Water heater replacement, etc
Water heater replacement, etc
Our new to us house needs the water heater replaced. It's in the crawlspace, so it will be need to be a short and fat unit, which makes it a little more expensive. The plumber is quoting $1750 for a 40 gallon electric A.O. smith 6 year warranty unit, expansion tank (required by code), and a stand to get it up off the ground more than the pavers under the current unit. We're kind of in triage mode right now with what we need to do around the place, so I'd rather not do the whole get a bunch of quotes thing if this is the ballpark of what's reasonable?
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Depending on how far the install location is from your circuit breaker, have you considered a tankless unit?
Two immediate benefits are that they're small (so should fit pretty much anywhere) and you don't even need to turn them off when you go out of town.
Two immediate benefits are that they're small (so should fit pretty much anywhere) and you don't even need to turn them off when you go out of town.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
I briefly considered it, but cost and a bit of research into reliability turned me off.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
It's very hard to know. Each job is different, some need power vents and plumbing. Labor costs can vary by location and reputation of the plumber. If that includes the unit and the installation, I would say I couldn't get that in my house for your price.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
It's electric, so I don't think it should need vents. This would be for all parts and labor. Good to know it's within (or under) the range you'd expect.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
I would trust your plumber. I paid a similar price years ago for my water heaters. It also needed the expansion tank for code, etc etc.
So you might find a better price, but that is not an outrageous price.
The life expectancy varies greatly by location (water chemistry), so,I’d trust your plumbers recommendation there as well. Sounds like tanks just last a long time where you live.
So you might find a better price, but that is not an outrageous price.
The life expectancy varies greatly by location (water chemistry), so,I’d trust your plumbers recommendation there as well. Sounds like tanks just last a long time where you live.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Get a quote from a plumbing company that does higher end tankless water heaters.
We replaced our tank hot water heater with a tankless which went into the attic. The particular model we chose could also be installed outside the house and can be chained with additional tankless heaters if required (not necessary in our smaller house).
We went with Navien for our home. We don’t even worry about it when we travel. (https://www.navieninc.com/residential/t ... er-heaters)
Yes, our tank was in the crawl space and died. We definitely didn’t want it back under the house.
We replaced our tank hot water heater with a tankless which went into the attic. The particular model we chose could also be installed outside the house and can be chained with additional tankless heaters if required (not necessary in our smaller house).
We went with Navien for our home. We don’t even worry about it when we travel. (https://www.navieninc.com/residential/t ... er-heaters)
Yes, our tank was in the crawl space and died. We definitely didn’t want it back under the house.
Choose happiness.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Do you have an electric tankless? If so, how many amps is it? The OP has an electric.Pyramid44 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:31 pm Get a quote from a plumbing company that does higher end tankless water heaters.
We replaced our tank hot water heater with a tankless which went into the attic. The particular model we chose could also be installed outside the house and can be chained with additional tankless heaters if required (not necessary in our smaller house).
We went with Navien for our home. We don’t even worry about it when we travel. (https://www.navieninc.com/residential/t ... er-heaters)
Yes, our tank was in the crawl space and died. We definitely didn’t want it back under the house.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
We had a water heater in the attic and replaced it with a tankless one that hung on the outside of the house in North Carolina. Single best decision we made and I think it’s been running for 10 years without a problem.
- Harry Livermore
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes) but I'd say within a reasonable range since it includes sourcing the new heater, disposing of the old, and perhaps some minor supplies or parts. I'm guessing it's a 2-hour job for two people. I may be wrong; I'm not "in the trade".
I'd go with the cheaper unit with the shorter warranty, especially since it sounds like it's not a "forever" home for you.
The crawlspace is likely fine, unless the humidity is particularly high, which is a different conversation but one you should have.
You are encouraged to replace the anode rod as needed... but I have personally never done that. Bad Harry.
I shut off our water when we are away for more than a day or two. I have never thought about switching off the electricity to the heater elements in the heater. It's probably an OK idea, but it's only a few dollars to run it while you're gone. You are shutting off the water to avoid an unlimited amount of it causing damage to your home, not (necessarily) to avoid spending $4 in electricity. I suppose if it leaks, and runs dry because the water is off, the elements will burn out, but since it was leaking, the heater would need to be replaced regardless? If you wish to turn off the elements, it will be a breaker in your electric panel (typically a double breaker) Ask the plumber when he's there to show you, if it's not labeled.
Cheers
I'd go with the cheaper unit with the shorter warranty, especially since it sounds like it's not a "forever" home for you.
The crawlspace is likely fine, unless the humidity is particularly high, which is a different conversation but one you should have.
You are encouraged to replace the anode rod as needed... but I have personally never done that. Bad Harry.
I shut off our water when we are away for more than a day or two. I have never thought about switching off the electricity to the heater elements in the heater. It's probably an OK idea, but it's only a few dollars to run it while you're gone. You are shutting off the water to avoid an unlimited amount of it causing damage to your home, not (necessarily) to avoid spending $4 in electricity. I suppose if it leaks, and runs dry because the water is off, the elements will burn out, but since it was leaking, the heater would need to be replaced regardless? If you wish to turn off the elements, it will be a breaker in your electric panel (typically a double breaker) Ask the plumber when he's there to show you, if it's not labeled.
