LTCI vs CCRC?

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4thand11
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LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by 4thand11 »

Wife and I have no kids and are both in our mid-50s. Trying to plan for retirement and making sure our healthcare needs are covered is a big priority. Have been trying to research CCRCs vs LTCI and was wondering if anyone had done the same and what decision they had made. As we have no heirs preserving money to pass on is not a top priority. The pros and cons of each that I can see so far:

LTCI pros: most flexibile in that we can stay in our home or move anywhere we want. Allows for in-home care if needed. Up-front cost is less than buying into a CCRC. Some have a life insurance component that would allow us to leave money to our family members or charitable causes we care about, if we never need the policy (as I mentioned we have no kids so not a top priority, but would be nice).
LTCI cons: May never need it, use it or lose it (except for the hybrid policies that have a life insurance component as I mentioned). I know there are also hybrid annuity/LTCI policies but I haven't really researched them. Inflation protection on LTCI policies is very expensive and it's tough to know how much money we could potentially need 30+ years from now. Worries about running out of coverage or buying too much/too little.

CCRC pros: One-stop shopping in that it includes independent housing, assisted living, and nursing home/memory care if needed. If one partner needs care you are both on the same campus and near each other. Some of these communities look very nice and have lots of activities, clubs, etc. like a standard 55+ community. Many also include lots of services (for a hefty fee of course) such as transportation, meals, house cleaning, landscaping, etc. More cost certainty if long-term care is needed although monthly fees can go up so still need to budget for increases.
CCRC cons: huge up-front cost (the nicer ones I've looked at range from half a million up to well over a million). A percentage of this is refundable to heirs upon death but it still represents a massive outlay. Monthly fees are very very high (at least at the higher-end communities). Have to commit to this essentially being the last move of your life. Care in the future is dependent on the financial health of the community you choose, and you are dependent on the facility that is located on that campus. Having never lived in any type of senior community, not sure how my wife or I would like living with just old people. Not sure how much would miss having all ages in the neighborhood (or course this would be true if we moved to any 55+ commmunity not just a CCRC).

Has anyone debated this decision and gone one way or the other? If so what were the major factors? Thanks in advance for any input or notice of any important points I am missing.
afan
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by afan »

I have not dealt with this for us but helped an older person who went to a CCRC. I do not view these as "either/or." They are solutions to two different problems.

LTCI addresses the cost of care but provides no solution about where to live. With LTCI you get money to pay for your care but you are on your own figure out where to live, who will provide services, maintenance ofyour home, etc.

CCRC solves the problem of where to live. You get a lot of services built in to the community and have others available for extra fees. Yes, they are expensive but you no longer have to maintain a house. CCRC fees do not cover all medical costs by any means. If you try to reproduce the senior-friendly environment of a CCRC at home it is very expensive. If you need 24 hour staff onsite at home, that is costly.

LTCI typically has a limited total value. Limits in dollar amounts covered and number of years. People rarely live in nursing homes for 5 years or more. Even if this were to happen, the LTCI would not pay an unlimited amount of money. People who move into CCRCs relatively young can be there for decades.

CCRC: a place to live with help moving to higher level of care as needed. Assurance the nursing home will accommodate you if needed. No need to shop for where to go. No responsibility for upkeep on the buildings and grounds. Predictable costs.

LTCI: pays for some expenses if you need this sort of care.
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smitcat
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by smitcat »

"Has anyone debated this decision and gone one way or the other?"
Yes - we are not interested in CCRC's due to most of the cons you have already listed.
Topic Author
4thand11
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by 4thand11 »

Another pro of CCRC that I neglected to mention, is a peace of mind that my wife would be taken care of after I die. She would be in a community, have access to friends, activities, and a community around her to fight loneliness. Again some of these could be provided in a standard 55+ community, but the CCRC includes on-site nursing/memory care etc. which helps bring some peace of mind should she ever need it and be on her own.

It is just hard to quantify the cost/value proposition of these CCRCs. For example I looked at a high-end facility in California. Cheapest buy-in for a 1-BR 1-Ba condo was in the neighborhood of $550k. (To be fair this is partly refundable at death and real estate in this area of the country is astronomical anyway). Monthly fees were somewhere around $5k(!) per month. The place looks beautiful and there are tons of glowing testimonials from residents on their site. But that is really, really expensive. We'd essentially be taking most of our nest egg and handing it over to them. So trying to quantify how much that peace of mind is worth, is difficult.
RudyS
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by RudyS »

We moved to a "high end" CCRC just before COVID. We are very happy with our decision, because of all the positives mentioned above. Depending on health issues, our kids might get most of the buy-in price back, as well as the rest of our nest egg. FYI, we are 82 and 86 but still active.

