Choosing colleges

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Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

BogBod wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:08 am
MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:10 pm
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Has your son every been through a Minnesota winter? Going from memory (30 years ago) one of the features that the University of Minnesota brochures advertised was their extensive tunnel system so that one could avoid the weather during winter.

SUNY looks to have easy access to New York City (and thus to Manhattan). For some folks this won't matter. For others this is a huge plus.

ASU is, well, warmer than either of the first two.

Which one fits your child best?
Stony Brook is well over an hour from NYC. It is a commuter school with an ugly campus and no school spirit. (Got my graduate degree there. Not unhappy I went, but would not go as an undergrad.)
Thanks for this piece of info.
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

ScubaHogg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:15 am If I was 18 I’d want to go to ASU hands down. If you don’t want them to go there I’d recommend not visiting, because I’m gonna guess if they visit all three they’d choose ASU in a heartbeat (just based on probabilities)
Very good advice!
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:17 am
BogBod wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:08 am
MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:10 pm
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Has your son every been through a Minnesota winter? Going from memory (30 years ago) one of the features that the University of Minnesota brochures advertised was their extensive tunnel system so that one could avoid the weather during winter.

SUNY looks to have easy access to New York City (and thus to Manhattan). For some folks this won't matter. For others this is a huge plus.

ASU is, well, warmer than either of the first two.

Which one fits your child best?
Stony Brook is well over an hour from NYC. It is a commuter school with an ugly campus and no school spirit. (Got my graduate degree there. Not unhappy I went, but would not go as an undergrad.)
This is important. I had similar experiences with a huge impersonal university programme in undergrad, a highly ranked CS programme but one which I did not fit into well - however the university was downtown.

Stoney Brook I can think of only one thing. The math department is exceptional. Because a former professor was Jim Simons, who went on to create the Renaissance hedge fund - arguably the world's most successful. Simons has made sure that Stoney Brook has a leading math department - as I understand it.

I do not know how that fits with the CS Department.

I would opt for Minnesota, despite the harsh climate:

- higher ranked programme
- good city
Points taken. Thanks!
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:23 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:02 pm
Gubshu wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:46 pm If money is not an issue, he should attend the one HE wants to attend.
Yea, he will be the decision maker. I just want to gather some pionts for him to consider.
If ASU is a "party school" then you need to have a grown up discussion with him about his ability to work in such an environment.

CS is a hard major. The best jobs are ferociously competitive. I graduated during a recession and wound up with a job (maintaining programs at an insurer) that I hated. It took me a long time to recover from that.

You have to be able to be focused, organised and work hard to get a CS degree. And given this downturn is, like 2000-03, likely to last a while, you need to have grades at least in the upper half of your class. CS will have some very smart kids, with a lot of experience of programming.

Will your son join a fraternity?

CS he will find "his tribe" quite likely - if he is the sort of high schooler I was (socially not very good, hard working, intelligent). CS majors tend to be the nerdiest of non-engineering undergrads. But they might spend the year playing Dungeons & Dragons. Or perhaps he has a sport that he is keen on?

Re Stoney Brook, other than the math department (and university level maths is a cut above anything he will have experienced in terms of difficulty), the comment above that it is a commuter school without much campus spirit would really put me off.
Yea, I think he should avoid party schools. He is not very social, interacting mostly with a few friends. I'd say he is focused, but only on whatever he likes. He likes running. Based on the feedbacks, I think I should avoid SB as well.
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

Jags4186 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:37 am IMO these are regional schools. Where does he intend to live after graduating? If he wants to be in the northeast he should consider SUNY, if he wants to be in the Midwest he should consider UMN, if he wants to be on the west coast he should consider ASU.
Take myself as an example: I studied in midwest, first job in east coast, company went down, moved to west coast.
Personally I feel ppl may not stick to where they study and move around, esp when they are young and less concerned about moving (sell home etc).
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

dknightd wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:31 am My advice would be let them decide.
Yes, I just want to pass him all the good advices from this forum and let him decide!
Jags4186
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Jags4186 »

t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:28 am
Jags4186 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:37 am IMO these are regional schools. Where does he intend to live after graduating? If he wants to be in the northeast he should consider SUNY, if he wants to be in the Midwest he should consider UMN, if he wants to be on the west coast he should consider ASU.
Take myself as an example: I studied in midwest, first job in east coast, company went down, moved to west coast.
Personally I feel ppl may not stick to where they study and move around, esp when they are young and less concerned about moving (sell home etc).
I'm not suggesting it can't be done or isn't done. I'm just suggesting that there are likely to be more alumni in each respective region. Alumni like to hire from their own IME. After the first job it doesn't really matter.
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

