Athletics pathway to college

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Johny Fever
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Johny Fever »

Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
Best post of all!! It gets crazy and the kids feel the pressure too. We had one daugher that did gymnsatics and it wasnt too bad compared to todays costs...other kids all did school sports and had fun and that was great..team work and being part of a team was great. Football worked out well for the boys as well.
mw1739
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by mw1739 »

stoptothink wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:29 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
Ditto. I spent 2yrs working at a world famous athletic training facility that trains professional athletes in pretty much every sport (focusing primarily on NFL and NBA combines), and we would get parents calling every day asking about training their 6-10yr olds with cost not even being a concern. I never ceased to be amazed how much some of the sports cost, and how willing parents are to pau. One of our combat sports friends has a 12yr old daughter who swims competitively, says her swimming easily costs them ~$1k/month and from what I know she isn't really competitive at a state level. We probably spend ~$3500/yr total between both of our kids for wrestling, BJJ, and muay thai (gym fees, gear, tournaments) and we kind of think that is outrageous, but it's our family thing.
Third upvote for this. We're at roughly $20k per year for high level youth hockey which seems crazy to think about. Even our coach made this comment a few weeks ago that we'd all be better off socking the money away for college.
bloom2708
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by bloom2708 »

You will know if your kid is winning the conference and/or regional and getting to/winning matches at state.

The top kids will be recruited by D1 schools. The next level will go to D2 and D3 schools but probably won't get much for scholarships. But, sometimes just playing in college is the goal.

It takes a certain dedication and actual results, but getting a full or partial scholarship is certainly a possibility for kids who perform and win in high school.

If the kid is a middle of the packer in high school and 5th best on the high school team, you are probably getting your signs.

Engineering school is no joke. Our middle kid is in chemical engineering. Her class load is crazy. It makes my math/business class load look easy.

Tell him to do his best. Work HARD in the offseason and see what happens. Kids that do nothing in the offseason in their key sport probably aren't cut out for college athletics.
Benbo
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Benbo »

Better for your kid to hit the books and enjoy tennis as a hobby.

College Tennis Odds 2022: Male Female
Number of US High School Tennis Players 2021-22 150,323 181,578
Number of College Tennis Players 9,408 10,314
% of US HS Tennis Players competing at any College Level 4.0% 3.5%
% of US HS Tennis Players Competing at NCAA I Schools 0.6% 0.5%
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by TomatoTomahto »

mw1739 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:29 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
Ditto. I spent 2yrs working at a world famous athletic training facility that trains professional athletes in pretty much every sport (focusing primarily on NFL and NBA combines), and we would get parents calling every day asking about training their 6-10yr olds with cost not even being a concern. I never ceased to be amazed how much some of the sports cost, and how willing parents are to pau. One of our combat sports friends has a 12yr old daughter who swims competitively, says her swimming easily costs them ~$1k/month and from what I know she isn't really competitive at a state level. We probably spend ~$3500/yr total between both of our kids for wrestling, BJJ, and muay thai (gym fees, gear, tournaments) and we kind of think that is outrageous, but it's our family thing.
Third upvote for this. We're at roughly $20k per year for high level youth hockey which seems crazy to think about. Even our coach made this comment a few weeks ago that we'd all be better off socking the money away for college.
Our kids played hockey also, and we spent freely. We never had any thought that it would lead to college acceptances.

However, one of our kids wrote a very thoughtful essay about his coming to grips with the fact that he couldn't take the hard hits in more senior levels of hockey and how he would have to be satisfied with playing the game he loves at a club level. The essay was remarked upon by the Acceptance Committee head.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
stoptothink
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:31 pm
mw1739 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pm
stoptothink wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:29 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
Ditto. I spent 2yrs working at a world famous athletic training facility that trains professional athletes in pretty much every sport (focusing primarily on NFL and NBA combines), and we would get parents calling every day asking about training their 6-10yr olds with cost not even being a concern. I never ceased to be amazed how much some of the sports cost, and how willing parents are to pau. One of our combat sports friends has a 12yr old daughter who swims competitively, says her swimming easily costs them ~$1k/month and from what I know she isn't really competitive at a state level. We probably spend ~$3500/yr total between both of our kids for wrestling, BJJ, and muay thai (gym fees, gear, tournaments) and we kind of think that is outrageous, but it's our family thing.
Third upvote for this. We're at roughly $20k per year for high level youth hockey which seems crazy to think about. Even our coach made this comment a few weeks ago that we'd all be better off socking the money away for college.
Our kids played hockey also, and we spent freely. We never had any thought that it would lead to college acceptances.

However, one of our kids wrote a very thoughtful essay about his coming to grips with the fact that he couldn't take the hard hits in more senior levels of hockey and how he would have to be satisfied with playing the game he loves at a club level. The essay was remarked upon by the Acceptance Committee head.
Not that I am on any admission's boards, but you have to think young adults who have developed a high level of skill at any sport (regardless of it is a collegiate sport or not) is a pretty big plus. If they continue, my kids should probably be brown belts in BJJ before they enter college. For anybody who has any knowledge of the sport, they know that someone <18yrs old having attained that level of skill is intensely dedicated, disciplined, and hard working because it is very very rare.
TSR
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by TSR »

I played D3 lacrosse for a little while. I spoke to the coach when visiting the school (I had some credentials that I could demonstrate, but he never saw me play), and I believe he put in a good word for my application. This sort of informal nudge is likely helpful but not "push you over the top" helpful.

There are also smaller, less competitive D1 schools that play in some of the lesser known conferences (think the Patriot League or the Colonial Athletic Association) where they are still very much Division-1 NCAA schools that grant scholarships, but they are not necessarily sports powerhouses. They still have competitive programs, but they are not as all-encompassing as some other programs (they certainly have students who are very serious about their studies). Worth a look.

Whether any of this will interest your kid four years from now is another question, or whether your kid develops the appropriate talent for either approach. I bet he's having a great experience with this regardless, and it's worth seeing where it'll go. Tennis is a pretty useful skill in adulthood even if he's not a college-level player.
Bogle Millennial
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Bogle Millennial »

I played baseball and had offers for D2 and D3 schools where I was going to go to study engineering. I ended up choosing a better academic scholarship school that was a D3 private school that didn't offer any athletic scholarship opportunities. As this was primarily an engineering school, almost all the athletes there were engineering students. I played one year of baseball and pushed back against the athletics team telling me I needed to go on a 5 year path for graduation versus 4 year if I wanted to continue playing. Problem was that my academic scholarships ended in 4 years so there was no benefit to doing a 5 year plan for a non-scholarship athletic opportunity. Athletics and engineering is a tough load for a student, so I would definitely give higher weighting to academics as that may likely be what carries and benefits them the most.
allones
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by allones »

I played D1 golf for my in-state university. I didn't take up golf until my freshman year of high school, but by the time I was a junior, I was one of the top 3 in the state and #1 my senior year. I participated in many national summer tournaments outside of school which helped prepare me for some tougher competition and also raised my visibility. College coaches definitely track the regional, and probably national, talent.

