Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

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freakyfriday
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Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by freakyfriday »

Hi all (& especialliy wine afficionados and afficionadas)!


I am buying a case of wine mostly out of curiousity as to see how it ages and to make use of a hand-me-down wine fridge. Is there a general tactic for this? I know some makers highlight ageability like Penfolds Bin. Presumably if I like the taste of the wine today, why would I let it move away from that for years?

I did a tasting a couple months ago and I'm apparently a big fan of Rioja. I can't find any maker that labels particular wines they think will age well.

I've grabbed a few copies of WineSpectator and not found that useful!


Does anyone know of Rioja (available in europe) that is considered likely to age-well?

(It will be considered 9L of [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] in my AA and I'm not treating this as an investment).
neilpilot
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by neilpilot »

While Rioja can be red, white, rosé, and even sparkling, I'm going to assume you plan on buying red. Rioja comes in grades from the least expensive (no oak aging):
  • Vino Joven: no oak aging
    Crianza: at least two years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Reserva: at least three years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Gran Reserva: at least five years aging, two years of which must be in oak barrel
In general, although certainly not required, 2-3 years aging is most appropriate for Crianza or Reserva.
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alpenglow
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by alpenglow »

I'm partial to Barolo, made from the Nebbiolo grape, which is a highly age worthy wine. It can mature for decades.

For Rioja, I like R. Lopez de Heredia Vina Tondonia Reserva, though it has become quite expensive lately. Those should be good for at least 20 years or more depending on vintage.

If you don't know a lot about wine yet, I would try a lot of variety before going in on a case of something you don't especially like down the road. My cellar has about 125 bottles and there is a bunch of stuff I'm not really that into anymore. Tastes change over time.
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freakyfriday
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by freakyfriday »

alpenglow wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:51 am I'm partial to Barolo, made from the Nebbiolo grape, which is a highly age worthy wine. It can mature for decades.

For Rioja, I like R. Lopez de Heredia Vina Tondonia Reserva, though it has become quite expensive lately. Those should be good for at least 20 years or more depending on vintage.

If you don't know a lot about wine yet, I would try a lot of variety before going in on a case of something you don't especially like down the road. My cellar has about 125 bottles and there is a bunch of stuff I'm not really that into anymore. Tastes change over time.
Thanks! I am getting a sense that the smaller your "cellar" or fridge the less forgiving picking your selection is and so the more experience you require. Which is obvious in hindsight.
neilpilot wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am While Rioja can be red, white, rosé, and even sparkling, I'm going to assume you plan on buying red. Rioja comes in grades from the least expensive (no oak aging):
  • Vino Joven: no oak aging
    Crianza: at least two years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Reserva: at least three years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Gran Reserva: at least five years aging, two years of which must be in oak barrel
In general, although certainly not required, 2-3 years aging is most appropriate for Crianza or Reserva.
Yes indeed the red! I know it's a very cheap wine but Campo Viejo Rioja Tempranillo is a wine I can always go back to.

Perhaps I will try and visit a winery and then buy a case of their wine if there is one they recommend would age well. Then at least the story will be worth remembering each time I drink it!
bendix
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by bendix »

I dont know... aging wine in your own basement is a gamble I feel. I found that at least half of the wines that I let age tasted worse and not better. At least in my view. And then I dont know which wines will improve and which will become worse. Which is why I tend to buy what I plan on enjoying in the very foreseeable. And leave it at that.
WhyNotUs
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by WhyNotUs »

freakyfriday wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:12 am
I am buying a case of wine mostly out of curiousity as to see how it ages and to make use of a hand-me-down wine fridge. Is there a general tactic for this?
[Do you have a basement? might be easier if there is a cool area, otherwise might want to look up the wine fridge or use Kill-AWatt to see what it will cost to operate the wine cooler. With electricity cost, it may be cheaper to buy a bottle of Gran Reserva once in a while.

I know some makers highlight ageability like Penfolds Bin. Presumably if I like the taste of the wine today, why would I let it move away from that for years?
A very good question, so few buyer age wine that it usually has a bad risk to reward ratio. I am no expert but do have friends who age wine in a somewhat serious manner so get some second hand education. So far my education is that it is not worth it :happy YMMV

Does anyone know of Rioja (available in europe) that is considered likely to age-well?
For your experiment, it might be better to drink your Rioja and buy some wine that is expected to age well. A notepad on the fridge with your tasting notes might help draw conclusions.

(It will be considered 9L of [(removed) --admin LadyGeek] in my AA and I'm not treating this as an investment).
[ quote color fixed by admin LadyGeek]
I own the next hot stock- VTSAX
neilpilot
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Location: Memphis area

Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by neilpilot »

freakyfriday wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:30 am
alpenglow wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:51 am I'm partial to Barolo, made from the Nebbiolo grape, which is a highly age worthy wine. It can mature for decades.

For Rioja, I like R. Lopez de Heredia Vina Tondonia Reserva, though it has become quite expensive lately. Those should be good for at least 20 years or more depending on vintage.