This was never a LTCi versus CCRC decision. We had planned to "self-pay" LTC if/when the time came, till we heard about CCRCs here on Bogleheads. That made us go ahead and make the move. Advice - based on experiences of others here - better to move 5 years too soon than 5 minutes too late.
delamer
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by delamer »

Since you don’t have children, who would coordinate care for you at home if you needed it?

You don’t want to be in a position where an 85-year-old is trying to arrange care for a 87-year-old.

It’s a difficult thing to do even for younger people. And the more care needed, the harder it gets.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
stan1
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by stan1 »

My opinion that won't be shared by all: CCRCs start to look better around age 82-85. Yes they do require a medical exam to enter but they also need to fill their rooms. If you can find a new construction CCRC that has a lot of people coming in between 65 and 80 that's probably an exception. In general most healthy 70 year olds won't want to be around a lot of unhealthy people in their 90s. It is depressing.

As for who will coordinate care? It is harder if you don't have children, but will a younger sibling, cousin or nieces/nephews inherit your estate? If so, expect them to work to earn their inheritance. There are truly special friends and neighbors who will assist with no expectation of compensation (I've had several family members need to do this). Living next door to a retired nurse is a secret tip. If you really are at the point where you'd have no choice but to hire a professional fiduciary then I'd agree a CCRC might have slight preference.

The con of LTCI you don't list is rate increases. It's an unstable business model and the higher the rates get the more self selection there is with people buying LTCI who are likely to be long lived and have more long term care needs.

I see CCRCs like a long term luxury cruise. They are quite nice if you can afford one, and if you like being on a luxury ship with your fellow luxury ship passengers. But unlike a two week cruise, you can't say "it was a nice 14 days" but I'm ready to come home. With a CCRC you are home and returning to the final port isn't quite the same.
delamer
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by delamer »

stan1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:17 pm My opinion that won't be shared by all: CCRCs start to look better around age 82-85. Yes they do require a medical exam to enter but they also need to fill their rooms. If you can find a new construction CCRC that has a lot of people coming in between 65 and 80 that's probably an exception. In general most healthy 70 year olds won't want to be around a lot of unhealthy people in their 90s. It is depressing.

As for who will coordinate care? It is harder if you don't have children, but will a younger sibling, cousin or nieces/nephews inherit your estate? If so, expect them to work to earn their inheritance. There are truly special friends and neighbors who will assist with no expectation of compensation (I've had several family members need to do this). Living next door to a retired nurse is a secret tip. If you really are at the point where you'd have no choice but to hire a professional fiduciary then I'd agree a CCRC might have slight preference.

The con of LTCI you don't list is rate increases. It's an unstable business model and the higher the rates get the more self selection there is with people buying LTCI who are likely to be long lived and have more long term care needs.

I see CCRCs like a long term luxury cruise. They are quite nice if you can afford one, and if you like being on a luxury ship with your fellow luxury ship passengers. But unlike a two week cruise, you can't say "it was a nice 14 days" but I'm ready to come home. With a CCRC you are home.
I agree about the age issue and CCRCs. Barring medical necessity, I wouldn’t move to one before my late 70’s.

But there are CCRCs that wouldn’t fit in the luxury category. The one my parents lived in was all apartments with one large dining room (dinner included in fees), one smaller cafe, and a couple of activity rooms. There were scheduled activities and trips. No pool, no tennis or pickleball courts, no villas, etc. Food was good, but not high end. It met their needs, but it was definitely a middle-class vibe.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
stan1
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by stan1 »

delamer wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:29 pm
stan1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:17 pm My opinion that won't be shared by all: CCRCs start to look better around age 82-85. Yes they do require a medical exam to enter but they also need to fill their rooms. If you can find a new construction CCRC that has a lot of people coming in between 65 and 80 that's probably an exception. In general most healthy 70 year olds won't want to be around a lot of unhealthy people in their 90s. It is depressing.

