Help to consolidate in Taxable account

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Topic Author
LmG7119
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Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

I need help consolidating ETFs into a smaller number of them if possible. I know I went a little bit crazy. Maybe even convert them into Mutual Funds.
Because it is a taxable account I'm wondering what I should do. Here are the ETFs with their cost basis summary.

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JoinToday
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by JoinToday »

Really hard to make good recommendations without seeing the big picture of all your assets. There is a standard format for presenting your portfolio.

Having said that, it appears like most are a loss. Why not just sell everything except VTI (total US stock market) & put the proceeds in VTI (or VTI + VXUS (total International Stock ETF)?

I am not seeing bonds, and assume they are somewhere else.
I wish I had learned about index funds 25 years ago
Chip
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by Chip »

JoinToday wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:19 am Having said that, it appears like most are a loss. Why not just sell everything except VTI (total US stock market) & put the proceeds in VTI (or VTI + VXUS (total International Stock ETF)?
Agreed. Depending on the tax situation OP might consider only selling enough VUG to break even on the gain/loss after selling the other positions. Eyeballing it that would be about half of the VUG.
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

JoinToday wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:19 am Really hard to make good recommendations without seeing the big picture of all your assets. There is a standard format for presenting your portfolio.

Having said that, it appears like most are a loss. Why not just sell everything except VTI (total US stock market) & put the proceeds in VTI (or VTI + VXUS (total International Stock ETF)?

I am not seeing bonds, and assume they are somewhere else.
I don't really need a full evaluation, I just need help with reducing the number of ETFs and/or conversion into MFs in a taxable account. I'm just trying to minimize tax consequences if there are any. I'm not sure about loss harvesting. I have read somewhere about selling and buying similar funds would not be a candidate for loss harvesting. I could be wrong. The other question. Should I convert those into MF or should I stay with EFTs?
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Chip Munk
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by Chip Munk »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:26 am Should I convert those into MF or should I stay with EFTs?
Vanguard will convert mutual fund shares to their ETF equivalent but not the other way around. To "convert" your ETF shares to the equivalent mutual fund you would have to sell those shares and then use the proceeds to purchase the mutual fund and that would be a taxable event if you sold at a gain and probably a wash sale if you sold an ETF at a loss and put the proceeds in the equivalent mutual fund.

Is there a reason why you would prefer to hold mutual funds instead of ETFs?
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

Chip Munk wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:49 am
lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:26 am Should I convert those into MF or should I stay with EFTs?
Vanguard will convert mutual fund shares to their ETF equivalent but not the other way around. To "convert" your ETF shares to the equivalent mutual fund you would have to sell those shares and then use the proceeds to purchase the mutual fund and that would be a taxable event if you sold at a gain and probably a wash sale if you sold an ETF at a loss and put the proceeds in the equivalent mutual fund.

Is there a reason why you would prefer to hold mutual funds instead of ETFs?
I don't. This is why I asked.
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

Chip wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:22 am
JoinToday wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:19 am Having said that, it appears like most are a loss. Why not just sell everything except VTI (total US stock market) & put the proceeds in VTI (or VTI + VXUS (total International Stock ETF)?
Agreed. Depending on the tax situation OP might consider only selling enough VUG to break even on the gain/loss after selling the other positions. Eyeballing it that would be about half of the VUG.
After taking out VTI amounts, take sum of all loses
$3,628.10
$1,468.56
$854.00
$1,417.80
=========
$7,368.46 - $1,557.00(VTG gains) = $5,811.46 <--- how much can I sell of VUG? What is the formula?

I'm small cap value tilted. I may keep VBR.
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

Another question.
Do I better set ETFs Dividends and Capital gains to Reinvest or Transfer to the settlement fund?
Mike Scott
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by Mike Scott »

Since VUG looks like a one time purchase at the same price you can sell about half of the VUG to balance near 0 capital gains. You can also decide whether you want to pay capital gains taxes on the other half or leave it and perhaps cancel out those capital gains with another potential future tax loss harvest. If you don't reinvest dividends, you can redirect them to whichever fund you want to build up. In this case, dividends not reinvested in the VUG could go to purchase more VTI.

Do you hold any of these same funds in other accounts?
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by Taylor Larimore »

lepa71:

Consider the Three-Fund Portfolio as a target for your consolidation.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "There may be better investment strategies than owning just three broad-based index funds but the number of strategies that are worse is infinite."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
jebmke
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by jebmke »

JoinToday wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:19 am Really hard to make good recommendations without seeing the big picture of all your assets. There is a standard format for presenting your portfolio.

Having said that, it appears like most are a loss. Why not just sell everything except VTI (total US stock market) & put the proceeds in VTI (or VTI + VXUS (total International Stock ETF)?

