Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

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KlangFool
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by KlangFool »

G-980-101-718 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:00 pm
KlangFool wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:04 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:39 pm Thank you all for the advice
I don’t have much knowledge about colleges , but by decent I meant colleges like Rice, northwestern, UC , UW, Georgia tech etc
My kid is self motivated in academics but not in music and sports
But interested in other extracurriculars like debate, theater , has expressed interest in other things like student council etc
I will not put extra pressure to try for elite colleges but we are also not parents who would let them not study/work hard and get into the worst colleges .
I understand it’s a delicate balance , but the place where we live is not the best in terms of education. I am even disappointed in how much they teach in school . So just trying
to figure out the path .
Rice and Georgia Tech are not decent college. They are elite.

KlangFool
Depends where you live I suppose. I've only vaguely heard of Rice and it definitely wouldn't do anything for me being listed on a resume if I was hiring. Georgia Tech, I'm assuming is a state school. Every state has state schools. This one doesn't jump out at me either. But I'm not from the south. It may be a regional issue.
G-980-101-718,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _endowment

FYI. Rice University is one of the richest private university. And, it is very generous in financial aid. The endowment is 7.8 billions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_University
"Its emphasis on undergraduate education is demonstrated by its 6:1 student-faculty ratio"

It is a small university with 8K students (undergraduate and graduate).

https://financialaid.rice.edu/

It is very rich and generous with financial aid (grants).

It is one of those hidden gems among higher education that most people does not know about.

KlangFool
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jackholloway
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by jackholloway »

Gradient Descent wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:21 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:27 pm Thank you again for correcting me about Rice/Georgia tech. I admitted I don’t have much knowledge about Elite vs decent .
We have 300k between two kids so far in 529 , still have 4-5 years for older one to go to college
Will keep on contributing 15-20 K per year for both combined per year.
and current pvt tuition will be part of cash flow in college( the same tuition goes for college)

I don’t know what my kids will do or where they will go . I just want to do the best for them as a parent . I agree with one of the posts that pvt schools probably doesn’t matter . It’s just a personal decision.
You are assuming your kids will go to an expensive private/out of state college. Maybe they will choose an inexpensive state school since that is where their friends are going. Or they won’t go to college at all. Be mindful of overfunding a 529. It’s OK to pay with a combination of cash flow and loans on top of 529.
You can also extract money from a 529 in the amount of any scholarships without penalty, and the penalty is only 10% of the earnings. I therefore used a 529 for a combination of stock funds to use first, and a stable value fund to use last. I might have made a different choice if I had access to a better stable value fund in my 401k, but I do not, and I wanted some component of my portfolio to be stable value at the time.
toocold
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by toocold »

dcdowden wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:16 pm Even in my era, 50 years ago, people told me that where you went as an undergraduate matters much less than where you went for graduate school. Of course, your actual performance in high school, as an undergraduate and in graduate school does really matter. I always told my kids to do their best and challenge themselves. Our daughter switched colleges after freshman year because she did not find it as challenging as her high school honors programs even though she had a substantial scholarship for being a National Merit Finalist. She still graduated in 4 years and her first employer wanted to know her SAT scores. So those do matter.
Usually the graduate school definitely matters more.

For my old profession -- management consulting, they definitely target higher ranked business schools, but also for undergrad they'd limit/prioritize them to the top 20 or so. For business, rankings do matter to be on the target list. Otherwise, other professions really don't for undergraduate.
RedwoodsCA
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by RedwoodsCA »

My son is a senior this year. He got into Vanderbilt and Northwestern (as well as our state flagship). Those were the only two "top twenty" schools that he applied for, and was successful on both.

Those schools really, really look at which classes the kids take measured against what the school offers. Each school submits a profile that clearly describes their grading scale, how many APs they offer (with a listing) and other pertinent information that allows them to measure school against school and student within school.

My son took something like 14 AP courses, plus linear algebra and multivariable calculus that don't even have APs. Basically, he took all of the hard classes offered with all A's. He had a mid 1500s SAT, was a NM Finalist, etc. Also had a couple of leadership positions in school clubs, and some light sports. Just within his school there were at least another dozen kids with the same "stats." Multiply that out across the country and there are a massive amount of nearly identical high performers. Assuming the top 20 schools can admit ~30k-40k kids a year, those openings fill up quickly.
the_wiki
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by the_wiki »

I'm not paying out-of-state or private tuition, so that helped narrow it down a lot.
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winterfan
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by winterfan »

GreendaleCC wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:38 pm Right now, the population of 18-year-olds is headed toward a peak (see 2005-2007 US births). In a few years, we'll be entering a long drawdown of high school graduates as this demographic trend plays out.

In 2025, there will be around 180k more kids turning 18 than this year.

However, in 2028, there will be 300k+ fewer kids turning 18 than in 2025.
My child was born in 2009. It really was incredibly easy to find daycare, enroll in a preschool, etc. I'm hoping college admissions and first jobs play out the same way.
bg5
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by bg5 »

I would invest more in public speaking/interview skills. The reality is that most of the time the school you graduate form means very little. It all comes down to your interview skills as most employers could care less where you get your degree from.

Many will have a hard time accepting this reality on this forum but bottom line it all comes down to the interview room and yes employers take a look at people from all Universities and not just the top.

I think its also important to understand that its not always the smartest person who gets the job. Its the "well rounded" person who knows how to communicate and work well with others is usually the one that employers want
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Watty
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Watty »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:04 pm Rice and Georgia Tech are not decent college. They are elite.
I'm in Georgia and Georgia Tech is a fantastic university that is usually in many "top of" lists but it is a really hard to categorize.

The reason is that they intentionally target having about 60% of the incoming freshmen be from in state which makes it a bit less elite, at least if you are in state.

I just looked and the acceptance rate for out of state students is 13% but for in state students it is 35%. Georgia Tech also actively recruits in state students which did well on standardized tests.

In state students who are not accepted also have the option of studying most of the STEM majors at a different Georgia university or community college as part of several formal transfer programs with the possibility of transferring to Georgia Tech sometime after their freshman year. I am not sure of the details of how it works but I am pretty sure that when an in state student get a rejection letter it also comes with information on what transfer programs are available.

For out of state students Georgia Tech is also pretty expensive, around $50K a year.

For in state students it costs about the same as other the other Georgia flagship universities. In Georgia the lottery money goes to pay for pretty much all of the college tuition with what is called a Hope Scholarship. If an in state student can keep up a B average to keep the Hope Scholarship they can go to Georgia Tech for less than $20K a year including room and board.

