Hybrid car considerations

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Colorado Guy
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Hybrid car considerations

Post by Colorado Guy »

MODS: Did not want to hijack a different active hybrid car thread, but feel free to combine if appropriate.

Questions from the uninformed perspective. Am currently seeking a vehicle to supplement my truck for most of my daily driving requirements. While I like my 5.7 liter truck, it is overkill for much of the driving I do. So, while keeping it, am looking for a "car" with updated safety features. A current thread on hybrids has me thinking more strongly about hybrids.

If there is a hybrid car enthusiast website that discusses the following, please advise.

If there are specific hybrids to stay away from (for any number of reasons), that would also be helpful.

Would prefer a slightly used car (maybe a couple of years to avoid heavy depreciation), but not absolutely necessary. From the hybrid car owners, would you have any concerns regarding purchasing a used hybrid? Would a used hybrid from a rental agency be considered any differently than one from a private owner? Is used hybrid pricing generally similar to ICE cars (minimal price premium for the hybrid technology)?

For city driving, I can definitely see the appeal of a hybrid. However, I do not live in a metro area. Would you have any concerns about purchasing one for frequent mountain driving? I can stay in the slow lane occasionally if necessary.

I am wondering about how to check a used battery's condition prior to purchasing (remaining life span, etc). Trust the dealer (goes against my nature), or a separate test instrument performed by a competent garage?

Do many/most/few hybrid owners invest in a home charger? If so, what level of charger? Necessity or just nice to have? Do you / can you charge the hybrid at a work location that has chargers for electric cars?

What climate is best for battery longevity. Florida? Alaska? Chicago? How does a history of not parking inside a garage at night affect battery life (Am thinking of a rental hybrid car)?

Is the "battery" in a hybrid a single large battery, or one that is composed of multiple smaller batteries (each of which can be replaced individually)?Tied to this question, when a battery needs to be exchanged (out of warranty), is this something that is attempted by mere mortals? (Have changed/rebuilt engines before, even rebuilt a vehicle that was totaled, fun times).

Thx
Kendall
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Kendall »

Colorado Guy's topic has been moved to the Personal Consumer subforum.
Thanks to the member who flagged the post.
tibbitts
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by tibbitts »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:45 am Would prefer a slightly used car (maybe a couple of years to avoid heavy depreciation), but not absolutely necessary.
I'm not sure if depreciation is even close to being back to a thing yet. With some popular models (naturally what everyone wants) there may still be a premium for availability, so there may be little or no depreciation. It's not like a few years ago when you could sometimes buy a domestic model after a couple of years and get half off.
Ervin
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Ervin »

I would stay away from any company that hasn't been in hybrids for at least 10 years. I would use the Consumer Reports April issue to look up the reliability histories of their hybrids. I personally trust Toyota the most, because of their extensive history with Camry Hybrid taxis in big cities (e.g. New York). Try finding something similar in your favorite brands.

I would prefer a new hybrid to a used one, mostly because of warranties (and I doubt that one would gain that much nowadays by buying "slightly used").

You don't need a home charger for a hybrid, unless it's a plug-in hybrid (poor man's EV), and you plan on using it as an EV for your daily commute or so. That may or may not be worth it financially, I have no experience.

The best climate is a mild one. Too cold or too hot climates will kill the battery. That includes both Florida and Alaska.

The hybrid battery is made up of multiple small batteries that can be replaced by specialized third-party companies. The dealer and the manufacturer typically don't offer this option. For Toyota, a new hybrid battery costs about $4K installed.
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cmr79
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by cmr79 »

