Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

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lkjhj
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Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

I ordered a Lucid Air (which I'm still not certain I will take delivery of, but if I don't I will get some other EV) and I need to figure out what kind of charger to have in my garage. I've got zero EV experience, so I just want to get some help figuring this out.

1. What brand of charger should I get? I've heard good things about chargepoint and juicebox. Any other brands to consider? I assume these chargers will plug into the standard a J-1772 port and that any EV that I end up with (including a Tesla) could use this charger. Is that correct?

2. Hardwired or plug in? I really only desire level 2 charging at home, I would not need anything more than that. I also have no interest in bidirectional capabilities as I have a home backup generator. It's going to be in my garage. For those reason I'm thinking I should do plug in.

3. If I do plug in, what kind of plug should I get. NEMA 14-50 is what I'm thinking? Also what brand/model on the outlet fixture. I hear this can make a difference
mervinj7
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by mervinj7 »

Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging

Edit: as others have suggested, get an heavy duty 14-50 outlet and upsize the wire gauge in case you want to hardware to a higher current limit in the future.
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Last edited by mervinj7 on Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WestCoastPhan
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by WestCoastPhan »

mervinj7 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
Agreed. That's what I did.
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lkjhj
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

mervinj7 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
Thanks. I've heard something about repeatedly plugging/unplugging that cord wears it out (or something like that, not exactly sure what it was). Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. Is that not a concern?
mervinj7
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by mervinj7 »

lkjhj wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:32 am
mervinj7 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
Thanks. I've heard something about repeatedly plugging/unplugging that cord wears it out (or something like that, not exactly sure what it was). Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. Is that not a concern?
Yes, I think it's a concern as well. I leave the EVSE plugged in.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Fat Tails »

You cant plug the J-1772 directly into a Tesla. However, there is an adapter that will let you plug in a J-1772 cable to charge a Tesla,

https://www.amazon.com/Lectron-J1772-Te ... B08HGQK323
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onourway
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by onourway »

lkjhj wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:32 am
mervinj7 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
Thanks. I've heard something about repeatedly plugging/unplugging that cord wears it out (or something like that, not exactly sure what it was). Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. Is that not a concern?
That is correct, however the type of charger you would be connecting to one of these is not one that you are likely to be unplugging regularly.

I understand the appeal of an outlet, but we went with a hardwired Juicebox because it was installed in a fairly conspicuous location on the exterior of our garage, and hardwiring was able to be done much neater than an outlet. I also think of this as a permanent installation so there is no reason it shouldn't be hard wired.

I like everything about the Juicebox except for the charging cord which is a bit overly heavy and stiff, especially in cold weather.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by TomatoTomahto »

onourway wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:28 am I like everything about the Juicebox except for the charging cord which is a bit overly heavy and stiff, especially in cold weather.
To paraphrase The Wolf, "the better to charge you with, my dear." If you have a chance to visit a Tesla Supercharger, notice how heavy, short, and inflexible those cords are.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by onourway »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:15 am
onourway wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:28 am I like everything about the Juicebox except for the charging cord which is a bit overly heavy and stiff, especially in cold weather.
To paraphrase The Wolf, "the better to charge you with, my dear." If you have a chance to visit a Tesla Supercharger, notice how heavy, short, and inflexible those cords are.
For sure! The problem with the Juicebox is that it's heavy and stiff and 20' long! And it only carries 40 amps. My understanding is that competitive options are better on this front, which is why I mention it.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by margaritaville »

If you do go plug-in, I'd recommend making sure your electrician installs a quality/rugged receptacle.

The Leviton 14-50 receptacle is around $15, but it's really best for things like ranges where you won't be plugging/unplugging on a frequent basis and wearing the components.

People that install EV chargers for a living recommend Hubbell or Bryant 14-50 receptacles as they're built to handle being used. I believe the Bryant will run you around $50 from Grainger and the Hubbell is closer to $100. I've read that they're nearly identical.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

You need to do a little more research, including questions you didn't ask here - like "How do I charge when I go to my in-laws 400 miles away?" Another example is that different EVs are able to charge at different maximum currents. My (econobox) 2021 Chevy Bolt can only max out at 32 amps in my garage, but I set my EVSE to 24 amps to "baby" the battery and (maybe) extend its life. I personally don't want a Tesla, but their charging rate on the highway is much higher (i.e. faster) than most other cars.

I love my Grizzl-E (Canadian-made, UL and CSE listed, integral GFCI) EVSE, and I paid a little extra for an "extra flexible" cord, which was well worth it! However, I chose the base level model because I don't want to use my cellphone or to have a "relationship" with my EVSE. I want to plug it in and go inside. But the need to set internal DIP switches on this Grizzle-E is a dealbreaker for many potential customers. (They preset them for you if you buy new from the mfr, free FedEx from Canada.) I unplug it once a quarter to wipe imaginary corrosion from the plug pins! I like that the Grizzl-E is in a bullet-proof seeming cast aluminum box, with a mounting bracket that allows air to circulate behind it. (All EVSE's get warm while charging, even though they have only a little bit of electronics in them.) It's rain-rated, although mine is entirely inside the garage, beside the NEMA 14-50 I installed myself, with a 50 Amp breaker.

