Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Hi all,
We are in the process of updating our panel and the local power company (SDGE) is giving us much grief with the process. Basically, our two options are:
1) Single-day cutover (probably half a day without power?) on October 13th
2) 2-day cutover on Sept 1st and 2nd. Disconnect would occur at 10am on Sept 1st and the reconnect would occur around the same time on Sept 2nd (so this sounds like at least a 24hr event without power)
Right now, a major concern is that we have a 10'x3' section of trench (ranging from 4-6' deep) exposed on our front lawn. This just seems like a liability and the sooner we can get it backfilled the better. But we have to leave it open for the POCO to have working room to finish the connection to the handhole and all this would occur the day of the cutover. I'm leaning towards opting for the Sept 1st-2nd cutover but would be concerned about our freezer and fridge in particular. If they are kept closed, will the temps maintain for at least 24hours if not more? I'm sure we can figure something out to go out of town or be out of the house both days otherwise. I'm still deliberating as I'd obviously prefer not to have to do any of that.
EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
We are in the process of updating our panel and the local power company (SDGE) is giving us much grief with the process. Basically, our two options are:
1) Single-day cutover (probably half a day without power?) on October 13th
2) 2-day cutover on Sept 1st and 2nd. Disconnect would occur at 10am on Sept 1st and the reconnect would occur around the same time on Sept 2nd (so this sounds like at least a 24hr event without power)
Right now, a major concern is that we have a 10'x3' section of trench (ranging from 4-6' deep) exposed on our front lawn. This just seems like a liability and the sooner we can get it backfilled the better. But we have to leave it open for the POCO to have working room to finish the connection to the handhole and all this would occur the day of the cutover. I'm leaning towards opting for the Sept 1st-2nd cutover but would be concerned about our freezer and fridge in particular. If they are kept closed, will the temps maintain for at least 24hours if not more? I'm sure we can figure something out to go out of town or be out of the house both days otherwise. I'm still deliberating as I'd obviously prefer not to have to do any of that.
EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I would get some plywood and cover the trench if there is a possibility of someone or something getting injured. That is inexpensive insurance.
You could buy a remote thermometer and see how quickly your freezer warms up. I think this is something everyone should have for a deep freeze.
I like the idea of running an extension cord from the neighbor's house. Sounds like a good solution to me. If you can do this, then go with the earlier date.
You could buy a remote thermometer and see how quickly your freezer warms up. I think this is something everyone should have for a deep freeze.
I like the idea of running an extension cord from the neighbor's house. Sounds like a good solution to me. If you can do this, then go with the earlier date.
52% TSM, 23% TISM, 24.5% TBM, 0.5% cash
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Assuming SDGE is San Diego, no, I would not expect the freezer and fridge to keep food safe in September, which tends to be our hottest month. But you have plenty of time to eat down your stores and for that time have safer foods in a cooler.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Unless you live someplace currently experiencing really hot temps - your chest freezer should be fine without power for 24 hours provided you don't open it (and it's more or less filled with already frozen stuff). If it's mostly empty (a lot of air space.) that's a different story. Same if the chest freezer is outside or in a garage with out climate control (so the air temps are hitting high hot temps).
Your fridge and freezer is a different story depending on what you have in them.
I had a recent 14 hour outage (most of it overnight) and my basement chest freezer was fine - everything in it stayed rock hard frozen. My refrigerator freezer was ok too. I did quickly empty out the ice cube "bucket" in the door as I wasn't sure how long the power would be out and didn't want a watery mess.
I didn't have much questionable food (like lunch meat or leftovers or milk) in my fridge when the outage happened so I lucked out. The condiments, eggs, greek yogurt, cheeses, butter, tofu, veggies, and fruit survived. I made an effort to eat the yogurt, opened cheeses, and eggs in the week after the outage.
That said... since you KNOW the dates of your outage - you can plan ahead of time to have used up the truly perishable foods in your fridge and fridge freezer. You can plan ahead of time to have a cooler or two (get some use out of that Yeti cooler you may have purchased in a fit of FOMO. with ice and the foods/beverages you will need to get you thru the outage time frame so you don't have to open the fridge or freezer or chest freezer.
I believe the going "rule of thumb" is that a newer chest freezer (any size) will stay frozen between 2 and 3 days (assuming it's not sitting in a hot area (like a garage or outside on a porch). A typical fridge/freezer will maintain OK temps up to 24 hours if it's not opened and it's not in a hot area (like a garage or outside on a porch).
I would take this opportunity starting now to do an inventory and to start using up what you can from your fridge/freezer.
I lucked out - in that my unexpected power outage hit when I was completing a "30 day survivor challenge" where I make the effort to make a dent in all the stuff I have "stocked up on or frozen for later" that are getting towards their "best used by dates". That's the problem with "stocking up" - you need to have a plan to USE up what you bought
Your fridge and freezer is a different story depending on what you have in them.
I had a recent 14 hour outage (most of it overnight) and my basement chest freezer was fine - everything in it stayed rock hard frozen. My refrigerator freezer was ok too. I did quickly empty out the ice cube "bucket" in the door as I wasn't sure how long the power would be out and didn't want a watery mess.
I didn't have much questionable food (like lunch meat or leftovers or milk) in my fridge when the outage happened so I lucked out. The condiments, eggs, greek yogurt, cheeses, butter, tofu, veggies, and fruit survived. I made an effort to eat the yogurt, opened cheeses, and eggs in the week after the outage.