OP, you mentioned home charging. Are you interested in a plug-in hybrid (i e Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime, Chevy Volt, potential eligibility for tax credits, often able to drive on electric powertrain without using gas) or a more traditional hybrid (regular Prius and many others, does not plug in, either cannot drive on electric powertrain alone or can only do so for very short distances likely while parking in a garage--always needs to use gas, not eligible for federal tax incentives)? The technology and reliability should be very similar with these, but pricing and availability differs significantly. A choice between hybrids and plug-in hybrids is often driven more by cost/availability and the importance to someone to be able to do their around-town driving predominantly on electricity rather than other factors.
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Colorado Guy
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Colorado Guy »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:24 am OP, you mentioned home charging. Are you interested in a plug-in hybrid (i e Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime, Chevy Volt, potential eligibility for tax credits, often able to drive on electric powertrain without using gas) or a more traditional hybrid (regular Prius and many others, does not plug in, either cannot drive on electric powertrain alone or can only do so for very short distances likely while parking in a garage--always needs to use gas, not eligible for federal tax incentives)? The technology and reliability should be very similar with these, but pricing and availability differs significantly. A choice between hybrids and plug-in hybrids is often driven more by cost/availability and the importance to someone to be able to do their around-town driving predominantly on electricity rather than other factors.
A "traditional" hybrid is what I was thinking of. I honestly didn't know if people bought these and still needed (for whatever reason) a home charger setup.
robphoto
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by robphoto »

We owned a Prius V (the bigger Prius) for 10 year and 215,000 miles, had really no trouble with it.

The best vehicle for what you're looking for might be a newer RAV4 Hybrid. We've got a RAV4 Prime (plug-in hybrid) and it's great but they cost more and are hard to get.

People worry about the hybrid battery, but I don't think those failures are common. My brother in law put a rebuilt battery in his Prius at 250,000 miles, it's going strong at 300,000.

Before buying a car to save gas, I'd run the numbers. It's hard to save enough gas to save money by adding a car-- between purchase, insurance, repairs, etc. it might be cheaper to just put gas in the truck.
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Colorado Guy
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Colorado Guy »

robphoto wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:45 am We owned a Prius V (the bigger Prius) for 10 year and 215,000 miles, had really no trouble with it.

The best vehicle for what you're looking for might be a newer RAV4 Hybrid. We've got a RAV4 Prime (plug-in hybrid) and it's great but they cost more and are hard to get.

People worry about the hybrid battery, but I don't think those failures are common. My brother in law put a rebuilt battery in his Prius at 250,000 miles, it's going strong at 300,000.

Before buying a car to save gas, I'd run the numbers. It's hard to save enough gas to save money by adding a car-- between purchase, insurance, repairs, etc. it might be cheaper to just put gas in the truck.
I agree that it is cheaper to just put gas in my truck. Still, I would like the truck to last another 10 years or so, so having a vehicle to use instead of the truck is a goal. In reality, I only need the truck capabilities a few times a month, so a car would be my daily driver. I will look more closely at a Rav4 hybrid.

Is there a hybrid car specific website to look at the experiences of existing hybrid owners?
Carguy85
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Carguy85 »

Anything with a synergy drive…(Toyota)…several of the other systems (current and past) are laughable and borderline scammy imo. The synergy system is simply ingenious and truly synergistic…ok I’m a little bit of a nerd when it comes to drivetrains.
IowaFarmBoy
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by IowaFarmBoy »

We've got a Prius V at about 110k and have had no major issues. There is a lot of talk in the Prius Chat group about the V's and the third generation Prius (essentially same engine as the V) having issues with head gasket and brake booster failures. I'm not sure whether those are actually problems or just an internet phenomenon of all problems getting reported. I think Toyota did do a recall on the brake boosters but it may have a time/mileage limit. There is a company called Gasket Masters in California that seems to have built a business around head gasket replacement in Gen 3 Prius and Prius V.