For out of state students Georgia Tech is hard to get into and expensive which pretty much qualifies as an elite college. While still top notch for in state students the perspective is a bit different.
Last edited by Watty on Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
London
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by London »

None of it matters. Let them find their way at a school that suits them. Life will be fine.
gips
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by gips »

Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Hello
Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges

Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .

What matters and what doesn’t ? My kid is starting high school soon. Thank you
Here's what we found made a difference:
- High GPA (95-100)
- top 5% in graduating class
- high rigor, at least 7, preferably 10-13 ap courses
- top 1% standardized test scores (we used a tutor)
- attending one of the top public high schools in the country
- Four years of a service-based charity/non-profit showing increased impact each year. (this occurred organically for our kids)
- ECs: here it's quality/depth rather than quantity. for example, I made the mistake of telling my oldest to list all-league tennis as his first ec. How many all-league tennis players are there in the US? (answer: a whole lot). He had other, impressive ecs which should have been first and in fact, he probably would have had a better chance of admission at a top 10 if we left tennis off his application.

let me wrap up by saying that asking smart, well-intentioned people here and on college confidential is a poor way to get at this data because we have small sample sizes (I'd consider anything under say 1000 students a small sample size). IMO, you'd be better off talking to a good, reputable college counselor for a couple of hours. After making a set of mistakes with our oldest, I invested in a book written by a college counselor and it made a huge difference.

good luck!
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Sho
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Sho »

gips wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:15 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Hello
Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges

Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .

What matters and what doesn’t ? My kid is starting high school soon. Thank you
Here's what we found made a difference:
- High GPA (95-100)
- top 5% in graduating class
- high rigor, at least 7, preferably 10-13 ap courses
- top 1% standardized test scores (we used a tutor)
- attending one of the top public high schools in the country
- Four years of a service-based charity/non-profit showing increased impact each year. (this occurred organically for our kids)
- ECs: here it's quality/depth rather than quantity. for example, I made the mistake of telling my oldest to list all-league tennis as his first ec. How many all-league tennis players are there in the US? (answer: a whole lot). He had other, impressive ecs which should have been first and in fact, he probably would have had a better chance of admission at a top 10 if we left tennis off his application.

let me wrap up by saying that asking smart, well-intentioned people here and on college confidential is a poor way to get at this data because we have small sample sizes (I'd consider anything under say 1000 students a small sample size). IMO, you'd be better off talking to a good, reputable college counselor for a couple of hours. After making a set of mistakes with our oldest, I invested in a book written by a college counselor and it made a huge difference.

good luck!
Thanks , Yes, we will use services of counselor when the
time comes. Would you mind sharing or sending the name
Of the book
finite_difference
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by finite_difference »

NYTimes has a newly released tool to build your own college rankings: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... kings.html

In my opinion, this tool can offer a lot of insight.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Tom_T
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Tom_T »

niche.com for student reviews. You might learn things like "the town is a dump/the town is dangerous", "the food is terrible", "the campus is deserted on weekends", "the wifi is horrible", "financial aid office is a nightmare", "there's no social life outside of Greek life", and so on. Yes, of course there's some selection bias (unhappy people are more likely to complain), but it helps to get some real perspectives instead of the college tours where the tour guides are glowing about how much they love it here, and you're told that 99.2% of the graduates have a job within six months. :)

School is school at the end of the day. It's critical that your kid is in an environment that suits their personality - and that may not be at the school you want them to attend. They should be a part of the process, and the process should be more than "this is a good school, therefore all I need to do is go there, and I will have a good job when I graduate." There's a reason why college counseling centers are overwhelmed with kids who are anxious and depressed and stressed (and are self-medicating.) Having a stressed-out kid during high school is manageable. Having a stressed-out kid 500 miles from home is a very different story.
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HipCoyote
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by HipCoyote »

Watty wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 1:14 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am What matters and what doesn’t ?
When I was helping my son through the college selection process one quote stuck with me which was something like,

"Selecting a college for your kid is not about selecting the best college, it is about selecting the college that is the best fit for your kid."

There is really a lot of truth to what.

A lot of being a good fit involves things like if you kid will do better in different environments like Big college vs small college, college town vs urban campus, living on campus vs off campus, near home vs other side of the country, high pressure vs laid back, and lots of other factors that have little to do with actual quality and ranking of the college itself. I am pretty sure that a lot of students who do not make it through college fail because the college was not a good fit for them and not because they were not capable of succeeding.

When researching colleges one of the things you should look at is the 4 and 6 year graduation rates of different universities and if possible the graduation rate of the major they are going into. Many good colleges have have graduation rates of less than 90% and graduation rates of 75% or even lower are not uncommon.

Getting admitted to a college is only the beginning of the process so be sure to also focus on what will likely happen once they are in college.

My son insisted on going to a large regional state university that was a tier below the three large flagship type universities including Georgia Tech and he stood a good chance of getting into any of them. In retrospect the regional state university was a good choice for him since he got to be a bit of a "big fish in a small pond" which was a good fit and worked well for him. If he had gone to Georgia Tech he would have realistically started out low in his class ranking and struggled and I think that there is a very real chance that he would not have graduated.

When helping your kid pick out a college the odds of them being successful there may be more important than the actual college ranking for most kids. That is not to say that your kid should go to a relatively easy college but it is a balancing act to find a balance where they will thrive at the college that they choose. By definition even at a college like MIT or Harvard 20% of the students will be in the bottom fifth of their class and that can be real hard struggle for a student who was always at the top of their class in high school.

When looking at college ranking also keep in mind that for any given major once you get past the top ten or twenty ranked college that the actual ranking may not mean a lot. For example if there are 200 colleges for a major the difference between a college ranked 30 and 130 may be very small and they both likely credible colleges and the other factors will be more important than some arbitrary ranking. It is also a mistake to think that the college rankings are very precise. If your kid is not going to a college which is ranked it the top 10% or the bottom 10% then any college that is in the middle 80% may work out for your kid if it is otherwise a good fit for them.

Also look at the ranking of the department your kid will be in since even a strong college will have a few week departments and many otherwise average universities have some very strong departments.
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .
I am not sure of what your definition of decent is but even an average college is pretty dang good if your kid does well there especially for an undergraduate degree.

It varies but it is also important to realize that even a state flagship university can be hard to get into now. My state's flagship universities have an acceptance rate of less than 50% and many students in my son's high school class were at a loss when they found out they could not get into the state flagship when they had considered that as a safety school. Some of these were good solid students too with high "B" or "A" GPAs and decent test scores.
When I read this post, initially, I thought I wrote it. Our son's experience and his quest for colleges was exactly the same. The "FIT" aspect is EXACTLY what he was advised to seek, and it worked perfectly. He was admitted to some high end colleges and decided to go to a smaller, albeit wonderful, state school. The school (Cal Poly) freed up some money to pay for med school rather than ridiculous tuition at a private school, pay for medical school and become a physician with little to no debt. There he had teachers who were approachable, helpful, etc. I recommend you look at these kinds of places.

