College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

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Watty
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Watty »

skibummer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:08 am ....senior son is accepted to Pitt and Purdue for CS .....
I just googled it and Pit is 44% male and 56% female. (33% more)

Purdue is almost the opposite and 42% female and 58% male. (38% more)

The effective opposite sex dating pool is even more skewed when couples pair up the remaining pool becomes even more out of balance. For example if 10% of both men and women are in an opposite relationship then for Purdue the remaining available students who are not in a relationship would be 32% female and 48% male, so there would be 50% more available men than women.

I would not suggest that the gender ratio should be a high criteria in selecting a college but it would be good for him to not underestimate it especially if he is not very socially outgoing like CS students of both genders are stereotyped to be.

It was decades ago but I got a BS in CS at a state STEM campus where the ratio was even worse where there were something like 8 guys for every girl. You can get some odd social dynamics when the balance is that lopsided but even lower imbalances could impact the kids social development and there is more than grain of truth in the computer geek stereotype.

I had gone to the state flagship university which had a bit of a reputation as being a party school for the first two years before I changed majors and transferred to the STEM campus. By then I had a chance to develop more social skills than I had in high school and if I had gone straight to the STEM campus developing those social skills might have been a lot different.

There is a line from an old movie about a gender imbalance that the women would sometimes mention which alludes to this, "The odds are good, but the goods are odd."
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

skibummer wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:08 am Our graduating senior son is accepted to Pitt and Purdue for CS. He likes both, but would like some input on the pros and cons of either school within the CS community. Financial costs are essentially the same and not factoring in to the decision. We live in the VA/DC/MD area.
For CS or engineering, Purdue in a heartbeat based on academics. Non-academic criteria may lead to a different choice (such as urban vs rural).
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GRP
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
carne_asada
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by carne_asada »

As someone who hires lots of CS majors for a well known megacorp. Both Purdue and Pitt would be considered equivalent from a candidate quality perspective and frankly we stopped caring where candidates went to school years ago. Nearly everyone gets an interview and has an equal shot.
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beyou
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
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LiveSimple
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by LiveSimple »

Both Purdue and Pitt seems good hard to decide so let the son decide where to go...

From a career perspective there are jobs in computer science where the business interacts with the technology or technology generated business areas.

Best wishes to your son and family !!! beautiful family years to enjoy seeing the kids get education and start their independent life...from us the parents...
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
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beyou
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

carne_asada wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 am As someone who hires lots of CS majors for a well known megacorp. Both Purdue and Pitt would be considered equivalent from a candidate quality perspective and frankly we stopped caring where candidates went to school years ago. Nearly everyone gets an interview and has an equal shot.
Does not matter to employer but does matter to student.
The school can have impact on getting internships and this leads to more opportunities later.
Location of school near many coop or internships makes a difference in accessibility.
Reputation of school gets HR recruiters to on campus recruiting events.
On campus jobs can be relevant at some schools.

When I was a student, worked as CS tutor, on computing center help desk and as CS TA.
Had I accepted at an Ivy maybe I would not have gotten these opportunities (turned down ivy for 2nd tier but better location).

Worked at a mutual fund and econ consulting firm on sw dev, both commutable by public transit in city where my college was located. Led to a long career in fintech. I am not sure things would have turned out same if at a rural campus.

My school had great profs in CS, hired with PhD from more prestigious schools, great career center that took advantage of location. Just picking the most prestigious is not always sensible, though the career fairs at the more prestigious schools are more extensive. But career fairs only help so much.
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SconnieBro
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SconnieBro »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
This. Spoiler alert for all the doomsayers: software engineering is much more than simply writing functions. The code is often the easy part.
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jabberwockOG
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by jabberwockOG »

Worked in IT for 38 years. Hired uncountable numbers of folks over the years. Pick the school that looks like the best fit personally and one that will be engaging and fun if possible. School name for CS degree matters only if you are attending one of the top 5-8 "name" schools (MIT/Stanford/Mellon/Caltech/UC Berkley/etc). If not it pretty much doesn't matter where you get a CS degree.

Very few serious companies care a lot about where a potential hire went to school to get CS degree. In most cases high GPA is how you get the interview.

Potential hires get an interview generally based on a high GPA and then they succeed or fail to get that first job based on energy, engagement level and personality during the interview/vetting process.

