Banking in the US when outside of the US?
-
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:42 pm
Banking in the US when outside of the US?
I am about to embark on some extended travel outside of the US. If I happen to find a spot that feels right for me, I may end up moving there, do the whole expat thing.
Can I still maintain my banking and brokerage ties in the US while living abroad?
Specifically I currently do business with Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard and a couple of credit unions (as well as other credit card issuing banks) I could pare that list down if I absolutely had to, but prefer not to, if I don't have to.
I would only return to the US once or twice a year for visits.
Can any expats here comment on their experiences with this issue? THANKS
Can I still maintain my banking and brokerage ties in the US while living abroad?
Specifically I currently do business with Schwab, Fidelity, Vanguard and a couple of credit unions (as well as other credit card issuing banks) I could pare that list down if I absolutely had to, but prefer not to, if I don't have to.
I would only return to the US once or twice a year for visits.
Can any expats here comment on their experiences with this issue? THANKS
-
- Posts: 3579
- Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 pm
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Try the search box. There have been many discussions and there is a wiki on investing.
-
- Moderator
- Posts: 961
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:49 pm
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
The short version is keep an US address on file with them and don’t tell them you are not in the US. Also get a google voice number for 2FA.
-
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:06 pm
- Location: NYC
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
In general, US banks and brokerages will either freeze or close out your account if they get wind that you no longer reside in the US. There are some exceptions and some workarounds as follows:
1. open an account with a commercial mail receiving agent in a US state that does not have an income tax. I use https://app.sbimailservice.com/.
2. While you are still resident in the US change your registered address with your financial institutions to the CMRA address.
3. While still in the US, get a Google Voice account that will enable you to make and receive US calls on your cellphone. Importantly, you will also be able to receive SMS messages, such as the authentication codes sent by banks.
4. While still in the US open an account at State Department Federal Credit Union, sdfcu.org. They will actually open an account for a US expat, but it's a little easier to do while you are still stateside.
5. Interactive Brokers will also accept US citizen expats depending on what country you will be living in. They are not as desirable as other US brokers, but could be a fallback, if you were to get shutout of your regular broker.
6. Do not under any circumstance report your foreign address to any US institution unless compelled to.
7. Make sure you have an account at ssa.gov. The SSA is the only institution who needs to know your physical address.
8. Make sure you have an adequate number of US credit cards. Try to have a transaction on each card every month so they don't cancel you for inactivity.
It's worked for me these ten years and more.
1. open an account with a commercial mail receiving agent in a US state that does not have an income tax. I use https://app.sbimailservice.com/.
2. While you are still resident in the US change your registered address with your financial institutions to the CMRA address.
3. While still in the US, get a Google Voice account that will enable you to make and receive US calls on your cellphone. Importantly, you will also be able to receive SMS messages, such as the authentication codes sent by banks.
4. While still in the US open an account at State Department Federal Credit Union, sdfcu.org. They will actually open an account for a US expat, but it's a little easier to do while you are still stateside.
5. Interactive Brokers will also accept US citizen expats depending on what country you will be living in. They are not as desirable as other US brokers, but could be a fallback, if you were to get shutout of your regular broker.
6. Do not under any circumstance report your foreign address to any US institution unless compelled to.
7. Make sure you have an account at ssa.gov. The SSA is the only institution who needs to know your physical address.
8. Make sure you have an adequate number of US credit cards. Try to have a transaction on each card every month so they don't cancel you for inactivity.
It's worked for me these ten years and more.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Well yeah, sort of.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
Schwab's International account can be opened in some countries and not others. It depends on the country's restriction for their residents. If you have a Schwab account and you move someplace where they can't open an account for you, I don't know. Maybe they would let you keep your regular Schwab US account. It might depend on how long you have been with them. Interactive Brokers has a more inclusive country risk. Warning though, if you go to Europe, you can get an account but you can't buy anything because of EU rules. You need US domiciled funds for US tax purposes.
I suggest getting a US address - friend or relative and using that for your legal address at banks/brokerages etc. Maybe your DL too but watch out for State taxation rules.
Then get a mail forwarding service and use that address for your mailing address. This is convenient when a replacement card goes out and keeps your mail from bothering the people at the address you are using.
And get a cheap US VOIP number that has SMS. Not all institutions will send SMS to a VOIP number, so it's best to have a bank that offers a call or some other method as well. Some say Google Voice works, some don't. I've used voip.ms.
Finally, depending on your bank, you may need a VPN to access from overseas.
My bank (Wells Fargo) totally did not care if I was overseas (registered a foreign address with them) but then when needing a credit card, I did need to have a US legal address. I got frozen at Vanguard for trying to put a foreign mailing address while keeping a US legal address. Schwab international let me open a brokerage account and transfer from Vanguard, but then Schwab stopped letting me open new accounts because my country of residence apparantly started enforcing rules against residents opening accounts with foreign firms.
