College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

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Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

tyrion wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:30 pm Then waitlisted at a few UCs (UCSC, UCLA) but thankfully did get into UCSD in CS. No luck at Cal Poly SLO. A few other 'safe' schools turned out to not be so safe.
Similar story here, waitlisted at Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD, Davis, Cal Poly SLO. Congrats to your son on UCSD!

Was kind of optimistic about the waitlists until I looked up stats on % of kids coming off these waitlists (around 3%) and realized that if he does get off the waitlists it'll probably be to a 2nd choice major also (ie. not CS).
Last edited by Tirebiter on Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KlangFool
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

8301 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:12 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:26 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive),
Tirebiter,

Can he continue his internship while going to the university?

I worked in the University Computing Center while earning my BSEE and MSEE. I graduated with 5 years of working experience. I never have to compete with the fresh graduate with no working experience. No one look at my degree at all when I graduated.

KlangFool
There are pluses and minuses with working while studying at college unless worked at top notch employers such as research labs which helped your career. How has your career progressed in the long term if word "long" is applicable?
8301,

1) I installed LAN in the 80s a few years after Novell was just funded. The university had the latest and greatest networking and computing equipment donated by all the leading suppliers.

"How has your career progressed in the long term if word "long" is applicable?"

2) I do not believe in long career. I am a failure because I did not early retire at 49 years old like my older brother and older sister. I made a serious mistake at Telecom Bust that costed my early retirement.

3) My older brother worked 40 hours per week and earned his BSEE in 2 1/2 years with CGPA of 4.0. He was Summa Cum Laude. While working full time at the megacorp, he founded 3 companies and sold 2. He early retired at 49 years old and traveled all over the world for fun. I need to check his facebook page in order to find out where he is at the moment.

4) To each its own. There are more than one path to be successful.

5) Some pays for a shiny degree. Meanwhile, others get paid for their degree plus earning working experience at the same time.

A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.

KlangFool
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warner25
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by warner25 »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm [snip]
He is a high stats kid (3.9 unweighted GPA, 4.5 weighted GPA, mid-1500s SAT) who is familiar with several programming languages (Swift, Java, Javascript).
[snip]
Is that a mid-1500s SAT on the 1600 scale? (hadn't it switched to 2400 at some point?)

I have no advice, but just wanted to chime in and say wow, sounds like a really smart kid and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to get into top colleges (which I guess even includes state flagships now) these days!

11-12 years until I have a kid applying to colleges but these recent threads on it has already turned it into something I'm not looking forward to!
I was thinking the same thing. It seems like 2/3 of college threads are like this, and this is "non-elite" and getting rejected by state schools? My kids are similar in age to yours, and I just have no idea what this stuff is going to look like for them in another decade.

I don't know if anyone in my whole high school class scored 1500+ on the SAT. I was also a CS major among a small group of odd-balls, none of whom seemed to have much programming experience beyond the C++ or Java taught in the high school AP course, if their high school had it; mine didn't. Now at my alma mater, CS is the single most popular major, the admissions rate for the school is rapidly approaching single digits, and my own 1450 SAT score would put me in the bottom half of admitted students.
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retireIn2020
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by retireIn2020 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm
8301 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:12 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:26 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive),
Tirebiter,

Can he continue his internship while going to the university?

I worked in the University Computing Center while earning my BSEE and MSEE. I graduated with 5 years of working experience. I never have to compete with the fresh graduate with no working experience. No one look at my degree at all when I graduated.

KlangFool
There are pluses and minuses with working while studying at college unless worked at top notch employers such as research labs which helped your career. How has your career progressed in the long term if word "long" is applicable?
8301,

1) I installed LAN in the 80s a few years after Novell was just funded. The university had the latest and greatest networking and computing equipment donated by all the leading suppliers.

"How has your career progressed in the long term if word "long" is applicable?"

2) I do not believe in long career. I am a failure because I did not early retire at 49 years old like my older brother and older sister. I made a serious mistake at Telecom Bust that costed my early retirement.

3) My older brother worked 40 hours per week and earned his BSEE in 2 1/2 years with CGPA of 4.0. He was Summa Cum Laude. While working full time at the megacorp, he founded 3 companies and sold 2. He early retired at 49 years old and traveled all over the world for fun. I need to check his facebook page in order to find out where he is at the moment.

4) To each its own. There are more than one path to be successful.

