New fee for Vanguard mutual [and brokerage accounts - July 2023 updates]

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retired@50
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by retired@50 »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:54 pm The impression I have from Vanguard's recent emails that threaten to charge $20 per account is that if we are good boys and girls and transition to a brokerage account(s) there will be no fees.

Does anyone know what the truth is?
With a brokerage account, you also have to accept (or set up) e-delivery of documents. No paper mailings if you want to avoid the fee.
Details here: https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees

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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:47 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:40 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
I gave the rep feedback on my perspective regarding Vanguard's mismanagement of this whole thing to send up the chain.
Been with Vanguard a long time, but combined with previous issues this has me seriously considering transferring our accts out.
I'm feeling the same way. I've been with Vanguard for decades. I first began reading Bogle's articles and books in the 1980s. I've spread Jack's advice to anyone who would listen, and recommended Vanguard too many times to count.

The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal. I get all of the reasons why Vanguard wants customers to transition to brokerage accounts, but it is primarily for Vanguard's benefit (and indirectly, the investors). My wife and I have no need to make the switch, but several months ago, after receiving many very laid back/low key emails, I attempted to complete the transition. I very quickly ran into problems and gave up.

There was no mention of any fees -- which for us will be at least $60. In fact, my impression from the tone of the earlier emails was that investors had the *option* to transition their accounts but that if they did not, Vanguard would eventually do it. I know now that is not the case, but those initial emails made it sound that way: "Don't sweat it dude! Vanguard has ya covered..."

More recently, Vanguard is now adamant that all customers must switch or pay fees. If they are that worried about it, but they can't or won't do the transfer themselves (with permission) they should make it a simple process for investors -- a few clicks. As it is, it's a huge PITA for many people, and when you call customer service you are told that there is an almost 1 hour wait time. The hold music is like an ice pick in your ear. In my case at least, there was no call back option.

There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

This was a duplicate post.
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by tj »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:19 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:47 pm
exodusNH wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:40 pm
surfinagin wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:38 pm I have Limited Agent Authorization for an elderly relative. On 9/06, found no link/tab when we logged onto their account to make this change. Called Vanguard, and told by rep that b/c it's an "inactive account" (I do their transactions from mine) the online option wasn't provided. OK then.
They said the req'd forms they were mailing would be received within 5 days. Now 16 days later: called again and was told Vanguard is backed-up with many form requests, and no projection for when they will be received. But don't worry, if the forms aren't provided in time to avoid the $20/fund acct service fee deadline, then a note would be added to their acct and they won't have to pay the fee.

Vanguard staffing must be cut to the bone when they can't put 2 blank forms in an envelope and mail them within 2 weeks, or even project when they will manage to accomplish this.
They definitely are short staffed, but they complicated matters by announcing the fee out of the blue 6 weeks ago.
I gave the rep feedback on my perspective regarding Vanguard's mismanagement of this whole thing to send up the chain.
Been with Vanguard a long time, but combined with previous issues this has me seriously considering transferring our accts out.
I'm feeling the same way. I've been with Vanguard for decades. I first began reading Bogle's articles and books in the 1980s. I've spread Jack's advice to anyone who would listen, and recommended Vanguard too many times to count.

The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal. I get all of the reasons why Vanguard wants customers to transition to brokerage accounts, but it is primarily for Vanguard's benefit (and indirectly, the investors). My wife and I have no need to make the switch, but several months ago, after receiving many very laid back/low key emails, I attempted to complete the transition. I very quickly ran into problems and gave up.

There was no mention of any fees -- which for us will be at least $60. In fact, my impression from the tone of the earlier emails was that investors had the *option* to transition their accounts but that if they did not, Vanguard would eventually do it. I know now that is not the case, but those initial emails made it sound that way: "Don't sweat it dude! Vanguard has ya covered..."

More recently, Vanguard is now adamant that all customers must switch or pay fees. If they are that worried about it, but they can't or won't do the transfer themselves (with permission) they should make it a simple process for investors -- a few clicks. As it is, it's a huge PITA for many people, and when you call customer service you are told that there is an almost 1 hour wait time. The hold music is like an ice pick in your ear. In my case at least, there was no call back option.

