College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

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Tirebiter
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College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

Fellow Bogleheads, I seek your thoughts and opinions on a college decision for my son. He, my wife and I have put a lot of thought and research into the college application process thus far, and much of our thought process has been guided by the wisdom of posters on this board. Still, since my son is choosing to pursue a career in a field I am not familiar with, I would welcome any thoughts on factors we may be missing.

My son is a senior in high school and deciding between colleges. He aims to study computer science (CS) with the professional goal of being a software engineer after college. He would ideally like to end up working in Southern California, although a major city on the West Coast would be ok.

He is a high stats kid (3.9 unweighted GPA, 4.5 weighted GPA, mid-1500s SAT) who is familiar with several programming languages (Swift, Java, Javascript). He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive), but has no big extracurricular awards or leadership positions, which perhaps led to him being passed over by CS programs at the more selective CA schools. He’s very much a “people person,” makes friends easily and interviews well, which will probably be a strength someday, but unfortunately not in the college app process. Nonetheless, he’s pretty insistent on continuing with the CS path and so isn’t that excited about some of his non-CS options at more recognized schools.

The following are the colleges and majors he has been accepted to (listed in descending order of preference), along with costs after accounting for merit aid. Each one has different pros and cons which I have attempted to summarize below as well. Keep in mind that if you don’t see a school here that you think is great for CS, it’s because it’s not an option at this point.

Our family budget for college expenses is $40k per year, but we’re willing to co-sign loans for the amount above that.

School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
UC Santa Cruz, Information Management, 33k
University of Washington, Informatics, 53k

He liked LMU’s campus, location, and professor accessibility (he’s met with three professors there already). I’m a bit concerned that they aren’t exactly known for CS. Seattle U seemed to have a similar vibe, with slightly more CS faculty and a smaller, less beautiful “open” campus in the middle of Seattle (reminds me of Northeastern). Santa Clara definitely seems more “serious” about CS but he was accepted as a Computer Science and Engineering major and since applying has decided he’s not that interested in the hardware aspect of Computer Engineering. Fordham offered a wonderfully generous scholarship but is known even less for CS than LMU and unlike LMU, student reviews of the program he saw online were not flattering. Similar for San Diego State. Oregon State does seem to have a good CS department but he disliked the remote location. I thought the Stats/Data Science option at UC Santa Barbara might be interesting to him. I’m probably biased because it’s the highest ranked school he got into. But he looked at the curriculum and wasn’t happy with the limited opportunity to take CS-related courses. UC Santa Cruz has become infamous lately for terrible housing shortage issues that could easily push its annual cost above $40k – he would have been willing to accept that risk for CS but not for Information Management. He loved the University of Washington campus more than any other campus we visited, but $53k seems a bit steep to study Informatics at a public school when he could study CS for lower prices than that.

I welcome any thoughts or clarifications on the factors considered above, or factors that have not yet been considered.
psteinx
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by psteinx »

I'm not very familiar with West Coast schools.

You don't list your location, but IMO, that's fairly important. Closer school better than further, for all kinds of reasons.

The last 3 on the list have majors of "Pre-Stats/Data Science, Information Management, Informatics" It's not clear to me how much programming content is included in any of these 3 programs, but I'm skeptical of them, based on the labels (even though they may be somewhat better rated Us, overall than those higher on the list). I would be very cautious about assumptions that he can change directions once in college, as many Us are reluctant to allow folks IN to highly desired majors (most things CS and adjacent).

CS + Engineering at Santa Clara *might* just be fairly standard CS with, perhaps, a few hardware classes thrown in. The latter aren't bad to be exposed to, even if DS is mainly thinking software. That said, it's substantially more expensive than some of the others above it, so...

I know next to nothing about LM, Seattle, San Diego State, Fordham, but I'd lean into those 4, particularly whichever are closest. Have your DS attend an admitted student day/weekend or two, perhaps?
slicendice
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by slicendice »

Don't go to schools that won't let you major in what you want. That looks like it rules out UCSB, UCSC, UW,

Does Santa Clara offer a pure CS degree? Usually private schools are more flexible with switching majors. How much hardware is in the CS and engineering degree? It is certainly a reputable school.

Have you toured SD state? I would be leery about basing my decision on online reviews. It seems like a great opportunity/value. The issue with impacted majors at the CalStates seems to be getting classes to graduate in a reasonable amount of time. That sometimes be partially be mitigated by taking sections in undesirable time slots (8AM classes), and/or taking classes taught by unpopular professors.

I think despite its remote location Oregon State offers a good value, big university lots of students, heavily science/engineering oriented but not a hypercompetitve academic atmosphere will be able to get the classes he wants needs and can explore academically. It is a great college town and not that remote ~40 min from an airport in Eugene, 90 min from PDX, have you been there?