In high school, certainly grades are important, test scores, activities with leadership. But I also have to think that some kid working (gasp!) might be a sought after candidate. And for those who think they have to go to a name school to get into med school...think again. Again it comes down to grades, scores, activities, interview skills, etc.
Old Guy
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Old Guy »

Having worked at a flag ship state university in the B1G as an administrator and an investigator for the US Department of Education, it’s my thought that there are very few really “bad” colleges particularly among the public universities. The competition among graduate students for professorial positions is fierce, which leads even lower ranked schools being able to hired quality academics. Additionally, many schools with lower ranks have individual departments, which may be among the best in the country. Again, this especially true among public schools.

One final thought, students get what they put in.
valleyrock
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by valleyrock »

Bear in mind that an undergraduate degree can be viewed as only the beginning of one's education. A master's degree provides an opportunity to either hone one's knowledge of a chosen field, OR to make a paradigm shift in fields. Then there's law school, MBAs, etc. etc. (The PhD should probably be the topic of another thread.)

As an example, a basic degree in a hard science can lead to master's degrees in a variety of engineering fields. (Sure, there could be a few background courses to take, but that's OK.) Or, in related areas in things like plant science, genetics, computer science, and on and on.

The point is: excellent performance at most undergraduate colleges and universities can open doors to graduate and professional degrees at many schools, including the top ones. Speaking from experience, there's a shortage of good, motivated graduate students. Research universities will pay tuition and a stipend to graduate students in many fields. So, looking at education post-high school as an arc leading into graduate studies can provide some helpful perspective here.
gips
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by gips »

Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:43 pm
gips wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:15 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Hello
Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges

Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .

What matters and what doesn’t ? My kid is starting high school soon. Thank you
Here's what we found made a difference:
- High GPA (95-100)
- top 5% in graduating class
- high rigor, at least 7, preferably 10-13 ap courses
- top 1% standardized test scores (we used a tutor)
- attending one of the top public high schools in the country
- Four years of a service-based charity/non-profit showing increased impact each year. (this occurred organically for our kids)
- ECs: here it's quality/depth rather than quantity. for example, I made the mistake of telling my oldest to list all-league tennis as his first ec. How many all-league tennis players are there in the US? (answer: a whole lot). He had other, impressive ecs which should have been first and in fact, he probably would have had a better chance of admission at a top 10 if we left tennis off his application.

let me wrap up by saying that asking smart, well-intentioned people here and on college confidential is a poor way to get at this data because we have small sample sizes (I'd consider anything under say 1000 students a small sample size). IMO, you'd be better off talking to a good, reputable college counselor for a couple of hours. After making a set of mistakes with our oldest, I invested in a book written by a college counselor and it made a huge difference.

good luck!
Thanks , Yes, we will use services of counselor when the
time comes. Would you mind sharing or sending the name
Of the book
here's the book:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Prepare-Stan ... 1118414403

we had our two younger kids read the book, read some of their drafts of "who am I and what makes me unique" and read their apps. they were both admitted to every school to which they applied.

If I was doing it all over again, I'd spend some money now, before my kids entered hs, with a good college counselor to understand the journey. At the point they are getting ready to apply to schools, the die is cast.

good luck!
Topic Author
Sho
Posts: 433
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Sho »

gips wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:33 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:43 pm
gips wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:15 pm
Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Hello
Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges

Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .

What matters and what doesn’t ? My kid is starting high school soon. Thank you
Here's what we found made a difference:
- High GPA (95-100)
- top 5% in graduating class
- high rigor, at least 7, preferably 10-13 ap courses
- top 1% standardized test scores (we used a tutor)
- attending one of the top public high schools in the country
- Four years of a service-based charity/non-profit showing increased impact each year. (this occurred organically for our kids)
- ECs: here it's quality/depth rather than quantity. for example, I made the mistake of telling my oldest to list all-league tennis as his first ec. How many all-league tennis players are there in the US? (answer: a whole lot). He had other, impressive ecs which should have been first and in fact, he probably would have had a better chance of admission at a top 10 if we left tennis off his application.

let me wrap up by saying that asking smart, well-intentioned people here and on college confidential is a poor way to get at this data because we have small sample sizes (I'd consider anything under say 1000 students a small sample size). IMO, you'd be better off talking to a good, reputable college counselor for a couple of hours. After making a set of mistakes with our oldest, I invested in a book written by a college counselor and it made a huge difference.

good luck!
Thanks , Yes, we will use services of counselor when the
time comes. Would you mind sharing or sending the name
Of the book
here's the book:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Prepare-Stan ... 1118414403

we had our two younger kids read the book, read some of their drafts of "who am I and what makes me unique" and read their apps. they were both admitted to every school to which they applied.

If I was doing it all over again, I'd spend some money now, before my kids entered hs, with a good college counselor to understand the journey. At the point they are getting ready to apply to schools, the die is cast.

good luck!
Thank you , ordered the book .
LeftCoastIV
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by LeftCoastIV »

RedwoodsCA wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:08 pm My son is a senior this year. He got into Vanderbilt and Northwestern (as well as our state flagship). Those were the only two "top twenty" schools that he applied for, and was successful on both.

Those schools really, really look at which classes the kids take measured against what the school offers. Each school submits a profile that clearly describes their grading scale, how many APs they offer (with a listing) and other pertinent information that allows them to measure school against school and student within school.

My son took something like 14 AP courses, plus linear algebra and multivariable calculus that don't even have APs. Basically, he took all of the hard classes offered with all A's. He had a mid 1500s SAT, was a NM Finalist, etc. Also had a couple of leadership positions in school clubs, and some light sports. Just within his school there were at least another dozen kids with the same "stats." Multiply that out across the country and there are a massive amount of nearly identical high performers. Assuming the top 20 schools can admit ~30k-40k kids a year, those openings fill up quickly.
I thought students, generally, can’t take AP classes freshmen year. Racking up 14 APs over (I assume) 3 years is impressive.

This also speaks to the downside of attending a private high school or premier public school. With so many APs available, kids that only take a couple APs look like they haven’t challenged themselves. In the case of our daughter, for example, she has chosen to work three days a week after school. Great experience, but with no AP classes until senior year she’ll be challenged versus applicants with a ton of APs.
HereToLearn
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by HereToLearn »

LeftCoastIV wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:28 pm
RedwoodsCA wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:08 pm My son is a senior this year. He got into Vanderbilt and Northwestern (as well as our state flagship). Those were the only two "top twenty" schools that he applied for, and was successful on both.

