33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

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Logan Roy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Logan Roy »

Kendall Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:16 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:59 am The thing with business is the world changes very quickly .. I've built three successful businesses .. The first was online clothing retail, which was ludicrously profitable – but gradually became oversaturated, and margins halved periodically.. That's what happens.

Two were in media, and e.g. print media went into decline really quite suddenly, and this brand I'd built was quickly worthless.. I'm lucky I've always been a pessimist, because I never really reinvested in those businesses – the earnings went into cash and stocks. So I've come to think of successful businesses as opportunities to buy a lot more assets, because long-term business success is probably extremely rare. It's often very fleeting.
This post resonates with me. So much so that after 5 years lurking I have registered to comment.
I run a successful print media business, am a pessimist in business and think the success may be fleeting. Finally, I just watched the last episode of Succession.
Cheers Logan!
A pleasure, Kendall! :sharebeer
adave
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by adave »

$10M net worth with no debt is not wealthy?

That is VHNW territory and wealthy by any standard.

But you can’t eat net worth without draining it so cash flow also quite important to your quality of life.

Of course, the ideal is to have both! Lol
Logan Roy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Logan Roy »

muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:58 am
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:36 pm
muffins14 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:51 pm
FreddieFIRE wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:50 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:21 pm I also have started saving for my kids to go to college but feel like college is now a complete waste of money and in 16+ years it will only be worse.
Do you feel this way about degrees related to healthcare or STEM? If so, I would like to hear the logic.
It probably will be worse in 16 years because most people won’t be able to read beyond a 5th grade level. And those who can’t will resent those who can practice “black magic” like mathematics, or read “witch books” like Shakespeare, or riddles, like poetry
The problem nowadays is you can have degrees in English and Philosophy, and still not be able to read or write properly. I'm recalling someone I worked with not long ago specifically with those degrees.

Lecturer friends tell me kids are turning up with much lower standard of numeracy and literacy than 10 years ago. And because something like 70% of colleges are in financial distress, they need the students, they let almost anyone in on clearing, and they have to lower standards to meet the students. Employers agree it would make infinitely more sense to nudge kids into apprenticeships, and leave academia for the 10-20% who are suited to it.
I’m pretty sure that an English major knows how to read and write. I think you’re a little overboard on your criticisms here. I had many friends with English BA and PhD. I assure you they can read and write properly
She was a bright girl, but I kid you not – degrees in English and Philosophy, and she didn't know 'their' from 'they're'. I proofread a few things for her and they always needed quite a bit of rescuing. It's really not that uncommon now. There's a pretty big movement within parts of academia to get back to teaching students how to read, write and think.
Logan Roy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Logan Roy »

muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:32 am
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:34 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:03 pm
Middle class wealth- $10 million?

I’m going to assume this info from 2019 is still more or less accurate: “The minimum net worth of the top 1% of households is roughly $11.1 million. The top 10% have a net worth of about $1.2 million.”
I suppose as an upper level of what's achievable as a white collar worker in today's society. $10m is achievable – but it's not a level of wealth that elevates you to the level of 'rich'. It's sort of an awkward level of wealth, as you don't need to work, but you could buy an entry-level yacht or jet, and then you wouldn't have any money.
What is a level of “rich” if it’s not $10MM?

Are you implying that in order to be “rich” a person need to have certain tangible items that that may actually not even want? Say, a yacht or a jet.

Is it possible for a person to feel rich, but not be rich by another persons measure?
$10m is 'wealthy'. But if you have a wealth manager and some fairly conservative investments, you're probably making a 4% return after fees, which is $400k, and in the UK, you're probably being taxed at 40% (there are workarounds), so you're seeing maybe $240k ($300k if you set yourself up as a ltd company and pay corporation tax).

Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each. You're left with $90k/year. You're not rich. Couple of iPhones, couple of cars, and you'd still have to work a day job.

I felt wealthy by the time I was midway into 6 figures, because I had no responsibilities, and I've been quite adept/lucky with investing. But objectively, there were certainly limits to what I could do. If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner. $10m managed extremely well could bump you up a bit. But it doesn't elevate from the middle classes. It's not an uncommon amount of capital.
If you have 10M and need to pay for school, just do it. Spend more than 4% for a few years. It’s not an ongoing expense. Eventually the kids are done with school and that expense is gone, and you still have your very-large portfolio.
Most people with kids still have a parent who is still working though, because kids are expensive

Your scenario is a little silly again. The vast majority of families with kids do not have 10M, and most are doing just fine making ends meet.
'
Then there's university to pay for, and then there'll probably be a downpayment on a house.. It's true – most private school parents I know are in the £2-10m range; they're still basically middle-class; and yes, they usually both work, and will work until retirement.

That's not 'rich'. This is most people I know. It's also the parents of most people pursuing careers in things like media – where you need to be in a major city after leaving university, and you're not going to be able to pursue these careers if you have to find $2k/month for rent, so the pipeline to bring an affluent middle-class child into the working world is going to run from maybe 10 years old to 25 years old, culminating in buying property in a city like London or New York. And the type of property you can buy your kid will also say whether you're just wealthy, or rich.
adave
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by adave »

$2M - $10M is middle class? Lol
pizzy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by pizzy »

Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:52 pm
muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:32 am
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:34 pm

I suppose as an upper level of what's achievable as a white collar worker in today's society. $10m is achievable – but it's not a level of wealth that elevates you to the level of 'rich'. It's sort of an awkward level of wealth, as you don't need to work, but you could buy an entry-level yacht or jet, and then you wouldn't have any money.
What is a level of “rich” if it’s not $10MM?

Are you implying that in order to be “rich” a person need to have certain tangible items that that may actually not even want? Say, a yacht or a jet.

Is it possible for a person to feel rich, but not be rich by another persons measure?
$10m is 'wealthy'. But if you have a wealth manager and some fairly conservative investments, you're probably making a 4% return after fees, which is $400k, and in the UK, you're probably being taxed at 40% (there are workarounds), so you're seeing maybe $240k ($300k if you set yourself up as a ltd company and pay corporation tax).

Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each. You're left with $90k/year. You're not rich. Couple of iPhones, couple of cars, and you'd still have to work a day job.

I felt wealthy by the time I was midway into 6 figures, because I had no responsibilities, and I've been quite adept/lucky with investing. But objectively, there were certainly limits to what I could do. If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner. $10m managed extremely well could bump you up a bit. But it doesn't elevate from the middle classes. It's not an uncommon amount of capital.
If you have 10M and need to pay for school, just do it. Spend more than 4% for a few years. It’s not an ongoing expense. Eventually the kids are done with school and that expense is gone, and you still have your very-large portfolio.
Most people with kids still have a parent who is still working though, because kids are expensive

Your scenario is a little silly again. The vast majority of families with kids do not have 10M, and most are doing just fine making ends meet.
'
Then there's university to pay for, and then there'll probably be a downpayment on a house.. It's true – most private school parents I know are in the £2-10m range; they're still basically middle-class; and yes, they usually both work, and will work until retirement.

That's not 'rich'. This is most people I know. It's also the parents of most people pursuing careers in things like media – where you need to be in a major city after leaving university, and you're not going to be able to pursue these careers if you have to find $2k/month for rent, so the pipeline to bring an affluent middle-class child into the working world is going to run from maybe 10 years old to 25 years old, culminating in buying property in a city like London or New York. And the type of property you can buy your kid will also say whether you're just wealthy, or rich.
Logan, your reality is not shared by 99% of America.
Vanguard/Fidelity | 76% US Stock | 16% Int'l Stock | 8% Cash
carminered2019
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by carminered2019 »

broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah I guess I am looking for BH's who were on "the track" and decided to take a risk and change their course to pursue business for themselves.
My W-2 income avg. 120K for 25 years and was able to build a 10M NW after 25 years, 5M in stock portfolio and 5M in real estate. Take risk when you are young is ok and don’t regret it.
Last edited by carminered2019 on Tue May 30, 2023 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
stoptothink
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by stoptothink »

pizzy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:53 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:52 pm
muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:32 am
What is a level of “rich” if it’s not $10MM?

Are you implying that in order to be “rich” a person need to have certain tangible items that that may actually not even want? Say, a yacht or a jet.

Is it possible for a person to feel rich, but not be rich by another persons measure?
$10m is 'wealthy'. But if you have a wealth manager and some fairly conservative investments, you're probably making a 4% return after fees, which is $400k, and in the UK, you're probably being taxed at 40% (there are workarounds), so you're seeing maybe $240k ($300k if you set yourself up as a ltd company and pay corporation tax).

Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each. You're left with $90k/year. You're not rich. Couple of iPhones, couple of cars, and you'd still have to work a day job.

I felt wealthy by the time I was midway into 6 figures, because I had no responsibilities, and I've been quite adept/lucky with investing. But objectively, there were certainly limits to what I could do. If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner. $10m managed extremely well could bump you up a bit. But it doesn't elevate from the middle classes. It's not an uncommon amount of capital.
If you have 10M and need to pay for school, just do it. Spend more than 4% for a few years. It’s not an ongoing expense. Eventually the kids are done with school and that expense is gone, and you still have your very-large portfolio.
Most people with kids still have a parent who is still working though, because kids are expensive

Your scenario is a little silly again. The vast majority of families with kids do not have 10M, and most are doing just fine making ends meet.
'
Then there's university to pay for, and then there'll probably be a downpayment on a house.. It's true – most private school parents I know are in the £2-10m range; they're still basically middle-class; and yes, they usually both work, and will work until retirement.

That's not 'rich'. This is most people I know. It's also the parents of most people pursuing careers in things like media – where you need to be in a major city after leaving university, and you're not going to be able to pursue these careers if you have to find $2k/month for rent, so the pipeline to bring an affluent middle-class child into the working world is going to run from maybe 10 years old to 25 years old, culminating in buying property in a city like London or New York. And the type of property you can buy your kid will also say whether you're just wealthy, or rich.
Logan, your reality is not shared by 99% of America.
Maybe it needs to be restated, a NW of $2.2M puts a household in the 98th percentile nationwide. One may not think 5x that makes one "rich" - and that is their prerogative because it is a totally subjective term - but that makes one a major outlier among the population of U.S. adults. "Middle class" refers to middle - 99th percentile isn't in the middle of the bell curve.

I am just going to avoid putting a threshold on the term, because it is clearly pointless.
dividendgrowth
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by dividendgrowth »

https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image

How much wealth gets you into the global top 1%?
https://www.knightfrank.com/wealthrepor ... obal-top-1
Image
halfnine
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by halfnine »

Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
...Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each...
... If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner...
My nephews go to a highly ranked grammar school in the UK and it doesn't cost anything. If the kids are academically strong enough it isn't going to cost 50K to go to a top school. And, if they lack the academics, it's probably a waste of money anyway.

And then by US standards university in the UK is an absolute bargain.
Leesbro63
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Leesbro63 »

dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?
vanuber
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by vanuber »

broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:21 pm What other Bogleheads have done this in the past in their 30's?
I started an architectural practice with my dad two years ago. I immediately doubled my W-2 income. There is a lot more responsibility and I am wearing a lot of hats - accountant, HR, client services. It's been great though. I love the flexibility and control. As an example, I am getting ready to take 8 weeks paid leave when my son is born next month.

On the other hand, my wife is also an entrepreneur and has had a much tougher go at profitability. She is in health and wellness product manufacturing. While she covers expenses and has never taken on debt, her take-home pay is meager. But she loves what she is doing.

I think much of your success will depend on the business or service you are offering. As a type-A in what sounds like financial services, I am sure you will do great things. But that depends on your drive and willingness to take on all the roles and risk that a business owner must handle (or have enough revenue to hire for these positions).

