Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

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nyc212
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Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

My husband and I don't have children, and, previously, we had designated a niece, who was also a beneficiary, as our uncompensated Power of Attorney ("POA"). However, circumstances have changed, and we have no longer included the niece as a beneficiary or POA.

Our new POA agent is a younger friend who is a significant beneficiary and will care for our pets upon our demise.

Our liquid assets are ~ $10MM and we hope the bulk of that will go to beneficiaries and charities and not for long term care needs. However, we are firm that, to the extent that we can, we want to remain in our condo when we become incapacitated.

We envision the POA duties as: paying bills for condo and trusts, retaining accountant to file income tax returns, supervising home care aides.

QUESTIONS:
1. Have I missed categories of POA duties?
2. Any thoughts about appropriate compensation for a non-family member POA given that she is a beneficiary to the estate assets?
3. In lieu of taxable compensation, wouldn't it make more sense to permit her to give herself (non-taxable) gifts (e.g. annual $15K tax free gifts of $30K for a couple)?
4. What restrictions should we place on gift giving*?
5. Can anyone provide specific language that have used to customize their POA forms.

*I posted a previous POA related thread re POA and gift giving but that was when we had a different POA in agent in mind and had no thought through gift giving as related to compensation for POA duties.
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Last edited by nyc212 on Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compensation for non-family POA agent?

Post by Swansea »

It depends upon how complicated your estate will be. Even a relatively simple one owning home, autos, etc. can require a lot of work. I have no relatives, and I think it is too much to ask even from a very dear friend.
I have an estate attorney who will serve as my agent.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

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Following.

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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by Watty »

I am not a lawyer but it sounds like you need to have it set up for them to administer some sort of trust instead of trying to do this with a POA.

That would also be a lot cleaner just in case they are not able to do it and someone else needs to take car of things.

This is really not a good DIY situation so you should talk to a lawyer that specializes in elder care law about this since it sounds like your net worth is significant. Your state laws may also be a factor in deciding what is best.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by HomeStretch »

Your POA duties have a mix of healthcare and financial responsibilities. You and spouse likely each need a POA for financial matters and a healthcare agent.

If incapacitated or need assistance as you age:
1) who will manage the investments held in trust?
2) who will assist you with Dr appts, hospital visits, Medicare, insurance companies, medication management, and SSA?
3) as you plan to live in your condo, who will handle grocery shopping, cleaning, insurance renewals, utilities, service calls, HOA interface?

Does the person in mind as POA:
- live nearby?
- not travel?
- healthy?
- have other responsibilities such as a job or family?

If you want to remain in your condo and expect one person to handle all financial, healthcare and facility-related matters on your behalf, I think it’s too big of a job having done this for my parents (with some help from siblings and a part time aide). The quality/reliability/availability of home health aides is poor in my experience despite the expense.

Who is the back-up person in case something happens to your POA?
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

HomeStretch wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:30 am Your POA duties have a mix of healthcare and financial responsibilities. You and spouse likely each need a POA for financial matters and a healthcare agent.
...
Who is the back-up person in case something happens to your POA?
Thanks for your thoughtful notes.

Is it the POA or healthcare agent who decides, for health related reasons, if my spouse and/or I must move to a different residence/facility?

Our back up is the POA's sister or another friend, but he recently relocated 50% out of the country, and it would be better to have someone local.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by HomeStretch »

nyc212 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:25 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:30 am Your POA duties have a mix of healthcare and financial responsibilities. You and spouse likely each need a POA for financial matters and a healthcare agent.
...
Who is the back-up person in case something happens to your POA?
Thanks for your thoughtful notes.

Is it the POA or healthcare agent who decides, for health related reasons, if my spouse and/or I must move to a different residence/facility?

Our back up is the POA's sister or another friend, but he recently relocated 50% out of the country, and it would be better to have someone local.
Consult with an experienced trusts and estate attorney in your state. The attorney can advise you how to word the financial/healthcare POAs if you want to limit your attorney-in-fact(AIF)/agent’s ability to make the decision (solely or at all) to sell your primary residence or to move you to a facility. Maybe it can require your doctor or a family member to agree with the decisions.

Perhaps you can discuss with the attorney your choices of primary and successor AIF/agents as well as gifts/compensation. You may want to consider a trust company as a successor.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by galawdawg »

I recommend that you discuss these matters with an experienced and trusted estate planning attorney. There are a number of issues at play that are beyond the ken of those without specialized knowledge and experience in both the legal and tax considerations of estate planning.

