Vanguard vs Schwab

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Target2019
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Target2019 »

jbogler wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:25 am Thank you for all the great feedback. I will sum it up as "it depends". Depends on what your needs are, as there are quite a number of factors. I will digest all this information and make a decision
Most recommend what they use. That's human nature. What I've observed over a very long time, with my own behavior and others, is that humans tend to look past the data that doesn't support their choice.

So I can only tell you about my experience. I've been with Vanguard from 1982, and with Schwab since 2017. From 1982 through 2015, I/we did not need anything beyond a few low-cost funds. I may have used Vanguard CS a few times during that entire time. In late 2016 we had to set up a brokerage to receive gifted stock. That was a breeze at Schwab. I met Schwab employees at a local branch, and went there to deposit checks every once in a blue moon.

As I began to look closely at the web interfaces, I noticed a definite lack of modernization at Vanguard. Then came customer service problems with the conversion to brokerage accounts. I tried to look past the Vanguard blemishes, but eventually concluded that account consolidation would be done at Schwab.

I've consolidated two work plans to a rollover IRA at Schwab. The personal service I received from the branch (just send an email), and also online, exceeds my calls to anonymous Vanguard customer support.

So, as you say, it depends. There are short-comings with any company, and the bigger they are, the less they'll listen to you. So talkk to folks at Vanguard, Fidelity, and Schwab. Be aware there are differences, and it's great to have a choice.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by hudson »

ruralavalon wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:13 am In my opinion Vanguard, Fidelity and Schwab are all good choices. It's largely a matter of personal preference.
I agree!
I use Fidelity and Vanguard currently; I used Schwab years ago.
I tried Fidelity to learn their ropes and to try their 2% Visa. Schwab held my 401K when I was employed.
None of the 3 bothered me and I appreciated that.
I might call for help once every 5 or so years or maybe not. Customer service isn't a big priority for me.

Bottom Line:
I like Vanguard because they made everybody else change for the better.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Northern Flicker »

Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
egri
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by egri »

I use Vanguard, Schwab and Fidelity. I only got Fidelity because they were running the 'deposit $50, get $100' promotion, and later to deposit my rewards from their Visa. If I could do it over, I wouldn't have gone with Vanguard, owing to their outdated UI and poor customer service, but it isn't enough of an inconvenience yet for me to move things now. My favorite of the three is Schwab, but as someone else said, it's Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge.
hudson
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by hudson »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Thanks! I didn't know.
Lastrun
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Lastrun »

hudson wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:17 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Thanks! I didn't know.
Yep, low costs and great service for the individual investor was and remains their business model. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zTihOKwNOcA
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galawdawg
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by galawdawg »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Indeed! Here's a bit of investor history...

Look back to the day Jack Bogle started Vanguard, which was a mutual fund company1, to see who started the brokerage commission price wars. It was May 1, 1975, the day the SEC deregulated stock trading commissions. When many other brokerages raised their commissions as a result, Schwab cut commissions and opened the first discount brokerage. Where Jack was the low-cost leader for mutual fund investors, Charles Schwab was the low-cost leader for stock investors. The race to lower costs and commissions has gone back and forth ever since!

So while I give Jack credit for many investing achievements, Chuck Schwab is the one who gets the credit for starting the brokerage commission war....way back in 1975!

And another plus for Schwab is that it is a publicly-traded company. While there are a few pro-Vanguard Bogleheads who point to that as though it is a dirty word, remember that most of us are investors in....publicly-traded companies. So when Schwab does well, we who invest in any (or nearly any) US stock index fund also do well! Furthermore, as a publicly-traded company, Schwab provides the transparency and accountability that are lacking at Vanguard and Fidelity. All positives as far as I'm concerned. :beer



1Vanguard didn't form a brokerage until 1983
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ruralavalon
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by ruralavalon »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Wasn't State Street (SSgA) the pioneer for exchange traded funds (ETFs)?
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Northern Flicker »

ruralavalon wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:06 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Wasn't State Street (SSgA) the pioneer for exchange traded funds (ETFs)?
My point was that the success of ETFs depended on low cost trades. Schwab opened the first so-called discount brokerage.
MnD
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by MnD »

Schwab index funds and ETF's are excellent as is their customer service and paired checking account.
And if you don't like the Schwab offerings you can purchase Vanguard or Ishares ETF's at Schwab. We have several.