Those schools really, really look at which classes the kids take measured against what the school offers. Each school submits a profile that clearly describes their grading scale, how many APs they offer (with a listing) and other pertinent information that allows them to measure school against school and student within school.

My son took something like 14 AP courses, plus linear algebra and multivariable calculus that don't even have APs. Basically, he took all of the hard classes offered with all A's. He had a mid 1500s SAT, was a NM Finalist, etc. Also had a couple of leadership positions in school clubs, and some light sports. Just within his school there were at least another dozen kids with the same "stats." Multiply that out across the country and there are a massive amount of nearly identical high performers. Assuming the top 20 schools can admit ~30k-40k kids a year, those openings fill up quickly.
I thought students, generally, can’t take AP classes freshmen year. Racking up 14 APs over (I assume) 3 years is impressive.

This also speaks to the downside of attending a private high school or premier public school. With so many APs available, kids that only take a couple APs look like they haven’t challenged themselves. In the case of our daughter, for example, she has chosen to work three days a week after school. Great experience, but with no AP classes until senior year she’ll be challenged versus applicants with a ton of APs.
Your D's HS guidance counselor's portion of each college app will address the rigor of the coursework your D completed. If her school does not allow students to enroll in AP courses until Sr year, her GC will not that and address the level of rigor your D pursued. Some high schools cannot or do not offer two dozen AP courses, but will instead offer dual enrollment with a local college.

The GC will also submit the school profile for your D's HS. While there is no single format, it should report stats for your D's graduating class: GPA ranges, GPA calculation, SAT/ACT scores, distribution of AP scores (if offered before Sr year), honors & AP courses offered, % of students attending college, etc. If you have not looked at the HS profile, you should take a look at it. Often available on school's website under the Guidance heading.

Some highly motivated students will self-study and sit for AP exams on their own.

As to taking 14 AP courses, like everything else, this varies by school. I think my son had taken nine by the time he graduated five years ago. BC Calc produced two scores, one for AB and one for BC, so the score report showed ten. It would have been impossible for him to have taken more than that.
LeftCoastIV
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by LeftCoastIV »

I should clarify that our daughter is choosing not to take AP classes until senior year, but her situation is unique as she lived abroad for part of high school. She’ll need to lean on her narrative and variety of experiences in her application.

I suspect (not sure) that state schools are less inclined/able to consider kids with interesting narratives vs “high stat” kids that can more easily be compared.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Parkinglotracer »

Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Hello
I thought few times about posting this in a financial forum, I hope it’s ok
As almost half of my expenses last year were on kids and 529, I assume it’s important enough financially

Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges

Recently seeing some kids who seem to have checked most of the boxes, not getting into any decent college .

What matters and what doesn’t ? My kid is starting high school soon. Thank you
Taking college preparatory classes and getting good grades is the basis to build on.
SilverGirl
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by SilverGirl »

My kid worked so hard for four years and applied to about ten of the top 20 schools. He had 35 ACT, 4.8 GPA, decent extracurriculars etc. We had a college counselor working with him his last two years helping him polish his essays.

The last day of his application process he said to me ‘should I apply to Dartmouth?’ It had a decent name but to be honest we had never been to the area and knew nothing about it. He wrote the essay on the fly in about 20 minutes. It was not polished. In fact I thought it was a little maniacal- he talked about some tree function in math that made him feel ‘full of wonder’.

The one top school he got into- Dartmouth. He even got named a math scholar with a financial award. (We don’t qualify for need based). He is finishing up his freshman year and absolutely loving it there. This last minute addition to his applications was a very happy afterthought.

This is just my anecdotal story. But you can bet I’m telling my other kids to use their real voice when writing essays. Be themselves! (Of course with chatGPT now, who knows what the changing impact of essays will be).
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Watty
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Watty »

Two things that have not been mentioned yet.

1) You need to be cautious about putting too much pressure on your kid to get into the "right" college. There is a high school in an affluent area of Silicon Valley that has be called the grim nickname of "Suicide High" after a cluster of teen suicides due in part to the high pressure that the students were under. Even if you are not consciously putting demands on your kid to be a high achiever they may feel that when when they are going through the college selection process especially if they are being told early to take lots of AP classes and to be in a leadership roll in lots of activities.

2) Be open to the possibility that college may not be the right path for your kid. Some kids might thrive if they go to a vocational school and learn a trade instead or go into the military. That might not be a path you would want to encourage but it would be good to keep that open as an option.
Last edited by Watty on Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by GreendaleCC »

SilverGirl wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:56 pm We had a college counselor working with him his last two years helping him polish his essays.

The last day of his application process he said to me ‘should I apply to Dartmouth?’ It had a decent name but to be honest we had never been to the area and knew nothing about it. He wrote the essay on the fly in about 20 minutes. It was not polished. In fact I thought it was a little maniacal- he talked about some tree function in math that made him feel ‘full of wonder’.

The one top school he got into- Dartmouth
How did this affect your perception of the counselor's value?
SilverGirl
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by SilverGirl »

It was still worth it. We are a hectic, busy, not totally organized family with a lot of kids and we would not have been properly on top of the deadlines and making sure he did everything correctly. The advisor also convinced him to apply to a great school we had no familiarity with- GA Tech - and that was also a good acceptance with a decent merit aid package. He visited both campuses and fell in love with Dartmouth, but had that not been on the table, GA Tech would have been a wonderful experience too, I am sure. We are hiring the same advisor for my daughter. It’s a few thousand for the whole college prep timeframe and we can rest assured she will meet her deadlines and know what she needs to be focused on. The advantage of the counselor is to give a big picture of what colleges are out there and what they are looking at now. He didn’t suggest Dartmouth because my kid said he wanted a ‘big city’. So that wasn’t his fault at all.
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Sho
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Sho »

SilverGirl wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:56 pm My kid worked so hard for four years and applied to about ten of the top 20 schools. He had 35 ACT, 4.8 GPA, decent extracurriculars etc. We had a college counselor working with him his last two years helping him polish his essays.

The last day of his application process he said to me ‘should I apply to Dartmouth?’ It had a decent name but to be honest we had never been to the area and knew nothing about it. He wrote the essay on the fly in about 20 minutes. It was not polished. In fact I thought it was a little maniacal- he talked about some tree function in math that made him feel ‘full of wonder’.

