mom and recycle her old battery when he visits and avoid all of this.

And since OP and his mother are both in California, his plan to simply discard the UPS and/or battery in the trash (junk-it) if he cannot take it on the plane will run afoul of California's E-Waste laws which make doing so a crime. :shock: While he might get away with getting an improperly packaged UPS past TSA or throwing it away in the trash if they won't let him carry it onboard, the risks just aren't worth it IMO.

But OP appears very committed to his plan of action despite some of the suggestions offered, so perhaps this is all just an academic exercise.
Last edited by Jimbo Moneybags on Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by jebmke »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:04 pm And since OP and his mother are both in California, his plan to simply discard the UPS and/or battery in the trash (junk-it) if he cannot take it on the plane will run afoul of California's E-Waste laws which make doing so a crime.
That would be unfortunate and unnecessary. It is so easy to recycle these at Staples. They will even take the lead-acid batteries which are often difficult to dispose of through typical electronics recycling programs. I've done this a couple times. By the time the battery goes, the electronics are pretty old and if the UPS has cycled through any power surges, the built-in surge protection may be substandard.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

I am not understanding why various people wants me to package up the UPS. It's not the type of unit where you can pull out the battery. The battery is inside the unit and requires quite a bit of assembly to get at the battery. Most UPS of this type typically have a disconnect switch to disconnect the battery for transport. The battery is inside the unit and is a sealed non-agm unit. Because it's inside the unit and disconnected. It's not like there are loose batteries that can connect and short each other. If I wrap up the UPS, won't TSA want to rip it up to inspect the package.

I am actually compliant by FAA rule to the best of my knowledge, so the only issue will be TSA agent not knowing the rules. It's not that I don't want to listen to anyone, it is that I haven't heard evidence that this is going to be an issue. What I want to hear is experience of people being stopped or not stopped due to having a UPS, but I haven't heard on this thread that a lot of people on this thread being stopped. A peek at the flyertalk forum does not show anyone being stopped for a UPS either other than being checked for explosives.

As for recycling at Staples. Is this something that is possible in CA or something? When I ask Staples in IL, I was told that they do not do electronic recycling, so I had to drop stuff off at Best Buy. Perhaps only selective Staples location recycle or perhaps they are required to do so in CA.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by tev9876 »

It is illogical to not take an item on an aircraft that complies with FAA and TSA regulations because a poorly trained screener may reject it. With that logic you should not take a 3 ounce bottle of shampoo, a phone charger, phone, laptop, or even a suitcase itself in case someone decides they don't want to let it on the plane. As dysfunctional as the TSA is, there are procedures to escalate. If they give you a hassle, just ask for a supervisor. They should be able to check any regulation, especially as it is clearly published by the FAA online.

I have not carried a UPS, but it is likely to trigger a baggage check so give yourself some extra time at the checkpoint. Good chance they will swab it for explosives, so don't pack your bag after lighting off your holiday fireworks or use the bag you take to the gun range all the time.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by retiringwhen »

gavinsiu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:42 pm It's not the type of unit where you can pull out the battery. The battery is inside the unit and requires quite a bit of assembly to get at the battery.
Look on youtube for a video on how to replace the battery in the UPS you have. I bet there is at least one video on how to do this for your model. APC and others are to trying to trick consumers into replacing the whole unit by making it look like it is not user replaceable, but I assure they are. I have done it now with several of the very low end APC units and it was as easy as removing four screws using a long screwdriver. The inside wires are less bundled so disassembly/assembly is a few seconds longer.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by jebmke »

retiringwhen wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:37 am
gavinsiu wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:42 pm It's not the type of unit where you can pull out the battery. The battery is inside the unit and requires quite a bit of assembly to get at the battery.
Look on youtube for a video on how to replace the battery in the UPS you have. I bet there is at least one video on how to do this for your model. APC and others are to trying to trick consumers into replacing the whole unit by making it look like it is not user replaceable, but I assure they are. I have done it now with several of the very low end APC units and it was as easy as removing four screws using a long screwdriver. The inside wires are less bundled so disassembly/assembly is a few seconds longer.
I've pulled the batteries from both APC and Cyber low end units. You are correct, some are a bit less obvious on what to do just looking at the box itself. The user docs online typically have the info. It took me less than a minute to pull the lead-acid on the last unit I recycled.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

tev9876 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:31 am It is illogical to not take an item on an aircraft that complies with FAA and TSA regulations because a poorly trained screener may reject it. With that logic you should not take a 3 ounce bottle of shampoo, a phone charger, phone, laptop, or even a suitcase itself in case someone decides they don't want to let it on the plane. As dysfunctional as the TSA is, there are procedures to escalate. If they give you a hassle, just ask for a supervisor. They should be able to check any regulation, especially as it is clearly published by the FAA online.