Jags4186 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:31 am
t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:28 am
Jags4186 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 7:37 am IMO these are regional schools. Where does he intend to live after graduating? If he wants to be in the northeast he should consider SUNY, if he wants to be in the Midwest he should consider UMN, if he wants to be on the west coast he should consider ASU.
Take myself as an example: I studied in midwest, first job in east coast, company went down, moved to west coast.
Personally I feel ppl may not stick to where they study and move around, esp when they are young and less concerned about moving (sell home etc).
I'm not suggesting it can't be done or isn't done. I'm just suggesting that there are likely to be more alumni in each respective region. Alumni like to hire from their own IME. After the first job it doesn't really matter.
Sure, thanks a lot for the suggestion.
Valuethinker
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:25 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:23 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:02 pm
Gubshu wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:46 pm If money is not an issue, he should attend the one HE wants to attend.
Yea, he will be the decision maker. I just want to gather some pionts for him to consider.
If ASU is a "party school" then you need to have a grown up discussion with him about his ability to work in such an environment.

CS is a hard major. The best jobs are ferociously competitive. I graduated during a recession and wound up with a job (maintaining programs at an insurer) that I hated. It took me a long time to recover from that.

You have to be able to be focused, organised and work hard to get a CS degree. And given this downturn is, like 2000-03, likely to last a while, you need to have grades at least in the upper half of your class. CS will have some very smart kids, with a lot of experience of programming.

Will your son join a fraternity?

CS he will find "his tribe" quite likely - if he is the sort of high schooler I was (socially not very good, hard working, intelligent). CS majors tend to be the nerdiest of non-engineering undergrads. But they might spend the year playing Dungeons & Dragons. Or perhaps he has a sport that he is keen on?

Re Stoney Brook, other than the math department (and university level maths is a cut above anything he will have experienced in terms of difficulty), the comment above that it is a commuter school without much campus spirit would really put me off.
Yea, I think he should avoid party schools. He is not very social, interacting mostly with a few friends. I'd say he is focused, but only on whatever he likes. He likes running. Based on the feedbacks, I think I should avoid SB as well.
Re SB (I can't spell it!) you'd have to check on the low down from the other poster here re the environment. It might even be worth contacting that poster directly and asking if he would engage with your son (doesn't have to be a phone call, could just be chat online). SB, as I say, has this thing in Math, because of Jim Simon (arguably the most successful hedge fund manager in the world). But I don't know about its CS.

There must be online sources about the student experience there.

How does ASU CS department rank against the others? (TBH for undergrad, it doesn't really matter. If you are not at CMU or MIT or Berkeley or Caltech, then a CS degree in a top 10 to 50 school is likely to be quite similar).

If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:25 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:23 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:02 pm
Gubshu wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:46 pm If money is not an issue, he should attend the one HE wants to attend.
Yea, he will be the decision maker. I just want to gather some pionts for him to consider.
If ASU is a "party school" then you need to have a grown up discussion with him about his ability to work in such an environment.

CS is a hard major. The best jobs are ferociously competitive. I graduated during a recession and wound up with a job (maintaining programs at an insurer) that I hated. It took me a long time to recover from that.

You have to be able to be focused, organised and work hard to get a CS degree. And given this downturn is, like 2000-03, likely to last a while, you need to have grades at least in the upper half of your class. CS will have some very smart kids, with a lot of experience of programming.

Will your son join a fraternity?

CS he will find "his tribe" quite likely - if he is the sort of high schooler I was (socially not very good, hard working, intelligent). CS majors tend to be the nerdiest of non-engineering undergrads. But they might spend the year playing Dungeons & Dragons. Or perhaps he has a sport that he is keen on?

Re Stoney Brook, other than the math department (and university level maths is a cut above anything he will have experienced in terms of difficulty), the comment above that it is a commuter school without much campus spirit would really put me off.
Yea, I think he should avoid party schools. He is not very social, interacting mostly with a few friends. I'd say he is focused, but only on whatever he likes. He likes running. Based on the feedbacks, I think I should avoid SB as well.
Re SB (I can't spell it!) you'd have to check on the low down from the other poster here re the environment. It might even be worth contacting that poster directly and asking if he would engage with your son (doesn't have to be a phone call, could just be chat online). SB, as I say, has this thing in Math, because of Jim Simon (arguably the most successful hedge fund manager in the world). But I don't know about its CS.

There must be online sources about the student experience there.

How does ASU CS department rank against the others? (TBH for undergrad, it doesn't really matter. If you are not at CMU or MIT or Berkeley or Caltech, then a CS degree in a top 10 to 50 school is likely to be quite similar).

If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
According to US News CS undergraduate ranking, ASU and SB both 46 while UMN 37 so sort of similar.
ncbill
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Location: Western NC

Re: Choosing colleges

Post by ncbill »

Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:33 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:09 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:05 pm
Watty wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:53 pm

Be sure to Google "ASU graduation rate" when considering the parties.
Ouch. 67%
My recollection is thats a fairly typical 6 year graduation rate for US universities.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So why is this so low? I don’t know. One school of thought is that lots of kids don’t finish because school is too expensive. I.e. they run out of money. So if that’s a concern for anybody, they should really focus on value.