Cheers
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Manufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Thanks, this is all helpful. I wouldn't have thought to turn off the water heater when leaving either and didn't in our previous house, but when we were leaving our previous rental for an extended period of time I was talking with our very good and on top of things landlord about my plan to turn off the water and he asked me to turn off the water heater too with the thinking that if it ran dry it could become a fire hazard. I don't know how likely or possible either of those things are, but that's where I got the idea.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes) but I'd say within a reasonable range since it includes sourcing the new heater, disposing of the old, and perhaps some minor supplies or parts. I'm guessing it's a 2-hour job for two people. I may be wrong; I'm not "in the trade".
I'd go with the cheaper unit with the shorter warranty, especially since it sounds like it's not a "forever" home for you.
The crawlspace is likely fine, unless the humidity is particularly high, which is a different conversation but one you should have.
You are encouraged to replace the anode rod as needed... but I have personally never done that. Bad Harry.
I shut off our water when we are away for more than a day or two. I have never thought about switching off the electricity to the heater elements in the heater. It's probably an OK idea, but it's only a few dollars to run it while you're gone. You are shutting off the water to avoid an unlimited amount of it causing damage to your home, not (necessarily) to avoid spending $4 in electricity. I suppose if it leaks, and runs dry because the water is off, the elements will burn out, but since it was leaking, the heater would need to be replaced regardless? If you wish to turn off the elements, it will be a breaker in your electric panel (typically a double breaker) Ask the plumber when he's there to show you, if it's not labeled.
Cheers
On the point of removing the old tank, I didn't think to discuss that with the plumber, and it's possible it was built into the crawlspace or at least went down there before the current iteration of the hatch. If it can't come back up whole is it ok to drain it and leave it down there or does it really need to come back out one way or another? I suppose that would mean cutting it up into pieces?
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
To OP:terran wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:50 pm Our new to us house needs the water heater replaced. It's in the crawlspace, so it will be need to be a short and fat unit, which makes it a little more expensive. The plumber is quoting $1750 for a 40 gallon electric A.O. smith 6 year warranty unit, expansion tank (required by code), and a stand to get it up off the ground more than the pavers under the current unit. We're kind of in triage mode right now with what we need to do around the place, so I'd rather not do the whole get a bunch of quotes thing if this is the ballpark of what's reasonable?
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
Notes.
1. For 500 dollars, it might well be worth it to move the water heater out of the crawlspace and into the garage or someplace convenient. You can then upsize the water heater (taller) and also it would cost less than the low profile units or at least get you more water heater for the same money, etc.
1b. Water heater in the crawlspace or similar inconvenient accessible space is not a good idea.
2. The water should not be in the "walk in closet" or interior living space, unless a utility room that also has a wash sink and washer dryer and has ample room/space. Since you have a crawlspace, depending on temperatures and weather in your area, the plumber has freedom to run lines over a wide area.
*Think of it this way, water heaters can and do leak, pipes burst, etc. Where do you want your water heater to leak?
*Water heater thermostats and elements, input/output flex lines, etc, need fixing over the life of a water heater (sometimes for some people not so much). So. . .you need easy access.
2b, An electrician can run new water heater lines from a "J" box installed at the old water heater location or straight from the "main elec panel" whichever is easier and cheaper and more convenient and looks okay. The line goes from old "J" box to new "J" box near the new water heater and location.
** Highly Suggest having an electrician do this per code and professionally. . not the plumber.
3. Leave the old water heater in the crawlspace. Out of sight. Out of mind. Unless it really bugs you, then pay to have it removed.
4. Water heater instals have a input line ball valve where the heater is. If not, it should.
5. IMHO, professionally, it is better to spend money "once" to do this correctly with a mind toward the future if you are going to stay in this home.
But, if you plan or moving and selling (not keeping and renting and moving) inside of 5 years, then just replace the existing water heater as it is.
To OP:
I hope this is helpful for you.
PM me as you wish.
dislaimer: the above is only one professional opinion amongst a zillion ways to do things and a zillion opinionizations based on nil to few personal experiences, etc.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Several years ago I replaced my water heater with a heat pump water heater. I got a $900 rebate on the initial cost. It is much more efficient and noticeably reduced my electric bill. It was a great decision.
I think the recent Inflation Reduction Act has new rebates for heat pump water heaters. Not sure if they are already in effect or you would have to wait until 2023. Rewiring America is a good site for navigating the possibilities. Good luck on your new-homeowner adventure!
I think the recent Inflation Reduction Act has new rebates for heat pump water heaters. Not sure if they are already in effect or you would have to wait until 2023. Rewiring America is a good site for navigating the possibilities. Good luck on your new-homeowner adventure!
Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. --Charles Addams. #613 in 2022 BH prediction contest. #42 in 2023. Not that I am keeping track.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Your plumber's quote sounds good. I'd mark my calendar and replace it in 10 years.terran wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:50 pm Our new to us house needs the water heater replaced. It's in the crawlspace, so it will be need to be a short and fat unit, which makes it a little more expensive. The plumber is quoting $1750 for a 40 gallon electric A.O. smith 6 year warranty unit, expansion tank (required by code), and a stand to get it up off the ground more than the pavers under the current unit. We're kind of in triage mode right now with what we need to do around the place, so I'd rather not do the whole get a bunch of quotes thing if this is the ballpark of what's reasonable?
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
OR ...what Sandtrap said if I was going to live in it full time.
- Harry Livermore
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
I have certainly heard that, and won't dispute it.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 amManufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
Also, many tradespeople won't install equipment that they don't supply.
