Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

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Fat-Tailed Contagion
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Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Fat-Tailed Contagion »

What is the equivalent of the Boglehead car for an electic vehicle?
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Oh Boy! Here we go....
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DH0
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by DH0 »

Anything that you can purchase for MSRP, get the federal tax credit on, and sell for more than what you paid in 1–2 years after 10–30k miles of driving. Make money on the car and drive a new vehicle for free.
A few examples:
Rav4 Prime
F150 Lightning
Rivian R1T
Mach-E
Maybe model X? No tax credit but I think they're going for enough of a premium that you can still pretty much break even.
Last edited by DH0 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
7eight9
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

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Last edited by 7eight9 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by hicabob »

I drove an ElecctroMeccanica Solo for 30 miles on a test drive. It was a blast! For 50% of the price I might buy one. Just need a good fed and state credit.
02nz
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by 02nz »

I may be biased as I'm an owner, but I think the Kia Niro EV is the most Bogleheads-ish EV. It's very efficient (even as EVs go), not flashy, reliable, has everything you need and nothing you don't. However like most other EVs it's next to impossible to find right now.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Californiastate »

There isn't a specific EV supported by Jack Bogle.
quietseas
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by quietseas »

Bogleheads are waiting for the EV Toyota Corolla, Mazda Miata, or Honda Fit.

For the Bogleheads who say they are frugal but actually fly in business class and have a $5,000 watch I'd recommend a Mercedes EQS.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by mervinj7 »

quietseas wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 pm Bogleheads are waiting for the EV Toyota Corolla, Mazda Miata, or Honda Fit.
Nissan Leaf?
linuxizer
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by linuxizer »

2015 or late-model 2014 Nissan Leaf. They fixed the battery chemistry in mid-2014.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by beardsicles »

quietseas wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:12 pm Bogleheads are waiting for the EV Toyota Corolla, Mazda Miata, or Honda Fit.

For the Bogleheads who say they are frugal but actually fly in business class and have a $5,000 watch I'd recommend a Mercedes EQS.
That’s the Chevy Bolt. Great car. 29k.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by JayhawkGolfer »

I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
DH0
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by DH0 »

JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
Did you get the discount by deferring a 2022 reservation? I have a 2022 coming soon...
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by FrugalProfessor »

JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
So net cost = 53 - 9 - 7.5 = 36.5? Not bad. How did you pull this off? Through an online quote or through a dealer?

I haven't looked into this credit for a while, but is there an arbitrage here? For those able to take advantage of the $7.5k credit, can one simply buy a new car every other year, claim the credit, then sell used?

I vaguely remember reading the above in another thread on this forum. People rinsing and repeating the above every few years.
Last edited by FrugalProfessor on Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JayhawkGolfer
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by JayhawkGolfer »

DH0 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:15 pm
JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
Did you get the discount by deferring a 2022 reservation? I have a 2022 coming soon...
I did defer in 2022. I would have been wave 2 last year. $7000 private offer on the 2023 Pro plus I am looking at around 4% off for A-Plan.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by JayhawkGolfer »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:18 pm
JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
So net cost = 53 - 9 - 7.5 = 36.5? Not bad. How did you pull this off? Through an online quote or through a dealer?

I haven't looked into this credit for a while, but is there an arbitrage here? For those able to take advantage of the $7.5k credit, can one simply buy a new car every other year, claim the credit, then sell used?

I vaguely remember reading the above in another thread on this forum. People rinsing and repeating the above every few years.
Me and my girlfriend are doing this a bit on accident. We bought a 2020 Leaf in 2021 and took the tax credit. It got in an accident in January and was in the shop for 3 months. I bought a hybrid Maverick for her to use while her car was being fixed. She traded her Leaf in on a 2022 model in April and after the tax credit will come up $2K to the positive and 15K less miles. I will sell the Maverick at the end of August and should be up at least $5K on it. Carvana was bidding 8K over sticker 2 months ago. If the Lightning delivers in 2023 we will have 3 straight years of the tax credit.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by beardsicles »

FrugalProfessor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:18 pm
JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
So net cost = 53 - 9 - 7.5 = 36.5? Not bad. How did you pull this off? Through an online quote or through a dealer?

I haven't looked into this credit for a while, but is there an arbitrage here? For those able to take advantage of the $7.5k credit, can one simply buy a new car every other year, claim the credit, then sell used?