The one top school he got into- Dartmouth. He even got named a math scholar with a financial award. (We don’t qualify for need based). He is finishing up his freshman year and absolutely loving it there. This last minute addition to his applications was a very happy afterthought.

This is just my anecdotal story. But you can bet I’m telling my other kids to use their real voice when writing essays. Be themselves! (Of course with chatGPT now, who knows what the changing impact of essays will be).
Happy to hear your son got into a prestigious college , where he is very happy . This is why started this post , based on what you are describing, I would have expected him to be accepted in more than one top 20 college . But I got very valuable advice from this thread , as well good recommendations for some books . Thank you all .
anil686
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by anil686 »

After going through this process - I agree with Watty wrt:
1). Try to avoid putting pressure if possible. Many kids who are being raised in high achieving households (parents wise) will strive to be that. No additional pressure or reminders are typically necessary in my experience as they are already thinking about those things but not verbalizing them. I found just having open ended discussions where our approach was what could we do to help in regards to school, activities, etc. Or what was needed by them - sometimes it was nothing more than breakfast on a Saturday morning to talk about things - sometimes dating, sometimes band or sports, sometimes class work. Just listening was key - and being an active/engaged listener. Not necessarily a problem solver even though that is what I wanted to be….

2). Sometimes kids have gifts and you can see them. My daughter is going to college but she has worked as a dog trainer for rally and agility classes in a wealthy suburb that we live in. She has worked there for 5 years now (she is now 18) and has a number of clients that pay the gym she works at $100 a hour for an hour with her in private gym or they pay $35/hour in group training where she trains 5 dogs at once. My wife and I told her last year that she has a real knack for this - she has won awards with our dogs in competitions - and we encouraged her to consider working for a year after high school if she wanted to as a full time trainer. If she really liked it, we talked about having her do business classes at our local community college or at a local university where she can learn basics about running a business/marketing/bookkeeping, etc. She would do really well opening her own gym - she has her own cards and has a wait list of 20 people waiting to take her classes (at all levels). She loves training dogs and we have reinforced there is nothing wrong with that as a career and owning her own gym. While my example is this - there are other examples like trades, autos, etc. where there are supply limitations of quality labor and thus excellent career potential in these areas. There is a role for higher education and we have emphasized that - but it can be for getting additional skills that can help you manage and run a business as a successful entrepreneur.

3). Probably the wisest thing I heard from our private college counselor for our son was to look primarily at fit - where he learns and feels the best as well as academically where he has the highest chance to succeed. He reinforced a point from a Malcolm Gladwell book where a student went to Brown as a top student in her high school (smaller high school) who was extremely talented in biology and the sciences. She ended up getting Bs in intro classes and thought she was not very good at science and transferred her major to English. She ended up not doing a STEM career even though that is what she loved in HS. Her rationale was that she was not that good at science. Ironically, a number of her friends who did not do as well academically in HS who went to less academically rigorous colleges ended up in STEM careers earning more than she did when they all graduated. The point is that we tend to think of ourselves in relation to those around us - not us in absolute terms. Therefore finishing in the lower 1/3 rd of a class at an Ivy to most on this board is still an accomplishment but maintaining that perspective when a student feels beat down by being the bottom of the class consistently for four years does not help their self esteem nor help them stay in a career they may have chosen if they had more positive experiences at a different school where let’s say they were always in the top 20% of all students…. Just food for thought and hope it helps…..
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Vulcan »

Sho wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:42 am Parents who went through the college process recently ,
What should the kids do to increase their chances of getting into good colleges
As a parent of a recently early-graduated college junior and a current high school junior, I have a two-part answer to your question.

First and foremost, the best thing written on the matter of "what should the kids do", in my opinion, is this little essay by Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

Applying Sideways

I only came across it after our older sent out his college applications, but as it turns out, it's been our family philosophy all along.

A very distant second, and do take it for what it's worth, but, to partially illuminate the "what does it take" side of the question, here is a long-running College Confidential community-generated list of perceived relative worth of various extracurricular accomplishments:

List of Top, Prestigious Awards

I am providing it here not to be authoritative or prescriptive (see "Applying Sideways" essay above), but to be descriptive in a way of what is out there, and how relatively unremarkable such commonly vaunted distinctions as National Merit Finalist really are (a 4 out of 10 on that list).
Last edited by Vulcan on Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by IowaFarmWife »

Watty wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:50 pm Two things that have not been mentioned yet.

1) You need to be cautious about putting too much pressure on your kid to get into the "right" college. There is a high school in an affluent area of Silicon Valley that has be called the grim nickname of "Suicide High" after a cluster of teen suicides due in part to the high pressure that the students were under. Even if you are not consciously putting demands on your kid to be a high achiever they may feel that when when they are going through the college selection process especially if they are being told early to take lots of AP classes and to be in a leadership roll in lots of activities.

2) Be open to the possibility that college may not be the right path for your kid. Some kids might thrive if they go to a vocational school and learn a trade instead or go into the military. That might not be a path you would want to encourage but it would be good to keep that open as an option.
This is the best answer yet.^^^^
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by gips »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:38 pm First and foremost, the best thing written on the matter of "what should the kids do", in my opinion, is this little essay by Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

Applying Sideways

I only came across it after our older sent out his college applications, but as it turns out, it's been our family philosophy all along.
I find Mr. Peterson's essay, like most essays by people who work at colleges and endeavor to answer this question, glib.

"A few years ago, we did not admit a student who had created a fully-functional nuclear reactor in his garage.
Think about that for a second.
Now, most students, when I tell them this story, become depressed. After all, if the kid who built a freakin’ nuclear reactor didn’t get in to MIT, what chance do they have?
But they have it backwards. In fact, this story should be incredibly encouraging for most students. It should be liberating. Why? Because over a thousand other students were admitted to MIT that year, and none of them built a nuclear reactor!"

really, that's supposed to be reassuring? My first question is "why wasn't that student admitted?"

Peterson's three principles of do well in school, be nice, and pursue your passion have been repeated by colleges in different ways ad infinitum. Pleasant sounding but wouldn't a data driven approach be a little more helpful. How about:
- you have to finish in the top 10 per cent of your class and
- your math sat must be > 700 and
- if you happen to be White, non-Hispanic, we admitted 238 students from your demographic. Divide that by two for the male/female split. So 119 white students out of 32k applicants.

I don't mean to pick on MIT, I think they're pretty good with admissions but I do think colleges could provide better data and direction to potential applicants.

best,
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Jags4186 »

gips wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:24 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:38 pm First and foremost, the best thing written on the matter of "what should the kids do", in my opinion, is this little essay by Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

Applying Sideways

I only came across it after our older sent out his college applications, but as it turns out, it's been our family philosophy all along.
I find Mr. Peterson's essay, like most essays by people who work at colleges and endeavor to answer this question, glib.