Good luck!
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by mtnlover »

I'm not sure you appreciate the duties involved in managing the care of a very elderly/infirm person. I'd like so share some experience.

Parent abjectly refused even to consider any kind of congregate senior living arrangement. Parent managed from age 90 to 95 with the assistance of FOUR children, 2 of whom lived locally - one next door. Parent then had a major health crisis that required someone to be present at all times, 24 hrs a day. Other services needed were physical therapy, doc appointments, bathing and toileting, transportation, groceries and meals, laundry, home and yard maintenance, bill pay -- all the other ordinary duties of running a household.

Home health care service was called in. Other than having a warm body in the house who would call 911 in an emergency, they were useless. Due to their low level of expertise, they were not permitted to supervise or administer meds. We found them sleeping on the job. They absconded with high level pain meds. There was no consistency in personnel, so you might have many different aides in a single week, all of whom had to be brought up to speed on their first visit. It was a TOTAL DISASTER and one sibling spent many hours a week managing the mess.

After a lot of pain, suffering and weight loss, parent was moved to a private room in a CCRC (skilled nursing unit) on a pay-as-you-go plan. Has gained 25 lbs, meds are administered according to doc orders, food is enjoyed, etc. Parent is not bedridden, but not mobile, either. Seems to still enjoy life and has pretty good cognitive function for age 99.

My purpose in telling this story is to point out that you are making a huge "ask" of the younger person. Make some plans for yourself for your old age. Find a corporate trustee to manage your assets when the time comes. By all means determine if this friend is willing to be POA for health/health care proxy. But don't ask them to take on the management of your life. It's too much, even when there are 4 loving children to share the effort.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by J295 »

Engage experienced legal counsel.

I suspect he/she may discuss a professional successor trustee.

Note also that your apparent concept of gifting in lieu of reporting income seems contrary to tax law.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by 123 »

nyc212 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:29 am ...However, we are firm that, to the extent that we can, we want to remain in our condo when we become incapacitated.

We envision the POA duties as: paying bills for condo and trusts, retaining accountant to file income tax returns, supervising home care aides.
It can easily become a full-time job (if not more) to manage another household and ensure that home care aides actually show up (and to always have standby alternative arrangements). To me the value of that level of service would easily be $50K - $100K annually (yes it could be more expensive then basic assisted living for just the managerial overhead of your home).

The total costs of continuing to reside in your own home with significant home care assistance could easily approach $250K or more annually. And even at that cost you probably wouldn't have a back-up manager to address issues during their vacations etc. Commercial assisted living facilities have made a successful business of addressing risks and ensuring that things get done.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by fourwheelcycle »

nyc212 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:29 am My husband and I don't have children ... Our new POA agent is a younger friend who is a significant beneficiary and will care for our pets upon our demise .... to the extent that we can, we want to remain in our condo when we become incapacitated ... POA duties as: paying bills for condo and trusts, retaining accountant to file income tax returns, supervising home care aides.
I cared for my elderly aunt over the last three years of her life as her executor, DPOA for finances and healthcare, and co-trustee of her revocable living trust. I supervised her hospital and post-hospital skilled care, and her move to an assisted living facility near me. I arranged for her hospice care at the end of her life, at age 92. I am currently serving as executor and DPOA for finances and health care for my elderly father, who has a regular will, with no revocable living trust. From age 94 to 100, I have supervised his move from home to assisted living, and now to memory care, with a major hospitalization along the way. My wife and her sister shared this same role for their elderly parents, who required 24/7 aides in their apartment the last four years of their life, with hospice care at the end of each of their lives (they died at 96 and 97, one year apart). Their parents also had DPOAs and wills, without revocable trusts.

Based on all our experiences, it is a lot of work, related to finding and contracting for aides or assisted living, supervising hospital and post-hospital skilled care, paying bills and doing taxes, and settling final estates. It is best done by loving relatives. Your note about needing to find a new POA to replace your younger friend, who is already replacing your previously-designated niece, plus your reference to a very comfortable estate, suggests to me you should seek an experienced, professional fiduciary to perform these roles.

Ideally, the fiduciary would not be a single individual, who might become ill or move away at any time. By any chance, is there a well-established, not-for-profit home health and hospice agency in your area that could take on this role, perhaps as agent for your executor-attorney? If so, this could be the most reliable and compassionate solution for your needs. Another alternative would be a not-for-profit charity, such as a religious organization, that could perform this role, perhaps also with oversight by your executor-attorney, and perhaps in conjunction with a significant bequest to the charity.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

Watty wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:50 am I am not a lawyer but it sounds like you need to have it set up for them to administer some sort of trust instead of trying to do this with a POA.

