Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

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rich126
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by rich126 »

bberris wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:57 am
sunsetting101 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:35 am If a friend were to recant a story of their vacation, I would much rather hear about their pickpocket story than visiting museum x. Add a little chase scene and I'm all ears.
Then maybe this one is for you.

A few weeks ago in Palermo, a guy bumped me twice walking on the sidewalk and unzipped the fanny pack, but didn't find anything of value to him, or maybe he just left because I was looking at him. Later that same day, two guys on a motorbike tried to take my phone out of my hand, but I held on.
Fighting back is the natural instinct but I recall reading a blogger was in a country and felt something and instinctively resisted and the guy had a knife and cut his hand. Fortunately not severely but enough to get stitches in the local hospital. Most of the time crime is not violent but sometimes it can go in a bad way.
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Nicolas
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Nicolas »

Put a decoy wallet in your back pocket. The thief will take it and be on his/her way. Your real wallet secured elsewhere. Better bring several for repeated use. You can probably pick up a few cheap at your local Goodwill store.
FlamePoint
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by FlamePoint »

As a women, I carry a crossbody bag I bought off Amazon that has locking zippers and a strap that includes wires inside (can’t be easily cut). I carry minimal cash, and one credit card. Separate credit card is left in safe at hotel with passport.

If I need a larger bag for a day out I carry a crossbody backpack. Important stuff is tucked deep inside.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

If I felt that I had to be that vigilant when I traveled I wouldn't travel. It doesn't sound like fun at all.
IMHO sometimes you just have to let go, and roll with the punches.

Simple precautions are one thing. If you wear your cell phone or a fat wallet in a back pocket, whether in Spain, the USA or just about anywhere, it is like wearing a sign that says "Rob me, please!" So wear cargo pants (or shorts) with deep zippable pockets for your valuables, or some such thing. I doubt if anybody will unzip your pocket to get your wallet. An opportunistic thief will almost always go for low hanging fruit.

Take reasonable easy precautions. No conspicuous consumption. If you can, keep a spare credit card somewhere not on your person, and a spare old cell phone too if possible. You won't be responsible for credit card fraud anyway if you report it stolen. If you get your camera stolen anyway, make sure it's not one that will force you to postpone your retirement to pay for it .

But mostly...you are in a beautiful place.....enjoy it. Don't worry....be happy.
Last edited by protagonist on Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

Nicolas wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:46 pm Put a decoy wallet in your back pocket. The thief will take it and be on his/her way. Your real wallet secured elsewhere. Better bring several for repeated use. You can probably pick up a few cheap at your local Goodwill store.
That's a good idea. Simple precaution that will keep you from constantly looking over your shoulder. Maybe I will do this in Paris this year. Thanks.
Oreamnos
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Oreamnos »

Consider one of the pacsafe anti-theft bags for when you're out and about. I've got a slightly larger version of something like this, and just used it for a couple of weeks in Paris & London:

https://pacsafe.com/collections/crossbo ... sbody-bag

Anything of any value that I carried was safely in the bag throughout the day. And with the omnipresent use of contactless pay in Europe, I never once during this trip had to pull out any cash or coins or credit cards. Paid for literally everything (except at one hotel, which needed credit card) via my Apple Watch. Brilliant, secure, convenient, and fantastic.
Cruise
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Cruise »

Great thread, which I will bookmark and study as my trip next year to the Middle East and Europe approaches,. Never heard of ScoteVest. They seem to have some nice things.

I remember when I used to worry about pickpockets, but that was a long time ago. Most recently, we have been traveling to Japan, a delightful country in which street crime against tourists and citizens alike is very rare.
bberris
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by bberris »

rich126 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:06 pm
bberris wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:57 am
sunsetting101 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:35 am If a friend were to recant a story of their vacation, I would much rather hear about their pickpocket story than visiting museum x. Add a little chase scene and I'm all ears.
Then maybe this one is for you.

A few weeks ago in Palermo, a guy bumped me twice walking on the sidewalk and unzipped the fanny pack, but didn't find anything of value to him, or maybe he just left because I was looking at him. Later that same day, two guys on a motorbike tried to take my phone out of my hand, but I held on.
Fighting back is the natural instinct but I recall reading a blogger was in a country and felt something and instinctively resisted and the guy had a knife and cut his hand. Fortunately not severely but enough to get stitches in the local hospital. Most of the time crime is not violent but sometimes it can go in a bad way.
I didn't fight, never would, and I would lose. Maybe go to a Sicilian prison. I don't consider holding on to your stuff to be fighting back.
hunoraut
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by hunoraut »

bberris wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:57 am Then maybe this one is for you.

A few weeks ago in Palermo, a guy bumped me twice walking on the sidewalk and unzipped the fanny pack, but didn't find anything of value to him, or maybe he just left because I was looking at him. Later that same day, two guys on a motorbike tried to take my phone out of my hand, but I held on.
Long time ago I was backpacking with a friend who was otherwise intelligent, but not street smart enough to ward off solicitors who clearly had no beneficial motive. i.e. heavily accented strangers who approach with "my friend! where are you from?". Instead of abruptly and sternly rebuffing them, he could only slowly disengage in a coy manner.