That said... since you KNOW the dates of your outage - you can plan ahead of time to have used up the truly perishable foods in your fridge and fridge freezer. You can plan ahead of time to have a cooler or two (get some use out of that Yeti cooler you may have purchased in a fit of FOMO. with ice and the foods/beverages you will need to get you thru the outage time frame so you don't have to open the fridge or freezer or chest freezer.
I believe the going "rule of thumb" is that a newer chest freezer (any size) will stay frozen between 2 and 3 days (assuming it's not sitting in a hot area (like a garage or outside on a porch). A typical fridge/freezer will maintain OK temps up to 24 hours if it's not opened and it's not in a hot area (like a garage or outside on a porch).
I would take this opportunity starting now to do an inventory and to start using up what you can from your fridge/freezer.
I lucked out - in that my unexpected power outage hit when I was completing a "30 day survivor challenge" where I make the effort to make a dent in all the stuff I have "stocked up on or frozen for later" that are getting towards their "best used by dates". That's the problem with "stocking up" - you need to have a plan to USE up what you bought
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Ambient temperature is important. I think one time we had a roughly 1-day outage during mild summer weather (low 70's?), some food in our freezer started to get soft. It didn't fully thaw, but I think texture was affected on some of it due to refreezing.
You could inquire among your neighbors if any of them have a generator or a good inverter they would be willing to loan you to plug the freezer into for a couple hours. It won't need to run the full time. Just once or twice a day for a couple hours to get back down to the set temperature.
Regarding the trench: I'm the sort to generally view many liability concerns as overblown, but since this isn't for me, I'll put a check on that bias by discussing how we'd treat the trench you describe at work:
If it's over 18 inches, it would be strongly encouraged to protect it, as it is a tripping concern with some risk of injury, but there would be some discretion allowed. If it's difficult to protect, and people generally don't have a reason to be close to it, it wouldn't necessary be required. If it's over 4 feet, OSHA defines it as a fall hazard, and we would be required to protect it, either by covering it or putting railing around it. For temporary projects, that usually means covering it in plywood that is secured so it wouldn't slide around, or using 2x4's to make guardrails.
You could inquire among your neighbors if any of them have a generator or a good inverter they would be willing to loan you to plug the freezer into for a couple hours. It won't need to run the full time. Just once or twice a day for a couple hours to get back down to the set temperature.
Regarding the trench: I'm the sort to generally view many liability concerns as overblown, but since this isn't for me, I'll put a check on that bias by discussing how we'd treat the trench you describe at work:
If it's over 18 inches, it would be strongly encouraged to protect it, as it is a tripping concern with some risk of injury, but there would be some discretion allowed. If it's difficult to protect, and people generally don't have a reason to be close to it, it wouldn't necessary be required. If it's over 4 feet, OSHA defines it as a fall hazard, and we would be required to protect it, either by covering it or putting railing around it. For temporary projects, that usually means covering it in plywood that is secured so it wouldn't slide around, or using 2x4's to make guardrails.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
If you have an enormous amount of food that could be costly to replace you might see about renting a generator. At the current prices for food, it might not have to be an enormous amount of food for the replacement cost to be high!
It has been my experience that schedules provided by the various utilities are at best a possibility the work will be started sometime near the start date, maybe.
It is usually not a risk that the work would be started earlier.
Broken Man 1999
It has been my experience that schedules provided by the various utilities are at best a possibility the work will be started sometime near the start date, maybe.
It is usually not a risk that the work would be started earlier.
Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Good luck, OPjplee3 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm Hi all,
We are in the process of updating our panel and the local power company (SDGE) is giving us much grief with the process. Basically, our two options are:
1) Single-day cutover (probably half a day without power?) on October 13th
2) 2-day cutover on Sept 1st and 2nd. Disconnect would occur at 10am on Sept 1st and the reconnect would occur around the same time on Sept 2nd (so this sounds like at least a 24hr event without power)
Right now, a major concern is that we have a 10'x3' section of trench (ranging from 4-6' deep) exposed on our front lawn. This just seems like a liability and the sooner we can get it backfilled the better. But we have to leave it open for the POCO to have working room to finish the connection to the handhole and all this would occur the day of the cutover. I'm leaning towards opting for the Sept 1st-2nd cutover but would be concerned about our freezer and fridge in particular. If they are kept closed, will the temps maintain for at least 24hours if not more? I'm sure we can figure something out to go out of town or be out of the house both days otherwise. I'm still deliberating as I'd obviously prefer not to have to do any of that.
EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
Last edited by Zeno on Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Extensions cords decrease power flow with distance. If you're going more than 50 feet try to find a cord with heavier wire. Freezers and refrigerators tend to have capacitor start motors which draw more current to get the motor going, or borrow a generator.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Get a battery. You can use it for backup afterward or just sell it locally. Even if you only get half back, that's only $500 and you will have some power for lights, fridge, etc.jplee3 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
EF ECOFLOW Portable Power Station DELTA, UPS Power Supply 1260Wh Battery Pack with 6 1800W (3300W Surge) AC Outlets, Solar Battery Generator for Outdoor Camping RV https://a.co/d/3FWZMaF
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Cover the trench with plywood and put up caution tape around it. Rent a portable generator.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I'd:
1) get plywood planks to cover the trench. (and ask a handyman to secure them somehow)
2) wait until Oct
or,
1) get plywood planks to cover the trench
2) go for Sept cutover
3) rent a generator
1) get plywood planks to cover the trench. (and ask a handyman to secure them somehow)
2) wait until Oct
or,
1) get plywood planks to cover the trench
2) go for Sept cutover
3) rent a generator
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Interesting thread. Following.