I am not seeing bonds, and assume they are somewhere else.
for these amounts, that is what I'd do. Rip the Band-Aid off with one jerk and get on with it.
Stay hydrated; don't sweat the small stuff
lakpr
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

From the screenshot, I see that the cost basis is set as FIFO. Before making any sale, I suggest that you turn the Specific ID basis on, and then refresh to see what the table says regarding gains and losses. You would want to avoid an inadvertent wash sale ..
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:06 pm lepa71:

Consider the Three-Fund Portfolio as a target for your consolidation.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "There may be better investment strategies than owning just three broad-based index funds but the number of strategies that are worse is infinite."
I don't think I want bonds in my taxable account but I'm trying to follow 3-4 funds/ETF low index portfolio with a small-cap value tilt.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:30 pm From the screenshot, I see that the cost basis is set as FIFO. Before making any sale, I suggest that you turn the Specific ID basis on, and then refresh to see what the table says regarding gains and losses. You would want to avoid an inadvertent wash sale ..
Where do I do that?

also, Do I better set ETFs Dividends and Capital gains to Reinvest or Transfer to the settlement fund?
lakpr
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:39 pm
lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:30 pm From the screenshot, I see that the cost basis is set as FIFO. Before making any sale, I suggest that you turn the Specific ID basis on, and then refresh to see what the table says regarding gains and losses. You would want to avoid an inadvertent wash sale ..
Where do I do that?

also, Do I better set ETFs Dividends and Capital gains to Reinvest or Transfer to the settlement fund?
I can't help you with "where do I do that?", since I am on a Mutual-Fund only platform with Vanguard, so unable to give you directions. To answer your second question: yes, you should NOT auto-reinvest dividends and capital gains distributions, you should direct them to the settlement fund.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:30 pm From the screenshot, I see that the cost basis is set as FIFO. Before making any sale, I suggest that you turn the Specific ID basis on, and then refresh to see what the table says regarding gains and losses. You would want to avoid an inadvertent wash sale ..
Is this what you were looking for?

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lakpr
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

Yes this is what I was looking for. Now regarding your particular question in the original post, I have follow up question of my own. You said you want to invest in Total Stock Market Index, with a Small Cap Value Tilt.

Does that mean you want to end up with only VTI (total stock market ETF) and VBR (small cap value ETF) as the end result?

All purchases of VBR, according to the screenshot, are showing losses. Too juicy to not realize that loss to offset the gains on VUG. But if you do that, can you wait at least 30 days after the date of sale, before you are tempted to buy VBR again in this taxable account?
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:23 pm Yes this is what I was looking for. Now regarding your particular question in the original post, I have follow up question of my own. You said you want to invest in Total Stock Market Index, with a Small Cap Value Tilt.

Does that mean you want to end up with only VTI (total stock market ETF) and VBR (small cap value ETF) as the end result?
I think that is the goal. VTI or VOO. Don't have a preference. If there are some leftovers in VUG then I will just keep it but will not add more.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:23 pm Yes this is what I was looking for. Now regarding your particular question in the original post, I have follow up question of my own. You said you want to invest in Total Stock Market Index, with a Small Cap Value Tilt.

Does that mean you want to end up with only VTI (total stock market ETF) and VBR (small cap value ETF) as the end result?

All purchases of VBR, according to the screenshot, are showing losses. Too juicy to not realize that loss to offset the gains on VUG. But if you do that, can you wait at least 30 days after the date of sale, before you are tempted to buy VBR again in this taxable account?
What is so important about 30 days?
lakpr
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:27 pm
lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:23 pm Yes this is what I was looking for. Now regarding your particular question in the original post, I have follow up question of my own. You said you want to invest in Total Stock Market Index, with a Small Cap Value Tilt.

Does that mean you want to end up with only VTI (total stock market ETF) and VBR (small cap value ETF) as the end result?
I think that is the goal. VTI or VOO. Don't have a preference. If there are some leftovers in VUG then I will just keep it but will not add more.
If that's the case, and assuming you are willing to wait at least 31 days before making any sales or purchases again in this account (and especially do not buy either VBR or VOO within these 31 days), I would sell all lots that are showing losses that aren't also VTI. I calculated those losses to total $-6274.88.

Sell about $6300 worth of VUG to account that would offset these losses with gains. You will still be left with VBK, VTI of course, VGT and VUG.

I have elected to keep the VTI and sell VOO, since the total losses are greater in VOO than in VTI.
tashnewbie
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by tashnewbie »

I would sell all of the lots that have losses, assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.

I would direct the proceeds into something like ITOT or SCHB.

I would probably sell an equivalent amount of VUG and/or VGT (no net gain, so no tax) to unwind those positions.

I would direct dividends and capital gains into your settlement account so you have more control over how you use them.
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

tashnewbie wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:52 pm I would sell all of the lots that have losses, assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.

I would direct the proceeds into something like ITOT or SCHB.