I use T-bill ladders for the one account that we have with liquidity needs (80%) along with SWVXX (20%).
Our current "settlement account cash" across 6 Schwab accounts totals 2 cents.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
the_wiki
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by the_wiki »

E*trade is an interesting option as now they have zero transaction fees on everyone’s mutual funds. Buy vanguard, Schwab and fidelity all at the same place for no additional fees.

Their support is only average, though.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by beyou »

galawdawg wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:59 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Indeed! Here's a bit of investor history...

Look back to the day Jack Bogle started Vanguard, which was a mutual fund company1, to see who started the brokerage commission price wars. It was May 1, 1975, the day the SEC deregulated stock trading commissions. When many other brokerages raised their commissions as a result, Schwab cut commissions and opened the first discount brokerage. Where Jack was the low-cost leader for mutual fund investors, Charles Schwab was the low-cost leader for stock investors. The race to lower costs and commissions has gone back and forth ever since!

So while I give Jack credit for many investing achievements, Chuck Schwab is the one who gets the credit for starting the brokerage commission war....way back in 1975!

And another plus for Schwab is that it is a publicly-traded company. While there are a few pro-Vanguard Bogleheads who point to that as though it is a dirty word, remember that most of us are investors in....publicly-traded companies. So when Schwab does well, we who invest in any (or nearly any) US stock index fund also do well! Furthermore, as a publicly-traded company, Schwab provides the transparency and accountability that are lacking at Vanguard and Fidelity. All positives as far as I'm concerned. :beer



1Vanguard didn't form a brokerage until 1983
OTOH public companies have pressures for short-term performance that privately held firms do not have.
One of the things that made Fidelity successful and have superior technology is the very fact that it was privately held and could afford to invest for the long term. Good technology only results from long term planning, never from short-term think.
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typical.investor
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by typical.investor »

beyou wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:09 am
galawdawg wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:59 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Indeed! Here's a bit of investor history...

Look back to the day Jack Bogle started Vanguard, which was a mutual fund company1, to see who started the brokerage commission price wars. It was May 1, 1975, the day the SEC deregulated stock trading commissions. When many other brokerages raised their commissions as a result, Schwab cut commissions and opened the first discount brokerage. Where Jack was the low-cost leader for mutual fund investors, Charles Schwab was the low-cost leader for stock investors. The race to lower costs and commissions has gone back and forth ever since!

So while I give Jack credit for many investing achievements, Chuck Schwab is the one who gets the credit for starting the brokerage commission war....way back in 1975!

And another plus for Schwab is that it is a publicly-traded company. While there are a few pro-Vanguard Bogleheads who point to that as though it is a dirty word, remember that most of us are investors in....publicly-traded companies. So when Schwab does well, we who invest in any (or nearly any) US stock index fund also do well! Furthermore, as a publicly-traded company, Schwab provides the transparency and accountability that are lacking at Vanguard and Fidelity. All positives as far as I'm concerned. :beer



1Vanguard didn't form a brokerage until 1983
OTOH public companies have pressures for short-term performance that privately held firms do not have.
One of the things that made Fidelity successful and have superior technology is the very fact that it was privately held and could afford to invest for the long term. Good technology only results from long term planning, never from short-term think.
If Fidelity has better tech than Schwab, I have not experienced it in my HSA and 529 there.

And if anyone says Vanguard has better tech than Schwab, I will just roll my eyes and chuckle.

But yeah, short-term performance measures aren't always the best.
Lisbon2022
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Lisbon2022 »

I had two very bad experiences at Vanguard.

No one helped me.

Schwab has much better customer service AND they have physical stores.
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beyou
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by beyou »

typical.investor wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:17 am
beyou wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:09 am
galawdawg wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:59 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
Indeed! Here's a bit of investor history...

Look back to the day Jack Bogle started Vanguard, which was a mutual fund company1, to see who started the brokerage commission price wars. It was May 1, 1975, the day the SEC deregulated stock trading commissions. When many other brokerages raised their commissions as a result, Schwab cut commissions and opened the first discount brokerage. Where Jack was the low-cost leader for mutual fund investors, Charles Schwab was the low-cost leader for stock investors. The race to lower costs and commissions has gone back and forth ever since!

So while I give Jack credit for many investing achievements, Chuck Schwab is the one who gets the credit for starting the brokerage commission war....way back in 1975!