There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?
I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
“Fund performance comes and goes. Costs go on forever.” – John Bogle | | “The two greatest enemies of the equity fund investor are expenses and emotions.” – John Bogle
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:43 am Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
Part of the attraction for some is that they have physical offices in many areas. Schwab has a full service office in my small town (tbf, the county is quite wealthy). Fidelity has offices only an hour away. Not something I need but some like face to face service — at least as a backstop if the call centers get overwhelmed.

I’ve used them all. Fidelity, Schwab and now VG. They each have their advantages and warts.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Barkingsparrow »

I'm almost done with the process of moving my Money Market mutual fund over to a brokerage account, the checkbook is on the way. It was slightly painful to do this, as I had to go through a few hoops due to a different joint ownership scenario. I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.

So now I'm 100% moved to brokerage.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

sajohnson wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:19 pm The pending $20/account fees would upset Bogle a great deal.
Upon what are you basing this statement?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

jebmke wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:23 am
sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:43 am Shortening the above post:

"There is no way I'm going to pay a $60/year fee for something that I have no control over.

I hear TIAA is pretty good. Any other suggestions?"
~

"I don't think anybody would recommend TIAA over fidelity or Schwab."

~

OK. What about, say, T. Rowe?

I haven't looked into any other companies because until the other day I had planned to continue with Vanguard for the rest of my life.

I know in the past TIAA-CREF had a very good rep, but so do the others. What is it about Fidelity and Schwab that make them stand out?
Part of the attraction for some is that they have physical offices in many areas. Schwab has a full service office in my small town (tbf, the county is quite wealthy). Fidelity has offices only an hour away. Not something I need but some like face to face service — at least as a backstop if the call centers get overwhelmed.

I’ve used them all. Fidelity, Schwab and now VG. They each have their advantages and warts.
Would love to hear the ads and warts for all three of them, thanks
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

Well I finally did the transition a few hours ago, it wasn't too bad. When they want you to E-sign, it's actually just a click of a button to sign(one click), I thought it would be an actual signature and I had my laptop pen ready, I was surprised by that as I never seen that before anywhere else. There were like 4,5 pages of things to read before you sign, I just skimmed real quick it was to usual T&C I think.

Yesterday I purchased some funds, before the transition today I checked and the purchases were there, so it should be fine right, after transition I will check again.

For the new brokerage there is actually SIPC up to 500k, for the old MF account there wasn't any SIPC , I didn't know that and I didn't even know about SIPC , I googled real quick I think it's to protect us from like "Madoff" or if Vanguard goes bankrupt etc. That's pretty good and another reason to switch to new platform with the SIPC .
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am I'm almost done with the process of moving my Money Market mutual fund over to a brokerage account, the checkbook is on the way. It was slightly painful to do this, as I had to go through a few hoops due to a different joint ownership scenario. I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.

So now I'm 100% moved to brokerage.
That's good to hear!

I've sent 2 emails to 2 different addresses and received no replies.

Would you mind sharing the email address you used?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Barkingsparrow »

sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:22 pm
Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.
That's good to hear!

I've sent 2 emails to 2 different addresses and received no replies.

Would you mind sharing the email address you used?
I just hit the "Message" icon that shows up on the main Account view screen upper right? Nothing special.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jeffyscott »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:28 pm
sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:22 pm
Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.
That's good to hear!

I've sent 2 emails to 2 different addresses and received no replies.

Would you mind sharing the email address you used?
I just hit the "Message" icon that shows up on the main Account view screen upper right? Nothing special.
And if you don't have that, click on "upload document". That link also allows secure messaging, whether or not you have a document to upload.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Thank you both, Barking and Jeffy. Very helpful. I'll give that a try.

I was attempting to find something appropriate under "contact us", which typically works with most websites.

I've been with Vanguard for decades, but in part because I follow Bogle's advice (Stay the course) and because the website has been good, I've had little reason to contact them over the years, and when I have it was by phone.

