Which car to buy

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augustwest73
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Which car to buy

Post by augustwest73 »

Hi,

The hybrid vs EV vs ICE discussion was very informative. We are looking to purchase two hybrid cars now and are thinking if we stay with the same dealer we may be able to negotiate a better deal but maybe not. We're not against mixing brands. Our primary driver is functionality and reliability. We just use cars to get from point A to point B as functionally and reliably as possible. Anyhow, we are looking at the following vehicles in the 2023 models. Can you please weigh in with your experience or recommendations. We know there is a shortage right now of new cars and the dealers do have some on the lots.

We're looking at the:

RAV4 and Corolla
CRV and Honda Civic
Hyundai Tucson and Elantra

Thank you in advance for all your wisdom!
stan1
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by stan1 »

In general, I don't think this is a case where you will get a better deal by bundling for the types of cars you are looking at and it could make it much harder to find what you are looking for. For hybrid versions of below vehicles in my market you would still be pretty close to looking at MSRP. If you want better deals look at ICE.
detroitbabu
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by detroitbabu »

I don't think there is a 2023 Civic hybrid version. 2024 model is expected to have a hybrid variant.
delamer
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by delamer »

I’m interested in why you are purchasing 2 hybrids versus 1 hybrid and 1 fully-electric. Or 1 ICE and 1 fully-electric.

If you don’t mind sharing. :)
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
sport
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by sport »

I have been buying new Toyotas since 1981. Each one has been great and each one has been better than the one before. The only cars I now consider buying are Toyotas.
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windaar
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by windaar »

There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
Nobody knows nothing.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

We're at a point where the entire auto market is in a blender being thrown upside down every day. Mazda and Toyota have said that they want to focus on high cost vehicles and abandon mass market, low cost cars. Ford's CEO is at war with their dealers who are at war back at him. GM seems to be back on their feet with a lot of various drive vehicles in volume and incentives have hit all their vehicles. Stellantis is way back and have an overabundance of vehicles but have already upped their prices noticeably. They're going back on their heels, though and upping incentives and adding more vehicles to their incentives. I did a quick run through the local dealer and incentives of $1500 to $2500 are on various vehicles. I did see a $4500 incentive previously on the Ram pickup of some kind.

Where will you get your best deal? This is completely dealer dependent. If you see a Honda dealer chock full of cars, logically, they have plenty to deal with. Mine locally won't and still demands over MSRP. They have over 400 cars on the lot. Hardly space for customers. You may need to bounce around to various dealers because another Honda dealer might be no nonsense, no haggle $1500 under MSRP pricing. Until you find the dealers who aren't stuck in the ADMU world, it doesn't matter what vehicle you want.
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cmr79
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by cmr79 »

windaar wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 pm There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
I fit your description of an EV adopter in basically every way. I agree we don't know what the resale values of today's EVs will look like in ten years, but I'm not sure why one would predict this to be a negative for EVs vs ICE. 10yo used Tesla Model S vehicles are selling with original batteries for around 40-50% of their original sale price, and while battery technology will likely improve greatly in the next decade, it's easy to forget how far it has come since a decade ago. And the charging infrastructure, probably the biggest issue to EV adoption currently, will almost certainly be much, much better (particularly for non-Tesla owners) in ten years.
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tennisplyr
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by tennisplyr »

This site might be helpful.

www.carcomplaints.com
“Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.” -Retired 13 years 😀
stoptothink
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by stoptothink »

cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:40 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 pm There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
I fit your description of an EV adopter in basically every way. I agree we don't know what the resale values of today's EVs will look like in ten years, but I'm not sure why one would predict this to be a negative for EVs vs ICE. 10yo used Tesla Model S vehicles are selling with original batteries for around 40-50% of their original sale price, and while battery technology will likely improve greatly in the next decade, it's easy to forget how far it has come since a decade ago. And the charging infrastructure, probably the biggest issue to EV adoption currently, will almost certainly be much, much better (particularly for non-Tesla owners) in ten years.
Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
cmr79
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by cmr79 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:05 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:40 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 pm There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
I fit your description of an EV adopter in basically every way. I agree we don't know what the resale values of today's EVs will look like in ten years, but I'm not sure why one would predict this to be a negative for EVs vs ICE. 10yo used Tesla Model S vehicles are selling with original batteries for around 40-50% of their original sale price, and while battery technology will likely improve greatly in the next decade, it's easy to forget how far it has come since a decade ago. And the charging infrastructure, probably the biggest issue to EV adoption currently, will almost certainly be much, much better (particularly for non-Tesla owners) in ten years.
Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
I wasn't recommending OP purchase an EV. I was just making a point that there is no reason to expect that resale values will be proportionately worse for an EV (or hybrid for that matter) in ten years vs an ICE due to the battery technology. Perhaps other issues with infotainment system software not being supported will indeed pop up, but that isn't an ICE vs hybrid vs EV issue.