So, as I said, the price seems a bit "fat", but within a reasonable range.
Cheers
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Thanks for replying Sandtrap, you always have valuable advice on home maintenance issues!Sandtrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:52 am To OP:
Notes.
1. For 500 dollars, it might well be worth it to move the water heater out of the crawlspace and into the garage or someplace convenient. You can then upsize the water heater (taller) and also it would cost less than the low profile units or at least get you more water heater for the same money, etc.
1b. Water heater in the crawlspace or similar inconvenient accessible space is not a good idea.
2. The water should not be in the "walk in closet" or interior living space, unless a utility room that also has a wash sink and washer dryer and has ample room/space. Since you have a crawlspace, depending on temperatures and weather in your area, the plumber has freedom to run lines over a wide area.
*Think of it this way, water heaters can and do leak, pipes burst, etc. Where do you want your water heater to leak?
*Water heater thermostats and elements, input/output flex lines, etc, need fixing over the life of a water heater (sometimes for some people not so much). So. . .you need easy access.
2b, An electrician can run new water heater lines from a "J" box installed at the old water heater location or straight from the "main elec panel" whichever is easier and cheaper and more convenient and looks okay. The line goes from old "J" box to new "J" box near the new water heater and location.
** Highly Suggest having an electrician do this per code and professionally. . not the plumber.
3. Leave the old water heater in the crawlspace. Out of sight. Out of mind. Unless it really bugs you, then pay to have it removed.
4. Water heater instals have a input line ball valve where the heater is. If not, it should.
5. IMHO, professionally, it is better to spend money "once" to do this correctly with a mind toward the future if you are going to stay in this home.
But, if you plan or moving and selling (not keeping and renting and moving) inside of 5 years, then just replace the existing water heater as it is.
To OP:
I hope this is helpful for you.
PM me as you wish.
dislaimer: the above is only one professional opinion amongst a zillion ways to do things and a zillion opinionizations based on nil to few personal experiences, etc.
Unfortunately this house really doesn't have a utility space. The garage is detached, the laundry room is finished with a wood floor (in what was once a garage, now converted to living space), the HVAC is in the attic.
It's possible we could create a utility space by cannibalizing other space, but that would either be in spaces we weren't planning to touch at all or spaces that we probably will do something with, but not right now.
Given your comment about where I want a leak, I think the crawlspace probably is the best option we have right now.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Maybe, but it could also be the case that it's the exact same product off the assembly line but Home Depot gets a discount for volume. Really need someone reliable to do a tear down of comparable heaters to see if there is any significant difference.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 amManufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
The same goes for those 6, 9, 12 year warranty heaters. I've heard claims that they have difference size anodes but I'm doubtful since the cost of a full anode is only $20 to $50 retail. How much could they save by making it shorter? It's seems more likely that they all are identical and you are just pre-paying for an extended appliance warranty.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Look at the model numbers and/or call up a wholesale house. The specific manufacturer factory rep might help also. I am a retired plumber. Some manufacturers might advertise a specific tank lining. I always heard that it was the anodes in a residential water heater that defined the level of warranty. We would use AO Smith and Bradford White or whatever the specs required. Some heavier spec’s jobs like new schools went with an ASME tank.billaster wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 pmMaybe, but it could also be the case that it's the exact same product off the assembly line but Home Depot gets a discount for volume. Really need someone reliable to do a tear down of comparable heaters to see if there is any significant difference.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 amManufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
The same goes for those 6, 9, 12 year warranty heaters. I've heard claims that they have difference size anodes but I'm doubtful since the cost of a full anode is only $20 to $50 retail. How much could they save by making it shorter? It's seems more likely that they all are identical and you are just pre-paying for an extended appliance warranty.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Ease of access in a crawlspace is a plus as possible.
My dehumidifier and part of my heat pump are in the crawlspace.
I try to make both easy to get to and to work around.
I put in 2 lights to make it easier although the tradesmen usually ignore them unless I turn them on.
I drain and flush my water heater every fall so I'd want an easy hookup to a garden hose. I'd also want a ball valve at the inlet like sandtrap said and another ball valve at the bottom drain. Consider an auto cut-off like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EA ... UTF8&psc=1
There might be one available that would send you an electronic message in case of a leak?
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Thanks for the update.terran wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 8:48 pmThanks for replying Sandtrap, you always have valuable advice on home maintenance issues!Sandtrap wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:52 am To OP:
Notes.
1. For 500 dollars, it might well be worth it to move the water heater out of the crawlspace and into the garage or someplace convenient. You can then upsize the water heater (taller) and also it would cost less than the low profile units or at least get you more water heater for the same money, etc.
1b. Water heater in the crawlspace or similar inconvenient accessible space is not a good idea.
2. The water should not be in the "walk in closet" or interior living space, unless a utility room that also has a wash sink and washer dryer and has ample room/space. Since you have a crawlspace, depending on temperatures and weather in your area, the plumber has freedom to run lines over a wide area.
*Think of it this way, water heaters can and do leak, pipes burst, etc. Where do you want your water heater to leak?
*Water heater thermostats and elements, input/output flex lines, etc, need fixing over the life of a water heater (sometimes for some people not so much). So. . .you need easy access.
2b, An electrician can run new water heater lines from a "J" box installed at the old water heater location or straight from the "main elec panel" whichever is easier and cheaper and more convenient and looks okay. The line goes from old "J" box to new "J" box near the new water heater and location.