Something was bound to happen.

In Russia, late at night and while drunk, he accepted a taxi ride offer from unmarked car and jumped in it (against my private warning). I had to come with, and in between their typical loud tourist-taxi conversation, I softly and repeatedly instructed him to bolt as soon as the car came to a stop.

At the stop, I bolted out and away. My friend gingerly exited the car, as did the driver, who walked around to him with "how heavy are you? you are big american. i can lift you! ha! ha!". Driver grabbed him with a bear hug, 'playfully' lifted up off the ground a few times, while my friend laughed. I'm standing a few meters away slightly annoyed. My friend even thanked him for the ride. And when the driver drove off... he discovered his wallet was gone.

:sharebeer
gavinsiu
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by gavinsiu »

In Rome, I worn a hanging pouch underneath my shirt and a bag that has to be open to access the contents with a embedded steel cable so it can’t be cut. In addition we avoid riding crowded buses. This seemed to have worked. We did not get pickpocket but other people we talk to did.
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HipCoyote
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by HipCoyote »

I carry a second wallet in my back pocket a few euro and some bogus credit cards that I get with mailers or old used up gift cards. I am also a fan of PacSafe products which are very difficult to commit a theft. I’ve been in massive crowds (Carnivale in Italy) and had no worries or attempts that I know of.

I’ve carried a passport pouch under my shirt as well. Scan and send copies of passports to yourself.

Situational awareness. Unless I’m in a situation where I can’t avoid it I do not allow people to get that close to me. But my luck may run out someday!
BoatyMcB
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by BoatyMcB »

On my last trip overseas, I had to remove my belt to go through security.
Guess what I felt working its way down my leg as I walked away? My super-secure belt-loop money pouch.
realclemsongrad
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by realclemsongrad »

Nicolas wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:46 pm Put a decoy wallet in your back pocket. The thief will take it and be on his/her way. Your real wallet secured elsewhere. Better bring several for repeated use. You can probably pick up a few cheap at your local Goodwill store.
My friend did this in Barcelona. He had a fake wallet with paper clippings in the back pocket and sure enough it was gone.
nanciT
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by nanciT »

We always dress down....old comfy shoes and wear our money/credit card under shirt. We have traveled a great deal overseas and I lived in the Netherlands for several years. My husband did have his wallet taken from his front pocket at the airport while getting on the plane in Spain. He alerted staff and they found the wallet in the trash empty.
While in Spain and on a public bus, a lady next to me had her backpack slashed open. No one noticed until she was getting off the bus.
I never wear any kind of jewelry when we travel. We travel as light as we can and also have placed Apple Tag in our luggage.
InMyDreams
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by InMyDreams »

"Mad Money" underneath the insoles of my shoes. You also need the CC#', Passport #s, and the number or website to notify if those things are stolen - they could go in your shoes, too (or you have a really good memory for numbers, or the hotel safe).

My father had his drying pants stolen off a balcony in the Caribbean - left out to dry from a day's excursion, they had his wallet in them, too.

Someone on my trip to Peru was accosted by a "flower vendor" on the street - her iPhone was gone after that encounter.
had her backpack slashed open.
Yes, they make all kinds of things from materials that are difficult to slash, including back packs.
Jim85
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Jim85 »

Just back from Italy. I usually took the minimum with me and left the rest in hotel safe or hidden in Airbnb if it didn’t have a safe. Usually just had some bills wrapped around a credit card in front pocket. Nothing obvious protruding from my pants. Biggest issue would be phone. While it can be rendered useless to the thief, encryption/password/etc, would be problematic to lose for the traveler, and hard to hide. My wife was concerned credit card chip or something could be scanned from my pocket somehow so I put in a shielded envelope initially. That became a headache getting it in/out and I wasn’t sure what we were even concerned with. That lasted just a couple days. While there’s likely tech out there to do this, I think it’s just internet fueled paranoia. Possible but highly unlikely.
mark_in_denver
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by mark_in_denver »

protagonist wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:27 pm
Nicolas wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:46 pm Put a decoy wallet in your back pocket. The thief will take it and be on his/her way. Your real wallet secured elsewhere. Better bring several for repeated use. You can probably pick up a few cheap at your local Goodwill store.
That's a good idea. Simple precaution that will keep you from constantly looking over your shoulder. Maybe I will do this in Paris this year. Thanks.
This wouldn't work for me. I'd be advertising, here's my wallet come and pick pocket me. If that happened there's a real chance my ugly half would take over and escalate the situation into some sort of fight and whatever happens, happens. I'd rather just bring only want i need and conceal it, why ruin a trip.
rationalactor
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by rationalactor »