I would probably sell an equivalent amount of VUG and/or VGT (no net gain, so no tax) to unwind those positions.

I would direct dividends and capital gains into your settlement account so you have more control over how you use them.
Just trying to understand. When you say "assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.", you mean another taxable account. For example. I have Roth IRA($32K) that I max out yearly. It has VBR, VGT and VOOG. I'm planning to clean up those as well but it would not generate a taxable event. Now I kind of see the point to work on them together. I also have 401K accounts where I have bonds allocation in addition to SP500 and some international MFs. My primary goal was to clean up the taxable account without triggering too much taxes.

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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:40 pm
lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:27 pm
lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:23 pm Yes this is what I was looking for. Now regarding your particular question in the original post, I have follow up question of my own. You said you want to invest in Total Stock Market Index, with a Small Cap Value Tilt.

Does that mean you want to end up with only VTI (total stock market ETF) and VBR (small cap value ETF) as the end result?
I think that is the goal. VTI or VOO. Don't have a preference. If there are some leftovers in VUG then I will just keep it but will not add more.
If that's the case, and assuming you are willing to wait at least 31 days before making any sales or purchases again in this account (and especially do not buy either VBR or VOO within these 31 days), I would sell all lots that are showing losses that aren't also VTI. I calculated those losses to total $-6274.88.

Sell about $6300 worth of VUG to account that would offset these losses with gains. You will still be left with VBK, VTI of course, VGT and VUG.

I have elected to keep the VTI and sell VOO, since the total losses are greater in VOO than in VTI.
So just I understand.
1. sell VBR with losses only, keep one VBR with gains
2. sell VFH
3. sell all VOO
4. keep all VGT
5. sell VUG worth $6300 or close enough.

questions
1. Why do I want to keep VGT? There could be a reason. Tech has made me ok money. I had them as MF before.
2. still not sure Why not buy VBR for 31 days?
lakpr
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:22 pm So just I understand.
1. sell VBR with losses only, keep one VBR with gains
2. sell VFH
3. sell all VOO
4. keep all VGT
5. sell VUG worth $6300 or close enough.

questions
1. Why do I want to keep VGT? There could be a reason. Tech has made me ok money. I had them as MF before.
2. still not sure Why not buy VBR for 31 days?
1. I assumed that you do not want to pay taxes at this time unnecessarily. So I asked you to sell only to just enough offset the losses. VGT has gains in it. Long term gains. If you are ok paying 15% rate on the gains, that is ok.

2. You are selling the VBR lots with losses, and realizing those losses. If you buy the same ETF again within 30 days, you will NOT be able to claim these losses on your tax return that you will file at the end of the year, since it would be flagged as a wash sale. That's why I asked you to wait for 31 days (it's only actually 30 days for the wash sale period, but I padded it by one more day) from the date of the sale.
tashnewbie
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by tashnewbie »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:05 pm
tashnewbie wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:52 pm I would sell all of the lots that have losses, assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.

I would direct the proceeds into something like ITOT or SCHB.

I would probably sell an equivalent amount of VUG and/or VGT (no net gain, so no tax) to unwind those positions.

I would direct dividends and capital gains into your settlement account so you have more control over how you use them.
Just trying to understand. When you say "assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.", you mean another taxable account. For example. I have Roth IRA($32K) that I max out yearly. It has VBR, VGT and VOOG. I'm planning to clean up those as well but it would not generate a taxable event. Now I kind of see the point to work on them together. I also have 401K accounts where I have bonds allocation in addition to SP500 and some international MFs. My primary goal was to clean up the taxable account without triggering too much taxes.

Image
You should study up on tax loss harvesting (TLH) and wash sales, if you're not familiar. If you're selling certain positions in taxable at a loss, if you have purchased, including via dividends, the same positions in other accounts (taxable, IRAs, 401ks [some debate about whether 401ks are covered by the wash sale rule], etc.) within the wash sale period (30 days before and after the date of the sale at a loss), then you can't recognize the loss to the extent of the purchase in the other account. If the purchase is in anything other than a taxable account, the loss is disallowed forever.

See this wiki about TLH for more information: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax_loss_harvesting
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

tashnewbie wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:44 pm
lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:05 pm
tashnewbie wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:52 pm I would sell all of the lots that have losses, assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.

I would direct the proceeds into something like ITOT or SCHB.

I would probably sell an equivalent amount of VUG and/or VGT (no net gain, so no tax) to unwind those positions.

I would direct dividends and capital gains into your settlement account so you have more control over how you use them.
Just trying to understand. When you say "assuming you don't have any of those funds in any other account.", you mean another taxable account. For example. I have Roth IRA($32K) that I max out yearly. It has VBR, VGT and VOOG. I'm planning to clean up those as well but it would not generate a taxable event. Now I kind of see the point to work on them together. I also have 401K accounts where I have bonds allocation in addition to SP500 and some international MFs. My primary goal was to clean up the taxable account without triggering too much taxes.

