Cancel Tesla order?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
MJLyco
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:39 pm

Cancel Tesla order?

Post by MJLyco »

Hello all.
I've been debating on what my next car will be for years. In December the IIHS released a report that deemed the back seats (where my daughter sits) to be an unsafe place to be in the moderate overlap crash. (Poor rating) In January I learned that a small amount of coolant was mixing with my engine oil (ugh). In March, IIHS released a similar report for mid-size SUVs and 4 cars passed the new tougher test. The next day I ordered a 2023 Tesla Model Y as a replacement for my 2016 CX-5 (By far the cheapest and safest car that passed). Fast forward 1 week and my company announced layoffs that amount to about 20% of the workforce. I survived this round but now I'm re-thinking my Tesla purchase. Financially it makes sense to wait but I would be beyond upset if something happened to my kid because I was being overly cautious with my money. I find it hard to switch from saving to spending. What says the internets?
CletusCaddy
Posts: 2678
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:23 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by CletusCaddy »

A family of four survived a fall off a 250 cliff in a Model Y

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna64547

Buy the car
User avatar
cchrissyy
Posts: 2356
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: SF bay area

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cchrissyy »

we don't have any information on how affordable the car is for you either with or without a layoff

when do you need to decide?

the safest thing you can do isn't one car versus another it would be to drive less, period.
60-20-20 us-intl-bond
zlandar
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:51 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by zlandar »

Your Mazda is not a death trap.

If you are concerned about your job security I would wait.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18502
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Buy a Subaru Outback and get the same ratings as a Model Y. (technically better) for half the price.
Outback
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/su ... wagon/2023

Model Y
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/te ... r-suv/2023

Heck....trade your Mazda and it becomes a cheap upgrade.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Topic Author
MJLyco
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:39 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by MJLyco »

we don't have any information on how affordable the car is for you either with or without a layoff
Without a layoff it's easy.
Cash is ~$155k.
Taxable stock is ~$107k
Retirement is ~$443k
Mortgage is $245k @ 3.125%
when do you need to decide?
Tesla says April-June so I'm not sure but not this second.
the safest thing you can do isn't one car versus another it would be to drive less, period.
True but sometimes I have to. Soccer, school, store, family, birthdays, etc. I'm not going to have no car.
Topic Author
MJLyco
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:39 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by MJLyco »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:06 pm Buy a Subaru Outback and get the same ratings as a Model Y. (technically better) for half the price.
Outback
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/su ... wagon/2023

Model Y
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/te ... r-suv/2023

Heck....trade your Mazda and it becomes a cheap upgrade.
They didn't test the Subaru with the new test yet. It's the (Moderate overlap front: updated test)
The CX-5 also has Good in every category except it failed horribly in the new test.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/rear-p ... dsize-suvs
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-cr ... passengers
tonyclifton
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by tonyclifton »

To improve safety you could drive less, slow down, don’t text and drive, don’t smart phone and drive, don’t tailgate, don’t do or get into road rage.

Your current car is not unsafe - and yes there will always be safer ones or safer habits.

If it was me, I’d save that extra cash until your employment situation stabilizes to the point where you are not bringing up a potential job loss as a barrier to a new car purchase.
Doc7
Posts: 1122
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:55 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Doc7 »

MJLyco wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:07 pm
we don't have any information on how affordable the car is for you either with or without a layoff
Without a layoff it's easy.
Cash is ~$155k.
Taxable stock is ~$107k
Retirement is ~$443k
Mortgage is $245k @ 3.125%
when do you need to decide?
Tesla says April-June so I'm not sure but not this second.
the safest thing you can do isn't one car versus another it would be to drive less, period.
True but sometimes I have to. Soccer, school, store, family, birthdays, etc. I'm not going to have no car.

A brand new $55,000+ car is “easy” for someone with a dependents/family, a working car, a company actively going through rounds of layoffs, and NW excluding home equity less than twice their outstanding debts?

Or do you mean it’s easy to calculate that it’s not affordable?
rockstar
Posts: 6326
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by rockstar »

They also catch on fire. The F-150 Lightning also catches on fire. There seems to be a trend with EVs catching on fire. Get a proper fire extinguisher if you buy one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna68153

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/2361 ... fire-sk-on

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2023/ ... ithium-ion

I'll wait until they figure out this catching on fire thing with EVs. It's way past early adoption, but I'd like to make it past 50.

