Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

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hvaclorax
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by hvaclorax »

Gadget wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:13 am
twh wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:26 pm Few things...

I do not like Nest thermostats. Too much guessing going on. I know the schedule and I just want the schedule. I cannot imagine 13 zones on Nest -- that sounds like a nightmare all by itself and that is likely part of your problem.

If you do replace, you might want to consider dual-fuel systems. That way you can leverage the best price and if you need that extra jolt that hydrocarbon heating provides, you can leverage that as well.
This is not correct. You can setup Nest thermostats to a specific schedule. You don't have to use its auto climate feature (I don't).

In fact, with more zones it's even easier on a Nest. You can copy/paste schedules between thermostats and setup everything to switch from home to away temperatures just by your family phone locations. That way it's all just programmed schedule on, or eco saving temperatures on based on if you're home or not.
Regarding thermostats, on a boiler supply system (hot water) thermostat is set and forget. Setting back at night or when homeowner is away isn’t necessary. I finally understand, thermal mass heating is different than furnace blowing hot air into a room. So the efficiency is best when the boiler is set at say 68-72 degrees. I have a boiler, learned over these many years how to get the best results to heat my 3000 square foot home. Yes we have auxiliary sources- wood burning and solar but the boiler does the heavy duty job.
I’m seeing a lot of advice, mine included, so obviously it’s a topic of interest with varying degrees of knowledge. From consumer to professional advice here.
The OP would do well to study this subject so at least they know what their HVAC person is talking about.
BTW: My HVAC handle has nothing to do with heating. It’s a joke about homeostasis. 🫠
Valuethinker
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Valuethinker »

LotsaGray wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:06 pm Be very careful talking climate between Midwest US and Europe. What you discussed may be true for Norway and maybe Sweden but for a given lattitude Europe climate much warmer than Midwest US due to the Gulf Stream.
That's my point. Norway is colder that most of Europe and almost as cold as Chicago. If heat pumps can work in Norway, then they can work anywhere that's warmer.
It was in any case a point which was not relevant. True that latitude does not determine climate, but if you check the latitudes:

Chicago - 41.8 degrees N
Oslo - 59.8 degrees N

Whilst it is amazing that Oslo is as warm as Chicago in winter (that's a maritime climate for you plus Atlantic Meridional Overturning (?) aka "the Gulf Stream"), Oslo (at the southern end of Norway) is also way north of Continental USA ex Alaska.

This does help one to understand why Chicago is so hot in summer, though.
hvaclorax
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by hvaclorax »

A good measure is heating degree days which allows comparison between different locations.
talzara
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by talzara »

mrc wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:03 am
talzara wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:51 pm Oslo is in southern Norway, and Chicago is in the northern United States. A warm climate for them is a cold climate for us. If heat pumps can work in Norway, then they can work in almost all of the United States.
For the record, average low temps in winter are colder in Chicago than Oslo, by a couple degrees. Minimum temp might factor in here too given the type of auxiliary heat available.

Chicago ave min 20

Oslo ave min 23
I know Oslo is slightly warmer than Chicago. I said so in the paragraph above the one that you quoted:
talzara wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:51 pm Half of the homes in Norway are heated by heat pumps. The design temperature in Oslo is only 2°F above the design temperature in Chicago. If heat pumps can work in Oslo, then they can work in Chicago and the Poconos, Pennsylvania.
2 degrees is insignificant when the heat pump is transferring heat from 2°F air outdoors to 70°F air indoors. If a heat pump is capable of heating a house with a 66-degree temperature differential, then it only has to be slightly larger to heat a house with a 68-degree temperature differential.
talzara
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by talzara »

hvaclorax wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 4:02 pm A good measure is heating degree days which allows comparison between different locations.
Heating degree-days are used to calculate consumption and efficiency. They are not used to select equipment.

The design temperature is used to select equipment.

Queens, New York City and Topeka, Kansas have about the same heating degree-days, but the design temperature in Topeka is 10°F lower. You need a larger heat pump (or furnace) in Topeka than in Queens. However, a furnace will burn about the same amount of gas over a year.
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Fire2020
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Fire2020 »

Once again, thanks for all the responses!

