Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

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thedaybeforetoday
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

Perhaps in preparation for meeting with town officials, you could circulate a petition for signatures that concerned neighbors and members of the HOA could sign, so your not alone or in a smallish group when expressing concerns and dealing with town officials?
Would the installation of a median with attractive plantings every 100 feet or so narrow the road and slow traffic down?
Please keep us posted; issue for many.
Thanks
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feehater
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by feehater »

My favorite speed calming device I’ve only seen once ever…in a residential neighborhood near the DC zoo. There is a stoplight at the bottom of a hill (completely unnecessary, just for a crosswalk and no cross street). Halfway down the hill, there is a device that tells you your speed and very clearly states (in fewer words): if you are speeding, the upcoming light will turn red and make you lose more time than if you just follow the speed limit.
BernardShakey
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by BernardShakey »

Swansea wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:55 am
BernardShakey wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 pm I'd try to get a meeting with chief of police. Maybe someone you know knows someone, etc. Ask them to post a motorcycle officer at a strategic location and start issuing tickets. Saw that I'm my street ---- came a day or two a month for a few months and worked pretty well.

Installing a couple stops signs could help too.
That can be very effective, if done periodically. Unfortunately, our department is short of officers, so traffic issues take a backseat.
That's probably a bigger problem than a local speeding issue. Why is there a shortage of officers in your area?
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quantAndHold
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by quantAndHold »

BernardShakey wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 am
Swansea wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:55 am
BernardShakey wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 pm I'd try to get a meeting with chief of police. Maybe someone you know knows someone, etc. Ask them to post a motorcycle officer at a strategic location and start issuing tickets. Saw that I'm my street ---- came a day or two a month for a few months and worked pretty well.

Installing a couple stops signs could help too.
That can be very effective, if done periodically. Unfortunately, our department is short of officers, so traffic issues take a backseat.
That's probably a bigger problem than a local speeding issue. Why is there a shortage of officers in your area?
There is a shortage of police officers pretty much everywhere.
PeninsulaPerson
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by PeninsulaPerson »

London wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:20 pm Just move. None of this stuff is going to work. Or, it it does, it will rule your life.


Definitely this!

(I heard a nearby town banned those speedbumps after they lost a new fire engine to one! Many other towns around here have built semi-parks jutting in the streets. They're pretty and they do seem to slow the traffic.)
camden
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by camden »

Even if your local governmental authority would allow them, I would be be very, very reluctant to add speed bumps.

They will be effective to some degree in slowing people down, but less than you imagine. You will be amazed at the number of fools that race in between them then brake hard, and the few that just blast over the things. They will produce a lot of unwanted noise. They will get in the way of emergency response vehicles. And you and every single one of your nonspeeding neighbors will come to detest having to cross the miserable things going to and from their houses every single trip for the rest of your lives.

Not to deny that speeding in residential areas is bad, but I concur with some other comments that distracted, text-while-you-drive types are probably statistically a greater menace these days, and bumps won’t help with that.

Having experienced them elsewhere, if my neighborhood installed speed bumps in an area where I would have to drive over them for a quarter of a mile or more every time I left my house, I’d move.
BernardShakey
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by BernardShakey »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:23 am
BernardShakey wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 am
Swansea wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:55 am
BernardShakey wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 pm I'd try to get a meeting with chief of police. Maybe someone you know knows someone, etc. Ask them to post a motorcycle officer at a strategic location and start issuing tickets. Saw that I'm my street ---- came a day or two a month for a few months and worked pretty well.