Image
You should study up on tax loss harvesting (TLH) and wash sales, if you're not familiar. If you're selling certain positions in taxable at a loss, if you have purchased, including via dividends, the same positions in other accounts (taxable, IRAs, 401ks [some debate about whether 401ks are covered by the wash sale rule], etc.) within the wash sale period (30 days before and after the date of the sale at a loss), then you can't recognize the loss to the extent of the purchase in the other account. If the purchase is in anything other than a taxable account, the loss is disallowed forever.

See this wiki about TLH for more information: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax_loss_harvesting
My Roth IRA is set for this year. I have no need to buy anything there but now I wonder if I should clean up that account 1st before cleaning up the taxable.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

lakpr wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:32 pm
lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:22 pm So just I understand.
1. sell VBR with losses only, keep one VBR with gains
2. sell VFH
3. sell all VOO
4. keep all VGT
5. sell VUG worth $6300 or close enough.

questions
1. Why do I want to keep VGT? There could be a reason. Tech has made me ok money. I had them as MF before.
2. still not sure Why not buy VBR for 31 days?
1. I assumed that you do not want to pay taxes at this time unnecessarily. So I asked you to sell only to just enough offset the losses. VGT has gains in it. Long term gains. If you are ok paying 15% rate on the gains, that is ok.

2. You are selling the VBR lots with losses, and realizing those losses. If you buy the same ETF again within 30 days, you will NOT be able to claim these losses on your tax return that you will file at the end of the year, since it would be flagged as a wash sale. That's why I asked you to wait for 31 days (it's only actually 30 days for the wash sale period, but I padded it by one more day) from the date of the sale.
Just wondering. I posted my Roth IRA allocations. I'm thinking that I could 1st sell VGT and VOOG and buy VBR in there. Then do the clean-up you are suggesting so I don't end up with wash sales. This way I don't need to buy VBR for a while. As a note, I did buy VTI today worth $6K. I don't think it matters as I'm keeping VTI anyway. DO you see any problem with it?
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

I have a generic question about Vanguard TLH. Do they properly report it or I would have to keep track of it?

Thanks
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retiredjg
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

You could sell everything in Roth IRA and put it in a target fund for a month or so. Then clean up your taxable account. Wait 30 days. Then buy whatever you want in the Roth IRA ....but do not put anything in the Roth IRA that is also (or ever will be) in taxable.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:42 pm You could sell everything in Roth IRA and put it in a target fund for a month or so. Then clean up your taxable account. Wait 30 days. Then buy whatever you want in the Roth IRA ....but do not put anything in the Roth IRA that is also (or ever will be) in taxable.
I still need VBR somewhere. I have plenty of bonds in 401Ks. I guess I could put it into target 2055 or something to reduce bonds allocation.
I feel like I would end up with VBR and/or VTI in taxable and Roth IRA at some point.
Am I missing something?
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retiredjg
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:59 pm
retiredjg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:42 pm You could sell everything in Roth IRA and put it in a target fund for a month or so. Then clean up your taxable account. Wait 30 days. Then buy whatever you want in the Roth IRA ....but do not put anything in the Roth IRA that is also (or ever will be) in taxable.
I still need VBR somewhere. I have plenty of bonds in 401Ks. I guess I could put it into target 2055 or something to reduce bonds allocation.
I feel like I would end up with VBR and/or VTI in taxable and Roth IRA at some point.
Am I missing something?
If you have the same fund in both taxable and Roth IRA, you will always have to watch for and/or do things to avoid wash sales and/or work out the wash sales on your taxes.

If you want to avoid doing those things, don't hold the same funds in taxable and Roth IRA.

Total stock is easy - instead of total stock, hold 500 index in Roth IRA. Don't ever put 500 index in taxable. If you want, complete that with extended market index.

Small cap value is not as easy. Either hold it in only one account or find another ETF that will give you a small cap value tilt but is not "substantially identical" to VBR.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:29 pm
lepa71 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:59 pm
retiredjg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:42 pm You could sell everything in Roth IRA and put it in a target fund for a month or so. Then clean up your taxable account. Wait 30 days. Then buy whatever you want in the Roth IRA ....but do not put anything in the Roth IRA that is also (or ever will be) in taxable.
I still need VBR somewhere. I have plenty of bonds in 401Ks. I guess I could put it into target 2055 or something to reduce bonds allocation.
I feel like I would end up with VBR and/or VTI in taxable and Roth IRA at some point.
Am I missing something?
If you have the same fund in both taxable and Roth IRA, you will always have to watch for and/or do things to avoid wash sales and/or work out the wash sales on your taxes.

If you want to avoid doing those things, don't hold the same funds in taxable and Roth IRA.