And if you have infinite money, you really don’t need to worry about graduation rates, because if your kid puts in the work, they will graduate.
Maybe also being in one of the biggest metro areas in the US? People come and go without finishing.
The data doesn't support that assertion. The schools with the highest graduation rates tend to be the best schools most of which have very high price tags.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... -grad-rate
Note the zero-cost options on that list.

One of which one of my kids chose.
MMiroir
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by MMiroir »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:30 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:27 pm Was he admitted to Barrett honors college at ASU? That could be a good option if so.

Otherwise I’d just choose the one he likes the best based on interests, location, fit. Minnesota has a good reputation in CS but the other two are fine too.
We did not know and passed the deadline for Barrett. We will try to get in, though no guarantee.
If my kid was in Barrett, I would suggest ASU in a heartbeat out of those three. Honors dorms for four years, special honors classes and sections, and honors only job fairs all make ASU Barrett superior to a generic state flagship. Without Barrett, I would probably go with the lower cost option closer to home.
stoptothink
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by stoptothink »

ncbill wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:01 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:33 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:09 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:05 pm

Ouch. 67%
My recollection is thats a fairly typical 6 year graduation rate for US universities.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So why is this so low? I don’t know. One school of thought is that lots of kids don’t finish because school is too expensive. I.e. they run out of money. So if that’s a concern for anybody, they should really focus on value.

And if you have infinite money, you really don’t need to worry about graduation rates, because if your kid puts in the work, they will graduate.
Maybe also being in one of the biggest metro areas in the US? People come and go without finishing.
The data doesn't support that assertion. The schools with the highest graduation rates tend to be the best schools most of which have very high price tags.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... -grad-rate
Note the zero-cost options on that list.

One of which one of my kids chose.
The "best" schools, which are consequently usually more expensive, tend to have the highest grad rates for a whole host of reasons; the very obvious one being they have the most inherently intelligent, driven, and committed student body. For the average student at the average school, the most likely reasons they may not graduate (run out of money, poor performance, difficulty of commuting to school, getting involved in negative "extracurricular" activities) are likely far less of a concern for a student at elite schools. Also, running out of money generally isn't a concern at the elite schools because those who come from families with less money usually are getting need-based aid.

It doesn't shock anybody that having the best input usually leads to highest output; how much the actual school influences this is a debate that will never end.
Journeyman510
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Journeyman510 »

ncbill wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:01 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:33 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:09 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:05 pm

Ouch. 67%
My recollection is thats a fairly typical 6 year graduation rate for US universities.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So why is this so low? I don’t know. One school of thought is that lots of kids don’t finish because school is too expensive. I.e. they run out of money. So if that’s a concern for anybody, they should really focus on value.

And if you have infinite money, you really don’t need to worry about graduation rates, because if your kid puts in the work, they will graduate.
Maybe also being in one of the biggest metro areas in the US? People come and go without finishing.
The data doesn't support that assertion. The schools with the highest graduation rates tend to be the best schools most of which have very high price tags.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... -grad-rate
Note the zero-cost options on that list.

One of which one of my kids chose.
Those are the exceptions; the overall trend is clear. And I'd consider any service academy to be among the best schools in the country,
thedaybeforetoday
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Got a 4th/5th option?
"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them." R. Dangerfield
thedaybeforetoday
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

ncbill wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:01 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:33 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:09 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:05 pm

Ouch. 67%
My recollection is thats a fairly typical 6 year graduation rate for US universities.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So why is this so low? I don’t know. One school of thought is that lots of kids don’t finish because school is too expensive. I.e. they run out of money. So if that’s a concern for anybody, they should really focus on value.

And if you have infinite money, you really don’t need to worry about graduation rates, because if your kid puts in the work, they will graduate.
Maybe also being in one of the biggest metro areas in the US? People come and go without finishing.
The data doesn't support that assertion. The schools with the highest graduation rates tend to be the best schools most of which have very high price tags.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... -grad-rate
Note the zero-cost options on that list.

One of which one of my kids chose.
You mean zero cost options from a financial sense.
Service academies have great reputations, but they aren't free in the larger sense of the word.
Congrats to your kid.
"When I was a kid my parents moved a lot, but I always found them." R. Dangerfield
GreendaleCC
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by GreendaleCC »

ncbill wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:01 am
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 pm
runner3081 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:33 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:09 pm
Journeyman510 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:05 pm

Ouch. 67%
My recollection is thats a fairly typical 6 year graduation rate for US universities.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

So why is this so low? I don’t know. One school of thought is that lots of kids don’t finish because school is too expensive. I.e. they run out of money. So if that’s a concern for anybody, they should really focus on value.

And if you have infinite money, you really don’t need to worry about graduation rates, because if your kid puts in the work, they will graduate.
Maybe also being in one of the biggest metro areas in the US? People come and go without finishing.
The data doesn't support that assertion. The schools with the highest graduation rates tend to be the best schools most of which have very high price tags.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ra ... -grad-rate
Note the zero-cost options on that list.