I personally think it's good to think about the J1772 insertion and removal process. I handled big plugs a lot in my job, and you want to make an effort to apply force axially and not sideways. It's tricky to press down on the latch release, and pull at 90 degrees at the same time.
Last edited by crefwatch on Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by delamer »

ChargePoint won’t let you set the charging amperage, despite the instructions on the app. It defaults to the lowest value.

Apparently, they discontinued the option when some users burnt out their chargers by setting the amperage too high.

I discovered all this after we had one installed.

We were able to get a satisfactory (if not optimal) setting by doing a reboot using the app. But to get the specific setting that you want, you have to get on the phone with their customer service.

So people who don’t read instructions screwed things up for everyone else. But it is just as irritating that the instructions haven”t been updated, and this has been known for many months.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
clutchied
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by clutchied »

I would hardwire a Chargepoint or Grizzl-e or maybe a clipper creek EVSE into my garage @ 48 amps (60 amp breaker and wire).


If you can set amperage in your car you're golden.

Now you just need to decide if you want a smart EVSE or not. Juicebox are off my list due to continued failures.


the 14-50 socket crew; HARD PASS; people are burning their sockets and having all kinds of issues. You'll never move your charger.
Hardwire is more efficient and SAFER. I put in a 6/50 socket and I would NOT do it again.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

I don't charge every day, but I put in a Home Depot level 14-50 and have had zero heating issues in male or female side, in 20 months of ownership. As I wrote, however, I charge at 24 Amps/240V at home. The charger and the circuit breaker both get warmer than the plug or socket. Grizzl-E, molded plastic plug.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by WestCoastPhan »

I guess I don't understand the plugging/unplugging issue with a 14-50. I had a Tesla Model S from March 2018 to October 2021 and I used the mobile connector plugged into a 14-50 outlet. I never unplugged it once. Then, after my Tesla was totaled, I got a Mach-e in March 2022 and an ID4 in July 2022. I plugged the mobile Ford charger into the 14-50 outlet and I use that for both the Mach-e and the ID4. I have never unplugged it. It's not clear to me why I would.

Over Christmas I'll be taking the Mach-e to my in-laws, 425 miles away. It's only a few days, and I'm just planning to charge at the Electrify America charging station in their town -- I'm certainly not going to try to use a 120V outlet in their garage.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by stan1 »

We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022. You might want to look at and drive both. Prices on both have gone up. We are so glad we went with the EQS. The Lucid has a very low ground clearance which would have struck the ground on multiple ingress and egress points into our development, driveway and garage. The ride on the Mercedes is great with its air suspension and is a good blend between sport and comfort, it does not feel like a land yacht at all, and turning radius for a large car is fantastic because the rear wheels turn. Interiors are personal preference but we don't find the EQS interior to be stodgy at all, we did not get the full width electronic dash. We did not get the dual motor model but even without it acceleration and performance is acceptable for our needs.

We put in a plug-in ChargePoint. Since we had to run conduit to get 240V on the other side of the garage from the breaker panel anyways it just seemed reasonable to put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet. We never unplug the ChargePoint from the outlet (would only do so if it needed repair or replacement).

We charge overnight on a time of use plan (midnight to 6 AM).
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by just frank »

Good answers. Plan on leaving your 'everyday EVSE' hung on the wall, and plugged in. This can be your portable for now. There is little reason for driving around with an EVSE in an EV everyday.

If you want a fancier EVSE for everyday, get one and swap out the portable. You can then put the portable in the vehicle if you want.

If you like to use the portable everyday, and are nervous and want an ESVE in the car, get a cheap $200 one from amazon. And then never use it.

If you have relatives that don't have an EVSE that are far enough away that you want to charge there, THEN you can bring an EVSE with you. AKA the term 'granny cable'. Unless they have a 240V outlet in their garage (none of mine do) that $200 EVSE will be the best you can do anyway.

Fun fact: there is really VERY LITTLE inside an EVSE box. It is basically a glorified GFI unit, with a little circuit to tell the car how much juice it can pull, and a solid state relay to connect/disconnect the juice when it is plugged in/out. AS a result there is NO high voltage on the connector except when it is plugged into a suitable EV. Very safe.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Bogle7 »

lkjhj wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:20 pmI need to figure out what kind of charger to have in my garage.
You are not installing a charger, you are installing an EVSE.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Normchad »

WestCoastPhan wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:38 pm I guess I don't understand the plugging/unplugging issue with a 14-50. I had a Tesla Model S from March 2018 to October 2021 and I used the mobile connector plugged into a 14-50 outlet. I never unplugged it once. Then, after my Tesla was totaled, I got a Mach-e in March 2022 and an ID4 in July 2022. I plugged the mobile Ford charger into the 14-50 outlet and I use that for both the Mach-e and the ID4. I have never unplugged it. It's not clear to me why I would.

Over Christmas I'll be taking the Mach-e to my in-laws, 425 miles away. It's only a few days, and I'm just planning to charge at the Electrify America charging station in their town -- I'm certainly not going to try to use a 120V outlet in their garage.
I agree with you. I never unplug it. Just like I never unplug my clothes dryer. I did however buy the expensive Hubble receptacle from Amazon.