I was recruited after my dad reached out to the university golf coach and expressed interest on my behalf. My academics were decent but I don't think I would have received an academic scholarship. I still had to apply and all of that. My hunch is since my tuition was in-state, my scholarship was an easier sell. The landscape now seems much more competitive with the young golfers I see intentionally seeking out what they want.

During the golf seasons (we competed in both the spring and the fall for 6-8 weeks) my schedule was 3-4 hours of practice every day after school, traveling to a tournament over the weekend, one day of a practice round, 1-2 days of competition (sometimes 36 holes in a day :x ), and then a flight home. I was essentially in class 3, maaaaybe 4 days a week. I started as a music major and left with a sociology degree. My teammates were mostly business majors. It's an incredibly grueling schedule. I did so much studying in airports and on airplanes. Thankfully, I got along well with my teammates because they were also my entire social life.

Professors are supposed to be accommodating to student-athletes, but sometimes they make it difficult. I got my only C ever (in choir!) because I failed to let the director know for my first three weeks of college that my absence was excused due to sports.

By my senior year, golf felt like a slog of a job. After college, I essentially didn't play for 20 years and just picked it up again a few years ago. Enough time passed that I can almost have fun and not feel the pressure (I put on myself) to perform well.
YeahBuddy
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by YeahBuddy »

Have you thought about paying for a tennis program or extra lessons for your child? Our 7th grader loves baseball and just finished little league. The options are now to either join "Babe Ruth" aka city ball, where the teams here combine several ages, practice very little, and just play games (2 years before high school starts). Instead, we decided to sign him up for this program run by former big league / minor league players. They advertise the fact that many of their players get signed to college for baseball and then some get signed to minor league MLB contracts.
If there's something similar for tennis in your area that may be a good avenue.
Light weight baby!
MP173
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by MP173 »

There are also NAIA schools (non NCAA) which are very competitive athletically and offer partial if not full athletic scholarships.

This thread brings back memories of my son's experiences with basketball. I wont bore everyone with the details, but the important thing is to find (if one wants to be an athlete) a schools where one can balance academics, athletics, and social life/culture. It worked very good for him, but it took a couple of schools to figure it out. Looking back he has great respect for his college coach who provided much needed guidance at the time.

The great thing about college athletics, as stated above, is the degree of time management skill required. A skill which is very valuable for life beyond college.

Enjoy the tennis at this age - time goes very quickly.

Ed
Arabesque
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Arabesque »

Johny Fever wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:24 am
Arabesque wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:06 pm In my experience, as a professor, athletes tend to major in communication or psychology, and not engineering. Engineering is an incredibly time-consuming and intense major. Many, many people have said it should be a five year degree. There’s not time for athletics in an engineering curriculum. There really isn’t time in many majors for a Division I athlete. I once had exceedingly smart, softball pitcher, who couldn’t get out of B land. We discussed what she would have to do to move the needle, but there was just no way.
I think your comment must be based on the school you teach at? My three athlete kids were premed, Business ( finance CPA) and Math. All did just fine as did many of their teammates...I think a lot of this has to do with the school. D1 schools can and do produce degrees but you are correct that for many they are going to be there 5 years anyway as they usually redshirt a lot of players. Worked fine for my sone, he left after 5 years with his business degree and 80% of his masters paid for. Math kid graduated in 4 years and two national championship rings...premed kid took four years then med school. I really think its a school by school thing and parents should ask for those grad stats as well before the team record...
For almost 40 years, I was a professor. I thought taught at three major research universities, each with a med school, and in a highly ranked technical University. There are aKeats outliers, and some universities may make it possible for students to graduate in hard majors, often over five years rather than four. In my experience, however most student athletes are not used well.

There was a time when I thought that the universities spent an awful lot of their resources on student athletes. I really was more concerned about other populations at the University, like first generation to college students and honors students. Then there was the horrible “accident” where a freshman student, a hockey player, played briefly, his first game, and was left a quadriplegic. https://www.bu.edu/articles/2020/travis-roy-obituary/

Since then, I am more aware of the use and abuse of student athletes.
coachd50
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

randomguy wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:43 am
coachd50 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:57 am
The Stone Wall wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:54 am Fortunately, tennis is one of the six 'full-ride scholarship' sports. All of the other sports are 'partial scholarships', which means the program pieces together athletic money with other resources. Athletic programs do a pretty good job of listing the rosters of their teams. You should pull up a few rosters and take a look at the biographical sketches of some of the players. In most cases, it will show you how those athletes performed prior to entering college. Is your athlete on that track?
Tennis is an equivalency sport- not a head count sport
For men it is an equivalency sport (pretty much everything but BB and football). For woman it is a headcount sport.
Yes, and the OPs child is male.
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enad
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by enad »

vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:25 pm
thedaybeforetoday wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:48 am
enad wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:44 am
vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:25 pm My 8th grader is very interested in tennis. He takes part in local competitions and wants more and more of playing and competing. He is reasonably good in academics and grades. We parents (and he too) most certainly want him to go to a good college after high school.
How can we parents support his tennis passion along with his studies at high school and going on to college? Can a tennis pathway help to get admission in an impacted major like Engineering?
Do high school tennis players get "recruited" by college coaches to be on their team, thus getting admitted to the college?
Any experiences from parents and pointers to info will be much appreciated!

thank you.
One of our distant relatives was both very smart and athletic and played sports in high school (football, basketball, golf & tennis), and managed to get a football scholarship from Harvard. He knew that he would never make it to the pro's and used the scholarship as a means to get into Harvard. So yes, I would say that athletics can be a pathway to college. Is there a coach at his high school that you can talk to about his tennis abilities?
There are no athletic scholarships in the Ivy league.
You are right. I reached out to the family who provided additional information. Their son was very athletic in high school and a star athlete (made the local newspaper), and he graduated in the top 10 in his class. According to his mom, Harvard recruited her son to play football. He sill had to apply for admissions and once he received a letter from the school, the school paid for his education through some endowment as they did not have the means to pay for tuition, so the schools endowment kicked in and covered his costs. She explained that it was easier to tell the rest of the family that it was a football scholarship, which I can understand because she felt ashamed to admit that they couldn't afford their son's education.