We talked to the company who built the house before we purchased it and while they remember the project, they don't have the records for the house. Looks like we will have to do the Manual J calculation ourselves.

To clarify, there are two boilers. They are two completely separate systems in opposite ends of the house.

We were told the water to heat the radiators is at 170 degs and the water to heat the floors is at 140 degs. Each of the two boilers has the ability to provide these two different temps.

We are in a high desert climate at 6,800 ft ASL. It almost never gets to 0 degs here. Typically it's a low of 10-15 for the coldest month with highs around 32.

To purge the lines of air would cost us about 5-6k for the manifolds. We were told that a new boiler or HP would come with this, so it was money down the drain given the age of our boilers. But you guys are telling me that's not the case, and our boilers could be serviceable for years to come with a little maintenance, right? If yes, that would be great!

So before we go ahead and get a manifold installed and purge the air, is there any analysis that I could do with my thermal imaging camera? When I turn it on, I can see the loops and the concrete heating up somewhat evenly, but after several hours they are only at 85 degs at the hottest part (where the loops are). I can post screen shots, if that's helpful. In our last house, we had radiant heating in our garage which had concrete floors also and that seemed to heat up much faster and be considerably warmer to the touch.

BTW there are no similar homes around here to ask for HVAC recommendations unfortunately. The house was built on an old, large cattle ranch. The company that built it does commercial, not residential. We'll extend our search area for HVAC professionals. My guess is we may have to pay someone to travel.
Kendall
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Kendall »

Theseus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:58 am In this forum when people talk about heat pump install, they always say that the installer makes a bigger difference than the brand of the unit. I am not sure how it is to install Mitsubishi or Samsung, but how did you go about finding a reliable installer?
Look up Mitsubishi Diamond Contractors in your area here, and follow up with all the normal due diligence you'd do in hiring any contractor.

I also agree that a home energy audit would be a good starting point.
talzara
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by talzara »

Fire2020 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:01 pm We are in a high desert climate at 6,800 ft ASL. ...

BTW there are no similar homes around here to ask for HVAC recommendations unfortunately. The house was built on an old, large cattle ranch. The company that built it does commercial, not residential. We'll extend our search area for HVAC professionals. My guess is we may have to pay someone to travel.
Outside the Northeast, it can be hard to find HVAC contractors who have experience with hydronic heating. 27% of homes in the Northeast are heated by steam or hot water, but only 3% of homes in the Mountain states are.

If you have 630' of perimeter for 7,200 sqft of floor area, then you have a long and skinny house. Hydronic heating is often used for that application because it has nearly unlimited length. Water is almost incompressible, so it's very easy to pump it over a long distance. It's harder to force hot air hundreds of feet through ducts. Most large hotels have water loops for heating and cooling, and the air ducts are only used for ventilation.

Since houses of similar size and value are more likely to have hydronic heating, that's how you find someone to work on your system. The owners can tell you if they have hydronic and which HVAC contractor they use.
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Fire2020
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Fire2020 »

talzara wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:26 pm
Fire2020 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:01 pm We are in a high desert climate at 6,800 ft ASL. ...

BTW there are no similar homes around here to ask for HVAC recommendations unfortunately. The house was built on an old, large cattle ranch. The company that built it does commercial, not residential. We'll extend our search area for HVAC professionals. My guess is we may have to pay someone to travel.
Outside the Northeast, it can be hard to find HVAC contractors who have experience with hydronic heating. 27% of homes in the Northeast are heated by steam or hot water, but only 3% of homes in the Mountain states are.

If you have 630' of perimeter for 7,200 sqft of floor area, then you have a long and skinny house. Hydronic heating is often used for that application because it has nearly unlimited length. Water is almost incompressible, so it's very easy to pump it over a long distance. It's harder to force hot air hundreds of feet through ducts. Most large hotels have water loops for heating and cooling, and the air ducts are only used for ventilation.