I just never take my charging cable with me, because there is no place else for me to use it. If I had a cabin or a second home, then I’d probably just buy a second cable…..

I whole heartedly recommend going the plug-in route. If your charger dies someday, you can replace it yourself without calling the electrician back in.
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lkjhj
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

Thanks for all the replies. More questions:

1. Will the mobile charging cord that comes with the Lucid charge a different EV should the need arise?

2. What are the advantages of buying an EVSE vs just using the cord that comes with the Lucid?

3. Is there any reason why I would need a charging cord in the car. Based on the usage of my current ICE vehicle, there are zero times in the last 7 years where I would have needed to charge outside the home. We have an ICE minivan that we will be using for road trips. Nevertheless, even if I did need to charge at an Electrify America (or similar) at some point, I don't need any cables or adapters for that, right?
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lkjhj
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

stan1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022. You might want to look at and drive both. Prices on both have gone up. We are so glad we went with the EQS. The Lucid has a very low ground clearance which would have struck the ground on multiple ingress and egress points into our development, driveway and garage. The ride on the Mercedes is great with its air suspension and is a good blend between sport and comfort, it does not feel like a land yacht at all, and turning radius for a large car is fantastic because the rear wheels turn. Interiors are personal preference but we don't find the EQS interior to be stodgy at all, we did not get the full width electronic dash. We did not get the dual motor model but even without it acceleration and performance is acceptable for our needs.

We put in a plug-in ChargePoint. Since we had to run conduit to get 240V on the other side of the garage from the breaker panel anyways it just seemed reasonable to put in a NEMA 14-50 outlet. We never unplug the ChargePoint from the outlet (would only do so if it needed repair or replacement).

We charge overnight on a time of use plan (midnight to 6 AM).
Thanks for the tip. I'll check out the EQS.
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just frank
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by just frank »

lkjhj wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm Thanks for all the replies. More questions:

1. Will the mobile charging cord that comes with the Lucid charge a different EV should the need arise?
Yes. All non-Tesla EVs sold in North America use the same physical and electrical connector, J-1772 for L1 (120V) and L2 (240V) charging. So yes, unless you want to charge a Tesla. If you buy another non-Tesla EV it will still work fine.

The Tesla L2 standard is electrically very similar to J-1772, but has a different physical plug, so an 'adapter' like a giant dongle exists. A visiting friend with a Tesla might have such an adapter to use your EVSE. Or they might show up with a portable EVSE that can plug into your 14-50 plug.
lkjhj wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm 2. What are the advantages of buying an EVSE vs just using the cord that comes with the Lucid?
The primary feature is POWER, in kiliowatt, or amps. kilowatts is amps * 0.24. Portable EVSEs usually have lower power (and lighter/thinner cables) than higher power units, and are cheaper. EV charge time from empty is kilowatt hours of your battery divided by the kilowatts of the EVSE. e.g. 60 kWh/ 6 kW = 10 hours. Ofc, in that example, if you charged it every few days when it was half charged, it would only take 5 hours.

At this point it becomes a matter of taste. Do you want to be able to charge it from empty to full overnight? That will require something like 6-10 kW of power. Or will that never occur, since you are happy to charge it more frequently (more plugging and unplugging).

There are other features, like EVSEs that meter your usage and send it to your smartphone, talk to your utility over wifi, have two cords than can share one plug if you have two EVs to plug in, you name it. But you probably don't need/care about any of that.

If your are not a high-mileage daily commuter, the portable 240V EVSE will probably be fine to start out with. If you want something faster, you can upgrade later.

Important: Until recently most EVs came with low power 120V EVSEs that maxed out at 1.2 kW (and could use a regular plug). While some users find this adequate, most find the charge times onerous, and the need to 'ABC' Always Be Charging a major pain. If you are shopping for different EVs, ask if the EVSE that comes with it is 240V, or a 120V 'granny cable'.
lkjhj wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:40 pm 3. Is there any reason why I would need a charging cord in the car. Based on the usage of my current ICE vehicle, there are zero times in the last 7 years where I would have needed to charge outside the home. We have an ICE minivan that we will be using for road trips. Nevertheless, even if I did need to charge at an Electrify America (or similar) at some point, I don't need any cables or adapters for that, right?
IMO no. The major use is for destination charging at distant destinations that do not have an EVSE. And then you usually find a 120V plug, not a 14-50 240V plug. I don't know if your portable has an adapter to use 120V. I use a 120V portable EVSE when I visit my sister for the weekend... at 1 kW it can recharge my Bolt in the 2.5 days I am staying there, and saving me a DCFC stop on the return trip. (I leave her $20 for the juice). When visiting airBnB's I have often recharged overnight on 120V also, bc my stays usually do NOT have destination chargers, and the locations (rural mountain/beach) are usually not convenient to DCFCs. Yet.

If you are not roadtripping the Lucid, you do not need an EVSE in it. Any more than you need to carry a jerry can in an ICE in case you run out of gas.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

Not disputing the other answers, but there are places (like Maine away from colleges and malls) and Cape Cod, that have little or no DCFC on the road charging. One old friend put a doubled dryer outlet in his garage for me. At a rental house, I bought a 30 A extension cord to reach the dryer from the driveway. If I'd gone to the district court for Level 2 charging (not free) there was no food shop nearby to wait six hours in.