That would also be a lot cleaner just in case they are not able to do it and someone else needs to take car of things.

This is really not a good DIY situation so you should talk to a lawyer that specializes in elder care law about this since it sounds like your net worth is significant. Your state laws may also be a factor in deciding what is best.
We have Revocable Living Trusts and this POA is also a Trustee/Successor of these RLTs.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

HomeStretch wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:48 pm Consult with an experienced trusts and estate attorney in your state. The attorney can advise you how to word the financial/healthcare POAs if you want to limit your attorney-in-fact(AIF)/agent’s ability to make the decision (solely or at all) to sell your primary residence or to move you to a facility. Maybe it can require your doctor or a family member to agree with the decisions.

Perhaps you can discuss with the attorney your choices of primary and successor AIF/agents as well as gifts/compensation. You may want to consider a trust company as a successor.
Thank you -- adding consent of our doctor of family member before selling the residence is a good idea.

I see that many responders have recommended professional trust companies. We have had accounts with Schwab and Chase for 40 years and despite their invitations to manage our funds, we have never been interested. Actually, rather wary. But I understand your recommendation.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by Mr. Rumples »

There are profit and non-profits which perform some or all of these functions. One option is to find out what they charge.

One thing also to consider is if in the event of having to go into a nursing home/assisted living, if the agent is to make unannounced visits to ensure wellbeing and good treatment. How will those be paid/billed? One company I am familiar with does it in quarter hours, not counting travel.

Some states have specific requirements for pet trusts. (VA's is § 64.2-726. Trust for care of animal.)
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

mtnlover wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 2:59 pm I'm not sure you appreciate the duties involved in managing the care of a very elderly/infirm person. I'd like so share some experience.
...
My purpose in telling this story is to point out that you are making a huge "ask" of the younger person. Make some plans for yourself for your old age. Find a corporate trustee to manage your assets when the time comes. By all means determine if this friend is willing to be POA for health/health care proxy. But don't ask them to take on the management of your life. It's too much, even when there are 4 loving children to share the effort.
I hear you. My father cared for my mother at home for 4 years of cancer and chemo. After she passed, he did not want to be a burden on his children, only one of whom lived locally, so he moved to independent living, where he was content. A few years later, when the stove/oven became a danger, the food was rotten in the fridge and he was seen squirting Lubriderm on his cereal, he was moved to a high end assisted living in the same community. He was an introvert and never partook of social activities. When my brother, his POA, wanted my father to reduce the 40 minute drive to 5 minutes, over protests by my sister and me, Dad was moved to a memory care facility. IMO, the food was inedible. He did not thrive in his room. I found it terribly sad. Of course, one could say, he did not know whaat was going on?

Supposedly, these were the highest quality facilities, and towards the end, my father had FT shifts of private aides. Nonetheless, one night he fell, the staff ignored his pain, despite his aide raising the alarm, my brother chose not to interrupt holiday festivities to visit him, so not until three days later was Dad diagnosed with a broken hip. Hospitalized and unable to move, he caught pneumonia, was placed in hospice and died two weeks later.

I guess one could say the problem is not finding the best POA or best place to live, but rather the inherent process of aging/declining.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by delamer »

The burden you potentially are placing on one person is huge.

Have you discussed the scope of responsibilities with your POA? Has s/he agreed to take them on? The first step I’d take is ask her what she’d like you to do NOW to ease her burden. Like possibly having a third-party handle investments, bill paying, and tax filing (when the time comes) so she can focus on making sure your medical and other physical needs are being taken care of instead of worrying about paying the electric bill?

Would you agree to take on the responsibility of a non-related elder under the set-up that you currently have in place?
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by nyc212 »

fourwheelcycle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:38 am I cared for my elderly aunt over the last three years of her life as her executor, DPOA for finances and healthcare, and co-trustee of her revocable living trust...

Based on all our experiences, it is a lot of work, related to finding and contracting for aides or assisted living, supervising hospital and post-hospital skilled care, paying bills and doing taxes, and settling final estates. It is best done by loving relatives. Your note about needing to find a new POA to replace your younger friend, who is already replacing your previously-designated niece, plus your reference to a very comfortable estate, suggests to me you should seek an experienced, professional fiduciary to perform these roles.