You are likely considering these already, but here are things to consider when ditching your W-2 job (that will likely hurt your MAGI):

1) You will be paying for your own health insurance and it gets expensive, especially with children.
2) Retirement savings vehicles are limited, depending on the size of your company. Likely, you will bid farewell to your 401K and be looking at backdoor Roth conversions.
3) Revenue ebbs and flows and you are more vulnerable to the economy.
4) Taxes will be significant. I would certainly run numbers to consider this.

Along the lines of asset allocation... We have +$1M in assets. We just bought a building this year to house our two businesses. This really made sense for my wife's business as she has certain facility needs and was losing her current rental. We sold stock and invested about $300K in the building and we have about $300K in our house. This was also an opportunity to get rid of our large single-equity holdings, leaving us with $300-400K in index funds.

It was a big leap of faith to move $300K out of stocks and into real estate. And there is a long list of considerations specific to this property that made us feel comfortable about the purchase. This is a real estate investment, but it is also a big investment in our businesses. It gives us both high visibility in our community and will help further establish our businesses. We are renting from ourselves and can control the rent. It will help our taxes. We are in our early 40's and intend to owner-occupy the building for the next 20 years. Hopefully we can retire at that point and sell or continue to rent, while very likely increasing our savings and earning potential along the way.

I say take the risk, especially at your age. I think it is much more rewarding to work for yourself and forge your own path. Don't work your ass off to fund someone else's profits. (Oh, and keep overhead low!)
smitcat
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by smitcat »

RobLyons wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:05 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.

That’s excellent. I could say the same thing about my current profession. But that’s all subjective. We know the statistics about small business success vs W2. Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years.

I guess whatever works for you is good!

I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country. Big money grab with poor highschool guidance for decades. Recently I heard some news about free community college for residents. Can’t remember if that’s Boston or where but it’s a great start.
"Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years."
It would be great if you could spend some time at an SBA office (or SCORE or something similar) to know the real data and what it actually means.
Many of those business's did not fail they shut down - every one that is set up for a home flip or similar temporary business does this regularly. In addition to that any business that is sold (like our 3 a few years back) is also listed as discontinued. In our experience many of the small business that fail are due to substance abuse, divorce, large medical issues, etc.
We were both in corporate jobs for many years as well as in our own small business - we have seen both sides over many years.

"I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country"
Sorry I did not say that, wrong person.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:42 pm
muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:58 am
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:36 pm
muffins14 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:51 pm
FreddieFIRE wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:50 pm

Do you feel this way about degrees related to healthcare or STEM? If so, I would like to hear the logic.
It probably will be worse in 16 years because most people won’t be able to read beyond a 5th grade level. And those who can’t will resent those who can practice “black magic” like mathematics, or read “witch books” like Shakespeare, or riddles, like poetry
The problem nowadays is you can have degrees in English and Philosophy, and still not be able to read or write properly. I'm recalling someone I worked with not long ago specifically with those degrees.

Lecturer friends tell me kids are turning up with much lower standard of numeracy and literacy than 10 years ago. And because something like 70% of colleges are in financial distress, they need the students, they let almost anyone in on clearing, and they have to lower standards to meet the students. Employers agree it would make infinitely more sense to nudge kids into apprenticeships, and leave academia for the 10-20% who are suited to it.
I’m pretty sure that an English major knows how to read and write. I think you’re a little overboard on your criticisms here. I had many friends with English BA and PhD. I assure you they can read and write properly
She was a bright girl, but I kid you not – degrees in English and Philosophy, and she didn't know 'their' from 'they're'. I proofread a few things for her and they always needed quite a bit of rescuing. It's really not that uncommon now. There's a pretty big movement within parts of academia to get back to teaching students how to read, write and think.
Do you think they’re might be a person in every known field of study who occasionally fails to proofread there “things”?

My degree is in something other then English and Philosophy and sometimes I fail to proofread what I wrote.
Being wrong compounds forever.
coachd50
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by coachd50 »

Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:42 pm

She was a bright girl, but I kid you not – degrees in English and Philosophy, and she didn't know 'their' from 'they're'. I proofread a few things for her and they always needed quite a bit of rescuing. It's really not that uncommon now. There's a pretty big movement within parts of academia to get back to teaching students how to read, write and think.
You need to proofread this. Philosophy should not be capitalized. Oh the Irony.
pizzy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by pizzy »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:52 am
Do you think they’re might be a person in every known field of study who occasionally fails to proofread there “things”?

My degree is in something other then English and Philosophy and sometimes I fail to proofread what I wrote.
"A little too ironic, don't ya think?" - AM
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TinyHouse
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by TinyHouse »

broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:20 pm The business ventures are real estate sales and bookkeeping at the moment….
I’m all for starting your own business and I’m not a fan of college these days, but your businesses ventures mentioned above are volatile and unstable. That being said, you may have already won the game, so it just depends on if you live within your means and don’t lose your shorts.

You aren’t going to get much love deviating from the Bogle principles here. Most people here are/were employees for the man, and very happy to be so.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

pizzy wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:44 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:52 am
Do you think they’re might be a person in every known field of study who occasionally fails to proofread there “things”?

My degree is in something other then English and Philosophy and sometimes I fail to proofread what I wrote.
"A little too ironic, don't ya think?" - AM
Your missed the “they’re” before that one and also the “then”.

Even proofreaders looking for mistakes miss things.
Being wrong compounds forever.
pizzy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by pizzy »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:57 am
pizzy wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:44 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:52 am
Do you think they’re might be a person in every known field of study who occasionally fails to proofread there “things”?

My degree is in something other then English and Philosophy and sometimes I fail to proofread what I wrote.
"A little too ironic, don't ya think?" - AM
Your missed the “they’re” before that one and also the “then”.

Even proofreaders looking for mistakes miss things.
I fell for your robust comedy routine.
Vanguard/Fidelity | 76% US Stock | 16% Int'l Stock | 8% Cash
dividendgrowth
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by dividendgrowth »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?
Here are two data points from St. Louis Fed:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WFRBLTP1246

https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2022/10 ... ouseholds/
GP813
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by GP813 »

adave wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:37 pm $10M net worth with no debt is not wealthy?

