Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house - UPDATE 2

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dknightd »

dbr wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:52 am
dknightd wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:44 am

I wonder if your house was designed for forced air heat. Maybe somebody changed a radiator system to a forced air system? I doubt it was designed for cooling in the 50's . . .

I suggest you visit https://forum.heatinghelp.com/
I live in a Bungalow style house built in 1915. It has hot water heat and no duct system. The heat works fabulously well though we have supplemented a couple of end-line spaces such as what was originally a summer sleeping porch* with electric baseboard. It would be a real engineering feat to install whole house cooling in this house. We use one window air conditioner and otherwise exhaust fans strategically located do well enough. We do not expect to live at a 21st century standard of air conditioning.

*Summer sleeping porches are cool at night.

As with most bungalows there is main sleeping space on the first floor.
I live in a 1938 cape cod style house. Similar to a Bungalow. We sleep on the first floor year round. It has single pipe steam heat. Which I love. Gentle heat that takes virtually no electricity to run. I can run my heat on a car battery for 2 days. It has no pumps.

I got sick and tired of moving window AC units around. Too much work, and too noisy. I spent about $10k on a "mini split" system. I bought it mostly to reduce the noise. And work. It has one outdoor unit, and five indoor units. The piping for a split unit is 1/10 of the space required for duct work. I will never break even dollar wise. But I no longer have to move those heavy things around, and I can be comfortable year round. Unless we loose power.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

dknightd wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:35 am
dbr wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:52 am
dknightd wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:44 am

I wonder if your house was designed for forced air heat. Maybe somebody changed a radiator system to a forced air system? I doubt it was designed for cooling in the 50's . . .

I suggest you visit https://forum.heatinghelp.com/
I live in a Bungalow style house built in 1915. It has hot water heat and no duct system. The heat works fabulously well though we have supplemented a couple of end-line spaces such as what was originally a summer sleeping porch* with electric baseboard. It would be a real engineering feat to install whole house cooling in this house. We use one window air conditioner and otherwise exhaust fans strategically located do well enough. We do not expect to live at a 21st century standard of air conditioning.

*Summer sleeping porches are cool at night.

As with most bungalows there is main sleeping space on the first floor.
I live in a 1938 cape cod style house. Similar to a Bungalow. We sleep on the first floor year round. It has single pipe steam heat. Which I love. Gentle heat that takes virtually no electricity to run. I can run my heat on a car battery for 2 days. It has no pumps.

I got sick and tired of moving window AC units around. Too much work, and too noisy. I spent about $10k on a "mini split" system. I bought it mostly to reduce the noise. And work. It has one outdoor unit, and five indoor units. The piping for a split unit is 1/10 of the space required for duct work. I will never break even dollar wise. But I no longer have to move those heavy things around, and I can be comfortable year round. Unless we loose power.
My son (yes he is old enough to tell his parents what they should do) also suggests a mini-split for us. I think it makes sense. We don't suffer enough to worry about it (says I in an upstairs room at 81F and it is perfectly fine right now).
JS-Elcano
Posts: 992
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:29 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by JS-Elcano »

Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 am
firebirdparts wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:39 am It’s possible that a single upstairs air return would do you a lot of good. Ideally, you could block a downstairs return in summer and block the upstairs in winter. Hard to do, though, unless you just have two closets right on top of each other.

I have a cape cod, story-and-a-half and it was insufferable until we built on. I just put in an entirely separate upstairs heat pump.
I think I was trying to address the wrong issue. The airconditioner is not working properly downstairs or upstairs. Period. It is not reaching the temperature to which I set it on the thermostat. 5 hours ago I set it to 68 and it is registering 73 now. Upstairs it is 75. Outside it is 70. I am sure that the previous Air Conditioner cooled the downstairs much faster. I cannot feel it blowing out air from the registers either upstairs or downstairs.
Do you have a contactless thermometer? If so, hold the red dot up to the air vents to see what temperature the air is that your HVAC is putting out at the vent. It should be 68F if that's what you set it to. If its warmer (as I am sure it is from your description) then the HVAC people ought to fix something. In fact, when I had my HVAC installed the installers tested the temperature of the air coming out of the vents both in cooling and in heating mode. Only when it checked out did they leave. When they come for annual checkup/maintenance they do the same thing. It sounds like this simple test would fail with your system. Good luck!!
dknightd
Posts: 3727
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:57 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dknightd »

The solution is pretty simple. Live most of you life downstairs.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

dknightd wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:01 am The solution is pretty simple. Live most of you life downstairs.
In that regard if one really wants to escape the summer heat one takes refuge in the basement. That's why people used to have root cellars and shelves full of canning jars. I am aware that in many hot parts of the country people also do not have basements. Basements can also go nearly unheated in the winter without actually freezing.
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

I think the OP might want to close this thread and start a separate one if the problem isn't resolved by the hvac company. We get a lot of threads where there really are obscure air conditioning problems that are extremely difficult to diagnose, but 95% of the replies here are addressing potentially complex issues that may not apply here, and solutions that may not be appropriate or necessary in view of the more recent description of the situation.
mrc
Posts: 1908
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mrc »

We have a two story mid 80s house. The upstairs was always too warm. The house has once A/C, and ceiling registers fed with flexible duct run though an unconditioned attic. The attic is heavily insulated and solar panels cover most of the SW facing roof. The A/C people were amazed the building didn't install a dual zone system with one dedicated to the second story (but that would cost the builder money). The A/C people reminded me that cold air is heavy and the furnace blower will never push enough cold air up THREE stories and through flex duct in a hot attic to make the second floor cool enough. We installed a mini-split in the master bedroom and turned the main thermostat up above 5 degrees since we can now cool the bedroom. You'll never overcome poor physics, and it does sound to me like you are not getting enough cold air to the second floor — something I would not have expected in a brand new system. You can't just close some of the downstairs registers (or if possible close the main plenum some) because then you'll not have enough air passing the evaporator coil and it will likely freeze up. I'd be on the phone to the installer first thing.
By the time you know enough to choose a good financial adviser, you don't need one. | bogleheads.org is my advisor: The ER is 0.0% and the advice always solid.
random_walker_77
Posts: 2212
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 8:49 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by random_walker_77 »

JS-Elcano wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:51 am
Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 am I think I was trying to address the wrong issue. The airconditioner is not working properly downstairs or upstairs. Period. It is not reaching the temperature to which I set it on the thermostat. 5 hours ago I set it to 68 and it is registering 73 now. Upstairs it is 75. Outside it is 70. I am sure that the previous Air Conditioner cooled the downstairs much faster. I cannot feel it blowing out air from the registers either upstairs or downstairs.
Do you have a contactless thermometer? If so, hold the red dot up to the air vents to see what temperature the air is that your HVAC is putting out at the vent. It should be 68F if that's what you set it to. If its warmer (as I am sure it is from your description) then the HVAC people ought to fix something. In fact, when I had my HVAC installed the installers tested the temperature of the air coming out of the vents both in cooling and in heating mode. Only when it checked out did they leave. When they come for annual checkup/maintenance they do the same thing. It sounds like this simple test would fail with your system. Good luck!!
This does sound like just a broken a/c system. You should feel airflow, and the air coming out should be cool when the a/c is on (and not just the fan). If you had a $15 instant-read IR thermometer, you'd check the temp at the air outlets vs the intake, and expect at least a 15 degree difference. Hopefully, your a/c company can set things right quickly.

