How should I think about my income/career growth?

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Jags4186
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How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
jebmke
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by jebmke »

Not really enough information. Might depend on what industry you are in and whether you are being compensated in line with market rates. My gut tells me that tech has a long way to go with layoffs and there will be a rolling reset in compensation (accomplished in part by turnover).

IN my career I never prioritized compensation when I was making decisions on job offers and job changes - but that was just the way I decided to do it from the start.
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Jags4186
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

I work in CPG and am in a sales role. Despite steadily increasing my book of business my comp isn’t really changing.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by JoeRetire »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
If you are a top performer, why aren't you earning top bonus money?
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Jags4186
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:24 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
If you are a top performer, why aren't you earning top bonus money?
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
tashnewbie
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by tashnewbie »

I don't know much of anything about CPG (consumer packaged goods? Had to google.), but I suspect there won't be much slowdown in that market in 2023 or the foreseeable future, because a lot of those products are necessities. Different players in the market may do better or worse than others, though.

Are you happy with your work?

I don't think it would hurt to explore other options and see how the total comp compares to your current job. That benchmarking will at least give you an idea of where you stand in the market. You'll either be more confident in your current comp or you'll feel more comfortable jumping ship.
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mrmass
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by mrmass »

CPG is broad My wife works for a mfg in the CPG world. It's a food product. We used to go to all the shows, UNFI, KeHe Fancy Food Show, etc.

If you work for a mfg with a small niche product line, (like my wife) it is limiting. Stores are always tweaking their planograms shuffling out low moving items.

All I can add is that maybe you can augment your sales ability by gaining some data analytics skills to help you with your storytelling.
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Watty
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Watty »

It would not hurt to look around to see what sort of other offers you can get. Then you can decide what to do.
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water.
In some fields you will quickly hit your peak earning years and after that you are doing really good to be able to tread water and keep up with inflation.

I was a software developer before I retired and while it was highly variable people tended to hit their earnings peak in maybe their mid to late 30s and after that unless you successfully went into management you were doing doing good to keep up with inflation. I was a techie and did not have the temperament or any desire to go into management so I did not even try to do that. Through my 40's I was pretty much "treading water" with inflation salary wise and then I lost some to inflation until I retired in my late 50's. I was still well paid so that was not a problem.

It could be that your expectations of continually increasing salary are not realistic especially if you promotions were mainly a job title change and you were still basically doing the same work.

It could also be that your field is changing so that your type of sales is less rewarding now and will be even less in the future so watch out for that.
DiMAn0684
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by DiMAn0684 »

I am in tech and don't know anything about CPG, but 2023 is not looking bright for tech sales as or right now. Might make sense to wait until next spring to see where things are going, before you consider switching jobs.
hoofaman
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by hoofaman »

My career so far:

Individual Contributor/Team Lead 150k
Engineering Manager 170k
Director of Architecture 210k
Individual Contributor 360k

I made the switch back IC to join a "big tech" company which has much higher levels of total compensation compared to the companies I worked at previously. Also I've been enjoying work a lot more, better compensation growth as well.

Does your industry have similar companies which offer compensation that is on a different level than other companies?
Normchad
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Normchad »

Yes, you should be looking for a new job. Everybody should do this every few years. You might nit end up accepting a new job, but you need to be out there, seeing what else is available. Everybody should do this.

Plus, it keeps you in good practice for interviewing in case you get canned in the future, etc. The wolf is always at the door.

You simply can’t know what a fair wage for yourself is, unless/until you give other employers a chance to make you an offer.
DiMAn0684
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by DiMAn0684 »

hoofaman wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:10 pm My career so far:

Individual Contributor/Team Lead 150k
Engineering Manager 170k
Director of Architecture 210k
Individual Contributor 360k

I made the switch back IC to join a "big tech" company which has much higher levels of total compensation compared to the companies I worked at previously. Also I've been enjoying work a lot more, better compensation growth as well.

