New fee for Vanguard mutual [and brokerage accounts - July 2023 updates]
Re: Brokerage Fee now $25 per account if < 5 million?
Eventually the free will cost something. It makes sense that servicing accounts costs money. Accounts that trade create a margin spread. Stay the course does not. Remember that Vanguard mutual fund holders own the company.
Still not sure if ETF holders own the company. Maybe someone can enlighten me please.
Still not sure if ETF holders own the company. Maybe someone can enlighten me please.
“Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.” Lan Peters
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Re: Brokerage Fee now $25 per account if < 5 million?
This seems like a reasonable fee. It must cost Vanguard at least $1-2 a month to send a client paper statements, and the aggregate cost must be increasing each year as more people elect paperless statements and postage continues to go up.
Re: Brokerage Fee now $25 per account if < 5 million?
The mutual funds and ETFs own Vanguard. You don't. You just own a mutual fund or ETF.Honu wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:03 pm Eventually the free will cost something. It makes sense that servicing accounts costs money. Accounts that trade create a margin spread. Stay the course does not. Remember that Vanguard mutual fund holders own the company.
Still not sure if ETF holders own the company. Maybe someone can enlighten me please.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts
I merged trailmk's thread into the ongoing discussion.
(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)
(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to this thread.)
- Harry Livermore
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts
I can only vote with my wallet.Running Bum wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:24 pm
Being passive aggressive against a corporation, while increasing your chances of identity theft from stolen mail. That'll show 'em. Smart move, folks.Harry Livermore wrote: I'm gonna pay it and continue receiving my paper statements. While I'm at it, I might request paper prospectuses for a few dozen funds I'm "interested" in, every quarter. I want to get my $25 worth.
My mail arrives at a PO box.
You have a great day sir. Enjoy your electronic statements.
Cheers
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I asked Vanguard this question yesterday through the chat, but their answer seemed incorrect so when I followed up more specifically, they said I needed to call a representative. Its clear that the rep either didn't understand the question or did not have the answer. I looked online and reviewed the prospectus and although the information on who gets charged the fee and exemptions is clear, I could not find any specific information on the mechanics of the application of the fees. So for those of you that have been charged the account fees previously:
For a SpecID taxable MF account, how does Vanguard determine which specific shares/lots to sell to pay the new-to-us account fee? Is this a taxable event? I assume so.
My concern is that we have auto-invested into this account from the 1990s continuously, so we have significant non-covered share lots, some with purchase prices below $20 per share. Since we have to track the non-covered shares lots, it seems that Vanguard would need to sell only covered shares in a SpecID account, most likely Last-in First-out to limit the tax implications. But I don't see online where I can direct this. The prosectus just says that they sell shares. Does anyone have experience with how Vanguard handles fees on SpecID taxable accounts?
(BTW - the answer the Vanguard rep gave me was that the fee would be charged to the brokerage cash account. There is not a cash account associated with a MF account so this is incorrect. We also do not have a taxable brokerage account, so a taxable cash account does not exist. I believe she was likely seeing the cash account in my Rollover TIRA brokerage account. It seems like paying a taxable account fee from a TIRA rollover brokerage cash account would not be appropriate)
EDIT: I suppose if they take it out of the dividend distribution that would avoid selling shares and avoid the potential wash sale with the auto-investment.
For a SpecID taxable MF account, how does Vanguard determine which specific shares/lots to sell to pay the new-to-us account fee? Is this a taxable event? I assume so.
My concern is that we have auto-invested into this account from the 1990s continuously, so we have significant non-covered share lots, some with purchase prices below $20 per share. Since we have to track the non-covered shares lots, it seems that Vanguard would need to sell only covered shares in a SpecID account, most likely Last-in First-out to limit the tax implications. But I don't see online where I can direct this. The prosectus just says that they sell shares. Does anyone have experience with how Vanguard handles fees on SpecID taxable accounts?