One of which one of my kids chose.
Not everyone is meant to be a military officer.
Glockenspiel
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Glockenspiel »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Not that different from the Northeast. Mid 70s in September and May, 60 in October and April, mid 40s in November and March, upper 20s in December and February, low 20s in January, for high temperatures.
smitcat
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by smitcat »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:15 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Not that different from the Northeast. Mid 70s in September and May, 60 in October and April, mid 40s in November and March, upper 20s in December and February, low 20s in January, for high temperatures.
I you are comparing Minneapolis with Long Island NY the summer months are fairly the same.
But the winter months average 15 degrees colder in Minn for both the highs and lows - 15 less is a whole lot colder for me anyway.
idc
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by idc »

If your kid is interested in pursuing computer science and is able to graduate in the field, I would recommend looking up the number of graduates from each school on LinkedIn who are currently working at reputable tech companies. This can help determine the likelihood of securing internships, which are the best way to secure a job in the field. Graduation rates, party culture, and layoffs are less important factors to consider.

It's worth noting that graduation rates don't account for individual socioeconomic backgrounds or majors, which can have a significant impact. Additionally, while parties are present at any school, personal accountability is key. As the tech industry is constantly evolving, it's impossible to predict what will happen in two years when your kid will start looking for internships. However, it's unlikely that tech companies will stop offering internships as they are a cost-effective way to recruit and train new employees.

Based on proximity to the West Coast and the strong presence of companies like Intel, Arizona could be a good option. I've personally met many talented engineers from Arizona State University, though I can't speak to the other schools.
Topic Author
t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

UC Merced CS admission comes. How is it compared with UMn, SUNY SB and ASU?
Journeyman510
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Journeyman510 »

t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:32 pm UC Merced CS admission comes. How is it compared with UMn, SUNY SB and ASU?
UC Merced is a new school that is still struggling to establish itself. It is perceived as the UC that nobody really wants to go to. This perception may change over time but it probably won't over the next few years.
Journeyman510
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Journeyman510 »

idc wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:27 pm If your kid is interested in pursuing computer science and is able to graduate in the field, I would recommend looking up the number of graduates from each school on LinkedIn who are currently working at reputable tech companies. This can help determine the likelihood of securing internships, which are the best way to secure a job in the field. Graduation rates, party culture, and layoffs are less important factors to consider.

It's worth noting that graduation rates don't account for individual socioeconomic backgrounds or majors, which can have a significant impact. Additionally, while parties are present at any school, personal accountability is key. As the tech industry is constantly evolving, it's impossible to predict what will happen in two years when your kid will start looking for internships. However, it's unlikely that tech companies will stop offering internships as they are a cost-effective way to recruit and train new employees.

Based on proximity to the West Coast and the strong presence of companies like Intel, Arizona could be a good option. I've personally met many talented engineers from Arizona State University, though I can't speak to the other schools.
Presumably OPs child is majoring in CS because they are interested in software. Intel's Arizona facilities are primarily focused on semiconductors.
Starfish
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Starfish »

ScubaHogg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:17 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:40 pm
MarkRoulo wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 5:10 pm
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Has your son every been through a Minnesota winter? Going from memory (30 years ago) one of the features that the University of Minnesota brochures advertised was their extensive tunnel system so that one could avoid the weather during winter.

SUNY looks to have easy access to New York City (and thus to Manhattan). For some folks this won't matter. For others this is a huge plus.

ASU is, well, warmer than either of the first two.

Which one fits your child best?
I feel cold is better tolerated than hot weather.
Except it won’t really be hot during the school year. It’ll be lovely and sunny

I have to underline that I find the entire weather discussion completely ridiculous. Weather is important for old people, not for students. Who would not consider Imperial College, ETH, Leuven, Delft because of weather? And how do you define good weather?

That being said, I visited Phoenix many times, always in fall ( including at Thanksgiving) and spring. To me is one of the most depressing places. Everything brown, no real vegetation, no outdoors at least half of the year. Even the water in the pool is hot in September. Sure, if you drive 2h you see beautiful nature and snow, but that's pretty far.
SUNY SB (USB now) has the issue that is close to NY and a lot of students come from the city and go back every weekend. I would not want to go there for undergrad. For these reasons and proximity to West Coast ASU might be a better option, but not for the weather.
Party school is a plus, it's a big part of the experience.
I don't know anything about UMN.
I would not consider UC Merced.
idc
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by idc »

Journeyman510 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:03 pm
idc wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:27 pm If your kid is interested in pursuing computer science and is able to graduate in the field, I would recommend looking up the number of graduates from each school on LinkedIn who are currently working at reputable tech companies. This can help determine the likelihood of securing internships, which are the best way to secure a job in the field. Graduation rates, party culture, and layoffs are less important factors to consider.