Does your industry have similar companies which offer compensation that is on a different level than other companies?
I am curious, were the first three within the same org?
hoofaman
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by hoofaman »

DiMAn0684 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:18 pm
hoofaman wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:10 pm My career so far:

Individual Contributor/Team Lead 150k
Engineering Manager 170k
Director of Architecture 210k
Individual Contributor 360k

I made the switch back IC to join a "big tech" company which has much higher levels of total compensation compared to the companies I worked at previously. Also I've been enjoying work a lot more, better compensation growth as well.

Does your industry have similar companies which offer compensation that is on a different level than other companies?
I am curious, were the first three within the same org?
No, that's a condensed view of 7 different companies over 25 years, had some lateral moves/company changes
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JoeRetire
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by JoeRetire »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:29 am
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:24 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
If you are a top performer, why aren't you earning top bonus money?
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
Ah, I see.

This is the kind of bonus program I like to see. The company does well, and you do well, you benefit. Unfortunately if the company doesn't do well at all, you get little or no bonus.

It makes sense to me. If I do well, but it doesn't impact the company's bottom line, I accept not getting a bonus.

So the question you need to ask yourself is - will the company do well going forward, or is there something going on that means no chances at bonus money. If the latter, why do you want to be there?
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GP813
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by GP813 »

You're averaging $160K "real" for the 5 years, before you started that job if somebody had told you'd make $160k for the next 5, would you have been happy and what would be your number to be happy for the next 5 years?
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Jags4186
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:46 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:29 am
JoeRetire wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:24 am
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
If you are a top performer, why aren't you earning top bonus money?
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
Ah, I see.

This is the kind of bonus program I like to see. The company does well, and you do well, you benefit. Unfortunately if the company doesn't do well at all, you get little or no bonus.

It makes sense to me. If I do well, but it doesn't impact the company's bottom line, I accept not getting a bonus.

So the question you need to ask yourself is - will the company do well going forward, or is there something going on that means no chances at bonus money. If the latter, why do you want to be there?
It’s heavily skewed against the employee. There are 3 scenarios:

1) company hits target, you hit target, you get paid
2) company hits target, you don’t hit target, you don’t get paid
3) company doesn’t hit target, you hit target, you don’t get paid

The bolded part is truly the crux of the matter. The company has made a lot of “big bets” in areas of the business I am not involved. I am not at the level where I receive RSUs so the big bets don’t necessarily pay off for me if they work (nor can I contribute to their success) but hurt me if they don’t work out well.
Hoosier CPA
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Hoosier CPA »

Normchad wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:17 pm Yes, you should be looking for a new job. Everybody should do this every few years. You might nit end up accepting a new job, but you need to be out there, seeing what else is available. Everybody should do this.

Plus, it keeps you in good practice for interviewing in case you get canned in the future, etc. The wolf is always at the door.

You simply can’t know what a fair wage for yourself is, unless/until you give other employers a chance to make you an offer.
I think I'm finally learning this the hard way. Loyalty isn't rewarded. I don't know if it's inertia or fear of the unknown, but I'm certain I'd be further ahead if I learned this 15 years ago. Still have time...
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by CletusCaddy »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
I haven't heard of any sales role that works like this. Sales commission is almost always tied to accounts that you own. Nothing to do with company performance. Company performance is how the accountants should be bonused. Not the salespeople.
Normchad
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Normchad »

Hoosier CPA wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:13 pm
Normchad wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:17 pm Yes, you should be looking for a new job. Everybody should do this every few years. You might nit end up accepting a new job, but you need to be out there, seeing what else is available. Everybody should do this.

Plus, it keeps you in good practice for interviewing in case you get canned in the future, etc. The wolf is always at the door.

You simply can’t know what a fair wage for yourself is, unless/until you give other employers a chance to make you an offer.
I think I'm finally learning this the hard way. Loyalty isn't rewarded. I don't know if it's inertia or fear of the unknown, but I'm certain I'd be further ahead if I learned this 15 years ago. Still have time...
Chin up. In a lot of cases, loyalty is rewarded. And in a lot of cases the best decision is to stay put. The big lesson though is this: you never know unless you look around.