+1 on don’t leave anything for a second. A few years ago in Madrid, I was having breakfast with a colleague at a 5 star business hotel. Briefcase was sitting by my feet. I got up for about 30 seconds to get a bowl of fruit from the buffet, 15 feet away, and when I came back the briefcase was gone. No big deal; I had my passport and wallet on me, and was headed to the airport anyway for a flight to NY. By the time I got to my office there the IT guys had already set me up with a replacement PC, and all of my files had been transferred over from some sort of corporate backup system. But lesson learned! Terrible feeling and amazing to know it could happen so fast; probably some kind of inside job and whoever stole my briefcase probably had his eyes on 3 others, too; just was waiting to see who got a bowl of fruit first! Of course the hotel staff feigned shock at what had happened…
Operon
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Operon »

For those who wear them, I endorse a bra wallet. There are a lot of options available now on Amazon and elsewhere that are both moisture-repellent and are soft and comfortable. It generally necessitates ducking into a restroom to access, and isn't suitable for anything as large and heavy as a phone, but you can be extremely confident the contents will remain secure. In pickpocket-rich areas, I'm willing to put up with the hassle of finding a ladies' room a couple times a day in order to not spend the rest of the day stressing. And if I'm going somewhere I know that would be too difficult, I can at least split my cash between the secure wallet and an accessible one.
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Vulcan
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Vulcan »

protagonist wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:22 pmSimple precautions are one thing. If you wear your cell phone or a fat wallet in a back pocket, whether in Spain, the USA or just about anywhere, it is like wearing a sign that says "Rob me, please!" So wear cargo pants (or shorts) with deep zippable pockets for your valuables, or some such thing. I doubt if anybody will unzip your pocket to get your wallet.
That's what I do. Zippable front pocket inside regular front pocket. Or, weather permitting, travel vest (like this), valuables in inner zipped pockets.

On our first day in Rome, I saw a girl no older than six or seven trying to pick a back shorts pocket of some clueless American dude on a quiet side street while her mother created a commotion asking us for change.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Vulcan »

Operon wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:41 amAnd if I'm going somewhere I know that would be too difficult, I can at least split my cash between the secure wallet and an accessible one.
"Cash"? Enough to split?
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by White Coat Investor »

A. L. Breguet wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 pm We will be in Spain for a month, including a week in Barcelona, which has been called the "pickpocket capital of the world". We were on guard in Russia, Italy, France, etc, and we had no problems. We were not on guard as much in Ireland, and my wife had her wallet with cards and cash stolen from inside her zipped up backpack. Fortunately they did not get her passport or phone.

Nothing is foolproof, and the best advice is not to bring along anything that would hurt too much to lose. But...My/our strategy -
  • 1. NOTHING in my back pockets. Low-value stuff (if anything) in my front pockets.
    2. A credit card and some (minimal) cash in a money holster worn under my shirt. Passport is apparently needed much of the time in Spain, so that will go in there as well. Wife has a small cross-body purse, but also a backpack with concealable compartment. We know to walk away from traffic--motorcyclists can zip by and try to snatch something.
    3. A Nikon Z50 with pancake zoom 16-50. This is worn cross-body on a strong, high quality strap, with my hand on it most of the time.
    4. Backpacks have one compartment with zipper facing the back (not openable from the outside). My cellphone will be in here most of the time. I am not a big phone user, but will take some photos with it. Outer pockets will have minimal stuff--a water bottle, rain jacket...I may use my padlock on these, but that has the disadvantage of drawing attention. These backpacks also have metal cables that loop around a table leg or something.
    5. Watch is a 75$ Swatch. No valuable stuff on me except the camera!
    6. Paranoia. Sad as it is to say, We have been warned that anyone trying to get near may be/probably is a pickpocket: Confused English-speaking tourists; Friendly people; Kids or old folks selling any kind of thing or asking for signatures on peitions; Anyone claiming to have found a valuable thing and offering to split it with me; Any kind of commotion is likely a diversion, etc, etc.
    7. My android phone has its SDXC card encrypted--I THINK--I mean it says it is encrypted. I may pull it out and try it in a card reader to be sure. I also have a 6-digit screen lock password. Hope this is sufficient? (How easy is it to crack this type of thing?). I am told that 1.) Crooks are looking for iPhones and not Android phones, and 2.) Most crooks just want to wipe the phone and sell--they are not looking for data.
    8. Never leave phones, or valuable stuff out on tables in restaurants or anywhere, even for a second.
Any other suggestions would be of interest!

Thanks.
Having been a tourist in 40+ countries, I think the fear of pickpockets is pretty overblown. Thinking about it enough to make a post like this would probably ruin a lot of trips for me! Crime doesn't seem particularly more likely most of the places I've been than many of the places I go in the US. That includes a family trip to Medellin last year (and Barcelona a couple of years ago).

I'm far more likely to just leave my wallet or phone behind than to have it stolen from me. The one time I've had my wallet stolen (in the US) I dropped it in the hospital parking lot. By the time the cops got it back to me I had already gotten a new license and obviously cancelled all the cards. They were all still in the wallet so I really only lost the $20 I had in there.