I can't really comment on the others. How large is the CS department at Loyola Marymount, Fordham, Seattle U, how many tenure-track faculty, how many CS students? It should give you some sense of the importance of CS to the school.
lgb
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by lgb »

I wouldn't obsess over this decision so much. If he has visited some places and liked some vs. others, wasn't the whole point of visiting to determine just that?

Seems like he has done that. Time to let go, he sounds like he has his head on straight, most kids are undecided when they enter college, or if they are 'decided' they change their major to something else. In fact, when I got my Computer Science degree, they told everyone, that it is very likely the person next to you won't be in Engineering or Computer Science, and instead will be in Business. They were right. Yours could be the same because you've identified that he is a people person, I'll be flamed, but my experience is that a good majority in Computer Science and Engineering aren't usually people persons. Not always true. There are usually a couple in the class that are people persons 'and' brains, but many are brains only and they don't want anything to do with others and will gladly make that known. This is despite the facts that they will likely be working in small to large groups (doesn't mean they'll work well)...but your son has this to his advantage and like you already pointed out it has led him to get internships and interviewing well. It is also the same reason they say many end up going into business. :happy

Once he's out and gets some experience under his belt, this talk about what school he went to is literally of very little importance. It will be like those people you meet that are in their 40's and are still somehow talking about their College days. As an employer myself, the education area of the resume tends to be small and the experience sections are larger and relevant, if it is flipped the other way, I know they don't have much experience. Which maybe the employer is looking for so they can mold them into what they want, but I'd rather be paying for someone that can make an impact based on their experience.

Sounds like he successfully found a place (the first you listed) and you're just on the final cycle of the decision making process, which is where you're questioning whether that decision is good or not. It likely is, as it was 'his' first choice.

I'd also say, if he does do Computer Science and is a people person, his opportunities are much more versatile. The ones that aren't as personable usually have to really be the brains to overcome the shortcoming of not being as personable. At least that is what I've always noticed over the years.


my .02 cents. :sharebeer
skibummer
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by skibummer »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm Fellow Bogleheads, I seek your thoughts and opinions on a college decision for my son. He, my wife and I have put a lot of thought and research into the college application process thus far, and much of our thought process has been guided by the wisdom of posters on this board. Still, since my son is choosing to pursue a career in a field I am not familiar with, I would welcome any thoughts on factors we may be missing.

My son is a senior in high school and deciding between colleges. He aims to study computer science (CS) with the professional goal of being a software engineer after college. He would ideally like to end up working in Southern California, although a major city on the West Coast would be ok.

He is a high stats kid (3.9 unweighted GPA, 4.5 weighted GPA, mid-1500s SAT) who is familiar with several programming languages (Swift, Java, Javascript). He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive), but has no big extracurricular awards or leadership positions, which perhaps led to him being passed over by CS programs at the more selective CA schools. He’s very much a “people person,” makes friends easily and interviews well, which will probably be a strength someday, but unfortunately not in the college app process. Nonetheless, he’s pretty insistent on continuing with the CS path and so isn’t that excited about some of his non-CS options at more recognized schools.

The following are the colleges and majors he has been accepted to (listed in descending order of preference), along with costs after accounting for merit aid. Each one has different pros and cons which I have attempted to summarize below as well. Keep in mind that if you don’t see a school here that you think is great for CS, it’s because it’s not an option at this point.

Our family budget for college expenses is $40k per year, but we’re willing to co-sign loans for the amount above that.

School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
UC Santa Cruz, Information Management, 33k
University of Washington, Informatics, 53k

He liked LMU’s campus, location, and professor accessibility (he’s met with three professors there already). I’m a bit concerned that they aren’t exactly known for CS. Seattle U seemed to have a similar vibe, with slightly more CS faculty and a smaller, less beautiful “open” campus in the middle of Seattle (reminds me of Northeastern). Santa Clara definitely seems more “serious” about CS but he was accepted as a Computer Science and Engineering major and since applying has decided he’s not that interested in the hardware aspect of Computer Engineering. Fordham offered a wonderfully generous scholarship but is known even less for CS than LMU and unlike LMU, student reviews of the program he saw online were not flattering. Similar for San Diego State. Oregon State does seem to have a good CS department but he disliked the remote location. I thought the Stats/Data Science option at UC Santa Barbara might be interesting to him. I’m probably biased because it’s the highest ranked school he got into. But he looked at the curriculum and wasn’t happy with the limited opportunity to take CS-related courses. UC Santa Cruz has become infamous lately for terrible housing shortage issues that could easily push its annual cost above $40k – he would have been willing to accept that risk for CS but not for Information Management. He loved the University of Washington campus more than any other campus we visited, but $53k seems a bit steep to study Informatics at a public school when he could study CS for lower prices than that.