** Highly Suggest having an electrician do this per code and professionally. . not the plumber.
3. Leave the old water heater in the crawlspace. Out of sight. Out of mind. Unless it really bugs you, then pay to have it removed.
4. Water heater instals have a input line ball valve where the heater is. If not, it should.
5. IMHO, professionally, it is better to spend money "once" to do this correctly with a mind toward the future if you are going to stay in this home.
But, if you plan or moving and selling (not keeping and renting and moving) inside of 5 years, then just replace the existing water heater as it is.
To OP:
I hope this is helpful for you.
PM me as you wish.
dislaimer: the above is only one professional opinion amongst a zillion ways to do things and a zillion opinionizations based on nil to few personal experiences, etc.
Unfortunately this house really doesn't have a utility space. The garage is detached, the laundry room is finished with a wood floor (in what was once a garage, now converted to living space), the HVAC is in the attic.
It's possible we could create a utility space by cannibalizing other space, but that would either be in spaces we weren't planning to touch at all or spaces that we probably will do something with, but not right now.
Given your comment about where I want a leak, I think the crawlspace probably is the best option we have right now.
Given that, as mentioned elsewhere, (not knowing your crawlspace in detail), it would be a good idea to make it as convenient as you can to keep and service your water heater and other utilities that you might have there.
Checking all the plumbing ins and outs, installng a ball valve input shutoff if there is none, and so forth.
Also updating any electrical things as needed, installing an electrical shutoff or sub breaker panel (mini) within arms reach of the water heater, so you don't have to go all the way back to the back panel to do that if you need to troubleshoot or change the water heater. Making a good cement platform for things if there isn't any. Stuff like that.
The idea here is since you're working on something, to make it easier (and less costly) down the line during home ownership to do more things in that area.
Glad you're getting things worked out.
Hope this is helpful.
j
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
3 years ago, that price is a rip off.
Today, it is "in range," if maybe a bit near the top since it isn't gas.
If you trust this guy, and you are OK with paying maybe a few hundred premium (at most), go for it. Otherwise you can get a bunch more quotes but you won't find it to be 100% out of range. Your time is also money.
Today, it is "in range," if maybe a bit near the top since it isn't gas.
If you trust this guy, and you are OK with paying maybe a few hundred premium (at most), go for it. Otherwise you can get a bunch more quotes but you won't find it to be 100% out of range. Your time is also money.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Pyramid44 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:31 pm Get a quote from a plumbing company that does higher end tankless water heaters.
We replaced our tank hot water heater with a tankless which went into the attic. The particular model we chose could also be installed outside the house and can be chained with additional tankless heaters if required (not necessary in our smaller house).
We went with Navien for our home. We don’t even worry about it when we travel. (https://www.navieninc.com/residential/t ... er-heaters)
Yes, our tank was in the crawl space and died. We definitely didn’t want it back under the house.
We just switched to a Navian tankless as well. Installed it outside. So far no complaints
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Yes, these are good points. I have never found a good explanation of the difference between, say, Rheem Performance Platinum (Home Depot) and Rheem Professional. In general, contractor grade means cheaper; but it is also implied that Rheem Professional is better for some hidden reason.billaster wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 pmMaybe, but it could also be the case that it's the exact same product off the assembly line but Home Depot gets a discount for volume. Really need someone reliable to do a tear down of comparable heaters to see if there is any significant difference.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 am Manufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.
The same goes for those 6, 9, 12 year warranty heaters. I've heard claims that they have difference size anodes but I'm doubtful since the cost of a full anode is only $20 to $50 retail. How much could they save by making it shorter? It's seems more likely that they all are identical and you are just pre-paying for an extended appliance warranty.
I too would like to know if 12-year means better anode. They say it does, but how does one verify it? And how is "better" (as opposed to "different") defined?---replacement anodes sold at retail aren't rated 6/9/12 years.
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
"I too would like to know if 12-year means better anode. They say it does, but how does one verify it?"Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pmYes, these are good points. I have never found a good explanation of the difference between, say, Rheem Performance Platinum (Home Depot) and Rheem Professional. In general, contractor grade means cheaper; but it is also implied that Rheem Professional is better for some hidden reason.billaster wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 pmMaybe, but it could also be the case that it's the exact same product off the assembly line but Home Depot gets a discount for volume. Really need someone reliable to do a tear down of comparable heaters to see if there is any significant difference.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 am Manufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.
The same goes for those 6, 9, 12 year warranty heaters. I've heard claims that they have difference size anodes but I'm doubtful since the cost of a full anode is only $20 to $50 retail. How much could they save by making it shorter? It's seems more likely that they all are identical and you are just pre-paying for an extended appliance warranty.
I too would like to know if 12-year means better anode. They say it does, but how does one verify it? And how is "better" (as opposed to "different") defined?---replacement anodes sold at retail aren't rated 6/9/12 years.
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
Who is "they". I have never seen a manufacturer say that one model has a better anode that another, just various internet speculators. Anodes are very cheap. There's no financial incentive for the manufacturer to put a deliberately handicapped anode in a heater so that it will fail early. In the absence of any manufacture claim about anodes, I assume that the only difference between 6/9/12 year models of the same heater are simply pre-paid extended appliance warranties.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
That's what the owner of a plumbing business told me. He said that there was no difference for his American Water Heater Company water heaters that he sold; you only got a longer warranty for more money.