It's worth noting that graduation rates don't account for individual socioeconomic backgrounds or majors, which can have a significant impact. Additionally, while parties are present at any school, personal accountability is key. As the tech industry is constantly evolving, it's impossible to predict what will happen in two years when your kid will start looking for internships. However, it's unlikely that tech companies will stop offering internships as they are a cost-effective way to recruit and train new employees.

Based on proximity to the West Coast and the strong presence of companies like Intel, Arizona could be a good option. I've personally met many talented engineers from Arizona State University, though I can't speak to the other schools.
Presumably OPs child is majoring in CS because they are interested in software. Intel's Arizona facilities are primarily focused on semiconductors.
There are tons and tons of software engineers working at Intel :)
There's a very blurred line between the two these days, especially for large companies like Intel, Apple, Microsoft, Google.

I personally worked with many Intel software people from Phoenix (while being employed by another large company).
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by ScubaHogg »

Starfish wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:32 pm Weather is important for old people, not for students.
Of course weather is important to some students. I personally would never have gone to college way, way up north (barring a unique opportunity) cause I wouldn’t have wanted to freeze all winter. If you don’t think weather is important to 20 year olds just ask yourself where they go on Spring Break…

I personally enjoy the desert in the cooler months. And if you want outdoor opportunities Oct-Apr there is going to be a ton more than somewhere cold and snowy way up north. I like green too much to permanently live in the desert, but for the four winters of college? Absolutely
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by ScubaHogg »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:15 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Not that different from the Northeast. Mid 70s in September and May, 60 in October and April, mid 40s in November and March, upper 20s in December and February, low 20s in January, for high temperatures.
Not sure what you mean by the northeast, but I’ll use Boston as a proxy

Average high in Boston in Jan is 37. Average for Minneapolis is 25.

I’d say a 12 degree average temp difference is pretty different. Now a person might not care, but it’s definitely different
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by fourwaystreet »

Did your son spend a day at all three of these schools? Impressions matter a great deal.
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t24b350
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by t24b350 »

fourwaystreet wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:18 pm Did your son spend a day at all three of these schools? Impressions matter a great deal.
Not yet but plan to.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Starfish »

ScubaHogg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:51 pm
Starfish wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:32 pm Weather is important for old people, not for students.
Of course weather is important to some students. I personally would never have gone to college way, way up north (barring a unique opportunity) cause I wouldn’t have wanted to freeze all winter. If you don’t think weather is important to 20 year olds just ask yourself where they go on Spring Break…

I personally enjoy the desert in the cooler months. And if you want outdoor opportunities Oct-Apr there is going to be a ton more than somewhere cold and snowy way up north. I like green too much to permanently live in the desert, but for the four winters of college? Absolutely

Spring break has value exactly because is in spring: contrast with winter. It's why going on vacation in Hawaii is great but is very different if you live there. Or why vacation is much better than retirement.
For example you see a lot more partying in the summer in temperate countries, and much less night life in tropical countries.
Also temperatures don't tell much. 0 degrees dry and sunny with no wind are much better than 40 degrees with pouring rain and wind. Same for heat, 100F dry are better that 80F humid.
For me I find the east cost weather, while temperate in temperature, pretty unpleasant due to rain in the winter and humidity in the summer. But Arizona is just hell most of the year.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by ScubaHogg »

Starfish wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:51 pm
ScubaHogg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:51 pm
Starfish wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:32 pm Weather is important for old people, not for students.
Of course weather is important to some students. I personally would never have gone to college way, way up north (barring a unique opportunity) cause I wouldn’t have wanted to freeze all winter. If you don’t think weather is important to 20 year olds just ask yourself where they go on Spring Break…

I personally enjoy the desert in the cooler months. And if you want outdoor opportunities Oct-Apr there is going to be a ton more than somewhere cold and snowy way up north. I like green too much to permanently live in the desert, but for the four winters of college? Absolutely

Spring break has value exactly because is in spring: contrast with winter. It's why going on vacation in Hawaii is great but is very different if you live there. Or why vacation is much better than retirement.
For example you see a lot more partying in the summer in temperate countries, and much less night life in tropical countries.
Also temperatures don't tell much. 0 degrees dry and sunny with no wind are much better than 40 degrees with pouring rain and wind. Same for heat, 100F dry are better that 80F humid.
For me I find the east cost weather, while temperate in temperature, pretty unpleasant due to rain in the winter and humidity in the summer. But Arizona is just hell most of the year.
The average high in phoenix in November is 76. In April it’s 86 (with a low of 61). So there is most the school year. Not bad imho
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Watty »

t24b350 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:46 am According to US News CS undergraduate ranking, ASU and SB both 46 while UMN 37 so sort of similar.
With undergraduate STEM degrees once you get past the top 5 or 10 the colleges ranking are not as important as other majors as long as a college has an average or above average rating.

The difference between 46 and 37 is likely with the margin of error so those rankings are likely not useful at all and they all seem to have credible CS programs.