(BTW - the answer the Vanguard rep gave me was that the fee would be charged to the brokerage cash account. There is not a cash account associated with a MF account so this is incorrect. We also do not have a taxable brokerage account, so a taxable cash account does not exist. I believe she was likely seeing the cash account in my Rollover TIRA brokerage account. It seems like paying a taxable account fee from a TIRA rollover brokerage cash account would not be appropriate)
EDIT: I suppose if they take it out of the dividend distribution that would avoid selling shares and avoid the potential wash sale with the auto-investment.
Last edited by Nver2Late on Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Better is the enemy of good." Good is good.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
From personal experience, I have a taxable MF-only account dating from 2010 with non-covered shares, with the cost basis method set to average. That's the method Vanguard used last September when they sold $20 from each of my funds, and it was a taxable event, or rather five separate taxable events, including a small loss on VTIAX. Definitely not from the nonexistent settlement account. I don't know what they would do for SpecID, there isn't any obviously right choice.Nver2Late wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:15 am My concern is that we have auto-invested into this account from the 1990s continuously, so we have significant non-covered share lots, some with purchase prices below $20 per share. Since we have to track the non-covered shares lots, it seems that Vanguard would need to sell only covered shares in a SpecID account, most likely Last-in First-out to limit the tax implications. But I don't see online where I can direct this. The prosectus just says that they sell shares. Does anyone have experience with how Vanguard handles fees on SpecID taxable accounts?
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts
I just called Vanguard to inquire about a custodial IRA for my younger son.Weathering wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:19 pm Does anyone else have custodial Roth IRA accounts that cannot be changed to eDelivery of statements?
I have a custodial Roth IRA account for my 19-year-old. I had planned to wait until he is 21 years old to have him manage it, but today Vanguard said it could not be changed to eDelivery of statements. Therefore, the account will be charged the annual $25 fee until my son sets up a Vanguard account and transfers the custodial account into his new account (at which time he can select eDelivery of statements to stop the annual fee).
To my surprise, they picked up immediately and confirmed that because a custodial account can't opt out of paper statements and confirmations, it will not be subject to a $25 annual fee.
I hope they are correct ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Thanks for the confirmation. Maybe with the market going up I'll get lucky and avoid the wash sale conflict with the auto-invest.telemark wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:32 pmFrom personal experience, I have a taxable MF-only account dating from 2010 with non-covered shares, with the cost basis method set to average. That's the method Vanguard used last September when they sold $20 from each of my funds, and it was a taxable event, or rather five separate taxable events, including a small loss on VTIAX. Definitely not from the nonexistent settlement account. I don't know what they would do for SpecID, there isn't any obviously right choice.Nver2Late wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:15 am My concern is that we have auto-invested into this account from the 1990s continuously, so we have significant non-covered share lots, some with purchase prices below $20 per share. Since we have to track the non-covered shares lots, it seems that Vanguard would need to sell only covered shares in a SpecID account, most likely Last-in First-out to limit the tax implications. But I don't see online where I can direct this. The prosectus just says that they sell shares. Does anyone have experience with how Vanguard handles fees on SpecID taxable accounts?
"Better is the enemy of good." Good is good.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Perhaps I’m mistaken, but didn’t Vanguard use the $25 per fund charge for a mutual fund platform account as a stick to get people to convert to the brokerage platform?
And now Vanguard is instituting a $25 fee on the brokerage platform as well unless you sign up for e-delivery or have $5 million?
Sure seems like Vanguard is using a lot of sticks and not very many carrots these days.
And now Vanguard is instituting a $25 fee on the brokerage platform as well unless you sign up for e-delivery or have $5 million?
Sure seems like Vanguard is using a lot of sticks and not very many carrots these days.