Before the safety committee weighs in, note that using an extension cord once every two years is not the same sin as using it daily. I am a theater electrician, and have been running 50A "extension cords" for 30 years.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by just frank »

crefwatch wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:39 am Not disputing the other answers, but there are places (like Maine away from colleges and malls) and Cape Cod, that have little or no DCFC on the road charging. One old friend put a doubled dryer outlet in his garage for me. At a rental house, I bought a 30 A extension cord to reach the dryer from the driveway. If I'd gone to the district court for Level 2 charging (not free) there was no food shop nearby to wait six hours in.

Before the safety committee weighs in, note that using an extension cord once every two years is not the same sin as using it daily. I am a theater electrician, and have been running 50A "extension cords" for 30 years.
No disputes here. I carry a 25' 12 AWG extension cord for use in L1 charging at destinations at 12A or 1.4kW. The danger in extension cords is wear on the spring contacts and aging of the polymer insulation that can lead it to crack. A lightly used and periodically inspected extension cord with the proper amp rating is FINE.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Afty »

There is a Tesla to J1772 adapter, it is quite small and came with the car when I purchased mine in 2019 (not sure if it’s still included). I leave mine in my trunk so that I can take advantage of free public chargers.

See https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j177 ... ng-adapter
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

stan1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022.
I don't have a Mercedes, but I did read (December, 2022) that some future models will have "maximum acceleration" behind a $1,200 annual subscription paywall! I have not verified that story. Talk about "executive transportation!"
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Big Dog »

mervinj7 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:52 pm Have an electrician install a NEMA 14-50 outlet for now. Your lucid comes with a 40A mobile charging unit that plugs in. See if it works out for you. If not, decide later what to get.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
Don't disagree, but if you are gonna pay to run a line thru the garage, I'd future proof by going with a heavier gauge wire so if you want to upgrade amps in the future, it's easy to replace the 14-50 with a hard-wired connect to the EVSE. (Since labor it the main cost....)

But as others have noted, definitely go with a Heavy Duty receptacle (~$100), which is designed for more plugs/unplugs and heat.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

stan1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022.
I don't have a Mercedes, but I did read (December, 2022) that some future models will have "maximum acceleration" behind a $1,200 annual subscription paywall! I have not verified that story. Talk about "executive transportation!"

Edit: I question the need for future-proofing. But I'm 71. Really, my little Bolt (259 miles nominal, locked at 80% until new battery) already pays the highest NJ registration fee because of the 1000 pound battery. Are we really going to have 500 mile EVs in YOUR lifetime? 40 or 50 amps is plenty for me. How often do you get home after 9PM or leave for work before 6 AM?
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by stan1 »

crefwatch wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:20 am
stan1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022.
I don't have a Mercedes, but I did read (December, 2022) that some future models will have "maximum acceleration" behind a $1,200 annual subscription paywall! I have not verified that story. Talk about "executive transportation!"
Yes, appears they are doing that. What we have meets our needs and we won't be paying more.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

crefwatch wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:10 am
stan1 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:52 pm We cancelled our Lucid Air and got a Mercedes EQS 450+ instead in May 2022.
I don't have a Mercedes, but I did read (December, 2022) that some future models will have "maximum acceleration" behind a $1,200 annual subscription paywall! I have not verified that story. Talk about "executive transportation!"

Edit: I question the need for future-proofing. But I'm 71. Really, my little Bolt (259 miles nominal, locked at 80% until new battery) already pays the highest NJ registration fee because of the 1000 pound battery. Are we really going to have 500 mile EVs in YOUR lifetime? 40 or 50 amps is plenty for me. How often do you get home after 9PM or leave for work before 6 AM?
Not sure which Lucid OP ordered, but if it is the Dream R variant, it is a ~520 mile EV. Completely agree though that the vast majority of people don't need more than 250-300 miles of range and don't require home 240v/40amp charging for their day-to-day needs.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Pdxnative »

If your local utility or govt offers rebates for installation, I’d check their requirements. Some require the EVSE to be hard-wired for a rebate.

Also, be aware that the fed tax credit for these costs is back due to the Inflation Reduction Act this summer. I don’t think hard-wiring is required for that.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

Thanks again for all the replies.

I probably should have mentioned I'm getting a Lucid Air Pure. Not sure if that matters.

At this point, I'm wondering about the whole power issue.

I think I only really need level 2 charging, and it sounds like the cable that comes with the car can do that. But if I want more than that, then I'd need to buy some other EVSE. So what I'm curious about is how much better/faster than level 2 can I do? And what charger should buy to do that. Also will the electrician need to do anything special with the wiring. If I decide to just start with the cable that comes with the car and I want to upgrade to a different EVSE later, is there a certain type of wiring that needs to be in place for that?
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just frank
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by just frank »

You are correct that you want Level 2 (Level 1 being limited to about 1.4 kW max).

But pretty much ALL home chargers in N America are L2, and just differ by power.

