Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

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TetrisCollider
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Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

As part of my regular review of our estate instructions, I started investigating the exact steps to follow if a Survivor (and/or an Estate Executor) wanted to execute a Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD purchased through a brokerage.

To start with, I called Fidelity Brokerage and asked this exact question. After speaking with three different groups within Fidelity Brokerage (regular Investment group, Fixed Income group and Inheritance & Transition group), the answer that I have received is that the Survivor (or the Estate Executor) would have to deal, separately, with each of the Financial Institutions who have issued respective brokerage CDs (with respective CUSIP numbers) and that the details would be available in each CUSIP CD Prospectus. When I asked how I would obtain a Prospectus for each CD (since it was not available anywhere on Fidelity Brokerage), the answer was – “we don’t know, it is not easy to obtain – why don’t you try Googling it”.

I did try to Google it (inclusive of searching on Bogleheads) and have not come up with any viable information/links. This situation seems quite ridiculous, but not necessarily surprising.

My next steps are to contact Charles Schwab Brokerage and ask them the same question. I presume I will receive the same answer. After that, I am planning to visit a physical Brokerage office and ask the same question. I will also try to contact some CD Issuers and see what (if any) information I can get from them.

Actionable Request – Has any of you dealt with this specific issue and/or know the answer to my underlying question: How to Execute a Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD? And a follow-up question on how to find a Prospectus for a Brokered CD with a known CUSIP number?

Appreciate your responses in advance.
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
Geologist
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Geologist »

My experience is with Vanguard. First, it is absolutely true that you have to deal with each financial institution with which you have the CDs (Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab are just brokers; they have nothing directly to do with the financial instruments. Often enough, they are getting the offerings from a third party anyway. This is why different brokers can often have identical offerings).

Vanguard told my brother and me (this was after my mother died) nothing about the prospectus, but we got a tale about how involved the process was. This included a statement that despite the “death put”, issuers could have limits on how much of the total of each CD issue could in fact be put back this way. Then each issuer would have their own paperwork. The whole process apparently could take months so it was more practical for us to just let the CDs mature (none of the CDs had maturities more than 15 months away).
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HueyLD
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by HueyLD »

Per Fidelity’s CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSIT DISCLOSURE STATEMENT:

https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public/060 ... losure.pdf

“ Survivor’s Option.

Certain CDs may allow for the estate of a deceased investor to "put back" or redeem both principal and accrued interest of that instrument without penalty. This is known as a survivor’s option (also known as a “death put”). CDs that carry a survivor's option usually redeem for par value when the survivor's option is exercised. Issuers may limit the permissible early withdrawal of CDs to the FDIC insurance limit (currently $250,000 for each insurable capacity) and/or may limit the amount being put back during a specified time period. The benefit of the survivor's option cannot be realized unless the original investor has died or become permanently incapacitated. Investor mortality risk must be considered when underwriting assets that carry a survivor's option. As a result, these assets can be more complex and expensive to issue.”
Alan S.
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Alan S. »

With all the hedging in these disclosures, perhaps the SO is more of a hassle than a benefit. :annoyed
Topic Author
TetrisCollider
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

HueyLD wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:41 pm Per Fidelity’s CERTIFICATE OF DEPOSIT DISCLOSURE STATEMENT:

https://www.fidelity.com/bin-public/060 ... losure.pdf

“ Survivor’s Option.

Certain CDs may allow for the estate of a deceased investor to "put back" or redeem both principal and accrued interest of that instrument without penalty. This is known as a survivor’s option (also known as a “death put”). CDs that carry a survivor's option usually redeem for par value when the survivor's option is exercised. Issuers may limit the permissible early withdrawal of CDs to the FDIC insurance limit (currently $250,000 for each insurable capacity) and/or may limit the amount being put back during a specified time period. The benefit of the survivor's option cannot be realized unless the original investor has died or become permanently incapacitated. Investor mortality risk must be considered when underwriting assets that carry a survivor's option. As a result, these assets can be more complex and expensive to issue.”
Thanks, Huey. I have Fidelity's Standard CD disclosure. This does not provide the steps one needs to take in order to execute the Survivor's Option. This disclosure is completely useless when one actually needs to perform this. I am trying to have very specific instructions for our Estate that would outline these steps.
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
Topic Author
TetrisCollider
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

Alan S. wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:08 pm With all the hedging in these disclosures, perhaps the SO is more of a hassle than a benefit. :annoyed
Alan, so far, it certainly seems this way. But I still have several FIs to contact before I surrender my investigations.
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
Topic Author
TetrisCollider
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

Geologist wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:26 pm My experience is with Vanguard. First, it is absolutely true that you have to deal with each financial institution with which you have the CDs (Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab are just brokers; they have nothing directly to do with the financial instruments. Often enough, they are getting the offerings from a third party anyway. This is why different brokers can often have identical offerings).