One of our neighbors just had an a/c nightmare with a brand new system that failed. The company said a replacement unit would take a few months (!!!) due to "supply chain issues", and since it's under warranty, my neighbors couldn't just work with another vendor. When they went back and asked the company to supply and setup loaner window units, the company managed to find a new outside unit and install it within 2 days. <begin sarcasm> How fortuitous <end sarcasm>
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

random_walker_77 wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:06 am
JS-Elcano wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:51 am
Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:10 am I think I was trying to address the wrong issue. The airconditioner is not working properly downstairs or upstairs. Period. It is not reaching the temperature to which I set it on the thermostat. 5 hours ago I set it to 68 and it is registering 73 now. Upstairs it is 75. Outside it is 70. I am sure that the previous Air Conditioner cooled the downstairs much faster. I cannot feel it blowing out air from the registers either upstairs or downstairs.
Do you have a contactless thermometer? If so, hold the red dot up to the air vents to see what temperature the air is that your HVAC is putting out at the vent. It should be 68F if that's what you set it to. If its warmer (as I am sure it is from your description) then the HVAC people ought to fix something. In fact, when I had my HVAC installed the installers tested the temperature of the air coming out of the vents both in cooling and in heating mode. Only when it checked out did they leave. When they come for annual checkup/maintenance they do the same thing. It sounds like this simple test would fail with your system. Good luck!!
This does sound like just a broken a/c system. You should feel airflow, and the air coming out should be cool when the a/c is on (and not just the fan). If you had a $15 instant-read IR thermometer, you'd check the temp at the air outlets vs the intake, and expect at least a 15 degree difference. Hopefully, your a/c company can set things right quickly.

One of our neighbors just had an a/c nightmare with a brand new system that failed. The company said a replacement unit would take a few months (!!!) due to "supply chain issues", and since it's under warranty, my neighbors couldn't just work with another vendor. When they went back and asked the company to supply and setup loaner window units, the company managed to find a new outside unit and install it within 2 days. <begin sarcasm> How fortuitous <end sarcasm>
Thanks - I ordered it. It is 81 outside now and the temperature is 74 on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. The air conditioner has been cranking away for about 12 hours and there is not much airflow from the registers. I turned on the Black and Decker portable unit in my upstairs bedroom and bathroom. It is set at 66 degrees. I put insulation under the door that leads to the stairs. After only an hour the temperature is about 64 degrees in the upstairs bedroom.

The problem area is outside this door that has a closet on the one side and the stairs lead downstairs to the thermostat. The two hatches to the attic are on either side of the stairs. In the afternoon, this area is the hottest by far. At one stage I had the marvellous Bioaire fan there. I put it there when it got cooler about 9:00 pm. It works great but I do not have a plug there and I had to have an extension from the bathroom. Installing a plug there is another potential expense for an electrician.

I think the lack of power in the the Air Conditioner - or something else with it is the problem.

Thanks.

Lynette
User avatar
illumination
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

It really sounds like the unit they installed was undersized. Do you know how many tons the new unit is? Was it downsized from your old unit? I would bring a second HVAC company in to do an analysis. If they come back and say it should be a bigger unit for your home, I'd go back to the first installer and make them make it right. I strongly suspect they know they made a mistake and are hoping you'll just chase your tail and move on. If you feel it has worse performance than your last unit, that's what I would lean towards.

I also second the recommendation to take some of your own temp readings with a temp probe from the vent registers closest to the unit, before and after, and see if it's dropping the temp 15-20 degrees. Something like 55-60°F air should be coming out the vents when it's been up and running for a while (just a general rule of thumb, not exact). It could be something like an incorrect refrigerant charge, but one would hope a new unit that had just been installed and then the company came back out to recheck because of poor performance, they would have caught that within a few minutes if they were competent.

The last option is some sort of duct issue in a particular zone.

All of these should be really easy for professionals to troubleshoot, but it seems to me you are getting the runaround from the company that installed it. I would get a 2nd opinion and take it from there.
mortfree
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mortfree »

Too long didn’t read.

I imagine someone suggested to install a thermometer that allows you to place a sensor in the upstairs. This should help to cool the upstairs. If it doesn’t then your system isn’t capable of doing so.

Nest thermostat
Nest remote sensor (looks like small hockey puck)

During the day set the sensor to the thermostat, assuming that is on first floor.

After dinner change the sensor to the remote sensor and let it start cooling the upstairs.
Mid-40’s
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:45 am It really sounds like the unit they installed was undersized. Do you know how many tons the new unit is? Was it downsized from your old unit? I would bring a second HVAC company in to do an analysis. If they come back and say it should be a bigger unit for your home, I'd go back to the first installer and make them make it right. I strongly suspect they know they made a mistake and are hoping you'll just chase your tail and move on. If you feel it has worse performance than your last unit, that's what I would lean towards.

I also second the recommendation to take some of your own temp readings with a temp probe from the vent registers closest to the unit, before and after, and see if it's dropping the temp 15-20 degrees. Something like 55-60°F air should be coming out the vents when it's been up and running for a while (just a general rule of thumb, not exact). It could be something like an incorrect refrigerant charge, but one would hope a new unit that had just been installed and then the company came back out to recheck because of poor performance, they would have caught that within a few minutes if they were competent.

The last option is some sort of duct issue in a particular zone.

All of these should be really easy for professionals to troubleshoot, but it seems to me you are getting the runaround from the company that installed it. I would get a 2nd opinion and take it from there.
It appears to be 2.5 ton. This is the Bryant page on the unit:

https://www.carrierenterprise.com/produ ... 6bna030000

I am not sure if the air conditioner or furnace was downgraded from the previous model. The guy did some calculations on the house size, number of windows etc. It is 75 degrees downstairs on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. In the hot area on top of the stairs it is 83. Outside it is 90. It is not in my personality to bargain too much. I need to hire Sandtrap to do that for me :). I will simply plod along with my plan of testing after the insulation is installed, getting a free audit from Detroit Edison and the calling the HVAC company back.

I looked for other HVAC companies in my area. This is the only one that has been in the business long - +70 years and it has the most positive reviews. So I guess I will simply have to stick with them.
User avatar
illumination
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:59 pm
illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:45 am It really sounds like the unit they installed was undersized. Do you know how many tons the new unit is? Was it downsized from your old unit? I would bring a second HVAC company in to do an analysis. If they come back and say it should be a bigger unit for your home, I'd go back to the first installer and make them make it right. I strongly suspect they know they made a mistake and are hoping you'll just chase your tail and move on. If you feel it has worse performance than your last unit, that's what I would lean towards.

I also second the recommendation to take some of your own temp readings with a temp probe from the vent registers closest to the unit, before and after, and see if it's dropping the temp 15-20 degrees. Something like 55-60°F air should be coming out the vents when it's been up and running for a while (just a general rule of thumb, not exact). It could be something like an incorrect refrigerant charge, but one would hope a new unit that had just been installed and then the company came back out to recheck because of poor performance, they would have caught that within a few minutes if they were competent.

The last option is some sort of duct issue in a particular zone.