Most experiences are better imagined.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
It was $20 per mutual fund last year, and $20 flat for the brokerage account if you didn't opt for e-delivery or have over $1 million in qualifying assets.Random Poster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:01 pm Perhaps I’m mistaken, but didn’t Vanguard use the $25 per fund charge for a mutual fund platform account as a stick to get people to convert to the brokerage platform?
And now Vanguard is instituting a $25 fee on the brokerage platform as well unless you sign up for e-delivery or have $5 million?
Sure seems like Vanguard is using a lot of sticks and not very many carrots these days.
Now they are raising it to $25 per account and increasing the qualifying assets exclusion to $5 million.
It's actually pretty egalitarian. I like the fact that just a normal millionaire can't escape the fees someone with more meager assets has to pay. It's a passive-aggressive slap to inflated egos and self-importance. You're not too big to help everyone reduce operating costs. Unless you have over $5 million. Then you're still too big to help -- FOR NOW!
Carrots don't work. Carrots and niceties have been on offer for over a decade and here we still are. Time for an increasingly larger stick.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
What "carrot" or "niceties" to convert account type or go paperless has ever been offered by Vanguard?Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:15 pm Carrots don't work. Carrots and niceties have been on offer for over a decade and here we still are.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
The mutual fund platform fee was $20 per mutual fund per account. If you had VTSAX in an IRA, rIRA, and taxable, you'd pay $60.Random Poster wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:01 pm Perhaps I’m mistaken, but didn’t Vanguard use the $25 per fund charge for a mutual fund platform account as a stick to get people to convert to the brokerage platform?
And now Vanguard is instituting a $25 fee on the brokerage platform as well unless you sign up for e-delivery or have $5 million?
Sure seems like Vanguard is using a lot of sticks and not very many carrots these days.
The brokerage platform has always had a $20 (now $25) fee unless you had enough assets or got electronic delivery.
The big change is that they've upped the asset requirement to $5M from $1M.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Carrots might be a stretch wrapped up in marketing speak. Niceties I consider adequately covered by polite requests and nudges, not physical items. Why should hold-outs expect some reward for intransigence?jeffyscott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:41 pmWhat "carrot" or "niceties" to convert account type or go paperless has ever been offered by Vanguard?Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:15 pm Carrots don't work. Carrots and niceties have been on offer for over a decade and here we still are.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
^ Didn't say they should, I was merely baffled by your claims, because all I had ever experienced was obnoxious and annoying harassment.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
They really wanted you to do it! But you really didn't want to. Unstoppable force meets immovable object. Immovable object gets annoyed and moves to Schwab.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
In order for me to "upgrade", I have to delete my weekly recurring automatic withdrawal from Vanguard to my bank account. I can resume auto withdrawals after upgrading, to my understanding. However, weekly automatic withdrawals are not available any longer, and I will have to move to a monthly frequency. I like having money deposited into my bank account on a weekly basis and do not wish to lose this functionality.
It may be that I need to terminate direct deposits from my employer and set those up, but that's a pain.
Bottom line is that I am seriously thinking about upgrading to Fidelity rather than trying to "upgrade" my Vanguard account.
It may be that I need to terminate direct deposits from my employer and set those up, but that's a pain.
Bottom line is that I am seriously thinking about upgrading to Fidelity rather than trying to "upgrade" my Vanguard account.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Vanguard today is no longer the Vanguard of Mr. Bogle. It has become a greedy BIG company whose main purpose is to squeeze more money out of small investors and the definition of small investors has now been redefined by Vanguard CEO as those with less than $5 million with Vanguard.
There are other brokerages that provide better services at comparable costs. Fidelity and Schwab, here we come.
There are other brokerages that provide better services at comparable costs. Fidelity and Schwab, here we come.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
On the positive side Vanguard doing its bit to reduce global warming for brokerage accounts - "go paperless else pay up"
Never paid any fees so far and I don't even have $5mil
Never paid any fees so far and I don't even have $5mil
Last edited by ebeb on Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
80% VOO | 20% BND+TBILL+CASH | Don't believe Nobody because Nobody knows nothin' - Anon
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
$25 fee for each Vanguard mutual fund. They will waive the fee if you have at least $5 million in qualifying Vanguard assets.