That is VHNW territory and wealthy by any standard.

But you can’t eat net worth without draining it so cash flow also quite important to your quality of life.

Of course, the ideal is to have both! Lol
A $10 million networth is wealthy, people with the top 1% of net worth in the U.S. in 2022 had $10,815,000 in net worth. A networth of $2,472,000 will put a household in the top 2%.

UHNW(ultra high networth) is considered $30 million. I think billionaire propaganda has made some people in the general public deluded about what wealthy is but there are only about 750 estimated billionaires in the United States so statistically they are still quite the anomaly.
unwitting_gulag wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:54 pm
It's a play on "The Millionaire Next Door", the concept being, that rather ordinary-folk can accumulate a handful of millions, whether by BH-style index fund investing, or some parallel means. The theme is a sober, conservative investment, or running of a small business. Towards the latter, compare a small legal firm, that makes its money by representing DUI defendants, divorce cases, maybe small-time tax disputes... vs. a Silicon-Valley style of start-up, that seeks to become a "unicorn" before going IPO.

As for the 1%, we have to remember, that with some 330M American residents, math says that there must be 3.3M within the top 1%. That's a lot. When I think of genuine wealth, I think of an aristocracy. How many Peers of the Realm were there in Queen Elizabeth I's court? How many noblemen were there in the time of Louis XIV? How many grand landowners in Czarist Russia? More properly, what was the ratio of such personages, to the total citizenry? Maybe 0.01%? Well, 0.01% of 330M is 33,000. What does it take, to enter that exalted echelon? I'm guessing, at least $100M per person, net-worth.

Capitalism if it works should make more people wealthy, comparing today to the old monarchies of Europe doesn't really make any sense to me. And one could convincingly argue that it was the Industrial Revolution that blunted the monarchies of Europe.
Last edited by GP813 on Tue May 30, 2023 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
muffins14
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by muffins14 »

Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:52 pm
muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:32 am
Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:34 pm

I suppose as an upper level of what's achievable as a white collar worker in today's society. $10m is achievable – but it's not a level of wealth that elevates you to the level of 'rich'. It's sort of an awkward level of wealth, as you don't need to work, but you could buy an entry-level yacht or jet, and then you wouldn't have any money.
What is a level of “rich” if it’s not $10MM?

Are you implying that in order to be “rich” a person need to have certain tangible items that that may actually not even want? Say, a yacht or a jet.

Is it possible for a person to feel rich, but not be rich by another persons measure?
$10m is 'wealthy'. But if you have a wealth manager and some fairly conservative investments, you're probably making a 4% return after fees, which is $400k, and in the UK, you're probably being taxed at 40% (there are workarounds), so you're seeing maybe $240k ($300k if you set yourself up as a ltd company and pay corporation tax).

Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each. You're left with $90k/year. You're not rich. Couple of iPhones, couple of cars, and you'd still have to work a day job.

I felt wealthy by the time I was midway into 6 figures, because I had no responsibilities, and I've been quite adept/lucky with investing. But objectively, there were certainly limits to what I could do. If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner. $10m managed extremely well could bump you up a bit. But it doesn't elevate from the middle classes. It's not an uncommon amount of capital.
If you have 10M and need to pay for school, just do it. Spend more than 4% for a few years. It’s not an ongoing expense. Eventually the kids are done with school and that expense is gone, and you still have your very-large portfolio.
Most people with kids still have a parent who is still working though, because kids are expensive

Your scenario is a little silly again. The vast majority of families with kids do not have 10M, and most are doing just fine making ends meet.
'
Then there's university to pay for, and then there'll probably be a downpayment on a house.. It's true – most private school parents I know are in the £2-10m range; they're still basically middle-class; and yes, they usually both work, and will work until retirement.

That's not 'rich'. This is most people I know. It's also the parents of most people pursuing careers in things like media – where you need to be in a major city after leaving university, and you're not going to be able to pursue these careers if you have to find $2k/month for rent, so the pipeline to bring an affluent middle-class child into the working world is going to run from maybe 10 years old to 25 years old, culminating in buying property in a city like London or New York. And the type of property you can buy your kid will also say whether you're just wealthy, or rich.
Most people do not buy apartments for their kids, or even help with down payments. Many of the working people I know in NYC did not come from money that paid for their housing. They worked and paid rent.

I realize many do have parental help though
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
GP813
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by GP813 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
Logan Roy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Logan Roy »

muffins14 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:12 am
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:52 pm
muffins14 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:05 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:53 am
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:32 am
What is a level of “rich” if it’s not $10MM?

Are you implying that in order to be “rich” a person need to have certain tangible items that that may actually not even want? Say, a yacht or a jet.

Is it possible for a person to feel rich, but not be rich by another persons measure?
$10m is 'wealthy'. But if you have a wealth manager and some fairly conservative investments, you're probably making a 4% return after fees, which is $400k, and in the UK, you're probably being taxed at 40% (there are workarounds), so you're seeing maybe $240k ($300k if you set yourself up as a ltd company and pay corporation tax).

Then you've got three kids in private school, at $50k each. You're left with $90k/year. You're not rich. Couple of iPhones, couple of cars, and you'd still have to work a day job.

I felt wealthy by the time I was midway into 6 figures, because I had no responsibilities, and I've been quite adept/lucky with investing. But objectively, there were certainly limits to what I could do. If I wanted two kids in top schools, I'd need a pretty wealthy partner. $10m managed extremely well could bump you up a bit. But it doesn't elevate from the middle classes. It's not an uncommon amount of capital.
If you have 10M and need to pay for school, just do it. Spend more than 4% for a few years. It’s not an ongoing expense. Eventually the kids are done with school and that expense is gone, and you still have your very-large portfolio.
Most people with kids still have a parent who is still working though, because kids are expensive

Your scenario is a little silly again. The vast majority of families with kids do not have 10M, and most are doing just fine making ends meet.
'
Then there's university to pay for, and then there'll probably be a downpayment on a house.. It's true – most private school parents I know are in the £2-10m range; they're still basically middle-class; and yes, they usually both work, and will work until retirement.