To the OP, here's an article that is a good read. Men's Tennis - How to get recruited | NCAsports.org

It's very competitive so good luck and keep the grades up
What Goes Up Must come down -- David Clayton-Thomas (1968), BST
ILnative
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by ILnative »

My brother played D3 basketball and was a science major - and it was brutal. My only recommendation on this is to pick a sport that is completely in one semester - so you can load that semester with your "easy" classes and then take your harder classes in your semester where you aren't actively playing the sport. Basketball is a killer that way - straddles two semesters in a big way.
mdavis6890
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by mdavis6890 »

Here's how I would think about it:

Basically the questions is: Should we *change* our approach to his tennis playing now, in a way that is less enjoyable, with the expectation that doing so will help with college later? Because if you're not changing anything (or are making enjoyable changes), then it doesn't matter - just do what you're doing, enjoy it, and maybe get a college benefit later.

But would I change (emphasize, increase) my child's approach to sports in less enjoyable ways now, for a possible college benefit later? No, I would not do that. This is a bit like the tax-tail-wagging-the-investment-dog thing.

So do as much tennis, in whatever way, your son enjoys NOW! College will sort itself out later.
netbroker
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by netbroker »

Yes, you can study Engineering and play tennis. It can be done, but the schedule for a tennis/Eng. combo is extremely demanding. Support from your college is important (some schools won't allow you to pursue difficult majors and play sports). Absolutely perfect time management skills are required. But college players learned those skills well before college. They know how to study in minivans or study until 1 a.m. and get to practice at 7 a.m. They spent summers playing tennis for 20+ hours a week, traveling around the country to USTA tournaments (sorry, HS tennis is not enough). I knew many talented young tennis players when they were 13 or 14, but only a couple of them made it to DI. Usually, they break around the age of 16. At that age, you have to rise in the rankings (UTR, tennisrecruiting.net) and get good grades. And it gets more complicated at 16 with boyfriends/girlfriends/cars, etc. There are many distractions when you are trying to play the best tennis of your life. Parents also start to think hard about money. DIII is always an option, and academics can be really strong. Dedicated HS players can get in. Yes, it's not as demanding as DI tennis-wise, but it's still a great game of tennis.
thedaybeforetoday
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

enad wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:10 pm
vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:25 pm
thedaybeforetoday wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 4:48 am
enad wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:44 am
vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:25 pm My 8th grader is very interested in tennis. He takes part in local competitions and wants more and more of playing and competing. He is reasonably good in academics and grades. We parents (and he too) most certainly want him to go to a good college after high school.
How can we parents support his tennis passion along with his studies at high school and going on to college? Can a tennis pathway help to get admission in an impacted major like Engineering?
Do high school tennis players get "recruited" by college coaches to be on their team, thus getting admitted to the college?
Any experiences from parents and pointers to info will be much appreciated!

thank you.
One of our distant relatives was both very smart and athletic and played sports in high school (football, basketball, golf & tennis), and managed to get a football scholarship from Harvard. He knew that he would never make it to the pro's and used the scholarship as a means to get into Harvard. So yes, I would say that athletics can be a pathway to college. Is there a coach at his high school that you can talk to about his tennis abilities?
There are no athletic scholarships in the Ivy league.
You are right. I reached out to the family who provided additional information. Their son was very athletic in high school and a star athlete (made the local newspaper), and he graduated in the top 10 in his class. According to his mom, Harvard recruited her son to play football. He sill had to apply for admissions and once he received a letter from the school, the school paid for his education through some endowment as they did not have the means to pay for tuition, so the schools endowment kicked in and covered his costs. She explained that it was easier to tell the rest of the family that it was a football scholarship, which I can understand because she felt ashamed to admit that they couldn't afford their son's education.

To the OP, here's an article that is a good read. Men's Tennis - How to get recruited | NCAsports.org

It's very competitive so good luck and keep the grades up
Thanks for doubling back on that question. This young man you are related to sounds extremely talented.

There are so many in the U.S. who can't afford college due to the escalating costs, meanwhile, many schools have huge endowments.
Harvard is the school sitting on the largest pile of dough at last count: $53 billion with a B:( https://www.usnews.com/education/best-c ... endowments)

Harvard handed out $235 million in financial aid in 2022, or less than 1% of their total endowment, so it's nice to hear a story of how that large endowment actually helped a deserving student.
"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them." R. Dangerfield
egri
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by egri »

Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
stoptothink
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Club soccer can be outrageous. We know several people who pay probably $20k/yr for their kids to play club soccer, and none of them are very good (even for the area). My brother grew up playing on the club soccer team with probably the greatest soccer player in American history (hint, the MLS MVP award is named after him), and he paid $0, including multiple international trips. They were fortunate that there were some very wealthy parents and sponsors, which allowed the coaches to recruit in poorer areas because they could cover the fees. My brother did end up playing D1 soccer, as did most of his teammates (at least 3 ended up playing professionally too).

My sister had a similar deal, but with a less heralded team (and there were no international trips). I believe once she got to like U15, the team could no longer subsidize some of the players, so she only played high school ball. She also ended up playing D1 soccer.
MMiroir
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by MMiroir »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am
egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Club soccer can be outrageous. We know several people who pay probably $20k/yr for their kids to play club soccer, and none of them are very good (even for the area). My brother grew up playing on the club soccer team with probably the greatest soccer player in American history (hint, the MLS MVP award is named after him), and he paid $0, including multiple international trips. They were fortunate that there were some very wealthy parents and sponsors, which allowed the coaches to recruit in poorer areas because they could cover the fees. My brother did end up playing D1 soccer, as did most of his teammates (at least 3 ended up playing professionally too).

My sister had a similar deal, but with a less heralded team (and there were no international trips). I believe once she got to like U15, the team could no longer subsidize some of the players, so she only played high school ball. She also ended up playing D1 soccer.
That happens in our area in soccer. The really talented kids who are strong potential D1 prospects are courted by the local clubs and don't pay fees or costs. Once they commit, the clubs use their commitment to advertise themselves to younger families who pay full fees in the hope their kids will get recruited. If the clubs are willing to waive or subsidize fees, you know they think your kid is the real deal. Otherwise, you are just a paying client.
young danny
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by young danny »

As someone who did play tennis A LOT growing up, I was on this path and then stopped when it did not become fun. The hours of practice after school, the weekends taken away from tournaments, my only friend group being tennis players, etc.

From my experience, I can count on one hand the number of people I knew well growing up who got a scholarship (don't know if it was a full ride). They went to to TCU, Amherst, Wash U, and BYU. Of the extended group of people I know who also played college at D1 level, 1/3 are tennis pros.
These four people were in the top 25 in state rankings (Texas) since they were in seventh grade and were all in. Personally, even then, I disliked the sports parent whom I felt was living their life through their child. It sickened me and still does (I know I'm projecting).