In other words, e-delivery won’t get you out of the fees. So, you can either bite the bullet or walk with your feet.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Maybe you can set up 4 monthly withdrawals 1 week out of phase with one another.miamivice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:45 pm In order for me to "upgrade", I have to delete my weekly recurring automatic withdrawal from Vanguard to my bank account. I can resume auto withdrawals after upgrading, to my understanding. However, weekly automatic withdrawals are not available any longer, and I will have to move to a monthly frequency. I like having money deposited into my bank account on a weekly basis and do not wish to lose this functionality.
It may be that I need to terminate direct deposits from my employer and set those up, but that's a pain.
Bottom line is that I am seriously thinking about upgrading to Fidelity rather than trying to "upgrade" my Vanguard account.
Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
[Topic merged here - mod mkc]
(EDIT: formatting) I received an email about this yesterday, and confirmed it on the Vanguard website today.
(EDIT: formatting) I received an email about this yesterday, and confirmed it on the Vanguard website today.
If I’m reading it correctly, it appears the fee can be avoided if electronic delivery of all documents is selected. This would make sense to me. Can anyone confirm my understanding?Vanguard Brokerage Services charges a $25 annual account service fee. We don't charge the fee to any of the following:
- Clients who have an organization or a trust account registered under an employee identification number (EIN).
- Brokerage clients who’ve elected e-delivery of statements and the annual privacy policy notice; confirmations; reports, prospectuses, and proxy materials; and notices, amendments, and other important account updates.
- Clients enrolled in an advisory program serviced by an affiliate of Vanguard.
- Clients with at least $5 million in qualifying Vanguard assets.
Last edited by Twink on Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Are we still talking about old mutual fund accounts? Because the e-delivery WILL get you out of the fees at any asset level on the brokerage platform. If you're getting mad enough to leave, where are you going to go to retain a mutual fund only account for an extended period of time?
"I didn't want to convert to a brokerage account at Vanguard, so I moved to a brokerage account at Fidelity or Schwab"?
Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
No!
You must have at least $5 mil in eligible VG funds in order to avoid the fee. You are a small fish if you don’t have st least $5 mil with them.
You must have at least $5 mil in eligible VG funds in order to avoid the fee. You are a small fish if you don’t have st least $5 mil with them.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Weekly automatic withdrawals are not available on the brokerage platform.miamivice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:45 pm In order for me to "upgrade", I have to delete my weekly recurring automatic withdrawal from Vanguard to my bank account. I can resume auto withdrawals after upgrading, to my understanding. However, weekly automatic withdrawals are not available any longer, and I will have to move to a monthly frequency. I like having money deposited into my bank account on a weekly basis and do not wish to lose this functionality.
However, it appears you can set up multiple automatic withdrawal schedules. You could, for example, set up four withdrawal schedules, one to perform the withdrawal on the 7th, one on the 14th, one of the 21st, and one on the 28th of each month. Giving you 48 withdrawals per year rather than 52 or 53. I suppose you could throw in a fifth schedule for example withdrawing on the first day of each quarter, giving you 52 withdrawals per year. However not the same day of the week each week.
I can report the brokerage platform automatic withdrawal function works smoothly. In my case the funds are available in my checking account the next day. And the function allows you to skip scheduled withdrawals (once or every year).
Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
"If you’re the primary account owner, you can eliminate the fee on brokerage accounts by signing up for e-delivery of statements and the annual privacy policy notice; confirmations; reports, prospectuses, and proxy materials; and notices, amendments, and other important account updates."
I don't pay a fee and I don't have $5 million. It sounds like you are getting paper statements. That costs them (and as a result, us) money not to mention costs the tax payer money since the mail is subsidized, and is bad for the environment since it wastes paper and gas.