And another plus for Schwab is that it is a publicly-traded company. While there are a few pro-Vanguard Bogleheads who point to that as though it is a dirty word, remember that most of us are investors in....publicly-traded companies. So when Schwab does well, we who invest in any (or nearly any) US stock index fund also do well! Furthermore, as a publicly-traded company, Schwab provides the transparency and accountability that are lacking at Vanguard and Fidelity. All positives as far as I'm concerned. :beer



1Vanguard didn't form a brokerage until 1983
OTOH public companies have pressures for short-term performance that privately held firms do not have.
One of the things that made Fidelity successful and have superior technology is the very fact that it was privately held and could afford to invest for the long term. Good technology only results from long term planning, never from short-term think.
If Fidelity has better tech than Schwab, I have not experienced it in my HSA and 529 there.

And if anyone says Vanguard has better tech than Schwab, I will just roll my eyes and chuckle.

But yeah, short-term performance measures aren't always the best.
Being private does not force a firm nor guarantee they will have a long term vision to invest in their infrastructure, and I was not using Vanguard as an example because I do not think they take advantage of their private status. Having worked in the industry, and having spoken to people in IT at Vanguard, Fidelity and working for BlackRock when it was privately held, Fidelity and BlackRock absolutely put alot of resources into IT. Vanguard invests much less and poorly it would seem, bad culture of cutting costs at expense of quality. But the assertion that somehow Schwab is superior BECAUSE they are public is ridiculous. Some public companies do plan and invest in quality more than others, similar to private companies, but if there is any bias based on public or private, IMO it would not be towards public companies. I worked for many years at a public asset manager, and the managers there care only for the value of their stock, and every time the market corrects, they get rid of staff no matter how critical to client services. They relocated offices to save $ knowing they would lose key staff, to save expenses and pump up their stock. Fidelity decided years ago to relocate to cheaper real estate, but still close enough to their original location so as not to lose key tech and ops staff. Most public companies are moving jobs to places far away and losing key staff. Schwab is one of those firms.

I personally have had no issues with Vanguard, their site handles 99% if my needs. The few times I called, often resulted in little wait time, and directing me to something that either is supported/documented online, or in one case handled by their internal systems immediately while on the phone with a rep. That said, if I was to move anywhere, it would be Fidelity not Schwab and Schwab being public would not sway me otherwise. Not saying Schwab is terrible, many find it good (as I find Vanguard meets my needs). But having worked in the industry for decades, only BlackRock and Fidelity really ever impressed me with their technical prowess and desire to invest and improve.
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galawdawg
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by galawdawg »

beyou wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:36 am Most public companies are moving jobs to places far away and losing key staff. Schwab is one of those firms.
Where did you get this information? I have never reached anyone at Schwab who was not based in the US. As far as I know (and I certainly could be uninformed), Schwab does not use overseas call centers.

And while Schwab has been eliminating or reducing duplicate positions as they complete their TD Ameritrade acquisition (as any responsible company should), I haven't read anything suggesting that they are "losing key staff."

Care to elaborate?
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by 1moreyr »

When trying to roll 2 different accounts from VG to Schwab, (my wife's IRA, and one small 401K ) I waited on the line for hours with VG for the simplest question. I called Schwab and they walked me through it from their end.

I usually don't need that level of hand holding but when it's >$800K you want to know you did it right.

either one is fine, but with $1M plus at schwab, i can call or email a local broker (that is assigned to my account) and get the answers i need. I was trying to set up a SEP_IRA and he was able to get me a technical answer the issue quickly when the Schwab retirement folks were less clear.

They don't manage the money as I am self directed. When I am plant food my wife will benefit from having someone to call for the little things. as she has little to know interest in all of this. the money will be on autopilot and my accountant can help her with withdrawal strategies, but getting an answer in a day will have value.

each to his own....
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beyou
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by beyou »

galawdawg wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:54 am
beyou wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:36 am Most public companies are moving jobs to places far away and losing key staff. Schwab is one of those firms.
Where did you get this information? I have never reached anyone at Schwab who was not based in the US. As far as I know (and I certainly could be uninformed), Schwab does not use overseas call centers.

And while Schwab has been eliminating or reducing duplicate positions as they complete their TD Ameritrade acquisition (as any responsible company should), I haven't read anything suggesting that they are "losing key staff."

Care to elaborate?
I said “far away places” not specifically India in relation to Schwab, though most companies are doing so for certain functions.