"A few years ago, we did not admit a student who had created a fully-functional nuclear reactor in his garage.
Think about that for a second.
Now, most students, when I tell them this story, become depressed. After all, if the kid who built a freakin’ nuclear reactor didn’t get in to MIT, what chance do they have?
But they have it backwards. In fact, this story should be incredibly encouraging for most students. It should be liberating. Why? Because over a thousand other students were admitted to MIT that year, and none of them built a nuclear reactor!"

really, that's supposed to be reassuring? My first question is "why wasn't that student admitted?"

Peterson's three principles of do well in school, be nice, and pursue your passion have been repeated by colleges in different ways ad infinitum. Pleasant sounding but wouldn't a data driven approach be a little more helpful. How about:
- you have to finish in the top 10 per cent of your class and
- your math sat must be > 700 and
- if you happen to be White, non-Hispanic, we admitted 238 students from your demographic. Divide that by two for the male/female split. So 119 white students out of 32k applicants.

I don't mean to pick on MIT, I think they're pretty good with admissions but I do think colleges could provide better data and direction to potential applicants.

best,
They didn't admit the student because they probably had to alert the Department of Energy and special agents would be raiding the home and sending the student to Guantanamo Bay before the admittance offer letter arrived.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Vulcan »

gips wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:24 pm I find Mr. Peterson's essay, like most essays by people who work at colleges and endeavor to answer this question, glib.
A little, yes :-)
"A few years ago, we did not admit a student who had created a fully-functional nuclear reactor in his garage.
Think about that for a second.
Now, most students, when I tell them this story, become depressed. After all, if the kid who built a freakin’ nuclear reactor didn’t get in to MIT, what chance do they have?
But they have it backwards. In fact, this story should be incredibly encouraging for most students. It should be liberating. Why? Because over a thousand other students were admitted to MIT that year, and none of them built a nuclear reactor!"

really, that's supposed to be reassuring?
He didn't say "reassuring". He said "liberating".

Doing things for college admissions is a recipe for disappointment.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Vulcan »

gips wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:24 pm Peterson's three principles of do well in school, be nice, and pursue your passion have been repeated by colleges in different ways ad infinitum. Pleasant sounding but wouldn't a data driven approach be a little more helpful. How about:
- you have to finish in the top 10 per cent of your class and
- your math sat must be > 700 and
- if you happen to be White, non-Hispanic, we admitted 238 students from your demographic. Divide that by two for the male/female split. So 119 white students out of 32k applicants.

I don't mean to pick on MIT, I think they're pretty good with admissions but I do think colleges could provide better data and direction to potential applicants.
All the numbers above would be way off for MIT, so I presume they are made up to make a point.

To this point, he wrote another essay:

The Difficulty With Data

"First, I’d like to say that I’m a huge fan of statistics. I read 538 and Football Outsiders every day. When it comes to baseball I’m a converted sabremetrician. In the natural world, I believe in the scientific method, which is to say I believe in data-driven analyses of phenomena, empirical evidence, and testable hypothesis as the best, and sometimes only, route to understanding most things which occur in our universe.

But there is a problem with social science, and that problem is this: sometimes, you don’t have all of the data, either because it is unavailable to you, or because something can’t be captured. And then, if you try to build a model based on these incomplete data, you are liable to draw conclusions consistent with the data but descriptively incorrect."

That said, I am no fan of the American "holistic admissions" system, and its seedy roots, and wrote about it on this forum many times.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by fyre4ce »

gips wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:24 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:38 pm First and foremost, the best thing written on the matter of "what should the kids do", in my opinion, is this little essay by Chris Peterson of MIT Admissions:

Applying Sideways

I only came across it after our older sent out his college applications, but as it turns out, it's been our family philosophy all along.
I find Mr. Peterson's essay, like most essays by people who work at colleges and endeavor to answer this question, glib.

"A few years ago, we did not admit a student who had created a fully-functional nuclear reactor in his garage.
Think about that for a second.
Now, most students, when I tell them this story, become depressed. After all, if the kid who built a freakin’ nuclear reactor didn’t get in to MIT, what chance do they have?
But they have it backwards. In fact, this story should be incredibly encouraging for most students. It should be liberating. Why? Because over a thousand other students were admitted to MIT that year, and none of them built a nuclear reactor!"

really, that's supposed to be reassuring? My first question is "why wasn't that student admitted?"

Peterson's three principles of do well in school, be nice, and pursue your passion have been repeated by colleges in different ways ad infinitum. Pleasant sounding but wouldn't a data driven approach be a little more helpful. How about:
- you have to finish in the top 10 per cent of your class and
- your math sat must be > 700 and
- if you happen to be White, non-Hispanic, we admitted 238 students from your demographic. Divide that by two for the male/female split. So 119 white students out of 32k applicants.

I don't mean to pick on MIT, I think they're pretty good with admissions but I do think colleges could provide better data and direction to potential applicants.

best,
A fully functional nuclear reactor? Color me skeptical. They probably did not admit him because he is either lying (most likely), doesn’t understand what he built, or somehow succeeded and placed his city at risk for radioactive contamination.

On a more serious note, very slightly off topic, but for my own curiosity, what is the current state of admissions for very top universities (Harvard, MIT, etc)? Like, what does a high schooler need to have a reasonable chance at getting into one of these schools? My kids are young so this is many years away, but wondering how it changed since I was that age.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Vulcan »

fyre4ce wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:52 pm A fully functional nuclear reactor? Color me skeptical. They probably did not admit him because he is either lying (most likely), doesn’t understand what he built, or somehow succeeded and placed his city at risk for radioactive contamination.
This guy, perhaps?

https://kidsdiscover.com/quick-reads/ar ... or-garage/
On a more serious note, very slightly off topic, but for my own curiosity, what is the current state of admissions for very top universities (Harvard, MIT, etc)? Like, what does a high schooler need to have a reasonable chance at getting into one of these schools? My kids are young so this is many years away, but wondering how it changed since I was that age.
The admission rates at the very top schools are around 5%.

I don't know how one defines a reasonable chance at these places, but being a national merit finalist (or thereabout) is just table stakes. I refer you back to my earlier post for some perspective on relative rarity of various extracurricular distinctions.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by fourballs »

We just went through the whole college application process with our oldest and doing it again with our 2nd later this fall.

Does your school have Naviance? If it does, it is an excellent tool that provides actual data of how kids at your (kid's) high school have fared at each college in the past, with x's and checkmarks indicating acceptances and rejections, using x-axis as GPA and y-axis as SAT score. So a kid at the top right hand corner is an academic star. This is a good and relevant tool to assess your child's chance at each school.