As for who will coordinate care? It is harder if you don't have children, but will a younger sibling, cousin or nieces/nephews inherit your estate? If so, expect them to work to earn their inheritance. There are truly special friends and neighbors who will assist with no expectation of compensation (I've had several family members need to do this). Living next door to a retired nurse is a secret tip. If you really are at the point where you'd have no choice but to hire a professional fiduciary then I'd agree a CCRC might have slight preference.

The con of LTCI you don't list is rate increases. It's an unstable business model and the higher the rates get the more self selection there is with people buying LTCI who are likely to be long lived and have more long term care needs.

I see CCRCs like a long term luxury cruise. They are quite nice if you can afford one, and if you like being on a luxury ship with your fellow luxury ship passengers. But unlike a two week cruise, you can't say "it was a nice 14 days" but I'm ready to come home. With a CCRC you are home.
I agree about the age issue and CCRCs. Barring medical necessity, I wouldn’t move to one before my late 70’s.

But there are CCRCs that wouldn’t fit in the luxury category. The one my parents lived in was all apartments with one large dining room (dinner included in fees), one smaller cafe, and a couple of activity rooms. There were scheduled activities and trips. No pool, no tennis or pickleball courts, no villas, etc. Food was good, but not high end. It met their needs, but it was definitely a middle-class vibe.
OK so it's a lifelong cruise on a middle class line like Princess not Seabourn. I'll skip a Carnival analogy since if people want a party vibe in their old age they are probably in The Villages or similar not a typical CCRC.

Also, from what I've seen these properties are all moving into more luxury territory with new construction. There are several that have opened up near where we live in the last several years; all are at the luxury point and none at the middle class point.
rustwood
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by rustwood »

The situation my wife and I are in is very similar to what the OP describes. I had generally been thinking of this as an either/or choice until I discussed it a bit with a planner who specializes in this area. He made a number of good points. First, there is no way to know when you might need LTC. It is relatively unlikely, but we could end up using the coverage in our 60's or 70's (e.g., after a stroke). Also, if either of us have health issues before we are ready for a CCRC, we aren't going to be able to get in and it will be too late to get LTCi. If we carry LTCi until we are in our 70s, we should have a better sense of our general health and whether we can, or want to, move into a CCRC. If/when we are ready to buy into a CCRC, we'd also have the option to keep the LTCi and go with a Type B or C contract instead of a Type A. That would make it much easier to back out if it doesn't suit us.

Given the cost of a decent Type A CCRC, paying LTCi premiums until age 70 or 75 seems relatively minor - even if we end up letting the coverage lapse and never collect on it. I am also interested in an annuity, so now I am thinking about exploring a hybrid annuity/LTCi product (cautiously).
MikeG62
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by MikeG62 »

rustwood wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:37 pm The situation my wife and I are in is very similar to what the OP describes. I had generally been thinking of this as an either/or choice until I discussed it a bit with a planner who specializes in this area. He made a number of good points. First, there is no way to know when you might need LTC. It is relatively unlikely, but we could end up using the coverage in our 60's or 70's (e.g., after a stroke). Also, if either of us have health issues before we are ready for a CCRC, we aren't going to be able to get in and it will be too late to get LTCi. If we carry LTCi until we are in our 70s, we should have a better sense of our general health and whether we can, or want to, move into a CCRC. If/when we are ready to buy into a CCRC, we'd also have the option to keep the LTCi and go with a Type B or C contract instead of a Type A. That would make it much easier to back out if it doesn't suit us.

Given the cost of a decent Type A CCRC, paying LTCi premiums until age 70 or 75 seems relatively minor - even if we end up letting the coverage lapse and never collect on it...
Lot's of excellent points made here.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
InMyDreams
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by InMyDreams »

First and foremost - choose your CCRC wisely.
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/art ... 4164213814

Despite this, I am taking the initial steps to choose one.

This author's book on CCRCs has been recommended before
https://www.amazon.com/Ruth-Alvarez/e/B ... 643&sr=8-2

I've communicated with two CCRCs. Both wanted to know if I had an LTCi. They are not mutually exclusive.
WillRetire
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by WillRetire »

InMyDreams wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:12 pm First and foremost - choose your CCRC wisely.
https://www.advisorperspectives.com/art ... 4164213814

Despite this, I am taking the initial steps to choose one.