Some people report Vanguard knows they are overseas and are fine with it.
It's really easiest to use a relatives address and have your mail forwarded to where you are.
- anon_investor
- Posts: 15122
- Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Interesting, my friend had a Wells Fargo brokerage account that was frozen when they found out he moved abroad. He transferred it to Interactive Brokers and was back in business.typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 pm
My bank (Wells Fargo) totally did not care if I was overseas (registered a foreign address with them) but then when needing a credit card, I did need to have a US legal address. I got frozen at Vanguard for trying to put a foreign mailing address while keeping a US legal address. Schwab international let me open a brokerage account and transfer from Vanguard, but then Schwab stopped letting me open new accounts because my country of residence apparantly started enforcing rules against residents opening accounts with foreign firms.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
That will probably work with existing accounts, but it doesn't often work to open new accounts because they do a more thorough KYC check and the commercial mail service gets recognized as such and the reject it as a street address.cbeck wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:02 pm
1. open an account with a commercial mail receiving agent in a US state that does not have an income tax. I use https://app.sbimailservice.com/.
2. While you are still resident in the US change your registered address with your financial institutions to the CMRA address.
They wouldn't do one for me as an expat unless I went to a local branch which is out East someplace I think. So yeah, maybe do it stateside especially if you don't have a US address you can use.
Cbeck's list is pretty good!
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Yeah brokerage/credit card are slightly different than the bank, and I was a customer for decades so they knew me. And actually, I'd started using their brokerage under Private Client which means they were making 1%+ off me and willing to look the other way. But compliance enforcement is hit and miss. A real (not mailing service) US street address is always the surest. Anything after that and you can't really say for sure.anon_investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:08 pmInteresting, my friend had a Wells Fargo brokerage account that was frozen when they found out he moved abroad. He transferred it to Interactive Brokers and was back in business.typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 pm
My bank (Wells Fargo) totally did not care if I was overseas (registered a foreign address with them) but then when needing a credit card, I did need to have a US legal address. I got frozen at Vanguard for trying to put a foreign mailing address while keeping a US legal address. Schwab international let me open a brokerage account and transfer from Vanguard, but then Schwab stopped letting me open new accounts because my country of residence apparantly started enforcing rules against residents opening accounts with foreign firms.
- asset_chaos
- Posts: 2629
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:13 pm
- Location: Melbourne
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
I opened an SDFCU account while living abroad, 5 or 6 years ago---whenever Vanguard turned off their cash management account. I found it easy to do. SDFCU had everything set up online, didn't even have to call and talk with anyone. But while it was easy to open the account from outside the US, I agree that it's best to get everything set up and tested for usability before leaving the US.typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:10 pmThey wouldn't do one for me as an expat unless I went to a local branch which is out East someplace I think. So yeah, maybe do it stateside especially if you don't have a US address you can use.
Living outside the US I've also found having a Wise multicurrency account to be convenient for moving small-ish (thousands of dollars) amounts around for spending when travelling. Ease of use may depend on what countries you're travelling/living in.
Regards, |
|
Guy
-
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:42 pm
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
You can also call and ask, as a new customer, hypothetically, if you were to take an expat assignment in country y, would your account be restricted? Do so from a number that's not linked to your account, since 800 numbers get your phone # even if you've blocked caller ID.
The answer depends both on your bank/brokerage, and on which country you're going to be in. I recently called fidelity about New Zealand, and they had to look up their policy for that particular country, and said it's on their restricted list where you can maintain an account, but can't make new purchases. At Schwab, for New Zealand, the accounts would need to be closed. TIAA bank said "no problem," you just need a US address right now to open an account, and after moving overseas, you can just provide the overseas address, etc
Some financial institutions are more interested than others in doing the compliance work to support customers who've moved to country x, and it varies both on the institution, and the specific country.
The answer depends both on your bank/brokerage, and on which country you're going to be in. I recently called fidelity about New Zealand, and they had to look up their policy for that particular country, and said it's on their restricted list where you can maintain an account, but can't make new purchases. At Schwab, for New Zealand, the accounts would need to be closed. TIAA bank said "no problem," you just need a US address right now to open an account, and after moving overseas, you can just provide the overseas address, etc
Some financial institutions are more interested than others in doing the compliance work to support customers who've moved to country x, and it varies both on the institution, and the specific country.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
But, why?? If one retires overseas, does one really have to close and move retirement accounts, et al??
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
There is a good reason why US banks and brokers generally don't want expats as customers. Doing so would expose the institution to the regulatory requirements of the foreign jurisdiction since the institution would be doing business in the foreign country. Closing or freezing the accounts of US expats lends credibility to their stance of avoiding doing business outside the US.