All of these should be really easy for professionals to troubleshoot, but it seems to me you are getting the runaround from the company that installed it. I would get a 2nd opinion and take it from there.
It appears to be 2.5 ton. This is the Bryant page on the unit:

https://www.carrierenterprise.com/produ ... 6bna030000

I am not sure if the air conditioner or furnace was downgraded from the previous model. The guy did some calculations on the house size, number of windows etc. It is 75 degrees downstairs on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. In the hot area on top of the stairs it is 83. Outside it is 90. It is not in my personality to bargain too much. I need to hire Sandtrap to do that for me :). I will simply plod along with my plan of testing after the insulation is installed, getting a free audit from Detroit Edison and the calling the HVAC company back.

I looked for other HVAC companies in my area. This is the only one that has been in the business long - +70 years and it has the most positive reviews. So I guess I will simply have to stick with them.


If the bottom floor is where the thermostat is and you're saying when you set it for 68, the coldest you can get that floor is 75 degrees (after it's been running for several hours) you need to demand it be replaced with a system that does cool it down properly or get your money refunded. There's just no other answer and it's THEIR problem to make it right. I would calmly ask to speak with the owner of the HVAC company and be ready to say you're going to escalate things if they start talking about you "reinsulating" your house. I also hate confrontation, but they made a mistake and a reputable company can absorb this and make it right. This happens all the time and it's not the end of the world for them. You're not being difficult here, it's outrageous they would pretend its your home's fault.

It's also losing proposition to try and over compensate for the wrong system being installed by throwing band aids at it like new insulation. I also don't think it will fix the problem even if you completely reengineered your home. That's a HUGE spread, I can understand the top floor being a few degrees off from the bottom floor, but this is way beyond that.

Something is wrong with the system, either the install or the unit itself. I don't think you should chase after anything else.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tortoise84 »

Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:17 am Thanks - I ordered it. It is 81 outside now and the temperature is 74 on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. The air conditioner has been cranking away for about 12 hours and there is not much airflow from the registers. I turned on the Black and Decker portable unit in my upstairs bedroom and bathroom. It is set at 66 degrees. I put insulation under the door that leads to the stairs. After only an hour the temperature is about 64 degrees in the upstairs bedroom.

The problem area is outside this door that has a closet on the one side and the stairs lead downstairs to the thermostat. The two hatches to the attic are on either side of the stairs. In the afternoon, this area is the hottest by far. At one stage I had the marvellous Bioaire fan there. I put it there when it got cooler about 9:00 pm. It works great but I do not have a plug there and I had to have an extension from the bathroom. Installing a plug there is another potential expense for an electrician.

I think the lack of power in the the Air Conditioner - or something else with it is the problem.

Thanks.

Lynette
Very likely to be something wrong with your central AC, since even your little 8,000 BTU portable AC could cool your upstairs bedroom to 64F in an hour. (For comparison, a 2.5 ton central AC = 30,000 BTU). But this also means that your insulation is probably okay, since the portable AC was not overwhelmed with infiltrating heat. However, one exception is if your duct work is in a really hot place (e.g. attic), or it's uninsulated. Then the air will get heated back up as it travels through the duct work, and your central AC will lose most of its effectiveness before the air even gets to the rooms. So you should get your AC installer to check the system fully, and also check the duct work.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:16 pm
Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:59 pm
illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:45 am It really sounds like the unit they installed was undersized. Do you know how many tons the new unit is? Was it downsized from your old unit? I would bring a second HVAC company in to do an analysis. If they come back and say it should be a bigger unit for your home, I'd go back to the first installer and make them make it right. I strongly suspect they know they made a mistake and are hoping you'll just chase your tail and move on. If you feel it has worse performance than your last unit, that's what I would lean towards.

I also second the recommendation to take some of your own temp readings with a temp probe from the vent registers closest to the unit, before and after, and see if it's dropping the temp 15-20 degrees. Something like 55-60°F air should be coming out the vents when it's been up and running for a while (just a general rule of thumb, not exact). It could be something like an incorrect refrigerant charge, but one would hope a new unit that had just been installed and then the company came back out to recheck because of poor performance, they would have caught that within a few minutes if they were competent.

The last option is some sort of duct issue in a particular zone.

All of these should be really easy for professionals to troubleshoot, but it seems to me you are getting the runaround from the company that installed it. I would get a 2nd opinion and take it from there.
It appears to be 2.5 ton. This is the Bryant page on the unit:

https://www.carrierenterprise.com/produ ... 6bna030000

I am not sure if the air conditioner or furnace was downgraded from the previous model. The guy did some calculations on the house size, number of windows etc. It is 75 degrees downstairs on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. In the hot area on top of the stairs it is 83. Outside it is 90. It is not in my personality to bargain too much. I need to hire Sandtrap to do that for me :). I will simply plod along with my plan of testing after the insulation is installed, getting a free audit from Detroit Edison and the calling the HVAC company back.

I looked for other HVAC companies in my area. This is the only one that has been in the business long - +70 years and it has the most positive reviews. So I guess I will simply have to stick with them.


If the bottom floor is where the thermostat is and you're saying when you set it for 68, the coldest you can get that floor is 75 degrees (after it's been running for several hours) you need to demand it be replaced with a system that does cool it down properly or get your money refunded. There's just no other answer and it's THEIR problem to make it right. I would calmly ask to speak with the owner of the HVAC company and be ready to say you're going to escalate things if they start talking about you "reinsulating" your house. I also hate confrontation, but they made a mistake and a reputable company can absorb this and make it right. This happens all the time and it's not the end of the world for them. You're not being difficult here, it's outrageous they would pretend its your home's fault.

It's also losing proposition to try and over compensate for the wrong system being installed by throwing band aids at it like new insulation. I also don't think it will fix the problem even if you completely reengineered your home. That's a HUGE spread, I can understand the top floor being a few degrees off from the bottom floor, but this is way beyond that.

Something is wrong with the system, either the install or the unit itself. I don't think you should chase after anything else.
Thanks - I am really depressed about this whole issue.

The thermostat is still set to 68. It has been running for about 20 hours. The actual temperature on the thermostat is 78 degrees now. In the adjacent bedroom where I was planning to sleep, it is also 78 degrees.

Thanks to all again.

Lynette
boobear54
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 14, 2022 9:03 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by boobear54 »

A hole house attic fan would be worth the money, also portable AC units work well too.
User avatar
illumination
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:09 pm
illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:16 pm
Lynette wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:59 pm
illumination wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:45 am It really sounds like the unit they installed was undersized. Do you know how many tons the new unit is? Was it downsized from your old unit? I would bring a second HVAC company in to do an analysis. If they come back and say it should be a bigger unit for your home, I'd go back to the first installer and make them make it right. I strongly suspect they know they made a mistake and are hoping you'll just chase your tail and move on. If you feel it has worse performance than your last unit, that's what I would lean towards.

I also second the recommendation to take some of your own temp readings with a temp probe from the vent registers closest to the unit, before and after, and see if it's dropping the temp 15-20 degrees. Something like 55-60°F air should be coming out the vents when it's been up and running for a while (just a general rule of thumb, not exact). It could be something like an incorrect refrigerant charge, but one would hope a new unit that had just been installed and then the company came back out to recheck because of poor performance, they would have caught that within a few minutes if they were competent.

The last option is some sort of duct issue in a particular zone.