But I did have a guy that was probably a scammer come up to me in Paris this week with a sob story about being from Montreal and having had his wallet, phone, and passport (and his wife's wallet, phone, and passport) stolen along with "$10,000 worth of stuff" in the bags that were stolen from them. He was asking for money for subway fare, a train, and an Uber to get to his AirBNB. It was way too squirrelly so I told him I didn't feel comfortable giving him cash. My son thought I was heartless until I pointed out all the wacky things about his story. If I was wrong, maybe that guy should read this post. Probably should have offered to walk back to the subway station with him and pay for his fare, but the story was so squirrelly I didn't want to be around the guy any longer. But I get lied to a lot in my professional life so I like to think my squirrel detector is pretty good.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
Nver2Late
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Nver2Late »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:41 am I think the fear of pickpockets is pretty overblown.
I generally agree with this. Just be careful and be aware of your surroundings.

I've had 3 instances overseas:
In the 1980s in Rome - stole our map. First time and first day in Rome, pre-internet, we spent the rest of the day looking for our rented flat. It was marked on the map!
In London, late night at a pub, looked across the room an saw a moneybelt, open and laying on the floor by the exit. It was my buddy's. He was wearing it under his shirt, so we have no idea how/when/who lifted it.
In China - daughter had her ipod stolen. I still laugh at the thought of some dude listening to her Kidsbop.
"Better is the enemy of good." Good is good.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:24 am
protagonist wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:27 pm
Nicolas wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:46 pm Put a decoy wallet in your back pocket. The thief will take it and be on his/her way. Your real wallet secured elsewhere. Better bring several for repeated use. You can probably pick up a few cheap at your local Goodwill store.
That's a good idea. Simple precaution that will keep you from constantly looking over your shoulder. Maybe I will do this in Paris this year. Thanks.
This wouldn't work for me. I'd be advertising, here's my wallet come and pick pocket me. If that happened there's a real chance my ugly half would take over and escalate the situation into some sort of fight and whatever happens, happens. I'd rather just bring only want i need and conceal it, why ruin a trip.
Perhaps you are right. Maybe it just makes you a target. OK....I'll just do what I have done in the past.
I just wear cargo pants (or shorts) with zippers. And I have a tiny wallet that buries itself well in a deep pocket. I can't imagine a pickpocket unzipping my pants (pockets!) to get my valuables.
I am actually more worried about losing things myself than getting robbed....I can be sort of spacy, plus stuff falls out of shallow or unzipped pockets. I wonder how often some people think they have been robbed when actually they just lose stuff.
Last edited by protagonist on Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 am

On our first day in Rome, I saw a girl no older than six or seven trying to pick a back shorts pocket of some clueless American dude on a quiet side street while her mother created a commotion asking us for change.
Mother has clearly read Charles Dickens! I love it.
McDougal
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by McDougal »

I kind of understand the concept of all the suggestions of having a decoy wallet in your back pocket. But doesn't the bulge just make you a target in the first place? And what happens after you are pickpocketed? You have several and keep replacing them, or, I don't know, go home? Just be aware of your surroundings, pretty much just like when you are in crowded places at home.
halfnine
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by halfnine »

protagonist wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:14 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:19 am

On our first day in Rome, I saw a girl no older than six or seven trying to pick a back shorts pocket of some clueless American dude on a quiet side street while her mother created a commotion asking us for change.
Mother has clearly read Charles Dickens! I love it.
It's been a long time since I've been to Rome. But the scam that became quite apparent when I arrived was the Romas (gypsies) would work the train station in large groups. The children would pickpocket and then quickly pass the goods off to another child or adult and then it would change hands many times in the process. So even if you noticed it if you tried to do anything about it your goods were long gone.
halfnine
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by halfnine »

McDougal wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:45 am I kind of understand the concept of all the suggestions of having a decoy wallet in your back pocket. But doesn't the bulge just make you a target in the first place? And what happens after you are pickpocketed? You have several and keep replacing them, or, I don't know, go home? Just be aware of your surroundings, pretty much just like when you are in crowded places at home.
I don't quite understand this thought process either. The point of a decoy wallet is for muggings. The hope being they take your decoy wallet and go.
halfnine
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by halfnine »

rich126 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:06 pm
bberris wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:57 am
sunsetting101 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:35 am If a friend were to recant a story of their vacation, I would much rather hear about their pickpocket story than visiting museum x. Add a little chase scene and I'm all ears.
Then maybe this one is for you.