5) Some pays for a shiny degree. Meanwhile, others get paid for their degree plus earning working experience at the same time.

A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.

KlangFool
100% agree, the bottom line is that a software engineer is nothing more than a fairly well-paid grunt at Mega Corp and falls in the Individual Contributor level. If paying for a high-end school, one should be looking at Director level and above IT jobs that have nothing to do with coding or projects (other than budget).

Typically (in the Mega Corp realm), there are two career paths in IT, one is technical and the other is management. A complete understanding of these paths should be obtained prior to committing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abide
Northern Flicker
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

The founders of Nvidia recently donated $50M to Oregon State U. to found a supercomputer research center:

https://today.oregonstate.edu/news/50-m ... rch-center
turnturnturn
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by turnturnturn »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm Santa Clara definitely seems more “serious” about CS but he was accepted as a Computer Science and Engineering major and since applying has decided he’s not that interested in the hardware aspect of Computer Engineering.
So far as I can see, the requirements for the CS+Engineering degree at SCU don't seem all that different from those at any other university where comp sci falls within the college of engineering (the vast majority these days). There isn't much hardware emphasis; this is not a computer engineering degree.
pseudoiterative
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by pseudoiterative »

The academic subject of computer science is not the same as the real-world trade of software engineering. A lot of the subjects that are taught in a computer science degree are largely irrelevant to what is helpful when working in industry as a software engineer. The academic field of computer science has more in common with pure mathematics than it does with engineering or science -- occasionally some of the theory can be usefully applied in a real world software project, but often the theory is irrelevant.

In Australia, some universities offer dedicated undergraduate courses for Software Engineering. These de-emphasise a heavy focus on theoretical computer science topics in favor of covering more practical engineering focused topics like requirements, system design, project management, QA, practical experience in group software projects, and courses that have more of an overlap with business (e.g. commercialization, intellectual property). For someone aiming to work in industry, these latter more engineering-focused and business-focused courses are covering aspects of real world software projects that are going to appear again and again. For someone who enjoys writing code or pure math, these more applied engineering or business courses are going to be less fun than writing code or proving theorems, but they are things that need to be done again and again in real projects. And for anyone who becomes skilled at managing IT or software projects, my word, if you get a reputation of being able to lead a software project to successful delivery, or salvage one that has gone off the rails, you are likely going to be in a lot higher demand than another individual contributor software engineer.

Where I live, there's no accreditation process or regulation for who can be a software engineer. You don't need to sit anything like the Bar exam (a Foo-Bar exam?). You don't need an undergraduate degree in computer science, software engineering, STEM, or anything else. You don't need any certificates from Red Hat or AWS. Anyone who wishes to can decide to call themselves a software engineer - if you can convince someone to pay you for doing it, congratulations, you're a professional software engineer! Before the popular title was "software engineer", it was "software developer", and maybe a bit earlier it was "programmer / analyst" or "programmer". It's roughly a trade, a white collar trade. The trade of software engineering is less regulated than being a plumber or an electrician, for better or worse!

That said, to have a decent change at a job with the title "software engineer" in any popular firm that receives a large volume of job applications and uses the dreaded whiteboard algorithms interview as a screening tool, it would be helpful to have been exposed to the content of an "introduction to algorithms" course and to have an understanding of some of the basic theory behind common data structures, and a decent practical knowledge of when and how to apply those common data structures to turn your ideas for solutions into working code, and an ability to explain to someone what you've done and why, in an artificial high-pressure situation.

(my background: self taught programmer; trained in pure math; have worked on commercial software projects for the last decade. it's been a good trade and a pretty easy way to make a living, what's taught in university is largely irrelevant vs what you can learn on the job, in real software projects, working in a team, learning from the experienced folks, getting paid to learn)
chinchin
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by chinchin »

CSE doesn't mean you work on hardware. That would be an EE degree.
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pseudoiterative
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by pseudoiterative »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:40 pm These were summer internships, but he has maintained good relationships with these employers. One of them suggested that my son work for them full time instead of going to college, which was cool, but I don't think the type of work he was doing would be conducive to a part time arrangement.
It's definitely possible to find part time work building software. Especially with smaller companies. Smaller companies may struggle to compete with larger companies for talented employees, as they can't match the salary or benefits -- but they may be willing to be flexible with a part time arrangement, if they can get hold of someone talented who they would not have much chance of hiring as a fresh grad. Another angle is that some small growing software businesses or consultancies may simply not have the budget or work to have another person on full time but might very happily have a competent junior there a few days a week. As a person early in their career gaining experience, as long as you end up in a project with some good people to rapidly learn from and gain a lot of useful skills and practical experience, that's the most important thing - and you can find that in small companies as well.