At the time, I didn't care about the warranty; I just wanted a quality water heater.
When my water heater hits 10 years, and if my go to plumber is still in business, I'm going to ask for a quality water heater and trust his call.
Anode rods: I would probably make a mess.
YouTube and I do a drain and flush every fall. I get enough sediment out that I'm motivated to do it yearly.
Last edited by hudson on Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Some water heaters have 2 anodes. I've seen anodes attached to the hot water outlet similar to the dip tube attached to the cold water inlet. They then have another anode attached to a plug in another thread o let on the tank. Our current water heater has a stand alone anode. I suppose theoretically that I could purchase a hot water outlet anode and double the protection for the tank.billaster wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:45 pm"I too would like to know if 12-year means better anode. They say it does, but how does one verify it?"Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pmYes, these are good points. I have never found a good explanation of the difference between, say, Rheem Performance Platinum (Home Depot) and Rheem Professional. In general, contractor grade means cheaper; but it is also implied that Rheem Professional is better for some hidden reason.billaster wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:00 pmMaybe, but it could also be the case that it's the exact same product off the assembly line but Home Depot gets a discount for volume. Really need someone reliable to do a tear down of comparable heaters to see if there is any significant difference.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 am Manufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.
The same goes for those 6, 9, 12 year warranty heaters. I've heard claims that they have difference size anodes but I'm doubtful since the cost of a full anode is only $20 to $50 retail. How much could they save by making it shorter? It's seems more likely that they all are identical and you are just pre-paying for an extended appliance warranty.
I too would like to know if 12-year means better anode. They say it does, but how does one verify it? And how is "better" (as opposed to "different") defined?---replacement anodes sold at retail aren't rated 6/9/12 years.
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
Who is "they". I have never seen a manufacturer say that one model has a better anode that another, just various internet speculators. Anodes are very cheap. There's no financial incentive for the manufacturer to put a deliberately handicapped anode in a heater so that it will fail early. In the absence of any manufacture claim about anodes, I assume that the only difference between 6/9/12 year models of the same heater are simply pre-paid extended appliance warranties.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
An anode rod is a sacrificial electrode that prevents corrosion of the tank lining - until it's used up. Anode rods are replaceable. A.O. Smith uses a slightly different type of anode rod from most other manufacturers, but it is replaceable. If you had your plumber replace the anode rod every 5 years you'd extend the life of the water heater. Also drain the sediment at least once a year.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Maintenance on an electric water heater, I have drained the water out and used a shop vac to clean the sediment out of the bottom of the hot water heater tank.. I've also replaced the anodes a few times, you just drain the tank, install the new anodes and let the tank fill back up before you turn it on. I wouldn't want to do any of this work in a crawl space. Good luck.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Ref: Anode replacement. There is no reason to drain the tank, especially in a crawl space.
Note that most original equipment anodes are single piece rods. You may not be able to pull one of these out in one piece from a water heater in a crawl space, so the easiest solution is to cut it up as you draw it out of the tank. A bolt cutter and vise grip pliers are useful for this.
Many replacement anodes are segmented. Measure the depth of your tank, and cut as necessary, leaving a good margin to avoid the tank bottom and any accumulated sediment.
Ralph
Note that most original equipment anodes are single piece rods. You may not be able to pull one of these out in one piece from a water heater in a crawl space, so the easiest solution is to cut it up as you draw it out of the tank. A bolt cutter and vise grip pliers are useful for this.
Many replacement anodes are segmented. Measure the depth of your tank, and cut as necessary, leaving a good margin to avoid the tank bottom and any accumulated sediment.
Ralph
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Two words: impact wrench.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pm ....
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
I wouldn't recommend an impact on a 19 year old water heater unless you want to spin the "O" let right out of the tank.Bengineer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:33 amTwo words: impact wrench.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pm ....
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
This is correct. DO NOT buy the garbage they sell at hardware stores, even if it has a brand name. I'm speaking from experience after a 3 year old water heater failed. I'd have them buy it from a plumbing supply store, or at least buy the model with the longer warranty. If $1,750 is including installation, I think that's a steal.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 amManufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
I've never tried to get my anode out, but now that I just replaced the W/H, I'm going to try to replace it on schedule for this new one. Maybe I'll try breaking the threads once per year.
As for breaking the threads, instead of an impact wrench, you can try a conventional wrench and give it a few taps with a hammer. What I'm saying is: put the wrench on it, and tap the wrench, not the bolt. Short, light jolts. I've successfully used this method on things like fragile brass bonnet nuts on shower valves. If you don't overdo it, you won't ream out the threads like you easily will do with an impact wrench. There's little danger with lightweight taps. This doesn't always work, yet amazingly it can work many times.
As for breaking the threads, instead of an impact wrench, you can try a conventional wrench and give it a few taps with a hammer. What I'm saying is: put the wrench on it, and tap the wrench, not the bolt. Short, light jolts. I've successfully used this method on things like fragile brass bonnet nuts on shower valves. If you don't overdo it, you won't ream out the threads like you easily will do with an impact wrench. There's little danger with lightweight taps. This doesn't always work, yet amazingly it can work many times.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Yes, in principle. Tried it. Does not budge.Bengineer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:33 amTwo words: impact wrench.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pm ....