If you want to dive into this, I'd recommend taking a look at the Prius Chat site. It seems like other versions of the Prius don't have issues like these. I'm doing additional maintenance like cleaning the EGR system and the intake manifold to try to prevent the head gasket issue. Those are the preventative things the Prius Chat group focuses on. The battery packs seem to be holding up pretty well. So I'm hoping for 200k without any major issues.
Carguy85
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Carguy85 »

robphoto wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:45 am Before buying a car to save gas, I'd run the numbers. It's hard to save enough gas to save money by adding a car-- between purchase, insurance, repairs, etc. it might be cheaper to just put gas in the truck.
A little while back we ran the numbers on our 13mpg Sequoia vs a new hybrid Highlander (35mpg) and even at 20k mi a year it didn’t really make sense from a money standpoint.
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Colorado Guy
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Colorado Guy »

Carguy85 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:10 am
robphoto wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:45 am Before buying a car to save gas, I'd run the numbers. It's hard to save enough gas to save money by adding a car-- between purchase, insurance, repairs, etc. it might be cheaper to just put gas in the truck.
A little while back we ran the numbers on our 13mpg Sequoia vs a new hybrid Highlander (35mpg) and even at 20k mi a year it didn’t really make sense from a money standpoint.
Ouch! I need to do this analysis as well, as I expect any new (to me) vehicle would average less than 10k a year.
mrb09
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by mrb09 »

In 2018 I bought a used 2014 Prius (CPO from Toyota). It was a great car, and I regularly drove it down to the flatlands and back (3500 feet to sea level and back). It was fairly peppy as economy cars go, and drove well, nicer than our early 2000's Forrester (although obviously not as good in the snow). The newer Prius (2015+) is more powerful and has the newer lithium ion battery for more battery storage.

I kept the car until we moved into town and went to a single electric car (BEV) shared between my wife and myself. Otherwise I'd still be driving it.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a used hybrid.
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Midpack
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Midpack »

Go to any make/model site of your choosing, there isn't a generic hybrid forum that I am aware of. I am sure every possible question you could ever think of has been answered on https://priuschat.com/forum/ a hundred times.

We've owned a 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid, a 2012 Toyota Prius, a 2019 Honda Accord Touring Hybrid and a 2022 Hyundai Santa Fe Hybrid - they have all been completely without issue. We kept the Camry Hybrid the longest, 11 years, the trade in value was higher than a comparable non-hybrid Camry of the same year despite 118K miles on it.

You don't plug in traditional hybrids as others have told you. You can't replace the traction battery yourself, it's a wholesale replacement but that's not all that expensive these days and there have been many Prius(es) that have gone 200-300K miles on the original traction battery (there is also a separate 12V battery like any car). I wouldn't have any issue with buying a lightly used hybrid, but they are in more demand these days so you probably won't find any bargains. Hybrids do fine in any climate, but you will get better mpg when temps are moderate, they will fall slightly when it's really hot, but you lose more mpg in winter cold. Our Prius got 54mpg on average, but it fell to about 45mpg during the most severe parts of Chicago winters, only a couple mpg drop during really hot summers.

Owning and driving a traditional hybrid doesn't seem any different than an ICE vehicle, you just get much better mpg.
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H-Town
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by H-Town »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:16 am
Carguy85 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:10 am
robphoto wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:45 am Before buying a car to save gas, I'd run the numbers. It's hard to save enough gas to save money by adding a car-- between purchase, insurance, repairs, etc. it might be cheaper to just put gas in the truck.
A little while back we ran the numbers on our 13mpg Sequoia vs a new hybrid Highlander (35mpg) and even at 20k mi a year it didn’t really make sense from a money standpoint.
Ouch! I need to do this analysis as well, as I expect any new (to me) vehicle would average less than 10k a year.
Run the numbers.