I agree that if OP does not have the ability to charge at home, a non-plug in traditional hybrid is likely the option I would go for (and hard to beat Toyota's track record with their hybrid powertrains of the options given, if you can wait to get your hands on one).
cyclist
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by cyclist »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:05 am Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
Yes, home charging is a big deal for EV owners - but a garage is not.

We don’t have a garage, and we charge at home. Sure, I’d love a garage, but the dedicated Tesla Wall Connector on the exterior of our house near our driveway works just fine. There are several other similar setups in our neighborhood as well.

Cyclist
stoptothink
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by stoptothink »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:19 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:05 am
cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:40 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 pm There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
I fit your description of an EV adopter in basically every way. I agree we don't know what the resale values of today's EVs will look like in ten years, but I'm not sure why one would predict this to be a negative for EVs vs ICE. 10yo used Tesla Model S vehicles are selling with original batteries for around 40-50% of their original sale price, and while battery technology will likely improve greatly in the next decade, it's easy to forget how far it has come since a decade ago. And the charging infrastructure, probably the biggest issue to EV adoption currently, will almost certainly be much, much better (particularly for non-Tesla owners) in ten years.
Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
I wasn't recommending OP purchase an EV. I was just making a point that there is no reason to expect that resale values will be proportionately worse for an EV (or hybrid for that matter) in ten years vs an ICE due to the battery technology. Perhaps other issues with infotainment system software not being supported will indeed pop up, but that isn't an ICE vs hybrid vs EV issue.

I agree that if OP does not have the ability to charge at home, a non-plug in traditional hybrid is likely the option I would go for (and hard to beat Toyota's track record with their hybrid powertrains of the options given, if you can wait to get your hands on one).
I think I quoted the wrong post. I apologize. Another poster asked why they were not looking for 1 hybrid and 1 EV; seems pretty straightforward if they do not have the the ability to charge at home.
stoptothink
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by stoptothink »

cyclist wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:05 am Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
Yes, home charging is a big deal for EV owners - but a garage is not.

We don’t have a garage, and we charge at home. Sure, I’d love a garage, but the dedicated Tesla Wall Connector on the exterior of our house near our driveway works just fine. There are several other similar setups in our neighborhood as well.

Cyclist
Of course. Should have just said "ability to charge at home". I think it is pretty safe to assume that someone without a garage is less likely to be able to charge at home than someone who does, although certainly it is possible for some people living in homes without garages.
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Watty
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by Watty »

When car shopping one of the things I look at are which cars got a Top Safety Pick rating preferably with the "+" designation.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks

It would take a compelling reason for me to buy a car that did not make that list. One possible exception would be that a new model might not have been tested yet which is why it is not on the list so if you are looking into a model like the Prius that is not on the list yet that might be why.

It would also be good to get car insurance quotes before you decide since they can vary by more than you might expect. A couple of years ago I replaced a 2018 Corolla with a 2021 Forester which was worth about twice as much. Much to my surprise my insurance went down by about 20% instead of going up because it was a more expensive car. My insurance agent said that it was because the Forester had a better safety and claims history in their internal rating system.

Before you make any decisions it would be good to take each of the cars for a test drive since how the seats and controls work for you can vary a lot and that is not something you can figure out by reading reviews. I have had rental cars that worked fine that I hated just because the seats were uncomfortable to me. The trim level may also make a big difference in how a car feels.

If you are not paying cash then be sure to get your financing set up ahead of time. Even if you have plenty of good credit getting two car loans at once could trigger something in the computer systems which might cause your loan to be declined. Lenders not only look at the amounts of the loans but also the frequency and patterns.
Ervin
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by Ervin »

augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:54 am Hi,

The hybrid vs EV vs ICE discussion was very informative. We are looking to purchase two hybrid cars now and are thinking if we stay with the same dealer we may be able to negotiate a better deal but maybe not. We're not against mixing brands. Our primary driver is functionality and reliability. We just use cars to get from point A to point B as functionally and reliably as possible. Anyhow, we are looking at the following vehicles in the 2023 models. Can you please weigh in with your experience or recommendations. We know there is a shortage right now of new cars and the dealers do have some on the lots.

We're looking at the:

RAV4 and Corolla
CRV and Honda Civic
Hyundai Tucson and Elantra

Thank you in advance for all your wisdom!
As the owner of an ICE Camry and hybrid Avalon, both 8+ years old, my opinion is that the right way to buy a car is based on your particular use case and total cost of ownership, including insurance and property taxes.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't care about hybrid versions for anything that goes more than 30 mpg on average. For the untrained eye, going from 30 mpg to 50 mpg seems like such a big deal, but it's not. Even for 15000 miles per year, that's just 200 gallons of gas per year, which is about $500 now. If the hybrid car is more expensive by $5K, that's a lot of years one's paying for upfront.

I don't care about resale values. One should keep a car for at least 10-15 years, where the resale value shouldn't matter. I actually dislike high value cars, because market value translates into higher property taxes, which do add up much more than the resale value.