I vaguely remember reading the above in another thread on this forum. People rinsing and repeating the above every few years.
You won’t be able to claim the credit annually under the new bill. Every three years iirc.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Hyperchicken »

Any EV you like, but with "VTSAX" custom license plate.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by JayhawkGolfer »

Hyperchicken wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:50 pm Any EV you like, but with "VTSAX" custom license plate.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Valuethinker »

Fat-Tailed Contagion wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:40 pm What is the equivalent of the Boglehead car for an electic vehicle?
There is not such a thing BUT

VW id3 or id4 (spelling)
Hyundai Ioniq 5
Kia as above

I have omitted Tesla because of issues with build quality, random CEO etc. In many ways it is (quite reasonably) still the dominant player - range, reliable fast charger network etc.

SUVs dominate the US automotive market, and I don't know what EV SUVs are available. However a plug-in hybrid would certainly fit into that niche.
What is the equivalent of the Bogleheadish car for an electic vehicle?
I added that suffix. Basically you want something which is frugal. But don't wear a hair shirt on this. Longer range is worth something.

Technology is advancing rapidly and so I would consider leasing -- it's quite likely in 3-4 years time you will have much better & a much wider range of alternatives to choose from.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by GTBuzz »

beardsicles wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:35 pm
FrugalProfessor wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:18 pm
JayhawkGolfer wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:11 pm I ordered an F-150 Lightning Pro this afternoon. 53K sticker, but I should be looking at around $9K discount and a $7500 tax credit. I got pretty lucky on timing.
So net cost = 53 - 9 - 7.5 = 36.5? Not bad. How did you pull this off? Through an online quote or through a dealer?

I haven't looked into this credit for a while, but is there an arbitrage here? For those able to take advantage of the $7.5k credit, can one simply buy a new car every other year, claim the credit, then sell used?

I vaguely remember reading the above in another thread on this forum. People rinsing and repeating the above every few years.
You won’t be able to claim the credit annually under the new bill. Every three years iirc.
I think this is technically prohibited from being talked about until the legislation is signed into law in the next couple of days, but I believe the once-every-three-years provision would only apply to the new credit for used EVs.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by jebmke »

Whatever you like that you can afford.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by techrules »

DH0 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:57 pm Anything that you can purchase for MSRP, get the federal tax credit on, and sell for more than what you paid in 1–2 years after 10–30k miles of driving. Make money on the car and drive a new vehicle for free.
A few examples:
Rav4 Prime
F150 Lightning
Rivian R1T
Mach-E
Maybe model X? No tax credit but I think they're going for enough of a premium that you can still pretty much break even.
This might be a humble brag, but I did get a "Boglehead car"
My model 3 that I bought in 2018 for 50K + Tax
Minus Federal Rebate and State Rebate (~10K) which brought the cost to own at about 44K, without counting electricity use and maintenance.
2022, upgraded to Model Y that I bought for 56K and traded in my Model 3 for 49K.
And because it was a trade in, I paid tax only on the difference between new vehicle purchase price and old vehicle trade in price = 1K.
I 'earned' 7K from my trade in and I used that to pay for my upgrade to Y.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by homebuyer6426 »

Depending on how efficient you want to go, you may consider getting an electric bicycle for the shorter trips.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Pay attention to dealer lies.

Near me, Imperial Ford was listing Mach e as MSRP $75k. When you click the "window sticker" button, the sticker comes up with a $55k actual total MSRP including destination charge. Is this Boglehead? Nope.

Other vehicles listed here may have similar overpricing. Near me, any EV6 is MSRP plus $5k. Ionic 5, MSRP plus $10k. On the "bargain" side, an Audi e tron GT, which has by far been the best EV I've test driven. MSRP plus $2.5k and plus $2.9k pps paint protection (clear bra). Still not bad as the car MSRP is $104k. If the new federal credits come back to Tesla, a car under $50k is the Model 3 single motor and to the credit of Tesla, they don't play games. Go online and they tell you all charges.

Look for your own state's credits. In mine (Mass), any EV with a sale price under $50k (new) gets $2500 back. The new federal credit will have an income limit, but if you make more than $300k MFJ, you shouldn't get a discount anyway, in my opinion.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by DH0 »

techrules wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:07 am
DH0 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:57 pm Anything that you can purchase for MSRP, get the federal tax credit on, and sell for more than what you paid in 1–2 years after 10–30k miles of driving. Make money on the car and drive a new vehicle for free.
A few examples:
Rav4 Prime
F150 Lightning
Rivian R1T
Mach-E
Maybe model X? No tax credit but I think they're going for enough of a premium that you can still pretty much break even.
This might be a humble brag, but I did get a "Boglehead car"
My model 3 that I bought in 2018 for 50K + Tax
Minus Federal Rebate and State Rebate (~10K) which brought the cost to own at about 44K, without counting electricity use and maintenance.
2022, upgraded to Model Y that I bought for 56K and traded in my Model 3 for 49K.
And because it was a trade in, I paid tax only on the difference between new vehicle purchase price and old vehicle trade in price = 1K.
I 'earned' 7K from my trade in and I used that to pay for my upgrade to Y.
Very Boglehead of you IMO! With all the price increases the past two years, Teslas have appreciated in value even without access to the tax credit. The situation is a little different at the moment since the MSRP has increased so much and other makes have access to the federal credit. It will likely change again in 2023 once the inflation production act takes effect (oops...probably not supposed to say that.)
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by snackdog »

Boglehead definitely means frugal. Frugal for a car is well under $30,000.