I speak from experience.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
This is not a safe strategy since whatever the customer service rep tells you today could change tomorrow, after the next 9/11-type episode, for example. Much better to assume an adverse stance by nearly all US institutions and plan accordingly.aspiring_kiwi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:11 pm You can also call and ask, as a new customer, hypothetically, if you were to take an expat assignment in country y, would your account be restricted? Do so from a number that's not linked to your account, since 800 numbers get your phone # even if you've blocked caller ID.
The answer depends both on your bank/brokerage, and on which country you're going to be in. I recently called fidelity about New Zealand, and they had to look up their policy for that particular country, and said it's on their restricted list where you can maintain an account, but can't make new purchases. At Schwab, for New Zealand, the accounts would need to be closed. TIAA bank said "no problem," you just need a US address right now to open an account, and after moving overseas, you can just provide the overseas address, etc
Some financial institutions are more interested than others in doing the compliance work to support customers who've moved to country x, and it varies both on the institution, and the specific country.
-
- Posts: 2212
- Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:49 pm
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
background on why: https://brighttax.com/blog/breaking-fat ... ounts-too/
In summary, compliance w/ fatca, KYC, and AML regulations makes it more expensive and risky for US banks to serve US citizens who are overseas. As a result, many are firing their customers. As an expat, you can have trouble finding US financial firms willing to continue doing business with you. You can also have difficulty finding local (foreign) institutions willing to take on the hassle of a US customer. OP is right to scope this out, and it very much depends on which country they're going to.
Personally, for accounts of significant size, I wouldn't want to try and fly under the radar by "forgetting" to tell your bank that you've moved. If they freeze your account on suspicion that you've been lying to them, and hence might be involved in shady stuff, that seems like asking for trouble and headaches to regain possession of your accounts. Better to figure out who you should establish accounts with, before you move. The State Dept credit union (open to all), and Interactive Brokers are known for being expat-friendly.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Many countries bar foreign financial services to residents of their country. So a broker can be unable to open you an account.cbeck wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:26 pmThere is a good reason why US banks and brokers generally don't want expats as customers. Doing so would expose the institution to the regulatory requirements of the foreign jurisdiction since the institution would be doing business in the foreign country. Closing or freezing the accounts of US expats lends credibility to their stance of avoiding doing business outside the US.
I speak from experience.
It goes beyond that too. Mutual funds have distribution agreements that limit their distribution to residents. It has to do with the calculation of taxes and I am not sure why ETFs are different but they are.
So once you are overseas, brokers and mutual fund companies are not supposed to sell you mutual funds. It’s a hassle for them to do that systematically. Schwab International and Interactive Brokers do that though. Brokered CDs are similarly off limits.
It’s a compliance hassle for firms so they often avoid it.
Interactive Brokers is set up to operate in most places so they generally are an option.
Note though, your country of residence may have restrictions that apply to you. For instance, not even Interactive Brokers can sell US domiciled ETFs to EU residents (despite Americans needing them for tax reasons). Some people report they have been able to though, and some suggest IB compliance may stop it at some point.
- whodidntante
- Posts: 13114
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:11 pm
- Location: outside the echo chamber
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Interactive Brokers is ex-pat friendly. They provide many functions of a bank, but not all. And it's more brokerage than you will need.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
A freeze generally entails being able to sell, move assets out, and have dividends reinvested. I got frozen at Vanguard and transferred out to Schwab. It's scary thinking your entire taxable estate might get liquidated but that should never happen. I left a 529 plan at Vanguard frozen for years since I had superfunded it and wasn't contributing.random_walker_77 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pm
Personally, for accounts of significant size, I wouldn't want to try and fly under the radar by "forgetting" to tell your bank that you've moved. If they freeze your account on suspicion that you've been lying to them, and hence might be involved in shady stuff, that seems like asking for trouble and headaches to regain possession of your accounts. Better to figure out who you should establish accounts with, before you move.
Sure, make sure your mailing address is current. And it's probably best not to have your legal address someplace where you don't know the people living there anymore. But using a friend or relatives and a mailing service as your mailing address poses little actual risk I think.
If you have no US address, what do you do for your DL? Sometimes you can renew it from overseas (if the picture isn't too old) but it's mailed to your address so that has to be a friend or relative's.
Sure those are good places. What if you want to keep their oldest credit card open though? What if Grandma or someone deposit in your current account and you don't want to bother her?random_walker_77 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pm The State Dept credit union (open to all), and Interactive Brokers are known for being expat-friendly.