I welcome any thoughts or clarifications on the factors considered above, or factors that have not yet been considered.
It sounds like we are in a very similar boat with a CS (computer science) bound son with very similar stats. I posted similar questions to the Bogleheads forum about a week ago and received a very helpful 4+ page thread with lots of great advice. Our schools are not the same due to geographic differences but lots of great information was provided. Best of luck and congratulations to your son and your family. The thread link is listed below:

viewtopic.php?t=400818
phositadc
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Post by phositadc »

delete
Last edited by phositadc on Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
creon
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by creon »

Location is important. It might be easier to get internships in larger cities than in some of the more isolated campuses. It's also just easier to go to conferences, visit other places, have a wider variety of housing options etc. Plus for some places like UCSC and UCSB you'll definitely be paying a lot in terms of housing.

The small/large distinction I think here is something to consider more as well. What are the class sizes like? Will your son be willing to wait in lines at TA office hours and find other resources as needed, or does he need more of a personal touch and talk with the prof directly after class? Large campuses often have more resources in general, but you have to work to find/make use of them. Is that something your son is happy to do?

Alumni might be a good thing to look into as well. Where exactly do recent alumni tend to end up? Do they keep track? Some Linkedin perusing and talking to recent graduates might be useful as well to see more of the "other side," especially of the finalists. Again, larger schools might have more alumni to draw on, but they also might not be as tight-knit as smaller schools (though that varies a lot by school as well).

I would be less concerned in terms of a school being "known" (especially since there isn't really a clear standout here from what I can tell) and more "does the program seem to understand how to prepare their graduates to succeed and offer applicable opportunities along the way?" If LMU seems to have that, then that seems like a solid choice on all the factors.
Big Dog
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Big Dog »

"You don't list your location, but IMO, that's fairly important. Closer school better than further, for all kinds of reasons."

I would submit that going away to college is better for all kinds of reasons. That said, not sure I'd go to NYC for a job in tech. (And the budget for NY should be expanded for travel and eating out.)

For CS, any would be great. Jesuit education is fantastic. SCU would be my first choice of the privates, but not at that price. (have you inquired of SCU whether there is any flexibility in their financial aid?)

SDSU is the best value, so the question is whether LMU is worth $14k more to your family, and that is only something you can answer.
Last edited by Big Dog on Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KlangFool
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
My son is a senior in high school and deciding between colleges. He aims to study computer science (CS) with the professional goal of being a software engineer after college. He would ideally like to end up working in Southern California, although a major city on the West Coast would be ok.
Tirebiter,

1) Please ask him to explain why he thinks that CS is right for him.

2) Has he really talk to actual software engineer and learn what their actual daily work routines?

KlangFool
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stan1
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by stan1 »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
Our family budget for college expenses is $40k per year, but we’re willing to co-sign loans for the amount above that.

School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
UC Santa Cruz, Information Management, 33k
University of Washington, Informatics, 53k

He liked LMU’s campus, location, and professor accessibility (he’s met with three professors there already). I’m a bit concerned that they aren’t exactly known for CS. Seattle U seemed to have a similar vibe, with slightly more CS faculty and a smaller, less beautiful “open” campus in the middle of Seattle (reminds me of Northeastern). Santa Clara definitely seems more “serious” about CS but he was accepted as a Computer Science and Engineering major and since applying has decided he’s not that interested in the hardware aspect of Computer Engineering. Fordham offered a wonderfully generous scholarship but is known even less for CS than LMU and unlike LMU, student reviews of the program he saw online were not flattering. Similar for San Diego State. Oregon State does seem to have a good CS department but he disliked the remote location. I thought the Stats/Data Science option at UC Santa Barbara might be interesting to him. I’m probably biased because it’s the highest ranked school he got into. But he looked at the curriculum and wasn’t happy with the limited opportunity to take CS-related courses. UC Santa Cruz has become infamous lately for terrible housing shortage issues that could easily push its annual cost above $40k – he would have been willing to accept that risk for CS but not for Information Management. He loved the University of Washington campus more than any other campus we visited, but $53k seems a bit steep to study Informatics at a public school when he could study CS for lower prices than that.

I welcome any thoughts or clarifications on the factors considered above, or factors that have not yet been considered.
BS in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science here. Out of this list, I'd go with the Top 6 with the CS degree with Top 3 being somewhat better choices than the next 3. I am not familiar with the Santa Clara curriculum, but I would not exclude it because it adds Engineering. In all honesty a CS degree from an affiliated Engineering school is great. For internships LMU is close to the tech centers in Venice/Santa Monica/West LA. Santa Clara of course is in the heart of Silicon Valley.

One consideration is whether he does better in a smaller more intimate environment or if he will hold his own at a large institution such as SDSU where he will need to create and take advantage of opportunities himself.