Ironically, I was just telling my brother a couple weeks ago about how great Vanguard's customer service is -- how their CSRs typically pick up within a few rings, how knowledgeable they are, etc. Then I tried to contact them the other day and found the wait time was almost an hour, and there was no 'call back option'. That's what led to the email.
Last edited by sajohnson on Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:28 pm
sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:22 pm
Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am I emailed Vanguard support twice, and did get prompt responses both time - next day.
That's good to hear!

I've sent 2 emails to 2 different addresses and received no replies.

Would you mind sharing the email address you used?
I just hit the "Message" icon that shows up on the main Account view screen upper right? Nothing special.
At the risk of seeming dense, are you referring to the "Message center" -- with an 'inbox' and 'sent mail'?

I was hoping there would be an actual email address, but sending a message would work.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

To my knowledge, sending an email to a traditional email address has never been an option with Vanguard, so this isn't really something new or related to recent website changes.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:17 pm To my knowledge, sending an email to a traditional email address has never been an option with Vanguard, so this isn't really something new or related to recent website changes.
There are email addresses listed, but they do not seem to be intended for individual investors to use.

I know there are some corporations that do not have a publicly available email address(es). Costco is one that comes to mind. Apparently Vanguard is another.

As I said above, in 30+ years, the handful of times I've communicated with Vanguard CSRs has been by phone. It's only because of the currently long wait times that I thought I'd try email -- for the first time.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

Correct, I think the addresses are not for individual investors for account-related correspondence. Out of curiosity, what email address for Vanguard did you attempt to use?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by SmileyFace »

Investment101 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:13 pm
For the new brokerage there is actually SIPC up to 500k, for the old MF account there wasn't any SIPC , I didn't know that and I didn't even know about SIPC , I googled real quick I think it's to protect us from like "Madoff" or if Vanguard goes bankrupt etc. That's pretty good and another reason to switch to new platform with the SIPC .
This is Vanguard marketing mis-information and one of the things that really annoyed me about Vanguard (them giving dishonest information to get you to switch). With fund ownership you did not need SIPC protection since there was not a brokerage involved holding your funds.
There are lots of wiki articles to get informed on various things - you should read up there first. For SIPC:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/SIPC_pr ... tual_funds
Before you were holding your funds directly. Now your funds are held by VBS - thus the need to be protected against them. This new ownership arrangement was in those Ts and Cs you mentioned skimming through.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

^And are you not now also using a broker with SIPC insurance?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

SmileyFace wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:19 am
Investment101 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:13 pm
For the new brokerage there is actually SIPC up to 500k, for the old MF account there wasn't any SIPC , I didn't know that and I didn't even know about SIPC , I googled real quick I think it's to protect us from like "Madoff" or if Vanguard goes bankrupt etc. That's pretty good and another reason to switch to new platform with the SIPC .
This is Vanguard marketing mis-information and one of the things that really annoyed me about Vanguard (them giving dishonest information to get you to switch). With fund ownership you did not need SIPC protection since there was not a brokerage involved holding your funds.
There are lots of wiki articles to get informed on various things - you should read up there first. For SIPC:
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/SIPC_pr ... tual_funds
Before you were holding your funds directly. Now your funds are held by VBS - thus the need to be protected against them. This new ownership arrangement was in those Ts and Cs you mentioned skimming through.
It certainly would be better to come right out and put a stake in the ground on obsoleting the old platform.

My company used to give a three year notice on obsoleting a product line. That gave customers time to engineer their way on to the new technology, purchase spares for existing installations and otherwise plan for the transition. In the end we lost few customers. A few would buy up as much stock of old tech they could get but with the realization that it had a warranty clock running and getting service would be almost impossible.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Barkingsparrow »

sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:50 pm At the risk of seeming dense, are you referring to the "Message center" -- with an 'inbox' and 'sent mail'?

I was hoping there would be an actual email address, but sending a message would work.