This author's book on CCRCs has been recommended before
https://www.amazon.com/Ruth-Alvarez/e/B ... 643&sr=8-2

I've communicated with two CCRCs. Both wanted to know if I had an LTCi. They are not mutually exclusive.
Great information. Thanks!

Regarding your last statement about CCRCs & LTCi not being mutually exclusive, that matches our experience as well. Having the policies strengthens our financial case in the eyes of the CCRCs. Have not attempted to qualify without them, though do understand that qualifying for a lifecare plan at a CCRC is a form of LTC insurance, assuming one really really likes it there and will stay for the duration

We are noticing in our area an increase in new senior retirement communities that have independent living, assisted living, and memory care and no entrance fee except a deposit of about $5K. Fee-for-service.
Topic Author
4thand11
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by 4thand11 »

delamer wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:04 pm Since you don’t have children, who would coordinate care for you at home if you needed it?

You don’t want to be in a position where an 85-year-old is trying to arrange care for a 87-year-old.

It’s a difficult thing to do even for younger people. And the more care needed, the harder it gets.
This is a good point and one I hadn't thought of.
Prudence
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by Prudence »

My wife and I moved to a CCRC in March 2021. My wife likes it here, but I regret the decision and we would not have moved had we known what this would be like (due to all the negatives listed in previous posts and more). We were 50-50 (yes-no) about this decision and a dear friend advised us against this move unless it was a strong "yes". We should have listened to her advice. Bottom line: don't move to a CCRC until over 80. Try to get on a waiting list at age 70 and just wait until you are ready. Finally, if at all possible, when the time comes, instead of a CCRC, try to opt for in-home care instead of a CCRC or AL situation (e.g., keep house or move to a smaller place and have in-home care when required).

I researched LTCI many years ago and determined that it was way too expensive for the benefits provided. Instead, I would save and invest and self-insure against health and other risks.
stan1
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by stan1 »

Prudence wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:11 am My wife and I moved to a CCRC in March 2021. My wife likes it here, but I regret the decision and we would not have moved had we known what this would be like (due to all the negatives listed in previous posts and more). We were 50-50 (yes-no) about this decision and a dear friend advised us against this move unless it was a strong "yes". We should have listened to her advice. Bottom line: don't move to a CCRC until over 80. Try to get on a waiting list at age 70 and just wait until you are ready. Finally, if at all possible, when the time comes, instead of a CCRC, try to opt for in-home care instead of a CCRC or AL situation (e.g., keep house or move to a smaller place and have in-home care when required).
I'm sorry to hear that you aren't happy, I remember the many posts you made leading to your eventual decision.

There's another option in addition to CCRCs and staying in your home: pay as you go for independent living, assisted living and SNF. There are many options for pay as you go at all price levels. We've found that new construction facilities are expensive, and there's a sweet spot of facilities that were built in the 70s or 80s that are well managed that provide good care in a more modest setting. While some will see the possibility of needing to move as a disadvantage, having the flexibility to be ABLE to move if needs change or the management of the current facility changes can also be of benefit. There are options for couples as well as for those who are single or widowed.

For example, in California there are month to month "board and care" homes often in converted single family homes in residential neighborhoods with 6 to 20 beds. I've had several relatives with Alzheimer's and being bed-ridden use these facilities and they I would give them a strong endorsement based off our experiences. The homes my relatives lived in had hands-on ownership, in one case with an owner who lived in the house next door and another with an owner who came to the property regularly, provided top level supervision, and interacted with relatives.
MikeG62
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by MikeG62 »

Prudence wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:11 am My wife and I moved to a CCRC in March 2021. My wife likes it here, but I regret the decision and we would not have moved had we known what this would be like (due to all the negatives listed in previous posts and more)...
Would you mind listing the reasons you regret moving into a CCRC? I've read the pros and cons above, but you state there is more.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
fourwheelcycle
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

Hard to judge how you would like living with older people when you are only in your fifties. I am in my 70s now, and I was on the board of a CCRC during my sixties. The active members of the community were very lively and sociable - actually quite enjoyable to me. My wife and I are on the waiting list and plan to move there in our late 70s or early 80s - on the earlier side if I develop Alzheimer's in my late 70s. Our biggest concern is not the people or the quality of facilities and care - it is the unknown risk of future financial challenges to the community that can only be resolved through further assessments to the residents.