I don't pay a fee and I don't have $5 million. It sounds like you are getting paper statements. That costs them (and as a result, us) money not to mention costs the tax payer money since the mail is subsidized, and is bad for the environment since it wastes paper and gas.
70% Global Stocks / 30% Bonds
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Directly from VG:Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:25 pmAre we still talking about old mutual fund accounts? Because the e-delivery WILL get you out of the fees at any asset level on the brokerage platform. If you're getting mad enough to leave, where are you going to go to retain a mutual fund only account for an extended period of time?
"I didn't want to convert to a brokerage account at Vanguard, so I moved to a brokerage account at Fidelity or Schwab"?
“ Mutual fund-only accounts:
$25 for each Vanguard mutual fund. We'll waive the fee if you have at least $5 million in qualifying Vanguard assets.”
https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees
Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
I am not receiving paper statements - I turned on automatic electronic delivery for all documents when I set up the accounts. I just went in and checked, and that is still the case. It made me wonder if I missed something somewhere.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
OK. It's pretty hard to keep up with who is still on mutual fund only accounts at this point. The way to avoid the fee is to switch to a brokerage account with e-delivery.
There still seems to be a frequent misunderstanding among some who may not have paid much attention to this topic over the years that a brokerage account at Vanguard automatically means ETFs, and it doesn't. I have almost exclusively Vanguard mutual funds in a modern Vanguard Brokerage account. I have never paid any fees, and I don't have $5 million. The brokerage account does not charge per mutual fund. Only $25 total in the coming year, avoidable at any asset level through e-delivery.
There still seems to be a frequent misunderstanding among some who may not have paid much attention to this topic over the years that a brokerage account at Vanguard automatically means ETFs, and it doesn't. I have almost exclusively Vanguard mutual funds in a modern Vanguard Brokerage account. I have never paid any fees, and I don't have $5 million. The brokerage account does not charge per mutual fund. Only $25 total in the coming year, avoidable at any asset level through e-delivery.
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Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
Hey, I know you feel strongly, but this is not correct for brokerage accounts.
OP, your understanding is correct. E-delivery on a brokerage account avoids the fee at any asset level.
The annual fee on brokerage accounts has been around for a long time, always avoidable through e-delivery. What is changing this year is the amount from $20 to $25 and the asset-based exemption for those who demand paper statements and still want to avoid the fee -- increasing from $1 million to $5 million in qualifying assets.
Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
Very helpful explanation, thank you!The annual fee on brokerage accounts has been around for a long time, always avoidable through e-delivery. What is changing this year is the amount from $20 to $25 and the asset-based exemption for those who demand paper statements and still want to avoid the fee -- increasing from $1 million to $5 million in qualifying assets.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I just made the decision (and requisite phone call) to upgrade to Fidelity. Soon, my Vanguard account will simply be a memory.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I merged twink's topic into this existing one. Thank you to the member who reported it and explained what was wrong. mod mkc
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I’m not saying you shouldn’t consider all options for where to keep your money, but if you’re inclined to keep it at Vanguard, to accomplish automatic weekly withdrawals, you could create 4 monthly withdrawals spaced a week apart. A one-time annoyance but a solvable problem.miamivice wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:45 pm In order for me to "upgrade", I have to delete my weekly recurring automatic withdrawal from Vanguard to my bank account. I can resume auto withdrawals after upgrading, to my understanding. However, weekly automatic withdrawals are not available any longer, and I will have to move to a monthly frequency. I like having money deposited into my bank account on a weekly basis and do not wish to lose this functionality.
It may be that I need to terminate direct deposits from my employer and set those up, but that's a pain.
Bottom line is that I am seriously thinking about upgrading to Fidelity rather than trying to "upgrade" my Vanguard account.
Steve
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
And yet someone will move to another brokerage over this nothing burger… oh, waitCheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:34 pm OK. It's pretty hard to keep up with who is still on mutual fund only accounts at this point. The way to avoid the fee is to switch to a brokerage account with e-delivery.