I spend ~$30 a month on gas. I can't imagine I could save money paying for a truck and a hybrid, including insurance, registration, repair & maintenance.
Time is the ultimate currency.
stoptothink
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by stoptothink »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:43 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:24 am OP, you mentioned home charging. Are you interested in a plug-in hybrid (i e Prius Prime, RAV4 Prime, Chevy Volt, potential eligibility for tax credits, often able to drive on electric powertrain without using gas) or a more traditional hybrid (regular Prius and many others, does not plug in, either cannot drive on electric powertrain alone or can only do so for very short distances likely while parking in a garage--always needs to use gas, not eligible for federal tax incentives)? The technology and reliability should be very similar with these, but pricing and availability differs significantly. A choice between hybrids and plug-in hybrids is often driven more by cost/availability and the importance to someone to be able to do their around-town driving predominantly on electricity rather than other factors.
A "traditional" hybrid is what I was thinking of. I honestly didn't know if people bought these and still needed (for whatever reason) a home charger setup.
The ICE charges the battery when driving (or from regenerative braking), you can't "charge" a traditional hybrid.

Sounds like a Maverick hybrid would be great for you. We love ours, but you aren't getting one for a long time and unlikely at anywhere near MSRP.
twh
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by twh »

Buy a plug-in hybrid Rav4 Prime XSE...get at least the weather package...get the PP if you can (very hard to come buy). Very impressive car and 40-50 miles on electric before the gas engine kicks in. Very peppy.
Carguy85
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by Carguy85 »

twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:04 pm Buy a plug-in hybrid Rav4 Prime XSE...get at least the weather package...get the PP if you can (very hard to come buy). Very impressive car and 40-50 miles on electric before the gas engine kicks in. Very peppy.
Cool vehicle but just checked within a 300 mile radius and $5-$10k over msrp seemed fairly normal..LOL…Bless their hearts. Mostly stock photos so probably not actually on the lot. The price difference over what a standard ICE RAV goes for pays for ALOT of gas. It’s tough to compare a Prime depending on how much you can/do utilize the plug in feature but with a standard hybrid vs ice it looks like the fuel savings a year at 12k mi usage is around $350. Seems like the fuel savings is “already priced in” at best on alot of vehicles out there.
Last edited by Carguy85 on Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
twh
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by twh »

Carguy85 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:21 pm
twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:04 pm Buy a plug-in hybrid Rav4 Prime XSE...get at least the weather package...get the PP if you can (very hard to come buy). Very impressive car and 40-50 miles on electric before the gas engine kicks in. Very peppy.
Cool vehicle but just checked within a 300 mile radius and $5-$10k over msrp seemed fairly normal..LOL…Bless their hearts. Mostly stock photos so probably not actually on the lot. The price difference over what a standard ICE RAV goes for pays for ALOT of gas.
They are still in limited supply. Look at dealers on the East Coast from New England down to Maryland. That will be the best place to get one and drive it home. You should be able to get MSRP or no more than $2,500 over MSRP. If you find an XSE with PP, it may be MSRP + $5,000.
crefwatch
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Re: Hybrid car considerations

Post by crefwatch »

I've owned two Toyota Prius cars, was very happy. The most common question I got from people was "aren't you afraid the battery will wear out" Since I only keep my cars eight years, it's a non-issue. And it's such a popular car that aftermarket junkyard Prius batteries are now commonly available. (Home installation not recommended, even for rugged individualists.)

Second most common question, "What do you do when that battery gauge gets near zero?" Answer: Nothing. The car is in charge of that. In fact, the car is designed, down to the software, to "behave" like a standard ICE car. The computer even sends low power to the motor when you take your foot off the "gas", because you are used to an Automatic Transmission car edging forward when you do that.

Third most common question: "How can you drive a car when the accelerator pedal is a potentiometer like a stereo volume control?" (i.e. my grandfather was a Flying Tiger pilot who had levers directly cabled to mighty, manly, control surfaces. He would never "fly by wire" like the commercial airplanes today." Another viewpoint quoted by Norman Mailer, in "Of a Fire On the Moon", "If the capsule doesn't have a window, we might has well keep monkeys as pilots.")

Many hybrids have Continuously Variable Transmissions, which only a few ICEs have. They can be noisy during acceleration, disconcerting to some. Many hybrids are engineered to have Low Rolling Resistance tires, which cost more and have poorer traction. They may also come without a spare, to save weight.
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