Oh, gas cars catch on fire too.
User avatar
cchrissyy
Posts: 2356
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 10:35 pm
Location: SF bay area

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cchrissyy »

MJLyco wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:07 pm
we don't have any information on how affordable the car is for you either with or without a layoff
Without a layoff it's easy.
Cash is ~$155k.
Taxable stock is ~$107k
Retirement is ~$443k
Mortgage is $245k @ 3.125%
when do you need to decide?
Tesla says April-June so I'm not sure but not this second.
the safest thing you can do isn't one car versus another it would be to drive less, period.
True but sometimes I have to. Soccer, school, store, family, birthdays, etc. I'm not going to have no car.
1 - those numbers don't tell us anything about how much room you have/had in your budget for a new expense. how much have you been saving every month? were you going to pay cash for the car? the Tesla or any other new car will have higher insurance and registration costs than your 2016.

2 - you'll be able to cancel and lose only the deposit right up until delivery time

3 - nobody is saying to stop driving entirely. but if you are so worried about your kid's safety the fastest and most effective way to decrease their risk is to drive them less.
60-20-20 us-intl-bond
Texanbybirth
Posts: 1612
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:07 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Texanbybirth »

OP, you can contact Joe Young at IIHS about the cadence for them releasing their new moderate overlap results. Next year the test will be mandatory to get an award (TSP OR TSP+). I too value their ratings highly. I plan to wait a year to upgrade, but am definitely keeping an eye out (and two eyes on the road in our current vehicles)! The Mach-e did get great ratings, btw.

Even as a consumer I’ve always found IIHS to be very open in communications. It’s refreshing cuz they seemingly have very little to gain from interacting with little old me.
“The strong cannot be brave. Only the weak can be brave; and yet again, in practice, only those who can be brave can be trusted, in time of doubt, to be strong.“ - GK Chesterton
Starfish
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Starfish »

Doc7 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:50 pm
MJLyco wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:07 pm
we don't have any information on how affordable the car is for you either with or without a layoff
Without a layoff it's easy.
Cash is ~$155k.
Taxable stock is ~$107k
Retirement is ~$443k
Mortgage is $245k @ 3.125%
when do you need to decide?
Tesla says April-June so I'm not sure but not this second.
the safest thing you can do isn't one car versus another it would be to drive less, period.
True but sometimes I have to. Soccer, school, store, family, birthdays, etc. I'm not going to have no car.

A brand new $55,000+ car is “easy” for someone with a dependents/family, a working car, a company actively going through rounds of layoffs, and NW excluding home equity less than twice their outstanding debts?

Or do you mean it’s easy to calculate that it’s not affordable?
+1
55k$ it's an expensive car, for people with a lot more money.
User avatar
White Coat Investor
Posts: 17413
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:11 pm
Location: Greatest Snow On Earth

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by White Coat Investor »

CletusCaddy wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:52 pm A family of four survived a fall off a 250 cliff in a Model Y

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna64547

Buy the car
I went off a cliff in a 91 Geo Prizm. Held up fine. I mean, it was totaled, but all occupants survived without injury. We weren't 250 feet below the road though. More like 50.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
User avatar
Metsfan91
Posts: 1019
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:33 am
Location: Rust Belt

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Metsfan91 »

MJLyco wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:48 pm Hello all.
I've been debating on what my next car will be for years. In December the IIHS released a report that deemed the back seats (where my daughter sits) to be an unsafe place to be in the moderate overlap crash. (Poor rating) In January I learned that a small amount of coolant was mixing with my engine oil (ugh). In March, IIHS released a similar report for mid-size SUVs and 4 cars passed the new tougher test. The next day I ordered a 2023 Tesla Model Y as a replacement for my 2016 CX-5 (By far the cheapest and safest car that passed). Fast forward 1 week and my company announced layoffs that amount to about 20% of the workforce. I survived this round but now I'm re-thinking my Tesla purchase. Financially it makes sense to wait but I would be beyond upset if something happened to my kid because I was being overly cautious with my money. I find it hard to switch from saving to spending. What says the internets?
Keep your CX-5. You should be able to get a couple of more years out of it. Always have your daughter sit on middle seat (which is the safest seat). Practice defensive driving.