A few weeks ago in Palermo, a guy bumped me twice walking on the sidewalk and unzipped the fanny pack, but didn't find anything of value to him, or maybe he just left because I was looking at him. Later that same day, two guys on a motorbike tried to take my phone out of my hand, but I held on.
Fighting back is the natural instinct but I recall reading a blogger was in a country and felt something and instinctively resisted and the guy had a knife and cut his hand. Fortunately not severely but enough to get stitches in the local hospital. Most of the time crime is not violent but sometimes it can go in a bad way.
Most likely the knife wasn't used to intentionallly harm the individual. More likely it was used to cut a strap on a backpack, camera, etc. and the individual instinctively put their hand in the location where they were cutting to try to get the goods.
TravelforFun
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by TravelforFun »

A. L. Breguet wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 pm We will be in Spain for a month, including a week in Barcelona, which has been called the "pickpocket capital of the world". We were on guard in Russia, Italy, France, etc, and we had no problems. We were not on guard as much in Ireland, and my wife had her wallet with cards and cash stolen from inside her zipped up backpack. Fortunately they did not get her passport or phone.

Nothing is foolproof, and the best advice is not to bring along anything that would hurt too much to lose. But...My/our strategy -
  • 1. NOTHING in my back pockets. Low-value stuff (if anything) in my front pockets.
    2. A credit card and some (minimal) cash in a money holster worn under my shirt. Passport is apparently needed much of the time in Spain, so that will go in there as well. Wife has a small cross-body purse, but also a backpack with concealable compartment. We know to walk away from traffic--motorcyclists can zip by and try to snatch something.
    3. A Nikon Z50 with pancake zoom 16-50. This is worn cross-body on a strong, high quality strap, with my hand on it most of the time.
    4. Backpacks have one compartment with zipper facing the back (not openable from the outside). My cellphone will be in here most of the time. I am not a big phone user, but will take some photos with it. Outer pockets will have minimal stuff--a water bottle, rain jacket...I may use my padlock on these, but that has the disadvantage of drawing attention. These backpacks also have metal cables that loop around a table leg or something.
    5. Watch is a 75$ Swatch. No valuable stuff on me except the camera!
    6. Paranoia. Sad as it is to say, We have been warned that anyone trying to get near may be/probably is a pickpocket: Confused English-speaking tourists; Friendly people; Kids or old folks selling any kind of thing or asking for signatures on peitions; Anyone claiming to have found a valuable thing and offering to split it with me; Any kind of commotion is likely a diversion, etc, etc.
    7. My android phone has its SDXC card encrypted--I THINK--I mean it says it is encrypted. I may pull it out and try it in a card reader to be sure. I also have a 6-digit screen lock password. Hope this is sufficient? (How easy is it to crack this type of thing?). I am told that 1.) Crooks are looking for iPhones and not Android phones, and 2.) Most crooks just want to wipe the phone and sell--they are not looking for data.
    8. Never leave phones, or valuable stuff out on tables in restaurants or anywhere, even for a second.
Any other suggestions would be of interest!

Thanks.
We've been to Madrid, Barcelona and Seville and never had to carry our passports with us. We left them in the hotel safe.

TravelforFun
BrownEyedGirl_27
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by BrownEyedGirl_27 »

A. L. Breguet wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:49 pm Thanks guys.

Yes, my wife had her wallet in her purse, which was zipped up, and this was in her zipped backpack. We suspect someone was watching her buy something a few minutes before to learn the location of these items. Then, near the James Joyce Statue on O'Connell Street (tourist central!)--or so we believe--the pickpocket unzipped both and plucked out the wallet. We did not notice until we returned to the hotel. This was on our first night, right after we got off the plane and were trying to stay awake to sync with local time--perfect targets! We had a great trip nevertheless--drove around much of the island. I am actually an Irish citizen myself (foreign birth registry)--we will return some day. Slainté!

Aside from that, those are interesting comments about the change scams. And, a "mugging wallet" is also an interesting idea!
I’m sorry to hear that. I studied at University College Dublin for a semester abroad in ‘14 and wore an old school money belt hidden under my jacket. I would do it again or wear a fanny pack for any international trip. You can wear the pack over your shoulder with the zipper forward facing, which would make it harder for a pickpocket to steal from you. I like the Cotopaxi two pocket one.
"Your mind has a mind of its own. At the very moment when you are most convinced of your own rationality, you may be feeling rather than thinking your way toward a decision.” | Jason Zweig
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tetractys
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by tetractys »

Anything pickable I keep totally secure. Bills I keep folded flat in order with low bills on the outside, in inner front pocket. At especially dangerous areas it’s worth having a guide, and let them (they should offer to) carry gear you could be murdered for, like cameras, purses, bags. Also mindfulness is imperative since predators generally target the lackadaisical, nervous, or tipsy.