Last edited by Zeno on Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
i think it will be fine.
in the weeks beforehand, i would freeze as many water bottles as i could find, so that the interior space of fridge and freezer are full instead of just air.
in the weeks beforehand, i would freeze as many water bottles as i could find, so that the interior space of fridge and freezer are full instead of just air.
60-20-20 us-intl-bond
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Plus you ideally want to plug the appliances into separate circuits - if both compressors start up at the same time, it might trip the neighbor's breaker, depending on what else is on their circuit that you plug the extension cord into (such as if they also have fridge or freezer on that circuit).
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Having a source of backup power is a sensible thing to have these days. There are pros and cons to everything, but why not consider one of these approaches:
+Honda 2200 gas powered generator
+Goal Zero Yeti 3000, a battery based energy bank. See if Costco is still selling them.
With a few extension cords and some conservation, either system could easily get you through a day or two without power.
+Honda 2200 gas powered generator
+Goal Zero Yeti 3000, a battery based energy bank. See if Costco is still selling them.
With a few extension cords and some conservation, either system could easily get you through a day or two without power.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Per FDA the limit on refrigerator is 4 hours. Recently my refrigerator died and I didn't realize it until the next morning - everything was room temperature - that was less than 24 hours.
Here's FDA link with other suggestions on prepping for power outage:
https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serv ... and-floods
Here's FDA link with other suggestions on prepping for power outage:
https://www.fda.gov/food/buy-store-serv ... and-floods
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
This.
And given that you probably can't store - and keep frozen - enough containers of frozen water if that includes the fridge, perhaps plan to purchase a few bags of ice at almost the last minute.
Or see if there is an ice company so you could get a few large pieces of ice then?
And remove things from the fridge that don't *need* to be kept cold, or don't replenish supplies between now and then, e.g., non-perishable beverages. The more you can fill that space with something very cold (e.g., frozen, and preferably at very cold temps) and not with things just "cool", the colder the interior should be.
If you don't open the fridge and freezer doors at all (!), the food should stay cold for what is a relatively short time if the "spaces" are filled with ice.
Before we got our nat gas generator, when there were power outages (usually not announced), we just kept the fridge/freezer doors *closed*, and all was well.
(We got the generator for the sump pump and for heat, but it was also nice to have a few appliances and hall/stair lights connected, too.)
Note: We always keep a ziplock with some frozen ice chunks (e.g., ice cubes) in our freezer so that we can tell IF there has been a thaw. The regular containers of frozen items may "look" the same after a thaw/re-freeze, but the water isn't going to refreeze into pretty cubes.
RM
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
October 13th is a month away. Can’t you just eat the stuff in your freezer/fridge?
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
The issue isn't with the Oct 13th date as much as it is with Sept 1st-2nd IF we chose to go with the earlier but lengthier-process cutover.
We either wait longer until the 10/13 date (in which case we aren't really worried the fridge/food spoilage) but at the expense of having to wait that long (the other thing with this is that it eats into the time we may need for solar panel installation, which the last I heard might have been slated for September - not sure if we need the new service in place prior to them doing the solar install or what so I'm trying to find out) OR we opt for the earlier date 9/1-9/2 and having to deal with figuring out the fridge/food situation.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I would consume some/most of the food and wait to restock any items that need refrigeration.
Have a cooler with ice for that 24+ hours for a small amount of milk, lunch meat, etc.
Other options:
Buy or rent a backup generator (I'd do this, but I already own one for power outages)
Rent a meat locker, or perhaps a friend would let you store a bag of frozen goods or a day
Rent a VRBO apartment for a day and use the fridge there. If you don't have power, you don't
have A/C or fans, you might want to be living somewhere else.
Have a cooler with ice for that 24+ hours for a small amount of milk, lunch meat, etc.
Other options:
Buy or rent a backup generator (I'd do this, but I already own one for power outages)
Rent a meat locker, or perhaps a friend would let you store a bag of frozen goods or a day
Rent a VRBO apartment for a day and use the fridge there. If you don't have power, you don't
have A/C or fans, you might want to be living somewhere else.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
An additional mitigation strategy: Since you can plan for this, a couple of days in advance of disconnect adjust the garage freezer to max cold and the house fridge to as cold as possible without freezing. This should give more safe time without power. If possible, when power ceases cover the freezer with blankets etc. for additional insulation. Don't forget to remove blankets and restore normal settings when power comes back on.