Last edited by typical.investor on Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
I agree with this. When I first moved abroad, many years ago, I had a WellsFargo account and they told me it wouldn't be a problem. Then one day, a few years later, they stopped sending me 2FA codes to Google Voice. Later my debit/ATM card was locked for using it abroad too much and I was told I had to visit a WellsFargo ATM (and only a WellsFargo ATM!) to unlock it. So I didn't use that card for several months until a trip back to the US. Luckily, by that point, I had transitioned to using a local bank (not every expat does that!) so it was annoyance rather than a huge problem.
I've had similar -- but not as bad -- issues with Schwab. If you look closely on the Schwab International page there is fine print saying "Not all products, services, or investments are available in all countries" but they don't say which services and which countries. I moved to a country that they don't like so I had to shut my account.
Even policies like "do you need to use a VPN" can change. I didn't use to need a VPN to access Schwab. Then I did. Then they started blocking VPNs.
Ironically, Vanguard has been the best to work with. Though I realise I seem to be in the minority with that.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Have you used them as an expat? I see them saying:whodidntante wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:53 pm Interactive Brokers is ex-pat friendly. They provide many functions of a bank, but not all. And it's more brokerage than you will need.
That's true of their advisory services as well. Schwab bank is similarly off limits, but you can get a debit card with no foreign transaction fees or ATM fee via your brokerage account (but no bill pay and check deposit doesn't work).The Interactive Brokers Debit Mastercard is currently available to US resident account holders
IB has the best foreign transaction rates for sure, but I have not used them for that. Some people say FX can only be done for amounts that are going to be used for trading and some people say they convert cash at IB and send it to their bank for spending.
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Was that Schwab International? I never needed a VPN even from a restricted country (meaning Schwab wouldn't open a new account for residents there but they didn't close my account since I was apparently grandfathered in).
I'd heard a few in the UK were doing it too. Are you a long time user of Vanguard? Regulations changed (or were just more enforced) in the years after 911. They totally froze me but perhaps that was a result of my sassy attitude when I complained about their accounting weirdness. I'd not been there long.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
This!German Expat wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:14 pm The short version is keep an US address on file with them and don’t tell them you are not in the US. Also get a google voice number for 2FA.
I am an ex-pat and use my nephews Texas address as my domicile. You can get international accounts with a foreign address but some brokers and banks wont touch it although more are coming on board.
Google and research 'know your customer law' it's part of the Patriot Act.. Very important for ex-pats.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Regular Schwab, using a relative's address in the US. Schwab International shut down my account when I moved to a country they don't allow.
Since 1997 or 1998 maybe? One weirdness I ran into recently with Vanguard:typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:11 pm Are you a long time user of Vanguard? Regulations changed (or were just more enforced) in the years after 911.
I wanted to convert some mutual funds to ETFs. They told me I couldn't do that on the old-style non-brokerage account system so I needed to upgrade to the new-style brokerage account system. But I wasn't allowed to do that since I didn't have a US address. I had already moved most of my assets to Interactive Brokers since I was tired of things like this cropping up. Looks like I'll be using a relative's address again so I can upgrade to the brokerage account, so I can convert to ETFs, so I can transfer the assets to IBKR.....
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
I'm not sure they'll open an account if you're not in the US. When you fill out their online application you have to certify that you are in the US.typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:10 pmThey wouldn't do one for me as an expat unless I went to a local branch which is out East someplace I think. So yeah, maybe do it stateside especially if you don't have a US address you can use.
"You acknowledge and agree that you are currently located within the territorial boundaries of the United States, Canada, or the United States territories of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands."
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Good advice from cbeck.
In addition:
1. Get a credit card like Capital One that does not charge an overseas transaction fee.
2. Set up an account at Wise.com or another option to provide an easy way to transfer money back and forth with the US at a low cost.
3. Think about getting and keeping a cheap US cell phone number that you can connect with by WiFi only while overseas. This will enable you to get codes and such to connect with Vanguard, Fidelity and credit card companies while you are overseas. They will often only allow you to connect online by entering a code.
In addition:
1. Get a credit card like Capital One that does not charge an overseas transaction fee.
2. Set up an account at Wise.com or another option to provide an easy way to transfer money back and forth with the US at a low cost.
3. Think about getting and keeping a cheap US cell phone number that you can connect with by WiFi only while overseas. This will enable you to get codes and such to connect with Vanguard, Fidelity and credit card companies while you are overseas. They will often only allow you to connect online by entering a code.