All of these should be really easy for professionals to troubleshoot, but it seems to me you are getting the runaround from the company that installed it. I would get a 2nd opinion and take it from there.
It appears to be 2.5 ton. This is the Bryant page on the unit:

https://www.carrierenterprise.com/produ ... 6bna030000

I am not sure if the air conditioner or furnace was downgraded from the previous model. The guy did some calculations on the house size, number of windows etc. It is 75 degrees downstairs on the thermostat even though it is set to 68. In the hot area on top of the stairs it is 83. Outside it is 90. It is not in my personality to bargain too much. I need to hire Sandtrap to do that for me :). I will simply plod along with my plan of testing after the insulation is installed, getting a free audit from Detroit Edison and the calling the HVAC company back.

I looked for other HVAC companies in my area. This is the only one that has been in the business long - +70 years and it has the most positive reviews. So I guess I will simply have to stick with them.


If the bottom floor is where the thermostat is and you're saying when you set it for 68, the coldest you can get that floor is 75 degrees (after it's been running for several hours) you need to demand it be replaced with a system that does cool it down properly or get your money refunded. There's just no other answer and it's THEIR problem to make it right. I would calmly ask to speak with the owner of the HVAC company and be ready to say you're going to escalate things if they start talking about you "reinsulating" your house. I also hate confrontation, but they made a mistake and a reputable company can absorb this and make it right. This happens all the time and it's not the end of the world for them. You're not being difficult here, it's outrageous they would pretend its your home's fault.

It's also losing proposition to try and over compensate for the wrong system being installed by throwing band aids at it like new insulation. I also don't think it will fix the problem even if you completely reengineered your home. That's a HUGE spread, I can understand the top floor being a few degrees off from the bottom floor, but this is way beyond that.

Something is wrong with the system, either the install or the unit itself. I don't think you should chase after anything else.
Thanks - I am really depressed about this whole issue.

The thermostat is still set to 68. It has been running for about 20 hours. The actual temperature on the thermostat is 78 degrees now. In the adjacent bedroom where I was planning to sleep, it is also 78 degrees.

Thanks to all again.

Lynette

I can see it being incredibly frustrating, but take some comfort that the installer really has no leg to stand on here. Something is really, really wrong with how it's operating or its undersized. You're not being difficult or picky. If you set the thermostat for 68° and the coldest you can get any room in the home after 20 hours of running is 78°, they need to make it right.

I would ask the owner or someone in management ( not just another tech) to come to your house and take a look and just walk them through it. I think they will make it right assuming they are an operation that's established and been around for a while. I would not do one additional thing to alleviate the issue, the system itself needs to be addressed. It could be something as simple as going up a .5 to 1 ton, but they need to do that on their dime.
User avatar
snackdog
Posts: 3102
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:57 am
Location: PNW

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by snackdog »

We have a similar problem - the basement under the kitchen is overcooled. I put an adjustable tilt Walmart box fan at the base of the stairs, pointing up the stairs from the basement to the kitchen. I put it on a smart plug. If the outside temperature reaches 85, the fan comes on and stays on until 9pm. This works fine. The fan is noisy but the cool air is great. The dog sleeps at the top of the stairs on the cool tile.
BH Consumer FAQ: | Car? Used Toyota, Lexus or Miata. | House? 20% down and 3x salary. | Vacation house? No. | Umbrella? $1 million. | Goods? Costco.
finite_difference
Posts: 3633
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by finite_difference »

Before you get blown insulation in the attic, you may want to get the ducts checked out first? The ducts may need to be replaced.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by dbr »

finite_difference wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:43 pm Before you get blown insulation in the attic, you may want to get the ducts checked out first? The ducts may need to be replaced.
I wonder where the ducts even are in a Bungalow style house. I live in a Bungalow but the heat is hot water and electric and we don't have ducts, nor an attic to speak off, though there is some space under the center of the roof.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

finite_difference wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:43 pm Before you get blown insulation in the attic, you may want to get the ducts checked out first? The ducts may need to be replaced.
The foam is sprayed on the walls of the knee wall. The batt is placed over the floor where the duct is. I know I shone a torch on it. Maybe the ducts should be replaced but I am reaching the limit of what I am prepared to spend on this old house. The Black and Decker portable unit is doing well in my upstairs bedroom. It is 75 degrees there. The thermostat downstairs is still 81. So I ordered another Black and Decker BTU 8000 as it is only 50lbs. I also ordered a Dreo TwinCool 12000 BTU Smart Inverter Portable Air Conditioner with Dual Hose. It is a little pricey at about $600. I love my Dreo tower far so I am impressed with their products. The Bioaire window fan is in the window of the problem area. It has brought the temperature down from 90 to 84. This is bringing in outside air - it is 9:40 so the weather outside is getting cooler.

It is going to take a few months to sort out the issue of my air conditioner with the HVAC. I am sweltering in the meantime. To be honest I also like techie toys. The $100 Artic evaporator tower I got from Home Depot is a toy. It is cooling me down but increasing the humidity. It will go to my church rummage sale.

Stay cool.

Lynette
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

You've completely lost me here. I thought everybody here had agreed your hvac is not working properly and you were going to contact the company that installed it, since it should still be under warranty for parts and labor. That won't take months; maybe a day or two to find out what they propose to do to solve the problem. This doesn't seem to be a case of somewhat poor performance or marginal ductwork or insulation issues: the hvac simply isn't working or is just barely working at all, in any part of the house. Why order all this other equipment when you don't have that answer yet?
User avatar
mrspock
Posts: 2158
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:49 am
Location: Vulcan

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mrspock »

Not sure this has been discussed, but make sure the attic/roof has sufficient venting. Lots of “Holmes on Homes” episodes on this exact thing. That’s the solution they typically have (along with fixing insulation/spray foam).
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:49 pm You've completely lost me here. I thought everybody here had agreed your hvac is not working properly and you were going to contact the company that installed it, since it should still be under warranty for parts and labor. That won't take months; maybe a day or two to find out what they propose to do to solve the problem. This doesn't seem to be a case of somewhat poor performance or marginal ductwork or insulation issues: the hvac simply isn't working or is just barely working at all, in any part of the house. Why order all this other equipment when you don't have that answer yet?
Clearly something must be done. I will have to wait till after the insulation in installed to see if this makes a difference. I am also thinking of getting a Detroit Edison audit done to get expert advice on the situation before contacting the HVAC. I am thinking of trying to get the company to negotiate to get a refund for the undersized unit and install a mini split. I realize I will have to pay more - possibly several thousand. I agree this was likely premature. I'm just tired of the whole situation and really uncomfortably hot.
Last edited by Lynette on Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
vasaver
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:15 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by vasaver »

A few people have mentioned window heat pumps. They are game changing - I spent a decade trying almost everything. These window units are so much quieter than the roll around units or even regular window ACs. Please do yourself a favor and get one of these :

https://soleusair.com/index.php/products/ (38-49dBA)

https://www.midea.com/us/air-conditione ... maw08v1qwt (42dBA)
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

vasaver wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:47 am A few people have mentioned window heat pumps. They are game changing - I spent a decade trying almost everything. These window units are so much quieter than the roll around units or even regular window ACs. Please do yourself a favor and get one of these :

https://soleusair.com/index.php/products/ (38-49dBA)

https://www.midea.com/us/air-conditione ... maw08v1qwt (42dBA)
Thanks for the suggestion - I will consider it.
WillRetire
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by WillRetire »

Agree with points made by Illumination. The system is not working properly, due to bad design, bad fit, or a defect of some sort.