Total stock is easy - instead of total stock, hold 500 index in Roth IRA. Don't ever put 500 index in taxable. If you want, complete that with extended market index.

Small cap value is not as easy. Either hold it in only one account or find another ETF that will give you a small cap value tilt but is not "substantially identical" to VBR.
Does Vanguard report loss harvesting or do I have to do it myself( I mean my tax person)?

So the plan is.
1. sell everything in Roth IRA and buy target 2055 to hold for 31 days
2. clean up taxable as was stated above.
3. in 31 days sell target 2055 and buy VOO in Roth IRA.

This way if I want to buy more VBR I could.

Is that sound right?
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by abuss368 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:06 pm lepa71:

Consider the Three-Fund Portfolio as a target for your consolidation.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "There may be better investment strategies than owning just three broad-based index funds but the number of strategies that are worse is infinite."
Bogleheads -

This is excellent advice. The Three Fund Portfolio is simple and can never be blow average in performance. It owns the markets at the lowest costs.

Investors would be wise to listen.

Best.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Topic Author
LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:42 pm You could sell everything in Roth IRA and put it in a target fund for a month or so. Then clean up your taxable account. Wait 30 days. Then buy whatever you want in the Roth IRA ....but do not put anything in the Roth IRA that is also (or ever will be) in taxable.
@retiredjg Can I use my VOOG in Roth instead of Target fund for 31 days?

Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
tashnewbie
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by tashnewbie »

lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
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LmG7119
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

Do I have to sell and buy on the same day in my case in a taxable account?
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:26 am
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
This is maybe a stupid question. Let's say, selling VOO in a taxable account and buying Fidelity® 500 Index Fund/FXAIX in 401k. Is it considered a wash sale? I do bi-weekly contributions to my 401k where I FXAIX.

Thanks
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by tashnewbie »

lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:46 am
tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:26 am
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
This is maybe a stupid question. Let's say, selling VOO in a taxable account and buying Fidelity® 500 Index Fund/FXAIX in 401k. Is it considered a wash sale? I do bi-weekly contributions to my 401k where I FXAIX.

Thanks
Most people on the forum would consider different S&P 500 funds to be "substantially identical" per IRS parlance and they'd create a wash sale against each other. Probably fewer people agree about whether 401ks are considered part of the wash sale rule. I don't want to start a long debate on this thread and possibly get it locked. I'll just say that I take what might be a conservative position and consider all my accounts part of the wash sale rule. At worst, you'd be looking at a small portion of VOO losses that'd be disallowed (the amount of FXAIX purchased in the 401k).
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

lepa71, I don't think you have a good understanding of wash sales. This is not a criticism - it is a complicated subject.

I'm not the best person to explain this, but here are some basic things I think you may not yet understand.

1. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss, there will be a wash sale if you have bought that fund in taxable within the last 30 days and you keep those shares just bought. These are called "replacement shares" even though you bought them before. Vanguard should flag this for you.

2. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss, there will be a wash sale if you buy that fund in taxable in the next 30 days. What you buy is considered "replacement shares" for what you sold at a loss. Vanguard should flag this for you.

3. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss and you have bought that same fund in another account (see comment below) within the last 30 days, there will be a wash sale. Again, these are considered replacement shares even though you bought them earlier. Vanguard does not flag this for you. You have to report it yourself.

4. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss and you buy it in another account within the next 30 days, there is a wash sale. Vanguard does not flag that for you. You have to report it yourself.

Note - reinvestment of dividends is a purchase. In all accounts. So you may think "I have not bought ___ in the last 30 days and will not buy it in the next 30 days so I'm OK. But if you have reinvested a dividend in ____ in the last/next 30 days then you have purchased/will purchase ___ in the last/next 30 days.


My suggestion earlier, to sell everything in Roth and hold a target fund there for 30 days, will only help you avoid the wash sales described in #3 and #4 - wash sales with another account. If you don't hold anything in Roth IRA that is in taxable, there cannot be a wash sale.

You have to figure out if there will be wash sales caused by #1 and #2 (wash sales with other purchases in the same account). Or you can see what Vanguard does to flag them. A wash sale is not illegal. It only means you do not get to take that part of your loss off your taxes.


So yes, you can hold only VOOG (500 index growth) in the Roth IRA instead of a target fund - you do not have VOOG in taxable.


What is "another account"?
  • Any other taxable account - yes

    Any IRA or Roth IRA - yes (the IRS has told us so)

    401k/403b/457/HSA - undetermined; some people think yes and some think no; the IRS has not made any statements about it


I have not looked at the dates of all your purchases, but it is possible if you sell only the VBR with losses, that you will create a wash sale with the VBR you still hold in taxable because some may have been purchased within the last 30 days (either intentionally or by reinvestment of a dividend).