Did he not apply to CS programs at UW and UCs? Or did he get advice to apply for listed programs based on "easier to get into" than CS? Given his acceptance letters from the other schools he may have not have received good advice. Personally I would skip the majors that are not computer science.

As for the $40K cost limit, we have all ranges of personal finance and family situations on the forum. I'd consider whether $40K/year is a soft limit or a hard limit. Given what you present his best choices are roughly in the order listed. For example, personally I would happily work one year longer for my child to go to Santa Clara instead of SDSU without debt. If you are going to leave him a $1M+ inheritance give some of that to him now. YMMV.
Last edited by stan1 on Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
slicendice
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by slicendice »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm [snip]
He is a high stats kid (3.9 unweighted GPA, 4.5 weighted GPA, mid-1500s SAT) who is familiar with several programming languages (Swift, Java, Javascript).
[snip]
Is that a mid-1500s SAT on the 1600 scale? (hadn't it switched to 2400 at some point?)

I have no advice, but just wanted to chime in and say wow, sounds like a really smart kid and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to get into top colleges (which I guess even includes state flagships now) these days!

11-12 years until I have a kid applying to colleges but these recent threads on it has already turned it into something I'm not looking forward to!
It is really nuts now. Kids with the OP son's stats 30 years ago stood an excellent chance of going wherever they wanted to major in whatever they wanted--Not anymore.
KlangFool
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm

School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
UC Santa Cruz, Information Management, 33k
University of Washington, Informatics, 53k

Tirebiter,

A) I will strike the bottom 3 from the list because of the majors.

B) I do not see enough difference to pay more from one versus another from the universities on the list.

C) If your son's goal is to work in Southern California, it might be better to study in the university at the same geographical area.

KlangFool
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aboose
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by aboose »

May not be helpful, but if he can attend U Washington and transfer to the CS program, that would be by far and away the best education of the list.
KlangFool
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by KlangFool »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive),
Tirebiter,

Can he continue his internship while going to the university?

I worked in the University Computing Center while earning my BSEE and MSEE. I graduated with 5 years of working experience. I never have to compete with the fresh graduate with no working experience. No one look at my degree at all when I graduated.

KlangFool
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anonenigma
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by anonenigma »

Unless I missed it, you don't mention the state in which you reside. That matters for public universities, which offer far lower in-state tuition to their states' residents. If you're a Californian, edge to UCs.
shiftleft
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by shiftleft »

BS & MS in Comp Sci from a top UC. Software Engineer for 20 years.
Just thought I'd chime in on few things:

Seattle is close to major tech companies: Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Google.
Seattle U is quarter system. I feel you can cover a greater breadth of topics in quarter. Both my undergrad and grad school where quarter system.
Seattle weather is blah...Will he be able to put up with it? I know I wouldn't.
Loyola is semester system. I did not see mandatory software engineering classes in the curriculum.
I never heard any great things about Santa Clara U, other than being in the heart of Silicon Valley (similar to SJSU). Never heard anything bad either. Housing will be expensive.
San Diego state has a party school reputation?

Software Engineering is actually a career that requires a lot of communication and people interaction, so being a people person is a good thing. My team, filled with very senior engineers, are constantly in meetings, talking to people, and writing docs. Very little code. The stereotype of a software engineers as super geeky people, who don't talk anyone, and are just code monkeys, is wrong. And as you move up, you generally code less, and are more expected to design and architect things, and drive them as well.
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Watty
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Watty »

There are lots of threads about selecting computer science programs that you can look up with lots of comments by people that know more about specific programs than I know. (I have an ancient CS degree.)

That said with an undergraduate STEM degree once you get below the top 10 or maybe 20 ranked colleges it is really hard to justify paying a high price for a STEM degree since the programs are so similar and likely accredited by the same groups.

Within the middle 80% of undergraduate CS program rankings things like cost or the personality "fit" are probably the most important factors to consider.

I didn't cross check them so I might have missed one but the only one on your list that jumped out at me as being a top 10 or 20 CS college would be the University of Washington at Seattle for a CS degree. I am not familiar with their Informatics program but I would suspect that it is a lot less desirable.
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm Nonetheless, he’s pretty insistent on continuing with the CS path and so isn’t that excited about some of his non-CS options at more recognized schools.
I would give a lot of weight to this since he has lots of CS options. The other degrees really are a lot different. I would be especially cautious about the Pre-Stats/Data Science programs since that might require a lot of higher level math which may or may not be his main interest or strength. My son has a CS degree and even the higher level math classes required for that were a challenge for him.
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm ....or factors that have not yet been considered.
One advantage of the less expensive colleges is that the additional money could be used for a graduate degree.

Another thing is that when I was helping my son select a college one thing I did was to look up the graduation and retention rates of some the universities which can be surprisingly low for some of them.

I did a quick Google and UC Santa Cruz had less than a 75% graduation rate which would concern me but that would be for the entire student body. With some digging and maybe some phone calls you should be able to find out the graduation rate for the specific programs that he would be in.