Since houses of similar size and value are more likely to have hydronic heating, that's how you find someone to work on your system. The owners can tell you if they have hydronic and which HVAC contractor they use.
Thanks Talzara, that makes a lot of sense. The house is a U shape with varying depth, but if straightened out, it would be very long and (relatively) thin. Come to think of it, it's like a big heat sink with so much perimeter relative to it's size.
will86
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by will86 »

To purge the lines of air would cost us about 5-6k for the manifolds. We were told that a new boiler or HP would come with this, so it was money down the drain given the age of our boilers. But you guys are telling me that's not the case, and our boilers could be serviceable for years to come with a little maintenance, right? If yes, that would be great!
does adding the manifolds also require some substantial reconfiguration of the boiler and pumps plumbing? I can understand the bidder wanting to spec a new HP also if he is concerned about having a happy customer. Some customers just want "it all to work well" and future service issues with the older boiler might be percieved by some customers as poor job done by the contractor.
So before we go ahead and get a manifold installed and purge the air, is there any analysis that I could do with my thermal imaging camera? When I turn it on, I can see the loops and the concrete heating up somewhat evenly, but after several hours they are only at 85 degs at the hottest part (where the loops are). I can post screen shots, if that's helpful. In our last house, we had radiant heating in our garage which had concrete floors also and that seemed to heat up much faster and be considerably warmer to the touch.
more infloor piping running at lower temps is actually a better install than if you have to run the boiller hotter to get the job done. that said, a system than can run at a lower temp might be a better candidate for a heat pump. I would run the system for a few days to let it stabilize tho, a few hours is not much time to heat the thermal mass.
One way to ascertain the effectiveness of the infloor system is to understand more about how much fuel your infloor boiler uses in the winter compared to the radiator boiler, and was it short cycling?

If you add new manifolds and heat pump to the in floor system, perhaps the old boiler can be put in tandem with the other boiler adding redundency and service life to the radiatior curcuit
zie
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by zie »

If they do commercial stuff, and installed commercial stuff, that could be why your HVAC people are so confused. The commercial space is done quite a bit differently than residential usually is.

I'm guessing your problem(s) are multiple:

1. You have no experience with radiant heating and are confused with how it all works.

In a forced air system(which is what most of the western US uses), it's blowing hot air into a room, and the room feels like it heats up "instantly". In radiant heating, like you have, it's a much much different system. Since you mentioned you have rock and brick walls, it might take a full week or so of being on and circulating water for your house to finally feel warm. You can't just turn it on and off willy nilly and expect "instant" changes.

Also, you mention you have no manifolds, that means it's probably 2 very large systems(1 per boiler), with no way to turn any particular room on or off from the boiler end. This goes in sharp contrast to you saying you have 13 Nest zones. These are incompatible with each other, you can't do this and expect anything useful. The only way these 13 zones would work would be if you had a valve( or manifold) in each zone that you could turn on or off for that zone in Nest land. Of course if that's the case, then you do have something your HVAC people could easily verify the air has been purged from. I don't know which option is correct obviously, but both can't be true and have sanity.

2. Your boilers are probably massively oversized, which isn't really a problem, unless you somehow have the boiler and circulation system(s) tied together so you only circulate water through the system when the boiler is on. If that's the case, that's a huge huge red flag problem.

With 7200 sq ft, it might take days or a week of circulating hot water for your house to fully equalize and feel "warm". The good news is, once it gets warm, it will take a lot less time and energy to keep it warm.

Think of it another way: that 630' of rock and brick walls and your floors all have to heat up long before your room will feel warm and stay feeling warm. I.e. if you touch the inside rock wall in a room, it should not feel cold to the touch. If it does, then you haven't run the heater for nearly enough time. That wall will gradually shift from ambient outside temp to ambient inside temp across the depth of the wall. That means the inside face of the rock wall will feel warm to the touch. Only then should you consider turning down/off the circulation to that area.

I'd be tempted to just turn your thermostats to always keep your system circulating heat across all 13 zones, and to never turn off and keep that up for a day or three and see what happens. Your boilers will come on and off to keep the hot water hot, but you need constant circulation of that hot water through your miles of pipe in the floors to keep the room(s) warm.