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
A good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't know anything so long as there is plausible deniability.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
Last edited by squirrel1963 on Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
YEP!!!!!! Many foreign banks and brokers will refuse doing business with US citizens due to strict FATCA / FinCEN regulations, and even if you open a brokerage account it becomes very difficult to buy index funds and ETFs because they are considered PFIC and as such subject to punitive taxation, and if even if you elect mark-to-market taxation is still not good. Best to only buy individual bonds and stocks in a foreign account. Even money market accounts are off-limits because the are PFIC.random_walker_77 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pmbackground on why: https://brighttax.com/blog/breaking-fat ... ounts-too/
In summary, compliance w/ fatca, KYC, and AML regulations makes it more expensive and risky for US banks to serve US citizens who are overseas. As a result, many are firing their customers. As an expat, you can have trouble finding US financial firms willing to continue doing business with you. You can also have difficulty finding local (foreign) institutions willing to take on the hassle of a US customer. OP is right to scope this out, and it very much depends on which country they're going to.
I live in the US but wanted to open a bank account in Italy and I had a hard time because I am a US citizen. Having also Italy's citizenship does not help me. At the end I was able to open one at the bank where my dad used to work as a clerk, but I am pretty sure they only do this as a favor to former employees, because the paper work burden for them is just too high.
I have friends who are dual US / UK citizens, and I was told UK banks refuse to do business with US citizens. Even in this case being a citizen of the foreign country is of no help. I think only the Netherlands actually had a court ruling and determined that Dutch banks must serve Dutch customers even if they are "accidental US citizens by birth".
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
The rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 amA good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't anything so long as there is plausible deniability.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
But does IBKR let you trade securities if you are an expat? My understanding is that for US expats in the EU, IBKR like other brokers will let you only sell securities, and only allow you unlimited trading (i.e., buying securities) if you qualify as a professional investor.random_walker_77 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pmbackground on why: https://brighttax.com/blog/breaking-fat ... ounts-too/
In summary, compliance w/ fatca, KYC, and AML regulations makes it more expensive and risky for US banks to serve US citizens who are overseas. As a result, many are firing their customers. As an expat, you can have trouble finding US financial firms willing to continue doing business with you. You can also have difficulty finding local (foreign) institutions willing to take on the hassle of a US customer. OP is right to scope this out, and it very much depends on which country they're going to.
Personally, for accounts of significant size, I wouldn't want to try and fly under the radar by "forgetting" to tell your bank that you've moved. If they freeze your account on suspicion that you've been lying to them, and hence might be involved in shady stuff, that seems like asking for trouble and headaches to regain possession of your accounts. Better to figure out who you should establish accounts with, before you move. The State Dept credit union (open to all), and Interactive Brokers are known for being expat-friendly.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
That's super interesting to know, maybe too late for my friend, but in time for my as I'm contemplating eventually becoming an expat. So to clarify they will happily let you have a foreign address and not only sell stocks/ETF/bonds but also buy them? Do they let you have "professional investor" status if you are in the EU so you are not subject to MiFID ?typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 amThe rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 amA good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't anything so long as there is plausible deniability.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
Thanks !!!!
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
It depends on your country of residence. It’s easy to check, go to https://international.schwab.com/open-account-introsquirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:23 amThat's super interesting to know, maybe too late for my friend, but in time for my as I'm contemplating eventually becoming an expat. So to clarify they will happily let you have a foreign address and not only sell stocks/ETF/bonds but also buy them? Do they let you have "professional investor" status if you are in the EU so you are not subject to MiFID ?typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 amThe rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 amA good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't anything so long as there is plausible deniability.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
Thanks !!!!
Put it your country of residence and if it doesn’t say call us but let’s you proceed, then fine.
I never tried to get professional status so don’t know.
Yes, you can buy stocks/ETF/bonds.
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
I just tried 4 countries:typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:30 amIt depends on your country of residence. It’s easy to check, go to https://international.schwab.com/open-account-introsquirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:23 amThat's super interesting to know, maybe too late for my friend, but in time for my as I'm contemplating eventually becoming an expat. So to clarify they will happily let you have a foreign address and not only sell stocks/ETF/bonds but also buy them? Do they let you have "professional investor" status if you are in the EU so you are not subject to MiFID ?typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 amThe rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 amA good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't anything so long as there is plausible deniability.NYCaviator wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 5:37 pm Schwab seems to be very popular for international travelers/expats because they usually don't care where you are or where you access their site from. Lot of banks/brokerages will lock you out if you are overseas for an extended period of time and are logging into your account from there.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
Thanks !!!!
Put it your country of residence and if it doesn’t say call us but let’s you proceed, then fine.
I never tried to get professional status so don’t know.
Yes, you can buy stocks/ETF/bonds.