Vanguard told my brother and me (this was after my mother died) nothing about the prospectus, but we got a tale about how involved the process was. This included a statement that despite the “death put”, issuers could have limits on how much of the total of each CD issue could in fact be put back this way. Then each issuer would have their own paperwork. The whole process apparently could take months so it was more practical for us to just let the CDs mature (none of the CDs had maturities more than 15 months away).
Geologist, appreciate your real world info. Definitely not encouraging...
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
Geologist
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Geologist »

I certainly hope your survivors would have a better experience than I did*. I do wonder about trying to provide “very specific instructions for your Estate”. If you should buy a brokered CD from an institution not on your current set of institutions, it could easily have different steps to follow. Even if you don’t, I’m not sure what prevents a bank you currently use from changing its procedures after you compile your instructions (or suppose there is a bank merger; that is likely to change procedures).

Your intention is admirable but could easily not help your survivors that much even if the instructions are theoretically usable.


*We could have pursued more on the put option but we had other tasks to handle in settling the estate and spending considerable time dealing the brokered CDs was too much additional work for the benefit. (We could have sold the CDs of course.)
Topic Author
TetrisCollider
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

Geologist wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 6:30 pm I certainly hope your survivors would have a better experience than I did*. I do wonder about trying to provide “very specific instructions for your Estate”. If you should buy a brokered CD from an institution not on your current set of institutions, it could easily have different steps to follow. Even if you don’t, I’m not sure what prevents a bank you currently use from changing its procedures after you compile your instructions (or suppose there is a bank merger; that is likely to change procedures).

Your intention is admirable but could easily not help your survivors that much even if the instructions are theoretically usable.


*We could have pursued more on the put option but we had other tasks to handle in settling the estate and spending considerable time dealing the brokered CDs was too much additional work for the benefit. (We could have sold the CDs of course.)
I understand that anyone will have to manage various priorities (like you did). ALL of the instructions I am writing are theoretical until one has to perform them. I realize that and my expected survivors also know this. But, it's better to have something that theoretically will work, rather than nothing and leave everything to chance.
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
scubablue
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by scubablue »

This informative thread got me thinking about the handling of treasuries in a brokerage account-would my beneficiary (listed on my brokerage account) have to navigate each security back through the Treasury Department? For securities purchased through Treasury Direct one can title a P.O.D. designation which is very straightforward. Something to consider.
123
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by 123 »

scubablue wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:23 pm This informative thread got me thinking about the handling of treasuries in a brokerage account-would my beneficiary (listed on my brokerage account) have to navigate each security back through the Treasury Department? For securities purchased through Treasury Direct one can title a P.O.D. designation which is very straightforward. Something to consider.
The treasuries in a brokerage account are handled the same way as any other bond. If you want to cash-out before maturity date you simply sell the security.

The benefit of the survivor's option on a brokered CD is that it protects the principal amount and interest earned to date on the brokered CD. While the brokered CD can be sold the market value of the CD can be lower if there has been a change in interest rates since it was issued.
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scubablue
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by scubablue »

123 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:52 pm The treasuries in a brokerage account are handled the same way as any other bond. If you want to cash-out before maturity date you simply sell the security.
Sure, but this topic makes me wonder what hoops my beneficiary on multiple brokered CDs and treasuries will have to go through to sell them. Consolidating these securities under one company is supposed to make things less complicated for them.
Actual Survivor
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Actual Survivor »

Hello fellow Bogleheads. New to this forum and currently in the process of putting 2 CD's held at a major brokerage firm. These 2-year CD's were purchased about 6 months ago specifically with the price decline "insurance" of the Survivor Option (which typically comes with a lower interest rate or is used as an incentive for purchase). With interest rates rising at the time, in my 97 year old mother's account, they made perfect sense. It was likely she could pass during the holding period, so the funds at PAR could be recouped 100% even if the trading price had decreased; while giving the estate access to the cash without waiting until maturity. Sure enough, mom passed about 2 months ago. I received a similar response from the brokerage firm as the OP did regarding the Survivor Option exercise process.