Installing a couple stops signs could help too.
That can be very effective, if done periodically. Unfortunately, our department is short of officers, so traffic issues take a backseat.
That's probably a bigger problem than a local speeding issue. Why is there a shortage of officers in your area?
There is a shortage of police officers pretty much everywhere.
Really? My city is crawling with them. Parked behind trees with a radar gun, hanging out at the donut shop, six cops standing over some minor offender shooting the breeze, etc. I'd certainly try to engage with the chief and get some enforcement on your street, especially with the school nearby and the recent pedestrian strike.
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mark_in_denver
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by mark_in_denver »

I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by pizzy »

BernardShakey wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:24 am
quantAndHold wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:23 am There is a shortage of police officers pretty much everywhere.
Really?
Here's a head start: https://www.google.com/search?q=police+officer+shortage
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quantAndHold
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by quantAndHold »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
There absolutely are solutions that work, they’ve been proven in multiple places, but they require people to drive slower, and people get upset when they have to drive slower, which worries the elected officials that have to face the wrath of the people whose driving time to the store was increased by 30 seconds.
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celia
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by celia »

Make a “shrine” with flowers and candles as if someone died in the street. Find neighbors down the road who would be willing to host the sign for a week and move it around.

Get a Little Free Library for your block so drivers will pull over when looking for a book.

Put an old trike or bike near the road (that you don’t care if it is stolen). Think thrift shop.

Get some signs that say “Children at Play”.

Let your kids have a lemonade stand during the summer in front of your house. They could sell cold canned drinks instead.

Have a garage sale or list items for free on Craigslist and leave them out in front. You’ll get more lookers driving by slowly if you make it a neighborhood garage sale.

The last few ideas are meant to attract slower drivers to the neighborhood. Of course, as the residents get older, they will slow down naturally.
mark_in_denver
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by mark_in_denver »

quantAndHold wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:47 am
mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
There absolutely are solutions that work, they’ve been proven in multiple places, but they require people to drive slower, and people get upset when they have to drive slower, which worries the elected officials that have to face the wrath of the people whose driving time to the store was increased by 30 seconds.
Right, so there's really no solutions especially with 1000 cars day . The op is not going to find something that magically works. I would have moved.
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Johnny Thinwallet
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

black jack wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 1:17 am
Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm Lots of great replies - thanks to all! I'll try to address several, but first wanted to highlight shorty's post below.
shorty313 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:04 pm Ah, finally a topic along the lines of my job! Speed is critical- I forget the exact numbers but pedestrian fatalities occur about 10% of the time with a crash at 25mph, then escalate to like 60%+ at 40mph.
...
This is the type of data and stats in your first sentence that is really, really helpful. Do you know of any studies I can point to that highlight those numbers?
...
See figures and tables on pp. 9-11 of https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... sSpeed.pdf

That's for your own information, and citation of sources (see also p. 12). No public official is likely to wade through the report. Search "vehicle speed and pedestrian injury" and look at the images; pick one of those to show people to make the point.

Someone mentioned speed cameras. Many states do not allow speed cameras, or greatly restrict their use (e.g., only in school zones and work zones). Even states that do allow them often require a 10mph cushion, so people could still go 35 on your 25 mph street without getting a ticket. Also, speed cameras have a limited area of effect; people usually slow down approaching one, then speed up after passing it.
WhyNotUs wrote:Knowing that most of the drivers on that street are local to the area gives one the chance to work on soft strategies as well. There is a limited and identifiable pool of people who make up the majority of speeders.
Good point; most of your speeders are neighbors, and they're a small fraction of the neighborhood population. Identifying them, then having a heart-to-heart talk with them, could help; if not, up the dosage.

For identification, I (who have a similar problem, though my street IS a cut-through street) am tempted to use a paintball gun to mark speeding vehicles for future identification (so far I forbear, in light of the propensity for violence currently affecting our society). Perhaps a group of like-minded neighbors would take this on, with a lawn chair, a radar gun (some police departments will loan you one, or you can buy your own for about $110) and a camera.

Any engineers out there have an idea for a spike strip that would not harm car tires at 25 mph but would flatten those hitting it at 40 mph?
Thank you very much for the study! And there was another poster who also shared a study on calming methods that is also very helpful. I've looked at the data and have also shared them with the other residents on our street who share the same speeding concerns.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by H-Town »

You can pay for a police car parked right there on the street.
Time is the ultimate currency.
thedaybeforetoday
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
By this logic, nothing would ever improve or change!
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Johnny Thinwallet
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:17 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:47 am
mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
There absolutely are solutions that work, they’ve been proven in multiple places, but they require people to drive slower, and people get upset when they have to drive slower, which worries the elected officials that have to face the wrath of the people whose driving time to the store was increased by 30 seconds.
Right, so there's really no solutions especially with 1000 cars day . The op is not going to find something that magically works. I would have moved.
Lots and lots of suggestions on moving, and I get the reasons why. That said, this particular issue is the only issue we have with our house/area. There's always the risk of trading one problem for another. For example, this area is loaded with retention ponds, most of which are near the houses at end of streets. So while those houses don't have traffic zooming by their house, they have geese and swarms of mosquitos on their property.