If you don't know a lot about wine yet, I would try a lot of variety before going in on a case of something you don't especially like down the road. My cellar has about 125 bottles and there is a bunch of stuff I'm not really that into anymore. Tastes change over time.
Thanks! I am getting a sense that the smaller your "cellar" or fridge the less forgiving picking your selection is and so the more experience you require. Which is obvious in hindsight.
neilpilot wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am While Rioja can be red, white, rosé, and even sparkling, I'm going to assume you plan on buying red. Rioja comes in grades from the least expensive (no oak aging):
  • Vino Joven: no oak aging
    Crianza: at least two years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Reserva: at least three years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Gran Reserva: at least five years aging, two years of which must be in oak barrel
In general, although certainly not required, 2-3 years aging is most appropriate for Crianza or Reserva.
Yes indeed the red! I know it's a very cheap wine but Campo Viejo Rioja Tempranillo is a wine I can always go back to.

Perhaps I will try and visit a winery and then buy a case of their wine if there is one they recommend would age well. Then at least the story will be worth remembering each time I drink it!
FF, the wine you linked to is a 2019, and has hopefully been stored properly. It's unlikely to improve with further aging. Just drink and enjoy.
Topic Author
freakyfriday
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Location: London

Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by freakyfriday »

WhyNotUs wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:34 am
freakyfriday wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:12 am
I am buying a case of wine mostly out of curiousity as to see how it ages and to make use of a hand-me-down wine fridge. Is there a general tactic for this?
[Do you have a basement? might be easier if there is a cool area, otherwise might want to look up the wine fridge or use Kill-AWatt to see what it will cost to operate the wine cooler. With electricity cost, it may be cheaper to buy a bottle of Gran Reserva once in a while.

I know some makers highlight ageability like Penfolds Bin. Presumably if I like the taste of the wine today, why would I let it move away from that for years?
A very good question, so few buyer age wine that it usually has a bad risk to reward ratio. I am no expert but do have friends who age wine in a somewhat serious manner so get some second hand education. So far my education is that it is not worth it :happy YMMV

Does anyone know of Rioja (available in europe) that is considered likely to age-well?
For your experiment, it might be better to drink your Rioja and buy some wine that is expected to age well. A notepad on the fridge with your tasting notes might help draw conclusions.

(It will be considered 9L of urine in my AA and I'm not treating this as an investment).
[ quote color fixed by admin LadyGeek]
Thanks I'm starting to see it is more a labour of love and curiosity.
neilpilot wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:37 am
freakyfriday wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:30 am
alpenglow wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:51 am I'm partial to Barolo, made from the Nebbiolo grape, which is a highly age worthy wine. It can mature for decades.

For Rioja, I like R. Lopez de Heredia Vina Tondonia Reserva, though it has become quite expensive lately. Those should be good for at least 20 years or more depending on vintage.

If you don't know a lot about wine yet, I would try a lot of variety before going in on a case of something you don't especially like down the road. My cellar has about 125 bottles and there is a bunch of stuff I'm not really that into anymore. Tastes change over time.
Thanks! I am getting a sense that the smaller your "cellar" or fridge the less forgiving picking your selection is and so the more experience you require. Which is obvious in hindsight.
neilpilot wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:27 am While Rioja can be red, white, rosé, and even sparkling, I'm going to assume you plan on buying red. Rioja comes in grades from the least expensive (no oak aging):
  • Vino Joven: no oak aging
    Crianza: at least two years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Reserva: at least three years aging, one year of which must be in oak barrel
    Gran Reserva: at least five years aging, two years of which must be in oak barrel
In general, although certainly not required, 2-3 years aging is most appropriate for Crianza or Reserva.
Yes indeed the red! I know it's a very cheap wine but Campo Viejo Rioja Tempranillo is a wine I can always go back to.

Perhaps I will try and visit a winery and then buy a case of their wine if there is one they recommend would age well. Then at least the story will be worth remembering each time I drink it!
FF, the wine you linked to is a 2019, and has hopefully been stored properly. It's unlikely to improve with further aging. Just drink and enjoy.
(My most recent bottle was 2021) But this is part of my confusion, lets say I enjoy that Rioja, how do I turn that insight into a decision around cellaring wine? My local wine retail shop has not been helpful, likely more interested in selling me whats to hand.
theron
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by theron »

A second vote for Lopez de Heredia, both the white and the red rioja.

Two other kinds of relatively inexpensive wine that reward long aging are chianti and riesling. For the former, I'd look for names like Fontodi and Felsina...the latter's chianti classico is under $30 and 10 years or so does wonders for it. And a bottle of $20 riesling (Kabinett) can transform beautifully with 20 years on it.

Also, of course, most champagne -- even the mass market stuff -- improves hugely with aging.

Check out cellartracker.com for reviews of wine you might be interested in buying -- you can go back through prior vintages and see how they are ageing according to user reviews.
MMiroir
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by MMiroir »

The short answer is Marques de Riscal Reserva. We have been buying this $20 wine for some time, and it will improve with a few years of cellaring.

Image

The long answer is that most well made wines will improve with aging in proper storage. An east way to tell if a wine will improve is to decant it, and then drink is it slowly over a three or four hour period. It you notice an improvement in the wine, then the wine would be a good candidate for aging. If it stays the same or declines, then it probably is not a great choice.