I've found this forum to be much much more informative than College Confidential when it comes to anything related to colleges and I would definitely read the books that others have mentioned. I would add Colleges that Change Lives to your reading list.

For any school with a less than 15-20% (or even higher) acceptance rate, provided you've got the vital stats i.e. GPA/SAT/ACT, you have to view it as a game of chance. I find anecdotal examples of whose kid got accepted/rejected not helpful and rather distracting because while the schools have huge amt of data with a very opaque process, you have only a couple of examples and none of them are exactly your child.

I wish I had done deeper research on schools, what others call "fit". There are some really interesting schools and programs out there that I wish I had known about. We were too focused on ranking--big big mistake, and only realized later that many highly ranked schools are not great choices for our kid. For example, ultra small, rural or huge state schools. We should have narrowed down to the "right" geographies and then looked closely at likely choices, maybe even looking at major and graduation requirements. So now our ultra urban kid is going to a small private LAC in a tiny town many hours away. But she did get a huge coupon off tuition and she'll have a chance to try subjects such as math and physics which I doubt she would have wanted to at a higher ranked school. And we'll do much much better for kids #2 and 3.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by carminered2019 »

At least in California, GPA and SAT alone will not automatically get you into UCLA. My daughter got in as a nursing major as a group of 30 out of 2,000 applicants. She did a lot of volunteering work with local hospitals, The Red Cross, and UNICEF with a 4.5 GPA, many AP classes and high SAT score.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by fyre4ce »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:28 pm
fyre4ce wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:52 pm A fully functional nuclear reactor? Color me skeptical. They probably did not admit him because he is either lying (most likely), doesn’t understand what he built, or somehow succeeded and placed his city at risk for radioactive contamination.
This guy, perhaps?

https://kidsdiscover.com/quick-reads/ar ... or-garage/
On a more serious note, very slightly off topic, but for my own curiosity, what is the current state of admissions for very top universities (Harvard, MIT, etc)? Like, what does a high schooler need to have a reasonable chance at getting into one of these schools? My kids are young so this is many years away, but wondering how it changed since I was that age.
The admission rates at the very top schools are around 5%.

I don't know how one defines a reasonable chance at these places, but being a national merit finalist (or thereabout) is just table stakes. I refer you back to my earlier post for some perspective on relative rarity of various extracurricular distinctions.
Thanks very much. The guy you linked built a "fusor" which, while I wouldn't describe it as a "fully functional nuclear reactor", is still pretty cool. There was also this guy who built a neutron source and turned his parents' house into a superfund site.

One kid from my high school got accepted to all the top-tier schools. He was EXTREMELY smart, but also driven like a rented mule by his mother, enrolling in international science fairs and other stuff that I'm sure has contemporary equivalents on that list you linked. It didn't sit quite right with me that he seemed to be doing most of it for the prestige rather than a true passion. The projects were scattered across different subjects, but he did well at all of them. That theme continued through his higher education; at one point he was dual-enrolled in an MD program at Harvard and a PhD program at MIT and (this is no joke) was looking into adding a JD into the mix as well. He ended up becoming a neurosurgeon because, of course, and also founded a couple silicon valley startups, one having to do with crypto. Last I checked neither had really taken off. I just hope he is doing the things he's doing because he really enjoys them, not out of need for external admiration.

My path was different. I got turned down by MIT (my grades were very good but not outstanding) and went to a slightly less prestigious school, where I got a great education. Through college and after, I focused all my energy into one narrow area, worked extremely hard at it, and had some very rewarding successes, which I am still proud of a decade or two later. It turned into a nice career where I earn a decent income (nowhere near brain surgeon level though), work on cool stuff, and have a decent work/life balance. I think I would probably choose to do things over the same way again, if I could, and this is more the type of path I plan to encourage my kids to follow as they get older.
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

fourballs wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:56 am We just went through the whole college application process with our oldest and doing it again with our 2nd later this fall.

Does your school have Naviance? If it does, it is an excellent tool that provides actual data of how kids at your (kid's) high school have fared at each college in the past, with x's and checkmarks indicating acceptances and rejections, using x-axis as GPA and y-axis as SAT score. So a kid at the top right hand corner is an academic star. This is a good and relevant tool to assess your child's chance at each school.

I've found this forum to be much much more informative than College Confidential when it comes to anything related to colleges and I would definitely read the books that others have mentioned. I would add Colleges that Change Lives to your reading list.

For any school with a less than 15-20% (or even higher) acceptance rate, provided you've got the vital stats i.e. GPA/SAT/ACT, you have to view it as a game of chance. I find anecdotal examples of whose kid got accepted/rejected not helpful and rather distracting because while the schools have huge amt of data with a very opaque process, you have only a couple of examples and none of them are exactly your child.

I wish I had done deeper research on schools, what others call "fit". There are some really interesting schools and programs out there that I wish I had known about. We were too focused on ranking--big big mistake, and only realized later that many highly ranked schools are not great choices for our kid. For example, ultra small, rural or huge state schools. We should have narrowed down to the "right" geographies and then looked closely at likely choices, maybe even looking at major and graduation requirements. So now our ultra urban kid is going to a small private LAC in a tiny town many hours away. But she did get a huge coupon off tuition and she'll have a chance to try subjects such as math and physics which I doubt she would have wanted to at a higher ranked school. And we'll do much much better for kids #2 and 3.
Great post. I’d like my kids to apply to Canadian and British schools as backups or even primaries. Many benefits imo. Change of scene, people, great colleges, broader life perspective and perhaps a job/life in another country. Especially as the US will always be an option for them for grad school or jobs. Wonder if any others have done this on this forum?
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Sho
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Sho »

fourballs wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 1:56 am We just went through the whole college application process with our oldest and doing it again with our 2nd later this fall.

Does your school have Naviance? If it does, it is an excellent tool that provides actual data of how kids at your (kid's) high school have fared at each college in the past, with x's and checkmarks indicating acceptances and rejections, using x-axis as GPA and y-axis as SAT score. So a kid at the top right hand corner is an academic star. This is a good and relevant tool to assess your child's chance at each school.

I've found this forum to be much much more informative than College Confidential when it comes to anything related to colleges and I would definitely read the books that others have mentioned. I would add Colleges that Change Lives to your reading list.

For any school with a less than 15-20% (or even higher) acceptance rate, provided you've got the vital stats i.e. GPA/SAT/ACT, you have to view it as a game of chance. I find anecdotal examples of whose kid got accepted/rejected not helpful and rather distracting because while the schools have huge amt of data with a very opaque process, you have only a couple of examples and none of them are exactly your child.