You can avoid this (sell VBR in every other account and then sell all VBR in taxable, wait 30 days and buy it again in only 1 account). Or you can simply let Vanguard flag it and not take that part of the loss off your taxes. I have only done this once and it was a few years ago so I don't recall how easy/hard this is to do on taxes.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:26 am
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
I think they will only report wash sales in the same account. I am pretty sure we have been told they do not check your other Vanguard accounts (like a Roth IRA) and obviously they cannot see accounts held elsewhere.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by tashnewbie »

retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:13 am
tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:26 am
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
I think they will only report wash sales in the same account. I am pretty sure we have been told they do not check your other Vanguard accounts (like a Roth IRA) and obviously they cannot see accounts held elsewhere.
Good to know!
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:25 am
retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:13 am
tashnewbie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:26 am
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:51 am Also, Does Vanguard report properly loss harvesting?
Yes. Presuming all of the lots you're selling are covered lots. Vanguard has no visibility into your holdings in non-Vanguard accounts, so if you create a wash sale with one of those, it can't report that.
I think they will only report wash sales in the same account. I am pretty sure we have been told they do not check your other Vanguard accounts (like a Roth IRA) and obviously they cannot see accounts held elsewhere.
Good to know!
Not speaking from experience. Just what I think I've read here.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:11 am lepa71, I don't think you have a good understanding of wash sales. This is not a criticism - it is a complicated subject.

I'm not the best person to explain this, but here are some basic things I think you may not yet understand.

1. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss, there will be a wash sale if you have bought that fund in taxable within the last 30 days and you keep those shares just bought. These are called "replacement shares" even though you bought them before. Vanguard should flag this for you.

2. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss, there will be a wash sale if you buy that fund in taxable in the next 30 days. What you buy is considered "replacement shares" for what you sold at a loss. Vanguard should flag this for you.

3. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss and you have bought that same fund in another account (see comment below) within the last 30 days, there will be a wash sale. Again, these are considered replacement shares even though you bought them earlier. Vanguard does not flag this for you. You have to report it yourself.

4. If you sell a fund in your taxable account at a loss and you buy it in another account within the next 30 days, there is a wash sale. Vanguard does not flag that for you. You have to report it yourself.

Note - reinvestment of dividends is a purchase. In all accounts. So you may think "I have not bought ___ in the last 30 days and will not buy it in the next 30 days so I'm OK. But if you have reinvested a dividend in ____ in the last/next 30 days then you have purchased/will purchase ___ in the last/next 30 days.


My suggestion earlier, to sell everything in Roth and hold a target fund there for 30 days, will only help you avoid the wash sales described in #3 and #4 - wash sales with another account. If you don't hold anything in Roth IRA that is in taxable, there cannot be a wash sale.

You have to figure out if there will be wash sales caused by #1 and #2 (wash sales with other purchases in the same account). Or you can see what Vanguard does to flag them. A wash sale is not illegal. It only means you do not get to take that part of your loss off your taxes.


So yes, you can hold only VOOG (500 index growth) in the Roth IRA instead of a target fund - you do not have VOOG in taxable.


What is "another account"?
  • Any other taxable account - yes

    Any IRA or Roth IRA - yes (the IRS has told us so)

    401k/403b/457/HSA - undetermined; some people think yes and some think no; the IRS has not made any statements about it


I have not looked at the dates of all your purchases, but it is possible if you sell only the VBR with losses, that you will create a wash sale with the VBR you still hold in taxable because some may have been purchased within the last 30 days (either intentionally or by reinvestment of a dividend).

You can avoid this (sell VBR in every other account and then sell all VBR in taxable, wait 30 days and buy it again in only 1 account). Or you can simply let Vanguard flag it and not take that part of the loss off your taxes. I have only done this once and it was a few years ago so I don't recall how easy/hard this is to do on taxes.
I much appreciate the information you provided. I have learned a lot from it.
I just want re-confirm. I think you are mixing VBR and VBK. VBK has 3 blocks. 2 with losses that were bought in march and april of 2021 and 1 with gains bought in 2018. For VBR, they are all losses and I would like to keep it all. If I sell VBK losses lots(2 of them), they would be the latest and not purchased within the last 30 days. Do you see this as a concern?

The more I think the more I'm inclined to get rid of VGT, VOO, VFH, and partial VBK( losses lots only). In my mind, VGT is in VUG anyway. I'm ok to keep it and just not add more to it. Future concentrations would be to invest in VTI and VBR as needed.

The questions are
Does buy and sell VOO vs VOOG consider to be a wash sale?
Can I sell all VOO and buy VTI on the same day?
Does short-term vs long-term loss make a difference in loss harvesting?
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:00 pm I just want re-confirm. I think you are mixing VBR and VBK. VBK has 3 blocks. 2 with losses that were bought in march and april of 2021 and 1 with gains bought in 2018. For VBR, they are all losses and I would like to keep it all. If I sell VBK losses lots(2 of them), they would be the latest and not purchased within the last 30 days. Do you see this as a concern?
I did not look at the losses and gains. Your post yesterday, in your conversation with lakpr, talked about selling VBR with losses and keeping the VBR with gains. That is all I was talking about.