Sorry, but that's all I have. When I hit the "Account Overview" from the top level Portfolio pull down, I see an envelope icon, which takes me to the Message Center and I just hit the Compose button.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:04 pm Correct, I think the addresses are not for individual investors for account-related correspondence. Out of curiosity, what email address for Vanguard did you attempt to use?
A few years ago I would get email from my Flagship rep -- regular email from a Vanguard domain. Nothing confidential but nonetheless I asked to be removed from all emails that are not required by law. So far they have abided by that.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by sajohnson »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:41 am
sajohnson wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:50 pm At the risk of seeming dense, are you referring to the "Message center" -- with an 'inbox' and 'sent mail'?

I was hoping there would be an actual email address, but sending a message would work.

Sorry, but that's all I have. When I hit the "Account Overview" from the top level Portfolio pull down, I see an envelope icon, which takes me to the Message Center and I just hit the Compose button.
Thank you Barkingsparrow.

Last night the Vanguard site was down for maintenance, and now it won't load at all (may be trouble on my end) but I will try that.

<Later> Their site is working now. It seems you were referring to the "Message Center" after all. Our pages seem to be different, because I did not have to click on "Account Overview" -- the envelope icon was already displayed. I clicked on it and that took me to the message center. It looks like that should work. Thanks again.

In a nutshell, I let them know that I've been a Bogle fan for about 35 years, and I've been with Vanguard about that long. I'd prefer to stay with Vanguard but if they cannot assist with the transition in the next couple days, I will reluctantly be forced to transfer all of our funds from Vanguard to another company.

There is no way we are going to pay fees because Vanguard has decided they like brokerage funds better, but they refuse to do the transitions (with investor authorization) or at a bare minimum, assist customers with the transition.

I get that many people completed the transition in 5-10 minutes without any issues whatsoever. That's how it should be. Unfortunately, there are also countless nightmare stories. In fact, even some people who had help from a Vanguard CSR report that the process was FUBAR, and the CSR had no idea what to do.

With that in mind, I'm wondering if it might make sense to just bid farewell to Vanguard and transfer our accounts to another company.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

sajohnson, what is the actual issue you are encountering with your attempts to transition that's requiring the assistance of a CSR in the first place? I don't believe you've shared that yet. Only that you tried and ran into problems. What problems?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rolliek »

[Post merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I am confused. They say I have to convert all my mutual funds to the new VBA even though I have no brokerage accounts. Is this correct? I have my ira and a bond fund. Thanks to anyone for advice.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by LadyGeek »

rolliek - I moved your question into the thread which can answer your question.

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and explained what's wrong.)
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

rolliek wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:54 am [Post merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I am confused. They say I have to convert all my mutual funds to the new VBA even though I have no brokerage accounts. Is this correct? I have my ira and a bond fund. Thanks to anyone for advice.
If you have less than $1M of Vanguard assets and would like to avoid a $20 per mutual fund fee in each account, yes, you need to switch to the brokerage account and accept electronic statements. You could also transfer your funds to a new brokerage, such as Fidelity or Schwab.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by prd1982 »

rolliek wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:54 am [Post merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I am confused. They say I have to convert all my mutual funds to the new VBA even though I have no brokerage accounts. Is this correct? I have my ira and a bond fund. Thanks to anyone for advice.
You don't need to convert your funds. You need to move your mutual funds to their brokerage platform. I just wanted to clarify that you don't need to switch to ETFs.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by celia »

rolliek wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:54 am [Post merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

I am confused. They say I have to convert all my mutual funds to the new VBA even though I have no brokerage accounts. Is this correct? I have my ira and a bond fund. Thanks to anyone for advice.
Vanguard has two types of accounts: mutual fund accounts and brokerage accounts. They are on different platforms (computer systems). Since they are getting rid of the old mutual fund platform, they want everyone to “transition” their accounts to the brokerage account platform. This has been going on about five years. To “encourage” those who have not yet moved to brokerage accounts, they are implementing fees on the mutual fund platform.