The upside, the same is true in reverse, I imagine now as summer comes along, it might be hot outside, but inside is still nice and cool because it takes forever for that hot outside temp to finally get inside the house. Of course once the heat is inside, it will stay inside for a very long time as well, so when it cools off at night, you will still be stupidly hot inside, because that 630' of rock wall will be radiating heat for a very long time.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
Valuethinker
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Valuethinker »

zie wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pm
The upside, the same is true in reverse, I imagine now as summer comes along, it might be hot outside, but inside is still nice and cool because it takes forever for that hot outside temp to finally get inside the house. Of course once the heat is inside, it will stay inside for a very long time as well, so when it cools off at night, you will still be stupidly hot inside, because that 630' of rock wall will be radiating heat for a very long time.
With the proviso that if it is hotter indoors than out, you can open the windows & the room will quickly feel cooler if there is any breeze at all.

A big advantage/ disadvantage of air ventilation systems is the room feels colder/ hotter very quickly.

Your advice about how underfloor radiant systems work is very cogent & helpful. It is why they go naturally with heat pumps ie "low and slow" rather than the "hard and fast" running of forced hot air systems.
zie
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by zie »

Valuethinker wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:04 am
zie wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pm
The upside, the same is true in reverse, I imagine now as summer comes along, it might be hot outside, but inside is still nice and cool because it takes forever for that hot outside temp to finally get inside the house. Of course once the heat is inside, it will stay inside for a very long time as well, so when it cools off at night, you will still be stupidly hot inside, because that 630' of rock wall will be radiating heat for a very long time.
With the proviso that if it is hotter indoors than out, you can open the windows & the room will quickly feel cooler if there is any breeze at all.

A big advantage/ disadvantage of air ventilation systems is the room feels colder/ hotter very quickly.

Your advice about how underfloor radiant systems work is very cogent & helpful. It is why they go naturally with heat pumps ie "low and slow" rather than the "hard and fast" running of forced hot air systems.
I agree with that, since a breeze and a forced air, air conditioner are basically identical except the AC will have more consistent air(and likely lower temperatures).

If one is feeling chilly in a radiant heat environment, put on a sweater or get an IR/fan based portable heater and point it at yourself. Also some bathrooms in radiant houses will have small electric heaters(typically IR based heat) mounted in the ceiling or along the baseboards that one can turn on when showering/bathing. This will add that little extra kick of "instant" warmth one might prefer in those situations.

It's just a totally different living environment being in a radiant based temperature control environment vs a forced air based system. Both are totally valid solutions to the problem. The day to day living is definitely different between them though.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
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Fire2020
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Fire2020 »

zie wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pm If they do commercial stuff, and installed commercial stuff, that could be why your HVAC people are so confused. The commercial space is done quite a bit differently than residential usually is.

I'm guessing your problem(s) are multiple:

1. You have no experience with radiant heating and are confused with how it all works.

In a forced air system(which is what most of the western US uses), it's blowing hot air into a room, and the room feels like it heats up "instantly". In radiant heating, like you have, it's a much much different system. Since you mentioned you have rock and brick walls, it might take a full week or so of being on and circulating water for your house to finally feel warm. You can't just turn it on and off willy nilly and expect "instant" changes.

Also, you mention you have no manifolds, that means it's probably 2 very large systems(1 per boiler), with no way to turn any particular room on or off from the boiler end. This goes in sharp contrast to you saying you have 13 Nest zones. These are incompatible with each other, you can't do this and expect anything useful. The only way these 13 zones would work would be if you had a valve( or manifold) in each zone that you could turn on or off for that zone in Nest land. Of course if that's the case, then you do have something your HVAC people could easily verify the air has been purged from. I don't know which option is correct obviously, but both can't be true and have sanity.

2. Your boilers are probably massively oversized, which isn't really a problem, unless you somehow have the boiler and circulation system(s) tied together so you only circulate water through the system when the boiler is on. If that's the case, that's a huge huge red flag problem.

With 7200 sq ft, it might take days or a week of circulating hot water for your house to fully equalize and feel "warm". The good news is, once it gets warm, it will take a lot less time and energy to keep it warm.