I have not carried a UPS, but it is likely to trigger a baggage check so give yourself some extra time at the checkpoint. Good chance they will swab it for explosives, so don't pack your bag after lighting off your holiday fireworks or use the bag you take to the gun range all the time.
Agree. And that "clearly published" regulation requires that a device such as the OP intends to carry-on be packaged and protected to prevent accidental activation, the evolution of heating and/or damage to the battery terminals. If OP thinks that the UPS has a "disconnect switch" to disconnect the battery for transport and that the battery is inside the unit "and disconnected", he needs to check again. Most (if not all) consumer-grade UPS devices have a single use battery insulating "pull tab" disconnect. Once it is pulled by the initial purchaser, it can't be used again and the only way to disconnect the battery is to manually remove the leads from the terminals.

That's why I asked twice how OP intends to package the UPS or protect it to prevent accidental activation. It appears from his responses that OP has either not read, or doesn't understand, the FAA regulations that apply. OP says he plans to just "stuff it into my carry on." OP wants "evidence" that doing so is going to be an issue. The "evidence" consists of the applicable FAA regulations (and California E-Waste disposal laws). Either OP will be fully compliant and won't have an issue or he won't be compliant and risks all sorts of consequences.

Next thread: "Help! Got fined $xxxx by TSA at the airport for trying to bring a UPS on the airplane and then got fined $xxxx by the police for throwing it in a trash can even though TSA wouldn't let me take it on board. How do I fight the fines? I followed all the rules, it was the TSA and the police that didn't understand them."
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gavinsiu
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

tev9876 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:31 am It is illogical to not take an item on an aircraft that complies with FAA and TSA regulations because a poorly trained screener may reject it. With that logic you should not take a 3 ounce bottle of shampoo, a phone charger, phone, laptop, or even a suitcase itself in case someone decides they don't want to let it on the plane. As dysfunctional as the TSA is, there are procedures to escalate. If they give you a hassle, just ask for a supervisor. They should be able to check any regulation, especially as it is clearly published by the FAA online.

I have not carried a UPS, but it is likely to trigger a baggage check so give yourself some extra time at the checkpoint. Good chance they will swab it for explosives, so don't pack your bag after lighting off your holiday fireworks or use the bag you take to the gun range all the time.
I understand the TSA is supposed to follow regulations. I have verified that the device compiled with TSA''s rule that the lead battery be less than 100 Watt in capacity and is sealed and is 12 volt. Links are on the various post, but

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/res ... teries.pdf - the last entry indicate battery in equipment is allowed to be carry on as long as its 12 volt and under 100 watt. I am not sure why various poster have indicate that I failed to follow FAA regulation without citing the actual passage.

Yes, this might get flag during inspection, but I get flagged any way sometimes. The last time, it was the kids chocolate because a bag of chocolate ball that apparently looks suspicious under the scanner. The other time was the hard drive that I needed to carry.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

retiringwhen wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:37 am Look on youtube for a video on how to replace the battery in the UPS you have. I bet there is at least one video on how to do this for your model. APC and others are to trying to trick consumers into replacing the whole unit by making it look like it is not user replaceable, but I assure they are. I have done it now with several of the very low end APC units and it was as easy as removing four screws using a long screwdriver. The inside wires are less bundled so disassembly/assembly is a few seconds longer.
Thanks, I have watch the youtube video of disassembly. IT is indeed 4 screws and a screw driver. The tricky part is the circuit board position.

Let me ask this then. If I remove the battery, wouldn't a TSA agent just be as likely to flag me as before. Wouldn't I need to take apart the unit to show that it has no battery?
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:58 am Agree. And that "clearly published" regulation requires that a device such as the OP intends to carry-on be packaged and protected to prevent accidental activation, the evolution of heating and/or damage to the battery terminals. If OP thinks that the UPS has a "disconnect switch" to disconnect the battery for transport and that the battery is inside the unit "and disconnected", he needs to check again. Most (if not all) consumer-grade UPS devices have a single use battery insulating "pull tab" disconnect. Once it is pulled by the initial purchaser, it can't be used again and the only way to disconnect the battery is to manually remove the leads from the terminals.