OP: Write down dates/times of your temperature readings inside & out, upstairs & downstairs. Give a copy to the HVAC company. If the system can't even keep the 1st floor cool, the problem is more than an upstairs-airflow issue. You could not have tested the cooling capabilities of the system before Summer. They should have.

Your system should still be covered against defects. A reputable HVAC intaller should be willing to address design/fit/configuration problems, as well as equipment defects.

When communicating with your HVAC installer, stick to the facts of the temperature readings, as opposed to you feeling too warm upstairs at night. (Your feelings may translate to their ears & brains as "blah blah blah")

One last point about 1 system for 2 levels. While it is true that 1 system per level is optimal, a single system can work just fine as long as there is a way to balance the air flow between upstairs & downstairs. In early summer, you need the ability to direct more flow upstairs. In Fall, less air flow upstairs. All that is predicated on having sufficient airflow to begin with, and heating & cooling.
010101
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:55 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by 010101 »

We bought an air conditioning setup that seemed to struggle on particularly hot days. One thing we noticed was that we didn’t have any window coverings and we had a few uncovered skylights — all of which allowed the sun to come in and absolutely bake the house. We invested in some blackout curtains and a shade for the skylight. Ever since then we have had no problems.

Your issue may be with the air conditioning itself. But could be exacerbated by the house setup.
fposte
Posts: 2327
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:32 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by fposte »

Lynette wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am Clearly something must be done. I will have to wait till after the insulation in installed to see if this makes a difference.
I may have missed something, but why do you have to wait for that? It sounds to me like you could call Monday and say that your measurements indicate a significant failure of this new unit to cool properly and you’d like to have somebody come out to see if the issue is repairable. Insulation and energy audits are nice to have but a sudden failure at the level you describe isn’t due to house permeability.
WillRetire
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by WillRetire »

fposte wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:49 am
Lynette wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am Clearly something must be done. I will have to wait till after the insulation in installed to see if this makes a difference.
I may have missed something, but why do you have to wait for that? It sounds to me like you could call Monday and say that your measurements indicate a significant failure of this new unit to cool properly and you’d like to have somebody come out to see if the issue is repairable. Insulation and energy audits are nice to have but a sudden failure at the level you describe isn’t due to house permeability.
Exactly. Sure, there are energy efficiency improvements that can be made but those discussions muddy the water. The house hasn't changed (presumably) since the new system was installed. The new system isn't working properly, and not as well upstairs as the old system.

Whatever the facts are regarding cooling failures, OP should stick to those facts & data in all communications with the HVAC installer. Stick to the facts as talking points. Repeat as often as needed. While non-HVAC-related efficiency improvements are warranted, the performance of the new system is the issue.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

WillRetire wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:59 am
fposte wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:49 am
Lynette wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:43 am Clearly something must be done. I will have to wait till after the insulation in installed to see if this makes a difference.
I may have missed something, but why do you have to wait for that? It sounds to me like you could call Monday and say that your measurements indicate a significant failure of this new unit to cool properly and you’d like to have somebody come out to see if the issue is repairable. Insulation and energy audits are nice to have but a sudden failure at the level you describe isn’t due to house permeability.
Exactly. Sure, there are energy efficiency improvements that can be made but those discussions muddy the water. The house hasn't changed (presumably) since the new system was installed. The new system isn't working properly, and not as well upstairs as the old system.

Whatever the facts are regarding cooling failures, OP should stick to those facts & data in all communications with the HVAC installer. Stick to the facts as talking points. Repeat as often as needed. While non-HVAC-related efficiency improvements are warranted, the performance of the new system is the issue.
Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of calling on Monday even though the insulation installers will be here. The air conditioner is not only failing upstairs but downstairs as well. I had to run a window fan in the downstairs bedroom last night as the temperature was around 80. The thermometer has been set to 68 for about 3 days now and it does not get below 77. Last night it was 81. Upstairs in the problem area it was 91.

When I made the first call to the HVAC, I thought the problem was that I had set the fancy thermometer incorrectly. This is not the case. Both thermometers register the same high temperature upstairs and downstairs. I am now running the new Arctic fan downstairs as the temperature is about 79 - and climbing in my living room where I am sitting. Granted we have a heat advisory and it will get up to 91 today but I never had these problems with the old unit.

I really appreciate the advice.

Thanks,

Lynette
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

You should avoid telling the hvac company the entire story you've related here; just tell them the air conditioning isn't working and in fact may never have worked as far as you can tell. That's all they need to know.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:34 am You should avoid telling the hvac company the entire story you've related here; just tell them the air conditioning isn't working and in fact may never have worked as far as you can tell. That's all they need to know.
Thank for the advice. I appreciate it. The temperature upstairs and downstairs is about the same now at noon. Later as the afternoon sun starts to bake the west and south windows, it rises upstairs to about 90 whereas downstairs stays about 79. The air conditioner can handle downstairs if the temperature goes down to the low sixties but not if it stays in the low seventies as has been the case for the last few days.

Thanks,

Lynetee
tibbitts
Posts: 23716
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by tibbitts »

Lynette wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:47 am
tibbitts wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:34 am You should avoid telling the hvac company the entire story you've related here; just tell them the air conditioning isn't working and in fact may never have worked as far as you can tell. That's all they need to know.
Thank for the advice. I appreciate it. The temperature upstairs and downstairs is about the same now at noon. Later as the afternoon sun starts to bake the west and south windows, it rises upstairs to about 90 whereas downstairs stays about 79. The air conditioner can handle downstairs if the temperature goes down to the low sixties but not if it stays in the low seventies as has been the case for the last few days.

Thanks,

Lynetee
So that's what I meant: don't try to tell the hvac company that story. Just say the air conditioning doesn't work. Otherwise they're going to start out with an assumption that it's some sort of marginal performance issue, unrealistic customer expectation, etc.
User avatar
illumination
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by illumination »

I wouldn't wait and see if the insulation "fixes" the problem. You're coming up on it being over 1 year since the install and I think it's better to get it resolved in that first year to look more credible that this was their error.

My non-expert opinion is the gap is way too large for some insulation upgrades to "fix" this. If you're setting the thermostat at 68 all day and it's getting over 80 degrees in the home, that's something larger. You could have something like a collapsed or detached duct and the insulation just "masks" a system that's going to give you sky high utility bills. I'd fix the AC, then look at upgraded insulation as something that helps your utility bills. Or maybe your current insulation is just fine.

Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but many of these things you're doing could be making things worse. If you're using window fans on a hot day while the system is running, that can be major issue if the outside temp is higher than what you've set the thermostat for. That's basically the opposite of insulation. When the HVAC company looks at it, take down the window fans. An evaporative cooler can also put a load on the system as you're adding humidity to the space and that takes more energy to cool, you're really supposed to have a way for the heat to escape when using an evaporative cooler, like a window open. The portable AC units need the window open for the heat to exhaust, that also may be an issue on the central AC's performance if there's gaps in the window with the exhaust tubing. I'd put ALL of this away when you're having the company look at it because they are going to blame those things.