That's not 'rich'. This is most people I know. It's also the parents of most people pursuing careers in things like media – where you need to be in a major city after leaving university, and you're not going to be able to pursue these careers if you have to find $2k/month for rent, so the pipeline to bring an affluent middle-class child into the working world is going to run from maybe 10 years old to 25 years old, culminating in buying property in a city like London or New York. And the type of property you can buy your kid will also say whether you're just wealthy, or rich.
Most people do not buy apartments for their kids, or even help with down payments. Many of the working people I know in NYC did not come from money that paid for their housing. They worked and paid rent.

I realize many do have parental help though
Precisely. And what we're delineating is typical middle-class parents from rich parents. When you work in media or fashion these days, you'll be around a lot of double-barrelled surnames and private schools, because it's virtually impossible to live in a city like London or NY as an actor or journalist unless you've already got a career.
Leesbro63
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Leesbro63 »

GP813 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
I'd still like to see some other citation that $25M is .1%.
pizzy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by pizzy »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:28 am
GP813 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
I'd still like to see some other citation that $25M is .1%.
Those St Louis Fed links didn’t suffice?
Vanguard/Fidelity | 76% US Stock | 16% Int'l Stock | 8% Cash
muffins14
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by muffins14 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?
$25M is a tremendous amount of money
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
dividendgrowth
Posts: 7
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by dividendgrowth »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:28 am
GP813 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
I'd still like to see some other citation that $25M is .1%.
Other than the St Louis Fed data cited above, here is their 2023 report:
https://content.knightfrank.com/resourc ... t-2023.pdf

The graph with .1% and USA $25M cites their model. Their model is defined here:
https://www.knightfrank.com/wealthrepor ... zing-model

Measuring the world’s wealth
Taking established wealth estimation models (Davies et al. (2017)) as our starting point, we have estimated levels of net wealth on a location-by-location basis using balance sheet data, where available, on households’ financial and non-financial wealth.

Where data was not available, estimates were generated using econometric techniques. Utilising estimated Gini coefficients, we then drew the wealth distribution curve for each location, calibrating this with our own data as well as other industry standard sources.

This allows us to estimate the number of individuals in each location in the following wealth bands:

HNWIs – those with net wealth of US$1 million or more
UHNWIs – those with net wealth of US$30 million or more
billionaires – those with net wealth of US$1 billion or more.

When talking about net wealth, we now include primary residences and second homes not owned primarily as investments, as this gives a more accurate representation of total wealth. Individuals pass wealth on via the places they live, and borrow against them to fund their investments. In addition, when house prices are rising consumers can experience a positive wealth effect, supporting higher levels of consumption, and – of course – vice versa.
jarjarM
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by jarjarM »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:28 am
GP813 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
I'd still like to see some other citation that $25M is .1%.
The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
Leesbro63
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Leesbro63 »

jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:28 am
GP813 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:20 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:54 am
dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 am https://www.knightfrank.com/research/ar ... wealthiest

Using the Knight Frank Wealth Sizing Model, we reveal how deep your pockets need to be to join the wealthiest 0.1% in selected countries and territories.

Image
Hard to imagine that “only” $25M puts you in the top .1% in the USA. Is this really correct?

Yes, this is why $30 million is considered UHNW(ultra high networth) by wealth researchers.
I'd still like to see some other citation that $25M is .1%.
The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
jarjarM
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by jarjarM »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
It's hard to know what's the methodology knightfrank is using. For me, I would trust the Fed data more, they don't really have an economic incentive to do either raise or lower that #.
Leesbro63
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Leesbro63 »

jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:19 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
It's hard to know what's the methodology knightfrank is using. For me, I would trust the Fed data more, they don't really have an economic incentive to do either raise or lower that #.
I get it. But 25 or 38 is actually a big discrepancy. And it circles back to my original thought that $25M sounds low to be .1%.
pizzy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by pizzy »

jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:19 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
It's hard to know what's the methodology knightfrank is using. For me, I would trust the Fed data more, they don't really have an economic incentive to do either raise or lower that #.
For one it appears they are saying "individual" and not "household". By definition, individual would be lower than household (for all households > 1 individual).
Vanguard/Fidelity | 76% US Stock | 16% Int'l Stock | 8% Cash
dividendgrowth
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by dividendgrowth »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:21 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:19 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".
At the time of this writing, each of the wealthiest 0.1% of households had at least $38 million worth of assets
That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
It's hard to know what's the methodology knightfrank is using. For me, I would trust the Fed data more, they don't really have an economic incentive to do either raise or lower that #.
I get it. But 25 or 38 is actually a big discrepancy. And it circles back to my original thought that $25M sounds low to be .1%.
Princeton worked with the Treasury to provide this 2023 working paper, the threshold in 2016 was $17million to enter the 0.1% in USA.

https://economics.princeton.edu/working ... s-returns/

Image

https://zidar.princeton.edu/publication ... axing-rich
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Candor
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Candor »

carminered2019 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah I guess I am looking for BH's who were on "the track" and decided to take a risk and change their course to pursue business for themselves.
My W-2 income avg. 120K for 25 years and was able to build a 10M NW after 25 years, 5M in stock portfolio and 5M in real estate. Take risk when you are young is ok and don’t regret it.
My starting salary was 40K in 1995, it peaked-out at 120K per year for the last 3 working years and was able to achieve 10M NW in 25 years.

carminered2019 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am time, high saving rate and willing to take risk are what you need you need to reach or blow away the goal posts.