You may be overthinking this. It isn't like your kid is looking at MIT or some marginal college. It seems to really come down to which one would be the best fit for your kid and your budget.

Don't underestimate the importance of the distance either. Traveling during Christmas and Thanksgiving is expensive and painful. If he is a long way away then he will likely also miss a lot of life events.

There is no telling where he will end up after he graduates but the odds are favorable that he could end up near where the college is at because his first job is there or he meets a future spouse who is from that part of the country.

It is a wild guess but I would suspect that there is better than even odds that he will settle down in the region of the country where he goes to college

That might not seems super important now but years from now when there are grandkids or if you are in a nursing home that could be a big deal especially if he is your only kid. When you retire you might even want to move near him. I would hate to think of moving to Minnesota or NYC as a retirement destination. That would favor Arizona.

There are lots of unknowns and there is no telling where he will end up after college but looking at your old posts suggest that you might be in a VHCOL part of California and will likely move when you retire in a few years.

It is a crapshoot but if the stars align just right then ten years from now you could be retired in Arizona living relatively close to your adult kid and maybe his family.

If you are in California and he goes to school in Arizona then coming home for holidays will be a lot easier.

I have moved around to several parts of the country. After college at a state university here my son got his first job in the same city and eventually ended up buying a house that is about ten minutes from us which works out really nice since we frequently get to see our two grandkids. The main reason that he settled down here is that is wife is also from the area and has extended family here so she would not want to live in a different part of the country.

I relocated here for a job when my kid was in middle school and we had no intention of staying here after I retired. Once my son settled down here the idea of moving to some retirement destination was not longer appealing. It is not what we had planned but it seems to be working out very well.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Northern Flicker »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Purely on academics for CS:

1. Stony Brook
2. Minnesota
3. Arizona State
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Bfwolf »

I would not consider Merced. It is the ugly stepchild of the UC system. I also wouldn't consider Stony Brook for all the reasons mentioned upthread.

ASU and Minnesota are both reasonable choices. Minnesota is a marginally better school academically. The weather is a HUGE factor though. I personally would not want to deal with 4 Minnesota winters when I could be in sunny Arizona. Minnesota winters are some of the most brutal in the nation. Given kids are out of school in the Summer, Arizona's awful Summer heat isn't a factor. ASU being cheaper doesn't hurt either. $18K a year is nothing to sneeze at. Would be great if he could get into the honors college.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by 8301 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:09 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Purely on academics for CS:

1. Stony Brook
2. Minnesota
3. Arizona State
This may not matter much to engineering or CS. The famed Brookhaven National Lab. is near Stony Brook and there may be a special relationship between them. A notable theoretical physicist C.N. Yang, a 1957 Nobel Laureate for his ground shattering work on parity violation (broken parity symmetry) with T.D. Lee was hired from IAS, Princeton University to Stony Brook a while ago.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by gips »

my nephew graduated stonybrook with a math and physics degree, he received an excellent education however he was taken aback that 50 per cent of student population were commuters. personally, i’d choose the big ten school, he’ll receive an excellent education, school spirit will be palpable and I think it will be a fantastic experience. again, personally, i’d avoid stonybrook, seemed fairly miserable when we visited our nephew, honestly, i don’t think he should have applied there.

congrats to him on the admissions and good luck!

ps i should add that way, way back in the day I was admitted to stonybrook for cs and after visiting for an hour, decided I’d rather go just about anywhere else.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by jemaz »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:53 pm
chinchin wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:44 pm I would choose ASU just for the weather.
Personally, too hot :-).
Not during the school year.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:15 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Not that different from the Northeast. Mid 70s in September and May, 60 in October and April, mid 40s in November and March, upper 20s in December and February, low 20s in January, for high temperatures.
Winnipeg in winter? Minneapolis? I look on the weather maps and see minus 20 (it doesn't really matter whether that's Centigrade or Fahrenheit ;-)).

My apologies if I am way out of touch - I have never lived there. But I see *cold*? Also of course the latitude is relatively high.

You'd get the wind off the Great Lakes, too, in winter. That really is cold--in your bones.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

8301 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:44 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:09 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
Purely on academics for CS:

1. Stony Brook
2. Minnesota
3. Arizona State
This may not matter much to engineering or CS. The famed Brookhaven National Lab. is near Stony Brook and there may be a special relationship between them. A notable theoretical physicist C.N. Yang, a 1957 Nobel Laureate for his ground shattering work on parity violation (broken parity symmetry) with T.D. Lee was hired from IAS, Princeton University to Stony Brook a while ago.
I think it's actually also the math department?

Jim Simons, a math professor at SB, founded Renaissance Technologies. Arguably the world's most successful hedge fund. He has recruited PhDs from SB, and he has supported that math department financially. (Simons is a billionaire many times over).

(I think it's like the Pittsburgh U Philosophy Department. It's this total outlier - not a highly ranked university, but with an exceptional department).