And financially, the fixed 2.625% mortgage rate we currently have is a dream I'll likely never reach again should we move.

I'm not holding out hope for some magical solution to fix the problem. I know this is similar to throwing a hail mary. But while I don't really expect it to work, I'm going to at least try. If the local government doesn't want to do anything, then I'll at least have it in writing that they opted to do nothing. At that point, I'll just have to do my best to ignore it (which I can do most days as is).
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bengal22
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by bengal22 »

I recommend raising the speed limit to 40. That will cut down on the speeding.
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H-Town
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by H-Town »

bengal22 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:33 pm I recommend raising the speed limit to 40. That will cut down on the speeding.
I say just remove the speed limit. People will drive 50-55 if they see the 40 sign.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Katietsu »

What problem are you trying to solve?

If it is traffic noise, I can tell you from experience that being near a speed bump or stop sign will be significantly more intrusive than a car going by at a steady 40 mph.

One of the reasons that you might not get traction is that the scenario that you describe is, honestly, one where I would expect a speed limit of 35 mph. So, I suspect that the police and many of your neighbors probably feel the most traffic is proceeding at an appropriate speed. It is going to be hard to convince others to look for a solution for a situation if most do not feel their is a problem to solve and the outlier is the one driving 25 mph.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by BernardShakey »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:17 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:47 am
mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
There absolutely are solutions that work, they’ve been proven in multiple places, but they require people to drive slower, and people get upset when they have to drive slower, which worries the elected officials that have to face the wrath of the people whose driving time to the store was increased by 30 seconds.
Right, so there's really no solutions especially with 1000 cars day . The op is not going to find something that magically works. I would have moved.
Don't move! You likely have a nice low interest rate. Right now is about the worst time in years to sell a house and buy another requiring a loan. Keep working on the city for a stop sign and police presence. The squeaky wheel....
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by suemarkp »

What is it about the speeding that bothers you? Are you afraid of a car hitting a person? Has anyone or anything actually been hit? Is it the noise? Speed limits used to be set by using the 80% rule -- the speed 80% of the cars would travel on that road if there were no speed limit signs. I'm not sure what is used today, because if that were still the rule speed limits would be much higher. If 25% of the people are violating the speed sign, that tells me the speed limit is too low.

I live on a road that has a 35 MPH speed limit. I'm not afraid to work by the road. If I want to cross I look both ways... What bugs me is the noise. So many cars with loud exhausts, and the tire noise from the ones going 35 or even faster. These loud exhausts would still be loud at 25 MPH though. I also don't like the motorcycles that wind out and go 60+ down the street. Subwoofers bug me too. We got a traffic calming cross walk. That helps, but only close to the sidewalk. Going to need many more to make the street quiet, as they just accelerate after the cross walk.

But I don't think I can change any of this, so I just accept it. Its my punishment for having hearing loss and doing all these things as a teenager that bug me now as an older adult (loud exhaust, loud music).
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
Train2bogle
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Train2bogle »

H-Town wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:37 pm
bengal22 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 12:33 pm I recommend raising the speed limit to 40. That will cut down on the speeding.
I say just remove the speed limit. People will drive 50-55 if they see the 40 sign.
Reminds me of the time I dropped off a friend in another town once. In hindsight, I’m questioning the truth of it, but he said not to worry about the 25 mph speed limit signs on the road we were on. Apparently the town made the speed limit signs lower, but the legal speed limit was never actually changed.