As to Schwab it is somewhat old news that they are moving much of their tech and ops out of their historically CA offices to Texas and other locations.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/charl ... 1/2514658/

https://www.schwabjobs.com/search-jobs

Having been a software developer and manager/CTO/COO at 5 fund manager, and an investment bank, for decades, hiring and firing positions, I can tell you that the knowledge required to do things right operationally in the back office was historically concentrated in a handful of cities. NYC, Boston, Chicago and to a lesser extent because of Schwab, SF have been knowledge worker hubs for decades, for all except the front line broker you see at branches (or talk to on phone). Years ago a couple of large banks openend major operations in Charlotte, NC, attempting to duplicate the knowledge base in a newer cheaper geography. I think they did achieve this to some extent though it took decades. I recall getting recruiting calls to solicit coming to Charlotte, but not everyone with experience (kids in school or spouse working) is willing to relocate, so these firms settle on hiring inexperienced kids and having the blind lead the blind. This happened at Vanguard and it is happening now at Schwab. It is not just retaining people with industry knowledge, but specific knowledge of your own internal systems that is also a key risk when relocating where employees do not want to relocate. I have seen this over and over in my career. There are stages of transition. Initially all is fine as they systems continue as-is, but over time as key staff leave and the systems they knew need enhancements/fixes, they take longer and/or done incorrectly, leading to years of declining service. EVENTUALLY, things should work out as the kids and new hires (without industry much less firm specific knowledge) learn the systems and the industry requirements/best practices, but this takes years.

Large mergers like Schwab is undertaking are always a distraction from meaningful operations and tech progress. Relocation is also a huge distraction, and they are doing both at same time.

The people you speak to on the phone may well be in a US call center and speak clearly and project confidence/competence to you, but ultimately they rely on all those tech and ops guys that are treated as interchangeable garbage by most financial services firms. If I had worked for Schwab in SF, had kids in school and family nearby, I would not move to Texas with the firm. They would lose my decades if very deep knowledge of both tech and fund management/brokerage/investing. I have read that industry averages of employee retention when relocating are close to 20% retained. Given there are so many specialties in tech and ops, and so little redundancy of job functions in staffing, no way 20% of staff can train 80% new hires. It just does not work in any meaningful timeframe. Management often gives staff 3-6 months to train new hires and then lets go the trainers who wont relocate, people who mastered their craft over many years, which leaves replacements pitifully unprepared. I have lived this over and over in my career. Do not expect the next few years at Schwab to go smoothly with the TDA integration moving ahead. You many not feel it, but I can guarantee you it is there behind the scenes.

The one thing Fidelity did better than the rest, they moved same tech/ops jobs within same region so people can stay near family and either make a different commute or relocate locally and still be near family/friends. Much smarter and their ever improving tech shows it, private firms often can do things better. When BlackRock was private, I asked a top exec “what is the tech budget”. His answer was essentially that there is none, we want the best, period. Since then while they have hired in other regions, they did NOT relocate out of their historical home, despite being HCOL, as they understood the value of both retaining key staff AND the ecosystem in NYC that existed pre-covid. Covid changed alot, but some firms still wont allow remote work for those who choose not to relocate to a distant city. Just cheap and short sighted, except BlackRock and Fidelity.

Full disclosure, I and not saying Schwab is any worse than most of the industry, most financial firms are doing this, just that BlackRock and Fidelity are doing it better than most. I have no problem buying a Schwab index fund and could even consider an account there if I was not getting what I needed at Vanguard or Fidelity, but it is a distant 3rd choice for next few years while they ingest these changes underway. Every time I drive by a Fidelity branch I think “maybe I should move”. Not when I pass a Schwab branch. But I did start buying ishares, Schwab ETFs instead of being 100% Vanguard as I once was. But the functions to operate these funds are more isolated and not complex for the limited set of funds managed by Schwab Asset Management.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by backpacker61 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
I paid about a $50 commission on trades at Olde Discount. This was in about 1985.

Doing everything in "round lots" (multiples of 100 shares) was a PiTA back then, too.
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typical.investor
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by typical.investor »

beyou wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:36 am Not saying Schwab is terrible, many find it good (as I find Vanguard meets my needs). But having worked in the industry for decades, only BlackRock and Fidelity really ever impressed me with their technical prowess and desire to invest and improve.
My criteria is this - when I place a trade, is it executed without problems. For me, both Vanguard and Fidelity had some unacceptable failures. Schwab has always gone smoothly.