You might be able to put some colleges at the bottom of the list just because they have a lower graduation rate.
Last edited by Watty on Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MMiroir
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by MMiroir »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
If he wants to go CS, I would not look at the other schools that did not accept him for CS particularly if they are state colleges with capped CS enrollment. You can see what median early career salaries are at www.collegescorecard.com.

Santa Clara is at $131,051 which will easily be the best placement for CS majors among the remaining schools.
phositadc
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Post by phositadc »

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Last edited by phositadc on Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Topic Author
Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

I really appreciate all the terrific feedback - you folks are the best.

I don't have the answers to all of your questions but each of your questions has given me something to think about. I'll try to answer each of them when I have time.
slicendice wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:50 pmDoes Santa Clara offer a pure CS degree?
Their Computer Science and Engineering degree is offered within their school of engineering. Santa Clara also offers what looks like a Math/CS degree within their school of Letters and Sciences. This degree requires, obviously, more math, and strangely, a foreign language requirement, which my son does not like. I'm also not sure how easy it is to transfer into this major - Santa Clara's CS majors and business majors appear to be impacted.
slicendice wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:50 pm Have you toured SD state? I would be leery about basing my decision on online reviews. It seems like a great opportunity/value. The issue with impacted majors at the CalStates seems to be getting classes to graduate in a reasonable amount of time. That sometimes be partially be mitigated by taking sections in undesirable time slots (8AM classes), and/or taking classes taught by unpopular professors.

I think despite its remote location Oregon State offers a good value, big university lots of students, heavily science/engineering oriented but not a hypercompetitve academic atmosphere will be able to get the classes he wants needs and can explore academically. It is a great college town and not that remote ~40 min from an airport in Eugene, 90 min from PDX, have you been there?
We vistited SD State during Covid but have not done an official tour. I think you raise a good point and we probably should.

We did tour Oregon State. I was hoping he'd like it as I've heard good things about the school, but he was not comfortable with the small college town setting and remote location.
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Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

psteinx wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:36 pm You don't list your location, but IMO, that's fairly important. Closer school better than further, for all kinds of reasons.
Home location is Southern California.
Topic Author
Tirebiter
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm Is that a mid-1500s SAT on the 1600 scale? (hadn't it switched to 2400 at some point?)
Yes that is correct. It switched to 2400 at some point but has now switched back. Unfortunately for my son, CA public schools are test blind and won't look at SAT scores.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by cchrissyy »

i can't really pick among your list, don't know enough about most of those schools reputations and what your kid wants from the school environment.

suggest crossing off the places that admitted for the "wrong" major

i have a sophomore CS major at a different CSU. it's been a very good experience so far, and moving away was very good for his growth. the only hesitation recommending this is we wonder would he get a better upper division experience and job search if instead of CSU he had done city college and transfer to UC.

(as a senior he did not apply for any UCs or privates. his admitted options were various CSUs)
Last edited by cchrissyy on Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:12 pm 1) Please ask him to explain why he thinks that CS is right for him.
He's enjoyed coding since he was pretty young. I think he would say that he likes the ability to create applications that are useful or entertaining. He's also pretty well aware of the income potential and likes the idea of having a portable skill set that isn't tied to one particular industry or geographic region.
KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:12 pm 2) Has he really talk to actual software engineer and learn what their actual daily work routines?
I'm too out of my element to know if this consitutes an "actual software engineer" but he has worked for a small (but profitable) app company and has befriended the founder/owner/primary app developer, who seems to have really good income/work/life balance. He's also worked with a non-profit where he created databases and website interfaces for them, and interacted with programmer-types who did that for a living. You raise a good point that he should probably engage more with people who work for larger companies.
Last edited by Tirebiter on Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

stan1 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:15 pmDid he not apply to CS programs at UW and UCs?
He did. He was not accepted to his 1st choice major (CS) and was accepted to his 2nd choice instead.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

aboose wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:17 pm May not be helpful, but if he can attend U Washington and transfer to the CS program, that would be by far and away the best education of the list.
Unfortunately this is not an option at UW or the UCs. CS is a highly impacted major at these schools and the chance of being able to transfer into it from another major are extremely slim.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Watty »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:55 pm Really not sure why Seattle weather has the reputation that it has.
A couple of things;

1) The lack of sunlight in the winter can cause a very real seasonal depression in some people.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20364651

2) Being farther north the shortest day of the year is much shorter than cities that are farther south. On the shortest day of the year there is only 8:25 minutes between sunrise and sundown and because of the overcast there is often no twilight. In comparison on the shortest day of the year in San Diego there is 10 hours and likely some twilight. When I lived in Portland Oregon there were several weeks in the winter when I would drive to and from work in the dark.