It's really as simple as you should be able to get the thermostat to hit the temperature you set it for, just show the company that it can't do that and what are they going to do to make it perform properly. You're not going to accept anything less than that. If they point to insulation upgrades, tell them they should have put in a system that matched your home's needs. It's not the other way around, you don't reengineer a home around an AC system. If you set the temp for 75 degrees, it should hit 75 degrees, especially running all day. There will probably be a few degree spread between the downstairs and upstairs, but that can easily be accommodated by just dropping it a few degrees. My jaw drops at how much you've thrown the kitchen sink at this instead of just making the responsible party fix it.

I hope you get it resolved and best of luck.
mrc
Posts: 1908
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mrc »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:10 am
Lynette wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:47 am
tibbitts wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:34 am You should avoid telling the hvac company the entire story you've related here; just tell them the air conditioning isn't working and in fact may never have worked as far as you can tell. That's all they need to know.
Thank for the advice. I appreciate it. The temperature upstairs and downstairs is about the same now at noon. Later as the afternoon sun starts to bake the west and south windows, it rises upstairs to about 90 whereas downstairs stays about 79. The air conditioner can handle downstairs if the temperature goes down to the low sixties but not if it stays in the low seventies as has been the case for the last few days.

Thanks,

Lynetee
So that's what I meant: don't try to tell the hvac company that story. Just say the air conditioning doesn't work. Otherwise they're going to start out with an assumption that it's some sort of marginal performance issue, unrealistic customer expectation, etc.
This exactly. That system is behaving like one that needs a refrigerant charge. If the air temp coming out of the vents isn't 16-22°F lower than the return air, something is wrong with the system. Let them figure it out.
By the time you know enough to choose a good financial adviser, you don't need one. | bogleheads.org is my advisor: The ER is 0.0% and the advice always solid.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

illumination wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:19 am I wouldn't wait and see if the insulation "fixes" the problem. You're coming up on it being over 1 year since the install and I think it's better to get it resolved in that first year to look more credible that this was their error.

My non-expert opinion is the gap is way too large for some insulation upgrades to "fix" this. If you're setting the thermostat at 68 all day and it's getting over 80 degrees in the home, that's something larger. You could have something like a collapsed or detached duct and the insulation just "masks" a system that's going to give you sky high utility bills. I'd fix the AC, then look at upgraded insulation as something that helps your utility bills. Or maybe your current insulation is just fine.

Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but many of these things you're doing could be making things worse. If you're using window fans on a hot day while the system is running, that can be major issue if the outside temp is higher than what you've set the thermostat for. That's basically the opposite of insulation. When the HVAC company looks at it, take down the window fans. An evaporative cooler can also put a load on the system as you're adding humidity to the space and that takes more energy to cool, you're really supposed to have a way for the heat to escape when using an evaporative cooler, like a window open. The portable AC units need the window open for the heat to exhaust, that also may be an issue on the central AC's performance if there's gaps in the window with the exhaust tubing. I'd put ALL of this away when you're having the company look at it because they are going to blame those things.

It's really as simple as you should be able to get the thermostat to hit the temperature you set it for, just show the company that it can't do that and what are they going to do to make it perform properly. You're not going to accept anything less than that. If they point to insulation upgrades, tell them they should have put in a system that matched your home's needs. It's not the other way around, you don't reengineer a home around an AC system. If you set the temp for 75 degrees, it should hit 75 degrees, especially running all day. There will probably be a few degree spread between the downstairs and upstairs, but that can easily be accommodated by just dropping it a few degrees. My jaw drops at how much you've thrown the kitchen sink at this instead of just making the responsible party fix it.

I hope you get it resolved and best of luck.
Thanks for all of your assistance and advice. I do not plan to run any of my "devices" today. Nothing is running now. I don't really like the Artic evaporator tower. I have been running these devices infrequently as an experiment. I have only run the window fans after nine p.m. when it starts to cool. I may run one in the downstairs bedroom after nine tonight if it gets too hot.

I had all of these high temperature during the heat wave that coincided with European one. I thought the problem was that I had set the fancy thermostat incorrectly. This is why I asked the HVAC to give me a new one. The air conditioner cannot perform properly when the day temperature gets close to 90 and the evenings do not cool below the seventies. It works OK if the day temperatures stay in the low eighties and the evenings drop to the sixties.

I have put so much effort into this as I did not know what was happening and I was dying of heat sleeping upstairs during the recent heat wave. It is only with monitoring the temperature and observing what is going on that I have come to understand that the new air conditioner is different to the previous one and causing the problem. We now have another heat wave and I anticipated correctly that the same thing would happen.

I will call the HVAC tomorrow and ask them to come on Wednesday when I have had an opportunity to see if the new insulation has helped.

Thanks again.

Lynette
rgs92
Posts: 3436
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by rgs92 »

Years ago in my older (1950ish) NJ 2700 sf house an HVAC fellow came to measure my cooling needs to replace an aging 4-ton central air system .
(Heating was a separate natural-gas-fired hot water system with a boiler/baseboards.)
The old system was a bit weak but OK.
He came with million climate charts and laser measuring tools and argued that I needed a SMALLER Lennox 3.5 ton system (15 SEER) to prevent over-cycling and inefficiency and that his giant analysis proved this.
I said comfort was my priority, not the cost of running it or the price of the unit or installation, but he insisted his analysis was correct.

So I went with it and for 10 years the darn system could not keep the upstairs under 80 degrees F when it was over 90F outside.
I cursed going with this pushy guy ever since.

Eventually, decided to get rid of the old system, told the new people to not advise anything and just replace the 3.5 ton system with big 5-ton (13 SEER) York system and it cooled everything like a charm.

So my advice to anyone is to ignore what anyone says and oversize everything because you can't make a weak A/C system stronger. You can always turn the thermostat to a warmer setting if you are chilly. You can't do the reverse. I learned the hard way and it looks like the OP did also.

I would tell the OP to rip out the old unit and just put a great big powerful one in. Get a good electrician to make sure the unit has enough power, even if you need to replace electrical panel.

(I had also fussed around with insulation and spent money on this before I replaced the A/C system, but it did no good and actually imbalanced the house and messed up the heating somewhat. I have little faith in fancy insulation now in older houses. They just don't seem built for it. It was a waste of money.)

I remember distinctly the original HVAC fellow arguing how in this climate the cooling day frequency would never justify a big unit, and I remember saying to myself, What About big heatwaves? What am I supposed to do? I need to have a unit cool for the maximum-need situations. So this idea about sizing a unit for for a northern vs. southern area makes no sense to me.
He also kept talking about my "non-southern exposure" and "tree shading" cooling affect.

You really need to second-guess these contractors and think for yourself.

And I think this applies to newer houses, too. I visited several model houses mid-day and I noticed parts of the house were hot and noticed the A/C was not keeping up with the thermostat. So be careful here also.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

rgs92 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:58 pm Years ago in my older (1950ish) NJ 2700 sf house an HVAC fellow came to measure my cooling needs to replace an aging 4-ton central air system .
(Heating was a separate natural-gas-fired hot water system with a boiler/baseboards.)
The old system was a bit weak but OK.
He came with million climate charts and laser measuring tools and argued that I needed a SMALLER Lennox 3.5 ton system (15 SEER) to prevent over-cycling and inefficiency and that his giant analysis proved this.
I said comfort was my priority, not the cost of running it or the price of the unit or installation, but he insisted his analysis was correct.