So just keep the 25 mph speed limit signs but quietly raise the speed limit to 40. Problem solved
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by EHEngineer »

Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm I will end with this: the only solution I've ever seen that really slows people down is when the street is lined with parked cars. But while we do have some parked cars, there usually are not many. The first two "your speed" calming devices put out was actually a sign on a trailer parked in the street, which effectively acted like a parked car. The current signs, collecting data discreetly, are hanging from poles in the grass.
I also observe that wide streets encourage fast driving, even in residential areas.

Here are streets that have curb barriers that separate the street parking area of the driving lane. They are installed near the intersections. Drivers going down the road pass these at each intersection and must be careful to stay in their lane.
Image

Alternatively, if you really want people to drive carefully, consider advocating for Gordon Tullock's ice pick airbag. There are many articles describing it, but this photo communicates the idea very well. https://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/comm ... lock_spike
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Glockenspiel »

Driver speed almost entirely depends on roadway width and vertical elements adjacent to or near the travel lane. Narrow the roadway, bump in curb lines at corners, plant trees adjacent to the road, and park cars on the street and vehicles will slow down.

Drivers drive as fast as they feel safe driving. Make it “feel less safe” for people to speed, and they’ll slow down.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Glockenspiel »

mark_in_denver wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:26 am I doubt you'll find a solution that really works, otherwise agencies would be using it. Maybe you'll be able to cut down on some speeders but you're not going to eliminate all of them or most and whatever you do might not be enough to your satisfaction.

If I had a thousand cars passing in front of my house everyday, I would have moved long ago. Even 50 is too many.
Agencies are using it. In my state, most urban roadway project is a road “diet”, making lanes narrower, adding curb bump outs, adding bike lanes/trails, etc. These projects take time and don’t happen overnight.
3PKWzh9
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by 3PKWzh9 »

bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

black jack wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 1:17 am
Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:41 pm Lots of great replies - thanks to all! I'll try to address several, but first wanted to highlight shorty's post below.
shorty313 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 4:04 pm Ah, finally a topic along the lines of my job! Speed is critical- I forget the exact numbers but pedestrian fatalities occur about 10% of the time with a crash at 25mph, then escalate to like 60%+ at 40mph.
...
This is the type of data and stats in your first sentence that is really, really helpful. Do you know of any studies I can point to that highlight those numbers?
...
See figures and tables on pp. 9-11 of https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... sSpeed.pdf

That's for your own information, and citation of sources (see also p. 12). No public official is likely to wade through the report. Search "vehicle speed and pedestrian injury" and look at the images; pick one of those to show people to make the point.

Someone mentioned speed cameras. Many states do not allow speed cameras, or greatly restrict their use (e.g., only in school zones and work zones). Even states that do allow them often require a 10mph cushion, so people could still go 35 on your 25 mph street without getting a ticket. Also, speed cameras have a limited area of effect; people usually slow down approaching one, then speed up after passing it.
WhyNotUs wrote:Knowing that most of the drivers on that street are local to the area gives one the chance to work on soft strategies as well. There is a limited and identifiable pool of people who make up the majority of speeders.
Good point; most of your speeders are neighbors, and they're a small fraction of the neighborhood population. Identifying them, then having a heart-to-heart talk with them, could help; if not, up the dosage.

For identification, I (who have a similar problem, though my street IS a cut-through street) am tempted to use a paintball gun to mark speeding vehicles for future identification (so far I forbear, in light of the propensity for violence currently affecting our society). Perhaps a group of like-minded neighbors would take this on, with a lawn chair, a radar gun (some police departments will loan you one, or you can buy your own for about $110) and a camera.

Any engineers out there have an idea for a spike strip that would not harm car tires at 25 mph but would flatten those hitting it at 40 mph?
As satisfying as the Paintball solution would be, I would worry you could be charged with assault. If it broke a window, or if the driver panicked and swerved and hit someone, I imagine the liability would be a grave concern. Especially in consideration that 35 mph in a 25 zone on wide street doesn’t feel very fast.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Adam11 »

feehater wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 9:25 am My favorite speed calming device I’ve only seen once ever…in a residential neighborhood near the DC zoo. There is a stoplight at the bottom of a hill (completely unnecessary, just for a crosswalk and no cross street). Halfway down the hill, there is a device that tells you your speed and very clearly states (in fewer words): if you are speeding, the upcoming light will turn red and make you lose more time than if you just follow the speed limit.
Ah yes, the Porter Street crosswalk to nowhere. As a bonus, many of the residents near that crosswalk always tap the pedestrian beg button when strolling by it to force the light into turning red. That keeps drivers on their toes when they’re not even speeding and calms traffic even further.