You got advice to install a good 14-50 outlet to give flexibility later (you can just use the portable now, and upgrade later without an electrician). the 50 is ofc the amp rating of the outlet, 50 amps. This means that the circuit breaker it is hooked up to is 50 amps. The code rules in the US then say that that circuit can provide 50 amps intermittently, but only 80% of rating in continuous (hours) duty. So you can (max) put on a 40 amp EVSE. 40A * 240V = 9.6 kW. That is the most that you can get from that plug, which is the largest plug that you can get.

Googled around, it looks like the portable EVSE from Lucid is 9.6 kW.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/luci ... or-air-ev/

And the battery is 88 kWh minimum. And the L2 charging speed limits (set by the car hardware) is 19.2 kW.

So... the portable L2 EVSE is already very high power. I have been using a smaller 30A/7kW EVSE happily since 2014. Since it is at the limit for a 14-50 outlet, you will not be able to upgrade to a bigger EVSE later and still use the plug... a larger EVSE needs to be hard wired.

I personally think you will be satisfied with the 9.6 kW portable. That (like the vehicle) is a high-end sweet option. It will charge the car from empty in 8-9 hours (or 12 if you got a bigger battery). In practice, faster than overnight charging from empty is not needed. Like, imagine you get home at 9PM returning from a road trip, and are starting a new road trip the next morning... even then you are covered!

Same link says that Lucid sells a (hardwired) 19.2 kW EVSE, which is larger than 99.9% home L2 EVSEs BTW. Most EVs can't accept that much (my 2022 Bolt only takes 11 kW). That would require a 100 amp breaker in your house (which many houses can't handle). And in that case, you would need a much bigger wire/breaker than the portable 14-50 route, and might have to upgrade your entire house service! I'd say skip it. All it gets you is the ability to charge from empty to full in 4.5 hours rather than 9.

The 14-50 route is standard, and your portable is at its limit.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I’ll respectfully disagree with just frank, not on his facts, which are, um, facts. I installed a Tesla L2 EVSE on a 100A circuit some 5 years ago, and never once have said “man, I wish I’d selected a plug instead.” My Model X can charge at 72A (I don’t believe newer ones can), and I seldom use it at that power, but it’s nice to know that I can. When I “give a charge” to family and friends, they can charge at whatever their L2 max is.

You’re spending a gazillion dollars on your Lucid. Don’t cheap out in the charger.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by delamer »

lkjhj wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:40 am Thanks again for all the replies.

I probably should have mentioned I'm getting a Lucid Air Pure. Not sure if that matters.

At this point, I'm wondering about the whole power issue.

I think I only really need level 2 charging, and it sounds like the cable that comes with the car can do that. But if I want more than that, then I'd need to buy some other EVSE. So what I'm curious about is how much better/faster than level 2 can I do? And what charger should buy to do that. Also will the electrician need to do anything special with the wiring. If I decide to just start with the cable that comes with the car and I want to upgrade to a different EVSE later, is there a certain type of wiring that needs to be in place for that?
I may be misunderstanding your question, but all of the home chargers (Level 2) that we looked into came with their own cable.

So you’ll end up with the cable that comes with the vehicle (which we keep in our vehicle, at my husband’s insistence, in case of a charging “emergency” :D), plus the cable that stays attached to your home charger that plugs directly into the vehicle.

If you charge at a Level 3 station in the road, the cable attached to the machine will plug directly into your vehicle.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
cmr79
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

OP's question about which level 2 charging he should plan for (9.6 kW via a NEMA14-50 outlet on a 240v 50A circuit with the included plugged EVSE vs 19.2 kW on a hardwired $1200 Lucid EVSE with a 240v 100A circuit) has two main parts that need to be addressed separately for an actionable answer.

1. Does OP anticipate needing the higher home charging speed? If so, the answer is easy; go with the hardwired higher-power Lucid EVSE despite a higher cost. The included 9.6 kW EVSE should give OP about 45 miles per hour of charging vs 90 for the higher-powered hardwired version, so to "need" the higher charging speed, OP would need to have significant frequent back-to-back daily driving needs with minimal time at home in between. As just frank mentioned, you would need to have under 8 hours at home to charge overnight before leaving in the morning with back-to-back days of driving 400 miles. That would be an unusual use case. Infrequent travel needs like this would likely be better accomplished by level 3 DCFC on the road.

2. If OP doesn't need the faster EVSE and charging capabilities, perhaps they just want it like TomatoTomahto to be reassured that they have it available. In that case, they can weigh that benefit against the cost. The high powered Lucid EVSE costs $1200, and OP would need to upgrade their circuit panel if they can't accommodate an additional 100A 240v breaker (likely a $2-3k cost), and the 1 gauge wire for 100 amp service will be significantly more expensive than 6 gauge for 50 amp service, though this may not matter much if OP's panel is in the garage close to where the EVSE would be installed.