Once my interest was piqued by a technique where some young men were polishing freshly brushed wet paint on a car to a high gloss with pieces of nylon stockings. Next thing I know there were ten or so guys around me with one holding up my open wallet and another my ID. Well luckily both were within spread arms length and I quickly snatched them back. There were surprised faces around as I checked and reassembled my goods, and departed with a feeling of bravado/sucker. So no harm was done and I learned something.
Alfonsia
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Alfonsia »

Once you are aware of how the gangs of various types target marks, you can't unsee it. I was in Paris in 2018 I think, and it was awful. I watched predators just stalking people in public LOL. I felt bad for my DDs who didn't get to enjoy the kind of Paris I thought nothing of travelling around as a young woman. London was totally fine, but Paris felt so poisoned. What was worse was that once it was dusk it felt dangerous in certain places. Ominous. It was such a bummer.
rich126
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by rich126 »

This was the lady I mentioned in a previous post.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/ ... ickpockets
Eliana Guerrero is the guardian angel of the Spanish city – blowing her whistle when she spots the thieves who prey on tourists in metro trains and stations but are rarely prosecuted.
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fourwheelcycle
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by fourwheelcycle »

My wife and I have traveled to Europe about fourteen times, including to Barcelona this spring. My wife wears a zippered leather pouch across her stomach, with a strong leather belt that goes around her waist - never a purse with a shoulder strap. I wear a nylon travel wallet with a front flap that closes with a secure nylon fastener. The flap closes over an open compartment for a digital pocket camera and zippered compartments for my passport (when it's not in our hotel room safe), a credit card, my driver's license with photo ID, and less than $100 at a time of local currency. The travel wallet has a thick back loop that goes around my strong leather belt, not a thin nylon belt that could be easily cut away.
livelovelaugh00
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by livelovelaugh00 »

The more I read about it, the more I appreciate that I live in a great country.
EddyB
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by EddyB »

livelovelaugh00 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:20 pm The more I read about it, the more I appreciate that I live in a great country.
The more I read about it, the more I wonder how I manage to live here without taking these precautions.
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legio XX
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by legio XX »

kojima wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:05 am You don't need to carry your passport with you, leave it at your accomdation. . . .
This doesn't work in all locations. In Italy pulling out the passport is a regular necessity. The security craze everywhere doesn't seem to be going way any time soon so I'd guess it will only be more frequently required.
NYCaviator
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by NYCaviator »

legio XX wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:10 am
kojima wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:05 am You don't need to carry your passport with you, leave it at your accomdation. . . .
This doesn't work in all locations. In Italy pulling out the passport is a regular necessity. The security craze everywhere doesn't seem to be going way any time soon so I'd guess it will only be more frequently required.
I’ve traveled all over Italy over the past decade and have never been asked to show my passport outside of checking into a hotel. Where have you been asked for it?

I think carrying your passport at all times is a terrible idea. It’s the one document you don’t want to lose, so why take the risk? Lock it up at your hotel. You may need to have it with your international drivers license if you’re renting a car. But walking around town? No need.

There’s an entire industry of travel companies who scare tourists and make them think they need all of these ridiculous products like hidden money belts and slash proof purses. Or the silly ideas like carrying a dummy wallet. The easiest solution? Travel light. Keep a credit card in one front pocket, and some cash in a money clip in another. And put your hands in your pockets when you’re in a crowd like a subway. It’s a lot harder for someone to steal something out of your front pocket without you noticing.

Also, don’t carry a backpack or a purse. Not only does that make you stick out like a sore thumb and scream “I’m a tourist with stuff to steal,” it’s an easy target. Chances are 99% of the stuff tourists pack in their backpacks just to walk around town is completely unnecessary. Just take some basic steps and the thieves will target someone else.
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by EddyB »

NYCaviator wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:33 am
legio XX wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:10 am
kojima wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:05 am You don't need to carry your passport with you, leave it at your accomdation. . . .
This doesn't work in all locations. In Italy pulling out the passport is a regular necessity. The security craze everywhere doesn't seem to be going way any time soon so I'd guess it will only be more frequently required.
I’ve traveled all over Italy over the past decade and have never been asked to show my passport outside of checking into a hotel. Where have you been asked for it?

I think carrying your passport at all times is a terrible idea. It’s the one document you don’t want to lose, so why take the risk? Lock it up at your hotel. You may need to have it with your international drivers license if you’re renting a car. But walking around town? No need.
The only times I’m asked to produce ID doing things tourists are at all likely to do in Italy are (very infrequently) when I’m on the train or (always) entering a soccer match (where tickets are issued in individual names).
Nivek
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by Nivek »

NYCaviator wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:33 am
legio XX wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:10 am
kojima wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:05 am You don't need to carry your passport with you, leave it at your accomdation. . . .
This doesn't work in all locations. In Italy pulling out the passport is a regular necessity. The security craze everywhere doesn't seem to be going way any time soon so I'd guess it will only be more frequently required.
I’ve traveled all over Italy over the past decade and have never been asked to show my passport outside of checking into a hotel. Where have you been asked for it?

I think carrying your passport at all times is a terrible idea. It’s the one document you don’t want to lose, so why take the risk? Lock it up at your hotel. You may need to have it with your international drivers license if you’re renting a car. But walking around town? No need.

There’s an entire industry of travel companies who scare tourists and make them think they need all of these ridiculous products like hidden money belts and slash proof purses. Or the silly ideas like carrying a dummy wallet. The easiest solution? Travel light. Keep a credit card in one front pocket, and some cash in a money clip in another. And put your hands in your pockets when you’re in a crowd like a subway. It’s a lot harder for someone to steal something out of your front pocket without you noticing.