From my experience, tennis was like investing where it's an asymptotic behavior in you can grow so much so quickly but then it reaches a point where if you are all-in, there are incredible diminishing returns the more time you put in. It then becomes a choice for the child and family that if you want to be all-in, know what one is giving up. I chose to pull back a lot and enjoy time with friends, played on the high school team of-course, and rediscovered its fun.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by quantAndHold »

egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Tennis is similar. The amount of money parents have to pay for coaching, equipment, travel, tournaments, etc, for their junior player can equal or surpass what they would pay for a good college. And then the kid probably still won’t get a scholarship. One mom I was friends with had three kids on this path. All three of them ended up ranked in the top 5 in California as juniors. Only one even played tennis in college. She got a partial scholarship to a state school.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

MMiroir wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:19 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am
egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Club soccer can be outrageous. We know several people who pay probably $20k/yr for their kids to play club soccer, and none of them are very good (even for the area). My brother grew up playing on the club soccer team with probably the greatest soccer player in American history (hint, the MLS MVP award is named after him), and he paid $0, including multiple international trips. They were fortunate that there were some very wealthy parents and sponsors, which allowed the coaches to recruit in poorer areas because they could cover the fees. My brother did end up playing D1 soccer, as did most of his teammates (at least 3 ended up playing professionally too).

My sister had a similar deal, but with a less heralded team (and there were no international trips). I believe once she got to like U15, the team could no longer subsidize some of the players, so she only played high school ball. She also ended up playing D1 soccer.
That happens in our area in soccer. The really talented kids who are strong potential D1 prospects are courted by the local clubs and don't pay fees or costs. Once they commit, the clubs use their commitment to advertise themselves to younger families who pay full fees in the hope their kids will get recruited. If the clubs are willing to waive or subsidize fees, you know they think your kid is the real deal. Otherwise, you are just a paying client.
I think it happens with pretty much all team sports, from club level to high school. If you are a really good baseball or basketball or football player in high school, you will get opportunities for free tuition to expensive private schools that have top notch athletic programs. All the wealthy kids who aren't top notch athletes are subsidizing the cost.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your child is not getting openly recruited by high schools for sports, they are unlikely to be recruited by colleges (although there certainly are late bloomers).
coachd50
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:55 am
MMiroir wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:19 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am
egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:17 pm I see a lot of parents spend large sums of money thinking they will come out ahead with a full ride. My son is in 7th grade and plays competitive lacrosse. We spend maybe 15k a year on club team fees, private coaching, travel, gear, etc. He is pretty good but we have zero expectation that he will get a scholarship or play college lacrosse. We are just supporting his passion.

The parents who are in it for the scholarship are frequently irrational and would be better off saving all that money.
One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Club soccer can be outrageous. We know several people who pay probably $20k/yr for their kids to play club soccer, and none of them are very good (even for the area). My brother grew up playing on the club soccer team with probably the greatest soccer player in American history (hint, the MLS MVP award is named after him), and he paid $0, including multiple international trips. They were fortunate that there were some very wealthy parents and sponsors, which allowed the coaches to recruit in poorer areas because they could cover the fees. My brother did end up playing D1 soccer, as did most of his teammates (at least 3 ended up playing professionally too).

My sister had a similar deal, but with a less heralded team (and there were no international trips). I believe once she got to like U15, the team could no longer subsidize some of the players, so she only played high school ball. She also ended up playing D1 soccer.
That happens in our area in soccer. The really talented kids who are strong potential D1 prospects are courted by the local clubs and don't pay fees or costs. Once they commit, the clubs use their commitment to advertise themselves to younger families who pay full fees in the hope their kids will get recruited. If the clubs are willing to waive or subsidize fees, you know they think your kid is the real deal. Otherwise, you are just a paying client.
I think it happens with pretty much all team sports, from club level to high school. If you are a really good baseball or basketball or football player in high school, you will get opportunities for free tuition to expensive private schools that have top notch athletic programs. All the wealthy kids who aren't top notch athletes are subsidizing the cost.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your child is not getting openly recruited by high schools for sports, they are unlikely to be recruited by colleges (although there certainly are late bloomers).
Eh, in many places OPENLY recruiting high school students for athletic purposes, if caught, will result in ineligibility for those students.
Dregob
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Dregob »

allones wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm I played D1 golf for my in-state university. I didn't take up golf until my freshman year of high school, but by the time I was a junior, I was one of the top 3 in the state and #1 my senior year. I participated in many national summer tournaments outside of school which helped prepare me for some tougher competition and also raised my visibility. College coaches definitely track the regional, and probably national, talent.

I was recruited after my dad reached out to the university golf coach and expressed interest on my behalf. My academics were decent but I don't think I would have received an academic scholarship. I still had to apply and all of that. My hunch is since my tuition was in-state, my scholarship was an easier sell. The landscape now seems much more competitive with the young golfers I see intentionally seeking out what they want.

During the golf seasons (we competed in both the spring and the fall for 6-8 weeks) my schedule was 3-4 hours of practice every day after school, traveling to a tournament over the weekend, one day of a practice round, 1-2 days of competition (sometimes 36 holes in a day :x ), and then a flight home. I was essentially in class 3, maaaaybe 4 days a week. I started as a music major and left with a sociology degree. My teammates were mostly business majors. It's an incredibly grueling schedule. I did so much studying in airports and on airplanes. Thankfully, I got along well with my teammates because they were also my entire social life.

Professors are supposed to be accommodating to student-athletes, but sometimes they make it difficult. I got my only C ever (in choir!) because I failed to let the director know for my first three weeks of college that my absence was excused due to sports.

By my senior year, golf felt like a slog of a job. After college, I essentially didn't play for 20 years and just picked it up again a few years ago. Enough time passed that I can almost have fun and not feel the pressure (I put on myself) to perform well.
And that is how we got to athlete-students, rather than student-athletes.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

coachd50 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:35 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 7:55 am
MMiroir wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:19 am
stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:24 am
egri wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:18 am

One of my friends from high school got a full soccer scholarship from Northeastern, which at the time was about a $250,000 value. I was talking to her parents about it after graduation, and they estimated that with all the money they'd spent on traveling, private coaches, club teams, and everything else, they just about broke even. And I know a lot of her teammates from the club teams did not get scholarships.
Club soccer can be outrageous. We know several people who pay probably $20k/yr for their kids to play club soccer, and none of them are very good (even for the area). My brother grew up playing on the club soccer team with probably the greatest soccer player in American history (hint, the MLS MVP award is named after him), and he paid $0, including multiple international trips. They were fortunate that there were some very wealthy parents and sponsors, which allowed the coaches to recruit in poorer areas because they could cover the fees. My brother did end up playing D1 soccer, as did most of his teammates (at least 3 ended up playing professionally too).