I can't value OP's peace of mind, but for me personally, I would only consider the hardwired 19.2 kW EVSE if I would already have to upgrade the panel to add a 50-60 amp 240v breaker, if I absolutely did not want to use the included plug-in charger (either because I was convinced I needed to bring it on the road for "emergencies" or because I absolutely wanted a hardwired EVSE anyway), AND if I was definitely going to get the Lucid or--if not the Lucid--a Porsche Taycan, which can charge similarly quickly with an optional $1600 on board charger upgrade. If cost isn't an issue, though, this is about as future proof as it gets right now.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by TomatoTomahto »

cmr79 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:01 am [snip...]
2. If OP doesn't need the faster EVSE and charging capabilities, perhaps they just want it like TomatoTomahto to be reassured that they have it available. In that case, they can weigh that benefit against the cost. The high powered Lucid EVSE costs $1200, and OP would need to upgrade their circuit panel if they can't accommodate an additional 100A 240v breaker (likely a $2-3k cost), and the 1 gauge wire for 100 amp service will be significantly more expensive than 6 gauge for 50 amp service, though this may not matter much if OP's panel is in the garage close to where the EVSE would be installed.
I'm not sure what I'd have done if I needed to upgrade our circuits, but my theory was that I'd already paid extra for the dual charger version of my X (long story) and would have felt silly not giving it the juice it can handle. Also, we had just bought a house with solar and I was feeling "electrically promiscuous." :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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lkjhj
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

cmr79 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:01 am OP's question about which level 2 charging he should plan for (9.6 kW via a NEMA14-50 outlet on a 240v 50A circuit with the included plugged EVSE vs 19.2 kW on a hardwired $1200 Lucid EVSE with a 240v 100A circuit) has two main parts that need to be addressed separately for an actionable answer.

1. Does OP anticipate needing the higher home charging speed? If so, the answer is easy; go with the hardwired higher-power Lucid EVSE despite a higher cost. The included 9.6 kW EVSE should give OP about 45 miles per hour of charging vs 90 for the higher-powered hardwired version, so to "need" the higher charging speed, OP would need to have significant frequent back-to-back daily driving needs with minimal time at home in between. As just frank mentioned, you would need to have under 8 hours at home to charge overnight before leaving in the morning with back-to-back days of driving 400 miles. That would be an unusual use case. Infrequent travel needs like this would likely be better accomplished by level 3 DCFC on the road.

2. If OP doesn't need the faster EVSE and charging capabilities, perhaps they just want it like TomatoTomahto to be reassured that they have it available. In that case, they can weigh that benefit against the cost. The high powered Lucid EVSE costs $1200, and OP would need to upgrade their circuit panel if they can't accommodate an additional 100A 240v breaker (likely a $2-3k cost), and the 1 gauge wire for 100 amp service will be significantly more expensive than 6 gauge for 50 amp service, though this may not matter much if OP's panel is in the garage close to where the EVSE would be installed.

I can't value OP's peace of mind, but for me personally, I would only consider the hardwired 19.2 kW EVSE if I would already have to upgrade the panel to add a 50-60 amp 240v breaker, if I absolutely did not want to use the included plug-in charger (either because I was convinced I needed to bring it on the road for "emergencies" or because I absolutely wanted a hardwired EVSE anyway), AND if I was definitely going to get the Lucid or--if not the Lucid--a Porsche Taycan, which can charge similarly quickly with an optional $1600 on board charger upgrade. If cost isn't an issue, though, this is about as future proof as it gets right now.
Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for. So if I'm understanding you correctly, the best I can improve over level 2 charging is to just go twice as fast. If that's all then I'm not sure it's worth the extra cost for me. I can't think of too many instances where the difference between X and 2X hours is going to make a difference for me.
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lkjhj
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by lkjhj »

just frank wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 5:09 am You are correct that you want Level 2 (Level 1 being limited to about 1.4 kW max).

But pretty much ALL home chargers in N America are L2, and just differ by power.

You got advice to install a good 14-50 outlet to give flexibility later (you can just use the portable now, and upgrade later without an electrician). the 50 is ofc the amp rating of the outlet, 50 amps. This means that the circuit breaker it is hooked up to is 50 amps. The code rules in the US then say that that circuit can provide 50 amps intermittently, but only 80% of rating in continuous (hours) duty. So you can (max) put on a 40 amp EVSE. 40A * 240V = 9.6 kW. That is the most that you can get from that plug, which is the largest plug that you can get.

Googled around, it looks like the portable EVSE from Lucid is 9.6 kW.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/luci ... or-air-ev/

And the battery is 88 kWh minimum. And the L2 charging speed limits (set by the car hardware) is 19.2 kW.

So... the portable L2 EVSE is already very high power. I have been using a smaller 30A/7kW EVSE happily since 2014. Since it is at the limit for a 14-50 outlet, you will not be able to upgrade to a bigger EVSE later and still use the plug... a larger EVSE needs to be hard wired.

I personally think you will be satisfied with the 9.6 kW portable. That (like the vehicle) is a high-end sweet option. It will charge the car from empty in 8-9 hours (or 12 if you got a bigger battery). In practice, faster than overnight charging from empty is not needed. Like, imagine you get home at 9PM returning from a road trip, and are starting a new road trip the next morning... even then you are covered!

Same link says that Lucid sells a (hardwired) 19.2 kW EVSE, which is larger than 99.9% home L2 EVSEs BTW. Most EVs can't accept that much (my 2022 Bolt only takes 11 kW). That would require a 100 amp breaker in your house (which many houses can't handle). And in that case, you would need a much bigger wire/breaker than the portable 14-50 route, and might have to upgrade your entire house service! I'd say skip it. All it gets you is the ability to charge from empty to full in 4.5 hours rather than 9.