BlackRock isn't an option because they don't handle customer accounts. So maybe you are talking about technical prowess to develop systems for their actively managed funds. I don't care about that, nor do I care how Jane Street or Bridgewater or other companies invest or don't in technology because I really only care about places that are an option to hold my account at.

Anyway, if privately traded firms are so superior as you say, they why do most of us use so many products from publicly traded firms? It seems like many of them offer very good products. I actually thought the comment you didn't like was a good one.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by RustyShackleford »

Understanding that this thread is more about the companies' investment offerings, I'd just add that Schwab's website is FAR superior. I'd go so far as to assert that it's the best website I've ever seen at any financial type company.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Northern Flicker »

backpacker61 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:47 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:25 pm Schwab also made everyone else change for the better. I'm not sure how successful ETFs would have been with commissions at $100/trade.
I paid about a $50 commission on trades at Olde Discount. This was in about 1985.

Doing everything in "round lots" (multiples of 100 shares) was a PiTA back then, too.
I don't think $50 trades would cut it either for people to use ETFs over mutual funds, but they would have been competing with 3% loads, so who knows? I remember thinking at one time what a screaming good deal I was getting paying only a 0.5% ER for an S&P500 fund.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by NYCaviator »

One of the things that Fidelity and Schwab have that Vanguard doesn't (and this is big for us) is a banking product. It's nice to have that option. But as others above have said, we are actually thinking of moving from Schwab to Fidelity just because of Schwab's paltry cash rates. I get that's how they make their money, but it's hard to justify keeping your cash somewhere that pays .45 vs 3.5+
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by galawdawg »

NYCaviator wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:03 pm But as others above have said, we are actually thinking of moving from Schwab to Fidelity just because of Schwab's paltry cash rates. I get that's how they make their money, but it's hard to justify keeping your cash somewhere that pays .45 vs 3.5+
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Schwab consistently pays higher rates on cash in their money market funds than Fidelity.

The issue you and others note is that Fidelity puts your cash in one of their money market funds by default while at Schwab one must take the step of moving otherwise uninvested cash into the desired money market fund.

As I view it, investors who choose Fidelity for that reason pay extra for their cash "auto-Investing" feature. Whether an investor prefers that convenience at Fidelity at 4.21% or Schwab's higher rate of 4.38% is a matter of personal preference.

As we each have different needs and priorities, it is good to have choice! :beer



*Rates quoted are seven (7) day yield as of 2/3/2023.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Northern Flicker »

The only Schwab MMF with 24% or more in govt obligations that are exempt from state taxes is the Schwab Treasury Money Fund, which is at 100%. The investor shares (without the $1M minimum of the Ultra shares) currently has a 7-day SEC yield of only 3.97%.

Schwab Treasury Obligations Money Fund – Investor Shares is at 4.16% but with only about 23.8% of the interest exempt from state taxes, that would be a lower after-tax yield for me.

You may prefer Schwab or Fidelity to Vanguard for any number of reasons, but you will either give up yield or take more risk or both with money market accounts.
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by jbogler »

Target2019 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:58 pm
jbogler wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:25 am Thank you for all the great feedback. I will sum it up as "it depends". Depends on what your needs are, as there are quite a number of factors. I will digest all this information and make a decision
Most recommend what they use. That's human nature. What I've observed over a very long time, with my own behavior and others, is that humans tend to look past the data that doesn't support their choice.

So I can only tell you about my experience. I've been with Vanguard from 1982, and with Schwab since 2017. From 1982 through 2015, I/we did not need anything beyond a few low-cost funds. I may have used Vanguard CS a few times during that entire time. In late 2016 we had to set up a brokerage to receive gifted stock. That was a breeze at Schwab. I met Schwab employees at a local branch, and went there to deposit checks every once in a blue moon.

As I began to look closely at the web interfaces, I noticed a definite lack of modernization at Vanguard. Then came customer service problems with the conversion to brokerage accounts. I tried to look past the Vanguard blemishes, but eventually concluded that account consolidation would be done at Schwab.

I've consolidated two work plans to a rollover IRA at Schwab. The personal service I received from the branch (just send an email), and also online, exceeds my calls to anonymous Vanguard customer support.