Semper Augustus
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I didn't give the full background here but I would say our situation is actually a bit unique - we had to cut a 60-70' long 3' depth (and deeper graded down to the handhole) trench across a driveway, including breaking concrete across the driveway, walkway and under a stucco/masonry wall, to lay new 3" conduit for a service upgrade. My electrician, along with several others in my area, were saying or implying that many POCOs (including the competing SoCal Edison) will allow for 2" conduit and/or for new feeders to be pulled through the existing conduit? One electrician was saying that SCE will actually handle the installation of the new conduit too. SDGE is putting all of this back onto its customers. At this rate, I'll be paying at least 4x the amount it would have cost to do a simple panel upgrade. There is a ton of red tape and none of the electricians in my area have had good or pleasant experiences with SDGE - they much prefer working with SCE over SDGE any day. Unfortunately, we don't have much of a choice since we're at the mercy of whatever monopoly controls the area (and unfortunately for us, we land on the side of the city that's controlled by SDGE not SCE). On top of all of this, SDGE charges if not the highest rates in the nation, close to it, after all is said and done. /endrant.Zeno wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 pmMy two cents. (Background: We have experienced multi-day power outages due to weather several times. And just last year we had the gas and electrical services upgraded at a rental property we own, the former required trenching. And earlier this year we had a new water line run to the same property which necessitated the excavation of a 6 foot deep trench that was approximately 80 feet in length; that trench, in turn, traversed (read: "destroyed") both the sidewalk and a chunk of the street -- and was "open" for several weeks, with the concrete and asphalt taking about two months to be replaced.)jplee3 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm Hi all,
We are in the process of updating our panel and the local power company (SDGE) is giving us much grief with the process. Basically, our two options are:
1) Single-day cutover (probably half a day without power?) on October 13th
2) 2-day cutover on Sept 1st and 2nd. Disconnect would occur at 10am on Sept 1st and the reconnect would occur around the same time on Sept 2nd (so this sounds like at least a 24hr event without power)
Right now, a major concern is that we have a 10'x3' section of trench (ranging from 4-6' deep) exposed on our front lawn. This just seems like a liability and the sooner we can get it backfilled the better. But we have to leave it open for the POCO to have working room to finish the connection to the handhole and all this would occur the day of the cutover. I'm leaning towards opting for the Sept 1st-2nd cutover but would be concerned about our freezer and fridge in particular. If they are kept closed, will the temps maintain for at least 24hours if not more? I'm sure we can figure something out to go out of town or be out of the house both days otherwise. I'm still deliberating as I'd obviously prefer not to have to do any of that.
EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
1. Your utility isn't giving you grief, they are just doing their job. Not only do they need time to do the work (and permit it in advance), the local code enforcer has to approve it after the work is done.
2. Your situation is pretty common.
3. Obviously, you want to minimize time without power so I would go with October 13th. It will also be cooler then, which would have ancillary benefits.
4. Even if you went with Sept 1-2, you will be fine. Leading up to that event, I would ensure that items such as ice cream and ice cubes are not in your freezer. Everything else (e.g., milk) should easily last for 24 hours. I would just keep the fridge and freezer(s) closed. Do not enter them once the power is off. If you can run power from your neighbor, that would be awesome -- but I don't even think that is necessary on the facts presented unless, for example, you happen to have 500 gallons of Breyers ice cream in bulk storage in your garage.
5. If you are really concerned, you could rent or buy a generator -- again, however, I don't think that is necessary on your facts.
6. As to the trench, the contractors will put out cones, saw horses, crime-scene-esque tape and other safety aides to keep J.Q. Citizen from falling into it. It is the contractors' job to secure the site in accordance with local requirements and industry standards -- and here, it is not just any contractor, it instead is the local utility. (Caveat: the excavation work may be in fact be contracted out by the utility, so I would stay on top of the situation under all scenarios.) The local utility will do it right and be professional. I don't think you need to contact your insurance carrier, and I certainly wouldn't fret about it -- again, however, if the trenching is done by a third party, just make sure they have secured the site. (Caveat: the facts do matter: if you are next door to an elementary school, I would take extra precautions.) Again, we had what amounted to a linear, dry moat slashed through our yard for weeks -- and it even traversed the sidewalk. The area was blocked off. Nobody fell into it. And we didn't worry about it.
Tl;dr: Everything will be fine. And enjoy your upgraded service.
I will need to ask the contractor to make the area safe if we end up decided to go with the 10/13 date especially. Right now I'm still deliberating. I just want this thing to be over with at this point. We've already been in this mess for at least 3 weeks now. And I had been planning it out and collecting quotes over the course of the past half year ever since we moved in. It's been nothing short of a nightmare, and I just want it to be done with.
So right now, it's just me deciding if I want to prolong the pain an extra month OR if I just want to deal with it all up front (in the form of dealing with no power service for at least a full day and possibly more) for the sake of hopefully waking up from the nightmare sooner I can't decide what's worse. Both (seeing our front yard dug up and in shambles OR the thought of having to deal with battery backups/generators/keeping whatever food frozen/having to find another place to sleep potentially/etc) cause me equal amounts of anxiety and stress.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Your chest and kitchen freezers should be perfectly fine as long as you do not open them. I suggest putting some blue painter's tape across the doors just to keep anyone from inadvertently opening them out of habit. Eat up anything you think might spoil from the refrigerator section and leave everything else alone in there. Condiments will be fine. Eggs will be fine. Cheese will be fine. Almost everything in the refrigerator will be fine for 24 hours. Don't open the doors.
Don't delay. Just get it done and be finished with it.
Don't delay. Just get it done and be finished with it.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Since nobody has suggested the obvious -
For freezers: Buy some dry ice the day before. It will hold your freezers COLD COLD for a few days (or longer) if you stick it on top. Probably 10lb for the chest freezer and 10lb for the regular kitchen freezer (less well insulated) as a ballpark. Maybe a small chunk in the fridge too, or just eat the fridge down.
No need for extension cords, generators, etc.
For freezers: Buy some dry ice the day before. It will hold your freezers COLD COLD for a few days (or longer) if you stick it on top. Probably 10lb for the chest freezer and 10lb for the regular kitchen freezer (less well insulated) as a ballpark. Maybe a small chunk in the fridge too, or just eat the fridge down.