If I sell VBK losses lots(2 of them), they would be the latest and not purchased within the last 30 days. Do you see this as a concern?
No. But if you are trying to tilt toward value, there is no reason to keep ANY of the VBK (which is growth). Or any other growth funds for that matter.

Are you sure you understand what tilting to small cap value means? Your portfolio choices seem to indicate you don't.

The more I think the more I'm inclined to get rid of VGT, VOO, VFH, and partial VBK( losses lots only). In my mind, VGT is in VUG anyway. I'm ok to keep it and just not add more to it. Future concentrations would be to invest in VTI and VBR as needed.
If I were you, I'd get rid of everything in taxable except total stock and total international. If you want a small cap value tilt, put it in the Roth IRA (more than 30 days after selling it in taxable).

Does buy and sell VOO vs VOOG consider to be a wash sale?
Not in my opinion.

Can I sell all VOO and buy VTI on the same day?
Yes, unless you have to wait for settlement.

Does short-term vs long-term loss make a difference in loss harvesting?
Maybe.

Short term losses offset short term gains. Long term losses offset long term gains. If you have any losses left after all that, they offset any kind of leftover gain.

What you want to avoid is short term gains that are not offset by losses of one kind or the other. That is because short term gains are taxed at a higher rate.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:29 pm
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:00 pm I just want re-confirm. I think you are mixing VBR and VBK. VBK has 3 blocks. 2 with losses that were bought in march and april of 2021 and 1 with gains bought in 2018. For VBR, they are all losses and I would like to keep it all. If I sell VBK losses lots(2 of them), they would be the latest and not purchased within the last 30 days. Do you see this as a concern?
I did not look at the losses and gains. Your post yesterday, in your conversation with lakpr, talked about selling VBR with losses and keeping the VBR with gains. That is all I was talking about.

If I sell VBK losses lots(2 of them), they would be the latest and not purchased within the last 30 days. Do you see this as a concern?
No. But if you are trying to tilt toward value, there is no reason to keep ANY of the VBK (which is growth). Or any other growth funds for that matter.

Are you sure you understand what tilting to small cap value means? Your portfolio choices seem to indicate you don't.

The more I think the more I'm inclined to get rid of VGT, VOO, VFH, and partial VBK( losses lots only). In my mind, VGT is in VUG anyway. I'm ok to keep it and just not add more to it. Future concentrations would be to invest in VTI and VBR as needed.
If I were you, I'd get rid of everything in taxable except total stock and total international. If you want a small cap value tilt, put it in the Roth IRA (more than 30 days after selling it in taxable).

Does buy and sell VOO vs VOOG consider to be a wash sale?
Not in my opinion.

Can I sell all VOO and buy VTI on the same day?
Yes, unless you have to wait for settlement.

Does short-term vs long-term loss make a difference in loss harvesting?
Maybe.

Short term losses offset short term gains. Long term losses offset long term gains. If you have any losses left after all that, they offset any kind of leftover gain.

What you want to avoid is short term gains that are not offset by losses of one kind or the other. That is because short term gains are taxed at a higher rate.
I think you are right. I screwed up. I mixed VBK and VBR. I want to keep VBR but lakpr was proposing to sell VBR because of the losses, I think.

Let me run this by you.
1. sell VBR and VGT in Roth IRA. I would have to wait for settlement as I'm selling all( this is per Vanguard). Buy VOOG in Roth. This is going to stay there for 31 days.
2. sell all VBK (losses and gains lots), VFH, VGT, VOO. Keep VBR. Let it settle and buy VTI and some VXUS. I calculated I would have a net loss of $800. I think this loss can go against my regular income. I would keep VUG but not invest more into it. I know it is not as small-cap value tilted per se to be but I'm ok with it.
3. After 31 days, I can sell VOOG in Roth and I can either buy VBR or VOO( leaning towards VOO). Eventually, buy more VBR in Taxable later on and buy more VOO in Roth.

Outstanding question. Will that $800 loss would go against ordinary income?

Thanks
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by lakpr »

lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:16 pmI want to keep VBR but lakpr was proposing to sell VBR because of the losses, I think.
Yes, correct. Seems like a darn waste to let those losses not be realized ...