For OP, if it’s that important enough to you, permanently park two decent looking beaters 10” off the curb on opposite sides of the street. You could even create a pretty tight chicane with three beaters. Problem solved.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

3PKWzh9 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:46 pm
bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
I don’t know if my comment was deleted earlier. I did not go all the way through. But that was kind of my point exactly. Driving 35 in a 25 particularly when the street is wide and straight with no curves just doesn’t feel very fast at all. I suspect most drivers in that situation would go five or 10 over the limit.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by onourway »

3PKWzh9 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:46 pm
bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
What is rationally safe from a driver's perspective is often not safe for other road users. Even good people with good intentions tend to drive excessively fast when road design encourages it. Roads are not strictly for drivers of vehicles, even though most traffic engineering has acted that way for most of a century.

Narrowing the road is the best option.
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Johnny Thinwallet
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

3PKWzh9 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:46 pm
bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
In the last few months:

1) An 8-year-old boy was hit by a car (driven by a resident) while walking to school.
2) A resident accelerated and drove up a curb by a school bus while the red lights were still flashing and the stop sign was out, nearly hitting both a 6-year-old boy and the boy's father who were crossing the street. Despite bus automated video footage and numerous witness accounts, the driver of that vehicle then lied about the incident. State police handed down a heavy fine.
3) A resident was arrested (in his own driveway) and ultimately charged with reckless operation and fleeing police after being caught doing burnouts, donuts and speeding in the neighborhood by police.
4) A resident sped down a street, took a turn too fast and smashed into a parked car on the side of the street (this was recorded on doorbell camera footage).

That is in addition to the excessive speeding happening on a daily basis. And this is an affluent neighborhood with a median household income more than 2x higher than the metro area.

My son's school bus driver describes the driving here as the wild west. Another resident who is a firefighter in a different community sums up the driving here as atrocious.

I'm seeking help because I believe that it is irresponsible to blatantly violate traffic laws in a residential neighborhood that has a few hundred children in it. Going further, it’s completely selfish for someone to put their neighbor’s children at risk for the few seconds they intend to save during the last 1/4 mile to their house from the community entrance.
eddot98
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by eddot98 »

Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm Before I get into the details here, I do want to acknowledge that I know different local jurisdictions would handle this situation in vastly different ways. I also want to share that I've already begun working with local officials on this (more on this below). All that said, I'm really looking for some ideas here on how to permanently solve an ongoing issue with speeding on our residential street. I'm also fully aware that this is an issue almost everywhere and that our neighborhood is not unique with this problem.

I live on a residential street with a 25mph speed limit. The specific street I live in is not a "cut-through" for main streets - it just dead ends into various cul-de-sacs, however, it is an artery within our neighborhood that feeds into roughly 100 additional homes beyond our home. Our stretch of road in question is about 1/4 mile long and is a straightaway. Sad to say, whoever designed our street couldn't have done a better job designing a dragstrip raceway. And that's how (too) many people treat it.

A few pertinent stats on our neighborhood:

1) The front porch of most houses sit only about 45 feet away from the road itself.
2) There are sidewalks in our community that sit 10 feet away from the road.
3) The street itself is about 23 feet wide and does permit street parking on both sides.
4) There is an elementary school walking distance from our neighborhood. Due to its close proximity, our neighborhood is in a transportation exclusion zone meaning that there's no bus service to that specific elementary school. Most students walk or ride their bike to school as it's only a 5-10 minute walk. The school sits on a 35mph street and that street has a 20mph school zone, but once students cross that street and enter our neighborhood the school zone no longer applies. Three months ago an 8-year-old was hit by a car trying to cross the street in that school zone (he was ok).
5) There are roughly 1,000 vehicles that travel past our house on our street each day. This was confirmed by previous data collection efforts by the local police department. The county engineer also provided information that suggests that each house will create 10 vehicle routes per day, and that lines up with the previous data collection measuring traffic.
6) We have a neighborhood HOA, though the streets are public streets. The HOA is useless in this matter. It's like George Costanza describing Kruger Industrial Smoothing: "we don't care, and it shows."
7) We also have a neighborhood social media presence. There are always reminders and/or people begging for other residents to slow down. It falls on deaf ears and has no discernible positive impact.