I blew away the goal post with a NW in the 8-digit number making average W-2 income of 100K per year for 25 years. My saving rate was about 70% of my net income.
carminered2019 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:39 pm Age: 53, retired
Stock portfolio: 4.8M
Real-estate portfolio: 4.8M
Target stock portfolio (not including real estate): 10M by age 65, 20M age 75 and 40M by age 85

Total NW was build based on an average W-2 salary of 92K/year for 25 years.
So which is it?
The fool, with all his other faults, has this also - he is always getting ready to live. - Seneca Epistles < c. 65AD
stoptothink
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by stoptothink »

Candor wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:39 pm
carminered2019 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah I guess I am looking for BH's who were on "the track" and decided to take a risk and change their course to pursue business for themselves.
My W-2 income avg. 120K for 25 years and was able to build a 10M NW after 25 years, 5M in stock portfolio and 5M in real estate. Take risk when you are young is ok and don’t regret it.
My starting salary was 40K in 1995, it peaked-out at 120K per year for the last 3 working years and was able to achieve 10M NW in 25 years.

carminered2019 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am time, high saving rate and willing to take risk are what you need you need to reach or blow away the goal posts.

I blew away the goal post with a NW in the 8-digit number making average W-2 income of 100K per year for 25 years. My saving rate was about 70% of my net income.
carminered2019 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:39 pm Age: 53, retired
Stock portfolio: 4.8M
Real-estate portfolio: 4.8M
Target stock portfolio (not including real estate): 10M by age 65, 20M age 75 and 40M by age 85

Total NW was build based on an average W-2 salary of 92K/year for 25 years.
So which is it?
:shock: While I can make some estimates, I wouldn't even bother to act like I know what my (or "our") average income is over a period of time is or our exact savings rate or how much we have at specific points in time, etc. - I know what we make and how much we have now - because I'd probably make some major accounting errors like it appears Carminered has/does. I think we should just take the underlying point: that they never were a super high-earner, but accumulated a big nest egg due to high savings and investing in things like real estate (and it looks like individual stocks).
Leesbro63
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Leesbro63 »

dividendgrowth wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:36 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:21 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:19 pm
Leesbro63 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
jarjarM wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:59 am The link that posted by dividendgrowth from Federal Reserve mentioned $38M as the limit for 0.1% of "household".



That seems to match with the survey of consumer finance, sponsored by FED, and matches with personal experience living in the bay area. Even here, there's only handful of ppl with >$30mil networth.
So how do we reconcile if it’s $25M or $38M?
It's hard to know what's the methodology knightfrank is using. For me, I would trust the Fed data more, they don't really have an economic incentive to do either raise or lower that #.
I get it. But 25 or 38 is actually a big discrepancy. And it circles back to my original thought that $25M sounds low to be .1%.
Princeton worked with the Treasury to provide this 2023 working paper, the threshold in 2016 was $17million to enter the 0.1% in USA.

https://economics.princeton.edu/working ... s-returns/

Image

https://zidar.princeton.edu/publication ... axing-rich
So if $17M was .1% in 2016, probably the 25M is about the right number now. I think.
jumbo shrimp
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by jumbo shrimp »

I have found this thread fascinating. Similar to the OP I'm in my early 30s as well. I've been interested in learning what others do to start their own business and not work for someone else. For me though, I am just not interested in so much that is required to start a business. I'm switching to software engineering soon and I love building systems. Even on bad days I have a high tolerance to do the work as I have experience already and transferable skills. Besides this, I'm not interested in customer facing work, sales, marketing, fund raising, any physical labor, etc. I guess W-2 works perfectly to maximize my own position as an "entrepreneur" and the companies I work at are considered clients.

Maybe I'm wrong about all this. I would like to have more control over when I work. Maybe I can find the answer after more experience is acquired.
TimmyD
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by TimmyD »

Logan Roy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:34 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:03 pm
unwitting_gulag wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 11:41 pm There are two kinds of wealth; middle-class wealth, and spectacular wealth. Middle class wealth (a handful of millions, maybe $10M) is buildable in today’s dollars within a normal career-length (call it 30-40 years), a “normal” professional’s salary, and the S&P 500 index fund. $100M is however unreachable with that strategy. A different strategy would be needed. Unfortunately, that strategy has high chances of blowing-up… not just underperforming, but failing… spectacularly.

Perhaps a core BH tenet would be, to settle for mere middle-class wealth, lest one end up doing worse, by aiming for spectacular wealth?

Most of us would presumably concede, that some small amount of “play money” is acceptable…. Whether it’s invested in individual stocks, private equity, or some kind of greater-fool-theory type of investment (or gamble). But how much? If one doesn’t feel squeamish about losing the entire amount, then said amount is probably OK to stake.

As for W2 vs. business-owner – that’s entirely a matter of personality. Currently I work in a start-up, as a co-founder… and hate it. Utterly not for me. I was happier formerly, as a government employee.
Middle class wealth- $10 million?

I’m going to assume this info from 2019 is still more or less accurate: “The minimum net worth of the top 1% of households is roughly $11.1 million. The top 10% have a net worth of about $1.2 million.”
I suppose as an upper level of what's achievable as a white collar worker in today's society. $10m is achievable – but it's not a level of wealth that elevates you to the level of 'rich'. It's sort of an awkward level of wealth, as you don't need to work, but you could buy an entry-level yacht or jet, and then you wouldn't have any money.
You and your family ..... you're not serious people.
carminered2019
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by carminered2019 »

Candor wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:39 pm
carminered2019 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah I guess I am looking for BH's who were on "the track" and decided to take a risk and change their course to pursue business for themselves.
My W-2 income avg. 120K for 25 years and was able to build a 10M NW after 25 years, 5M in stock portfolio and 5M in real estate. Take risk when you are young is ok and don’t regret it.
My starting salary was 40K in 1995, it peaked-out at 120K per year for the last 3 working years and was able to achieve 10M NW in 25 years.

carminered2019 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am time, high saving rate and willing to take risk are what you need you need to reach or blow away the goal posts.