My sister had a similar deal, but with a less heralded team (and there were no international trips). I believe once she got to like U15, the team could no longer subsidize some of the players, so she only played high school ball. She also ended up playing D1 soccer.
That happens in our area in soccer. The really talented kids who are strong potential D1 prospects are courted by the local clubs and don't pay fees or costs. Once they commit, the clubs use their commitment to advertise themselves to younger families who pay full fees in the hope their kids will get recruited. If the clubs are willing to waive or subsidize fees, you know they think your kid is the real deal. Otherwise, you are just a paying client.
I think it happens with pretty much all team sports, from club level to high school. If you are a really good baseball or basketball or football player in high school, you will get opportunities for free tuition to expensive private schools that have top notch athletic programs. All the wealthy kids who aren't top notch athletes are subsidizing the cost.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if your child is not getting openly recruited by high schools for sports, they are unlikely to be recruited by colleges (although there certainly are late bloomers).
Eh, in many places OPENLY recruiting high school students for athletic purposes, if caught, will result in ineligibility for those students.
There are no restrictions for private schools. The Mater Deis, IMGs, Montverdes, Prolific Preps, St John Boscos, Bishop Gormans, etc. of the high school world have athletes move from literally all over the world (not just the country) to attend there and it's completely out in the open because private schools can do whatever they want. There are restrictions at public schools, but they certainly still do it also, it's just not as out in the open and they get caught all the time.

Los Alamitos (a public school with one of the top football programs in California) is one that has recently had some issues with transfers. In one instance this year, one of the top defensive lineman recruits in the country moved there from Georgia. They also had the top TE in the country for the '25 recruiting class just move there from Texas and 2yrs years ago they had a big-time WR move from Las Vegas (and then he attended St. John Bosco, his 4th high school, for his senior year before going to Texas for college). It's crazy today, some of these top athletes have attended 3 or 4 high schools (often in different states) by the time they get to college.
valleyrock
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by valleyrock »

I know of people who paid their way through college playing pool at the student union. Check out the books on pool by Willie Mosconi. I recommend 9-ball, but 8-ball can be lucrative as well!
westie
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:00 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by westie »

Sounds like a worthwhile goal, encourage him to keep it up! The reality of the situation is unless your 8th grader is playing and beating high school tennis players, an athletic scholarship is unlikely. Best of luck!.
gips
Posts: 1760
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by gips »

I played a year of div 3 tennis and quit after it became apparent that the demands of a comp sci degree and three hours of daily practice, followed by an expectation that we hit the weight room followed by an expectation we hit on the weekends plus travel to other schools for matches was a crazy ask. I was the only stem major on the team. Much to my surprise, I wasn't good enough to play 1rst on our club team as it turns out there were other stem majors who were smart enough to not even try to play on the team.

Our kids all played hs tennis and I looked at scholarships extensively. despite what some posters have claimed, at a small lac like williams for instance, if the tennis coach wants you and your academic profile is a fit, you're getting in. A school like williams probably has about 4x the number of qualified applicants vs admittances, so yes, it's a big help but again, it's unlikely at this point your son will be able to play at a top lac.


imo, the best thing you can do is to encourage a love for the game as it's a sport for life. Let him play hs tennis, if you can easily afford it, send him to tennis camp or let him take lessons. try to get to every match you can, once his hs years are over, it's unlikely you'll have another chance to support him at a match or see him compete.

best of luck!
Last edited by gips on Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
niceguy7376
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:59 pm
Location: Metro ATL

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by niceguy7376 »

I know of someone in ATL that started their daughter in 4th grade in fencing solely with the aim of Ivy league admissions.
Now in 6th grade, they have travelled on so many weekends to tournaments in North America and South America.

I have no idea of where she is ranked in her age category but they sure are spending upwards of 25k per year
coachd50
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:46 pm

There are no restrictions for private schools. The Mater Deis, IMGs, Montverdes, Prolific Preps, St John Boscos, Bishop Gormans, etc. of the high school world have athletes move from literally all over the world (not just the country) to attend there and it's completely out in the open because private schools can do whatever they want. There are restrictions at public schools, but they certainly still do it also, it's just not as out in the open and they get caught all the time.

Los Alamitos (a public school with one of the top football programs in California) is one that has recently had some issues with transfers. In one instance this year, one of the top defensive lineman recruits in the country moved there from Georgia. They also had the top TE in the country for the '25 recruiting class just move there from Texas and 2yrs years ago they had a big-time WR move from Las Vegas (and then he attended St. John Bosco, his 4th high school, for his senior year before going to Texas for college). It's crazy today, some of these top athletes have attended 3 or 4 high schools (often in different states) by the time they get to college.
Your assertion that private schools have no restrictions regarding recruiting and private schools can do whatever they want ONLY applies to schools that play in associations without rules governing recruiting/transfers etc. Private schools that participate in associations with rules governing recruiting, such as private schools that compete in the same association as public schools most certainly CAN NOT "do whatever they want"

That said, I agree with your main point which is if the child in question isn't a prodigious stand out at the jr high levels, it is less likely that they would be receiving much attention come college time. And if the child in question is a male, and we aren't talking football or basketball, the dollar value of financial aid from that athletic endeavor will be limited.
coachd50
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

gips wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:17 pm I played a year of div 3 tennis and quit after it became apparent that the demands of a comp sci degree and three hours of daily practice, followed by an expectation that we hit the weight room followed by an expectation we hit on the weekends plus travel to other schools for matches was a crazy ask. I was the only stem major on the team. Much to my surprise, I wasn't good enough to play 1rst on our club team as it turns out there were other stem majors who were smart enough to not even try to play on the team.

Our kids all played hs tennis and I looked at scholarships extensively. despite what some posters have claimed, at a small lac like williams for instance, if the tennis coach wants you and your academic profile is a fit, you're getting in. A school like williams probably has about 4x the number of qualified applicants vs admittances, so yes, it's a big help but again, it's unlikely at this point your son will be able to play at a top lac.


imo, the best thing you can do is to encourage a love for the game as it's a sport for life. Let him play hs tennis, if you can easily afford it, send him to tennis camp or let him take lessons. try to get to every match you can, once his hs years are over, it's unlikely you'll have another chance to support him at a match or see him compete.

best of luck!
This is an excellent post on this topic. Extra curriculars like sports can absolutely help an applicant in the admissions process. However, trying to pursue such things strictly to "get in" or "get a scholarship" is missing the mark.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

coachd50 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:26 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:46 pm

There are no restrictions for private schools. The Mater Deis, IMGs, Montverdes, Prolific Preps, St John Boscos, Bishop Gormans, etc. of the high school world have athletes move from literally all over the world (not just the country) to attend there and it's completely out in the open because private schools can do whatever they want. There are restrictions at public schools, but they certainly still do it also, it's just not as out in the open and they get caught all the time.