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
Also tried hammering; propane torch; tightening it before trying to loosen it. It is welded in place.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Well, Chuckles960, 19 years ain't bad. Consider yourself blessed.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:03 amYes, in principle. Tried it. Does not budge.Bengineer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:33 amTwo words: impact wrench.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pm ....
(My 6-year-warranted water heater is currently 19 years old; I wish I could see the state of the anode, but I haven't been able to get it open without causing the whole water heater to move.)
Also tried hammering; propane torch; tightening it before trying to loosen it. It is welded in place.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
It depends on where you live, in my area it would be a little on the high side, but not terrible.
I just had a 50 gallon Bradford White gas installed and it was $1,235 out the door from a legit plumbing outfit that's been around for several decades. New fittings and an upgraded brass drain valve. But the tank is also easy to get to.
FWIW, I've been using the same plumber that's a family business that's been around a long time and they said they stopped carrying AO Smith despite using them forever because they started to have so many call backs after install. They went with Bradford White almost exclusively.
I just had a 50 gallon Bradford White gas installed and it was $1,235 out the door from a legit plumbing outfit that's been around for several decades. New fittings and an upgraded brass drain valve. But the tank is also easy to get to.
FWIW, I've been using the same plumber that's a family business that's been around a long time and they said they stopped carrying AO Smith despite using them forever because they started to have so many call backs after install. They went with Bradford White almost exclusively.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Unless their design has improved, BW tanks share a single water supply and anode fitting. Makes anode replacement more difficult. Here’s my experience regarding BW tanks:illumination wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:49 am It depends on where you live, in my area it would be a little on the high side, but not terrible.
I just had a 50 gallon Bradford White gas installed and it was $1,235 out the door from a legit plumbing outfit that's been around for several decades. New fittings and an upgraded brass drain valve. But the tank is also easy to get to.
FWIW, I've been using the same plumber that's a family business that's been around a long time and they said they stopped carrying AO Smith despite using them forever because they started to have so many call backs after install. They went with Bradford White almost exclusively.
viewtopic.php?p=5741409#p5741409
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Back in business school which is a few more decades ago than I'd like to admit. We did a case study on a home water heater manufacturer who basically sold two lines of water heater one that was marketed as entry level and one marketed as higher quality with a longer warranty that reflected this additional quality. However both lines of heaters were exactly the same (no difference). The higher cost one that was marketed as higher quality was really just a back door way of selling an extended warranty in that the extra cost was paying for a long warranty no more and no less (it was also more expensive that just buying an extended warranty separately). It was basically a way to market an extended warranty to folks who would never buy one otherwise. No idea if this is still a thing.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:58 amManufacturers make a cheaper version for HD/Lowes/etc., and a supposedly more rugged (and more expensive) version of the same brand sold to professionals.Harry Livermore wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:14 am The price sounds just a little fat (I had been looking at an AO Smith short 40-gal unit for our rental and it lists under $800 retail at Lowes)
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Well, this is the question. There seems to be no easily available information on whether the 12-year water heater has two anodes, one "better" anode, or is the same thing as the 6-year heater except for the warranty. Various people claim stuff (e.g. posts in this thread, YouTube videos...), but no reliable confirmation. Similarly, is the professional grade different in relevant ways from the big box grade or is it just branding? I haven't seen Consumer Reports, Wirecutter etc address this.THY4373 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:26 pm...The higher cost one that was marketed as higher quality was really just a back door way of selling an extended warranty in that the extra cost was paying for a long warranty no more and no less (it was also more expensive that just buying an extended warranty separately). It was basically a way to market an extended warranty to folks who would never buy one otherwise. No idea if this is still a thing.
It's a little like mattress sales, different versions from the same company through different channels, no clear information on differences----this allows salespeople to claim anything they want. It's sleazy.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
neilpilot wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:42 pmUnless their design has improved, BW tanks share a single water supply and anode fitting. Makes anode replacement more difficult. Here’s my experience regarding BW tanks:illumination wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:49 am It depends on where you live, in my area it would be a little on the high side, but not terrible.
I just had a 50 gallon Bradford White gas installed and it was $1,235 out the door from a legit plumbing outfit that's been around for several decades. New fittings and an upgraded brass drain valve. But the tank is also easy to get to.
FWIW, I've been using the same plumber that's a family business that's been around a long time and they said they stopped carrying AO Smith despite using them forever because they started to have so many call backs after install. They went with Bradford White almost exclusively.
viewtopic.php?p=5741409#p5741409
So it adds 5 minutes to the job that you have to unscrew the water supply to get to it?
I'm just assuming my plumber is telling the truth that the other brand had enough issues with installs that he went with Bradford White.
I just replaced 2 water heaters in my home, different brands. Neither one has ever had the anode rod changed and both went close to 25 years. And they were still fine with no leaks, I just decided it was time. The room I have them in, ceiling is too low. There's ways around that, but I just decided to take the "hit" in lifespan and not worry about changing it.
I like to drain my water tanks annually if I can, but I'm sort of skeptical how much it makes a difference. I've heard some plumbers say its a waste of time. Even when you drain it, it leaves a lot of sediment inside. I could hear a lot of it in my tank, sounded like popcorn, even after flushing it. I think after a certain time period, just a good idea to replace anyway because of the sediment. Even if its not leaking.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Maybe the link below answers the question, at least for Rheem:THY4373 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:26 pmBack in business school which is a few more decades ago than I'd like to admit. We did a case study on a home water heater manufacturer who basically sold two lines of water heater one that was marketed as entry level and one marketed as higher quality with a longer warranty that reflected this additional quality. However both lines of heaters were exactly the same (no difference). The higher cost one that was marketed as higher quality was really just a back door way of selling an extended warranty in that the extra cost was paying for a long warranty no more and no less (it was also more expensive that just buying an extended warranty separately). It was basically a way to market an extended warranty to folks who would never buy one otherwise. No idea if this is still a thing.
https://www.wilmar.com/Sku/35-85799/rhe ... 07-sp20865
"Rheem ProtectionPlus 4-Year Warranty Extension Kit"...