I blew away the goal post with a NW in the 8-digit number making average W-2 income of 100K per year for 25 years. My saving rate was about 70% of my net income.
carminered2019 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:39 pm Age: 53, retired
Stock portfolio: 4.8M
Real-estate portfolio: 4.8M
Target stock portfolio (not including real estate): 10M by age 65, 20M age 75 and 40M by age 85

Total NW was build based on an average W-2 salary of 92K/year for 25 years.
So which is it?
Just looked up Social security site, added up all the W-2 earnings and it came out to $3,050,280.65 if you like to be exact. My stock portfolio moves up and down -900K to +900K per year so the peak was 5.3M and low was 3.8M
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Candor
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Candor »

carminered2019 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:18 pm
Candor wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:39 pm
carminered2019 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:11 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:21 pm Yeah I guess I am looking for BH's who were on "the track" and decided to take a risk and change their course to pursue business for themselves.
My W-2 income avg. 120K for 25 years and was able to build a 10M NW after 25 years, 5M in stock portfolio and 5M in real estate. Take risk when you are young is ok and don’t regret it.
My starting salary was 40K in 1995, it peaked-out at 120K per year for the last 3 working years and was able to achieve 10M NW in 25 years.

carminered2019 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am time, high saving rate and willing to take risk are what you need you need to reach or blow away the goal posts.

I blew away the goal post with a NW in the 8-digit number making average W-2 income of 100K per year for 25 years. My saving rate was about 70% of my net income.
carminered2019 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:39 pm Age: 53, retired
Stock portfolio: 4.8M
Real-estate portfolio: 4.8M
Target stock portfolio (not including real estate): 10M by age 65, 20M age 75 and 40M by age 85

Total NW was build based on an average W-2 salary of 92K/year for 25 years.
So which is it?
Just looked up Social security site, added up all the W-2 earnings and it came out to $3,050,280.65 if you like to be exact. My stock portfolio moves up and down -900K to +900K per year so the peak was 5.3M and low was 3.8M
So it is an average of $122k/yr. That is a significant difference from an average of $92k/yr and certainly from starting at $40k/yr and peaking at $120k/yr as you stated previously but still quite an accomplishment. Thanks for the clarification.
The fool, with all his other faults, has this also - he is always getting ready to live. - Seneca Epistles < c. 65AD
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White Coat Investor
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by White Coat Investor »

Toured the Palace of Versailles today. It would apparently cost $2 billion to build today. We spent most of the day and only managed to quickly see the house and half the grounds...using a bicycle. Quite a house, that.

It does make the guillotine seem a little more reasonable after touring it. If you ever feel a need to be put in your place, it's something to see. You may never feel rich again.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
chassis
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by chassis »

broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:21 pm Hello BH's,

I was a finance/real estate major in school and graduated in 2013. Found this blog when I started my own (should have continued it). As much as I love the simplicity of a BH strategy I am getting tempted to take more risk.

While I have a portion of my families net worth in the BH strategy for the long term I have drifted from the core principals and it has accelerated our wealth.

We own three rentals, invest in PE, and then the remainder is in the BH portfolio (no bonds).

I love the BH strategy for those who are looking to have a traditional retirement. I think it has a great probability for success. I am starting to drift from the strategy personally though for anything beyond my BH portfolio. I want to have CONTROL and OWNERSHIP, not be at the mercy of the shareholders to approve compensation increases.

Currently we are doing employer match for 401K's, ROTH IRA's, then some extra in a 529. The rest is being invested in taxable and short term savings to start new business ventures.

In the last 3 years we have "seen the light" with getting away from W-2 and moving to business ownership. The amount of money we have made in business vs. the time and effort we have put in at W-2's is laughable.

We are type A people and dedicated to anything we do. I am leaving my W-2 next year and diving into full time entrepreneurship.

What other Bogleheads have done this in the past in their 30's?

I also have started saving for my kids to go to college but feel like college is now a complete waste of money and in 16+ years it will only be worse. Does anyone feel the same!? I really think there is massive upside for families willing to start a business right now who have the smarts from a decade + of business experience.
Go for it. Bear in mind that responses you receive on this forum may come from posters three times your age. Well meaning, but out of touch.
Maverick3320
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Maverick3320 »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:23 am
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.
I’m not surprised.

We’d like to sell our business but it’s going to be next to impossible to get a value that makes selling anything but a less-than-ideal situation. In our case I think it would be hard to get a value that equals last years profits. One years profits!

Also, for those who think business owners are working 70 hours a week like the stereotype on TV, we spent @ 100 nights out of town in 2022, and that is in addition to the recreating we did close to home.
Perhaps the value of the business would be higher if you had spent 70 hours a week working?
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broncocountry25
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by broncocountry25 »

chassis wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:33 pm
broncocountry25 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:21 pm Hello BH's,

I was a finance/real estate major in school and graduated in 2013. Found this blog when I started my own (should have continued it). As much as I love the simplicity of a BH strategy I am getting tempted to take more risk.

While I have a portion of my families net worth in the BH strategy for the long term I have drifted from the core principals and it has accelerated our wealth.

We own three rentals, invest in PE, and then the remainder is in the BH portfolio (no bonds).

I love the BH strategy for those who are looking to have a traditional retirement. I think it has a great probability for success. I am starting to drift from the strategy personally though for anything beyond my BH portfolio. I want to have CONTROL and OWNERSHIP, not be at the mercy of the shareholders to approve compensation increases.

Currently we are doing employer match for 401K's, ROTH IRA's, then some extra in a 529. The rest is being invested in taxable and short term savings to start new business ventures.

In the last 3 years we have "seen the light" with getting away from W-2 and moving to business ownership. The amount of money we have made in business vs. the time and effort we have put in at W-2's is laughable.

We are type A people and dedicated to anything we do. I am leaving my W-2 next year and diving into full time entrepreneurship.

What other Bogleheads have done this in the past in their 30's?

I also have started saving for my kids to go to college but feel like college is now a complete waste of money and in 16+ years it will only be worse. Does anyone feel the same!? I really think there is massive upside for families willing to start a business right now who have the smarts from a decade + of business experience.
Go for it. Bear in mind that responses you receive on this forum may come from posters three times your age. Well meaning, but out of touch.
Yeah I am feeling that with the responses. Which have drifted into a whole other topic. I think a lot of people on this forum are in a great place financially in life, they aren't going to switch it up and take more risk with their career.