When you bought it, you looked at reviews and ratings. IIHS had it rated Good (the highest rating) for crashworthiness. This was good enough for you for all these years. If you focus on this, perhaps you can get a few more years out of CX-5.
Last edited by Metsfan91 on Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Know what you own, and know why you own it." — Peter Lynch
rerod
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 9:05 am
Location: Iowa

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by rerod »

When an electric vehicle comes off the production line, it's already responsible for over 25,000 pounds of carbon dioxide emissions, compared to 16,000 pounds for a traditional combustion engine car. And over the lifetime of an electric vehicle, it will only emit 3 to 5 hundred pounds less carbon dioxide than a combustion engine.
Last edited by rerod on Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
YeahBuddy
Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by YeahBuddy »

rockstar wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 pm They also catch on fire. The F-150 Lightning also catches on fire. There seems to be a trend with EVs catching on fire. Get a proper fire extinguisher if you buy one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna68153

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/2361 ... fire-sk-on

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2023/ ... ithium-ion

I'll wait until they figure out this catching on fire thing with EVs. It's way past early adoption, but I'd like to make it past 50.

Oh, gas cars catch on fire too.

OP will need more than 1 fire extinguisher to put out his EV fire. Might as well buy a whole fire engine.

OP, the choice is yours. But if I was at all concerned about the security of my job, I would not buy a new vehicle.
I'm contemplating a Tesla Model 3 purchase but sticking with my cheaper Prius for now. Best of luck!
Light weight baby!
cmr79
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cmr79 »

rerod wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:54 pm When a electric vehicle comes off the production line, it's already responsible for over 25,000 pounds of carbon dioxide emissions, compared to 16,000 pounds for a traditional combustion engine car. And over the lifetime of an electric vehicle, it will only emit 3 to 5 tons less carbon dioxide than a combustion engine.
Are you assuming a heavily coal-based electrical grid? That is the only way I can see where these numbers may be close. A relatively fuel efficient ICE SUV like a RAV4 getting a combined 30 mpg will emit around 0.65 lbs of CO2 per mile driven, whereas the Model Y getting about 3.5 miles/kWh will have been responsible for emitting 0.64 lbs of CO2 per mile driven if the grid was 100% coal. The vehicles would have to be driven nearly a million miles to equalize emissions.

With natural gas, however, the Model Y value drops to 0.28 lbs per mile; the vehicles only need to be driven 24k miles for the CO2 emissions to equalize. With a clean source of energy like solar, wind, hydro or nuclear, that figure is 14k miles. Coal is under 20% of the US grid supply now, and clean sources are about 40%, so the "average" US Model Y would emit 0.24 lbs of CO2 per mile and equalize with a RAV4 ICE after 22k miles...over 100k miles, the "average" Model Y saves 36k lbs of CO2 emitted over the RAV4, so quite a bit more than "3-5 tons". To actually achieve a CO2 emissions benefit by the Model Y of 5 tons of less over 100k miles driven, the grid would have to be at least 75% coal. Only West Virginia still has that much reliance on coal for electricity generation.

I neglected to include charging losses, gas and oil mining-related emissions, and gas transportation-related emissions in these calculations; there are regional differences with values attributable to this but for all practical purposes, they likely cancel out. The average US ICE vehicle mpg value is also closer to 25 mpg, and even lower in mid-sized ICE SUVs.
hunoraut
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by hunoraut »

rerod wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:54 pm When a electric vehicle comes off the production line, it's already responsible for over 25,000 pounds of carbon dioxide emissions, compared to 16,000 pounds for a traditional combustion engine car. And over the lifetime of an electric vehicle, it will only emit 3 to 5 tons less carbon dioxide than a combustion engine.
Very relevant to crash safety
Valuethinker
Posts: 49036
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Valuethinker »