Personally, I’ve been with the same employer for 20+ years, but only because it was what was best for me. I’d leave tomorrow if something better came along.
traveling_salesman
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by traveling_salesman »

Comp structure seems really weird. Why would a top performer remain at this company? I have seen additive bonuses (company does well you get x, you do well you get x+y). But I don’t get this multiplication business.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by JoeRetire »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm It’s heavily skewed against the employee. There are 3 scenarios:

1) company hits target, you hit target, you get paid
2) company hits target, you don’t hit target, you don’t get paid
3) company doesn’t hit target, you hit target, you don’t get paid

The bolded part is truly the crux of the matter. The company has made a lot of “big bets” in areas of the business I am not involved. I am not at the level where I receive RSUs so the big bets don’t necessarily pay off for me if they work (nor can I contribute to their success) but hurt me if they don’t work out well.
That's one way to look at it. I look at it differently. I don't see it as "skewed against".

IMHO, if the company does well and you do well, you should get a healthy bonus in order to benefit from your shared success.
Otherwise, your salary is what you should get. And if you are a good performer, you should get a raise.

If you are doubtful about the company's "big bets" you should find a new job. And there are plenty of companies with different compensation structures.

Just my view.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by JoeRetire »

CletusCaddy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:29 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
I haven't heard of any sales role that works like this. Sales commission is almost always tied to accounts that you own. Nothing to do with company performance. Company performance is how the accountants should be bonused. Not the salespeople.
Are we talking about a "bonus" or "commission" here?
In my experience, they aren't the same thing.

The OP used the term "bonus" here.
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CletusCaddy
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by CletusCaddy »

JoeRetire wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:15 am
CletusCaddy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:29 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
I haven't heard of any sales role that works like this. Sales commission is almost always tied to accounts that you own. Nothing to do with company performance. Company performance is how the accountants should be bonused. Not the salespeople.
Are we talking about a "bonus" or "commission" here?
In my experience, they aren't the same thing.

The OP used the term "bonus" here.
Ok…

I have also never heard of a true customer facing sales role with only a bonus and no commission.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by JoeRetire »

CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:12 am
JoeRetire wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:15 am
CletusCaddy wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:29 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:12 pm
The way our bonus program is set up the company overall has a target of X profitability. If the company hits X and you hit your target you get paid your target bonus. If the company performs 1.5X your bonus scales up to 1.5 target. If the company performs 0.5X your bonus scales down to 50% target. If the company hits 0X you get bupkiss. Overall, there's been a trend of <1X the last 2 years and continuing into this year.
I haven't heard of any sales role that works like this. Sales commission is almost always tied to accounts that you own. Nothing to do with company performance. Company performance is how the accountants should be bonused. Not the salespeople.
Are we talking about a "bonus" or "commission" here?
In my experience, they aren't the same thing.

The OP used the term "bonus" here.
Ok…

I have also never heard of a true customer facing sales role with only a bonus and no commission.
I agree. Perhaps it's a language issue or not actually a true customer facing sales role.

I just answered it as it was written.
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cellisto
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by cellisto »

Interesting thread. OP, your post made me look into my wages over the past few years and if folks here are saying you should at the very least be out looking to find your worth then I am definitely in that camp as well. Mine for comparison. My overall comp varies based on OT amount, but this is for normal hours. Very flat…with 2022 looking to be the same.

2019 base = 106,186
2020 base = 106,898
2021 base = 107,243
Robin1234
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Robin1234 »

hoofaman wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:24 pm
DiMAn0684 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:18 pm
hoofaman wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:10 pm My career so far:

Individual Contributor/Team Lead 150k
Engineering Manager 170k
Director of Architecture 210k
Individual Contributor 360k

I made the switch back IC to join a "big tech" company which has much higher levels of total compensation compared to the companies I worked at previously. Also I've been enjoying work a lot more, better compensation growth as well.