After that first job, for most subsequent technical CS jobs no one cares where you went to school. Qualifications for follow on jobs hire are 95% about your experience, demonstrated capabilities, and references at that point.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by leo383 »

Computer science numbers all favor Purdue. Rankings, salary, etc

That isn't the whole picture. Pittsburgh is a great livable city that somehow remains affordable and exciting.

Purdue is a pretty remote, mostly tech university, and 60/40 guys. Don't discount quality of life as a factor in your son's college life.
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Watty
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Watty »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
Retired corporate software developer here.

At least in the corporate IT environment for the last 30 years there has been a huge trend for companies to use software packages for things like their inventory and order system because it would so expensive to develop software in house and there was a risk that you could spend a lot of time and money on a project only to have it turn out poorly.

If AI makes developing software less expensive then there is good chance that at least in the corporate environment it will increase the need for software developers since companies will then be able to create custom software in house for tasks that they previously would have used a software package for or not done at all.

I have not looked into using AI to write software but I am a bit skeptical that it will be able to be real useful real soon. It is one thing for AI to generate new software from scratch which would be an accomplishment but a bigger challenge is that the vast majority of software development is actually modifying existing systems which in most situations is much more difficult, at least for a human.
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SconnieBro
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by SconnieBro »

Watty wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 8:34 am Retired corporate software developer here.

At least in the corporate IT environment for the last 30 years there has been a huge trend for companies to use software packages for things like their inventory and order system because it would so expensive to develop software in house and there was a risk that you could spend a lot of time and money on a project only to have it turn out poorly.

If AI makes developing software less expensive then there is good chance that at least in the corporate environment it will increase the need for software developers since companies will then be able to create custom software in house for tasks that they previously would have used a software package for or not done at all.

I have not looked into using AI to write software but I am a bit skeptical that it will be able to be real useful real soon. It is one thing for AI to generate new software from scratch which would be an accomplishment but a bigger challenge is that the vast majority of software development is actually modifying existing systems which in most situations is much more difficult, at least for a human.
Spot on Watty. I’m a software developer at a F100 and chatGPT is a nice upgrade to google when looking up basic syntax. It might be able to “replace” a junior developer with 0-60 days experience who is tasked with the most basic of functions written in a vacuum, but I think the rest of our jobs are safe for the foreseeable future.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by quantAndHold »

carne_asada wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:42 am As someone who hires lots of CS majors for a well known megacorp. Both Purdue and Pitt would be considered equivalent from a candidate quality perspective and frankly we stopped caring where candidates went to school years ago. Nearly everyone gets an interview and has an equal shot.
Everyone gets an equal shot, but grads from some schools do better than grads from others, both on the interviews and once they get hired.

Also, not everyone ends up working for a megatech. I suspect Purdue has a better CS recruiting pipeline among the companies that aren’t just trying to scoop up every warm body who can pass a coding interview.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by Vulcan »

Gronnie wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:33 pm I have a CS degree and have done very well. I would recommend a different major at this time. It's going to be very bad for junior SEs for the foreseeable future if not forever.
Depends on how good you are.

https://www.levels.fyi/internships/

These are internships. Double these numbers for fresh grad offers.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by quantAndHold »

SconnieBro wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:11 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
This. Spoiler alert for all the doomsayers: software engineering is much more than simply writing functions. The code is often the easy part.
People have been predicting the demise of software engineering in favor of some automated thing or another at least since I was in college in the 80’s. Making software faster and easier to write has caused the opposite to happen. There’s more software and more software development engineers than ever.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by Vulcan »

MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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skibummer
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by skibummer »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:29 am
MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
He applied to CMU, but realistically he is unlikely to get in (regular decision hasn’t been announced yet). He is mid-1500s SAT, 4.0 UWGPA, 4.6 WGPA, Eagle Scout, good ECs (extra curriculars), and a lot of AP classes, good passion projects posted on GitHub, but CS (computer science) is crazy competive and we don’t have any hooks to the top 10 schools and he doesn’t check any of the first gen, low income or EDI (equity, diversity, inclusion) goals. He is a very competitive top 10-20 school CS applicant. Many of these schools have had 40-50,000 applicants this year. Acceptance rates are in the 3-6% or less and that is even in the top 10-20 schools tier. He is torn because he loves a big city, urban feel like Pitt, but it clearly seems Purdue is ranked above Pitt to a significant degree and “may” give him an edge in recruiting, opportunities, and networking. Tough call, hence the reach out to the Bogleheads community.
Last edited by skibummer on Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by KlangFool »

skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:51 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:29 am
MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
He applied to CMU, but realistically he is unlikely to get in (regular decision hasn’t been announced yet). He is mid-1500s SAT, 4.0 UWGPA, 4.6 WGPA, Eagle Scout, good ECs (extra curriculars), and a lot of AP classes, good passion projects posted on GitHub, but CS (computer science) is crazy competive and we don’t have any hooks to the top 10 schools and he doesn’t check any of the first gen, low income or EDI goals. He is a very competitive top 10-20 school CS applicant. Many of these schools have had 40-50,000 applicants this year. Acceptance rates are in the 3-6% or less and that is even in the top 10-20 schools tier.
1) Did he apply to VTech and University of Maryland?

2) What is his eventual career goal? Is Computer Science the best way to get there?

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skibummer
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by skibummer »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:51 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:29 am
MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
He applied to CMU, but realistically he is unlikely to get in (regular decision hasn’t been announced yet). He is mid-1500s SAT, 4.0 UWGPA, 4.6 WGPA, Eagle Scout, good ECs (extra curriculars), and a lot of AP classes, good passion projects posted on GitHub, but CS (computer science) is crazy competive and we don’t have any hooks to the top 10 schools and he doesn’t check any of the first gen, low income or EDI goals. He is a very competitive top 10-20 school CS applicant. Many of these schools have had 40-50,000 applicants this year. Acceptance rates are in the 3-6% or less and that is even in the top 10-20 schools tier.
1) Did he apply to VTech and University of Maryland?

2) What is his eventual career goal? Is Computer Science the best way to get there?

KlangFool
We toured Virginia Tech and he didn’t like it. VT provides a general acceptance to the school of engineering and you don’t find out if you get to choose CS until after first 2 yrs. He wanted schools that provided acceptance to intended major as an applicant or didn’t limit or cap majors once accepted. He has been “wired” for CS, embedded engineering since a little guy. Has 2-3 3D printers at home, designs and fabricates stuff (fabricated and designed circuits showing up from a China is not a rare thing at our house). We didn’t look at Maryland. He didn’t want to apply to UM-College Park. He applied to areas outside of our area to see new parts of the country. He just logged into his CMU portal and got a “thank you for applying, we regret to inform you…” ☹️
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quantAndHold
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by quantAndHold »

A kid like that will be successful wherever he goes. Fingers crossed for CMU.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by KlangFool »

skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:05 am
KlangFool wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:51 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:29 am
MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
He applied to CMU, but realistically he is unlikely to get in (regular decision hasn’t been announced yet). He is mid-1500s SAT, 4.0 UWGPA, 4.6 WGPA, Eagle Scout, good ECs (extra curriculars), and a lot of AP classes, good passion projects posted on GitHub, but CS (computer science) is crazy competive and we don’t have any hooks to the top 10 schools and he doesn’t check any of the first gen, low income or EDI goals. He is a very competitive top 10-20 school CS applicant. Many of these schools have had 40-50,000 applicants this year. Acceptance rates are in the 3-6% or less and that is even in the top 10-20 schools tier.
1) Did he apply to VTech and University of Maryland?

2) What is his eventual career goal? Is Computer Science the best way to get there?

KlangFool
We toured Virginia Tech and he didn’t like it. VT provides a general acceptance to the school of engineering and you don’t find out if you get to choose CS until after first 2 yrs. He wanted schools that provided acceptance to intended major as an applicant or didn’t limit or cap majors once accepted. He has been “wired” for CS, embedded engineering since a little guy. Has 2-3 3D printers at home, designs and fabricates stuff (fabricated and designed circuits showing up from a China is not a rare thing at our house). We didn’t look at Maryland. He didn’t want to apply to UM-College Park.
skibummer,

Why does he think CS is better way to get where he wants to go than

A) Electrical Engineering?

B) Mechanical Engineering?

He is losing the hardware fundamental side to pursue embedded engineering and robotic.

<<He wanted schools that provided acceptance to intended major as an applicant or didn’t limit or cap majors once accepted.>>

If he can maintain his CGPA of 3.0, VTech will let him pick his engineering major. If he cannot maintain his CGPA of 3.0, perhaps he is not good enough to stay at that major. So, why is this a problem?