Nissan Leaf, preferably used, as others have mentioned. 2014-2016. Around $17K although that is high relative to a couple years ago. Bogleheads will wait as long as it takes for prices to come back to earth.
Last edited by snackdog on Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by stoptothink »

techrules wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:07 am
DH0 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:57 pm Anything that you can purchase for MSRP, get the federal tax credit on, and sell for more than what you paid in 1–2 years after 10–30k miles of driving. Make money on the car and drive a new vehicle for free.
A few examples:
Rav4 Prime
F150 Lightning
Rivian R1T
Mach-E
Maybe model X? No tax credit but I think they're going for enough of a premium that you can still pretty much break even.
This might be a humble brag, but I did get a "Boglehead car"
My model 3 that I bought in 2018 for 50K + Tax
Minus Federal Rebate and State Rebate (~10K) which brought the cost to own at about 44K, without counting electricity use and maintenance.
2022, upgraded to Model Y that I bought for 56K and traded in my Model 3 for 49K.
And because it was a trade in, I paid tax only on the difference between new vehicle purchase price and old vehicle trade in price = 1K.
I 'earned' 7K from my trade in and I used that to pay for my upgrade to Y.
I have a friend/training partner that bought a model 3 in the first year of production. He was a NJ resident at the time, was able to buy one of the base models <$40k, plus federal and state tax credits, didn't have to pay tax on the sale (NJ incentive), and his employer had a cash incentive for EVs (and free on-site charging). He says he ended paying ~$26k total. Pretty sure he could sell it for more today.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by delamer »

snackdog wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:02 am Boglehead definitely means frugal. Frugal for a car is well under $30,000.
Who says?

Buy a vehicle that meets your needs & wants, and your budget.

For some Bogleheads that means a $25,000 vehicle, for others it means a $125,000 vehicle.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by delamer »

Hyperchicken wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:50 pm Any EV you like, but with "VTSAX" custom license plate.
Excellent!

We have one on order, due to arrive in October, and I may just do that!
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by H-Town »

delamer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:32 am
Hyperchicken wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:50 pm Any EV you like, but with "VTSAX" custom license plate.
Excellent!

We have one on order, due to arrive in October, and I may just do that!
I would be surprised to see a boglehead driving an EV with a vanity plate. It gives the Wall Street dudes vibe :mrgreen:
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Hyperchicken »

H-Town wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:48 am I would be surprised to see a boglehead driving an EV with a vanity plate. It gives the Wall Street dudes vibe :mrgreen:
And here we go. ;)

viewtopic.php?p=4560721#p4560721
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by windaar »

I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by happyisland »

windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The metric system? So EVs will become the standard in all but a small handful of countries on earth?
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by vfinx »

2016 Chevy Spark EV, but not for another 4 years because it can’t be a BH car until it’s 10 years old. At 82 miles of range it enforces frugal travel habits and lifestyle. It is technically too fast to be an official BH vehicle, but it was given an official exemption by the committee.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by 02nz »

windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The Kindle is definitely in pretty widespread use. As is the metric system, which is not a "technology."
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by windaar »

02nz wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:42 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The Kindle is definitely in pretty widespread use. As is the metric system, which is not a "technology."
E-books currently make up 14% of new book sales in the U.S. Less in Europe. So a niche.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Old Guy »

I bought a 2021 Ford Mach-E that was originally ordered by someone else in June 2021 and delivered at the end of March, 2022. It is an extended range, rear wheel, premium model, very very red. It’s quick. I paid list price minus $1,000 for using a particular type of Ford financing, minus $9,000 trade in for my 2011 Ford Explorer with 96,000 miles, minus $7,500 off my taxes. So, it came to somewhere in the mid $30,000s. I paid it off before I had to make the first credit payment. It’s a nice car.