Initially I made an appointment with the brokerage firm to begin the process in person. That turned into a comedy of errors and lack of knowledge. After 2 hours at their office and the broker contacting several departments within their firm, it was determined that the "major brokerage firm" didn't even know what department executes the Death Put to the issuer within their own firm that holds the actual security itself. I left with an assurance that I will be contacted by their Estate Services team with how to proceed.

A letter eventually came in from Estate Services and I was assigned a ES-number for the handling of all estate transfers to the beneficiaries new accounts at the same firm. I called them to insure Estate Services was aware that I want to exercise the Survivor Option and that your staff at my local office determined that the securities must remain in the deceased account to do so. The woman on the line told me she didn't know anything about that level of detail and someone else will be contacting me once they are assigned to my Estate Services case number.

The next thing I know, I receive a letter that everything in my late mothers accounts has been transferred "In-Kind." Of course that is NOT what was supposed to happen and the Survivor Option can't be exercised from the new account in my name. Days and many calls later everything that was done had to be reversed and a new Estate Services case number was assigned.

Attempt number two begins with a call from the brokerage firm trying to talk me out of exercising the Survivor Option. They even tried to tell me the securities are close to PAR anyway, so just sell them. I laughed, because by this time 2-year CD's that were 2.9%-3.1% are now close to 4.6% and rising; thus price dropping like a lead weight. I told them if they want to give me PAR and trade the securities themselves they can do that. I need access to the funds, that can now be reinvested at 4.6% or in a 3% liquid Money Market account that can be accessed to settle the estate. The conversation actually got a bit heated, in that I purchased these two CD's specifically with the Survivor Option from them in mind. I had to explain to them that it is a selling feature that "I WILL BE" taking advantage of with or without their advice. They then tried to tell me the process may take 3 to 6 months or even over a year to complete. Frustrated to no end, I asked them to tell me what I have to provide them with to put the securities NOW. That ended the call with a promise to get back to me.

The next call came with apologies and an assure that as my broker holding the fix income CD securities for me, they will process the Survivor Option through their Corporate Actions team; and it will not take months to complete after all. They outlined what I needed to submit to them and where I needed to send it. Finally the process could begin to exercise the death put using the incorporated Survivor Option.

This is what I have learned during this ongoing process:

1) The security has to remain in the deceased account while the Survivor Option is exercised.
2) A detailed Letter of Instruction (with detailed identifiers of the security and relevant account information), original certified death certificate and notarized Affidavit of Domicile for each security in each account was required.
3) The brokerage firms Corporate Actions Department is completing the process for me at this brokerage firm.

Result to date:

One security (an American Express CD) was tendered and PAR plus interest deposited into my late mother's account within 17 days of their Corporate Actions Department receiving my request to exercise.

The second security has not been tendered to date (a Goldman Sachs CD) and 39 days have transpired. My last inquiry 7 days ago to the brokerage firm has not been responded to. This CD pays on November 18, 2022 and will be 6 months old at that time. It is possible that it has a restriction that the Survivor Option can not be exercised until a period of time has passed, but no one can verify if that is the case. I have not tried to obtain the prospectus for this CD from the brokerage firm or Golden Sachs. I'm surprised they didn't forward a prospectus to me (or online link to it - paperless option) when it was purchased. You'd think that would be required by law.

Next week I will attempt to follow up with the brokerage firm once again to determine what is causing the delay.
Topic Author
TetrisCollider
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by TetrisCollider »

Actual Survivor wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:50 pm Hello fellow Bogleheads. New to this forum and currently in the process of putting 2 CD's held at a major brokerage firm. These 2-year CD's were purchased about 6 months ago specifically with the price decline "insurance" of the Survivor Option (which typically comes with a lower interest rate or is used as an incentive for purchase). With interest rates rising at the time, in my 97 year old mother's account, they made perfect sense. It was likely she could pass during the holding period, so the funds at PAR could be recouped 100% even if the trading price had decreased; while giving the estate access to the cash without waiting until maturity. Sure enough, mom passed about 2 months ago. I received a similar response from the brokerage firm as the OP did regarding the Survivor Option exercise process.

Initially I made an appointment with the brokerage firm to begin the process in person. That turned into a comedy of errors and lack of knowledge. After 2 hours at their office and the broker contacting several departments within their firm, it was determined that the "major brokerage firm" didn't even know what department executes the Death Put to the issuer within their own firm that holds the actual security itself. I left with an assurance that I will be contacted by their Estate Services team with how to proceed.