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/sea ... &year=2023

3) The first reports of the Pacific Northwest were by the Lewis and Clark expedition and they spent the winter on the Oregon Coast, which has worse weather than inland, in an unusually bad El Nino year so they had miserable weather. If they had spent that winter 75 miles inland where Portland is now in an average or better winter their reports would have been much better. As the saying goes, “You Never Get a Second Chance to Make a First Impression.”
Last edited by Watty on Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by quantAndHold »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:55 pm
shiftleft wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:07 pm [snip]
Seattle weather is blah...Will he be able to put up with it? I know I wouldn't.
[snip]
This is a bit of a myth.



Apologies for derailing the thread. Just saying for the OP, IMO Seattle weather would actually be a positive of UW -- not a negative.
Southern Californians, like OP’s kid, tend to suffer a lot in Seattle. I know I did, and most of the Southern Cal transplants I knew ended up going back south before very long. Summers were amazing, it was the other 10 months that were the problem.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by MarkRoulo »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm Fellow Bogleheads, I seek your thoughts and opinions on a college decision for my son. He, my wife and I have put a lot of thought and research into the college application process thus far, and much of our thought process has been guided by the wisdom of posters on this board. Still, since my son is choosing to pursue a career in a field I am not familiar with, I would welcome any thoughts on factors we may be missing.

My son is a senior in high school and deciding between colleges. He aims to study computer science (CS) with the professional goal of being a software engineer after college. He would ideally like to end up working in Southern California, although a major city on the West Coast would be ok.
...
School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
Loyola Marymount University, Computer Science, 42k
Seattle University, Computer Science, 38k
Santa Clara University, CS+Engineering, 57k
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Oregon State University, Computer Science, 34k
UC Santa Barbara, Pre-Stats/Data Science, 32k
UC Santa Cruz, Information Management, 33k
University of Washington, Informatics, 53k
...
How do UCSB, UCSC and UW work if your son wants to study computer science?

The UCSB "Pre-Stats/Data Science" major is basically a statistics degree with (probably) some machine-learning/data science tacked on because the folks in the department are paying attention to recent developments.

In general, neither "Information Management" nor "Informatics" are computer science.

If he really wants to major in CS then these are off the table, right?
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by aboose »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:06 pm
phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm Is that a mid-1500s SAT on the 1600 scale? (hadn't it switched to 2400 at some point?)
Yes that is correct. It switched to 2400 at some point but has now switched back. Unfortunately for my son, CA public schools are test blind and won't look at SAT scores.
Wow, that is shocking that UCs do not look at SAT anymore. I'm a bit puzzled on what they use to make admissions fair then, seeing as how GPA of 3.9 at one school can mean a very different thing than a GPA at another school...
Last edited by aboose on Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Pdxnative »

There’s nothing wrong with those other majors if that’s what he wants. But it sounds like he wants CS so I’d stick with those as his options are fine.

OSU is a good deal, yes. But Corvallis is what it is. If he doesn’t like it I don’t think it’s worth spending four years there.

I think if LMU feels good to him it’d be fine for CS. If he’s already getting internships he’ll probably be able to build on those and that’s going to determine a lot more of his career options than the specific school (given that the options are all above the threshold of decent programs).
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by quantAndHold »

A shame he didn’t get accepted to UW or any of the UC’s for CS, since those would be the obvious choice. Of the ones he got accepted to for CS, I think they’re all fine second tier schools, and he can have a good software development career from any of them. If it were my kid, I would probably gently nudge him towards SCU, but really, if he continues down the path he’s already on with good grades and internships, he’ll be fine at any of these schools.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by MarkRoulo »

cchrissyy wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:13 pm ...
the only hesitation recommending this is we wonder would he get a better upper division experience and job search if instead of CSU he had done city college and transfer to UC.

(as a senior he did not apply for any UCs or privates. his admitted options were various CSUs)
Transferring from CC to UC in engineering or computer science is tough. The transfer route is clear (and my son did this successfully -- edit: not in engineering or CS), but works best for the non-impacted majors. The risk you would have run would be 2 years at the CC and then not being able to transfer with the major he wanted. That's a real risk for the high demand majors.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by slicendice »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:57 pm]
Their Computer Science and Engineering degree is offered within their school of engineering. Santa Clara also offers what looks like a Math/CS degree within their school of Letters and Sciences. This degree requires, obviously, more math, and strangely, a foreign language requirement, which my son does not like. I'm also not sure how easy it is to transfer into this major - Santa Clara's CS majors and business majors appear to be impacted.
I understand your son's concern about the foreign language requirement. In my day I would have taken an extra year of math/engineering classes to avoid a foreign language requirement :happy . As was mentioned above by someone that works in the field, having some hardware background is not likely to be a terrible thing even if you don't like it. It is actually a good thing to have broad training as an undergrad.