UK: yes
CH: yes
IT: no
FR: no
Maybe Schwab wants me to move to UK or Switzerland instead of Eurozone countries.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
It’s not Schwab but rather the regulations of those countries. If they prohibit foreign companies from opening accounts for their residents it is not possible.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:36 amI just tried 4 countries:typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:30 amIt depends on your country of residence. It’s easy to check, go to https://international.schwab.com/open-account-introsquirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:23 amThat's super interesting to know, maybe too late for my friend, but in time for my as I'm contemplating eventually becoming an expat. So to clarify they will happily let you have a foreign address and not only sell stocks/ETF/bonds but also buy them? Do they let you have "professional investor" status if you are in the EU so you are not subject to MiFID ?typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 amThe rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 am
A good friend of mine had some issues with Schwab and a rep told him "If we know you live abroad we have to lock you down, if you don't tell us we don't know". The bottom line is that while perfectly legal for a US citizen to do anything (s)he pleases, brokers are simply too worried about potential issue with FATCA / FinCEN and potential regulatory issues with the foreign country (MiFID rules for Europe for instance), and there are not enough expats to make it worthwhile. But they will be happily pretend they don't anything so long as there is plausible deniability.
I've read IBKR is very expat friendly, but have no direct experience.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
Thanks !!!!
Put it your country of residence and if it doesn’t say call us but let’s you proceed, then fine.
I never tried to get professional status so don’t know.
Yes, you can buy stocks/ETF/bonds.
UK: yes
CH: yes
IT: no
FR: no
Maybe Schwab wants me to move to UK or Switzerland instead of Eurozone countries.
Interactive Brokers is structured to be able to operate most places (except for North Korea and similar).
An alternative is to form an LLC for investing that has a US address. That’s what I’d do if I couldn’t get professional status and didn’t have a US address for a US account. I returned to the US without having to do so. I estimate less than $200/year but some point out the taxation by the country of residence on foreign companies like that may not be favorable.
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Yes I think it's because of MiFID / UCITS rules in Eurozone countries.typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:43 amIt’s not Schwab but rather the regulations of those countries. If they prohibit foreign companies from opening accounts for their residents it is not possible.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:36 amI just tried 4 countries:typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:30 amIt depends on your country of residence. It’s easy to check, go to https://international.schwab.com/open-account-introsquirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:23 amThat's super interesting to know, maybe too late for my friend, but in time for my as I'm contemplating eventually becoming an expat. So to clarify they will happily let you have a foreign address and not only sell stocks/ETF/bonds but also buy them? Do they let you have "professional investor" status if you are in the EU so you are not subject to MiFID ?typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 am
The rep seems to not have known there is Schwab International as well. They be assigned to a different rep. so maybe it was intentional.
I was with Schwab International for 9 years and recommend them if possible.
Thanks !!!!
Put it your country of residence and if it doesn’t say call us but let’s you proceed, then fine.
I never tried to get professional status so don’t know.
Yes, you can buy stocks/ETF/bonds.
UK: yes
CH: yes
IT: no
FR: no
Maybe Schwab wants me to move to UK or Switzerland instead of Eurozone countries.
Interactive Brokers is structured to be able to operate most places (except for North Korea and similar).
An alternative is to form an LLC for investing that has a US address. That’s what I’d do if I couldn’t get professional status and didn’t have a US address for a US account. I returned to the US without having to do so. I estimate less than $200/year but some point out the taxation by the country of residence on foreign companies like that may not be favorable.
I'll look into the LLC idea thanks. I have many years to plan this, so hopefully I'll find something suitable
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
SDFCU opened an account for me a few years ago and for my wife last year. In both cases they requested a copy of our local rental lease.AlohaJoe wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:46 pmI'm not sure they'll open an account if you're not in the US. When you fill out their online application you have to certify that you are in the US.typical.investor wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:10 pmThey wouldn't do one for me as an expat unless I went to a local branch which is out East someplace I think. So yeah, maybe do it stateside especially if you don't have a US address you can use.
"You acknowledge and agree that you are currently located within the territorial boundaries of the United States, Canada, or the United States territories of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands."
You might have to join an affinity group such as Americans Abroad.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Hi Cbeck, regarding your suggestion to OP regarding using Google Voice account to get SMS 2fa codes on your cell phone while overseas, it is my understanding that Many financial institutions will now only send their 2FA codes to true mobile phone numbers. Google Voice numbers are land lines, with the text messaging function spliced on via a third-party messaging gateway.
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1139732#p1139732
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Another issue with cell phones overseas is for instance Google FI, which is a Google service, Google uses Verizon and two other providers for the actual cellular network in the US. It's a great plan if you travel often overseas and is relatively inexpensive if you use it overseas. The problem is that Google recently started to cancel the account of people who mostly use it overseas and rarely come back to the US. I don't know why, but lots of unhappy customers as you might imagine.rick2427 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:42 am Hi Cbeck, regarding your suggestion to OP regarding using Google Voice account to get SMS 2fa codes on your cell phone while overseas, it is my understanding that Many financial institutions will now only send their 2FA codes to true mobile phone numbers. Google Voice numbers are land lines, with the text messaging function spliced on via a third-party messaging gateway.