What I don't know is if there is any spillover to the CS department? Renaissance has hired CS PhDs, particularly in the field of voice recognition. But I don't know if from SB or if they have financially supported that department?
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

ScubaHogg wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:59 pm
Glockenspiel wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:15 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:38 am
If he is used to the Upper Midwest climate, then Minnesota might be a good fit. If not, that's a potential issue - winter in that part of the world has to be experienced to be understood.
Not that different from the Northeast. Mid 70s in September and May, 60 in October and April, mid 40s in November and March, upper 20s in December and February, low 20s in January, for high temperatures.
Not sure what you mean by the northeast, but I’ll use Boston as a proxy

Average high in Boston in Jan is 37. Average for Minneapolis is 25.

I’d say a 12 degree average temp difference is pretty different. Now a person might not care, but it’s definitely different
Boston is brutal in winter because of the very thing which moderates the temperature. The North Atlantic. It gives you a "damp cold" and it gives you ice storms, blizzards etc.

I have heard Upper Midwest described as a "nice dry cold". Well. Maybe. But 25 + windchill is brutal, anywhere. Those spells of minus (in degrees F) in particular.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

Starfish wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:32 pm

I have to underline that I find the entire weather discussion completely ridiculous. Weather is important for old people, not for students. Who would not consider Imperial College, ETH, Leuven, Delft because of weather? And how do you define good weather?
It can affect your mood as a student & student activities.

The weather in London is just not comparable to anything in North America other than the Pacific NW. Seldom stays below 0C (32F) for any length of time. Doesn't rain half as much as people think (because they've been to Manchester, where it really does rain a lot?). 51 degrees N latitude so very short winter days and can be grey and cloudy for weeks at a time. Over 100F this summer so we are not reliably cool any more (if that trend continues).

ETH (Zurich) is probably pretty similar to Denver in climate? Leuven and Delft comparable to US North East. I'd send my kid to ETH because they love skiing (as well as excellent academics). Netherlands to see how a densely populated, advanced country can get things much more "right" than others like the UK (bicycle as a predominant form of commuting, public transport & amenities, etc).
That being said, I visited Phoenix many times, always in fall ( including at Thanksgiving) and spring. To me is one of the most depressing places. Everything brown, no real vegetation, no outdoors at least half of the year. Even the water in the pool is hot in September. Sure, if you drive 2h you see beautiful nature and snow, but that's pretty far.
SUNY SB (USB now) has the issue that is close to NY and a lot of students come from the city and go back every weekend. I would not want to go there for undergrad. For these reasons and proximity to West Coast ASU might be a better option, but not for the weather.
Party school is a plus, it's a big part of the experience.
I don't know anything about UMN.
I would not consider UC Merced.
I agree it's about the student environment and USB gets marked down for exactly that reason. I went to a commuter school for undergrad and I don't recommend it.

I think academically they are all pretty much level pegged. The material taught will be the same (in undergrad) at each of them.

So it's really about "fit" between Minnesota and U Arizona. "Party school" can be the worst place for a certain sort of kid. Also I have heard generally good things about Minneapolis-St Paul area. But if the campus is a commuter one, that overwrites that.

Arizona is definitely becoming a nexus of the semiconductor industry & other types of companies fleeing California. But that's more of an engineering game than a CS one? Even if you hire engineers to essentially do programming, they are usually engineers not CS grads?

SB I imagine is not a bad place to get a job in computing in the NYC financial services industry. However there will be fierce competition for the prize jobs from grads of MIT, CMU etc.

(I have reservations about the long run environmental sustainability of Phoenix. But if AZ gave up all agriculture, they probably have enough water (for the time being) to meet their needs for residential & commercial -- and I realise there are huge institutional, political and legal obstacles to doing that).
Last edited by Valuethinker on Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Arabesque »

One thing to know about Stony Brook: New York State had for many years an egalitarian education system. New York had 64 campuses, many of them community colleges, how on similar funding models. The goal was to have affordable education within range of all citizens.

Last year they designated two campuses as flagships. Stony Brook was one of them. This means greater resources and attention to Stony Brook students.

https://news.stonybrook.edu/university/ ... e-address/
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by cableguy »

I'm very familiar with Stony Brook. Outstanding school. The famous Hedge Fund founder and operator James Simons was head of the math department before starting his fund a few miles from the campus. Its not a great school as far as "college experience". It can be a ghost town on nights and weekends. As others have said, in many ways still a commuter school. I would say Minnesota. ASU is a good choice but CS and Math kids don't need palm trees and other distractions that come with that LOL...
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Valuethinker »

Arabesque wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:22 am One thing to know about Stony Brook: New York State had for many years an egalitarian education system. New York had 64 campuses, many of them community colleges, how on similar funding models. The goal was to have affordable education within range of all citizens.