So I went with it and for 10 years the darn system could not keep the upstairs under 80 degrees F when it was over 90F outside.
I cursed going with this pushy guy ever since.

Eventually, decided to get rid of the old system, told the new people to not advise anything and just replace the 3.5 ton system with big 5-ton (13 SEER) York system and it cooled everything like a charm.

So my advice to anyone is to ignore what anyone says and oversize everything because you can't make a weak A/C system stronger. You can always turn the thermostat to a warmer setting if you are chilly. You can't do the reverse. I learned the hard way and it looks like the OP did also.

I would tell the OP to rip out the old unit and just put a great big powerful one in. Get a good electrician to make sure the unit has enough power, even if you need to replace electrical panel.

(I had also fussed around with insulation and spent money on this before I replaced the A/C system, but it did no good and actually imbalanced the house and messed up the heating somewhat. I have little faith in fancy insulation now in older houses. They just don't seem built for it. It was a waste of money.)

I remember distinctly the original HVAC fellow arguing how in this climate the cooling day frequency would never justify a big unit, and I remember saying to myself, What About big heatwaves? What am I supposed to do? I need to have a unit cool for the maximum-need situations. So this idea about sizing a unit for for a northern vs. southern area makes no sense to me.
He also kept talking about my "non-southern exposure" and "tree shading" cooling affect.

You really need to second-guess these contractors and think for yourself.

And I think this applies to newer houses, too. I visited several model houses mid-day and I noticed parts of the house were hot and noticed the A/C was not keeping up with the thermostat. So be careful here also.
Thanks - I think you are 100% correct. I am still inclined to tell them that the system is not powerful enough. I have spent $10,000 at then end of last year so I'd rather that they handle this.

I have written so much about what I think so I thought I would include the technician's summary:

Cleaned condenser as it was very dirty. Replaced 16” ez flex furnace filter. Swapped out sensi for non
programmable Emerson tstat. Customer complained that the sensi was too difficult to operate. Also
complained about the upstairs not getting cool enough she has a window fan in one window. Ceiling fan too.
I’m sure with the cleaning and replacing of filter air flow will be stronger andsystem will run more efficiently.

Diagnosis/Trip Fee Not every system issue is quickly diagnosed and they require additional
time. We want to make sure that we look at all possible causes so that we may present you with a proper repair
quote.


Lol on the customer thinking that the sensi was too difficult to operate. I could not find a manual that would tell me how to operate it and I thought that the settings were the problem. The airflow is not any better!! Cleaning and replacing the filter did not improve the airflow. I can hardly feel it.
Thanks,

Lynette
mpnret
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 9:16 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mpnret »

rgs92 wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 12:58 pm Years ago in my older (1950ish) NJ 2700 sf house an HVAC fellow came to measure my cooling needs to replace an aging 4-ton central air system .
(Heating was a separate natural-gas-fired hot water system with a boiler/baseboards.)
The old system was a bit weak but OK.
He came with million climate charts and laser measuring tools and argued that I needed a SMALLER Lennox 3.5 ton system (15 SEER) to prevent over-cycling and inefficiency and that his giant analysis proved this.
I said comfort was my priority, not the cost of running it or the price of the unit or installation, but he insisted his analysis was correct.

So I went with it and for 10 years the darn system could not keep the upstairs under 80 degrees F when it was over 90F outside.
I cursed going with this pushy guy ever since.

Eventually, decided to get rid of the old system, told the new people to not advise anything and just replace the 3.5 ton system with big 5-ton (13 SEER) York system and it cooled everything like a charm.

So my advice to anyone is to ignore what anyone says and oversize everything because you can't make a weak A/C system stronger. You can always turn the thermostat to a warmer setting if you are chilly. You can't do the reverse. I learned the hard way and it looks like the OP did also.

I would tell the OP to rip out the old unit and just put a great big powerful one in. Get a good electrician to make sure the unit has enough power, even if you need to replace electrical panel.

(I had also fussed around with insulation and spent money on this before I replaced the A/C system, but it did no good and actually imbalanced the house and messed up the heating somewhat. I have little faith in fancy insulation now in older houses. They just don't seem built for it. It was a waste of money.)

I remember distinctly the original HVAC fellow arguing how in this climate the cooling day frequency would never justify a big unit, and I remember saying to myself, What About big heatwaves? What am I supposed to do? I need to have a unit cool for the maximum-need situations. So this idea about sizing a unit for for a northern vs. southern area makes no sense to me.
He also kept talking about my "non-southern exposure" and "tree shading" cooling affect.

You really need to second-guess these contractors and think for yourself.

And I think this applies to newer houses, too. I visited several model houses mid-day and I noticed parts of the house were hot and noticed the A/C was not keeping up with the thermostat. So be careful here also.
I had a very similar situation 20 years ago. Same type analysis, same existing 4 ton, same gas HWBB, same size house, even the same state. My existing 4T was adequate but starting to die. Guy said a new 3.5T would do it. Knowing my existing 4T was just adequate I stood my ground for another 4T. It was better than the previous one but I still considered it just adequate. Back then the concern was always inefficiency, over cycling which would not allow proper dehumidification. Now it's 20 years later and I am shopping again and am finally going to get my 5T. It's easier to do these days with the new inverter variable speed systems. The system won't use a full 5T unless necessary for cooling. I'm looking at a Daikin Fit but Trane and others also have inverter systems.
My take is any analysis call it "manual J" or whatever is good for approximating a new system with a lot of unknowns but once you lived in a place for years you have a better idea of what's needed
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

Big thanks to RGS92 and mpnret! I am sure you are correct. My problem is that I spent $10,000 on a new furnace and air conditioning at the end of last year. I am going to spend $5,000 for insulation. I spent about $4,000 for furniture to move downstairs. I spent close to $2,000 for additional toys such as portable air conditioners, window fans, etc. I may relocate in another 5 years but don't want to live in an apartment as I like my garden and neighborhood. Small 1400 sqft houses like mine are being torn down for $1 - 1.5 million McMansions. I may just use my "toys" to cool me down.
mpnret
Posts: 672
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 9:16 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mpnret »

My suggestion pretty much mirrors what others have said. Talk to the HVAC manager who sold you the system. Stick to the basics. Previous system cooled the house. System he recommended does not. It's not just an upstairs issue as you are not even cooling the downstairs. Tell him what you set the thermostat at for how long and what the actual temp is up and down. It should be up to him to figure it out.
Since the insulation is already scheduled it can't hurt to go ahead with it. It will benefit with both heat and cooling but I don't see it fixing your issue.
Sorry I wandered off topic a bit in my response to Rgs92 but I thought there might be some benefit just to know about that type of system.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

mpnret wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:58 pm My suggestion pretty much mirrors what others have said. Talk to the HVAC manager who sold you the system. Stick to the basics. Previous system cooled the house. System he recommended does not. It's not just an upstairs issue as you are not even cooling the downstairs. Tell him what you set the thermostat at for how long and what the actual temp is up and down. It should be up to him to figure it out.
Since the insulation is already scheduled it can't hurt to go ahead with it. It will benefit with both heat and cooling but I don't see it fixing your issue.
Sorry I wandered off topic a bit in my response to Rgs92 but I thought there might be some benefit just to know about that type of system.
Thank you,

Lynette
mega317
Posts: 5705
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:55 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mega317 »

I didn’t read the whole thread. When we lived in Michigan we knew we had some duct efficiency issues, for example the basement was always freezing, but when we got our attic properly ventilated the upstairs was immediately 10 degrees cooler on hot days. It was only a few hundred dollars.
mortfree
Posts: 2968
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by mortfree »

You mentioned you can hardly feel the airflow.