MJLyco wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:48 pm Hello all.
I've been debating on what my next car will be for years. In December the IIHS released a report that deemed the back seats (where my daughter sits) to be an unsafe place to be in the moderate overlap crash. (Poor rating) In January I learned that a small amount of coolant was mixing with my engine oil (ugh). In March, IIHS released a similar report for mid-size SUVs and 4 cars passed the new tougher test. The next day I ordered a 2023 Tesla Model Y as a replacement for my 2016 CX-5 (By far the cheapest and safest car that passed). Fast forward 1 week and my company announced layoffs that amount to about 20% of the workforce. I survived this round but now I'm re-thinking my Tesla purchase. Financially it makes sense to wait but I would be beyond upset if something happened to my kid because I was being overly cautious with my money. I find it hard to switch from saving to spending. What says the internets?
It doesn't feel like this is the moment to have a new car. Basically you need to hoard cash until it is clear that the threat of further layoffs at your company has receded. If this is the beginning of a recession, for the economy as a whole the turn is not likely to come for 9-12 months.

$50k is not trivial to your overall financial position. If you lose your job, you are going to need that cash. And bonuses, stock options etc are likely going to be much smaller or non-existent for a while.

I am not sure that one crash test for one type of crash is worth changing a car over.
grettman
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:47 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by grettman »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:06 pm Buy a Subaru Outback and get the same ratings as a Model Y. (technically better) for half the price.
Outback
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/su ... wagon/2023

Model Y
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/te ... r-suv/2023

Heck....trade your Mazda and it becomes a cheap upgrade.
This is what I would do. If the goal is safety, and if I could get the the same level or close to it for cheaper, it's a no-brainer.

Besides, although I am not paying close attention to this, it seems Tesla is frequently in the news about government investigations related to safety.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by stoptothink »

CletusCaddy wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:52 pm A family of four survived a fall off a 250 cliff in a Model Y

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna64547

Buy the car
Even if it is a bad decision financially? I am regularly shocked about the fear-mongering regarding car safety on this board.

OP, if you think you may be in for a layoff and losing your job would negatively impact your family financially (ie. you are not yet independently wealthy, which you clearly are not), there are bigger priorities than a new car. Your 6-7yr old Mazda is hardly a "death trap".
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

OP, I am one who is probably regarded on this forum as obsessed with car safety; I bought Volvos for my kids precisely for that reason and made it clear that the gifts were for MY peace of mind. That said, we could easily afford the cars and the only issue was making sure that the kids did not feel entitled. Fwiw, they never got into accidents and are good drivers. But, we can't guarantee that all drivers they share the road with will drive responsibly.

There are many safe vehicles other than the Model Y. I don't follow car news enough to make a suggestion, and you haven't disclosed enough financials to say whether you can afford a new car or to assess the likelihood of your being laid off.

Good luck; I feel you.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
barnaclebob
Posts: 5586
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by barnaclebob »

I have read that Teslas have some of the highest insurance costs for its category of vehicles. Why? They get totaled out with fairly little damage because there is no repair network. The neighbor behind me had one corner of his Tesla banged up during our December ice storms. Its been sitting in front of his house ever since. This would have been about 2 weeks in the shop with maybe a little extra time to wait because body shops were probably busy from the ice storm damage.
cmr79
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cmr79 »

barnaclebob wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:24 am I have read that Teslas have some of the highest insurance costs for its category of vehicles. Why? They get totaled out with fairly little damage because there is no repair network. The neighbor behind me had one corner of his Tesla banged up during our December ice storms. Its been sitting in front of his house ever since. This would have been about 2 weeks in the shop with maybe a little extra time to wait because body shops were probably busy from the ice storm damage.
There was a recent extensive discussion on this which suggested that insurance costs for a Tesla vs other comparable vehicles are extremely variable, and personal driving history and location matter at least as much or more. This would not be difficult for OP to figure out, and hopefully having put down a deposit they already know what it would cost them (and that it wasn't enough of an issue in their mind to bring up here).

I believe Tesla's service network has improved substantially in most areas over the last few years, but that is purely anecdotal as I've never owned one.
Deighve
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:30 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Deighve »

I may be wrong, but I think you can just delay again once you come off the Tesla waitlist.
User avatar
greg24
Posts: 4512
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:34 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by greg24 »

rerod wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:54 pm When a electric vehicle comes off the production line, it's already responsible for over 25,000 pounds of carbon dioxide emissions, compared to 16,000 pounds for a traditional combustion engine car. And over the lifetime of an electric vehicle, it will only emit 3 to 5 tons less carbon dioxide than a combustion engine.
Do you have a cite for that?
tunafish
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:47 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by tunafish »