That's why I asked twice how OP intends to package the UPS or protect it to prevent accidental activation. It appears from his responses that OP has either not read, or doesn't understand, the FAA regulations that apply. OP says he plans to just "stuff it into my carry on." OP wants "evidence" that doing so is going to be an issue. The "evidence" consists of the applicable FAA regulations (and California E-Waste disposal laws). Either OP will be fully compliant and won't have an issue or he won't be compliant and risks all sorts of consequences.

Next thread: "Help! Got fined $xxxx by TSA at the airport for trying to bring a UPS on the airplane and then got fined $xxxx by the police for throwing it in a trash can even though TSA wouldn't let me take it on board. How do I fight the fines? I followed all the rules, it was the TSA and the police that didn't understand them."
By this link
https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/res ... teries.pdf

The last entry on the pdf states that a lead acid battery 12v and under 100watt can be carry on in equipment. Can you please explain why I am not following FAA regulation? This is not criticism, I just want to know I missed something.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by retiringwhen »

gavinsiu wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:26 am Let me ask this then. If I remove the battery, wouldn't a TSA agent just be as likely to flag me as before. Wouldn't I need to take apart the unit to show that it has no battery?
Just leave it unassembled and open it up to show him the battery is missing. I think you'll get flagged for additional screening regardless of the state of the UPS. Things that size with wires will show up on the X-ray. Someone should be interested.

My wife brought a bare hard drive on the plane back in the late '80s (fasted data transfer rate at the time :twisted: ) and the screening agent wanted her to "turn it on'. It took a while to explain that it had no power source :-)
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

See 49 CFR 175.10 and 49 CFR 173.159. You have a non-spillable battery, not a dry cell. Not only is the battery limited to 12v and no more than 100Wh, but the battery and device must also conform to 49 USC 173.159(a)(d). That section provides:
Non-spillable batteries are excepted from all other requirements of this subchapter when offered for transportation and transported in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section and the following:

(1) At a temperature of 55 °C (131 °F), the battery must not contain any unabsorbed free-flowing liquid, and must be designed so that electrolyte will not flow from a ruptured or cracked case; and

(2) For transport by aircraft, when contained in a battery-powered device, equipment or vehicle must be prepared and packaged for transport in a manner to prevent unintentional activation in conformance with § 173.159(b)(2) of this Subpart.


(3) For transport by aircraft, must be transported as cargo and may not be carried onboard an aircraft by passengers or crewmembers in carry-on baggage, checked baggage, or on their person unless specifically excepted by § 175.10.
Again, I suspect you did not actually read, or you didn't understand, the applicable FAA regulations.

Why not just avoid all of this by replacing the battery in your mom's UPS when you get to her house? Then if you want a UPS for your hub, just buy one.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

retiringwhen wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:32 am Just leave it unassembled and open it up to show him the battery is missing. I think you'll get flagged for additional screening regardless of the state of the UPS. Things that size with wires will show up on the X-ray. Someone should be interested.

My wife brought a bare hard drive on the plane back in the late '80s (fasted data transfer rate at the time :twisted: ) and the screening agent wanted her to "turn it on'. It took a while to explain that it had no power source :-)
The same thing happened to me too. The TSA rep informed asked me to turn on my hard drive and I had to explain to them why this cannot be done. This was a while back. I notice TSA no longer ask people to turn on their devices. They just want it out so they can scan it.

I recall on another trip, I noticed another flyer got flagged for his cylinder shape USB drive. H
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by gavinsiu »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:36 am See 49 CFR 175.10 and 49 CFR 173.159. You have a non-spillable battery, not a dry cell. Not only is the battery limited to 12v and no more than 100Wh, but the battery and device must also conform to 49 USC 173.159(a)(d). That section provides:
Non-spillable batteries are excepted from all other requirements of this subchapter when offered for transportation and transported in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section and the following:

(1) At a temperature of 55 °C (131 °F), the battery must not contain any unabsorbed free-flowing liquid, and must be designed so that electrolyte will not flow from a ruptured or cracked case; and

(2) For transport by aircraft, when contained in a battery-powered device, equipment or vehicle must be prepared and packaged for transport in a manner to prevent unintentional activation in conformance with § 173.159(b)(2) of this Subpart.


(3) For transport by aircraft, must be transported as cargo and may not be carried onboard an aircraft by passengers or crewmembers in carry-on baggage, checked baggage, or on their person unless specifically excepted by § 175.10.
Again, I suspect you did not actually read, or you didn't understand, the applicable FAA regulations.