A letter eventually came in from Estate Services and I was assigned a ES-number for the handling of all estate transfers to the beneficiaries new accounts at the same firm. I called them to insure Estate Services was aware that I want to exercise the Survivor Option and that your staff at my local office determined that the securities must remain in the deceased account to do so. The woman on the line told me she didn't know anything about that level of detail and someone else will be contacting me once they are assigned to my Estate Services case number.

The next thing I know, I receive a letter that everything in my late mothers accounts has been transferred "In-Kind." Of course that is NOT what was supposed to happen and the Survivor Option can't be exercised from the new account in my name. Days and many calls later everything that was done had to be reversed and a new Estate Services case number was assigned.

Attempt number two begins with a call from the brokerage firm trying to talk me out of exercising the Survivor Option. They even tried to tell me the securities are close to PAR anyway, so just sell them. I laughed, because by this time 2-year CD's that were 2.9%-3.1% are now close to 4.6% and rising; thus price dropping like a lead weight. I told them if they want to give me PAR and trade the securities themselves they can do that. I need access to the funds, that can now be reinvested at 4.6% or in a 3% liquid Money Market account that can be accessed to settle the estate. The conversation actually got a bit heated, in that I purchased these two CD's specifically with the Survivor Option from them in mind. I had to explain to them that it is a selling feature that "I WILL BE" taking advantage of with or without their advice. They then tried to tell me the process may take 3 to 6 months or even over a year to complete. Frustrated to no end, I asked them to tell me what I have to provide them with to put the securities NOW. That ended the call with a promise to get back to me.

The next call came with apologies and an assure that as my broker holding the fix income CD securities for me, they will process the Survivor Option through their Corporate Actions team; and it will not take months to complete after all. They outlined what I needed to submit to them and where I needed to send it. Finally the process could begin to exercise the death put using the incorporated Survivor Option.

This is what I have learned during this ongoing process:

1) The security has to remain in the deceased account while the Survivor Option is exercised.
2) A detailed Letter of Instruction (with detailed identifiers of the security and relevant account information), original certified death certificate and notarized Affidavit of Domicile for each security in each account was required.
3) The brokerage firms Corporate Actions Department is completing the process for me at this brokerage firm.

Result to date:

One security (an American Express CD) was tendered and PAR plus interest deposited into my late mother's account within 17 days of their Corporate Actions Department receiving my request to exercise.

The second security has not been tendered to date (a Goldman Sachs CD) and 39 days have transpired. My last inquiry 7 days ago to the brokerage firm has not been responded to. This CD pays on November 18, 2022 and will be 6 months old at that time. It is possible that it has a restriction that the Survivor Option can not be exercised until a period of time has passed, but no one can verify if that is the case. I have not tried to obtain the prospectus for this CD from the brokerage firm or Golden Sachs. I'm surprised they didn't forward a prospectus to me (or online link to it - paperless option) when it was purchased. You'd think that would be required by law.

Next week I will attempt to follow up with the brokerage firm once again to determine what is causing the delay.
Actual Survivor - first, I am sorry about your Mom's passing. :(

I truly am appreciative of your very detailed account of the details you are going through for Brokered CDs. It is extremely helpful and unfortunately confirms my suspicions on the knowledge (or rather, lack thereof) for Survivor Option on CDs at brokerages. Would it be possible to share what Brokerage firm you are dealing with?

This info is very valuable not only for me but for all others!

I hope you resolve all these issues and your Estate Closure soon - it is never easy dealing with these financial requirements while going through emotional grieving.

Thank you again.
For some reason, people that know nothing, seem to know everything...
Actual Survivor
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Actual Survivor »

Sorry for the slow response. I wanted the second Survivor Option Death Put completed before responding. These two securities were put to the issuer by Charles Schwab's Corporate Actions Department in Florida, even though I am in California and would normally work with a different office. I think because of the initial confusion at an inexperienced Estate Services office in yet a third state, CS asked me to send everything to the Florida office. I can not tell you if this was a favor to me because of the initial mistakes made at my local office or this is (will be) their standard procedure.

The second CD was tendered by Goldman Sachs after the first 6 month interest payment November 18, 2022 and the money was in my late mother's account on November 24, 2022 with full interest to what looks like the 23rd. I suspect the Goldman CD may have had a 6 month waiting period before the Survivor Option could be executed, but I do not know that for a fact. I base that on it being tendered a couple days after that first interest payment. I never requested a prospectus or even tried to locate one. My plan was if it wasn't tendered after the first interest payment, then I would start that search. So glad I didn't have to do that.