You can still own mutual funds in the brokerage accounts as well as individual stocks, bonds, and ETFs (Exchange Traded Funds) that can be sold during the trading day, unlike mutual funds that only trade when the markets close. If you “transition” (aka “upgrade”), your mutual fund shares will be moved in-kind and your purchase history will be transferred too. But if you “exchange”, you will be selling in the mutual fund account (which would incur gains or losses) then buying in the brokerage account. So avoid the “exchange” option, unless you really want to start over in new funds, stocks, bonds, and ETFs. You would also have to move the cash value from the old mutual fund account to your new brokerage account.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by billg2100 »

I received this email and am looking to avoid the fees. If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by jebmke »

billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am I received this email and am looking to avoid the fees. If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
If you hold mutual funds in a brokerage account, these fees don't apply to you. These fees apply to mutual funds held in a mutual fund platform at Vanguard.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rkhusky »

billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am I received this email and am looking to avoid the fees. If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
You don’t have to sell your mutual funds, you have to convert from the old mutual fund platform to the new brokerage platform. You can hold mutual funds on each, but you can only hold ETF’s and stocks on the new brokerage platform.
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Duckie
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Duckie »

billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
There are two issues here:
  1. If you are on the mutual fund side of Vanguard and want to move to the brokerage side you don't sell. Vanguard will transfer the fund(s) "in kind" when they switch you over. Once completed you will own the same exact assets on the brokerage side.
  2. If you choose to convert VEMAX to VWO that is not a sale, that is a conversion and does not trigger a wash sale. However, if you decided for some reason to sell VEMAX and then purchased VWO (which is considered "substantially identical"), you would trigger a wash sale if:
    1. the VEMAX sale was in a taxable account,
    2. the sale resulted in a loss,
    3. and the VWO purchase was done in fewer than 30 days before or after the sale.
    But you're not going to sell VEMAX. You will either transfer it "in kind" or convert it.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am I received this email and am looking to avoid the fees. If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
You can hold mutual funds on the brokerage platform. If you have less than $1M of Vanguard assets, you will pay a single $20 fee per year if you want printed statements or $0 if you opt-in to electronic ones.

On the old platform, they have confusing terms.

Let's say you have an IRA there. This is what you and I would call an account. So far, no problem.

However, on the old platform, Vanguard refers to each mutual fund holding as an "account". So, in your IRA, if you have 4 mutual funds, you have four "accounts" inside of your IRA account. That's $80 in fees regardless of electronic delivery. They want people off the old platform.

On the new platform, your IRA is an account, as expected. However, when you move that 4 mutual fund holdings over, you no longer have 4 "accounts" inside of that IRA. You simply have the IRA. If you have less than $1M and want printed statements, you will pay a single $20 fee for your IRA.

Where it gets expensive fast, is that if you're on the old platform with a taxable account, an IRA, a Roth IRA, and and inherited IRA, you have four accounts by our definition. But each mutual fund in each of those 4 accounts will have a $20 fee. E.g., if you have 4 mutual funds in taxable, IRA, Roth IRA, and the inherited IRA, you have 16 "accounts" that each will incur a $20 fee.

If you move all of those over to brokerage accounts, you will pay $80 in fees only if you want to get printed statements and have less than $1M.

The important thing is that you can move your holdings as is if you want to stay with Vanguard.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by LadyGeek »

I should mention that just because the name "Vanguard" is on the fund, it doesn't have to be held at Vanguard. That's what a brokerage does - hold any fund from anywhere. I'm holding my Vanguard funds at Fidelity, for example.