Twice previously I have asked the local police department for assistance on reducing speeding on our street. Each time they placed a "your speed" calming device that alerted drivers to their speed and collected data. The device would sit out there for a week, and during that week most people tended to behave better (i.e. the calming device was doing its job). The police department would analyze the data and say "outside of outliers, it's not too bad." They'd remove calming device and not soon after removing the calming device the excessive speeding would resume.

More recently, though, a group of neighbors and myself have now escalated this all the way to the top government officials in our local area. Due to this, it has also made its way to the chief of police in our local area. They have recently installed a data collection speed box for both directions, except this time the device is operating in "stealth" mode. What I mean is, the signs and collection boxes are there, but visibly it doesn't display anything. For drivers going by, the signs give the perception that they are turned off. But it is discreetly collecting data as drivers zoom by, and yes, they are indeed zooming by.

Of course, what is my definition of excessive speeding? It's admittedly subjective. I'm not really worried about people going 27 or 28mph. But the calming devices installed during the previous bandaid attempts to slow people down would clock at upwards of 35-40+ mph. You can feel those cars driving by. That same type of "feel" is what we see/feel regularly when the devices are removed. The fastest I saw was 59mph.

So this long-winded description brings me to some questions ...

Assuming the police department and local government will now finally see the issue by collecting data discreetly, what are some possible and/or reasonable long-term speed reduction strategies that we could suggest when discussing the data?

Speed bumps? Through hearsay, I've heard that the local government really doesn't want this but I've yet to confirm. The county engineer has told me that the driveways are mostly too close together to install "speed humps" on our street.

Permanent "your speed" calming devices?

Cameras that send out speed notices? I'm pretty sure they cannot set cameras up to provide actual violations.

Other?

I will end with this: the only solution I've ever seen that really slows people down is when the street is lined with parked cars. But while we do have some parked cars, there usually are not many. The first two "your speed" calming devices put out was actually a sign on a trailer parked in the street, which effectively acted like a parked car. The current signs, collecting data discreetly, are hanging from poles in the grass.
I find it mildly amusing how people with no training, education, or experience in the operation of roads and highways seem to think that their judgment is better than professionals who have been working in the field for their whole careers. I wouldn’t tell my dentist how to repair a cavity nor would I tell a carpenter how to construct a bookcase. I spent over 40 years as a Professional Engineer working for a State Highway Agency and later for a contractor. Although I have some knowledge of setting speed limits, it was not my area of expertise and I would no sooner second guess the decision to set a speed limit on a certain road just because I lived on it and I felt that some drivers were driving too quickly.
The speed limit on your road appears to be correct, it just isn’t being properly enforced. That should be your only focus. People will drive the speeds that they feel are appropriate for the situation, but if they are aware that a speed limit in a particular area is strictly enforced they will reluctantly comply with it. All the other suggestions, such as speed bumps, bump outs, lane restrictions, etc. all come at a cost.
There is a notorious speed trap in a neighboring town on a state highway that is 25 mph through the town center of about 3/4 mile. The speed limit entering the town in each direction is 45 mph. Every local driver knows that the 25 mph speed limit is strictly enforced and they slow down.
If you were to ask folks who live in residential neighborhoods if people drive too quickly on the road in front of their house, I expect that you will get the majority of people agreeing with you about driver speeds. I myself would agree about our road and about most of the roads in our neighborhood.
I wouldn’t try to suggest capital improvements to the professional civil servants who serve you. I would suggest bringing up your concerns about speeds and leave the solution in their hands. If you aren’t happy with their answers, keep asking them. Lacking any action, then you go political. Just keep your focus on the problem, don’t tell professionals how to do their jobs, it will come off as an insult.
bighatnohorse
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by bighatnohorse »

The street needs a 22-foot speed table - with a design speed of 25 to 30 mph.
Cost runs between $5,000 to $15,000

Source: https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/saferjourne ... d%20table.
alexbogle
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by alexbogle »

In Europe, they have red lights that trigger if you go above the speed limit by some margin.