I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by dknightd »

I would not cancel the order. Yet. Unless you put down a non-refundable deposit. I'd leave my name in the line.
You can likely refuse the delivery for many reasons. Likely the dealer can sell it to somebody else.
I see no advantage to canceling something you are not obligated to buy.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
hicabob
Posts: 3796
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 5:35 pm
Location: cruz

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by hicabob »

RobLyons wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:58 pm
rockstar wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 pm They also catch on fire. The F-150 Lightning also catches on fire. There seems to be a trend with EVs catching on fire. Get a proper fire extinguisher if you buy one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna68153

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/2361 ... fire-sk-on

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2023/ ... ithium-ion

I'll wait until they figure out this catching on fire thing with EVs. It's way past early adoption, but I'd like to make it past 50.

Oh, gas cars catch on fire too.

OP will need more than 1 fire extinguisher to put out his EV fire. Might as well buy a whole fire engine.

OP, the choice is yours. But if I was at all concerned about the security of my job, I would not buy a new vehicle.
I'm contemplating a Tesla Model 3 purchase but sticking with my cheaper Prius for now. Best of luck!
EV's catch fire much less often than ICE vehicles but when they do catch fire it can be worse. With new cars hybrids and plug-ins are the most likely to catch fire.

"Are electric cars more likely to catch fire?
Overall, EVs are about 0.3 percent likely to ignite, versus a 1.05 percent likelihood for gas cars, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board compiled by Auto Insurance EZ last year. “It's not like electric vehicles are more dangerous,” said Klock.Feb 2, 2023"
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by dknightd »

tunafish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 am I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
The rear backup camera is NOT a safety feature. It helps to avoid a fender bender.
I remember driving in a car that had no seat belts. Somehow we all survived. I think the secret was being lucky, and not being in an accident. I wear a seat belt when it is available.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
strummer6969
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:59 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by strummer6969 »

tunafish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 am I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
With newborns, I remember being hypersensitive about all sorts of things. Maybe it's an innate instinct to protect. In retrospect, this was all small stuff.
cmr79
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cmr79 »

hicabob wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:45 am
RobLyons wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:58 pm
rockstar wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:56 pm They also catch on fire. The F-150 Lightning also catches on fire. There seems to be a trend with EVs catching on fire. Get a proper fire extinguisher if you buy one.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna68153

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/2361 ... fire-sk-on

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2023/ ... ithium-ion

I'll wait until they figure out this catching on fire thing with EVs. It's way past early adoption, but I'd like to make it past 50.

Oh, gas cars catch on fire too.

OP will need more than 1 fire extinguisher to put out his EV fire. Might as well buy a whole fire engine.

OP, the choice is yours. But if I was at all concerned about the security of my job, I would not buy a new vehicle.
I'm contemplating a Tesla Model 3 purchase but sticking with my cheaper Prius for now. Best of luck!
EV's catch fire much less often than ICE vehicles but when they do catch fire it can be worse. With new cars hybrids and plug-ins are the most likely to catch fire.

"Are electric cars more likely to catch fire?
Overall, EVs are about 0.3 percent likely to ignite, versus a 1.05 percent likelihood for gas cars, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board compiled by Auto Insurance EZ last year. “It's not like electric vehicles are more dangerous,” said Klock.Feb 2, 2023"
Interesting time for this topic to come up. Hyundai/Kia just recalled an additional 571,000 SUVs and minivans due to risk of spontaneous fires related to faulty water sealing on toe hitch wiring harnesses (these are all UCE vehicles); they had already recalled more than 245,000 other vehicles for the same issue last year bringing the total to more than 816k. These vehicles need to be "parked outside and away from structures"...sounds eerily familiar to the 140k Chevy Bolts that were recalled, just on a much larger scale.