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
Hopefully there are cheaper options than AT&T, Verizon, T-mobile out there, but it looks more and more like you need real a real mobile cellular numbers from a major carrier. Worst case pay cheapest plan and only turn on SMS twice a month pay for international text on day I suppose.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
- typical.investor
- Posts: 5263
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Sure that might work.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:27 pmAnother issue with cell phones overseas is for instance Google FI, which is a Google service, Google uses Verizon and two other providers for the actual cellular network in the US. It's a great plan if you travel often overseas and is relatively inexpensive if you use it overseas. The problem is that Google recently started to cancel the account of people who mostly use it overseas and rarely come back to the US. I don't know why, but lots of unhappy customers as you might imagine.rick2427 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:42 am Hi Cbeck, regarding your suggestion to OP regarding using Google Voice account to get SMS 2fa codes on your cell phone while overseas, it is my understanding that Many financial institutions will now only send their 2FA codes to true mobile phone numbers. Google Voice numbers are land lines, with the text messaging function spliced on via a third-party messaging gateway.
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
Hopefully there are cheaper options than AT&T, Verizon, T-mobile out there, but it looks more and more like you need real a real mobile cellular numbers from a major carrier. Worst case pay cheapest plan and only turn on SMS twice a month pay for international text on day I suppose.
Schwab and IBKR don't require a telephone when you have 2FA set up.
Many banks offer an option 2FA by SMS, email or phone call. I used a prepaid phone from T-Mobile once but ran into trouble being able to log in from overseas to manage the account. Sprint had a similar problem where global roaming stopped working and I needed to call customer service. They could only fix it after I verified by 2FA but global roaming wasn't working and I couldn't get the SMS message. And then sometimes they update their network and send out a new SIM card and you have to hope it activates overseas. But yeah it works for a cost but wasn't so reliable for me at least. YMMV.
I'd look for a bank that does 2FA by token/phone/email. Many have the phone call option. And then keep most of the money in Schwab/IBKR who has a real token and link the account from there.
Schwab International has a no ATM fee, no foreign transaction fee debit card. That is a good back up to have if you lose (temporary) access to your US bank.The brokerage account has check writing and you can set up your credit card to do autopay from the account. The super cautious don't like to do that though. It depends on you.
IBKR has a debit card for US residents only. No foreign transactions fees/$0.50 ATM fee. I don't know what happens if you used it overseas too much or when expiry is reached and you need a new card.
- squirrel1963
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
- Location: Portland OR area
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
Incidentally there are probably similar problems when banking in Italy when outside Italy (and I imagine it would be the same for any other country).typical.investor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:02 pmSure that might work.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:27 pmAnother issue with cell phones overseas is for instance Google FI, which is a Google service, Google uses Verizon and two other providers for the actual cellular network in the US. It's a great plan if you travel often overseas and is relatively inexpensive if you use it overseas. The problem is that Google recently started to cancel the account of people who mostly use it overseas and rarely come back to the US. I don't know why, but lots of unhappy customers as you might imagine.rick2427 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:42 am Hi Cbeck, regarding your suggestion to OP regarding using Google Voice account to get SMS 2fa codes on your cell phone while overseas, it is my understanding that Many financial institutions will now only send their 2FA codes to true mobile phone numbers. Google Voice numbers are land lines, with the text messaging function spliced on via a third-party messaging gateway.
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
Hopefully there are cheaper options than AT&T, Verizon, T-mobile out there, but it looks more and more like you need real a real mobile cellular numbers from a major carrier. Worst case pay cheapest plan and only turn on SMS twice a month pay for international text on day I suppose.
Schwab and IBKR don't require a telephone when you have 2FA set up.
Many banks offer an option 2FA by SMS, email or phone call. I used a prepaid phone from T-Mobile once but ran into trouble being able to log in from overseas to manage the account. Sprint had a similar problem where global roaming stopped working and I needed to call customer service. They could only fix it after I verified by 2FA but global roaming wasn't working and I couldn't get the SMS message. And then sometimes they update their network and send out a new SIM card and you have to hope it activates overseas. But yeah it works for a cost but wasn't so reliable for me at least. YMMV.
I'd look for a bank that does 2FA by token/phone/email. Many have the phone call option. And then keep most of the money in Schwab/IBKR who has a real token and link the account from there.
Schwab International has a no ATM fee, no foreign transaction fee debit card. That is a good back up to have if you lose (temporary) access to your US bank.The brokerage account has check writing and you can set up your credit card to do autopay from the account. The super cautious don't like to do that though. It depends on you.
IBKR has a debit card for US residents only. No foreign transactions fees/$0.50 ATM fee. I don't know what happens if you used it overseas too much or when expiry is reached and you need a new card.