I had a former colleague who worked part time while doing a PhD -- between a tax free PhD scholarship and income from working a few days each week from below market wages at a small software company, he had a very livable income for a PhD student, then quit and got a full time job at a FAANG company once the PhD was done.
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Post by phositadc »

delete
Last edited by phositadc on Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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warner25
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by warner25 »

phositadc wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:17 am...I just don't understand the weather hate that Seattle gets...
I haven't lived in the northwest, only visited in summer (which was lovely), but my wife and I have always been moderately interested in the area. I agree that the temperatures seem nice. What concerns us are these numbers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_duration

Seattle sees an average of only 72.7, 52.9, and 69.8 hours of sunshine per month in November, December, and January. That's lower than almost any other city in North America, on par with Alaska, about 1/2 or even 1/3 of the sunshine in Boston, NYC, and DC which aren't known for having cheerful winters (of course, they're colder and snowier). Lack of sunshine appears to have well-established effects on mental health. However, nearly every city across Europe gets even less sunshine and I guess people there live happily.
happy_statistician
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by happy_statistician »

If your son wants to be a software engineer then he doesn't necessarily need a CS major. If he would enjoy UCSB I might consider that. Data science/stats and CS skills are highly complementary in both directions. The risks are
1) As a non-major he may have trouble registering for CS classes he'd like to take
2) The more advanced math that's part of a college stats degree may not suit him and he may struggle even though he seems like a great student


(I'm a data scientist at a big tech company, trained as a statistician, so I think my bias is evident :)
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quantAndHold
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by quantAndHold »

phositadc wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:17 am
FlamePoint wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:16 pm Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Lived in Seattle for over 30 years due our jobs and couldn’t get out of there fast enough when we retired. Moved south for more year round sunshine. The long dark, grey, drizzly winter months should not be underestimated. Spring is also typically rainy and mostly cold. Summer is a short 2 months, but you may get lucky with a September Indian summer. I get that some folks love that type of weather. We did not fall into this group.
In case anybody reading this thread is now curious, this is what Weatherspark says about Seattle weather:

https://weatherspark.com/y/913/Average- ... Year-Round.

Partly cloudy or clear at least about 50% of the time from June-ish through October-ish and that the really "grey" months are mid-Nov through about March. Between 5-7-ish" of rain per month Nov through Feb, but the other 8 months of the year range from 0.7" (July) to 4.5" (March) with an average monthly rainfall for those 8 months of only 2.4".

As to the allegedly rare "September Indian Summer," Weatherspark says this about the average September: average high temp of 71, average low of 54, sunny 60% of the time, and only 1.8" of rain spread over 6 days.

As to any suggestion that the weather is "bad" the majority of the year, unless you consider something like an average May high of 66 degrees, an average May low of 50 degrees, sunny 50% of the time, and 2.2" of rain spread over 9 days to be "bad." I think most people would think that sounds pretty good. April, September, and October are not too far from May in terms of those numbers. And of course, June-Sept the numbers are even better.

No "heat stroke" season. No tornadoes, hurricanes, thunderstorms. No blizzards. No or very few: ticks, poisonous bugs, poisonous snakes. No yellow dust coating everything and causing people to choke in March and April. But there is a "wildfire smoke" season that usually lasts a week or two. And there is earthquake risk.

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but I just don't understand the weather hate that Seattle gets. You be the judge, fellow boglehead.
It isn’t so much the weather. It’s the lack of daylight. Between mid-November and the end of February, I was both going to work and coming home in the dark. Between the consistently grey, drizzly weather, and the fact that the sun is so low in the sky that it just feels dim, even at noon, winters (which last a very long time) are just miserable. Spring and fall are just less drizzly and more rainy. Summer is lovely, but nobody has air conditioning, so a few 80 degree days strung together can really start to grate.