Deciding to age in place is the alternative, knowing that my wife will have to find a place for me if I get Alzheimer's, and our adult children will have to care for us, arranging our assisted living housing and supervising our health care, if we live to our mid to late 90s - just as we cared for our own parents.

CCRC's are not a cost-effective alternative to setting aside $1M of your own money, and then giving it to your children or charity if you don't need all of it for LTC. CCRC's are also probably not a cost-effective alternative to LTCI, unless your LTCI insurance contract allows the insurance company to increase your rates in the future if they experience adverse loss ratios. Nonetheless, CCRC's are a form of insurance. The break-even on added costs may be three years of high-end nursing or memory care per per person. Some people in the community will require ten or twelve years, and others will require none or one or two years. Who knows what their future holds.

We have friends who live in a large 55+ community. They moved there in their late 50s and are now in their early 70s. They comment it is very sad as established friends disappear from the community. Often not due to death, but decisions to move nearer to adult children who can care for them, and to be nearer to their grandchildren, or decisions or medical needs to move to assisted living communities.
InMyDreams
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by InMyDreams »

WillRetire wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:30 am We are noticing in our area an increase in new senior retirement communities that have independent living, assisted living, and memory care and no entrance fee except a deposit of about $5K. Fee-for-service.
There are many communities in my area that provide this progressive care - some are brand new, some have been around for a couple of decades. There are a few independent-only residences (your own apartment, three meals, once a week housekeeping).

However. I see old and new going thru changes in ownership and/or management. These are for-profit ventures. Even the ones that were built a decade or two ago change management or ownership, and then change the services they provide, or the conditions for living in their community.

And then there's the other problem mentioned - care management when I don't have sense/ability to manage for myself.

Sigh.

My hope is to find a stable, not-for-profit community.

Please note - having done the care management for my parent, watched the residence that he was in for 8 years change hands 3(?) times while he was there, and other facilities in the area do the same, I'm very concerned about finding a stable community. Remember, if you go into a CCRC (or any other type of "community"), it's not just the here and now that you need to assess. What will it be in 10-20-30 years? Do they have a well-rated SNF? Will it still be so well-rated when you need it? There's a lot to be said for a governing committee that includes residents.
rustwood
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by rustwood »

We have no children and it seems likely that there isn't going to be anyone else around to help us, so it is a problem that at some point we will not be able to properly manage our finances and healthcare. Given that, although moving into a CCRC may be expensive and require a leap of faith, it seems to be our only option to try to ensure that we will continue to be well cared for. Is there another good alternative for our situation that I am overlooking?

With that said, timing a move into a CCRC seems tricky. I wouldn't want to move in too soon, but the longer we wait, the more we risk encountering a health issue that would prevent us from getting the type A contract that we desire. I am hoping that while we are still able to take advantage of the amenities, we will find a financially sound CCRC with a very nice independent living option that we can afford and will enjoy. If we are carrying LTCi, that can only help the affordability aspect of it.
ncbill
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by ncbill »

Again, my grandparents tried out two CCRCs and a rental house before settling on a different CCRC where they spent their last 10 (grandfather) and 20 (grandmother) years.

So make sure any CCRC you pick has a liberal refund policy.
Last edited by ncbill on Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
RudyS
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by RudyS »

rustwood wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:41 am We have no children and it seems likely that there isn't going to be anyone else around to help us, so it is a problem that at some point we will not be able to properly manage our finances and healthcare. Given that, although moving into a CCRC may be expensive and require a leap of faith, it seems to be our only option to try to ensure that we will continue to be well cared for. Is there another good alternative for our situation that I am overlooking?

With that said, timing a move into a CCRC seems tricky. I wouldn't want to move in too soon, but the longer we wait, the more we risk encountering a health issue that would prevent us from getting the type A contract that we desire. I am hoping that while we are still able to take advantage of the amenities, we will find a financially sound CCRC with a very nice independent living option that we can afford and will enjoy. If we are carrying LTCi, that can only help the affordability aspect of it.
If you are in good health, 75 - 80 is a good age to make the move. We moved to a CCRC 3.5 years ago, and were 78 and 82. That's about par for the course with other residents here. We had decided to downsize and move out of a 2 story house to a condo. But then heard about CCRCs, and figured we didn't want to move twice. Our kids were 800 miles away from our former home, now just 30-45 minutes. We have heard, and I really believe , that it is better to make the move 5 years too soon rather than 5 minutes too late. We have a type A (life care) plan, with a 90% refundability of the buy-in price, and the place is operated by a well respected non-profit in this area.
rustwood
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by rustwood »

RudyS, thanks for your post. That is pretty much what I've been thinking.