No need for extension cords, generators, etc.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
good luck
Last edited by Zeno on Wed Dec 28, 2022 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
LOL - "electrical upgrade purgatory" is a great way to describe it. But yea, it has been a complete nightmare. All of this came up because our insurance company threatened to drop us off the policy. Then I started noticing how our electric bills were getting higher and higher month-over-month, only to learn of the news of SDGE and how they are infamous for jacking prices up and how everyone hates them. This prompted me to go down the solar rabbit hole, which definitely requires a panel update (there was a retrofit option but that would have probably complicated/drawn things and circled us back to "no you can't do that you have to upgrade your panel").Zeno wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:49 pmWow, you are in electrical upgrade purgatory. I feel sorry for you and am out of ideas. I’m sorry that my original comment misunderstood the situation. Best of luck and hang in there.jplee3 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:07 pmI didn't give the full background here but I would say our situation is actually a bit unique ….Zeno wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 pmMy two cents. (Background: We have experienced multi-day power outages due to weather several times. And just last year we had the gas and electrical services upgraded at a rental property we own, the former required trenching. And earlier this year we had a new water line run to the same property which necessitated the excavation of a 6 foot deep trench that was approximately 80 feet in length; that trench, in turn, traversed (read: "destroyed") both the sidewalk and a chunk of the street -- and was "open" for several weeks, with the concrete and asphalt taking about two months to be replaced.)jplee3 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm Hi all,
We are in the process of updating our panel and the local power company (SDGE) is giving us much grief with the process. Basically, our two options are:
1) Single-day cutover (probably half a day without power?) on October 13th
2) 2-day cutover on Sept 1st and 2nd. Disconnect would occur at 10am on Sept 1st and the reconnect would occur around the same time on Sept 2nd (so this sounds like at least a 24hr event without power)
Right now, a major concern is that we have a 10'x3' section of trench (ranging from 4-6' deep) exposed on our front lawn. This just seems like a liability and the sooner we can get it backfilled the better. But we have to leave it open for the POCO to have working room to finish the connection to the handhole and all this would occur the day of the cutover. I'm leaning towards opting for the Sept 1st-2nd cutover but would be concerned about our freezer and fridge in particular. If they are kept closed, will the temps maintain for at least 24hours if not more? I'm sure we can figure something out to go out of town or be out of the house both days otherwise. I'm still deliberating as I'd obviously prefer not to have to do any of that.
EDIT: we might be able to run extension cords from our neighbor's to our garage freezer at least... not sure about the fridge though. I would think 24-30 hours wouldn't be a problem as long as everything is kept shut but I don't know either. Never been without power for that long at a time.
1. Your utility isn't giving you grief, they are just doing their job. Not only do they need time to do the work (and permit it in advance), the local code enforcer has to approve it after the work is done.
2. Your situation is pretty common.
3. Obviously, you want to minimize time without power so I would go with October 13th. It will also be cooler then, which would have ancillary benefits.
4. Even if you went with Sept 1-2, you will be fine. Leading up to that event, I would ensure that items such as ice cream and ice cubes are not in your freezer. Everything else (e.g., milk) should easily last for 24 hours. I would just keep the fridge and freezer(s) closed. Do not enter them once the power is off. If you can run power from your neighbor, that would be awesome -- but I don't even think that is necessary on the facts presented unless, for example, you happen to have 500 gallons of Breyers ice cream in bulk storage in your garage.
5. If you are really concerned, you could rent or buy a generator -- again, however, I don't think that is necessary on your facts.
6. As to the trench, the contractors will put out cones, saw horses, crime-scene-esque tape and other safety aides to keep J.Q. Citizen from falling into it. It is the contractors' job to secure the site in accordance with local requirements and industry standards -- and here, it is not just any contractor, it instead is the local utility. (Caveat: the excavation work may be in fact be contracted out by the utility, so I would stay on top of the situation under all scenarios.) The local utility will do it right and be professional. I don't think you need to contact your insurance carrier, and I certainly wouldn't fret about it -- again, however, if the trenching is done by a third party, just make sure they have secured the site. (Caveat: the facts do matter: if you are next door to an elementary school, I would take extra precautions.) Again, we had what amounted to a linear, dry moat slashed through our yard for weeks -- and it even traversed the sidewalk. The area was blocked off. Nobody fell into it. And we didn't worry about it.
Tl;dr: Everything will be fine. And enjoy your upgraded service.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
billaster wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:39 pm Your chest and kitchen freezers should be perfectly fine as long as you do not open them. I suggest putting some blue painter's tape across the doors just to keep anyone from inadvertently opening them out of habit. Eat up anything you think might spoil from the refrigerator section and leave everything else alone in there. Condiments will be fine. Eggs will be fine. Cheese will be fine. Almost everything in the refrigerator will be fine for 24 hours. Don't open the doors.
Don't delay. Just get it done and be finished with it.
If we decide to do the Sept 1st-2nd extended cutover, then I probably will just buy dry ice. I don't know if we will plan to stay and sleep at home through all this, relying on battery power or if we will try to find a hotel or somewhere to sleep overnight. Either way, this route to get it done ASAP will come with the added expense of buying backup power, an overnight stay somewhere, eating out, etc. Or we wait it out with death by a thousand needles for the 10/13 date. Another way to ask it is this: do I want that "light" at the end of the tunnel to come faster? LOLbadger42 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:40 pm Since nobody has suggested the obvious -
For freezers: Buy some dry ice the day before. It will hold your freezers COLD COLD for a few days (or longer) if you stick it on top. Probably 10lb for the chest freezer and 10lb for the regular kitchen freezer (less well insulated) as a ballpark. Maybe a small chunk in the fridge too, or just eat the fridge down.
No need for extension cords, generators, etc.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
How huge is your fridge and what kind of caviar and do you keep in it that becomes such a big issue? How much is worth the food in there, 100-200$ at most? Can it take more than 2 weeks to finish it? If it takes more, maybe that's the main issue
I live in California and 3-5 days power outages are pretty common. Professional places have generators. For homes is not necessarily but after a while it gets old so I have a 400$ generator. I use it mostly for fridge and IT equipment for work, otherwise I don't really need one, we have couple of flashlights and the kids thinks is fun. The worst is in the winter because the gas heater does not work without electricity.