So, as you say, it depends. There are short-comings with any company, and the bigger they are, the less they'll listen to you. So talkk to folks at Vanguard, Fidelity, and Schwab. Be aware there are differences, and it's great to have a choice.
I am in your boat. I have been at vanguard for years but in a hands off low maintenance situation. Now that i am getting more complicated, dealing with my moms estate. I could use better customer service and web interface. I also like another poster suggestion that with a local branch my wife can go in person to sort out the assets when i die.
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jbogler
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by jbogler »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 7:12 pm The only Schwab MMF with 24% or more in govt obligations that are exempt from state taxes is the Schwab Treasury Money Fund, which is at 100%. The investor shares (without the $1M minimum of the Ultra shares) currently has a 7-day SEC yield of only 3.97%.

Schwab Treasury Obligations Money Fund – Investor Shares is at 4.16% but with only about 23.8% of the interest exempt from state taxes, that would be a lower after-tax yield for me.

You may prefer Schwab or Fidelity to Vanguard for any number of reasons, but you will either give up yield or take more risk or both with money market accounts.
Good to know about the mmf
Topic Author
jbogler
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by jbogler »

egri wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:13 am I use Vanguard, Schwab and Fidelity. I only got Fidelity because they were running the 'deposit $50, get $100' promotion, and later to deposit my rewards from their Visa. If I could do it over, I wouldn't have gone with Vanguard, owing to their outdated UI and poor customer service, but it isn't enough of an inconvenience yet for me to move things now. My favorite of the three is Schwab, but as someone else said, it's Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge.
My local Schwab branch received almost as many one stars as 5 stars. Wondering if that is something i can ignore as rude customers get treated rudely.
FreelancerNYC
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by FreelancerNYC »

jbogler wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:12 pm My local Schwab branch received almost as many one stars as 5 stars. Wondering if that is something i can ignore as rude customers get treated rudely.
Generally speaking, you can and should ignore Google reviews, if that’s what you’re referring to. Hardly an accurate barometer of quality.
Target2019
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Target2019 »

jbogler wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:12 pm
egri wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:13 am I use Vanguard, Schwab and Fidelity. I only got Fidelity because they were running the 'deposit $50, get $100' promotion, and later to deposit my rewards from their Visa. If I could do it over, I wouldn't have gone with Vanguard, owing to their outdated UI and poor customer service, but it isn't enough of an inconvenience yet for me to move things now. My favorite of the three is Schwab, but as someone else said, it's Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge.
My local Schwab branch received almost as many one stars as 5 stars. Wondering if that is something i can ignore as rude customers get treated rudely.
I looked at our local branch on the Google map, which has just 7 reviews. Two are negative (1 on the meter), and neither make sense (but are addressed by an employee, with number to call).

Also note corporate branches from independent ones. For example, an office in the boonies is labeled as "Schwab Independent Branch." I've never beem there, so I can't say whether that makes a difference at all.
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ruralavalon
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by ruralavalon »

Target2019 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:58 pm
jbogler wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:25 am Thank you for all the great feedback. I will sum it up as "it depends". Depends on what your needs are, as there are quite a number of factors. I will digest all this information and make a decision
Most recommend what they use. That's human nature. What I've observed over a very long time, with my own behavior and others, is that humans tend to look past the data that doesn't support their choice.
Or it could be that many people have settled down at a fund firm or brokerage that suits their personal needs.
Last edited by ruralavalon on Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
ROIGuy
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by ROIGuy »

Target2019 wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:11 am
jbogler wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:12 pm
egri wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:13 am I use Vanguard, Schwab and Fidelity. I only got Fidelity because they were running the 'deposit $50, get $100' promotion, and later to deposit my rewards from their Visa. If I could do it over, I wouldn't have gone with Vanguard, owing to their outdated UI and poor customer service, but it isn't enough of an inconvenience yet for me to move things now. My favorite of the three is Schwab, but as someone else said, it's Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge.
My local Schwab branch received almost as many one stars as 5 stars. Wondering if that is something i can ignore as rude customers get treated rudely.
I looked at our local branch on the Google map, which has just 7 reviews. Two are negative (1 on the meter), and neither make sense (but are addressed by an employee, with number to call).

Also note corporate branches from independent ones. For example, an office in the boonies is labeled as "Schwab Independent Branch." I've never beem there, so I can't say whether that makes a difference at all.
The thing I learned most about customer service over the years is that it's not so much the company as it is the person (s) you are dealing with. I have gone into stores where they are supposed to be fabulous for their service and you get the wrong person and it's a bad experience, and vice versa.