Also, don’t carry a backpack or a purse. Not only does that make you stick out like a sore thumb and scream “I’m a tourist with stuff to steal,” it’s an easy target. Chances are 99% of the stuff tourists pack in their backpacks just to walk around town is completely unnecessary. Just take some basic steps and the thieves will target someone else.
When we were in Venice, we were sitting and eating at an outdoor restaurant and police were walking around requesting IDs. They walked over to us and asked us for our passports or ID. I didn’t question why they were doing it, just followed orders but I’ve experienced it. It was in a high touristy area but was surprised they asked for it. We did have luggage with us but they were asking others without luggage that got asked for their passports. We normally wouldn’t have had it with us but since we were walking to the train station later, we needed them.
FRANK2009
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by FRANK2009 »

I'm not too sure about the cross body strap set ups that some posters wrote about. Seems like they would leave someone vulnerable to being dragged down the street by someone in a car, motorcycle, or worst case, a train.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

People who live in big cities walk around at night without fear, but are petrified of wild animal attacks when in the jungle for the first time.
People who live in the jungle are scared silly about crime when they go to a big city for the first time.
When I picked up some friends I knew from when I lived in the Seychelles at Kennedy Airport and drove them into Manhattan in the early 80s, when a large 18-wheeler got a bit too close and attempted to pass they ducked under their seats afraid that would be the end.
Parents who are really vigilant about car seats think it's cool when their kids take up skiing or horseback riding.
The point is that our assessments of relative risk are very subjective and often out of touch with reality.
You will never enjoy your vacation if you are afraid of what you read in the news. Of course, it makes sense to take simple steps to protect yourselves and not be the victim of crime. But if you are that concerned about having your pocket picked walking around Paris, what fun will Paris be? You might consider staying home instead.

And though getting your pocket picked can be a pain in the butt and make you feel violated, in the greater scope of things it really isn't so bad. I've experienced it and lived to see another day. Unless you are stupid about it and carry lots of valuables and make yourself a target, you lose a credit card and drivers license that you report stolen and a little cash (hopefully you left another card and passport in your hotel room for contingencies like this). It beats dying in a plane crash or a car crash on your way to the airport,,,two things to which you probably gave little or no thought (I never saw a Bogleheads thread about it anyway). And it REALLY beats getting COVID in Paris (like my wife and I did last year despite 5 shots and taking precautions :happy )
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worthit
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by worthit »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:41 am
A. L. Breguet wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:01 pm We will be in Spain for a month, including a week in Barcelona, which has been called the "pickpocket capital of the world". We were on guard in Russia, Italy, France, etc, and we had no problems. We were not on guard as much in Ireland, and my wife had her wallet with cards and cash stolen from inside her zipped up backpack. Fortunately they did not get her passport or phone.

Nothing is foolproof, and the best advice is not to bring along anything that would hurt too much to lose. But...My/our strategy -
  • 1. NOTHING in my back pockets. Low-value stuff (if anything) in my front pockets.
    2. A credit card and some (minimal) cash in a money holster worn under my shirt. Passport is apparently needed much of the time in Spain, so that will go in there as well. Wife has a small cross-body purse, but also a backpack with concealable compartment. We know to walk away from traffic--motorcyclists can zip by and try to snatch something.
    3. A Nikon Z50 with pancake zoom 16-50. This is worn cross-body on a strong, high quality strap, with my hand on it most of the time.
    4. Backpacks have one compartment with zipper facing the back (not openable from the outside). My cellphone will be in here most of the time. I am not a big phone user, but will take some photos with it. Outer pockets will have minimal stuff--a water bottle, rain jacket...I may use my padlock on these, but that has the disadvantage of drawing attention. These backpacks also have metal cables that loop around a table leg or something.
    5. Watch is a 75$ Swatch. No valuable stuff on me except the camera!
    6. Paranoia. Sad as it is to say, We have been warned that anyone trying to get near may be/probably is a pickpocket: Confused English-speaking tourists; Friendly people; Kids or old folks selling any kind of thing or asking for signatures on peitions; Anyone claiming to have found a valuable thing and offering to split it with me; Any kind of commotion is likely a diversion, etc, etc.
    7. My android phone has its SDXC card encrypted--I THINK--I mean it says it is encrypted. I may pull it out and try it in a card reader to be sure. I also have a 6-digit screen lock password. Hope this is sufficient? (How easy is it to crack this type of thing?). I am told that 1.) Crooks are looking for iPhones and not Android phones, and 2.) Most crooks just want to wipe the phone and sell--they are not looking for data.
    8. Never leave phones, or valuable stuff out on tables in restaurants or anywhere, even for a second.
Any other suggestions would be of interest!

Thanks.
Having been a tourist in 40+ countries, I think the fear of pickpockets is pretty overblown. Thinking about it enough to make a post like this would probably ruin a lot of trips for me! Crime doesn't seem particularly more likely most of the places I've been than many of the places I go in the US. That includes a family trip to Medellin last year (and Barcelona a couple of years ago).