Think of it another way: that 630' of rock and brick walls and your floors all have to heat up long before your room will feel warm and stay feeling warm. I.e. if you touch the inside rock wall in a room, it should not feel cold to the touch. If it does, then you haven't run the heater for nearly enough time. That wall will gradually shift from ambient outside temp to ambient inside temp across the depth of the wall. That means the inside face of the rock wall will feel warm to the touch. Only then should you consider turning down/off the circulation to that area.

I'd be tempted to just turn your thermostats to always keep your system circulating heat across all 13 zones, and to never turn off and keep that up for a day or three and see what happens. Your boilers will come on and off to keep the hot water hot, but you need constant circulation of that hot water through your miles of pipe in the floors to keep the room(s) warm.

The upside, the same is true in reverse, I imagine now as summer comes along, it might be hot outside, but inside is still nice and cool because it takes forever for that hot outside temp to finally get inside the house. Of course once the heat is inside, it will stay inside for a very long time as well, so when it cools off at night, you will still be stupidly hot inside, because that 630' of rock wall will be radiating heat for a very long time.
Our last house (three story log, about 6,000 sqft of heated space) had radiant in floor heating. Bare concrete in the garage, concrete over carpet in the basement and wood floors on the main level.
I agree that heating a whole house from cold takes days with radiant in floor. But I used to keep the garage at about 58 deg unless I was going to do some work on my bikes in there. Then I'd crank it up to 68 which only took about 2-3 hours. The concrete was warm to the touch. That's not what I'm getting in this house. Maybe it's the extra 1/2" of decorative concrete over the slab that makes a difference vs the straight up slab in the garage of the last house? But even after 4-5 hours the concrete is barley luke warm.

At any rate, we left the heat on, everywhere in the new house, for a week straight and it burned through 700 gal of propane in a week. It barely got any warmer. The outlet temp of the boilers was 140 degs and the return pipe was luke warm to the touch.

There are 13 zone valves over the two boiler systems. My HVAC guy told me there was no way to isolate each zone such that he could purge the air out of each individual loop... that there was just one global valve to purge air from the system as a whole. He said he would have to install a manifold in order to blow out the individual loops. So I'm not sure if that's BS or I'm not explaining it correctly?

As you say, on the positive side, we never really have to worry about cooling the house. Even in summer the house never gets above 78 degs. I get how thermal inertia works to help maintain even temps. Very different than insulation.
Diluted Waters
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Diluted Waters »

A couple of points:

1. Your home doesn't sound very well insulated, the number of doors and windows notwithstanding. Even new houses can have poor insulation, especially if the building inspector was good friends with the builder. The stone and concrete has tremendous thermal mass but isn't a good insulator. As other have said, it could take a lot of energy to heat up. Insulation was the best value in improving our home heating and cooling. Depending on the design of your home, filling the attic with a lot of insulation or, if you have a flat roof, a spray foam insulation roof of 4-8" will completely transform the house. Winters will be warmer and summers cooler, even if you do nothing else. After the initial investment, the running costs of insulation are near zero for a huge long-term payoff.

2. 400,000 BTU of heating capacity for a house that's just under twice the square footage of our house sounds insanely high except maybe for super cold climates. Even crazier that it doesn't heat the house well. We heat a 30+ y.o. 4,000 sq. ft. home with an 85% efficient 90,000 BTU gas boiler into a radiant floor with significantly upgraded roof insulation and don't have problem heating, even down into single digit negative (F) winter temperatures in high desert mountain foothills. We have nine doors to the outside, all but one are all glass or double-glass french doors. Your heating capacity sounds oversized. This can result in short-cycling, wasting heat and fuel and efficiency.
zie
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by zie »

Fire2020 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:27 pm But even after 4-5 hours the concrete is barley luke warm.

At any rate, we left the heat on, everywhere in the new house, for a week straight and it burned through 700 gal of propane in a week. It barely got any warmer. The outlet temp of the boilers was 140 degs and the return pipe was luke warm to the touch.