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/23/11657262 ... rk-outside
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by stoptothink »

dknightd wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:49 am
tunafish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 am I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
The rear backup camera is NOT a safety feature. It helps to avoid a fender bender.
I remember driving in a car that had no seat belts. Somehow we all survived. I think the secret was being lucky, and not being in an accident. I wear a seat belt when it is available.
Kind of confused why this was pointed out and apparently we have much different definitions of the term "safety". How is something that helps avoid you hitting something or someone, leading to the destruction of property or person, not a "safety feature". A backup camera could also help you not backup down the side of a mountain, that's not increasing safety?
Starfish
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Starfish »

dknightd wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:49 am The rear backup camera is NOT a safety feature. It helps to avoid a fender bender.
Or running over a kid.
User avatar
Will do good
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:23 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Will do good »

barnaclebob wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:24 am I have read that Teslas have some of the highest insurance costs for its category of vehicles. Why? They get totaled out with fairly little damage because there is no repair network. The neighbor behind me had one corner of his Tesla banged up during our December ice storms. Its been sitting in front of his house ever since. This would have been about 2 weeks in the shop with maybe a little extra time to wait because body shops were probably busy from the ice storm damage.
+1, My model Y was in a minor fender bender the repair bill is ~$9K, Tesla can't even give me an estimate for over a month, repair time is 3 months or longer. I'm not sure I would get another Tesla.
Starfish
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Starfish »

tunafish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 am I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
Most people would benefit a lot more by just adopting good basic driving behavior (pay attention, check your blind spot, signal, drive in the right lane except when passing, pay attention, pay attention etc) and maintaining their car (tires and brakes mainly).
Cemeteries are not full with dead kids whose parents did not have a Tesla. Only few years ago Tesla was not even an option.
empiricist
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by empiricist »

Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:30 am Most people would benefit a lot more by just adopting good basic driving behavior (pay attention, check your blind spot, signal, drive in the right lane except when passing, pay attention, pay attention etc) and maintaining their car (tires and brakes mainly).
Also, following at a safe distance! I have to estimate fewer than 20% of drivers follow at a safe distance. This is one that otherwise good drivers seem to think they can ignore.
Starfish
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Starfish »

empiricist wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:35 am
Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:30 am Most people would benefit a lot more by just adopting good basic driving behavior (pay attention, check your blind spot, signal, drive in the right lane except when passing, pay attention, pay attention etc) and maintaining their car (tires and brakes mainly).
Also, following at a safe distance! I have to estimate fewer than 20% of drivers follow at a safe distance. This is one that otherwise good drivers seem to think they can ignore.
This one is a lot harder to define. What is a safe distance?
A completely safe distance would be the distance that allows you to stop if the car in front comes at a full stop immediately (runs into a stopped car). It's completely impractical to follow such a rule.
For the rest of the situations it depends a lot on the driver attention and reflexes, tires, and the difference in braking distance between vehicles. This means that is very difficult to judge what is a safe distance for somebody else.
empiricist
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by empiricist »

Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:42 am This one is a lot harder to define. What is a safe distance?
A completely safe distance would be the distance that allows you to stop if the car in front comes at a full stop immediately (runs into a stopped car). It's completely impractical to follow such a rule.
For the rest of the situations it depends a lot on the driver attention and reflexes, tires, and the difference in braking distance between vehicles. This means that is very difficult to judge what is a safe distance for somebody else.
Your response is archetypal of the exact sort of reasoning I was referencing in my original post, so I appreciate you making it to illustrate the type of person I was referring to.

I follow at a distance where I could safely stop if the car in front of me comes to a full stop immediately, and it leads to a relaxing and safe driving experience. I don't understand why it is "completely impractical".

According to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Organization, 'Following too closely may be defined as, “situations in which one vehicle is following another vehicle so closely that even if the following driver is attentive to the actions of the vehicle ahead he/she could not avoid a collision in the circumstance when the driver in front brakes suddenly.'
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by dknightd »

stoptothink wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:20 am
dknightd wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:49 am
tunafish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:39 am I don't understand this fixation with new car safety features. I've driven for about sixty years and never been in a accident that had injuries. All three of the cars I've owned have been mine for years and years. The only new safety feature I like is a backup camera.
The rear backup camera is NOT a safety feature. It helps to avoid a fender bender.
I remember driving in a car that had no seat belts. Somehow we all survived. I think the secret was being lucky, and not being in an accident. I wear a seat belt when it is available.
Kind of confused why this was pointed out and apparently we have much different definitions of the term "safety". How is something that helps avoid you hitting something or someone, leading to the destruction of property or person, not a "safety feature". A backup camera could also help you not backup down the side of a mountain, that's not increasing safety?
Sorry, I was thinking only of the occupants of the vehicle. And ones who were paying attention.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that vehicles are safer today than they were even 10 years.
Backup cameras are useful. But I would not depend on it for safety.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by dknightd »

Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:42 am
empiricist wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:35 am
Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:30 am Most people would benefit a lot more by just adopting good basic driving behavior (pay attention, check your blind spot, signal, drive in the right lane except when passing, pay attention, pay attention etc) and maintaining their car (tires and brakes mainly).
Also, following at a safe distance! I have to estimate fewer than 20% of drivers follow at a safe distance. This is one that otherwise good drivers seem to think they can ignore.
This one is a lot harder to define. What is a safe distance?
A completely safe distance would be the distance that allows you to stop if the car in front comes at a full stop immediately (runs into a stopped car). It's completely impractical to follow such a rule.
For the rest of the situations it depends a lot on the driver attention and reflexes, tires, and the difference in braking distance between vehicles. This means that is very difficult to judge what is a safe distance for somebody else.
I 100% agree. A well maintained vehicle, and an attentive driver is most likely the best safety measure..
I use the 2 second rule for following distance. Adaptive cruse control, and assisted braking, are good. I like them as a backup
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
adamthesmythe
Posts: 5774
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:47 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by adamthesmythe »

1. Modern vehicles are much safer than those of a few decades ago. Trying to find differences between high-safety score vehicles is like trying to pick the safest airline between AA and UA.

2. Teslas without radar sensors have had incidents of uncommanded sudden braking. This alone is a safety concern other vehicles don't have.

3. To stay safER be thoughtful about WHEN and WHERE you drive. How MUCH you drive is much less important.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:33 am 3. To stay safER be thoughtful about WHEN and WHERE you drive. How MUCH you drive is much less important.
As an extreme example, good luck trying to catch me driving on New Year's Eve or shortly after.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
cmr79
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cmr79 »

adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:33 am 1. Modern vehicles are much safer than those of a few decades ago. Trying to find differences between high-safety score vehicles is like trying to pick the safest airline between AA and UA.

2. Teslas without radar sensors have had incidents of uncommanded sudden braking. This alone is a safety concern other vehicles don't have.

3. To stay safER be thoughtful about WHEN and WHERE you drive. How MUCH you drive is much less important.
We've had this happen with the EyeSight driver assist system on our Subaru twice, both times likely related to bright sunlight filtering through trees and interfering with the cameras. Fortunately neither resulted in an accident. It is probably an issue with any camera-dependent safety system, Tesla being one of the more prominent examples currently, but certainly not an issue exclusive to Teslas.
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by dknightd »

adamthesmythe wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:33 am 1. Modern vehicles are much safer than those of a few decades ago. Trying to find differences between high-safety score vehicles is like trying to pick the safest airline between AA and UA.

2. Teslas without radar sensors have had incidents of uncommanded sudden braking. This alone is a safety concern other vehicles don't have.

3. To stay safER be thoughtful about WHEN and WHERE you drive. How MUCH you drive is much less important.
And - do not drive when you should not be driving!
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
cmr79
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:25 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by cmr79 »

empiricist wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:48 am
Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:42 am This one is a lot harder to define. What is a safe distance?
A completely safe distance would be the distance that allows you to stop if the car in front comes at a full stop immediately (runs into a stopped car). It's completely impractical to follow such a rule.
For the rest of the situations it depends a lot on the driver attention and reflexes, tires, and the difference in braking distance between vehicles. This means that is very difficult to judge what is a safe distance for somebody else.
Your response is archetypal of the exact sort of reasoning I was referencing in my original post, so I appreciate you making it to illustrate the type of person I was referring to.

I follow at a distance where I could safely stop if the car in front of me comes to a full stop immediately, and it leads to a relaxing and safe driving experience. I don't understand why it is "completely impractical".