Between the ten months of depression and the horrendous, unavoidable traffic, I couldn’t get out of that place soon enough.
Big Dog
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Big Dog »

"a foreign language requirement, which my son does not like"

The Jesuits are big on a core curriculum for everyone, and which includes foreign language. That said, he'd take a proficiency test in orientation or online and likely only have to take one class beyond what he took in HS for UC/CSU applications.
chinchin
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by chinchin »

phositadc wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:17 am

No "heat stroke" season.
I don't know what qualifies as "heat stroke" season. Having said that, these are the yearly highs in Seattle:

Max (°F) - Date
95 - July 31, 2022
108 - June 28, 2021
98 - August 16, 2020
95 - June 12, 2019
Last edited by chinchin on Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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celia
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by celia »

I would look at the stats that each college is required to post on their website to see the percentage of students that graduate in 4 and 6 years, with an eye out to what covid did to attendance the last four years.

I would also look at the CS courses each offers and which of those are required for the CS major. Keep in mind how often each class is taught. Some of the advanced classes might only be taught once every other year. Looking forward to something that is appealing would be my biggest decision criterion.

Although UCSB has the party reputation, I also know two grads from there who started out in well-paying tech jobs. But they also came from a wealthy family who were able to expose them to lots of opportunities as kids.
MMiroir
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by MMiroir »

Here are the choices with median early career incomes from College Scorecard appended.

Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k - N/A
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k - $102,001
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k - $131,065
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k - $76,755
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k - $73,993
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k - $84,460

Some comments on these schools along with some other data from www.asee.org is as follows:
  • Loyola Marymount did not report any sufficient data to report median income information. However, the school of engineering is tiny, and they only graduated 40 CS majors in 2020 which is the last year reported. With this small number of graduates, your not going to get strong industry recruiting or participation.
  • Seattle graduated 57 CS majors in 2020. Once again a small class but at least you are in a city with a strong CS employer base which likely why starting salaries are so high.
  • Santa Clara graduated 248 CS, is located in the heart of Silicon Valley, and had by far highest median early career salaries. Being in San Jose, it is the best place to get internships.
  • San Diego State graduated 200 CS majors plus 81 CSE majors so it is a major program although the CS degrees are outside the engineering program. However, salaries are nearly the lowest among this pool.
  • Fordham does not have an engineering school, and their website does not provide any statistics on the program I could find. Given the low salary levels in a high cost of living area, it looks like a weak program.
  • Oregon State graduate 651 CS majors so it is a major program. However, Corvalis is somewhat isolated from major tech areas which is likely why salaries are average.
Among the CS choices, Santa Clara is the clear winner with a robust number of students, great tech location and an average starting salary $30,000 higher than the nearest competitor.

Seattle looks like the number 2 choice based on location and outcomes although the small size of the program would be a concern.

San Diego State and Oregon State are similar in terms of outcomes, but offer very different locations.

I would drop Loyola Marymount and Fordham from consideration. They are the weakest programs by far.

You can look up graduation and enrollment demographics by school at the following link which is provided by the American Society of Engineering Education:

https://shinyapps.asee.org/apps/Profiles/

The ASEE contains demographic information on enrollment and graduates by major, country of origin, gender and race, and schools can vary dramatically in terms of their demographic makeup.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

turnturnturn wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:43 am
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm Santa Clara definitely seems more “serious” about CS but he was accepted as a Computer Science and Engineering major and since applying has decided he’s not that interested in the hardware aspect of Computer Engineering.
So far as I can see, the requirements for the CS+Engineering degree at SCU don't seem all that different from those at any other university where comp sci falls within the college of engineering (the vast majority these days). There isn't much hardware emphasis; this is not a computer engineering degree.
Correct. While I think Oregon State has a stronger CS faculty, SCU is in silicon valley, so a case can be made for either. Oregon State is near the silicon forest, which has a large Intel presence, as well as HP, IBM, Oracle, Nvidia, Sharp, and others, so it is not a tech backwater.
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Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

MMiroir that is an incredible data compilation - thank you!
MMiroir wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:10 amAmong the CS choices, Santa Clara is the clear winner with a robust number of students, great tech location and an average starting salary $30,000 higher than the nearest competitor.
That Santa Clara median income is pretty eye popping. It’s significantly higher than any UC except UC Berkeley and UCLA.

I’m also grateful to those posters who pointed out that Santa Clara’s CSE curriculum may not be that different from other CS majors. I’m not sure how in-depth my son’s review of this was, but this merits a closer look.

I think we’ll have to visit the school on their admitted student day and I hope my son gives them thoughtful consideration.
Last edited by Tirebiter on Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stan1
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by stan1 »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:48 pm
roamingzebra wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:43 pm UCSB used to be known as "the party school".

I wondered if it still was.