[image of second anode that goes in hot water outlet]...
"Protection Plus is a 4-year warranty extension kit to be used for new Rheem water heater installations...."
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Good advice. I would just add that IF you can find space in the house, then a heat pump water heater (HPWH) would be a good investment. Lots of incentives to buy them right now, and they use 1/3rd of the electricity of conventional. Lower Total Cost of Ownership.
I agree with OP that tankless systems are not that great... maintenance issues are a real problem.
I agree with OP that tankless systems are not that great... maintenance issues are a real problem.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
That's pretty amusing and actually provides evidence opposite of what you might think. That's a $20 anode that they are selling for $150, which just happens to be about what a water heater with an extended warranty costs without a second anode. This anode is just for show, to make you think you are getting something for your money. You could just toss it aside and slap the 4-year warranty extension label on the heater and be done with it. You've got an extended warranty and less unnecessary labor.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:16 pmMaybe the link below answers the question, at least for Rheem:THY4373 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:26 pmBack in business school which is a few more decades ago than I'd like to admit. We did a case study on a home water heater manufacturer who basically sold two lines of water heater one that was marketed as entry level and one marketed as higher quality with a longer warranty that reflected this additional quality. However both lines of heaters were exactly the same (no difference). The higher cost one that was marketed as higher quality was really just a back door way of selling an extended warranty in that the extra cost was paying for a long warranty no more and no less (it was also more expensive that just buying an extended warranty separately). It was basically a way to market an extended warranty to folks who would never buy one otherwise. No idea if this is still a thing.
https://www.wilmar.com/Sku/35-85799/rhe ... 07-sp20865
"Rheem ProtectionPlus 4-Year Warranty Extension Kit"...
[image of second anode that goes in hot water outlet]...
"Protection Plus is a 4-year warranty extension kit to be used for new Rheem water heater installations...."
You can look at the off the shelf Rheem 6, 9 and 12 year heaters and they don't have a second anode. They are identical and you are just paying for the extended warranty. This vastly overpriced and mostly useless anode is just an excuse to upsell an extended warranty.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Yes, $150 is a very high price for the anode. No, the second anode is not "useless".billaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:48 pm That's pretty amusing and actually provides evidence opposite of what you might think. That's a $20 anode that they are selling for $150, which just happens to be about what a water heater with an extended warranty costs without a second anode. This anode is just for show, to make you think you are getting something for your money. You could just toss it aside and slap the 4-year warranty extension label on the heater and be done with it. You've got an extended warranty and less unnecessary labor.
You can look at the off the shelf Rheem 6, 9 and 12 year heaters and they don't have a second anode. They are identical and you are just paying for the extended warranty. This vastly overpriced and mostly useless anode is just an excuse to upsell an extended warranty.
If I were able to install a water heater myself, I would probably add an anode to the hot water outlet. However, this is beyond my DIY capabilities. Local installers are uniformly charging about $1000 plus the retail price of the water heater. It's absurd. $150 for an installed second anode is also one of those things, you gotta pay. But it is not worthless.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
If it's not worthless, then why don't they just put two anodes in every heater? Their cost of a second anode would be maybe $10 at the factory. Apparently they do not think it's worth even $10 to put it in at the factory. Instead they charge $150 for some hocus pocus which just happens to be the cost of an extended warranty if they bought it with the original heater with no second anode.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:10 amYes, $150 is a very high price for the anode. No, the second anode is not "useless".billaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:48 pm That's pretty amusing and actually provides evidence opposite of what you might think. That's a $20 anode that they are selling for $150, which just happens to be about what a water heater with an extended warranty costs without a second anode. This anode is just for show, to make you think you are getting something for your money. You could just toss it aside and slap the 4-year warranty extension label on the heater and be done with it. You've got an extended warranty and less unnecessary labor.
You can look at the off the shelf Rheem 6, 9 and 12 year heaters and they don't have a second anode. They are identical and you are just paying for the extended warranty. This vastly overpriced and mostly useless anode is just an excuse to upsell an extended warranty.
If I were able to install a water heater myself, I would probably add an anode to the hot water outlet. However, this is beyond my DIY capabilities. Local installers are uniformly charging about $1000 plus the retail price of the water heater. It's absurd. $150 for an installed second anode is also one of those things, you gotta pay. But it is not worthless.
And by worthless, I mean it in the context of the risk of a water heater failure over a 6, 9, or 12 year period.