Some other comments:

1 - If you are looking at buying a case, pay attention to the quality of the vintage. Many American's are very used to California wines which have little variation in quality from year to year. However, that is not true of Europe, in which the quality of the vintage will vary quite a bit. Italian wines in particular seem to have great variations from year to year. At the minimum you want to avoid the bad vintages when storing wine.

2 - Grape varietal matters as some types of wine will go through "dead" or "dumb" periods as they age. Cabernet Sauvignon and Nebbiolo in particular are known for this. Other types of grapes like Zinfandel and Grenache don't suffer this issue.

3 - The cost of a wine may not be indicative of it's ability to age. There are well produced table wines like Cotes du Rhone that will age nicely, while some expensive but overprocessed wines may not change a bit over time.
safari
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by safari »

I would not recommend specifically buying wine to age for a casual wine drinker. There are plenty of wine available to enjoy that doesn't require aging. Aging is more appropriate for wine collectors who acquire rare bottles upon release that would benefit from aging. These bottles would be either a lot more expensive to buy already aged or so rare that the back vintages would be very hard or next to impossible to find. It's still a great idea to store the wine in a wine fridge, even without aging.
Topic Author
freakyfriday
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by freakyfriday »

theron wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:10 pm A second vote for Lopez de Heredia, both the white and the red rioja.

Two other kinds of relatively inexpensive wine that reward long aging are chianti and riesling. For the former, I'd look for names like Fontodi and Felsina...the latter's chianti classico is under $30 and 10 years or so does wonders for it. And a bottle of $20 riesling (Kabinett) can transform beautifully with 20 years on it.

Also, of course, most champagne -- even the mass market stuff -- improves hugely with aging.

Check out cellartracker.com for reviews of wine you might be interested in buying -- you can go back through prior vintages and see how they are ageing according to user reviews.
Thank you! Have cellartracker set up now, surprised it have even local own-brand wine!
MMiroir wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 2:37 pm The short answer is Marques de Riscal Reserva. We have been buying this $20 wine for some time, and it will improve with a few years of cellaring.

Image

The long answer is that most well made wines will improve with aging in proper storage. An east way to tell if a wine will improve is to decant it, and then drink is it slowly over a three or four hour period. It you notice an improvement in the wine, then the wine would be a good candidate for aging. If it stays the same or declines, then it probably is not a great choice.

Some other comments:

1 - If you are looking at buying a case, pay attention to the quality of the vintage. Many American's are very used to California wines which have little variation in quality from year to year. However, that is not true of Europe, in which the quality of the vintage will vary quite a bit. Italian wines in particular seem to have great variations from year to year. At the minimum you want to avoid the bad vintages when storing wine.

2 - Grape varietal matters as some types of wine will go through "dead" or "dumb" periods as they age. Cabernet Sauvignon and Nebbiolo in particular are known for this. Other types of grapes like Zinfandel and Grenache don't suffer this issue.

3 - The cost of a wine may not be indicative of it's ability to age. There are well produced table wines like Cotes du Rhone that will age nicely, while some expensive but overprocessed wines may not change a bit over time.
Just what I was looking for, I've ordered 3 bottles and will see what I think!
safari wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:24 pm I would not recommend specifically buying wine to age for a casual wine drinker. There are plenty of wine available to enjoy that doesn't require aging. Aging is more appropriate for wine collectors who acquire rare bottles upon release that would benefit from aging. These bottles would be either a lot more expensive to buy already aged or so rare that the back vintages would be very hard or next to impossible to find. It's still a great idea to store the wine in a wine fridge, even without aging.
Thanks! I am just thinking of doing this mostly out of interest. I don't mind if the wine is worse - my tastes are not so sensitive anyways. So long as I don't end up with a crate of vinagear :)
caffeperfavore
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Re: Case of Wine to Cellar and Drink

Post by caffeperfavore »

freakyfriday wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:31 am (My most recent bottle was 2021) But this is part of my confusion, lets say I enjoy that Rioja, how do I turn that insight into a decision around cellaring wine? My local wine retail shop has not been helpful, likely more interested in selling me whats to hand.
Regarding what wine is likely to age well, take a closer look at those Wine Spectator (or Wine Advocate) ratings. It's often the last line of the review for an individual wine. E.g., "Drink now through 2025" (not recommended for aging) or "Best enjoyed from 2030 through 2040" (clearly, one for aging), etc. The further out the years, obviously, the more likely it is to age well. They may not bother listing this with younger, less expensive wines that are meant to be consumed now. Keep in mind this is just one knowledgeable person's opinion of how well it will age. You never really know until you do it.

There's a good chance that hand me down wine fridge won't last for 20 years, so have a backup plan. The main thing is to keep the wine away from heat. Mid 50's F is ideal. It doesn't take a long for a wine to become "cooked."

I wouldn't get in a hurry to buy something right away. You're new to wine, so take your time to get to know more varietals and vineyards. Much of the pleasure of wine is in the exploration and discovery.
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