Los Alamitos (a public school with one of the top football programs in California) is one that has recently had some issues with transfers. In one instance this year, one of the top defensive lineman recruits in the country moved there from Georgia. They also had the top TE in the country for the '25 recruiting class just move there from Texas and 2yrs years ago they had a big-time WR move from Las Vegas (and then he attended St. John Bosco, his 4th high school, for his senior year before going to Texas for college). It's crazy today, some of these top athletes have attended 3 or 4 high schools (often in different states) by the time they get to college.
Your assertion that private schools have no restrictions regarding recruiting and private schools can do whatever they want ONLY applies to schools that play in associations without rules governing recruiting/transfers etc. Private schools that participate in associations with rules governing recruiting, such as private schools that compete in the same association as public schools most certainly CAN NOT "do whatever they want"

That said, I agree with your main point which is if the child in question isn't a prodigious stand out at the jr high levels, it is less likely that they would be receiving much attention come college time. And if the child in question is a male, and we aren't talking football or basketball, the dollar value of financial aid from that athletic endeavor will be limited.
I should have prefaced that it depends on the specific athletic association, but that doesn't change my point. Myself and three of my siblings personally experienced it in California, granted it was quite a while ago. We ended up at 2 different public high schools and one private (who played in a public league) for sports. Currently my stepfather and one of my best friends are football coaches at two of the top football programs in the state (Utah, both schools are public). We also have personal experience with high school recruiting for wrestling here; my kids are in the state's top youth program, and our local high school and the high school where my kids' youth coach is the head coach are the two dominant programs (again, both public). Both programs have kids who have come from out of state (and live with relatives) to wrestle. Public schools and privates who play in the same associations as publics can get in trouble for it, but it's hardly a secret that everybody still does it - at least that is the case here. If you are a legitimate D1 recruit here (especially in football and basketball), the high school coaches at the top programs know who you are, and my prior experience suggests it's no different in California. It's also getting pretty ridiculous with the academies popping up everywhere that are little more than sports training complexes (we have our own here in Utah - Wasatch Academy). YMMV.

Tennis...I have no idea, although I do know that IMG initially started as a tennis academy.
coachd50
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:42 am
coachd50 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:26 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:46 pm

There are no restrictions for private schools. The Mater Deis, IMGs, Montverdes, Prolific Preps, St John Boscos, Bishop Gormans, etc. of the high school world have athletes move from literally all over the world (not just the country) to attend there and it's completely out in the open because private schools can do whatever they want. There are restrictions at public schools, but they certainly still do it also, it's just not as out in the open and they get caught all the time.

Los Alamitos (a public school with one of the top football programs in California) is one that has recently had some issues with transfers. In one instance this year, one of the top defensive lineman recruits in the country moved there from Georgia. They also had the top TE in the country for the '25 recruiting class just move there from Texas and 2yrs years ago they had a big-time WR move from Las Vegas (and then he attended St. John Bosco, his 4th high school, for his senior year before going to Texas for college). It's crazy today, some of these top athletes have attended 3 or 4 high schools (often in different states) by the time they get to college.
Your assertion that private schools have no restrictions regarding recruiting and private schools can do whatever they want ONLY applies to schools that play in associations without rules governing recruiting/transfers etc. Private schools that participate in associations with rules governing recruiting, such as private schools that compete in the same association as public schools most certainly CAN NOT "do whatever they want"

That said, I agree with your main point which is if the child in question isn't a prodigious stand out at the jr high levels, it is less likely that they would be receiving much attention come college time. And if the child in question is a male, and we aren't talking football or basketball, the dollar value of financial aid from that athletic endeavor will be limited.
I should have prefaced that it depends on the specific athletic association, but that doesn't change my point. Myself and three of my siblings personally experienced it in California, granted it was quite a while ago. We ended up at 2 different public high schools and one private (who played in a public league) for sports. Currently my stepfather and one of my best friends are football coaches at two of the top football programs in the state (Utah, both schools are public). We also have personal experience with high school recruiting for wrestling here; my kids are in the state's top youth program, and our local high school and the high school where my kids' youth coach is the head coach are the two dominant programs (again, both public). Both programs have kids who have come from out of state (and live with relatives) to wrestle. Public schools and privates who play in the same associations as publics can get in trouble for it, but it's hardly a secret that everybody still does it - at least that is the case here. If you are a legitimate D1 recruit here (especially in football and basketball), the high school coaches at the top programs know who you are, and my prior experience suggests it's no different in California. It's also getting pretty ridiculous with the academies popping up everywhere that are little more than sports training complexes (we have our own here in Utah - Wasatch Academy). YMMV.

Tennis...I have no idea, although I do know that IMG initially started as a tennis academy.
I believe we are saying the same thing – I just wanted to point out to those on this form that might not be as well connected or well-versed to the school aged sports environment that in many locations- the recruiting you mentioned was not “open”. It doesn’t look like what individuals experience at the college level, with phone calls, home visits etc because that is not legal in those associations.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by halfnine »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:42 am ...
Tennis...I have no idea, although I do know that IMG initially started as a tennis academy...
It was initially the Bollettieri Tennis Academy. In the 80s and 90s it was the place to go not because it was necessarily any good but because they had Courier and eventually Agassi and utilized them for marketing. And like you (and others) have pointed out this academy structure was a way to extract money out of willing parents expecting greatness for their children. But, in reality those with the true talents weren't paying and were getting select coaching and playing experiences the others were missing out on. At the beginning Bollettieri himself was largely clueless about tennis but recognized the potential that running an academy entailed.

As to tennis, itself, I would be very surprised if high schools are recruiting tennis players. Colleges were hardly doing it outside of the top 100 (I was around this level and was offered a partial scholarship to Purdue and entry into a military academy...ultimately decided against both). Now that's in no way to discount what happens in baseball, football, etc. tennis just isn't mainstream or financially viable enough for their to be an interest. And high school tennis is irrelevant to college recruiting (I won my region initially as a sophomore [colleges seriously don't care] and never trained with my team as it was a waste of time). For college scholarships state and national rankings are much more meaningful as is performance at select national tournaments.
jlawrence01
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:34 am
Location: Southern AZ

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by jlawrence01 »

bampf wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:54 pm
vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:50 pm Actually, I don't know if he is or is not on track for Division 1. There are D2 and D3 levels too right?
You should check out the schedule of a D1 athlete. It can be brutal. I can't imagine having to sort a rough eng degree along with a brutal D1 schedule. It may be different for tennis, but, its rough at the d3 level. Club can be a ton of fun. Things to think about.