Please note that every single CS and Engineering major has weed out class in the junior year. So, VTech is just making this explicit as opposed to implicit in other colleges.

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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

This is one person's opinion.

Computer Science has very little threshold of entry. What is the point of spending 4 years studying something that someone in other part of the world can learn it online? A person may want to pursue a career in computer science but an undergraduate degree in computer science may not be the best way to do it.

There is a higher threshold for engineering. You need the hardware/lab/resource to study engineering. It is not something you can do it online easily.

What happened if we move to quantum computing? Biological computing? Does the 4 years computer science gives the person a better foundation versus someone else in the world? Or, a 4 years engineering degree?

I have a BSEE and MSEE. I self studied 6 programming languages. When I work on wireless stuff, the computer science folks do not understand the physic side of the wireless transmission.

IMHO, an undergraduate degree should be chosen based on how far it can help you to go further. It should force you to learn stuff that you cannot learn on your own or self-study. Engineering does that. Computer science much less so.

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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by mcd1427 »

MMiroir wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:35 am According to College Scorecard, the following are median starting salaries for CS majors at both schools:

Purdue - $94,727
Pitt - $76,432

That is a pretty significant difference. Unless there is some other strong preference for Pitt, Purdue is the obvious choice based on outcomes alone.
Income is not the only factor that makes a choice obvious in education.....

Quality of life matters as well...
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:25 am OP,

This is one person's opinion.

Computer Science has very little threshold of entry. What is the point of spending 4 years studying something that someone in other part of the world can learn it online? A person may want to pursue a career in computer science but an undergraduate degree in computer science may not be the best way to do it.

There is a higher threshold for engineering. You need the hardware/lab/resource to study engineering. It is not something you can do it online easily.

What happened if we move to quantum computing? Biological computing? Does the 4 years computer science gives the person a better foundation versus someone else in the world? Or, a 4 years engineering degree?

I have a BSEE and MSEE. I self studied 6 programming languages. When I work on wireless stuff, the computer science folks do not understand the physic side of the wireless transmission.

IMHO, an undergraduate degree should be chosen based on how far it can help you to go further. It should force you to learn stuff that you cannot learn on your own or self-study. Engineering does that. Computer science much less so.

KlangFool
Self study that people generally perform cover a small fraction of what is covered in a CS degree. You are equating programming to computer science, they are not the same. Someone who has NOT studied CS has no clue what they missed, lacks fundamental theory behind the practice.

Think Eng Tech or trade school vs Engineering (where you learn lots of theory you would never learn on the job).

Personally I think people should pick what they enjoy.
I switched from Comp Engineering to CS. I did well in fresh/soph level eng coursework but found it mostly boring. I prefer math and algorithms to circuit diagrams. A CE degree would have been a waste for me.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:52 am
Self study that people generally perform cover a small fraction of what is covered in a CS degree. You are equating programming to computer science, they are not the same. Someone who has NOT studied CS has no clue what they missed, lacks fundamental theory behind the practice.
+1000

I had a successful career as a developer/programmer, with more than a rudimentary knowledge of the theory behind it. I was deemed/titled a Computer Scientist in the old days when nobody knew what it meant, and they enjoyed asking me where my lab coat was. Still, I made bank.

Having seen what my son studied recently (ie, 5-9 years ago) for his degrees in CS, I know that I would not have had a chance in those classes.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Badinvestor
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Badinvestor »

A while ago I saw the following quote attributed to Joe Biden: “Anybody who can go down 300-3,000 feet in a mine sure as hell can learn how to program as well . . . Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program for God’s sake.”

I'm not sure this is actually true, but it seems to be a widespread perception in the US.

In the old days, it seemed to be a further disadvantage of CS that careers ended around age forty unless you got yourself promoted into management. I don't know if that still holds. I did see recently on a newspaper website an unemployed guy who was quoted saying “being over 50 and in IT, you might as well retire if you are laid off…because no one will hire you.”

On the other hand, I can't really endorse Klangfool's EE recommendation. It seems that US deindustrialization means fewer EE jobs.
chinchin
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by chinchin »

Laid-off Twitter software engineer calls job market 'hot garbage': 'Maybe I should go be a firefighter'

https://news.yahoo.com/laid-off-twitter ... 01890.html

Over the past two weeks, a total of 40,000 employees have been laid off from Amazon, Microsoft, and Google, a nightmare come true for tech workers.

https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs ... =yahoo.com
not financial advice
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by MrNarwhal »

My academic background is electrical engineering. I've worked as a software developer but I'll be the first to admit that my theoretical background is lacking compared with a degree in computer science. (I'm a "regular" engineer again now.)