For me I have a lot more in the tank for work and want to get out of the corporate world well before retirement.

I already have a lot of great things set up in my life. Family home, retirement savings that can build in the background (I would not risk), some rentals I can sell off if needed. A wife that is 100% on board with me making a change even at the expense of letting go of my salary while I transition.

I want to use some brokerage cash to take a shot at a buying a small biz and then building it up further.

Some links for those interested in my main point of this post.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-416

https://www.amazon.com/Buy-Then-Build-A ... B07JKM2F5Q
coachd50
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by coachd50 »

broncocountry25 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:56 pm

Yeah I am feeling that with the responses. Which have drifted into a whole other topic. I think a lot of people on this forum are in a great place financially in life, they aren't going to switch it up and take more risk with their career.

For me I have a lot more in the tank for work and want to get out of the corporate world well before retirement.

I already have a lot of great things set up in my life. Family home, retirement savings that can build in the background (I would not risk), some rentals I can sell off if needed. A wife that is 100% on board with me making a change even at the expense of letting go of my salary while I transition.

I want to use some brokerage cash to take a shot at a buying a small biz and then building it up further.

Some links for those interested in my main point of this post.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/money-416

https://www.amazon.com/Buy-Then-Build-A ... B07JKM2F5Q
I just don't see where anyone is trying to suggest you do otherwise in this thread. I don't see any posts saying "No, work for someone else. Collect your salary. Don't extend yourself".
YeahBuddy
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by YeahBuddy »

smitcat wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:40 am
RobLyons wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:05 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.

That’s excellent. I could say the same thing about my current profession. But that’s all subjective. We know the statistics about small business success vs W2. Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years.

I guess whatever works for you is good!

I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country. Big money grab with poor highschool guidance for decades. Recently I heard some news about free community college for residents. Can’t remember if that’s Boston or where but it’s a great start.
"Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years."
It would be great if you could spend some time at an SBA office (or SCORE or something similar) to know the real data and what it actually means.
Many of those business's did not fail they shut down - every one that is set up for a home flip or similar temporary business does this regularly. In addition to that any business that is sold (like our 3 a few years back) is also listed as discontinued. In our experience many of the small business that fail are due to substance abuse, divorce, large medical issues, etc.
We were both in corporate jobs for many years as well as in our own small business - we have seen both sides over many years.

"I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country"
Sorry I did not say that, wrong person.

Well I'm unable to spend the time so is there a link you could provide to educate me? The exact wording is the businesses that "failed" and that's from investopedia and data from BLS.

And my mistake, OP stated he believes colleges are mostly a waste of money.
Light weight baby!
smitcat
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by smitcat »

RobLyons wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:22 am
smitcat wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:40 am
RobLyons wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 4:05 pm
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.

That’s excellent. I could say the same thing about my current profession. But that’s all subjective. We know the statistics about small business success vs W2. Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years.

I guess whatever works for you is good!

I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country. Big money grab with poor highschool guidance for decades. Recently I heard some news about free community college for residents. Can’t remember if that’s Boston or where but it’s a great start.
"Something like half of all small businesses fail within 5 years."
It would be great if you could spend some time at an SBA office (or SCORE or something similar) to know the real data and what it actually means.
Many of those business's did not fail they shut down - every one that is set up for a home flip or similar temporary business does this regularly. In addition to that any business that is sold (like our 3 a few years back) is also listed as discontinued. In our experience many of the small business that fail are due to substance abuse, divorce, large medical issues, etc.
We were both in corporate jobs for many years as well as in our own small business - we have seen both sides over many years.

"I also share your sentiment that college is mostly a huge waste in this country"
Sorry I did not say that, wrong person.

Well I'm unable to spend the time so is there a link you could provide to educate me? The exact wording is the businesses that "failed" and that's from investopedia and data from BLS.

And my mistake, OP stated he believes colleges are mostly a waste of money.
I remember you had asked about other job alternatives in other threads and it's not that time consuming to find out more about the options.
Most of what I learned was at the SBA but it was also easy to get better data when I was adjunct teaching a college course on 'entrepreneurship' at Stonybrook University. After I attended a number of meetings with many small business owners at the SBA it became very clear that small business was not nearly as difficult or competitive as one would think.
smitcat
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by smitcat »

Maverick3320 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:23 am
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.
I’m not surprised.

We’d like to sell our business but it’s going to be next to impossible to get a value that makes selling anything but a less-than-ideal situation. In our case I think it would be hard to get a value that equals last years profits. One years profits!

Also, for those who think business owners are working 70 hours a week like the stereotype on TV, we spent @ 100 nights out of town in 2022, and that is in addition to the recreating we did close to home.
Perhaps the value of the business would be higher if you had spent 70 hours a week working?
I generally doubt it in most cases.... and in this specific case it is not at all likely to make a large difference.
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: 33 - 1.4M Net Worth Drifting From Boglehead Strategy

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

Maverick3320 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:53 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:23 am
smitcat wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 9:06 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:48 pm I'm 42 and I tried many different avenues before I found the Boglehead strategy. Since that time, I've encountered many who believed their way was better. Either investment strategy or small business owners. Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth.

I don't intend to do anything differently. I will continue with my W-2. I have much more free time than many business owners I know and that's worth a lot to me.
"Many did well for a short period and then things came back to earth."
We wish that we started our own business's earlier than we actually did. While we were in our small businesses for 15+ years the earlier start would have been great. After selling a few years back the new owners are continuing to do really well.
I’m not surprised.

We’d like to sell our business but it’s going to be next to impossible to get a value that makes selling anything but a less-than-ideal situation. In our case I think it would be hard to get a value that equals last years profits. One years profits!

Also, for those who think business owners are working 70 hours a week like the stereotype on TV, we spent @ 100 nights out of town in 2022, and that is in addition to the recreating we did close to home.
Perhaps the value of the business would be higher if you had spent 70 hours a week working?
I’m retired. I don’t even work one hour a week.
Being wrong compounds forever.
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