There still seems to be a frequent misunderstanding among some who may not have paid much attention to this topic over the years that a brokerage account at Vanguard automatically means ETFs, and it doesn't. I have almost exclusively Vanguard mutual funds in a modern Vanguard Brokerage account. I have never paid any fees, and I don't have $5 million. The brokerage account does not charge per mutual fund. Only $25 total in the coming year, avoidable at any asset level through e-delivery.
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
More likely it's the straw that broke the camel's back. I've had a few sketchy things happen that had me considering a move, and one more thing in that time might have been enough. These are things that had me questioning whether VG took my account security and integrity seriously:
- Receiving someone else's statement in with my quarterly statement, back when I had them mailed
- Receiving my statement with one account showing a totally different address. Different state even. Never got an explanation on this.
- My year end statement showing something like $1.12 in an account that didn't show up online. I emailed VG and asked,and they said to ignore it,that this account didn't exist. And a week later I see a transfer in of $1.12 to my account. I think this was a remnant from when I was converted to a brokerage account, but they should have been able to tell me consistently all the accounts I have. Don't make me guess about my accounts and money.
If a new fee had been piled on me shortly after one of these events I probably would've said F it, and left. I did convert my mutual funds to ETFs already to make it easier if I do.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Do Fidelity, or Charles Schwab charge fees on Vanguard funds trading ?
Time to leave. Vanguard's website sucks anyway.
I've searched for outgoing transfer fees, but could not find anything.
Time to leave. Vanguard's website sucks anyway.
I've searched for outgoing transfer fees, but could not find anything.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Because there are material reasons not to change in some limited cases. Comes up every time... It's not always "intransigence".Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:39 pmCarrots might be a stretch wrapped up in marketing speak. Niceties I consider adequately covered by polite requests and nudges, not physical items. Why should hold-outs expect some reward for intransigence?jeffyscott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:41 pmWhat "carrot" or "niceties" to convert account type or go paperless has ever been offered by Vanguard?Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:15 pm Carrots don't work. Carrots and niceties have been on offer for over a decade and here we still are.
|
Rob |
Its a dangerous business going out your front door. - J.R.R.Tolkien
Re: Vanguard charging $25 annual account service fee
You're wrong.
If you're on the brokerage platform and get electronic delivery, the fee is waived.
If you're on the mutual fund platform, which no one has been able to open new for about a decade, there are fees. That platform is ancient; Vanguard is desperate to decommission it, but can't until everyone leaves.
I'm glad they're charging $25 for people who want paper statements. I am certain that $25 doesn't even cover the cost of postage, let alone the processing and material costs.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Do you have a mutual fund only account? When did you create you account?HueyLD wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:31 pmDirectly from VG:Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:25 pmAre we still talking about old mutual fund accounts? Because the e-delivery WILL get you out of the fees at any asset level on the brokerage platform. If you're getting mad enough to leave, where are you going to go to retain a mutual fund only account for an extended period of time?
"I didn't want to convert to a brokerage account at Vanguard, so I moved to a brokerage account at Fidelity or Schwab"?
“ Mutual fund-only accounts:
$25 for each Vanguard mutual fund. We'll waive the fee if you have at least $5 million in qualifying Vanguard assets.”
https://investor.vanguard.com/client-be ... count-fees
It absolutely does not apply to brokerage accounts, in which you can hold Vanguard's mutual funds.
I have nowhere near $1m in my brokerage account. I have never paid a fee.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
That happened to me when I was with Schwab except it didn't also include mine; I ended up leaving them. The worse case like this I've seen was a TaxAide client of mine who brought in a brokerage statement at tax time that had all the name and address correct (it was "her statement") but the assets were not hers. Merrill Lynch.Running Bum wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:04 pm Receiving someone else's statement in with my quarterly statement, back when I had them mailed
Transaction errors and security issues are the things I watch for the most. Web site glitches can be irritating but I don't use it much so I grind through it. Fortunately I have not had transaction or security problems with Vanguard.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Vanguard does not charge an outgoing transfer fee. At least not yet anyway, but who knows what they have planned given this current fee change.