Yep. It's the no. 1 party school in California. :D

Top 25 Best Party Schools in California (2023)
That article lists pretty much every college in California.
UCSB, Chico, and SDSU are the Top 3 which has been the case for at least the last 40 years.
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Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

MMiroir wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:10 am Loyola Marymount did not report any sufficient data to report median income information. However, the school of engineering is tiny, and they only graduated 40 CS majors in 2020 which is the last year reported. With this small number of graduates, your not going to get strong industry recruiting or participation.
FWIW my son reached out to LMU’s career center and was told that the median reported income of LMU’s 2022 CS graduating class was $110k. Not at Santa Clara’s level, but not bad at all. That is a tiny data set though.

I wonder how many graduates need to report income in order for median income to be shown on College Scorecard (an amazing site btw).
Last edited by Tirebiter on Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shiftleft
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by shiftleft »

Tirebiter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:21 pm
MMiroir wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:10 am Loyola Marymount did not report any sufficient data to report median income information. However, the school of engineering is tiny, and they only graduated 40 CS majors in 2020 which is the last year reported. With this small number of graduates, your not going to get strong industry recruiting or participation.
FWIW my son reached out to LMU’s career center and was told that the median reported income of LMU’s 2022 CS graduating class was $110k. Not at Santa Clara’s level, but not bad at all. That is a tiny data set though.
I don't want to derail the thread, but last years CS graduates were at the peak of the current CS bubble. With all the recent layoffs in big tech, I've heard it's been incredibly hard for this year's grads to find jobs. It's good to have that data point for LMU though. Personally, I feel a lot of CS success is being self-driven, learning new things, and being able to figure out things on your own. It's a constantly evolving field.

I also took a more detailed look at SCU's curriculum and only thought that the 2 EE classes may be more hardware than he make want, but it's only 2. Of the other closer-to-the-hardware CSE classes (Embedded Systems, Logic Design, Computer Architecture), the later 2 were standard in my undergrad CS program. Only embedded systems is new, and I expect that is because of the boom in embedded devices over the last 20 years. So I feel it's really only 2 EE classes that may not be as fun if you don't like hardware.

Also, if you're interested in CS pay. You should look at levels.fyi. Look up how much mid-career engineers at FANG make.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

No disrespect for SCU, but I think anyone with an actual CS background would seriously question (to put it generously) any metric that rated SCU higher than all UC's other than UCB and UCLA for CS.
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Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:53 pm No disrespect for SCU, but I think anyone with an actual CS background would seriously question (to put it generously) any metric that rated SCU higher than all UC's other than UCB and UCLA for CS.
Why is that? I am not asking rhetorically, I am not familiar with this field and trying to learn.

EDIT: In my industry, income is pretty much the ultimate metric (although it’s not for me personally). It’s probably worth noting that my son intends to work immediately after graduation as opposed to pursuing post-graduate studies.
Last edited by Tirebiter on Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2pedals
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by 2pedals »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:57 pm We did tour Oregon State. I was hoping he'd like it as I've heard good things about the school, but he was not comfortable with the small college town setting and remote location.
Several years ago my daughter had the same reservations prior to attending Oregon State University Engineering but she did attend despite the concern. When you think about it's kind of silly to be concerned about that. When you are attending a challenging degree program in college it's best not to have too many distractions. She ended up loving Oregon State and the college town environment along with getting a great education. Tech company recruiters, especially the west coast companies are active at OSU.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by quantAndHold »

Tirebiter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:04 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:53 pm No disrespect for SCU, but I think anyone with an actual CS background would seriously question (to put it generously) any metric that rated SCU higher than all UC's other than UCB and UCLA for CS.
Why is that? I am not asking rhetorically, I am not familiar with this field and trying to learn.

EDIT: In my industry, income is pretty much the ultimate metric (although it’s not for me personally). It’s probably worth noting that my son intends to work immediately after graduation as opposed to pursuing post-graduate studies.
One of the things I like about the UC’s is that they all have very complete, well thought out undergrad curriculums. I’ve found UC grads, from any campus, to have a really sound CS fundamentals and be well prepared to go to work upon graduation. SCU is so small that I’ve never actually worked with a SCU grad, so I have no idea how well prepared they are.