I had a 14-50 NEMA 220 or 240 volt outlet installed in the garage for home charging. I only drive locally and at relatively low speeds. The “Guess-O-Meter” in the car alleges that at 90% charged it could get 302 miles. I’ve had no problems with it, but charging the car while all the pool equipment and the dryer and the air conditioning are also running can be problematic. So I only charge in the evening when the pool stuff turns off.

I would never buy a Tesla because of Elon Musk who I think is a brilliant idiot who can’t keep his mouth shut and is untrustworthy.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by WhyNotUs »

Depends on your driving habits. If less than 100 miles a day, like most people, then it is hard to beat a Leaf or Bolt. If you are not in a hurry, the Bolt should get the $7500 credit after 1/1/23. New legislation will allow it to be at time of transaction rather than a tax credit. GM cars will get full discount after first of year. That is an improvement.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by zeep »

+1 on Chevy Bolt
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by BBBob »

As previously stated, it depends what you are looking for. FWIW, we've had nothing but EVs since the late 90's and loved them all. For emotional comfort, I'd try to get a model that is sold reasonably near your home/office in case of a sudden need to bring the car in for service....highly unlikely in my experience but nevertheless.

Second, you can check the following website for a list and info of currently available EVs to give you a general idea re pricing as well:
https://plugstar.com/

They are all pretty torque-y, some are a bit faster than others and/or more comfortable. Some have too many bells and whistles for my taste. And of course, the range should fit your predicted use, (remembering that you get to "fill up" every night if you need to using your home charger).

Have fun test driving them.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by YeahBuddy »

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think there is a Boglehead EV (yet). To me, Boglehead vehicles have always been the cheap, practical cars that just get you from point A to point B without much thought. Most EVs are not cheap. Supercharging isn't cheap. Also I'm skeptical that the phenomenon of selling your used EV for the same / more than what you bought it for new will last beyond the next year or two. Once supply meets or exceeds demand, these cars should start to depreciate (just a guess). Another aspect is the amount of time it takes to charge. EVs on road trips spend hours upon hours charging and just aren't practical. As another poster pointed out, they have to wait until a specific time of day to charge. I have solar and to get good charging times, I need to perform a $1,000 electrical upgrade and that's if my current service can even handle it.
I'd go with a used hybrid like a Prius before an EV at this point in time.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by oxothuk »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:37 pm To me, Boglehead vehicles have always been the cheap, practical cars that just get you from point A to point B without much thought. Most EVs are not cheap. Supercharging isn't cheap.
Leaf and Bolt (with tax credits) are cheap and reliable. Supercharging is similar price per mile as gas for an ICE. Home charging is cheap unless you live in CA and want to charge during peak hours.

Other EVs are not cheap, there I agree with you.
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by BBBob »

oxothuk wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:12 pm
Home charging is cheap unless you live in CA and want to charge during peak hours.
I live in CA and ran the numbers on electric costs. We went with 100% renewable from our local alternative Power Authority, Clean Power Alliance (cleanpoweralliance.org) years ago, so we are paying a bit more per KWH than we would for the normal CA mix from Edison. I calculated we are paying the equivalent of $2.15/gal. gas when we home charge (which is what we normally do).
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by $=WxTxI »

happyisland wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:31 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The metric system? So EVs will become the standard in all but a small handful of countries on earth?
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by YeahBuddy »

oxothuk wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:12 pm
RobLyons wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:37 pm To me, Boglehead vehicles have always been the cheap, practical cars that just get you from point A to point B without much thought. Most EVs are not cheap. Supercharging isn't cheap.
Leaf and Bolt (with tax credits) are cheap and reliable. Supercharging is similar price per mile as gas for an ICE. Home charging is cheap unless you live in CA and want to charge during peak hours.

Other EVs are not cheap, there I agree with you.

Cheap and practical are my two main points.

So I’d contest neither EV is that practical. I can’t find many new Leaf’s near me. They of course have long charge times. Home charging is either painfully slow for level one (4 miles per hour) or one must hire an electrician for a costly upgrade. The cost of the upgrade alone is more than I’d pay for a full year of gas (10k miles/year, 60mpg, $3.89 gallon). The Leaf also has a range of less than half the range of a Prius so that’s not too practical.

Price wise, if one is able to use the full tax credit, sub $30k for the Leaf isn’t bad. For the bolt I see it’s a subcompact and costs $36k so that’s not cheap compared to sub $20k ICE subcompacts
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oragne lovre
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by oragne lovre »

JayhawkGolfer wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:20 am
Hyperchicken wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:50 pm Any EV you like, but with "VTSAX" custom license plate.
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The finest, albeit the most difficult, of all human achievements is being reasonable.
Valuethinker
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Valuethinker »

happyisland wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:31 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The metric system? So EVs will become the standard in all but a small handful of countries on earth?
SST was cancelled. Concorde was not a commercial success but was a successful airliner technically.