Schwab does not charge to sell a Vanguard mutual fund, but may charge to buy new/additional shares of one, unless you qualify for a fee waiver. Not sure what the required amount of assets is to get such a waiver, but bringing over $4 million worked for me. And Schwab matched a competitor’s asset transfer bonus offer, so in effect they paid me to come over.
Don’t know anything about Fidelity and how they handle Vanguard funds.
Regarding Schwab, they are okay, but I really miss Vanguard’s old mutual fund platform. I miss the old Vanguard, to be honest, but oh well. At Schwab, I can’t see the daily interest accruals for the bond funds, whereas that is something that Vanguard still offers and I do find useful.
I have heard that selling mutual fund shares at Schwab can be a hassle, if you want to use specific share identification. I haven’t sold anything at Schwab yet, so I can’t give any personal insight into that process.
Most experiences are better imagined.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Why are you worried about outgoing fees, unless you’re on the fence?
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Thanks for sharing. I have a feeling posters who actually do leave for other firms would not come back here to report on all the experiences they have in those greener pastures.jebmke wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:22 amThat happened to me when I was with Schwab except it didn't also include mine; I ended up leaving them. The worse case like this I've seen was a TaxAide client of mine who brought in a brokerage statement at tax time that had all the name and address correct (it was "her statement") but the assets were not hers. Merrill Lynch.Running Bum wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:04 pm Receiving someone else's statement in with my quarterly statement, back when I had them mailed
Transaction errors and security issues are the things I watch for the most. Web site glitches can be irritating but I don't use it much so I grind through it. Fortunately I have not had transaction or security problems with Vanguard.
- jeffyscott
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Just as at Schwab, there is a transaction fee to buy Vanguard mutual funds at Fidelity, but not to sell. They do not give waivers, at least I have never heard of anyone getting one. Of course, no transaction fee at either for ETFs. And they both have their own index mutual funds, generally with ERs that are lower than Vanguard.Random Poster wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:35 amVanguard does not charge an outgoing transfer fee. At least not yet anyway, but who knows what they have planned given this current fee change.
Schwab does not charge to sell a Vanguard mutual fund, but may charge to buy new/additional shares of one, unless you qualify for a fee waiver. Not sure what the required amount of assets is to get such a waiver, but bringing over $4 million worked for me. And Schwab matched a competitor’s asset transfer bonus offer, so in effect they paid me to come over.
Don’t know anything about Fidelity and how they handle Vanguard funds.
FWIW, Etrade has no transaction fees for any mutual funds. I think Vanguard funds are NTF at Chase also.
Note that for managed funds, Admiral shares are available only at Vanguard. At any other brokerage, you may be able to transfer those holdings in, but can not add to them.
If you select "tax lot optimizer", it may address this deficiency for most transactions.I have heard that selling mutual fund shares at Schwab can be a hassle, if you want to use specific share identification. I haven’t sold anything at Schwab yet, so I can’t give any personal insight into that process.
When I transferred, my cost basis for taxable was converted to average, the taxable account was tiny (about $6K) and there were only two lots with not much difference in cost, so I did not bother with trying to get them to switch that back for the existing shares. I had to send (upload) a paper form to change the cost basis method for future purchases and sales, another small annoyance. But at least they did provide some "carrots" for transferring in, over a few years of consolidating they have paid us over $6K in bonuses. I have, in turn, voluntarily rewarded them by going paperless, except for tax forms, even though paper statements are free for everyone there.