If you want to move out of Vanguard, then contact Fidelity, Schwab, etc. and tell them what you want to do. The funds can be transferred "in-kind" so there are no concerns whatsoever with taxes, i.e. capital gains. The funds are moved, not sold.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by rossington »

Duckie wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:42 pm
billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
There are two issues here:
If you choose to convert VEMAX to VWO that is not a sale, that is a conversion...
I've never seen a "conversion" option that would avert a wash sale.
Only "Buy or Sell" or "Exchange Between Vanguard Funds" (in this option you are still selling and buying and it is a taxable event too).
Can you clarify?
Thanks.
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BigJohn
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by BigJohn »

rossington wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:13 am
Duckie wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:42 pm
billg2100 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:32 am If I sell my mutual funds and re-buy the identical ETF inside my brokerage account, will I run foul of the wash sale rule? For example converting from VEMAX to VWO. I'm assuming I would need to wait 31 days between sell and buy orders since they are nearly identical.
There are two issues here:
If you choose to convert VEMAX to VWO that is not a sale, that is a conversion...
I've never seen a "conversion" option that would avert a wash sale.
Only "Buy or Sell" or "Exchange Between Vanguard Funds" (in this option you are still selling and buying and it is a taxable event too).
Can you clarify?
Thanks.
Can't be done online. If you want to convert to ETFs you need to call.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by LadyGeek »

Yes, you need to call. I converted my mutual funds to ETFs before I moved everything from Vanguard. From: Re: Vanguard Website
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:11 am Tip: To get to the right person, say "stock trade" when the bot asks what you're calling about. You need the trading reps. The first rep I spoke with said that my request was an "advanced trade" and needed escalation. I accidentally got cut-off after I was finished speaking with a second rep. Getting to the trade rep was the right person when I called back.
Also, they won't do the conversion if the fund is in the middle of distributions. (What I did.) They'll delay the conversion until the distributions are completed. However, that's on their end. You only need to call them once.

Update: Clarified the move was from Vanguard.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

It should be noted that this conversion from mutual funds to ETFs is not even a possibility until you are on the brokerage platform.
Last edited by Cheez-It Guy on Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ I think you mean "until you are on the brokerage platform". Good point. I was already on the brokerage platform when this was done.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:39 am ^^^ I think you mean "until you are on the brokerage platform". Good point. I was already on the brokerage platform when this was done.
Yes, I did. Phone post fail. Thank you. Edited.

But in your previous post, I think you meant when you moved FROM Vanguard, not when you moved TO Vanguard.

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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by LadyGeek »

Likewise, I have edited my post. In this case, two wrongs do make one right. :)
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by cib1003 »

It's been a crazy month and this hasn't been a priority. Just one fund that with recent declines is now below the minimum investment threshold. We don't need another brokerage account, and even if I did the transition I wonder if it would go through fast enough.

So the question is whether the fee will result in liquidation of the fund and them mailing a check. If so, I'd rather sell it today so it can be quickly reinvested elsewhere (presumably after the fee if settlement takes till next week). Thoughts? Thanks!
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by exodusNH »

cib1003 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:27 pm It's been a crazy month and this hasn't been a priority. Just one fund that with recent declines is now below the minimum investment threshold. We don't need another brokerage account, and even if I did the transition I wonder if it would go through fast enough.

So the question is whether the fee will result in liquidation of the fund and them mailing a check. If so, I'd rather sell it today so it can be quickly reinvested elsewhere (presumably after the fee if settlement takes till next week). Thoughts? Thanks!
Vanguard doesn't immediately kick you out of a fund if it drops below the minimum.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by cib1003 »

As I understood it they won't close the position due to market gyrations, but hopefully that also applies to market moves plus fees. I'm guessing it's been just below minimum for over a month.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

Ok my transition is done, checked everythign and they all look good, everything moved over.

However in my profile account settings, in alerts and in "account activity and appointment alerts",on that page there is nothing, not even "no activity to list" or such, is it the same for you guys?
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by cib1003 »

BTW, do they even notify before closing a position and sending the proceeds (especially in a Roth)? I recall a fund company a long time ago that would give the opportunity to top it back up before selling.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by money2churn »

Did the transition two days ago(seems to have been successful) and yet I still get the "Transition your account today" nag popups when logging in. :annoyed
Investment101
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts

Post by Investment101 »

So after transition you can buy funds from other companies in the brokerage account right? What non vanguard funds do you guys got or recommend, I want to take a look, any non-vanguard funds that VTSAX and VTIAX don't got or can add value? Thanks
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