According to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Organization, 'Following too closely may be defined as, “situations in which one vehicle is following another vehicle so closely that even if the following driver is attentive to the actions of the vehicle ahead he/she could not avoid a collision in the circumstance when the driver in front brakes suddenly.'
Coming to a full stop on the highway at the 70 mph speed limit can take 300+ feet when taking reaction time and braking distance into account. I agree with Starfish that always maintaining this distance would not be practical, and I think your response says a lot more about you as a person than theirs did...
empiricist
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:21 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by empiricist »

cmr79 wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:00 pm Coming to a full stop on the highway at the 70 mph speed limit can take 300+ feet when taking reaction time and braking distance into account. I agree with Starfish that always maintaining this distance would not be practical, and I think your response says a lot more about you as a person than theirs did...
My intention wasn't to critique Starfish so much as recognize their comments as exactly the sort of argument I normally hear from those who don't believe they need to maintain a safe following distance. The word "impractical" is one of the key words that is used when people make such an argument.

When pressed, the reason why they feel it is "impractical" is because then other vehicles will be able to merge in front of them in heavy traffic. So what? Slow down ever so slightly, reestablish a safe following distance, resume the speed you were at, and continue on. The only thing you've lost is several seconds, and you've gained the ability to stop safely in an emergency.

Following at a safe distance may make you get there slightly slower, but you gain safety. As in investing, we are all entitled to our own risk appetites and can judge what level of risk we feel comfortable with. But specifically in the context of this thread, where getting a different vehicle because it is safer in one specific crash test is being discussed, I certainly think it's reasonable to acknowledge that following at a safe distance certainly enhances safety, at a very marginal cost. (It is axiomatically less safe to follow at a distance where you admit you could not avoid an accident if the vehicle in front of you stopped suddenly than the alternative where you at least have a reasonable chance of avoiding an accident.)

It has been my experience that the people who argue against following at a safe distance are generally more aggressive and always-in-a-hurry drivers, and they don't want to change their driving style, so they must then take a position that following at a safe distance is "impractical" because just driving a bit less aggressively and arriving a few seconds later slowly isn't something they are willing to do.
IowaFarmBoy
Posts: 1240
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:19 am

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by IowaFarmBoy »

Have you gotten a diagnosis on the coolant in the oil? Makes me think head gasket which can be pricey.
Starfish
Posts: 2996
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:33 pm

Re: Cancel Tesla order?

Post by Starfish »

empiricist wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:48 am
Starfish wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:42 am This one is a lot harder to define. What is a safe distance?
A completely safe distance would be the distance that allows you to stop if the car in front comes at a full stop immediately (runs into a stopped car). It's completely impractical to follow such a rule.
For the rest of the situations it depends a lot on the driver attention and reflexes, tires, and the difference in braking distance between vehicles. This means that is very difficult to judge what is a safe distance for somebody else.
Your response is archetypal of the exact sort of reasoning I was referencing in my original post, so I appreciate you making it to illustrate the type of person I was referring to.
Well, I have about a million miles driven mostly in US but also on 3 continents and about 10 countries where is much harder to drive than in US, with no accidents except couple of fender benders, so I have to assume by that you mean a safe driver.
I follow at a distance where I could safely stop if the car in front of me comes to a full stop immediately, and it leads to a relaxing and safe driving experience. I don't understand why it is "completely impractical".
Because at highway spends you we have to leave hundreds of feet distance in front of you, which would be quickly occupied by other cars.
If everybody would follow such a rule the throughput of the highways would decrease dramatically.
According to the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Organization, 'Following too closely may be defined as, “situations in which one vehicle is following another vehicle so closely that even if the following driver is attentive to the actions of the vehicle ahead he/she could not avoid a collision in the circumstance when the driver in front brakes suddenly.'
Which is exactly my definition.
empiricist wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:11 pm When pressed, the reason why they feel it is "impractical" is because then other vehicles will be able to merge in front of them in heavy traffic. So what? Slow down ever so slightly, reestablish a safe following distance, resume the speed you were at, and continue on. The only thing you've lost is several seconds, and you've gained the ability to stop safely in an emergency.
300 feet usually contains several cars. You would have to practically stopped to have always an empty stretch of highway lane of 300 feet in reasonable traffic, but even then it might not be possible.
I think you are expressing a personal pet peeve, a irrational fear, not a rational risk mitigation strategy. I am very afraid of roller coasters, but don't go around and telling people that they are doing something wrong when they go in one.
It has been my experience that the people who argue against following at a safe distance are generally more aggressive and always-in-a-hurry drivers,
We are talking about safety, not "aggressive drivers". Not at all the same thing.
Last edited by Starfish on Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Post Reply