Why not just avoid all of this by replacing the battery in your mom's UPS when you get to her house? Then if you want a UPS for your hub, just buy one.
Thank you I will investigate further.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

gavinsiu wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:05 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:36 am See 49 CFR 175.10 and 49 CFR 173.159. You have a non-spillable battery, not a dry cell. Not only is the battery limited to 12v and no more than 100Wh, but the battery and device must also conform to 49 USC 173.159(a)(d). That section provides:
Non-spillable batteries are excepted from all other requirements of this subchapter when offered for transportation and transported in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section and the following:

(1) At a temperature of 55 °C (131 °F), the battery must not contain any unabsorbed free-flowing liquid, and must be designed so that electrolyte will not flow from a ruptured or cracked case; and

(2) For transport by aircraft, when contained in a battery-powered device, equipment or vehicle must be prepared and packaged for transport in a manner to prevent unintentional activation in conformance with § 173.159(b)(2) of this Subpart.


(3) For transport by aircraft, must be transported as cargo and may not be carried onboard an aircraft by passengers or crewmembers in carry-on baggage, checked baggage, or on their person unless specifically excepted by § 175.10.
Again, I suspect you did not actually read, or you didn't understand, the applicable FAA regulations.

Why not just avoid all of this by replacing the battery in your mom's UPS when you get to her house? Then if you want a UPS for your hub, just buy one.
Thank you I will investigate further.
Part of the confusion may be the language "portable electronic device" or "personal electronic device" on the flyer you linked. Note the italicized text in the last entry you referenced..."Note: This exception is for portable electronic devices...". I don't believe that a UPS will qualify as such as a UPS is an electrical device, not an electronic device. When the FAA references electronic devices containing batteries being allowed in carry-on and checked baggage, they specifically list examples such as: cell phones, smart phones, data loggers, PDAs, electronic games, tablets, laptop computers, cameras, camcorders, watches, calculators and further note that the exception covers typical dry cell batteries and lithium metal and lithium ion batteries for consumer electronics (AA, AAA, C, D, button cell, camera batteries, laptop batteries).

I'm not sure that your continued investment of time is worth the $20-$25 you will save if you successfully transport the UPS and old battery home, but that is up to you. Good luck.
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by jebmke »

Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:21 pm I'm not sure that your continued investment of time is worth the $20-$25 you will save if you successfully transport the UPS and old battery home, but that is up to you. Good luck.
At the end, it would be nice to see an accounting. Dollar savings/total time invested = effective hourly wage
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

jebmke wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:25 pm
Jimbo Moneybags wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:21 pm I'm not sure that your continued investment of time is worth the $20-$25 you will save if you successfully transport the UPS and old battery home, but that is up to you. Good luck.
At the end, it would be nice to see an accounting. Dollar savings/total time invested = effective hourly wage
I don't know about the OP, but I'm significantly overdrawn on this thread. A negative hourly wage! :sharebeer
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by EHEngineer »

gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:35 am It's an old UPS that I am replacing at my mom's house. The battery used to last about 2 hours but now dies at around 10 minutes. My plan was to take it home and hook my ethernet hub to it. For some reason, there are a lot of brownouts in my area so I should be able to use it to solve that issue. Note that the router has its own UPS and the computer is a laptop. However, the hub goes out briefly if there is a brown out.

I tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use.
Instead of replacing, daisy chain your mom's UPS's. Plug new one into old one, old one plugged into wall. Get 2 hrs 10 minutes UPS time.
Or, you can ... decline to let me, a stranger on the Internet, egg you on to an exercise in time-wasting, and you could say "I'm probably OK and I don't care about it that much." -Nisiprius
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Re: Transporting a UPS on an airplane

Post by Jimbo Moneybags »

EHEngineer wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:03 pm
gavinsiu wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:35 am It's an old UPS that I am replacing at my mom's house. The battery used to last about 2 hours but now dies at around 10 minutes. My plan was to take it home and hook my ethernet hub to it. For some reason, there are a lot of brownouts in my area so I should be able to use it to solve that issue. Note that the router has its own UPS and the computer is a laptop. However, the hub goes out briefly if there is a brown out.

I tried not to dispose of equipment unless there is no longer any use.
Instead of replacing, daisy chain your mom's UPS's. Plug new one into old one, old one plugged into wall. Get 2 hrs 10 minutes UPS time.
Is that now safe/recommended? I know in the past that UPS manufacturers have specifically cautioned against connecting a UPS or surge protector to another UPS, but it has been a number of years since I purchased a new one (I just replace the batteries as needed).
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