Three comments:

1) If you are trying to pursue a significant major as a Division 1 athlete, my experience has been that it is nearly impossible to graduate with the necessary classes in a four year period. Most of the Div 1 football players that I know were pursuing a medical degree took five years (including the red shirt year) to complete course work and took an additional gap years to get the necessary experience. The one positive about athletics is that it does teach discipline and time management skills. Also, a Division I scholarship often includes room and board which is a phenomenal benefit for those who will have to pay for it. I do note that nothing is free and you really have to work for it.

One concern that I would have these days is that with the realignment of the conferences, fewer schools play their games regionally. For example, starting in the next year, schools like BYU will be traveling much further to the east and into south being affiliated with the Big 12. They will be heading to New Orleans, Cincinnati, Florida rather than schools on the west coast. That makes many road trips a day longer.

I was hoping that the conference realignment would be for football only but that does not appear to be the case.

2) My former employer was a Yale University football player. On the first day as a freshman, he was told that if you miss a class to attend practice, you would be dismissed from the team. I do not know if this still applies but I get the feeling that it would.

3) I have been connected with several NCAA Div III programs over the years. I really like the student-athlete model. However, if you get into the more competitive programs, I have to wonder whether I would want to dedicate that much time to a sport, especially if my end goal is something like medical school or the like.
coachd50
Posts: 1778
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:12 am

Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by coachd50 »

jlawrence01 wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:06 pm
bampf wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:54 pm
vikvestor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:50 pm Actually, I don't know if he is or is not on track for Division 1. There are D2 and D3 levels too right?
You should check out the schedule of a D1 athlete. It can be brutal. I can't imagine having to sort a rough eng degree along with a brutal D1 schedule. It may be different for tennis, but, its rough at the d3 level. Club can be a ton of fun. Things to think about.

Three comments:

1) If you are trying to pursue a significant major as a Division 1 athlete, my experience has been that it is nearly impossible to graduate with the necessary classes in a four year period. Most of the Div 1 football players that I know were pursuing a medical degree took five years (including the red shirt year) to complete course work and took an additional gap years to get the necessary experience. The one positive about athletics is that it does teach discipline and time management skills. Also, a Division I scholarship often includes room and board which is a phenomenal benefit for those who will have to pay for it. I do note that nothing is free and you really have to work for it.

One concern that I would have these days is that with the realignment of the conferences, fewer schools play their games regionally. For example, starting in the next year, schools like BYU will be traveling much further to the east and into south being affiliated with the Big 12. They will be heading to New Orleans, Cincinnati, Florida rather than schools on the west coast. That makes many road trips a day longer.

I was hoping that the conference realignment would be for football only but that does not appear to be the case.

2) My former employer was a Yale University football player. On the first day as a freshman, he was told that if you miss a class to attend practice, you would be dismissed from the team. I do not know if this still applies but I get the feeling that it would.

3) I have been connected with several NCAA Div III programs over the years. I really like the student-athlete model. However, if you get into the more competitive programs, I have to wonder whether I would want to dedicate that much time to a sport, especially if my end goal is something like medical school or the like.
Regarding #2, conversely, if you are at an Ohio State, or an Alabama, or USC or Texas etc, you won't be able to miss practice for classes, labs etc. Now, if after a few years you show that you are a high caliber player and want to "chance it" by telling the coaching staff to pound sand, you are taking those classes and will be late/miss meetings and practice- maybe you will have some sway (as to avoid negative publicity).

I can't remember which school- (but it wasn't a super big time perennial top 10 team), but I recently saw advertisements for their walk on spring try outs. IN big bold font it explained that anyone looking to do so could not have any classes before 11am I think, so as to be able to practice if they made the club.

The student athlete model doesn't exist in revenue sports among the Power 5 conference schools. You are an employee who needs to do what it takes to remain eligible.
Flashes1
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Flashes1 »

My manager's daughter swam at Cornell and said there's no way she would have been admitted without it. He coyly said you could tell by who were the parents of recruited athletes' at Parents Weekend by their race. Asians got in solely by their academics.....the university diversified the student body via the white/black athletes.
Pdxnative
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Pdxnative »

Flashes1 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:33 am My manager's daughter swam at Cornell and said there's no way she would have been admitted without it. He coyly said you could tell by who were the parents of recruited athletes' at Parents Weekend by their race. Asians got in solely by their academics.....the university diversified the student body via the white/black athletes.
Cornell brings in just under 4k undergrads each year. Around 200 of those are recruited athletes. That includes sports like Squash. Typically around 20% of the entering class identifies as Asian ethnicity. So I don’t think athletic recruiting is having the effect your manager assumes (likely more of a tongue in check comment I imagine).
Juice3
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Juice3 »

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Last edited by Juice3 on Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Glockenspiel
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Glockenspiel »

mw1739 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pm
Third upvote for this. We're at roughly $20k per year for high level youth hockey which seems crazy to think about. Even our coach made this comment a few weeks ago that we'd all be better off socking the money away for college.
This seems insane to me. I live in the State of Hockey (Minnesota), in a location within the metro that has a lot of hockey talent, have a 5-year old daughter, and have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.

I know in the Twin Cities metro area, there are typically 1-3 girls on each major high school hockey team that end up getting a college hockey scholarship, so the pressure is there.

We can afford college tuition but even my 5-year old daughter seems like she might have the "right makeup" to be competitive, athletic, and is well ahead academically, than the average 5-year old.
mega317
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by mega317 »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:15 pm have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.
Does she like hockey?
Glockenspiel
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Glockenspiel »

mega317 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:03 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:15 pm have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.
Does she like hockey?
She likes watching her older cousin play and loves competing in sports against her older brother. I feel like most kids CAN like any sport that they're exposed to, its just giving them the opportunity to participate and see what happens.
stoptothink
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:15 pm
mw1739 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:49 pm
Third upvote for this. We're at roughly $20k per year for high level youth hockey which seems crazy to think about. Even our coach made this comment a few weeks ago that we'd all be better off socking the money away for college.
This seems insane to me. I live in the State of Hockey (Minnesota), in a location within the metro that has a lot of hockey talent, have a 5-year old daughter, and have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.

I know in the Twin Cities metro area, there are typically 1-3 girls on each major high school hockey team that end up getting a college hockey scholarship, so the pressure is there.