Yes, this is Bay Area.
Personally I don't put any weight on FDA rules, my grandparents did not even own a fridge in their life and I used to live with them as a kid for weeks in the middle of very hot summers.
I live in California and 3-5 days power outages are pretty common. Professional places have generators. For homes is not necessarily but after a while it gets old so I have a 400$ generator. I use it mostly for fridge and IT equipment for work, otherwise I don't really need one, we have couple of flashlights and the kids thinks is fun. The worst is in the winter because the gas heater does not work without electricity.
Yes, this is Bay Area.
Personally I don't put any weight on FDA rules, my grandparents did not even own a fridge in their life and I used to live with them as a kid for weeks in the middle of very hot summers.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Starfish wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:06 pm How huge is your fridge and what kind of caviar and do you keep in it that becomes such a big issue? How much is worth the food in there, 100-200$ at most? Can it take more than 2 weeks to finish it? If it takes more, maybe that's the main issue
I live in California and 3-5 days power outages are pretty common. Professional places have generators. For homes is not necessarily but after a while it gets old so I have a 400$ generator. I use it mostly for fridge and IT equipment for work, otherwise I don't really need one, we have couple of flashlights and the kids thinks is fun. The worst is in the winter because the gas heater does not work without electricity.
Yes, this is Bay Area.
Personally I don't put any weight on FDA rules, my grandparents did not even own a fridge in their life and I used to live with them as a kid for weeks in the middle of very hot summers.
Lol... I think we can finish off whats in the fridge and start going through our freezer for sure. The othe factors are that both my wife and I WFH and my wife has phone calls to take during her day. The kids also have school the next day. So this could be pretty disruptive and perhaps not worth all the trouble... It's starting to feel like we would have to do all this logistical planning just for a day.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Wait, you have a freezer too? You know that when apocalypse comes first thing that goes out is the electricity right?
Possible very simple solutions:
1. Take call from smartphone. Buy a battery pack.
2. (not very smart) Charge the phone and the laptop in the car, but you would have to drive around otherwise car battery goes in 1h or less. Good for emergencies. I did it many times in different circumstances (calls from the road or from the park with my kid).
2. Get a generator. Not cheap and cheaper ones are loud & stinky. Cannot run at night if too noisy.
3. Rent a hotel/motel room, an Airbnb apartment/house, or some kind of work space. You get wifi, a table etc. I worked many days from hotels, it's pretty good.
4. Not sure what is the link between kids going to school and electricity. Hopefully you have a gas appliance for meals, but still not a big deal, there are plenty of alternatives (from take out, kitchenette in said hotel to a camping stove).
It's all pretty simple really.
Possible very simple solutions:
1. Take call from smartphone. Buy a battery pack.
2. (not very smart) Charge the phone and the laptop in the car, but you would have to drive around otherwise car battery goes in 1h or less. Good for emergencies. I did it many times in different circumstances (calls from the road or from the park with my kid).
2. Get a generator. Not cheap and cheaper ones are loud & stinky. Cannot run at night if too noisy.
3. Rent a hotel/motel room, an Airbnb apartment/house, or some kind of work space. You get wifi, a table etc. I worked many days from hotels, it's pretty good.
4. Not sure what is the link between kids going to school and electricity. Hopefully you have a gas appliance for meals, but still not a big deal, there are plenty of alternatives (from take out, kitchenette in said hotel to a camping stove).
It's all pretty simple really.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
We ran a power cord to the neighbors when we did this.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Even if people don't fall into it, animals might.Californiastate wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:16 pm Cover the trench with plywood and put up caution tape around it. Rent a portable generator.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
The refrigerator is not a problem. Just eat everything down and put any thing needed like milk in an ice chest.
Different food pantries have different policies on frozen food but if you call around you may be able to just give any food in the freezer that you can't use by the cutoff date to a food pantry and greatly simply your life.
One option that has not been mentioned for the freezer would be just to move it to a neighbors garage during the cutover.
You would need to unload it, move it, and reload it twice but if it is in your garage and easy to get to that might not be too bad in some situations.
Unless your neighbors house is very close then using an extension cord from their house might not work well since multiple extension cords can cause the electric power to drop and cause all sorts of problems including blowing a circuit breaker or a fire. Extension cords come in different gauges(thickness) and have difference resistance. Long heavy duty extension cords are expensive. Try it out before the cutover day.
If you are dealing with a electrician in the planning you might ask them about if the distance you need will work with an extension cord.
Different food pantries have different policies on frozen food but if you call around you may be able to just give any food in the freezer that you can't use by the cutoff date to a food pantry and greatly simply your life.
One option that has not been mentioned for the freezer would be just to move it to a neighbors garage during the cutover.
You would need to unload it, move it, and reload it twice but if it is in your garage and easy to get to that might not be too bad in some situations.
Unless your neighbors house is very close then using an extension cord from their house might not work well since multiple extension cords can cause the electric power to drop and cause all sorts of problems including blowing a circuit breaker or a fire. Extension cords come in different gauges(thickness) and have difference resistance. Long heavy duty extension cords are expensive. Try it out before the cutover day.
If you are dealing with a electrician in the planning you might ask them about if the distance you need will work with an extension cord.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
+1Watty wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:58 am The refrigerator is not a problem. Just eat everything down and put any thing needed like milk in an ice chest.