There are 13 zone valves over the two boiler systems. My HVAC guy told me there was no way to isolate each zone such that he could purge the air out of each individual loop... that there was just one global valve to purge air from the system as a whole. He said he would have to install a manifold in order to blow out the individual loops. So I'm not sure if that's BS or I'm not explaining it correctly?

As you say, on the positive side, we never really have to worry about cooling the house. Even in summer the house never gets above 78 degs. I get how thermal inertia works to help maintain even temps. Very different than insulation.
The floors should be luke warm to the touch when it's running, that's normal. That means the heat is leaving the floor and going somewhere. How about the bare rock walls? Are they luke warm to the touch or still cold?

700 gals of propane in a week with no change in ambient temperature inside the house? So you either have a massive propane leak(unlikely inside the house, as your house probably would have exploded by now) or you have a serious heating problem. I can think of a few scenarios that would fit this problem:

1: There is no insulation at all anywhere in the house, such that you are heating the earth under your house plus your thick rock walls plus the air outside the house, etc. You probably can't check under the house easily to see if there is any insulation there, but you probably can check everywhere else to see if there is anything resembling insulation. Don't forget to check the ceiling/attic/roof space.

2: Your pipes don't go where you think they go and/or the zones you think you have you don't really have and something else is getting all of that heat.

3: You have a massive air lock. One way to solve this is to ensure you have an air eliminator installed and do a systemwide purge across all 13 zones at once(which should be totally possible, but annoying). Manifolds might be required to purge individual loops, but you don't really care about that, small bubbles won't cause what you are seeing. With an air eliminator system, assuming you're circulating the water appropriately, the small bubbles will work themselves out over time anyway.

4: You aren't really circulating the water and you are just heating the space where the boilers are.

You have contact with the people that put the system in originally it sounds like. I'd try to get them to come back and verify everything and explain the system to you, so you know how it all works, and hopefully they can make sure everything works as they designed it.

Something is clearly wrong, and it will take some detective work to figure out. You either have to get digging into it and figure it out yourself or hire someone competent that can figure it out for you. That probably means they will have to do an energy study and spend hours and hours at the house doing stuff. This won't be cheap, but for a competent team, they should be able to figure out the problem and figure out a solution.

If I was going to dig into investigating myself, I would get thermometers everywhere I could, including under the house and around the outside edges of the house, along various parts of the floor, ceiling, etc. Don't forget around the boiler and ambient air temps(ideally low along the floor, normal height and up near the ceiling and the roof across the whole house). I'd monitor these religiously over the course of a week/month/season, writing it all down and finding out the patterns.. This should be able to tell you where in the world all that heat is going. 700 gals of propane a week has to be going somewhere. Maybe an outside propane leak? Your job is to figure out where.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
Topic Author
Fire2020
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by Fire2020 »

The first heating guy got the propane company out and they checked for leaks, but didn't find any.

Insulation could be a contributing factor. Some parts of the house have flat ceilings with an attic and others have gabled ceilings.

The rock and brick feel cool/cold to the touch in winter. We have a thermal imagining camera and tried to use that too see where the heat was escaping from, but I like the idea of going outside to better see where heat is escaping.

I believe all the zones go where they are labeled, though we did have some confusion early on with a zone that had sub-zones that had taps to control the flow.
zie
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Re: Is a heat pump the right choice for us?

Post by zie »

So at least you aren't releasing propane to the atmosphere and are not in any danger of blowing up the house or something, that's good news!

If the walls feel cool to the touch, then they aren't getting heated up like the floor, which is not good news for you, that means the cool is coming in faster than the heat from inside can warm up the walls.

The more information you provide, the more in favour I am of it being a complete lack of insulation being the problem.

If you do go outside to check for escaping heat, don't forget the roof. Remember heat tends to rise, so those gabled ceilings if they don't have any insulation in them is probably a very, very good guess as to where all that heat is going.

Assuming you get snow, do you remember if snow tended to pile up on the roof, or did it melt off long before it melted off the ground? If that's the case, then you know that's probably a really good indicator of where at least some of that 700 gallons of propane a week is going.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
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