The thing about starting salaries, at least that list of starting salaries, is that it’s almost completely a function of where the school is located and what starting salaries for CS grads are in the area near the school. Graduating from, say, SDSU doesn’t preclude someone from getting a job in San Jose and making Silicon Valley money. It’s just that most people who go to SDSU are from San Diego, and stay in San Diego after graduation.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

Tirebiter wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:04 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:53 pm No disrespect for SCU, but I think anyone with an actual CS background would seriously question (to put it generously) any metric that rated SCU higher than all UC's other than UCB and UCLA for CS.
Why is that? I am not asking rhetorically, I am not familiar with this field and trying to learn.
How well a candidate does in a technical interview, and what the candidate successfully delivered in the past as documented on a resume, along with the communication skills to discuss all of that are what matters most in the tech field.

People with graduate degrees in CS may consider things like: how many of the upper division CS courses are taught by regular faculty who are actively publishing research in the CS subarea of the course?

The salary question you are expressing interest in is: would your son get a higher starting salary at company X if he got a CS degree from university Y vs university Z? The data that needs to be available and analyzed to answer that question is probably not the data being publicized by the schools. That data is useful, but if it ranks SCU above all but two of the UC's, I think that is more indicative of one or more biases in the dataset than it is predictive of outcomes.

Again, no disrespect intended to SCU. The decision to go to a school like SCU vs a large state school also should depend on the student. A given student may be more likely to thrive in one or the other environment, and that is a very important factor.

I'll add that if your son may be interested in artificial intelligence, then I think Oregon State CS dusts all the other options on your list, but that is not its only strength.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

quantandHold wrote: The thing about starting salaries, at least that list of starting salaries, is that it’s almost completely a function of where the school is located and what starting salaries for CS grads are in the area near the school.
Another factor concerns the percentage of top grads from a program who would get the best job offers but instead choose to go directly to grad school, and thus do not contribute to the average starting salary data from that undergrad program (or even their TA salary is included in the average). There are many possible biases in the data.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by jlucas1b »

Here is a thought. Your son could apply to a liberal arts college that has a 3/2 program with a top CS program. I know that Caltech and Columbia accept lots of 3/2 students.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by 8301 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm I am a failure because I did not early retire at 49 years old ...
If this is your criterion of success or failure, don't feel bad. You have a lot of company out there. Hit a library and search the biography section.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by viveks »

Going through similar process for my daughter who has stats on the similar lines and unfortunately little disappointed with in state UC waitlists and declines. School wise UCs would be have been preferred choices but unless you are direct admit to CS/CSE/DS it has become extremely hard to sign up for lower level CS classes and you can't sign up for higher level classes without prerequisites. Here is what would be my preference:

Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k - really in the heart of SV, easy to get internships and later jobs.
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k - Very decent CS program, location may not be ideal.
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k - Another decent CS program, location is awesome.

In my opinion major would be more important. I wouldn't worry too much about ranking of schools.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by HornedToad »

If he wants to work in high tech then Santa Clara has a clear advantage. That degree is also a CS degree effectively

Otherwise Washington or Loyola.

Odds are your first job is where you intern and there is a plus in having lots of companies near the school and who recruit from it regularly
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.
Those aren't the only two choices.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by 8301 »

HornedToad wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:05 pm If he wants to work in high tech then Santa Clara has a clear advantage. That degree is also a CS degree effectively

Otherwise Washington or Loyola.

Odds are your first job is where you intern and there is a plus in having lots of companies near the school and who recruit from it regularly
Are we still in the days of "Little house on the prairie"?
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

It maybe is worth noting that the California tiered model where U of Calif is a tier 1 school and <Name> State University is tier 2 generally does not apply to other states.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:12 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.
Those aren't the only two choices.
But, it is better than believing there are only one way.

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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

8301 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:28 pm
HornedToad wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:05 pm If he wants to work in high tech then Santa Clara has a clear advantage. That degree is also a CS degree effectively

Otherwise Washington or Loyola.

Odds are your first job is where you intern and there is a plus in having lots of companies near the school and who recruit from it regularly
Are we still in the days of "Little house on the prairie"?
People hire people. That has not changed. In many cases, they hire from people that they known.

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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by dan7800 »

I have a BS and PhD in Computer Science. My BS in CS did not prepare me for the real world very well since most CS degrees are theoretical. Many schools now have degrees in Software Engineering. Why not consider those?