Different food pantries have different policies on frozen food but if you call around you may be able to just give any food in the freezer that you can't use by the cutoff date to a food pantry and greatly simply your life.
One option that has not been mentioned for the freezer would be just to move it to a neighbors garage during the cutover.
You would need to unload it, move it, and reload it twice but if it is in your garage and easy to get to that might not be too bad in some situations.
Unless your neighbors house is very close then using an extension cord from their house might not work well since multiple extension cords can cause the electric power to drop and cause all sorts of problems including blowing a circuit breaker or a fire. Extension cords come in different gauges(thickness) and have difference resistance. Long heavy duty extension cords are expensive. Try it out before the cutover day.
If you are dealing with a electrician in the planning you might ask them about if the distance you need will work with an extension cord.
Good points.
Well said.
A "quality" 10/2 w ground extension cord capable of carrying 15 amps with little drop over a distance of 50 feet runs around $ 100 (less for a cheap quality one).
The amperage loss at 100 feet and more is high if being used for anything with a motor because of the spikes in draw. IE: refrigerator/freezer compressor, worm drive saws, table saws, especially heaters heat dishes heat appliances with motors, stoves and hot plates. . etc.
Amp loss over distance is exponential. (per se, exspurts have better terminology and explanations).
****(most homeowners do not have this size electrical cord (expensive). . even if it looks "thick". . it's likely 12 ga.)
Most exterior and garage electrical outlets nowadays are on GFCI and similar breaker protected circuits.
Under the above conditions. . the distance from neighbor to neighbor. . . there might be multiple "trips" in the breaker, and other issues.
To OP:
If your neighbor is willing to run an extension cord to your frig. . . can they not lend you some "space" in their frig/freezer instead?
Other neighbors, family, friends as well?
Can you rent a 20 amp+ Honda (or equiv) generator and run it as needed to keep food cold/frozen?
j
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
We had a tree cut down a few months ago. We were expecting a 4 hour power outage. It turned out to be about 13 hours (on a clear weather day) and we did not require any inspections before restoring power. I don't know if it was staffing issues due to COVID or just normal, but you might want to have a contingency plan just in case the outage lasts longer than originally planned.
- quantAndHold
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I’m not sure why you continue to obsess on how one utility does things differently than another. I mean, short of moving to get rid of the problem, your utility is your utility, the rules are the rules, and you need to do what you need to do.
Unless the trench is on the public right of way, I would ignore it. If it is in the public right of way, I’d ask to contractor to deal with making it safe.
For the electrical outage, I’d push it off to October, eat all the food you can, and then put the rest in a cooler and talk a neighbor into storing it in their fridge. If you’re going to have an overnight outage, rent or buy a Honda 2200 watt generator and a couple f heavy duty extension cord. If you live in an area where your power might get cut off because of wildfire risk, you will want to own a generator anyway.
Unless the trench is on the public right of way, I would ignore it. If it is in the public right of way, I’d ask to contractor to deal with making it safe.
For the electrical outage, I’d push it off to October, eat all the food you can, and then put the rest in a cooler and talk a neighbor into storing it in their fridge. If you’re going to have an overnight outage, rent or buy a Honda 2200 watt generator and a couple f heavy duty extension cord. If you live in an area where your power might get cut off because of wildfire risk, you will want to own a generator anyway.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I"ve excavated and worked on thousands of lineal feet of utility trench. Animals aren't a problem. They don't sue. A sick wild animal might crawl into a dark place to die but that's about it. The Serengiti is another story but bipeds are the danger in US suburbia.tunafish wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:13 amEven if people don't fall into it, animals might.Californiastate wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:16 pm Cover the trench with plywood and put up caution tape around it. Rent a portable generator.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Are you serious? My friend who lived in a banana republik described that sort of electric reliability.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Freezers use a lot of power. Don't try stringing a 16 gauge extension cord from your neighbor's house to yours. 14 gauge minimum, 12 or 10 gauge better.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
It's a 24-hour planned power outage. It isn't the zombie apocalypse. You don't need to do anything. No dry ice. No generator. No extension power cord. Just don't open the refrigerator or freezer doors for 24 hours. That's it.
As for motel, why bother. You still have running water. You still have plumbing. You may even have hot water if you have a gas heater. There are 24-hour grocery stores. There may be 24-hour diners. You can even get wifi at a Starbucks. You can eat cereal and milk and fruit for breakfast. Make a couple of sandwiches for lunch. Get a hamburger for dinner. Surely you can survive for one night with a couple of flashlights.
This whole thing is a big nothing. Don't make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.
As for motel, why bother. You still have running water. You still have plumbing. You may even have hot water if you have a gas heater. There are 24-hour grocery stores. There may be 24-hour diners. You can even get wifi at a Starbucks. You can eat cereal and milk and fruit for breakfast. Make a couple of sandwiches for lunch. Get a hamburger for dinner. Surely you can survive for one night with a couple of flashlights.
This whole thing is a big nothing. Don't make it a bigger deal than it needs to be.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
What is your power reliability like? Would you want a generator in case you have outages in the future? If so, you have two paths -- put in a transfer switch now while the electrical is all apart and get a decent size generator, or buy a smaller generator and use extension cords.
Here is a small generator for $629 from Harbor Freight that should run two fridge/freezers and keep your internet and computer up:
https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-watt ... 59135.html
But a generator is an engine, so that entails always running it dry when done and occasional oil changes. You could go with the battery inverters (Jackery or similar), but you need to monitor your loads to have some sense of kw-hr use and make sure the battery is large enough to get you through a day. These will cost more than a generator, but make no noise and have no maintenance.