The problem with reviews is that they are obviously personal. I was checking into a hotel one time and the person in front of me had gone through Priceline (third party), and through that system they had set up their hotel reservation which the hotel because of the bookings could not accommodate, but they did get her set up at a nearby other hotel. I heard the whole conversation standing behind the person. The front desk people were polite and helpful. Later on and TripAdvisor I saw the review from that person, and I knew it was that person because of how they wrote the review. Funny how it was a very different experience from what I heard transpire.
Bmac
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by Bmac »

It’s not been mentioned (possibly because I’m wrong) but my biggest frustration with Schwab is the inability to have specific ID and DIY lot selection for mutual fund transactions. At least I have been unable to do this. I believe a call is required. Vanguard makes it super easy. I have no experience with Fidelity in this regard since our only accounts are tax-deferred/free.
Topic Author
jbogler
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by jbogler »

Bmac wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:14 am It’s not been mentioned (possibly because I’m wrong) but my biggest frustration with Schwab is the inability to have specific ID and DIY lot selection for mutual fund transactions. At least I have been unable to do this. I believe a call is required. Vanguard makes it super easy. I have no experience with Fidelity in this regard since our only accounts are tax-deferred/free.
Good to know
toddthebod
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by toddthebod »

Bmac wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:14 am It’s not been mentioned (possibly because I’m wrong) but my biggest frustration with Schwab is the inability to have specific ID and DIY lot selection for mutual fund transactions. At least I have been unable to do this. I believe a call is required. Vanguard makes it super easy. I have no experience with Fidelity in this regard since our only accounts are tax-deferred/free.
You can do it by filling out and uploading this form:
https://client.schwab.com/secure/file/P ... 1-fill.pdf

But a phone call might be faster.
CloseEnough
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by CloseEnough »

From what I can tell, and my experience, Vanguard has less flexibility to set up TOD beneficiaries with per stirpes instructions, certainly as compared to Fidelity and I think Schwab as well. That can make using TOD beneficiaries on investment accounts where there is more than one primary beneficiary a less optimal solution in the event one of the primary beneficiaries predeceases the account owner, depending on your goals. Just something I recently became aware of, might not be important to most in considering this decision.
stlrick
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by stlrick »

toddthebod wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:36 pm
Bmac wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:14 am It’s not been mentioned (possibly because I’m wrong) but my biggest frustration with Schwab is the inability to have specific ID and DIY lot selection for mutual fund transactions. At least I have been unable to do this. I believe a call is required. Vanguard makes it super easy. I have no experience with Fidelity in this regard since our only accounts are tax-deferred/free.
You can do it by filling out and uploading this form:
https://client.schwab.com/secure/file/P ... 1-fill.pdf

But a phone call might be faster.
The control of the lots to sell at Schwab is 100% immediately and directly available online. When you click on "Sell Lots" you get an option to indicate which lots to sell, with all the options listed on the linked form. I know this works for etf's and individual equities. I do not know if mutual funds are handled differently.
toddthebod
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by toddthebod »

stlrick wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:31 am
toddthebod wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 3:36 pm
Bmac wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:14 am It’s not been mentioned (possibly because I’m wrong) but my biggest frustration with Schwab is the inability to have specific ID and DIY lot selection for mutual fund transactions. At least I have been unable to do this. I believe a call is required. Vanguard makes it super easy. I have no experience with Fidelity in this regard since our only accounts are tax-deferred/free.
You can do it by filling out and uploading this form:
https://client.schwab.com/secure/file/P ... 1-fill.pdf

But a phone call might be faster.
The control of the lots to sell at Schwab is 100% immediately and directly available online. When you click on "Sell Lots" you get an option to indicate which lots to sell, with all the options listed on the linked form. I know this works for etf's and individual equities. I do not know if mutual funds are handled differently.
Mutual funds are handled differently. You cannot change the cost basis away from average cost online.
urban
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Re: Vanguard vs Schwab

Post by urban »

CloseEnough wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:24 am From what I can tell, and my experience, Vanguard has less flexibility to set up TOD beneficiaries with per stirpes instructions, certainly as compared to Fidelity and I think Schwab as well.
From what I know (the last I checked a couple of years ago), VG does not allow TOD for joint accounts, only for individual accounts. That is a big minus. They did allow it for joint accounts previously, but stopped it years ago.
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