If I had a child going into a computing-based career, I would

1) Have them find a school with a cybercorp or similar scholarship program that will pay most of their college degree.
2) Have them work for a group such as the AFRL, NSA. After they leave here, they will be worth $$$ and big name companies will likely be knocking down their door to have them work for them.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

dan7800 wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:29 am I have a BS and PhD in Computer Science. My BS in CS did not prepare me for the real world very well since most CS degrees are theoretical. Many schools now have degrees in Software Engineering. Why not consider those?
dan7800,

I disagreed.

A degree in software engineering will not prepare someone for a real job in software engineering either. Won't a real working experience in software engineering be a lot better? Then, what is the point of getting an undergraduate degree in the first place?

IMHO, an undergraduate degree should provide a good foundation for someone to go further in their career. Hence, getting an degree in area X because the it prepared for the first job is not a good enough reason. It needs to do a lot more.

OP's son has some working experience. OP's son should think about what degree will let OP's son go further in life. IMHO, skipping hardware will be a big mistake. It is not something someone can learn easily on the job versus the software stuff.

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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:09 amIMHO, skipping hardware will be a big mistake. It is not something someone can learn easily on the job versus the software stuff.
A CS degree worth its salt will teach computing from the ground up.

Our older designed and built a RISC processor from scratch (from the logic gates level) in his first semester.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

jlucas1b wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:03 pm Here is a thought. Your son could apply to a liberal arts college that has a 3/2 program with a top CS program. I know that Caltech and Columbia accept lots of 3/2 students.
Never heard Caltech (or Columbia) referred to as a LAC before.

Also, not exactly safety schools, those two... "Caltech accepts lots of students" said no one ever.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:31 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:09 amIMHO, skipping hardware will be a big mistake. It is not something someone can learn easily on the job versus the software stuff.
A CS degree worth its salt will teach computing from the ground up.

Our older designed and built a RISC processor from scratch (from the logic gates level) in his first semester.
It should be obvious to you that MIT do not teach CS degree like others. If not, please bear that in mind with your post. And, state that in your post too.

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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:40 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:12 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.
Those aren't the only two choices.
But, it is better than believing there are only one way.
...such as insisting on studying EE instead of CS?
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:45 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:40 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:12 pm
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:47 pm A) A great undergraduate degree from brand name school.

B) A normal undergraduate degree with a few years of relevant experience.

The choice is yours.
Those aren't the only two choices.
But, it is better than believing there are only one way.
...such as insisting on studying EE instead of CS?
... someone can learn CS outside of the a formal undergraduate degree.

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Last edited by KlangFool on Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:47 am .. such as MIT or you are a failure...
I must have missed this part of the thread.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by moneyman11 »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
Why not straight Computer Science from UCSB?
I know they offer it, I have a degree in it from the school hanging on my wall. 😀
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:49 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:47 am .. such as MIT or you are a failure...
I must have missed this part of the thread.
Where in your post has indicated that someone can be successful without going to the top ranked university? You had offered only one choice.

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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

8301 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:12 pm There are pluses and minuses with working while studying at college unless worked at top notch employers such as research labs which helped your career.
Full-time summer internships is the standard way for CS students to gain industry experience, and there are some that pay pretty handsomely.

https://www.levels.fyi/internships/

Those same top companies don't typically offer off-summer part-time student jobs, but many students do work part-time as research and teaching/lab assistants during the semester. 10hr/wk is typical.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Vulcan »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:52 am
Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:49 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:47 am .. such as MIT or you are a failure...
I must have missed this part of the thread.
Where in your post has indicated that someone can be successful without going to the top ranked university? You had offered only one choice.
I have? Where?

ETA: I see that you edited your response, so I consider your comment withdrawn.
Last edited by Vulcan on Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by warner25 »

KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:45 am
Vulcan wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:31 am
KlangFool wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 8:09 amIMHO, skipping hardware will be a big mistake. It is not something someone can learn easily on the job versus the software stuff.
A CS degree worth its salt will teach computing from the ground up.

Our older designed and built a RISC processor from scratch (from the logic gates level) in his first semester.
It should be obvious to you that MIT do not teach CS degree like others. If not, please bear that in mind with your post. And, state that in your post too.

KlangFool
I have a BA (not even a BS) and MS in CS from places that definitely weren't MIT, and both had early required courses in hardware architecture and computer systems that involved learning to design and implement (in simulation and on a field-programmable gate array) essentially "a RISC processor from scratch (from the logic gates level)." Like AND, OR, NOT gates to an ALU, controller, memory, and clock, to a complete CPU with a four-stage pipeline (fetch, decode, execute, write) and interrupt handling.
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