As others have said, you could run a 100' 10 or 12 gauge extension cord from a neighbor (or maybe two neighbors). Here is one from harbor freight for $83: https://www.harborfreight.com/100-ft-x- ... 62908.html
Things can happen, and your outage could go longer than planned. I'd want a contingency plan.
Here is a small generator for $629 from Harbor Freight that should run two fridge/freezers and keep your internet and computer up:
https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-watt ... 59135.html
But a generator is an engine, so that entails always running it dry when done and occasional oil changes. You could go with the battery inverters (Jackery or similar), but you need to monitor your loads to have some sense of kw-hr use and make sure the battery is large enough to get you through a day. These will cost more than a generator, but make no noise and have no maintenance.
As others have said, you could run a 100' 10 or 12 gauge extension cord from a neighbor (or maybe two neighbors). Here is one from harbor freight for $83: https://www.harborfreight.com/100-ft-x- ... 62908.html
Things can happen, and your outage could go longer than planned. I'd want a contingency plan.
Mark |
Somewhere in WA State
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
In Calif, this is very common. And it's not from equipment failures!
- quantAndHold
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Depends. I haven’t had an outage that lasted longer than an hour in the last decade, and before that, the last time I had a longer outage was…well, I can’t remember. Early 90’s, maybe? But people who live in wildfire prone areas need to be prepared for potential multi-day outages, if the utility decides to cut the power as a fire prevention measure. “Common” is a complete overstatement, but it can happen. We have no idea whether OP lives in a wildfire area or not.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I would use all of this as a good excuse to buy a generator. I got a firman 3200W dual fuel inverter from Costco, it ran my garage freezer, fridge, and networking equipment just fine on a 20lb propane tank for 12 hours straight overnight and there was a good amount left over. For a $500 generator and $50 of propane and tank plus $40 of 12 gauge extension cords it was a good investment in my mind for my panel upgrade.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Well, sounds like you might not have much personal experience with these shutdowns. A large % of the area of the state is subject to these shut-downs.quantAndHold wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:36 pmDepends. I haven’t had an outage that lasted longer than an hour in the last decade, and before that, the last time I had a longer outage was…well, I can’t remember. Early 90’s, maybe? But people who live in wildfire prone areas need to be prepared for potential multi-day outages, if the utility decides to cut the power as a fire prevention measure. “Common” is a complete overstatement, but it can happen. We have no idea whether OP lives in a wildfire area or not.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
You have time now, fill every remaining nook and cranny of the freezer with plastic bottles of water to freeze. The bigger the bottle the better. Just reuse milk jugs, pop and juice bottles, etc. that you can toss once this is over. About 24 hours before the shutoff, transfer some to the fridge and freeze a few more. The more stuffed to the brim the freezer is and the more frozen stuff you can put in the fridge ahead of time, the better.
Also, for the freezer, make a "test bottle", I have one of these for any time we go out of town. Fill a wide-mouthed bottle (like a Gatorade bottle) half full of water and freeze it. Then drop in a few coins, screws, washers, or something similar. Fill it to the top and put it back in, so the items are frozen at the half way point in the bottle. After the power outage is over, if the items did not drop in the bottle, your food should be safe.
Also, for the freezer, make a "test bottle", I have one of these for any time we go out of town. Fill a wide-mouthed bottle (like a Gatorade bottle) half full of water and freeze it. Then drop in a few coins, screws, washers, or something similar. Fill it to the top and put it back in, so the items are frozen at the half way point in the bottle. After the power outage is over, if the items did not drop in the bottle, your food should be safe.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
We ended up requesting to schedule for the earlier date. I think another month and half out is just too much. I may just take the day off and we go to Legoland after the kids get out of school (it's a early out day for them), sleep here at night (maybe have something to power a fan or two), then head to our friends' place to "work from friends' house" after dropping the kids off hahaha. Hopefully the power will be cutover and back on by the time we have to pick the kids up or before.
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Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
No, because I made a choice to live in one of the many parts of California where wildfires aren’t a problem. There are pluses and minuses to anyplace, and living in wildfire country has its own set of issues that I didn’t want to deal with.RetiredAL wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:28 pmWell, sounds like you might not have much personal experience with these shutdowns. A large % of the area of the state is subject to these shut-downs.quantAndHold wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:36 pmDepends. I haven’t had an outage that lasted longer than an hour in the last decade, and before that, the last time I had a longer outage was…well, I can’t remember. Early 90’s, maybe? But people who live in wildfire prone areas need to be prepared for potential multi-day outages, if the utility decides to cut the power as a fire prevention measure. “Common” is a complete overstatement, but it can happen. We have no idea whether OP lives in a wildfire area or not.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
Have you had one recently? I thought we lived in the same area. In the last seven years I only had one blackout longer than a hour.
Re: Dealing with a power disconnect/reconnect possibly spanning 24+ hours
I leave in the heart of Silly-Clone valley.
The family Mountain Home of 50 years is along Hwy4 above Big Trees State Park at 5000' elevation. Last winter one outage event was 4 days. Places lower had outages of 2x that long. It was a mess. We had 4+ feet of snow, the last part was very wet which toppled many trees around Arnold, where the Hwy was closed for 2+ days. We generally only see that kind of outage event once every 10 or 12 years. There were several "safety" power curtailments last year.
The only recent fire threat was from a Calfire controlled burn in the park that got away from them, but it got stopped at the Hwy about 2 miles away. We are in a mature Pine and Sequoia forest environment above most of the Brush and Oak.