- jeffyscott
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I was able to compare how Vanguard and Schwab each dealt with a similar issue here:
viewtopic.php?p=6870562#p6870562
One other mildly annoying thing at Schwab, that I neglected to mention there, is the miniscule interest rate on settlement account cash.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
It would seem that one could easily determine if the $25 fee is compensated by the difference for a given average balance in settlement. Then the comparison comes down to non-fee related issues/criteria which is an entirely different thread.jeffyscott wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:35 am One other mildly annoying thing at Schwab, that I neglected to mention there, is the miniscule interest rate on settlement account cash.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
- Cheez-It Guy
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
And the minority of people who have some applicable exception usually skew the discussion to being all about their edge case (which then helps give cover to people to whom such edge cases don't apply). That's not to discount those valid concerns, but ideally the discussions should not be intermixed [unnecessary comment deleted - mod mkc].rob wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:00 amBecause there are material reasons not to change in some limited cases. Comes up every time... It's not always "intransigence".Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:39 pmCarrots might be a stretch wrapped up in marketing speak. Niceties I consider adequately covered by polite requests and nudges, not physical items. Why should hold-outs expect some reward for intransigence?jeffyscott wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:41 pmWhat "carrot" or "niceties" to convert account type or go paperless has ever been offered by Vanguard?Cheez-It Guy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:15 pm Carrots don't work. Carrots and niceties have been on offer for over a decade and here we still are.
- jeffyscott
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Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
Maybe, but (assuming one has a brokerage account) it's only pertinent if one cares about getting paper statements. To me it's more just the hassle factor of moving cash to other options, such as SWVXX, buying individual treasuries, and/or substituting something like short term bond index for actual cash.jebmke wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:51 amIt would seem that one could easily determine if the $25 fee is compensated by the difference for a given average balance in settlement. Then the comparison comes down to non-fee related issues/criteria which is an entirely different thread.jeffyscott wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:35 am One other mildly annoying thing at Schwab, that I neglected to mention there, is the miniscule interest rate on settlement account cash.
My balance is almost always about $0, currently 5 cents across all accounts. I do have $5-6K in SWVXX, which yields a little less than VMFXX, while also having a bit more risk. I guess that's costing me about $7 per year, based on the current yields.
Re: New fee for Vanguard mutual accounts [June 2023 update]
I switched most of my mutual funds to ETF shares and transferred them to Schwab this week. There were no outgoing transfer fees. I maintain two brokerage accounts just to have access to some money in the event of either a personal password hack or some corporate data breach, but now my assets are 15% Vanguard, whereas on 12/31/2022 they were over 70% Vanguard. All our IRA/RIRA accounts went in January, and much of our taxable account followed last week. I’m no longer a Flagship customer, boo-hoo. My investments themselves are still 80% Vanguard index funds, and will remain so.
Schwab blows Vanguard out of the water for service. The app and web site are much better. I’ve had one Schwab rep in the time I’ve had four Flagship reps. The Vanguard staff don’t know anything about me, and they say “no” to me routinely when I ask for help with a back-office function. The last straw for me was the end of May, when they cut my online view-only access to my son’s irrevocable trust, which my wife and I are Grantors for, but not Trustees (my attorney’s advice.) I’ve had statements or online views of the account for 23 years, and now the Flagship rep tells me that was a mistake, I should not have been able to do that. Could he contact the Trustee for permission? Oh no, not allowed to do that for privacy reasons.
At Schwab, you can grant anyone who has a Schwab login various levels of access to your account, without even speaking to your rep. On top of everything, my Schwab rep got me a fat transfer bonus for shifting some assets there.
Vanguard Marketing Corporation is distinct from VGI. The latter pays the former to provide account service. You can invest in VGI-managed funds with a different interface provider, and most others are better than VMC.
IMO, Vanguard Marketing Corporation is like Southwest Airlines, in the sense that both have overplayed the “low-cost” business model to the point where the underinvestment in technology and infrastructure have begun to impact their ability to execute their core competencies.