The 14-50 route is standard, and your portable is at its limit.
Thanks. This is the thought process I was trying to work through.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by suemarkp »

You will most likely never have a level 3 charger at home, as residential electric services are just not that large. Even a level 2 charger that is 20kw or more could be problematic. My house, and the neighbor, share a 25 kva (kilowatt) transformer and we both have "200 amp" services. But the power company knows we have a lot of gas appliances so we have limited crippled 200A services. An 80 amp continuous car charger could likely blow up that transformer. In my area, this type of power distribution is considered normal. If you need to upsize the transformer or wires from the street, that is abnormal and they charge a lot to upgrade.

Also, i would want either a Square D QO or Eaton CH brand panel for a 50 amp or larger car charger. Most residential loads are 40 amps or less and noncontinuous. Car chargers are continuous and a poor breaker to bus connection, or a corroded aluminum bus, can burn up the breaker panel bus stabs. So evaluate you panel. If it is a crappy one, replace it with a good one with a copper bus. If an OK one, make sure the 50A breaker is the type listed for the panel. Many will "fit" but they dont connect well to the bus.

So you can go to the max if you want to, but be prepared to pay $5K or more to make it happen.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Valuethinker »

WestCoastPhan wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:38 pm I guess I don't understand the plugging/unplugging issue with a 14-50. I had a Tesla Model S from March 2018 to October 2021 and I used the mobile connector plugged into a 14-50 outlet. I never unplugged it once. Then, after my Tesla was totaled, I got a Mach-e in March 2022 and an ID4 in July 2022. I plugged the mobile Ford charger into the 14-50 outlet and I use that for both the Mach-e and the ID4. I have never unplugged it. It's not clear to me why I would.

Over Christmas I'll be taking the Mach-e to my in-laws, 425 miles away. It's only a few days, and I'm just planning to charge at the Electrify America charging station in their town -- I'm certainly not going to try to use a 120V outlet in their garage.
I would be very interested to hear your comparative experiences of Tesla Model S v Mach-e & ID4?

Pluses and minuses. Tesla has (many) rabid fans but I am painfully aware of the limitations. Conversely there are downsides to the VW -- I gather the in-flight entertainment software leaves something to be desired.

If you have posted on this previously in this Forum in another thread I can look it up so tell me if you have.
cmr79
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

lkjhj wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:39 pm
cmr79 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:01 am OP's question about which level 2 charging he should plan for (9.6 kW via a NEMA14-50 outlet on a 240v 50A circuit with the included plugged EVSE vs 19.2 kW on a hardwired $1200 Lucid EVSE with a 240v 100A circuit) has two main parts that need to be addressed separately for an actionable answer.

1. Does OP anticipate needing the higher home charging speed? If so, the answer is easy; go with the hardwired higher-power Lucid EVSE despite a higher cost. The included 9.6 kW EVSE should give OP about 45 miles per hour of charging vs 90 for the higher-powered hardwired version, so to "need" the higher charging speed, OP would need to have significant frequent back-to-back daily driving needs with minimal time at home in between. As just frank mentioned, you would need to have under 8 hours at home to charge overnight before leaving in the morning with back-to-back days of driving 400 miles. That would be an unusual use case. Infrequent travel needs like this would likely be better accomplished by level 3 DCFC on the road.

2. If OP doesn't need the faster EVSE and charging capabilities, perhaps they just want it like TomatoTomahto to be reassured that they have it available. In that case, they can weigh that benefit against the cost. The high powered Lucid EVSE costs $1200, and OP would need to upgrade their circuit panel if they can't accommodate an additional 100A 240v breaker (likely a $2-3k cost), and the 1 gauge wire for 100 amp service will be significantly more expensive than 6 gauge for 50 amp service, though this may not matter much if OP's panel is in the garage close to where the EVSE would be installed.

I can't value OP's peace of mind, but for me personally, I would only consider the hardwired 19.2 kW EVSE if I would already have to upgrade the panel to add a 50-60 amp 240v breaker, if I absolutely did not want to use the included plug-in charger (either because I was convinced I needed to bring it on the road for "emergencies" or because I absolutely wanted a hardwired EVSE anyway), AND if I was definitely going to get the Lucid or--if not the Lucid--a Porsche Taycan, which can charge similarly quickly with an optional $1600 on board charger upgrade. If cost isn't an issue, though, this is about as future proof as it gets right now.
Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for. So if I'm understanding you correctly, the best I can improve over level 2 charging is to just go twice as fast. If that's all then I'm not sure it's worth the extra cost for me. I can't think of too many instances where the difference between X and 2X hours is going to make a difference for me.
Others have clarified this, but just to be clear:
Both the included Lucid plug-in EVSE and the hardwired high-power 19.2 kW EVSE are level 2 chargers and utilize 240v AC current.

Level 3 charging is commercial and utilizes high voltage (~400-800 volts typically), high amperage (Tesla's newest version can pull up to 900 amps continuously apparently) current supplying a minimum of 50kW but often >250 kW. You probably can't get this kind of electrical service in a residential setting, and the cost would be prohibitive (around $100k) even if you somehow could.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

I went with a basic, no frills(blue tooth etc) Grizzle-e charger because the quality of internal wiring seems much higher quality than some others I've seen. To me, this matters with something that will have 6,000-10,000 watts/20-40 amps running through it for hours and hours in your garage, maybe under the bedroom of a family member.