It's a tough call though, for the price differential between there and SDstate you could almost completely fund a 2 year MS degree from a UC or go out of state for. The point brought up about upper division courses in the undergrad major is important. I would definitely check that out at all of the places you are considering... what is in the catalog? how accessible are they? are they offered consistently? Something else to consider: Do these programs all offer a 5th year MS option?
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by jabberwockOG »

aboose wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:17 pm May not be helpful, but if he can attend U Washington and transfer to the CS program, that would be by far and away the best education of the list.
Agree. UofW also have very strong EE and CS PHD programs.

All these second tier schools will work just fine for a persistent dedicated student - but I'd be careful to take a look at graduation percentages, curriculum flexibility, and availability of classes, - and also critical if possible to visit and talk to existing CS students or recent graduates. The CS major can be very frustrating if you cannot get adequate access to professors, and/or if classes are over crowded, and/or consistently very difficult to sign up for.

Local environment and school size can make a difference. For me personally I was super comfortable and did extremely well at a smaller non urban setting school. Having said that one of our kids did a CS/EE degree at a school in a huge city with 45k+ students and loved it. Different strokes.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by TheGiantess »

My nephew received a CS degree from a state school in the midwest about 6 years ago and works for a corporation making six figures and loves it. I don't think you have to pay a, lot if your son is smart. I think many times people think they have to pay a lot to a fancy school for their kids to get a good job.Not alway true.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

MarkRoulo wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:35 pm How do UCSB, UCSC and UW work if your son wants to study computer science?

The UCSB "Pre-Stats/Data Science" major is basically a statistics degree with (probably) some machine-learning/data science tacked on because the folks in the department are paying attention to recent developments.

In general, neither "Information Management" nor "Informatics" are computer science.

If he really wants to major in CS then these are off the table, right?
My son has written them off, but I think I was subconsciously hoping to hear that one or more of these majors was "sort of like CS" or at least that studying these majors could be a pathway to software engineering. From what I gather so far in this thread, it doesn't sound like it. Good to know.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by FlamePoint »

phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:55 pm
shiftleft wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:07 pm [snip]
Seattle weather is blah...Will he be able to put up with it? I know I wouldn't.
[snip]
This is a bit of a myth.

November-February a bit gloomy and rainy, and it gets dark at like 4:30pm, but even during this "worst" part of the year, there are several hours almost every day of no rain, and there are enough sunny days that for most people it's really not too bad.

March-May are pretty good.

June-September are absolutely fantastic. Historically a week or two of wildfire smoke per year, which isn't bad if you're prepared for it and have some home air filters ready.

October pretty good.

So net there are 4 kind of bad months, which many people actually end up finding to be fine.

Really not sure why Seattle weather has the reputation that it has. Almost everybody I've talked to who is a recent transplant, after their first winter or two, says "what? this is what everybody was complaining about? This isn't that bad." And most of the people who've been here longer view the weather as the best kept secret in America because somebody everybody outside of Seattle thinks it is terrible. I guess if you are coming from San Diego or some place like that, you might find Seattle weather to be bad. But if you are from San Diego, the weather anywhere else will probably be "bad" for you.

Apologies for derailing the thread. Just saying for the OP, IMO Seattle weather would actually be a positive of UW -- not a negative.
Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Lived in Seattle for over 30 years due our jobs and couldn’t get out of there fast enough when we retired. Moved south for more year round sunshine. The long dark, grey, drizzly winter months should not be underestimated. Spring is also typically rainy and mostly cold. Summer is a short 2 months, but you may get lucky with a September Indian summer. I get that some folks love that type of weather. We did not fall into this group.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by index245 »

aboose wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:36 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:06 pm
phositadc wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:07 pm Is that a mid-1500s SAT on the 1600 scale? (hadn't it switched to 2400 at some point?)
Yes that is correct. It switched to 2400 at some point but has now switched back. Unfortunately for my son, CA public schools are test blind and won't look at SAT scores.
Wow, that is shocking that UCs do not look at SAT anymore. I'm a bit puzzled on what they use to make admissions fair then, seeing as how GPA of 3.9 at one school can mean a very different thing than a GPA at another school...
Agree, makes admissions much more of a crapshoot. That said, UC schools are very familiar with all the CA state high schools.

All of the admissions data is posted publicly, some of it goes way back. You can google UC Admissions by source school.

The admissions rate in the UC system on the whole is high only if you consider Merced and Riverside.

The others are extremely impacted now. UC Berkeley and UCLA are somewhere around 10% now, with engineering majors being some of the most competitive. UC Irvine and UCSB somewhere around 20%. It is crazy. Without SATs, it is really difficult for a student to differentiate themselves.