I doubt that this would be easy to get installed, but it would be a solution that is better than speed bumps. Add a red-light camera and automatically ticket anyone that violates it.
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Greentree
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Greentree »

Check out “Not Just Bikes” on YouTube. There is a specific episode about narrowing of streets.

We don’t do streets well here in the US. Our city is just starting to implement strategies to reduce speeds and make streets more pedestrian and cycling friendly, which incidentally makes driving nicer.
WhyNotUs
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by WhyNotUs »

eddot98 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:00 am I find it mildly amusing how people with no training, education, or experience in the operation of roads and highways seem to think that their judgment is better than professionals who have been working in the field for their whole careers. I wouldn’t tell my dentist how to repair a cavity nor would I tell a carpenter how to construct a bookcase. I spent over 40 years as a Professional Engineer working for a State Highway Agency and later for a contractor. Although I have some knowledge of setting speed limits, it was not my area of expertise and I would no sooner second guess the decision to set a speed limit on a certain road just because I lived on it and I felt that some drivers were driving too quickly.
I have a certain amount of empathy for this position. Citizens are better at bringing forward concerns and requests for large expenditures in a smaller traffic area need to be placed in the larger context. The other side of the coin is that engineers make traffic designs on ITE manuals that are often based on scant data points and lack of context. They also designed "efficient" highways that destroyed communities. I have experience dealing with highway/road engineers and while it has gotten better over the years, level of service and moving the most cars for the least cost is still a prime motivation. Many costs are still externalized to local residents.

I think a balance of respect for the profession and humility on the part of engineers is the best way forward. I think reasonable, fact based people could bring forward proposals, knowing that they will then be tested against research and budget realities.
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Beensabu
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by pizzy »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
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riverant
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by riverant »

3PKWzh9 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:46 pm
bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
So residential speed limits are the average of everyone driving at whatever speed they want? And if set otherwise, that’s the result of the government’s communist overreach? Okay…got it

OP - if your street is enormously wide, just lobby for a median with planters. No one in a neighborhood wants a “calming” sign. In the meantime, put one there yourself.

However, the examples of incidents you listed don’t appear to be a result of speed. They appear to be a result of terrible neighbors, which I worry will spill over and create a terrible community.
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Beensabu
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:29 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
The city, from the revenue they have collected. Children should be able to cross the street safely.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
pizzy
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by pizzy »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:57 am
pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:29 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
The city, from the revenue they have collected. Children should be able to cross the street safely.
They probably can’t afford to put these enhancements on every street, in every neighborhood in the city. Which is what would happen once they agreed to one street.
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GreendaleCC
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by GreendaleCC »

celia wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:59 am Make a “shrine” with flowers and candles as if someone died in the street. Find neighbors down the road who would be willing to host the sign for a week and move it around.

Get a Little Free Library for your block so drivers will pull over when looking for a book.

Put an old trike or bike near the road (that you don’t care if it is stolen). Think thrift shop.

Get some signs that say “Children at Play”.

Let your kids have a lemonade stand during the summer in front of your house. They could sell cold canned drinks instead.

Have a garage sale or list items for free on Craigslist and leave them out in front. You’ll get more lookers driving by slowly if you make it a neighborhood garage sale.

The last few ideas are meant to attract slower drivers to the neighborhood. Of course, as the residents get older, they will slow down naturally.
These things are popular in my area. They're not quite 3 ft tall, and people put them out on the edge of the street.

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Beensabu
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:00 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:57 am
pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:29 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
The city, from the revenue they have collected. Children should be able to cross the street safely.
They probably can’t afford to put these enhancements on every street, in every neighborhood in the city. Which is what would happen once they agreed to one street.
This sounds like a very particular kind of street, that is probably not to be found in every neighborhood in the city.