For this specific student, it does sound like there is a strong interest in embedded systems and that does indicate EE (or computer engineering). I'm not a fan of double majors but regardless of whether the major is CS or EE it would be a good idea to add some core courses in the other discipline. That could perhaps be easier at Pitt vs. Purdue which has a reputation as a pressure cooker (or boiler? :)) although I don't have personal experience with either.

I'd still err on the side of Purdue but Pitt is also a good option if the student is drawn towards the urban environment or if there's a significant cost difference.
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:08 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:52 am
Self study that people generally perform cover a small fraction of what is covered in a CS degree. You are equating programming to computer science, they are not the same. Someone who has NOT studied CS has no clue what they missed, lacks fundamental theory behind the practice.
+1000

I had a successful career as a developer/programmer, with more than a rudimentary knowledge of the theory behind it. I was deemed/titled a Computer Scientist in the old days when nobody knew what it meant, and they enjoyed asking me where my lab coat was. Still, I made bank.

Having seen what my son studied recently (ie, 5-9 years ago) for his degrees in CS, I know that I would not have had a chance in those classes.
Yeah, that's the same line of argument that says why go to MIT if you can take their classes online for free.

But those who say it haven't typically done that.

Computer science is basically math. Sure, anyone can learn math anywhere (that's the beauty of it), but most people don't.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

frose2 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:19 am A while ago I saw the following quote attributed to Joe Biden: “Anybody who can go down 300-3,000 feet in a mine sure as hell can learn how to program as well . . . Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program for God’s sake.”

I'm not sure this is actually true, but it seems to be a widespread perception in the US.
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" ~Isaac Asimov
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

...but then also, in all fairness, most computer programmers spend their careers producing boring boilerplate code. So if you wanna join them, then a sure way to do that is to be no better educated than they are.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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GRP
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
It’s already happening. This time is different because the technology is different.

The usage of ChatGPT is already more efficient and economical than hiring a junior dev for just about any development task. Soon it will also replace intermediate devs. And finally even senior devs. Only a handful of primary stakeholders and decision makers will be needed.

If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
twh
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by twh »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
It’s already happening. This time is different because the technology is different.

The usage of ChatGPT is already more efficient and economical than hiring a junior dev for just about any development task. Soon it will also replace intermediate devs. And finally even senior devs. Only a handful of primary stakeholders and decision makers will be needed.

If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
I distinctly remember a discussion I had in the 80's at a convention with someone who said software engineering was on it's way out. It may be true that more will continue to become automated and containerized, but someone still has to design those things.
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
Programmers have always been scared.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_a ... Programmer
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Denial is comforting.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:54 am I distinctly remember a discussion I had in the 80's at a convention with someone who said software engineering was on it's way out. It may be true that more will continue to become automated and containerized, but someone still has to design those things.
My older son, having published a paper at a top ACM venue as an undergrad, received a complimentary 1 year ACM membership that comes with a free subscription to the Communications of the ACM journal that is being mailed to our house as he was living on campus at the time.

This year's January issue published an opinion piece called "The End of Programming" predicting, of course, that this time it really is the end, as the AI is coming:

https://m-cacm.acm.org/magazines/2023/1 ... g/fulltext

When I mentioned to my son, who had just graduated at the time, that just like in my CS-studying youth people are predicting that computers will soon program themselves, he said: then I will be one of the few people who will be teaching them how to do that.

Particular skills may go in and out of style, but good education will always matter, because it teaches you how to think.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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GRP
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:54 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
It’s already happening. This time is different because the technology is different.

The usage of ChatGPT is already more efficient and economical than hiring a junior dev for just about any development task. Soon it will also replace intermediate devs. And finally even senior devs. Only a handful of primary stakeholders and decision makers will be needed.