I have an account in Italy (primarily Italian treasuries and one single play money stock, Volkswagen). It was difficult to set up of course because I am US citizen on account of FATCA / FinCen......, there are restrictions on what you can do, and currently I'm locked out because they changed 2FA from sending international SMS to my US number in favor of a proprietary app. Needless to say the app requires getting an SMS Auth code for initial setup. It would be easier to use an Italian cellular number (which I have) but to change number I have to visit the branch in person. I tried calling customer service but they don't know why the proprietary app is unable to initiate an text SMS.
So not really pretty, and probably I'll be locked out until I go there in November. No big deal for me, I don't need the money but it's very annoying.
Honestly IBKR would be so much better, they are online only so they have figured it out, whereas these folks are brick and mortar, but it helps a lot having brick and mortar and a physical bank which can help for many local services in Italy, like paying my dad bills.
Using Italian cellular SIM card and Italy cellular carriers in the US is very cheap (pay per use) but they will close the line if you don't use it often enough. I was also paying my daughter housing and university expenses when she was studying there.
All this is worth the hassle because I need a brick and mortar bank over there and I go to Italy very often, but nothing about being US expats Or Italian expats is easy especially if you have both citizenships. hopefully I'll be able to simplify some down the line or hopefully the our governments or banks will reduce the pain for us.
LMP | Liability Matching Portfolio | safe portfolio: TIPS ladder + I-bonds + Treasuries | risky portfolio: US stocks / US REIT / International stocks
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
It's true that some institutions will no longer send SMS messages to Google Voice. So far, this hasn't affected any of my accounts.rick2427 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:42 am Hi Cbeck, regarding your suggestion to OP regarding using Google Voice account to get SMS 2fa codes on your cell phone while overseas, it is my understanding that Many financial institutions will now only send their 2FA codes to true mobile phone numbers. Google Voice numbers are land lines, with the text messaging function spliced on via a third-party messaging gateway.
Is this still working for you overseas while trying to access brokerage accounts at Vanguard/Fidelity/Schwab etc?
Thanks!
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
This is good advice. Can you explain what you did and how you avoided all these issues?cbeck wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:29 pmThis is not a safe strategy since whatever the customer service rep tells you today could change tomorrow, after the next 9/11-type episode, for example. Much better to assume an adverse stance by nearly all US institutions and plan accordingly.aspiring_kiwi wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:11 pm You can also call and ask, as a new customer, hypothetically, if you were to take an expat assignment in country y, would your account be restricted? Do so from a number that's not linked to your account, since 800 numbers get your phone # even if you've blocked caller ID.
The answer depends both on your bank/brokerage, and on which country you're going to be in. I recently called fidelity about New Zealand, and they had to look up their policy for that particular country, and said it's on their restricted list where you can maintain an account, but can't make new purchases. At Schwab, for New Zealand, the accounts would need to be closed. TIAA bank said "no problem," you just need a US address right now to open an account, and after moving overseas, you can just provide the overseas address, etc
Some financial institutions are more interested than others in doing the compliance work to support customers who've moved to country x, and it varies both on the institution, and the specific country.
Re: Banking in the US when outside of the US?
My understand is that French banks are required to provide basic banking services to all residents. The Netherlands may be another such civilized country.squirrel1963 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:11 amYEP!!!!!! Many foreign banks and brokers will refuse doing business with US citizens due to strict FATCA / FinCEN regulations, and even if you open a brokerage account it becomes very difficult to buy index funds and ETFs because they are considered PFIC and as such subject to punitive taxation, and if even if you elect mark-to-market taxation is still not good. Best to only buy individual bonds and stocks in a foreign account. Even money market accounts are off-limits because the are PFIC.random_walker_77 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:41 pmbackground on why: https://brighttax.com/blog/breaking-fat ... ounts-too/
In summary, compliance w/ fatca, KYC, and AML regulations makes it more expensive and risky for US banks to serve US citizens who are overseas. As a result, many are firing their customers. As an expat, you can have trouble finding US financial firms willing to continue doing business with you. You can also have difficulty finding local (foreign) institutions willing to take on the hassle of a US customer. OP is right to scope this out, and it very much depends on which country they're going to.
I live in the US but wanted to open a bank account in Italy and I had a hard time because I am a US citizen. Having also Italy's citizenship does not help me. At the end I was able to open one at the bank where my dad used to work as a clerk, but I am pretty sure they only do this as a favor to former employees, because the paper work burden for them is just too high.
I have friends who are dual US / UK citizens, and I was told UK banks refuse to do business with US citizens. Even in this case being a citizen of the foreign country is of no help. I think only the Netherlands actually had a court ruling and determined that Dutch banks must serve Dutch customers even if they are "accidental US citizens by birth".