We can afford college tuition but even my 5-year old daughter seems like she might have the "right makeup" to be competitive, athletic, and is well ahead academically, than the average 5-year old.
I agree that it is insane, but it isn't atypical in my experience. I am absolutely blown away how much some of our peers are spending for competitive swimming, lacrosse, club soccer, etc. As far as we are concerned, the ~$3500/yr we spend for both of our kids combined for their sports is pretty crazy and there is likely nothing that would get us to "invest" more.
Faith20879
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by Faith20879 »

allones wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm
Professors are supposed to be accommodating to student-athletes, but sometimes they make it difficult. I got my only C ever (in choir!) because I failed to let the director know for my first three weeks of college that my absence was excused due to sports.
This brought back some fond memories. Many years ago I taught Statistics 101 in a bigname SEC university as a non-tenure to pay my bills. A lot of the football and basketball players majored in Criminal Justice. Unfortunately statistics was a requirement for CJ sophomores. I was told to do everything within my power to help them reach certain grades. 8-) It was an open secret and none of the regular students ever complained. I guess winning trumps everything in that part of the country.
stoptothink
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by stoptothink »

Faith20879 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:41 pm
allones wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:02 pm
Professors are supposed to be accommodating to student-athletes, but sometimes they make it difficult. I got my only C ever (in choir!) because I failed to let the director know for my first three weeks of college that my absence was excused due to sports.
This brought back some fond memories. Many years ago I taught Statistics 101 in a bigname SEC university as a non-tenure to pay my bills. A lot of the football and basketball players majored in Criminal Justice. Unfortunately statistics was a requirement for CJ sophomores. I was told to do everything within my power to help them reach certain grades. 8-) It was an open secret and none of the regular students ever complained. I guess winning trumps everything in that part of the country.
I played football at a university that is in the PAC-12 for one more year (hint hint) and can confirm that it absolutely happens in other parts of the country too.
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bampf
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by bampf »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:11 pm
mega317 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:03 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:15 pm have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.
Does she like hockey?
She likes watching her older cousin play and loves competing in sports against her older brother. I feel like most kids CAN like any sport that they're exposed to, its just giving them the opportunity to participate and see what happens.
There are 36 Division 1 women's hockey teams.
D3 teams can't award scholarships.
D1 teams can award 18 scholarships per team.
That means there are 648 scholarships.
Assuming 1/4th of the team turns over every year, that means there are 162 scholarships nationally every year.

Your average house team will run you $500 to $1000 a season.
Gear is probably $250 a season unless they grow out of it. (Just team gear, you have to factor in skates, pads, helmets and so forth).
Each practice is about an hour and you are looking 2 to three practices/games a week.
Club teams are closer to $2K a season and tiered travel teams are$5k to $10K a season.
USA Hockey fees every year.
Inevitable injuries and associated expenses.

To be a tiered travel team player you are looking at 10 years more or less of expenses.
There were 83000 women in hockey last year. I have no idea what the break down of women vs youth hockey players are, but, let's assume half are pre-university.
Let's assume that 10% of those players are rising seniors looking for a scholarship.

4000 players going after 162 scholarships for any given year of which if you get it you are in a brutal D1 schedule program. There isn't much of a life for women's hockey after collegiate hockey. They need a trade/degree/prospect that doesn't involve compensation for playing this game.

Encourage your daughters to play hockey. It is a great sport. Don't do it because you think they will have a chance at a hockey scholarship. Its pretty rare. Its pretty hard to keep and using it to get into a good school is pretty unlikely. All of my daughters have played women's hockey.

--
bampf
Level 4 certified Hockey coach, referee, player and general hockey nut.
Nescio
jlawrence01
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by jlawrence01 »

A few other points to ponder:

1) Some sports like baseball in Division 1 may offer 16 scholarships for 35 players. That is, most players are on partial scholarships, not full scholarships. And you can have more than two people splitting one scholarship.

2) One advantage of revenue sports is that the amount of tutoring is relatively unlimited. If a student-athlete is motivated to do so, they can request (and generally receive) the services of several tutors. That is a nice benefit unavailable to most students.

3) What is most depressing to me in reading the biographies of various athletes at Division I is the number of 4th and 5th year students that do not have a declared major. And they are supposed to be making progress toward a degree. Equally interesting is when nearly an entire team has an identical major (hint: it is not pre-med.).

4) Be very leary about some of the recruitment by some of the more competitive Division III (non-scholarship) programs. You have schools of 1500-2000 who are bringing in 80 freshmen to play football. Athletics is a great way to get students on campus and increase admissions at a time when recruiting students as a whole is difficult. It is also a great way to increase the number of male students on campus. And it really does not cost the school that much as there are no scholarships involved.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Athletics pathway to college

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bampf wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:55 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:11 pm
mega317 wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:03 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:15 pm have seen the statistics saying women's hockey is one of the sports with the greatest chances of getting a college scholarship, so it's already making me debate whether we should get our daughter started in hockey.
Does she like hockey?
She likes watching her older cousin play and loves competing in sports against her older brother. I feel like most kids CAN like any sport that they're exposed to, its just giving them the opportunity to participate and see what happens.
There are 36 Division 1 women's hockey teams.
D3 teams can't award scholarships.
D1 teams can award 18 scholarships per team.
That means there are 648 scholarships.
Assuming 1/4th of the team turns over every year, that means there are 162 scholarships nationally every year.

Your average house team will run you $500 to $1000 a season.
Gear is probably $250 a season unless they grow out of it. (Just team gear, you have to factor in skates, pads, helmets and so forth).
Each practice is about an hour and you are looking 2 to three practices/games a week.
Club teams are closer to $2K a season and tiered travel teams are$5k to $10K a season.
USA Hockey fees every year.
Inevitable injuries and associated expenses.

To be a tiered travel team player you are looking at 10 years more or less of expenses.
There were 83000 women in hockey last year. I have no idea what the break down of women vs youth hockey players are, but, let's assume half are pre-university.
Let's assume that 10% of those players are rising seniors looking for a scholarship.

4000 players going after 162 scholarships for any given year of which if you get it you are in a brutal D1 schedule program. There isn't much of a life for women's hockey after collegiate hockey. They need a trade/degree/prospect that doesn't involve compensation for playing this game.

Encourage your daughters to play hockey. It is a great sport. Don't do it because you think they will have a chance at a hockey scholarship. Its pretty rare. Its pretty hard to keep and using it to get into a good school is pretty unlikely. All of my daughters have played women's hockey.

--
bampf
Level 4 certified Hockey coach, referee, player and general hockey nut.
Thank you for those sobering statistics, bampf.

I had some hockey players, perhaps two of whom might have been considered for college play. While it’s more rare in girl’s than boy’s hockey, a career ending concussion (or often, a series of concussions) is not that unusual. I have seen some “overly driven” parents keep their kids in the sport at a point where “more conservative” parents would opt for a different sport or different level of competition. One of my kids played club hockey in college and still plays occasionally in a men’s league, the other quit the sport entirely.

Bampf, do your statistics include foreign (especially Canadian) players and how they influence college admissions?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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