Re: Water heater replacement, etc
Get the 6-year model and replace the anode with a powered anode that is usually made of titanium but requires AC power for he wall-wart transformer. A powered anode should easily last 20+ years. I think the code is to have the water heater at least 23" above the ground. If your new unit comes with a Flame Vapor (FV) sensor depending on the climate many can have false positives (extreme cold or extreme heat). You can also invest in a water leak sensor that can shut electrical and water supply to the water heater. I use the Corro-Protec powered anode. To see how it works look hereterran wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:50 pm Our new to us house needs the water heater replaced. It's in the crawlspace, so it will be need to be a short and fat unit, which makes it a little more expensive. The plumber is quoting $1750 for a 40 gallon electric A.O. smith 6 year warranty unit, expansion tank (required by code), and a stand to get it up off the ground more than the pavers under the current unit. We're kind of in triage mode right now with what we need to do around the place, so I'd rather not do the whole get a bunch of quotes thing if this is the ballpark of what's reasonable?
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
Best Wishes
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
How much current does the powered anode draw? What is the lifespan of the powered anode?enad wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:47 pmGet the 6-year model and replace the anode with a powered anode that is usually made of titanium but requires AC power for he wall-wart transformer. A powered anode should easily last 20+ years. I think the code is to have the water heater at least 23" above the ground. If your new unit comes with a Flame Vapor (FV) sensor depending on the climate many can have false positives (extreme cold or extreme heat). You can also invest in a water leak sensor that can shut electrical and water supply to the water heater. I use the Corro-Protec powered anode. To see how it works look hereterran wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:50 pm Our new to us house needs the water heater replaced. It's in the crawlspace, so it will be need to be a short and fat unit, which makes it a little more expensive. The plumber is quoting $1750 for a 40 gallon electric A.O. smith 6 year warranty unit, expansion tank (required by code), and a stand to get it up off the ground more than the pavers under the current unit. We're kind of in triage mode right now with what we need to do around the place, so I'd rather not do the whole get a bunch of quotes thing if this is the ballpark of what's reasonable?
I asked about a 12 year unit too. The plumber says it's the same tank with an upgraded anode rod he installs and the a longer warranty period from the manufacturer. He said he usually tells people the 6 year unit should last 15-20 years, and he can't say how much more time the 12 year unit gets you. He can get me a quote for that on Monday, but I'm not sure it's worth it? I'd say it's highly unlikely we'll still own this house in 15-20 years.
The home inspector suggested the idea of moving the water heater up out of the crawlspace with the thinking that it might last longer in better conditioned space. The plumber didn't seem to think this would be worth it, but gave me a quote anyway for about $500 more. It would also mean we'd be turning a small walk-in closet in a secondary bedroom into a regular depth closet (only room for a clothing rod) with a door of some kind at the back (which I'd have to buy and install). I'm inclined to go with the professional's opinion on this with the caveat that I'd like to spend as little time in the crawlspace on a regular basis as I can. Is there maintenance I should be doing on a water heater? How much less life am I likely do get out of a water heater if I just ignore it and let it sit down there?
On a related note, I like to turn off the water when we leave the house for really any amount of time overnight or more (I got a quote to add a loop with a shutoff valve in the same closet mentioned above). I think this means I should also turn off the water heater when I shut off the water? Can I just do this from the electric panel, or will I need to go down into the crawlspace to do something with the water heater? That would defeat the purpose of adding a shutoff valve upstairs.
Thanks!
Best Wishes
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
They don't put 2 anodes or special linings in retail residential water heaters because of the cost. High end commercial water heaters like PVI and Lochinvar cost a mint. The average handy homeowner isn't going to pay $5k for a 50 gallon tank water heater.billaster wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:48 pmIf it's not worthless, then why don't they just put two anodes in every heater? Their cost of a second anode would be maybe $10 at the factory. Apparently they do not think it's worth even $10 to put it in at the factory. Instead they charge $150 for some hocus pocus which just happens to be the cost of an extended warranty if they bought it with the original heater with no second anode.Chuckles960 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:10 amYes, $150 is a very high price for the anode. No, the second anode is not "useless".billaster wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:48 pm That's pretty amusing and actually provides evidence opposite of what you might think. That's a $20 anode that they are selling for $150, which just happens to be about what a water heater with an extended warranty costs without a second anode. This anode is just for show, to make you think you are getting something for your money. You could just toss it aside and slap the 4-year warranty extension label on the heater and be done with it. You've got an extended warranty and less unnecessary labor.
You can look at the off the shelf Rheem 6, 9 and 12 year heaters and they don't have a second anode. They are identical and you are just paying for the extended warranty. This vastly overpriced and mostly useless anode is just an excuse to upsell an extended warranty.
If I were able to install a water heater myself, I would probably add an anode to the hot water outlet. However, this is beyond my DIY capabilities. Local installers are uniformly charging about $1000 plus the retail price of the water heater. It's absurd. $150 for an installed second anode is also one of those things, you gotta pay. But it is not worthless.
And by worthless, I mean it in the context of the risk of a water heater failure over a 6, 9, or 12 year period.
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Re: Water heater replacement, etc
It is called multiple pricing. They can sell two "products" based on the same basic device. And, as you said, make a tidy profit on the anode. The idea is to give people options, let some people have the choice to pay more.billaster wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:48 pm If it's not worthless, then why don't they just put two anodes in every heater? Their cost of a second anode would be maybe $10 at the factory. Apparently they do not think it's worth even $10 to put it in at the factory. Instead they charge $150 for some hocus pocus which just happens to be the cost of an extended warranty if they bought it with the original heater with no second anode...
These days there is no money in making the best possible base product. In cars, for example, the things you get by going up from the S model to XL to Grand Touring or whatever do not cost them anything near the price difference (and some firmware features are already there and just need to be enabled); but people buy the more expensive versions because they want those features.