Last year they designated two campuses as flagships. Stony Brook was one of them. This means greater resources and attention to Stony Brook students.

https://news.stonybrook.edu/university/ ... e-address/
It has to be said that that looks good, and a SB student might benefit from improving prestige of the university. Also perhaps get in on the ground floor at the AI lab etc.

It's just a commuter school. I really didn't enjoy that part of my undergrad experience e.g. that at weekends the campus was totally dead, etc.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by homebuyer6426 »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:59 pm Yes, that's right. I attended another big ten school. Only 60-70% stick with CIS (which is how CS was called then) to the end.
CS and CIS are two different degrees. Both were offered at my school. CS is the older degree and has more mathematics and theory. CIS has more applied science. Before the CS degree was created, most computer scientists were just getting degrees in mathematics.

Anyway, I have a CS degree, I did the first 2 years at a local community college and the last 2 at an affordable state school. I have no regrets and going for the low cost option did not hold me back in my career. I actually tried 1 semester of CIS before switching my major as it was not technical enough to be interesting to me. I got my degree in 2011. The school I went to was similar to Stony Brook.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by valleyrock »

+1 Visit each school. Spend some time. Look around. Talk to people. Take a few days at each one if possible.

+1 Colder is easier than hotter because you can always layer up, but there's a limit on how far you can layer down (i.e., birthday suit). But that's just me.

--Side opinion: Particularly where a state school is involved, consider going where the people running things value education, which means, among other things, that they are prepared to put in the necessary resources, and value knowledge and expertise.

--Side observation from experience: I interviewed at ASU a while back. They have lots of smart, hard-working faculty doing very good work. So you can get a good education there. On the other hand, it was pointed out (this was years ago, but probably still holds) that fully 25% of the undergraduates were business majors. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

--Side observation from experience 2: Check out CS job placement data at the schools. Also the numbers and percentages going on to graduate achools, and where. Best to begin with the knowledge that one's education doesn't necessarily stop with a BS.

I'd personally choose Minnesota, but my great great grandpappy came from Norway.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by valleyrock »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:39 am
t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:59 pm Yes, that's right. I attended another big ten school. Only 60-70% stick with CIS (which is how CS was called then) to the end.
CS and CIS are two different degrees. Both were offered at my school. CS is the older degree and has more mathematics and theory. CIS has more applied science. Before the CS degree was created, most computer scientists were just getting degrees in mathematics.

Anyway, I have a CS degree, I did the first 2 years at a local community college and the last 2 at an affordable state school. I have no regrets and going for the low cost option did not hold me back in my career. I actually tried 1 semester of CIS before switching my major as it was not technical enough to be interesting to me. I got my degree in 2011. The school I went to was similar to Stony Brook.
Interesting distinction. Originally, CS degrees were solely on the master's level, and these programs accepted people from a wide variety of backgrounds, including humanties and social science. Now there are BS degrees in data science and information science, as well. One interesting way to examine all degree programs is to look at the backgrounds of the faculty running and teaching in the program. My preference is usually to go with the most fundamental degree. That makes learning new stuff easier down the road. But that's not necessarily the best option for everyone, particularly when a person knows exactly where they're heading, job and career-wise. And not everyone can handle some of the hard-core courses, but could still do very well getting training in various computer areas, where there are jobs out there.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Boston Terrier Fan »

t24b350 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 3:39 pm My son gets admissions from U. Minnesota (Twin Cities), SUNY Stony Brook and Arizona State, all in Computer Science.
Cost aside, which one is the best to attend?
I was a phd student at SUNY Stonybrook and had a great experience there. It is a beautiful area, there are many strong programs and opportunities to attend really interesting presentations in addition to the regular coursework. It is close enough to NYC that for a while I got a job Citibank in NYC doing data analysis two days a week (to pay my rent). It is a big state school and you get back what you put into it. I would recommend visiting the schools, sitting in on classes (if you can) and seeing which is the best fit.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by homebuyer6426 »

Also wanted to add that my first 2 years at a community college the class-size difference was huge. I had some classes which had only 4 people which were great because you had time to ask all the questions you wanted. Compared to 100 person classes at the university.
valleyrock wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:53 am My preference is usually to go with the most fundamental degree. That makes learning new stuff easier down the road. But that's not necessarily the best option for everyone, particularly when a person knows exactly where they're heading, job and career-wise. And not everyone can handle some of the hard-core courses, but could still do very well getting training in various computer areas, where there are jobs out there.
I agree. I think CIS is probably the more practical and useful degree as far as working a job in the field goes. It just started way too slow and basic for me, because I already knew some programming and had been using computers from a young age. But the math parts of a CS degree make a lot of students drop who aren't prepared for that.
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Re: Choosing colleges

Post by Nowizard »

Definitely, visit both and discuss why he chooses. Some might choose for weather, some for fraternity, some from distance from home, some on whether friends were attending, some for athletics, some for general attractiveness of opposite sex, some for the program content, etc. Investigate not only the choice but the background for it/them. Pros and cons lists. That includes cost even if it is not a family issue.

Tim
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