Arguably, from a US-only perspective, nuclear power would be the promise of the future that was never quite realised - due to cost issues. Half of the new generation of reactors were cancelled (5 units under construction and only 3 have kept going: the TVA one, which was a 30 year old project restarted, and the 2 Vogtle units by Southern Company; the 2 South Carolina units by Duke Power were cancelled).

EV sales are 26% of new car sales in China, I read.

In the UK they were 20% last year. But gasoline prices have gone up (you may have noticed). And there's a proxy war going on with the world's 2nd largest oil & gas exporter (again, some may have noticed) which is leading to constriction of supply to Europe.

So I'd reckon Europe will move off petrol (gasoline) quite fast, as a geopolitical necessity. Despite the intense lobbying of German car manufacturers and German trade unions.

There's hydrogen fuel cells. But the manufacture of hydrogen as an intermediate stage is inherently inefficient. Unless you have massive surpluses electricity generated by, say, renewables, then it will never be as efficient as batteries. I think hydrogen FCV may have greater application in heavy vehicles and machinery: long distance trucking, construction machinery, farm machinery etc.

Metric... I was at a strategy games convention in Baltimore where I first encountered that blind hostility to metric - I asked how many meters range, and got told "in my games, we use yards, feet, inches". The irony is that, as I understand it, the US military uses mm calibres for ammunition (to be compatible with the rest of the world) and may measure distances in metric as well (? not sure). It's not dead here (UK) but I think anyone under 40 doesn't see what the issue is (they tend to know their height in feet & inches, their weight in stone (14lbs = 1 stone) but temperature in Celsius-- go figure).

Just as a tease. You know Americans don't use the Imperial measures that Brits (& Canadians) use(d)? It's actually a different system - as someone here taught me.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Valuethinker »

RobLyons wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:28 am
oxothuk wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:12 pm
RobLyons wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:37 pm To me, Boglehead vehicles have always been the cheap, practical cars that just get you from point A to point B without much thought. Most EVs are not cheap. Supercharging isn't cheap.
Leaf and Bolt (with tax credits) are cheap and reliable. Supercharging is similar price per mile as gas for an ICE. Home charging is cheap unless you live in CA and want to charge during peak hours.

Other EVs are not cheap, there I agree with you.

Cheap and practical are my two main points.

So I’d contest neither EV is that practical. I can’t find many new Leaf’s near me. They of course have long charge times. Home charging is either painfully slow for level one (4 miles per hour) or one must hire an electrician for a costly upgrade. The cost of the upgrade alone is more than I’d pay for a full year of gas (10k miles/year, 60mpg, $3.89 gallon). The Leaf also has a range of less than half the range of a Prius so that’s not too practical.
Interesting that it's a "costly upgrade"? Here (UK) it's around £1000 I believe. A fraction of the cost of a house. Really a small change in spec in a new kitchen counter will cost you more - ask me how I know :oops: :oops: :?
Price wise, if one is able to use the full tax credit, sub $30k for the Leaf isn’t bad. For the bolt I see it’s a subcompact and costs $36k so that’s not cheap compared to sub $20k ICE subcompacts
On strictly economic grounds it depends on your projection of future gas prices. TCO here is pretty much the same or advantage to EVs over ICEs. However our cost of gasoline is c 2x yours (our electricity is going to be c 4x yours).
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Re: Boglehead EV (Electric Vehicle) ?

Post by Valuethinker »

happyisland wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:31 pm
windaar wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:20 pm I'm putting the EV in the file with the SST Concorde, Segway, Metric System, Kindle, and other technologies that I was assured would take over the world.
The metric system? So EVs will become the standard in all but a small handful of countries on earth?
There's a whole issue regarding network benefits.

Efficiencies are maximised if we all use metric.

(I would imagine US pharmacies eg in hospitals use metric? It's so universal for measurements of small to ultra small amounts of things).

Whereas with EVs, it's not vital to the system that if 25% of drivers have EVs, the other 75% have EVs. The main network benefit is more chargers available - and of course congestion at highway chargers in particular could become a real problem.

I think we will move to a world where an "app" on our phone allows us to plug in our EVs where one is free - including other peoples' homes. There will be end to end payment so that private "host" will get a rental fee (which also reflects their cost of electricity when you are charging).

Big Box stores will compete with each other to offer free charging - get the customer on the parking lot when they need an hour's charging (at Level 2) or a fast charge (DC chargers). They then have nothing to do but go into the WalMart etc and shop.
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