Clearly this process could be made much easier for survivors and estate executors. By executing the Survivor Option in this rapidly rising interest rate market, it erased a multi-thousands paper loss on the estate and gave access to cash funds to distribute; a win-win for the family.

I would buy fixed income securities with a Survivor Option again for any relative that had a possibility of death during the holding period when the rates of return are dramatically higher than shorter term rates in a rising rate market and even in some cases just to have the higher return with the early cash-out ability upon an untimely death.

Hopefully the brokers will come up to speed on executing these Death Puts to simplify the process with the increase in demographics that demand them. I recommended CS send a "Digital Prospectus Link" to any CD purchaser in the future, so they always have the option of reviewing it themselves. That would at least provide some understanding on any restrictions that might be relevant, plus an address and phone number for the issuer.

Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year Bogleheads. Cheers!
Actual Survivor
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by Actual Survivor »

TetrisCollider wrote: Fri Nov 11, 2022 7:42 pm Actual Survivor - first, I am sorry about your Mom's passing. :(
And thank you TetrisCollider for you kind condolences.
ranles
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2023 5:26 pm

Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by ranles »

Thank you. This is just what I was looking for. Just starting to get the runaround with CS in Texas and California (account location). Mom 103, died late 2022. I have an MBA (a bit dated). Brokered CD's of long duration when the rates are not inverted are the way to maximize return and not be stuck with deeply discounted CD's in a rising rate period. A couple I am dealing with are 20+% underwater! I am being encouraged to let it go!!! In total there are 13 (good thing I have 15 death certs). As they are laddered, a few may come due in a shorter time that to get them Put. Stepfather died long ago; he is also on the trust. DO I need death certs for him too?

I do not know what an Affidavit of Domicile (for you or your Mom) is but will check after this post. I have an estate attorney, but he is pricey, and may or may not have the answers. I will get a list of items to discuss first.

Taxes scare me. Income will be reported to IRS thru the EOY, but this is not correct. Part belongs in the new account. So much for my using turbo tax. It is up to me to figure this out too. Lawyer is likely to help here?

The estate has a few stocks too (purchased over 50 years ago). Unknown basis...utility, div. reinvested, so return of capital etc. I think I can transfer them to the new EIN and have SC look up the values on the DOD. They then can be sold or divided up among the beneficiaries.
donall
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by donall »

I was the trustee on an account that used the survivor option with Schwab. I was instructed to write a letter to the Schwab Corporate Actions/Reorganization, Survivor Options ORL2-03-231, address in Orlando FL.

Dear Madam/Sir,
This letter instructs use of the Survivor Option for full redemption of the following CDs in the XX Trust. (List the CDs)
Bank name, interest %, amount of CD, maturity date, CUSIP

A copy of the trust, original Affirmation of Domicile, and Death certificate are enclosed.

Sincerely,
Trustee for XX trust

Everything went smoothly and the staff at Schwab were professional and efficient. I hope this helps!
ranles
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by ranles »

WOW! Thank you. Did you need to supply the documents for each CD or just one set to Schwab? Was the entire trust required, or just parts ie as required to open the new EIN?
donall
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by donall »

Rankles,
I worked with the Schwab representative in the inherited accounts division, who was great. If I recall, I emailed the letter and documents to her per her directions. Not sure if I then mailed the letter and documents. No CD documents just the three mentioned in the letter were mailed. I emailed the full trust and amendment. I don’t think it took that long for the redemption to happen.

This action was after the living trust account was transferred to the new account after death and was an irrevocable trust. The new account used the EIN that I applied for. There are a lot of good books, such as the Nolo series that can help you. A very good book I used, The complete Book of Wills, Estates, and Trusts by Bove and Langa seemed to be very relevant to procedures to do. I would also read the numerous Boglehead threads on inheritance and focus on the replies of the professional attorneys whose replies are worth their weight in gold.
ranles
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Re: Executing Survivor’s Option on a Brokered CD

Post by ranles »

Again, thank you. I am working with a person in the estates group of Schwab. Your info helped us both. He will check on the SCA/R group and address as you provided in title. He says an original Death Cert. is required for each CD. Multiple cover letters, original may be too, he is checking. Some banks have special requirements. The CS office in Carlsbad is fairly close to me, so hopefully they can provide notary services and accept the account application.
I found the CS form for Affirmation of Domicile, so I'll do a bunch of them to take along.
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