From InsideEvs:
https://insideevs.com/news/426618/grizz ... er-review/

Grizzle-e unit is on the right:

Image

My electrician installed my charger with a 50 amp circuit and wiring for about $350, about 30 feet from my breaker box.

The fastest our EV charges on level 2 is about 7.5kW, which is lower than what the Grizzle can deliver. Still, we fully charge in about 2 hours from our 60 mile daily commute. After a point, I don't think faster is better for home use. Fast enough is, well, fast enough. Honestly, we could probably charge at 3kW and never have a problem.
Last edited by TravellingTechOnFire on Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Diluted Waters
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Diluted Waters »

You may wish to investigate adequate automatic fire suppression for the garage.

A neighbor's garage within sight of our home caught on fire reportedly from an EV charging operation and, because the garage was on the bottom level of a two-story home, it could have burned the home down. Fire services were successful in confining the fire to the garage and what's left of the car. They were at the house for hours. No one was hurt.

I haven't confirmed this but other reports I've seen assert that electric vehicle fires can be very difficult to extinguish and take tremendous quantities of water, and can re-ignite even long after they appear out.
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by crefwatch »

Diluted waters, are you aware that ICE cars catch fire at a higher per-miles-driven rate than EV's? Who is it that "reported" how the fire started?
cmr79
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

Also, EVSE-related "fires" are typically plastic from cheap NEMA outlets that weren't intended to withstand sustained current draw or repeated plugging/unplugging cycles melting and/or slightly burning. There are a number of these cases reported, but very few of them caused significant damage beyond the immediate vicinity of the outlet itself--the concern about lithium ion battery fires on EVs is a completely different thing that also is extremely rare, but rather than EVSEs is related to battery manufacturing defects, especially in certain Jaguar I-Pace and Bolt EVs (where the battery management software was probably also at fault).

EVSE-related fires can essentially be eliminated by hardwiring, or if installing a plug-in versions, by using a high-quality outlet (Hubbell, Bryant, etc) and not repeatedly plugging/unplugging the EVSE.
Old Guy
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Old Guy »

I use a grizzle e dumb charger. I had an electrician wire in a NEMA in the garage. That was expensive, over a $1,000.
cmr79
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

Old Guy wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:28 am I use a grizzle e dumb charger. I had an electrician wire in a NEMA in the garage. That was expensive, over a $1,000.
My electrician costs were similar, also for a Grizzl-e "dumb" charger. We had to replace an old 50 amp breaker and do a ~75 ft wire run from the opposite side of the basement through a crawlspace and up into the garage. A significant chunk of the cost was the wire alone!
Diluted Waters
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by Diluted Waters »

crefwatch wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:51 am Diluted waters, are you aware that ICE cars catch fire at a higher per-miles-driven rate than EV's? Who is it that "reported" how the fire started?
Thanks for your comment. Quantitatively, what is ‘higher?’ What is your source for your statistic?

I’m aware ICE cars catch fire. My wife’s car caught fire and was totaled from it, so it’s a fact well known to me from personal experience. That’s beside my point.

The individual reporting on the fire was the victim’s immediate next-door neighbor, who spoke to the victim about the fire.

My point is building codes may have contemplated garage fires involving ICE cars and liquid fuels, but not those involving lithium batteries that may be more difficult to extinguish. Therefore, it may be prudent to consider appropriate fire protection for indoor storage and charging locations.

This was not a comment on the value of electric cars.
cmr79
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Re: Questions about installing a new EV charger in my garage

Post by cmr79 »

Diluted Waters wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:49 am
crefwatch wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:51 am Diluted waters, are you aware that ICE cars catch fire at a higher per-miles-driven rate than EV's? Who is it that "reported" how the fire started?
Thanks for your comment. Quantitatively, what is ‘higher?’ What is your source for your statistic?

I’m aware ICE cars catch fire. My wife’s car caught fire and was totaled from it, so it’s a fact well known to me from personal experience. That’s beside my point.

The individual reporting on the fire was the victim’s immediate next-door neighbor, who spoke to the victim about the fire.

My point is building codes may have contemplated garage fires involving ICE cars and liquid fuels, but not those involving lithium batteries that may be more difficult to extinguish. Therefore, it may be prudent to consider appropriate fire protection for indoor storage and charging locations.

This was not a comment on the value of electric cars.
This doesn't directly answer the question on a per mile basis, but rather on a per vehicle sold basis:
https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs- ... car-fires/

There are methodological problems with this, but overall, the point that EV fires are pretty rare compared to ICE fires (but certainly more difficult to put out for firefighters).

I don't think a residential garage would withstand either an EV or ICE catching on fire without catastrophic consequences. If you have a auto enthusiast garage with a bunch of professional-grade equipment and a fire suppression system, probably worth considering whether it is adequate for an EV battery fire, however if you plan on working on EVs, especially those that might have battery damage (people who salvage and resell vehicles as a hobby, for example).

Not sure any of this is relevant or actionable to OP.
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