If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
I distinctly remember a discussion I had in the 80's at a convention with someone who said software engineering was on it's way out. It may be true that more will continue to become automated and containerized, but someone still has to design those things.
There will be a human involved for the foreseeable future but it will be like the one farmer who now operates a machine that does the work of what formerly required 100 able bodied men.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:13 pm There will be a human involved for the foreseeable future but it will be like the one farmer who now operates a machine that does the work of what formerly required 100 able bodied men.
But that one farmer really makes hay.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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GRP
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:13 pm There will be a human involved for the foreseeable future but it will be like the one farmer who now operates a machine that does the work of what formerly required 100 able bodied men.
But that one farmer really makes hay.
Well said.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Vulcan
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:34 pm
Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:32 pm
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:13 pm There will be a human involved for the foreseeable future but it will be like the one farmer who now operates a machine that does the work of what formerly required 100 able bodied men.
But that one farmer really makes hay.
Well said.
Thanks! :beer

Also: see your signature :mrgreen:
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
CC1E
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by CC1E »

Definitely Purdue. Half the reason for blowing money on a private university is to put an impressive name on your resume.

As someone in the tech field hiring a recent grad I would definitely weigh Purdue’s name above Pitt for any engineering/tech degree. Though I wouldn’t hire just based on that. Practical experience, personality, and communication skills would be more important.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Vulcan »

CC1E wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:40 pm Definitely Purdue. Half the reason for blowing money on a private university is to put an impressive name on your resume.

As someone in the tech field hiring a recent grad I would definitely weigh Purdue’s name above Pitt for any engineering/tech degree.
Pitt is also public.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
It’s already happening. This time is different because the technology is different.

The usage of ChatGPT is already more efficient and economical than hiring a junior dev for just about any development task. Soon it will also replace intermediate devs. And finally even senior devs. Only a handful of primary stakeholders and decision makers will be needed.

If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
Long time dev turned manager (CTO, dev manager at various size companies mostly in financial services).

I think you are overestimating, and I am not in denial.
There have been countless attempts at automated code generation for well defined scenarios. Those scenarios are limited.

Recently retired, so nothing to be scares about.
But after studying AI academically, and evaluating/buying/using many code generation tools, and knowing the nuances of what is done in the real world, I don’t believe the worst case fears some stated. If anything if I was still managing projects, I would fear the non technical higher ups expecting me to cut people and get same projects done, because they heard what AI can do. Impact of new tech has always been overestimated in regards to hiring needs.

Also how do you have senior engineers down the line if one does not hire junior devs ? What happens when people like me retire, how will we be replaced when those senior staff are needed ?
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:10 pm
twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:54 am I distinctly remember a discussion I had in the 80's at a convention with someone who said software engineering was on it's way out. It may be true that more will continue to become automated and containerized, but someone still has to design those things.
My older son, having published a paper at a top ACM venue as an undergrad, received a complimentary 1 year ACM membership that comes with a free subscription to the Communications of the ACM journal that is being mailed to our house as he was living on campus at the time.

This year's January issue published an opinion piece called "The End of Programming" predicting, of course, that this time it really is the end, as the AI is coming:

https://m-cacm.acm.org/magazines/2023/1 ... g/fulltext

When I mentioned to my son, who had just graduated at the time, that just like in my CS-studying youth people are predicting that computers will soon program themselves, he said: then I will be one of the few people who will be teaching them how to do that.

Particular skills may go in and out of style, but good education will always matter, because it teaches you how to think.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Northern Flicker »

If the goal is to work in IT, I don't think it matters which program is chosen. If the goal is to get an R&D job with a tech company or enter a doctoral program, the broader opportunities for undergrads to get involved in CS research, including opportunities for summer research internships, would be a significant advantage at Purdue.

https://www.cs.purdue.edu/corporate/emp ... earch.html
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by beyou »

GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:13 pm
twh wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:54 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:48 am
beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 6:51 am
GRP wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:36 am Just to chime in on the future of computer science bit, with chatGPT being the elephant in the room.

Computer science has a bright future.

It’s software engineering that doesn’t.
They have been predicting the end of need for software devs for decades.
Bold prediction, it will NEVER EVER happen.
Let's revive this discussion in a 100 years.
It’s already happening. This time is different because the technology is different.

The usage of ChatGPT is already more efficient and economical than hiring a junior dev for just about any development task. Soon it will also replace intermediate devs. And finally even senior devs. Only a handful of primary stakeholders and decision makers will be needed.

If you’re a dev it’s okay to be scared, but it’s not okay to be in denial.