Like Terry Smith says about investing: Buy good companies (cars in your case). Don't overpay. Do nothing (i.e. keep them for a long time).
RIP, Mr. Bogle.
cmr79
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by cmr79 »

Ervin wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:04 am
augustwest73 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:54 am Hi,

The hybrid vs EV vs ICE discussion was very informative. We are looking to purchase two hybrid cars now and are thinking if we stay with the same dealer we may be able to negotiate a better deal but maybe not. We're not against mixing brands. Our primary driver is functionality and reliability. We just use cars to get from point A to point B as functionally and reliably as possible. Anyhow, we are looking at the following vehicles in the 2023 models. Can you please weigh in with your experience or recommendations. We know there is a shortage right now of new cars and the dealers do have some on the lots.

We're looking at the:

RAV4 and Corolla
CRV and Honda Civic
Hyundai Tucson and Elantra

Thank you in advance for all your wisdom!
As the owner of an ICE Camry and hybrid Avalon, both 8+ years old, my opinion is that the right way to buy a car is based on your particular use case and total cost of ownership, including insurance and property taxes.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't care about hybrid versions for anything that goes more than 30 mpg on average. For the untrained eye, going from 30 mpg to 50 mpg seems like such a big deal, but it's not. Even for 15000 miles per year, that's just 200 gallons of gas per year, which is about $500 now. If the hybrid car is more expensive by $5K, that's a lot of years one's paying for upfront.

I don't care about resale values. One should keep a car for at least 10-15 years, where the resale value shouldn't matter. I actually dislike high value cars, because market value translates into higher property taxes, which do add up much more than the resale value.

Like Terry Smith says about investing: Buy good companies (cars in your case). Don't overpay. Do nothing (i.e. keep them for a long time).
Using the Camry vs Camry Hybrid as an example, though, the hybrid is around $2k more for similar trim levels and gets about 50% better gas mileage combined, mid-30s vs low 50s. US average for gas is currently $3.50/gallon. 15k miles in the Camry would cost $1500 in gas vs $990 for the hybrid on a per year basis, so the payback period for sticker price vs gas savings is under 4 years. Less if the resale values are considered given that the Hybrid has higher resale value. And if you keep cars a long time and don't care about residual/resale value...you will likely save a lot more on gas with the hybrid.

Obviously gas costs and city/highway driving mix vary, and whether you can get the same trims at the same discount/markup is a crapshoot these days...
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enad
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by enad »

What has worked well for us in the past is to obtain the Costco price by visiting the specific dealer in your area. You can take a deeper look into the vehicle, sit in it, test drive, etc ... then kindly thank them once you know the price. Then via cars.com you can put in the specifics for the vehicle you are looking at, color, engine, extra's, etc ... and the price you wish to pay. For me it's been anywhere from $500 to $2500 less than the Costco price and send the request. Within an hour I've gotten no less than 3 requests from dealers in the area. This works best towards the end of the month when sale people are trying to make quota. We'll be doing this again in about a year for a new Hybrid as well.
What Goes Up Must come down -- David Clayton-Thomas (1968), BST
tibbitts
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by tibbitts »

cyclist wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:37 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:05 am Sounds like OP doesn't have a garage. Even EV evangelists say an EV probably isn't for you yet if you can't charge at home.
Yes, home charging is a big deal for EV owners - but a garage is not.

We don’t have a garage, and we charge at home. Sure, I’d love a garage, but the dedicated Tesla Wall Connector on the exterior of our house near our driveway works just fine. There are several other similar setups in our neighborhood as well.

Cyclist
This reminds of when I'd throw an extension cord out the window from my 3rd floor apartment when I needed to vacuum my car. And I'd throw a water hose out, connected to the kitchen sink, when I needed to wash it.
mervinj7
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Re: Which car to buy

Post by mervinj7 »

windaar wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 pm There are way too many unanswered questions about EVs right now, despite the media and gov't churn. The few people I know who own one are interested in gadgets "the new thing" etc., and have garages, short commutes, and more than 1 car. What are road trips like in an EV? Not good, according to my friends and published accounts in the WSJ. What will EV resale values be in 10 years vs. ICE? No one knows or is willing to predict, though I know that my 10 year old phone is worth $0, "no longer supported." I'm suspecting old EVs will also end up "no longer supported."
You are in luck! The Tesla Model S is just over ten years old and there's already a bit of data on it's resale after ten years.
https://www.capitalone.com/cars/learn/f ... value/1184
We analyzed the current values for 2012 models of those luxury competitors and the Model S with nearly 140,000 miles on the odometer, then compared them against the original purchase prices for base models. Today, a Model S that was originally $57,400 is still worth 38 percent of that price, or $21,900. The competitor that comes closest to matching that, the 2012 Lexus LS, holds just 21 percent of its value with similar mileage. A BMW 740iL that was originally priced at $71,000 is now worth $7,725—just 11 percent of the MSRP.

There are still gas cars that retain value better than Teslas—a 2012 Toyota Camry with about 140,000 miles is worth 47 percent of its original price—but it's clear that Tesla cars are not your typical luxury vehicles, particularly when it comes to Model S depreciation.
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