Does your industry have similar companies which offer compensation that is on a different level than other companies?
I am curious, were the first three within the same org?
No, that's a condensed view of 7 different companies over 25 years, had some lateral moves/company changes
Thanks for sharing. I found that very helpful. My experience is similar although I have yet to crack the last leg. It is been frustrating so far. A lot of competition and it needs hardening up yourself to meet folks on the other side of the table. I feel it is extremely business like and you need to battle it out.
Robin1234
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Robin1234 »

OP - One way, is to consider yourself is 1 person company. If you are a consulting company calculate what are you making every hour. What is the likelihood of business continuing uninterrupted (no layoffs). Some places may pay less, but the hours & complexity of work might be less as well.

At some places after a very long time familiarity with content & connections in the company might become huge assets. So even though monetarily you may be behind, you can still come out ahead on many other parameters. All this assumes your work will survive long-term.

I know some peers who continue with Cisco even now when it has been left behind by Google, Meta etc. And I feel they are doing fine. For all along they could be dropping their savings in to the market & compounding it. And also most of their work is known to them like the back of their hand.

For me personally I moved from a very hectic & fast paced work, to a place friendlier, bigger & slower. My salary is the same but my work hours are reduced 75%. Right now business stability I perceive has increased dramatically as compared to my last work place. Given these two factors, even though I made a lateral move, I should say my hourly salary has increased.
kmanjir
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by kmanjir »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
Hi Jags4186,

Can you please share the source of the inflation data you are using?

I want to do a similar exercise for myself taking inflation into account, but when I look online I am not finding the exact numbers you have used. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place? For example, for 2021, I am getting an inflation of 4.7%, and for 2020, 1.26%.

This is what I am looking at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-1990/

Thanks!
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Jags4186
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

kmanjir wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:47 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:41 am Hello folks,

As we come to the end of the year, I have been looking at my income trajectory over the past few years at my company, and while it is generally up, it is not up "a lot" considering I've been promoted twice. Much of this is due to how bonuses have paid out -- my salary has steadily increased while variable comp has steadily decreased. In addition, based on the current environment, I anticipate 2023 to be a $0 bonus payout. When I look at it in terms of 2019 dollars, it's not that great.

Image

My concern is that I'm really kind of treading water. Would you look for employment elsewhere if this was your compensation trajectory despite being a top performer?
Hi Jags4186,

Can you please share the source of the inflation data you are using?

I want to do a similar exercise for myself taking inflation into account, but when I look online I am not finding the exact numbers you have used. Perhaps I am looking in the wrong place? For example, for 2021, I am getting an inflation of 4.7%, and for 2020, 1.26%.

This is what I am looking at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191 ... ince-1990/

Thanks!
Hi there,

I used the numbers from this site:

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/u-s-inf ... st-3306093
kmanjir
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by kmanjir »

Jags4186 wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:24 pm
Hi there,

I used the numbers from this site:

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/u-s-inf ... st-3306093
Thanks a lot! I wonder why there is such a discrepancy between this site and the one (and others similar to it) where they say for 2021, it was 4.71%. Different way of measuring, perhaps?

I'll use the numbers from your site for the 'worst-case' calculation on how much my gross pay is lagging inflation.

Thanks again
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Stef
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Stef »

Thanks for bringing this up OP. Never really took inflation into account when looking at salary progressions.
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Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Zeno »

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Last edited by Zeno on Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Jags4186 »

kmanjir wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:14 pm Thanks a lot! I wonder why there is such a discrepancy between this site and the one (and others similar to it) where they say for 2021, it was 4.71%. Different way of measuring, perhaps?

I'll use the numbers from your site for the 'worst-case' calculation on how much my gross pay is lagging inflation.

Thanks again
The reason the numbers are different is because the numbers in my link are December/year end numbers, and the ones you are using are yearly average.

FWIW I have decided to start looking for a new job in January. I'm 36 years old -- I'm not a pro tennis player who's already past his prime.
Afty
Posts: 2390
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: How should I think about my income/career growth?

Post by Afty »

Something like this happened to me a few years ago. Over 3 years I was promoted and had increasing performance ratings, but my total comp was flat or even slightly down year over year. I brought it up with my manager, and he fixed it in the next comp cycle. However, by that point I was dissatisfied with that job for several reasons (including the flat comp) and I left anyway.

My sense is that this is not uncommon when a significant fraction of your total comp comes from variable sources like bonus and RSUs.
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