I'm far more likely to just leave my wallet or phone behind than to have it stolen from me. The one time I've had my wallet stolen (in the US) I dropped it in the hospital parking lot. By the time the cops got it back to me I had already gotten a new license and obviously cancelled all the cards. They were all still in the wallet so I really only lost the $20 I had in there.

But I did have a guy that was probably a scammer come up to me in Paris this week with a sob story about being from Montreal and having had his wallet, phone, and passport (and his wife's wallet, phone, and passport) stolen along with "$10,000 worth of stuff" in the bags that were stolen from them. He was asking for money for subway fare, a train, and an Uber to get to his AirBNB. It was way too squirrelly so I told him I didn't feel comfortable giving him cash. My son thought I was heartless until I pointed out all the wacky things about his story. If I was wrong, maybe that guy should read this post. Probably should have offered to walk back to the subway station with him and pay for his fare, but the story was so squirrelly I didn't want to be around the guy any longer. But I get lied to a lot in my professional life so I like to think my squirrel detector is pretty good.
Well, this sounds more like a scam to me. I would have done the exact same thing. Minimized my engagement with him and not entertaining him any further. This is called being street smart in cities like Paris, NYC, London, etc. In fact, I tell my son to do the same whenever we travel and under no circumstance engage someone with a sob story like this. Kids tend to have a very idealistic view when it comes to such things.

By the way, I agree with the sentiment that being conscious of the surrounding, trusting your gut instinct, and using some common sense and pre-planning go a long way. Beats constantly traveling with some paranoia. I guess as the above poster mentions this is very personal based on one's own exposure and experience in life.
martiansteeler
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by martiansteeler »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:41 am Having been a tourist in 40+ countries, I think the fear of pickpockets is pretty overblown. Thinking about it enough to make a post like this would probably ruin a lot of trips for me! Crime doesn't seem particularly more likely most of the places I've been than many of the places I go in the US. That includes a family trip to Medellin last year (and Barcelona a couple of years ago).
I've got to agree with this. I lived in Europe for 5 years, I travel extensively for work and pleasure. I've been to Barcelona probably 20 times, Madrid 15 or so...Buenos Aires, London, Rome, Romania, Tokyo, Sydney, Athens, you name it. I own an apartment in the middle of tourist center Lisbon.

When I go out, it is wallet in my front pocket, between $5,000 and $10,000 worth of camera equipment in a hiking backpack (not a camera backpack), the camera is usually attached to the backpack shoulder strap with a Peak Design Capture clip, and my passport in same backpack, and I've never had a problem. I stay aware of my surroundings...for example, on a subway, I'll stand with my backpack pressed up against the wall, or wrap the hip strap around a chair leg at a restaurant. Eyes up, not texting when I walk...be smart when looking at my phone map, etc.
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by hunoraut »

Alfonsia wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:03 pm Once you are aware of how the gangs of various types target marks, you can't unsee it. I was in Paris in 2018 I think, and it was awful. I watched predators just stalking people in public LOL. I felt bad for my DDs who didn't get to enjoy the kind of Paris I thought nothing of travelling around as a young woman. London was totally fine, but Paris felt so poisoned. What was worse was that once it was dusk it felt dangerous in certain places. Ominous. It was such a bummer.
3 consecutive trips to Paris I saw unwitting tourists fall prey to the grab-and-run gangs on the RER line to/from airport.

Pickpocketing and theft risk absolutely exists and is acute in the popular cities (Paris, Barcelona, Rome, etc)….but it only affects those really oblivious of their surroundings. If people have half a mind to pay attention, its not a real concern.
livelovelaugh00
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by livelovelaugh00 »

Travel to Spain and France tomorrow. My pants have zipped pockets.
KyleAAA
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by KyleAAA »

Just keep your hand on your wallet in crowds. Works well.
orange96
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by orange96 »

Ankle wallet.
protagonist
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Re: Defense against the dark arts - Pickpockets!

Post by protagonist »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:41 am

But I did have a guy that was probably a scammer come up to me in Paris this week with a sob story about being from Montreal and having had his wallet, phone, and passport (and his wife's wallet, phone, and passport) stolen along with "$10,000 worth of stuff" in the bags that were stolen from them.
This reminds me of when I was a young,single doctor in SF in the 1980s and a beautiful, well-composed woman approached me with a sob story , asking for money for bus fare because she was robbed. I was pretty sure she was scamming me but...well....I was a single young doctor and she was a beautiful woman. I was feeling magnanimous. So I gave her $20 along with my phone number (pre-cell phone days) and told her that I thought she was probably just scamming me but, if not, to renew my faith in mankind, to please contact me and reimburse me when she got home. On the off chance that she was honest (she did have a good sales pitch), I was hoping she would call.

Of course, she didn't.

Down the road, much like being pickpocketed, I look at it as paying $20 for a good story to tell in the future.
Last edited by protagonist on Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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