They can put a traffic light at a school crosswalk where a child was hit by a car, at the very least.

Or they can wait for a child to actually die, and then deal with the lawsuit which will surely cost more money.
"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable uncertainty; not knowing what comes next." ~Ursula LeGuin
pizzy
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by pizzy »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:08 pm
pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:00 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:57 am
pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:29 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
The city, from the revenue they have collected. Children should be able to cross the street safely.
They probably can’t afford to put these enhancements on every street, in every neighborhood in the city. Which is what would happen once they agreed to one street.
This sounds like a very particular kind of street, that is probably not to be found in every neighborhood in the city.

They can put a traffic light at a school crosswalk where a child was hit by a car, at the very least.

Or they can wait for a child to actually die, and then deal with the lawsuit which will surely cost more money.
I agree on the school crosswalk.

But the street sounds like every straight street in every neighborhood I’ve ever been in.
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finite_difference
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by finite_difference »

Lower the speed limit to 15 mph and double fines above 25 mph.

Have a traffic officer randomly stationed for enforcement. Once people start to get ticketed they will be careful and word of mouth will spread around being careful.

If the speed limit is 25 mph people will drive 30-35 mph.

If the speed limit is 15 mph people will drive 20-25 mph.

Longer term we’ll have AI driving so can reset speed limit to 25 mph.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by crefwatch »

I find it interesting that there is so much (driver ... ) opposition to red-light cameras and speed-cameras in nearby New York City and Long Island.

My ritzy suburban town has a default speed limit of 25 MPH. But it is frequently disregarded. It is my observation that only "losers" stop completely for a stop sign. And if your child is late (again! Warning from the Coach!) for swim practice, all bets are off. Because this is quite an old town, I fantasize that some people remember that THEIR mother had no stop sign at that corner, so they have "grandfathered" permission to fail to come to a stop.

The heaviest traffic jams in my town are not at rush hour. They are at school hours, when vast armored SUVs with a single driver and a single passenger block driveways for 1/5 mile around each middle and elementary school.
Swansea
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Swansea »

BernardShakey wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 10:13 am
Swansea wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 5:55 am
BernardShakey wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:59 pm I'd try to get a meeting with chief of police. Maybe someone you know knows someone, etc. Ask them to post a motorcycle officer at a strategic location and start issuing tickets. Saw that I'm my street ---- came a day or two a month for a few months and worked pretty well.

Installing a couple stops signs could help too.
That can be very effective, if done periodically. Unfortunately, our department is short of officers, so traffic issues take a backseat.
That's probably a bigger problem than a local speeding issue. Why is there a shortage of officers in your area?
A few years back a very generous buyout offer was made and accepted by senior officers. Members of the county government are active in the defund the police movements sense of support is not there. This is not unique to my county, but to all departments in the DMV (DC,MD and VA). Some are offering recruitment bonuses.
Barsoom
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Barsoom »

Have you considered rumble strips or dots applied at various points on the roads?

These aren't as bad as speed bumps but they do cause the cars to vibrate when driven over. That might be enough slow down drivers without having the uncomfortableness of speed bumps.

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TacoLover
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

finite_difference wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 12:37 pm Lower the speed limit to 15 mph and double fines above 25 mph.

Have a traffic officer randomly stationed for enforcement. Once people start to get ticketed they will be careful and word of mouth will spread around being careful.

If the speed limit is 25 mph people will drive 30-35 mph.

If the speed limit is 15 mph people will drive 20-25 mph.

Longer term we’ll have AI driving so can reset speed limit to 25 mph.
I would say people routinely go 5-10 over bec as
Long as they’re not on their phones it’s generally safe.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:57 am
pizzy wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:29 am
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:28 am A traffic light at the main school crosswalk, a stop sign about half way down the 1/4 mile straightway, and pedestrian activated flashing lights at the other crosswalks on the straightway.
Great suggestions. And there have been many.

But I keep thinking.. who pays for this?
The city, from the revenue they have collected. Children should be able to cross the street safely.
When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
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