Ideally, the fiduciary would not be a single individual, who might become ill or move away at any time. By any chance, is there a well-established, not-for-profit home health and hospice agency in your area that could take on this role, perhaps as agent for your executor-attorney? If so, this could be the most reliable and compassionate solution for your needs. Another alternative would be a not-for-profit charity, such as a religious organization, that could perform this role, perhaps also with oversight by your executor-attorney, and perhaps in conjunction with a significant bequest to the charity.
Thanks for sharing. My husband was the co-POA, co-Executor, co-Trustee and HCA for his independent living father, who at 84, had an unexpected slip and fall, brain bleed, and need for SNF for several years. The amount and nature of agent duties themselves was not daunting, but the misconduct of the co-agent became a great problem.

To correct a misconception: I did not intend to convey I was seeking a new POA. Happy to report, that the young friend POA and I had a good discussion yesterday and will continue to discuss expectations and possible issues. Based upon many of the comments on this board, my husband and I are more willing to acknowledge that at home private aides may not be possible to the extent that we had preferred, and we are researching assisted living options.

Thank you for your suggestions re alternative such as charities, or religious organizations, but, for the same reason that you state POA duties are best implement by loving relatives, I don't see a third party organization as a conceivable option --- for us. As stated/alluded to by another post somewhere, maybe their is a role for an attorney in a "monitoring" role, but I would never designate an attorney as primary POA/Executor/Trustee. Our experience with more than a dozen estate attorneys and litigators related to parents' estates is that attorneys are wildly expensive and inefficient.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by LilyFleur »

nyc212 wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 10:01 am
HomeStretch wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 1:48 pm Consult with an experienced trusts and estate attorney in your state. The attorney can advise you how to word the financial/healthcare POAs if you want to limit your attorney-in-fact(AIF)/agent’s ability to make the decision (solely or at all) to sell your primary residence or to move you to a facility. Maybe it can require your doctor or a family member to agree with the decisions.

Perhaps you can discuss with the attorney your choices of primary and successor AIF/agents as well as gifts/compensation. You may want to consider a trust company as a successor.
Thank you -- adding consent of our doctor of family member before selling the residence is a good idea.

I see that many responders have recommended professional trust companies. We have had accounts with Schwab and Chase for 40 years and despite their invitations to manage our funds, we have never been interested. Actually, rather wary. But I understand your recommendation.
I manage my own money now, and I have accounts at several financial institutions that I would not name as a corporate trustee. I will be asking my trust attorney for recommendations. It's apples and oranges. Looking ahead to my own infirmity, I will need to pay more for services that I will no longer be able to provide for myself. I will be naming a corporate trustee in the case of my incapacity, and it will not be the low-cost option at Schwab. This is what we had under the terms of my mother's trust. It's a HUGE amount of work, getting rid of possessions, selling a home, doing an estate sale, deciding what assets to use to pay for care, overseeing health insurance claims and paying medical bills. You get what you pay for.

We had a very reliable home health aide company who provided wonderful home health aides for my mother. They did not steal, they were quality people, and they became her friends. You get what you pay for.

We had a wonderful private-pay geriatric social worker who would accompany our mother to doctor visits and communicate with my sister and I in detail, even sharing relevant medical research. You get what you pay for.

If I were you, I would line up all of the above, and have your new POA oversee all of it. Is your POA experienced at overseeing both the financial and health care for aging seniors? Any gifting wishes in the event of your incapacity should be included in the terms of your trust. Your trust should also specify how incapacity will be determined--examination by one doctor? Two? A corporate trustee is governed by law to follow the terms of a trust. The possibility for abuse by one POA is significant. Would you consider your POA being a co-trustee with a corporate trustee? That would provide some checks and balances. Has your trust attorney been involved in this discussion?

Please consider if this person is an heir, their financial interest may not be 100% in seeing to it that you have the highest quality of care. Good care is quite expensive.
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Compensation for non-related Power of Attorney? [NY]

Post by nyc212 »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

My husband and I don't have children. We have named a friend as our primary beneficiary ($4MM) and pet caretaker. We have also decided to name her as our Power of Attorney.
Questions:
1. Could anyone advise how they have specified compensation for an attorney-in-fact (POA) who is not a family member, but is a beneficiary to the estate.
2. Does any one have any general advice as to how they customized/modified their POAs, or did everyone just go with the flow and authorize all A - P functions and gift giving?
3. Did anyone designate a Monitor?
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by LadyGeek »

nyc212 - In order to provide appropriate advice, it's best to keep all the information in one spot. I merged your update back into the original thread. If you have any questions, ask them here.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