Googled "small cap value ETFs", and got the below list:

https://etfdb.com/etfs/size-and-style/small-cap-value/

You might want to sell VBR too, realize the losses so that you can offset that loss by selling off some VUG. Keep your exposure to small-cap value factor by buying one of the other ETFs in that list (say you picked AVUV as replacement)

After 31 days passed, sell AVUV and buy VBR back.
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:16 pm Outstanding question. Will that $800 loss would go against ordinary income?
Yes, assuming that you would not realize any more losses or gains before the end of the year. As @retiredjg said:
first, like offsets like. [ Short term losses offset short term gains; long term losses offset long term gains ]
then, like offsets unlike [ if any short term gains, they offset long term losses; if any short term losses, they offset long term gains ]
if you STILL have any losses left, either long-term or short-term, they offset ordinary income but to a limit of $3000 per year (and this amount is NOT inflation-indexed).
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:16 pm 1. sell VBR and VGT in Roth IRA. I would have to wait for settlement as I'm selling all( this is per Vanguard). Buy VOOG in Roth. This is going to stay there for 31 days.
You can do this but why use a growth fund, even for a month, when you are trying to tilt AWAY from growth and TOWARD value?

2. sell all VBK (losses and gains lots), VFH, VGT, VOO. Keep VBR. Let it settle and buy VTI and some VXUS. I calculated I would have a net loss of $800. I think this loss can go against my regular income.
I get a very different number. Why don't you show us how you got that number.

I would keep VUG but not invest more into it. I know it is not as small-cap value tilted per se to be but I'm ok with it.
Are you aware that "growth" is the opposite of "value"? Your growth funds are obliterating your small cap value "tilt" (if you ever had one).


Outstanding question. Will that $800 loss would go against ordinary income?
Whatever is left over, up to $3k, is applied against ordinary income. If there is more after using the $3k, you carry it over to a future year.

However, I get a very different number. And it would be better to get rid of the VUG if you no longer want it.


My suggestion....you say you want to tilt to small cap value. Your funds are pointing toward large cap growth instead. The very opposite of what you say you want.

Is it possible you have been buying all these growth funds because they have been doing so well the last few years? Chasing performance, perhaps?

I suggest that you hold a market weight portfolio, no tilts, until you have a better understanding of tiltiing. Then pick one (if you must) and stay there for decades.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:58 pm
lepa71 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:16 pm 1. sell VBR and VGT in Roth IRA. I would have to wait for settlement as I'm selling all( this is per Vanguard). Buy VOOG in Roth. This is going to stay there for 31 days.
You can do this but why use a growth fund, even for a month, when you are trying to tilt AWAY from growth and TOWARD value?

2. sell all VBK (losses and gains lots), VFH, VGT, VOO. Keep VBR. Let it settle and buy VTI and some VXUS. I calculated I would have a net loss of $800. I think this loss can go against my regular income.
I get a very different number. Why don't you show us how you got that number.

I would keep VUG but not invest more into it. I know it is not as small-cap value tilted per se to be but I'm ok with it.
Are you aware that "growth" is the opposite of "value"? Your growth funds are obliterating your small cap value "tilt" (if you ever had one).


Outstanding question. Will that $800 loss would go against ordinary income?
Whatever is left over, up to $3k, is applied against ordinary income. If there is more after using the $3k, you carry it over to a future year.

However, I get a very different number. And it would be better to get rid of the VUG if you no longer want it.


My suggestion....you say you want to tilt to small cap value. Your funds are pointing toward large cap growth instead. The very opposite of what you say you want.

Is it possible you have been buying all these growth funds because they have been doing so well the last few years? Chasing performance, perhaps?

I suggest that you hold a market weight portfolio, no tilts, until you have a better understanding of tiltiing. Then pick one (if you must) and stay there for decades.
To your "
However, I get a very different number. And it would be better to get rid of the VUG if you no longer want it.

I pulled a new cost basis export and with all gains today it is less. If I do sell VBR then I have about $1400. I was trying to get rid of VGT whereas lakpr was keeping it and trying to sell VUG as much as possible. I believe VGT is growth as VUG is but I feel like VUG is more diversified. That is why I was trying to sell VGT first.
Is it possible you have been buying all these growth funds because they have been doing so well the last few years? Chasing performance, perhaps?
Yes, I was. ;-) It did quite well. This is why I wasn't sure if I want to sell it. I also was new to this and dumber less educated. :oops: :sharebeer

So maybe to learn more. If I have a loss of $800 but by the year-end, I will get more gains than what?
Come to think of it. I should have said that goal would be to simplify taxable account with having small-cap value.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by retiredjg »

Well, you got $800 extra losses and I got $2,500 in extra losses (without selling VBR). So one of us is wrong by a lot.

That is why I asked how you got that number. I got my number from the first chart you posted.
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Re: Help to consolidate in Taxable account

Post by LmG7119 »

retiredjg wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:33 pm Well, you got $800 extra losses and I got $2,500 in extra losses (without selling VBR). So one of us is wrong by a lot.

That is why I asked how you got that number. I got my number from the first chart you posted.
I know when I made a mistake with the new cost basis. Here it is. It's about $1000.
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