Oh, for the record, I am a dev.
I distinctly remember a discussion I had in the 80's at a convention with someone who said software engineering was on it's way out. It may be true that more will continue to become automated and containerized, but someone still has to design those things.
There will be a human involved for the foreseeable future but it will be like the one farmer who now operates a machine that does the work of what formerly required 100 able bodied men.
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by Watty »

The hype of AI doing away with software development jobs sort of reminds me about the hype about all the software development being outsourced to low cost countries like India that was popular maybe 10+ years ago,

Offshoring jobs does happen and it is sometimes even successful but there are also LOTS of failures. Companies also often found out that offshoring required a lot more upfront work to define a project before you could start it.

About 10 years ago my son switched majors to Computer Science when the offshoring of IT jobs was getting a lot of press and when I look into it even the most estimations were that a couple of percent of IT jobs were being offshored each year but the demand for IT people was growing at several times that rate so the overall impact of offshoring was that it slowed the net growth rate a little bit but it was still rapidly growing.

The BLS estimates that the number of software development jobs will grow by around 25% over ten years.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-in ... .htm#tab-1

Even if AI somehow takes over 5% of software development jobs during that time period the job growth would still be 20%
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

beyou wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:33 pm
Yes, because development is very similar to farming.
We just click keys and the code grows.
You are being sarcastic, but taken literally what you just wrote is actually 100% accurate. It may even be an understatement.

I just pressed a few keystrokes asking ChatGPT to write me a module for my geotagging project and it did it instantly. The code didn't "grow," it instantaneously appeared. I needed the code modified in a couple ways and it did that too. Why would my team spend the time and money to bring on a junior to do that level of work anymore?
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS [Computer Science]

Post by GRP »

Watty wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:24 pm The hype of AI doing away with software development jobs sort of reminds me about the hype about all the software development being outsourced to low cost countries like India that was popular maybe 10+ years ago,

Offshoring jobs does happen and it is sometimes even successful but there are also LOTS of failures. Companies also often found out that offshoring required a lot more upfront work to define a project before you could start it.

About 10 years ago my son switched majors to Computer Science when the offshoring of IT jobs was getting a lot of press and when I look into it even the most estimations were that a couple of percent of IT jobs were being offshored each year but the demand for IT people was growing at several times that rate so the overall impact of offshoring was that it slowed the net growth rate a little bit but it was still rapidly growing.

The BLS estimates that the number of software development jobs will grow by around 25% over ten years.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-in ... .htm#tab-1

Even if AI somehow takes over 5% of software development jobs during that time period the job growth would still be 20%
I personally view AI as being so disruptive that the current BLS reports are simply no longer relevant. They will probably reflect our new reality in a couple years down the line when things become truly apparent to the man on the street. Those projections and estimates for various jobs were for a world where this AI didn't exist.
Almost nothing turns out as expected.
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Re: College bound son for CS

Post by MMiroir »

skibummer wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:51 am
Vulcan wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:29 am
MathWizard wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:30 pm Did he apply to Carnegie Mellon? It's also in Pittsburgh, and I would rate it higher than Pitt.
No kidding? It's only a number one CS program in the world, tying MIT and Stanford. And almost as hard to get into.
He applied to CMU, but realistically he is unlikely to get in (regular decision hasn’t been announced yet). He is mid-1500s SAT, 4.0 UWGPA, 4.6 WGPA, Eagle Scout, good ECs (extra curriculars), and a lot of AP classes, good passion projects posted on GitHub, but CS (computer science) is crazy competive and we don’t have any hooks to the top 10 schools and he doesn’t check any of the first gen, low income or EDI (equity, diversity, inclusion) goals. He is a very competitive top 10-20 school CS applicant. Many of these schools have had 40-50,000 applicants this year. Acceptance rates are in the 3-6% or less and that is even in the top 10-20 schools tier. He is torn because he loves a big city, urban feel like Pitt, but it clearly seems Purdue is ranked above Pitt to a significant degree and “may” give him an edge in recruiting, opportunities, and networking. Tough call, hence the reach out to the Bogleheads community.
Our high school sends many kids to Purdue for engineering. Generally is is seen as a third tier choice for kids who could not get into the Ivies/MIT/CMU/CT, or more prestigious or more fun Big 10 flagships like UIUC, Michigan and Wisconsin or west coast flagships like UW, UCB and UCLA. That said, a mid 1500 SAT score would easily put him in the top quartile of students at Purdue.
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