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LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:58 am nyc212 - In order to provide appropriate advice, it's best to keep all the information in one spot. I merged your update back into the original thread. If you have any questions, ask them here.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)
Thank you.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by HomeStretch »

Have you consulted with an attorney and received any suggestions on how to handle this?
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

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HomeStretch wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:41 pm Have you consulted with an attorney and received any suggestions on how to handle this?
Yes. I have been consulting the estate attorney who is revising our RLTs, Wills, etc. Per your 9/2/22 advice, I asked him to add the requirement that our physician or family member agree to any decision related to the POA selling the residence.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

Post by RetiredAL »

nyc212 wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:29 am My husband and I don't have children ... Our new POA agent is a younger friend who is a significant beneficiary and will care for our pets upon our demise .... to the extent that we can, we want to remain in our condo when we become incapacitated ... POA duties as: paying bills for condo and trusts, retaining accountant to file income tax returns, supervising home care aides.
fourwheelcycle wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 7:38 am I cared for my elderly aunt over the last three years of her life as her executor, DPOA for finances and healthcare, and co-trustee of her revocable living trust. I supervised her hospital and post-hospital skilled care, and her move to an assisted living facility near me. I arranged for her hospice care at the end of her life, at age 92. I am currently serving as executor and DPOA for finances and health care for my elderly father, who has a regular will, with no revocable living trust. From age 94 to 100, I have supervised his move from home to assisted living, and now to memory care, with a major hospitalization along the way. My wife and her sister shared this same role for their elderly parents, who required 24/7 aides in their apartment the last four years of their life, with hospice care at the end of each of their lives (they died at 96 and 97, one year apart). Their parents also had DPOAs and wills, without revocable trusts.

Based on all our experiences, it is a lot of work, related to finding and contracting for aides or assisted living, supervising hospital and post-hospital skilled care, paying bills and doing taxes, and settling final estates. It is best done by loving relatives. Your note about needing to find a new POA to replace your younger friend, who is already replacing your previously-designated niece, plus your reference to a very comfortable estate, suggests to me you should seek an experienced, professional fiduciary to perform these roles.

Ideally, the fiduciary would not be a single individual, who might become ill or move away at any time. By any chance, is there a well-established, not-for-profit home health and hospice agency in your area that could take on this role, perhaps as agent for your executor-attorney? If so, this could be the most reliable and compassionate solution for your needs. Another alternative would be a not-for-profit charity, such as a religious organization, that could perform this role, perhaps also with oversight by your executor-attorney, and perhaps in conjunction with a significant bequest to the charity.
I recently lost my very elderly Dad. His last 3-1/2 years were in an Assisted Living Facility. My experience, even with him in Assisted, has been that 1-1/2 to 2 days per week of my time has been needed to manage his affairs. Since he was 1-3/4 hrs away, the weekly visits made for a long day.

Before Assisted, I lived with him for 3 months. Even with 2 shifts of in-home assistants, it was overall very demanding of my effort and time. I rarely got a full night's sleep and I became very stressed out. It became apparent that he would never improve enough to not require constant 24hr support, in part due to his home layout.

His senior facility had Independent, Assisted, and Nursing levels. A few years before he took ill, he had come close to moving into Independent. He always knew that when he became too feeble, that Assisted would happen, and he was very accepting when that happened.
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Re: Compensation/gift giving for non-family POA agent?

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RetiredAL wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:25 pm I recently lost my very elderly Dad. His last 3-1/2 years were in an Assisted Living Facility. My experience, even with him in Assisted, has been that 1-1/2 to 2 days per week of my time has been needed to manage his affairs. Since he was 1-3/4 hrs away, the weekly visits made for a long day.

Before Assisted, I lived with him for 3 months. Even with 2 shifts of in-home assistants, it was overall very demanding of my effort and time. I rarely got a full night's sleep and I became very stressed out. It became apparent that he would never improve enough to not require constant 24hr support, in part due to his home layout.

His senior facility had Independent, Assisted, and Nursing levels. A few years before he took ill, he had come close to moving into Independent. He always knew that when he became too feeble, that Assisted would happen, and he was very accepting when that happened.
I am sorry for your loss. He/you were lucky that you tended to his needs before and after Assisted Living.

My father moved from house to independent living, Assisted Living, then memory care and his care was overseen by my brother who lived in the same city.

My husband and I do not want to be a burden on anyone, but institutional living is a last resort for us. I think this revision of estate documents in an improvement over the last round. Meanwhile, to the extent possible, we continue to simplify all finances in anticipation that someday someone will need to oversee situation.

Thank you for sharing.
nyc212
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