Coincidentally, I received a NYT newsletter today which linked to this https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/03/heal ... alone.html and that linked to https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/27/heal ... lages.html. It turns out there is what seems to be a thriving village org close to where we've been thinking about moving. Their website says this:
Helping members stay at home longer.

Our members have chosen to live independently — usually at home, surrounded by friends and memories — by relying on our volunteers for a helping hand.
It likely isn't a panacea, but it could help us age in place longer than we'd otherwise be able to do. Of course it remains to be seen whether the village and/or home sharing movement will grow or fizzle out over the next 20 years, but it at least sounds like something I'd like to help out with if/when we move to that area.
Fremdon Ferndock
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Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

As a solo-ager, my main concern is how my care will be managed when I become unable to do so very effectively. We cared for my mother for many years, managing her finances and progressive moves from her own place, to a senior apartment, to assisted living, memory care, and finally a nursing home. The amount of time and effort it required was immense. For those last 15-20 years of her life, she wouldn't have been capable of managing what had to be managed. Because of this, I have no illusions about the challenges involved and need no convincing that at some point, if I don't mercifully die sooner, I'll need significant help navigating the last part of the journey. I don't really have anyone who will be around or that I have confidence would be able to come close to what might be needed.

So, if you don't have kids that you trust to be available and capably managing your finances for you and making the best decisions for your place of care you are pretty much left with a CCRC as your best option, IMO. I've spent a lot of time pondering this. I really don't prefer to live the rest of my life in "Happy Acres", and to be locked into it as friends possibly expire or move on to higher levels of care leaving me behind. But it is what it is.

If I were married, I wouldn't be feeling that much more optimistic either. One of you is going to expire or move to a higher level of care sooner or later and the other will be on their own. Once again, if you don't have trustworthy and capable kids good luck.

Based on my interaction with people living in CCRCs, it seems for many their decision was driven by (a) desire/need to downsize out of their home to someplace not requiring so much DIY, and (b) desire/need to have their care managed by someone other than their kids as they make that journey.
"Risk is what’s left over when you think you’ve thought of everything." ~ Morgan Housel
ROIGuy
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 10:10 am

Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by ROIGuy »

stan1 wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 2:17 pm My opinion that won't be shared by all: CCRCs start to look better around age 82-85. Yes they do require a medical exam to enter but they also need to fill their rooms. If you can find a new construction CCRC that has a lot of people coming in between 65 and 80 that's probably an exception. In general most healthy 70 year olds won't want to be around a lot of unhealthy people in their 90s. It is depressing.

As for who will coordinate care? It is harder if you don't have children, but will a younger sibling, cousin or nieces/nephews inherit your estate? If so, expect them to work to earn their inheritance. There are truly special friends and neighbors who will assist with no expectation of compensation (I've had several family members need to do this). Living next door to a retired nurse is a secret tip. If you really are at the point where you'd have no choice but to hire a professional fiduciary then I'd agree a CCRC might have slight preference.

The con of LTCI you don't list is rate increases. It's an unstable business model and the higher the rates get the more self selection there is with people buying LTCI who are likely to be long lived and have more long term care needs.

I see CCRCs like a long term luxury cruise. They are quite nice if you can afford one, and if you like being on a luxury ship with your fellow luxury ship passengers. But unlike a two week cruise, you can't say "it was a nice 14 days" but I'm ready to come home. With a CCRC you are home and returning to the final port isn't quite the same.
Interesting comparison. My MIL lives in a CCRC and whenever we visit and I walk down the hallway, I feel like I am in a hotel or cruise ship hallway. I know numerous people who are in their mid 70s/ early 80's that still live in their own place. Health (mental and physical) plays such an important role in having freedom of living choices as one gets older.
523HRR
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: LTCI vs CCRC?

Post by 523HRR »

I don't really see it as LTCI "vs" CCRC. My mother's LTCI is now fully covering her fee for her CCRC. Same for my dad before his passing.
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