I wish I had done deeper research on schools, what others call "fit". There are some really interesting schools and programs out there that I wish I had known about. We were too focused on ranking--big big mistake, and only realized later that many highly ranked schools are not great choices for our kid. For example, ultra small, rural or huge state schools. We should have narrowed down to the "right" geographies and then looked closely at likely choices, maybe even looking at major and graduation requirements. So now our ultra urban kid is going to a small private LAC in a tiny town many hours away. But she did get a huge coupon off tuition and she'll have a chance to try subjects such as math and physics which I doubt she would have wanted to at a higher ranked school. And we'll do much much better for kids #2 and 3.
Agree, Forum is great , so are Forum members . I m on my first book, second one is in mail
First kid is the “ Guinea pig” unfortunately
Will ask School about Naviance .
It’s a decent school, many kids going to “ Elite” colleges
this year .
Once again, Thank you all
DoubleComma
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by DoubleComma »

carminered2019 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:14 am At least in California, GPA and SAT alone will not automatically get you into UCLA. My daughter got in as a nursing major as a group of 30 out of 2,000 applicants. She did a lot of volunteering work with local hospitals, The Red Cross, and UNICEF with a 4.5 GPA, many AP classes and high SAT score.
For certain in California SAT/ACT will not even be considered for admission to the University of California system. You can submit, they will be ignored. It has been this way since Fall 2020 admissions.

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... u%20enroll.

"Exam requirement
UC will not consider SAT or ACT test scores when making admissions decisions or awarding scholarships. If you choose to submit test scores as part of your application, they may be used as an alternative method of fulfilling minimum requirements for eligibility or for course placement after you enroll."
Leesbro63
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Leesbro63 »

If you won’t qualify for aid, applying “early decision” to a “reach school” may help. I don’t have solid proof, but it seemed that my kids, now late 20s early 30s, saw friends get into top schools via early decision. Perhaps the schools like admitting a certain number of students who are basically stipulating to pay full tuition.
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Sho
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Sho »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:02 pm If you won’t qualify for aid, applying “early decision” to a “reach school” may help. I don’t have solid proof, but it seemed that my kids, now late 20s early 30s, saw friends get into top schools via early decision. Perhaps the schools like admitting a certain number of students who are basically stipulating to pay full tuition.
I have heard the same
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Leesbro63 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 6:02 pm If you won’t qualify for aid, applying “early decision” to a “reach school” may help. I don’t have solid proof, but it seemed that my kids, now late 20s early 30s, saw friends get into top schools via early decision. Perhaps the schools like admitting a certain number of students who are basically stipulating to pay full tuition.
The better schools will be fair in their need based aid regardless of application type. There are many reasons other than being cheap with financial aid that a school would prefer early action.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
carminered2019
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by carminered2019 »

DoubleComma wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 5:59 pm
carminered2019 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:14 am At least in California, GPA and SAT alone will not automatically get you into UCLA. My daughter got in as a nursing major as a group of 30 out of 2,000 applicants. She did a lot of volunteering work with local hospitals, The Red Cross, and UNICEF with a 4.5 GPA, many AP classes and high SAT score.
For certain in California SAT/ACT will not even be considered for admission to the University of California system. You can submit, they will be ignored. It has been this way since Fall 2020 admissions.

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... u%20enroll.

"Exam requirement
UC will not consider SAT or ACT test scores when making admissions decisions or awarding scholarships. If you choose to submit test scores as part of your application, they may be used as an alternative method of fulfilling minimum requirements for eligibility or for course placement after you enroll."
I think they lowered the SAT/ACT scores in the name of diversity or representation.
jay99
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:33 pm

Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by jay99 »

Agree 110%...........3 kids all done and doing well with below model. One had free merit ride to average school and completed Masters at Ivy. All under 30 years old, and now making over six figures with no college debt and living on there own. Don't get caught up in the hype of where your kid is going to college. Go to the school that wants you. All my kids received huge Merit dollars and zero financial aide.

"Apply to 5 or 10 that should be easy acceptances. They will desperately want your kid's higher than school average GPA and test scores. Don't be shy about accepting and then threatening to decline offers. We went full bore and got very significant merit aid at multiple schools that magically kept rising even though we were initially told that it was not possible."
Last edited by jay99 on Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LeftCoastIV
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by LeftCoastIV »

Regarding test scores, now that the majority of schools are optional (and some blind), the effect appears to be that only kids with impressive scores submit their scores, thus increasing the average scores at each school. I haven’t looked historically for comparison, but if you look at the 25th/50th/75th percentile scores for good (but not elite) schools, they are pretty high.

I expect this cycle to perpetuate itself each year, where only kids who can “beat” last years 50th or 75th percentile scores will submit their scores, and the average score will rise even more.

The net is that if your kid isn’t a strong test taker (based on their PSAT), focus your energy elsewhere.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

jay99 wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:50 pm Agree 110%...........3 kids all done and doing well with below model. One had free merit ride to average school and completed Masters at Ivy. All under 30 years old, and now making over six figures with no college debt and living on there own. Don't get caught up in the hype of where your kid is going to college.

"Apply to 5 or 10 that should be easy acceptances. They will desperately want your kid's higher than school average GPA and test scores. Don't be shy about accepting and then threatening to decline offers. We went full bore and got very significant merit aid at multiple schools that magically kept rising even though we were initially told that it was not possible."
I get this advice and will follow when the time comes.
Reminds me of buying a car from a dealer. What have we come to :oops:
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
HereToLearn
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Re: Parents with kids in colleges? What does it take?

Post by HereToLearn »

LeftCoastIV wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:52 pm Regarding test scores, now that the majority of schools are optional (and some blind), the effect appears to be that only kids with impressive scores submit their scores, thus increasing the average scores at each school. I haven’t looked historically for comparison, but if you look at the 25th/50th/75th percentile scores for good (but not elite) schools, they are pretty high.

I expect this cycle to perpetuate itself each year, where only kids who can “beat” last years 50th or 75th percentile scores will submit their scores, and the average score will rise even more.

The net is that if your kid isn’t a strong test taker (based on their PSAT), focus your energy elsewhere.
This is absolutely true. Northeastern is one school this spring that bluntly told applicants not to submit unless scores were above a certain rather high level. Schools are now using these high SAT scores in their marketing materials.

If one scores well on the 10th grade PSAT, it is definitely worthwhile to prep for the 11th grade PSAT since it is the NMSQT and could result in full tuition scholarship at a handful of state schools.
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