I think there are still good options on OP's list. I'd go with Santa Clara or San Diego State.
Last edited by index245 on Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by tyrion »

Tough draw for your son. My son is very similar - mid 1500s SAT and 4.0 unweighted GPA but limited honors classes (he took all that were offered) so weighted GPA is around 4.3. Too bad they don't consider SAT.

Rejected at all of the reach schools. MIT, Cal Tech, etc. We encouraged him to try even though it was always a huge longshot.

Then waitlisted at a few UCs (UCSC, UCLA) but thankfully did get into UCSD in CS. No luck at Cal Poly SLO. A few other 'safe' schools turned out to not be so safe.

Of your list I would think Santa Clara would be the best if he's willing to deal with the hardware aspect. Otherwise Oregon State and SDSU are ranked similarly and on the lower end of your cost range. Of course they have very different locations.

I've heard from a lot of other people about how competitive the UC and CSU admissions are now that SAT isn't considered and there is abundant financial aid (which is good).

Anyway, best of luck to your son. I think reaching out to profs and current students is a good approach.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by sfmurph »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Fordham, for the cost of San Diego State? Wow, this looks like a great choice. I realize that it's not in California, but your child will be able to come home an intern in the summers. I think getting away for school can be a big part of learning, and this sounds like a very big package for Fordham.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:26 pmCan he continue his internship while going to the university?

I worked in the University Computing Center while earning my BSEE and MSEE. I graduated with 5 years of working experience. I never have to compete with the fresh graduate with no working experience. No one look at my degree at all when I graduated.
These were summer internships, but he has maintained good relationships with these employers. One of them suggested that my son work for them full time instead of going to college, which was cool, but I don't think the type of work he was doing would be conducive to a part time arrangement. I think my son was hoping to focus on school throughout the academic year and hopefully land internships at larger companies during the summers. But the approach you took sounds pretty clever and I will suggest he explore it.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by jh4986 »

Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:25 pm
aboose wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:17 pm May not be helpful, but if he can attend U Washington and transfer to the CS program, that would be by far and away the best education of the list.
Unfortunately this is not an option at UW or the UCs. CS is a highly impacted major at these schools and the chance of being able to transfer into it from another major are extremely slim.
I know my data point may not help you. My son chose math major from a UC school, knowing their CS program is impacted. He spent the first year taking as many CS classes as he could with good enough grades, then applied transfer to CS and got accepted. This was 6 years ago, so times may be different now.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Tirebiter »

jh4986 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:51 pmI know my data point may not help you. My son chose math major from a UC school, knowing their CS program is impacted. He spent the first year taking as many CS classes as he could with good enough grades, then applied transfer to CS and got accepted. This was 6 years ago, so times may be different now.
Every data point helps, so thank you! But we are unlikely to take that gamble - $32k per year for 4-5 years is a lot of money for a product we might not want.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by 8301 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:26 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm
He’s landed several internships at smaller companies (which I thought was impressive),
Tirebiter,

Can he continue his internship while going to the university?

I worked in the University Computing Center while earning my BSEE and MSEE. I graduated with 5 years of working experience. I never have to compete with the fresh graduate with no working experience. No one look at my degree at all when I graduated.

KlangFool
There are pluses and minuses with working while studying at college unless worked at top notch employers such as research labs which helped your career. How has your career progressed in the long term if word "long" is applicable?
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by index245 »

sfmurph wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:36 pm
Tirebiter wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:13 pm School, Major, Cost per year (tuition + room + board):
San Diego State, Computer Science, 28k
Fordham, Computer Science, 27k
Fordham, for the cost of San Diego State? Wow, this looks like a great choice. I realize that it's not in California, but your child will be able to come home an intern in the summers. I think getting away for school can be a big part of learning, and this sounds like a very big package for Fordham.
I think it depends where you want to work. I live in LA. I'm not familiar with Fordham, but there are plenty of San Diego State grads.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by Northern Flicker »

If the student wants to major in CS, and majoring in CS at UCSB or UCSC or U of Washington are not options, then Oregon State is the best option. They participate in a very good and well established internship program called MECOP.

Has your son been to Corvallis? It's a beautiful campus and college town atmosphere.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by roamingzebra »

UCSB used to be known as "the party school".

I wondered if it still was.

Yep. It's the no. 1 party school in California. :D

Top 25 Best Party Schools in California (2023)
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by quantAndHold »

roamingzebra wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:43 pm UCSB used to be known as "the party school".

I wondered if it still was.

Yep. It's the no. 1 party school in California. :D

Top 25 Best Party Schools in California (2023)
That article lists pretty much every college in California.
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Re: College decisions - Computer Science, non-elite, West Coast

Post by MarkRoulo »

roamingzebra wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:43 pm UCSB used to be known as "the party school".

I wondered if it still was.

Yep. It's the no. 1 party school in California. :D

Top 25 Best Party Schools in California (2023)
Very few other schools have their campus on a beach. Not just near — on :-)
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