Is that at all vents?

I wonder if the dip switch settings are correct for fan speed (cooling)? If equipped.

Did the furnace perform well?
Mid-40’s
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

mortfree wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:22 pm You mentioned you can hardly feel the airflow.

Is that at all vents?

I wonder if the dip switch settings are correct for fan speed (cooling)? If equipped.

Did the furnace perform well?
Thanks but I really don't know. I sleep cold and always add blankets. The highly experienced technician who was examined my house said that the airflow was weak. He hoped to solve this by cleaning the air-conditioning unit that he said was very dirty. In the winter the technicians did not service air conditioner when they did the furnace as it was snowing. The technician thought that he could solve the problem of the airflow by cleaning the airconditioner and replacing the filter. I assumed that he would have checked the fan speed when he did the examination.

Thanks to everyone for interest and advice given. I am most impressed by the level of knowledge on Bogleheads. I plan to deal with through the manager of the HVAC as technically I am out of my depth. The previous furnace and airconditioner worked. This one does not. I want a solution that works.

Thanks,

Lynette
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3962
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by indexfundfan »

mrc wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am This exactly. That system is behaving like one that needs a refrigerant charge. If the air temp coming out of the vents isn't 16-22°F lower than the return air, something is wrong with the system. Let them figure it out.
I agree with this.

After the A/C system has been running for a while (>15 minutes), go outside to the compressor and locate the connectors where the piping connects to the compressor. On a hot day, you will usually see condensation on one of the connectors. It should also be cold to the touch. This supplies the cold refrigerant to the evaporator coil in the furnace / blower.

Next go to the vent nearest to your blower, and measure the air temperature. The supply air temperature should be at least 15F cooler than the return air.

Check these first. Low refrigerant charge could be the cause of inadequate cooling. Too high refrigerant pressure could also cause the same issue.

You need to make sure these are working properly before even thinking about the cooling upstairs.
My signature has been deleted.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

indexfundfan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 am
mrc wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am This exactly. That system is behaving like one that needs a refrigerant charge. If the air temp coming out of the vents isn't 16-22°F lower than the return air, something is wrong with the system. Let them figure it out.
I agree with this.

After the A/C system has been running for a while (>15 minutes), go outside to the compressor and locate the connectors where the piping connects to the compressor. On a hot day, you will usually see condensation on one of the connectors. It should also be cold to the touch. This supplies the cold refrigerant to the evaporator coil in the furnace / blower.

Next go to the vent nearest to your blower, and measure the air temperature. The supply air temperature should be at least 15F cooler than the return air.

Check these first. Low refrigerant charge could be the cause of inadequate cooling. Too high refrigerant pressure could also cause the same issue.

You need to make sure these are working properly before even thinking about the cooling upstairs.
Should the temperature be the same at all of the supply vents and the same for the outlet vents? Today there is a variation - if I am doing it correctly! The guys from the insulation company are here at the moment and presently they are running a large hose through the open door with pink stuff running through it and spraying it upstairs. It all looks fun even if it is not effective. I will measure the vents again after they leave.

I need to wait until they leave and get the house to settle down before I can confidently call the HVAC company.
User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3962
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:21 am
Contact:

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by indexfundfan »

Lynette wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:40 am
indexfundfan wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:00 am
mrc wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:48 am This exactly. That system is behaving like one that needs a refrigerant charge. If the air temp coming out of the vents isn't 16-22°F lower than the return air, something is wrong with the system. Let them figure it out.
I agree with this.

After the A/C system has been running for a while (>15 minutes), go outside to the compressor and locate the connectors where the piping connects to the compressor. On a hot day, you will usually see condensation on one of the connectors. It should also be cold to the touch. This supplies the cold refrigerant to the evaporator coil in the furnace / blower.

Next go to the vent nearest to your blower, and measure the air temperature. The supply air temperature should be at least 15F cooler than the return air.

Check these first. Low refrigerant charge could be the cause of inadequate cooling. Too high refrigerant pressure could also cause the same issue.

You need to make sure these are working properly before even thinking about the cooling upstairs.
Should the temperature be the same at all of the supply vents and the same for the outlet vents? Today there is a variation - if I am doing it correctly! The guys from the insulation company are here at the moment and presently they are running a large hose through the open door with pink stuff running through it and spraying it upstairs. It all looks fun even if it is not effective. I will measure the vents again after they leave.

I need to wait until they leave and get the house to settle down before I can confidently call the HVAC company.
Start with the one which you think is closest to the blower. It should be the coldest one; the other supply vents could be less cold, and that reflects the temperature gradient in your duct work. Ideally the temperature variations between the supply vents should be as small as possible.
My signature has been deleted.
Topic Author
Lynette
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:47 am

Re: Please advise on how to cool upstairs in my 1950s house

Post by Lynette »

Lol - after insulator guys left, i called the pleasant receptionist at the HVAC company. These were a few of the key points.

1. Window Fan
The lady told me in an accusatory tone that the notes indicated I was running a window fan. It sucked in humidity and so the air conditioner had to work harder to get rid of it. I told her I only ran this infrequently in the late evening when it was cooler.

2. Thermostat set to 68 makes unit work harder.
I said that I set the airconditioner to 68 and it was running all of the time. She told me that this was usual in hot weather. She said that the airconditioners were only designed to run at 15 degrees less than the outside temperature. After I had taken the meaurements below, I turned the themometer desired temperature up to 72. Presumably the air conditioner will not have to work so hard

I have decided that I want to be comfortable even if I have to pay for an upgrade or who knows what?

4. Technician or manager?
The lady and I discussed if I should get a technicial or speak to a manager. I said explicitly that the previous large air conditioner worked well. So did she recommend sending a manager or technician. She said she would speak to the Admin manager. She called me back and told me the manager who sold me the unit was very busy but he would call me tomorrow when he was free. I asked if the manager would let me upgrade. She said she did not know. So I asked if the existing furnace could handle a larger airconditioner. She told me that she was not a technician and did not know.

5. Supply and Outlet measurements.
As requested, I measured the temperature supply and outlet in the different rooms. The hot area on the stairs only has one hot supply vent. There is nothing opposite the stairs where there is a large closet. These are the results. I may have been off by one degree or two if I was not holding the meter at the same distance from each vent.

Bedroom 1 - closest to Air Conditioner

Supply - 57 Outlet - 68

Bathroom ( Between Bedroom 1 and 2)

Supply 57 No outlet

Bedroom 2

Supply 59 Outlet 67

Living Room

Supply 1 57 Outlet 67
Supply 2 57

Dining Room - off Bathroom, Living Room, Passage to Bedrooms and Kitchen

Supply 58 Outlet 69

Kitchen

Supply 58 No visible outlet

Stairs

Supply 69 - No visible outlet

Bathroom Upstairs

Supply 86 - Blocked - Fan

Bedroom Upstairs

Supply 1 - 68

Supply 2 - on other side of room 76

Dual outlet on same side as Supply 1 - 76
Post Reply