Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

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1moreyr
Posts: 465
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 1moreyr »

02nz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am
hunoraut wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:10 am All of us with electric cars have owned traditional cars and so have actual personal experience with all facets on both ends.
That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument. Alone that's no reason for dismissal -- people have the capacity to extrapolate and reason. It's just many obviously do not use this capacity.
Very well put.

One could also say those with EVs are using their own bias to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit ones house for charging.
Math doesn't need experience... Math is math.

I believe many have made a feasible case (for both ICE and EV) based on their current car situation (or their choices of cars they would consider). And that works for them.

an earlier post gets discounted because the person compares their current Nissan Sentra to buying a new EV. Someone says it's ridiculous to compare a Nissan Sentra to a Tesla.. It's not ridiculous if you own and are happy with the Sentra.

This is like 2 people owning the same car and arguing over what the gas mileage is when they both drive completely differently. Your mileage and situation (and ability to pay) may vary.

These discussions almost feel like American politics where both sides are rooted in their own thoughts and can't hear the other side.
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

cmr79 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:39 pm
smitcat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:53 am
cmr79 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:18 pm
smitcat wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:56 pm
cmr79 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:45 pm The current model year base Nissan Leaf S, after the current iteration of the tax credit for which it remains eligible, would be $19,900. It would be fair to consider that many people considering the sub-$20k car market probably don't have enough income to claim a nonrefundable $7500 tax credit, though.

The Chevy Spark is being discontinued and is, to my knowledge, the only sub-$16k MSRP new vehicle on the US market right now. There are 5 other vehicles with base models under $20k, and I would argue that any might be better or worse depending on intended use vs a Leaf S, though I don't personally find any of them desirable and would guess most here wouldn't either. Well...perhaps the Impreza isn't bad.

"The current model year base Nissan Leaf S, after the current iteration of the tax credit for which it remains eligible, would be $19,900."
What current iteration of the tax credit are you referring to that will still be valid?
My understanding is that if I were to purchase a Leaf S today (or any day prior to pending legislation being signed into official law, whenever that is), that the current tax credit which has not yet phased out for Nissan would still be applicable on taxes filed for the current year in 2023. Obviously this could be subject to change, but that would entail speculation about pending legislation and would be off-topic, while the vehicle's actual net cost for me today seems relevant to this topic.
Where is the Nissan Leaf's battery produced?
Apparently in Smyrna, Tennessee--Nissan has produced both the Leaf and its battery pack there since 2012. They also have plants in Japan, China, and the UK though, and I don't know how many US vehicles are currently being imported from any of them. I have no idea where Nissan sources its lithium or other rare earth metals for US vehicles, but I'm not sure why any of this is relevant unless we're engaging in non-actionable speculation about pending legislation, no matter how impending/likely to be passed the bill seems.
"The current model year base Nissan Leaf S, after the current iteration of the tax credit for which it remains eligible, would be $19,900."
The above is what you posted and this is why I asked.....can you qualify your posts with an accurate answer for anyone (like us) interested in these EV's?
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:57 pm
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm The 22 Bolt I have is 'not as economy as one can get' and has comfy, heated leather seats and steering wheel, drivers assistance package with automatic braking, wireless Apple Carplay (or AA), a 10" infotainment screen, Bose speakers, etc. It costs $31k without a rebate, versus $26 for a base Camry. With the recently passed rebate extension, this Bolt will theoretically cost less than a base Camry.
To be clear - the bill in Congress has not yet fully passed and been signed into law. We can't say more than that for now.

The Bolt's interior does look to be much improved over the old one, and the EUV version has a more sophisticated driver-assist system (Super Cruise) than almost any ICE vehicle (other than GM's own). It's definitely not a penalty box.
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm The great thing about this thread is that it is like whack a mole... an ICE enthusiast specifies a particular metric that ICE vs EV must be judged by... when example EVs are found that are competitive on the metric, other ICE enthusiasts come forward to explain that that metric is unimportant (and that they don't believe the EV is better on that metric also), and a different metric is important. Repeat ad infinitum.
Yep, exactly what I noticed way upthread. There's so much moving of goalposts, they are in a different stadium, if not different city by now.
"To be clear - the bill in Congress has not yet fully passed and been signed into law. We can't say more than that for now."
I do not believe any currently produced cars will qualify for an extension of the rebates regardless of if or when this passes.
Do you have better information on which vehicles may qualify?
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:50 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:33 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:27 am
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:56 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:56 am

Are there any EV's that have the space for 4 pass comfortably along with space behind the second seats for at least carry -on luggage for the same 4 people? Equivalent or larger than the CRV or the CX5 as examples?
The Bolt can seat 4 adults comfortably with generous head and legroom front and back. And has 17 cu ft of cargo space behind the second row. IMO enough for carry on for 4 adults. There would be additional room in the cabin for purses and backpacks.

As I said, I have owned a Camry AND two Bolts. The Bolt cabin is roomier, taller and more comfortable.

I think @Jack has gotten some bad info. The Bolt was a clean build and billed as a compact CUV, not a compact hatch. The Spark was a re-tread of an ICE design, tiny and sold in small numbers.
The reason I asked in because we just looked at a bolt and with the seats up there was not nearly enough room left. We were there with our CX5 and parked right next to the Bolt.
There are a few other ideas above so maybe we can get to look at some other options - often these cars are not in stock and no easy way to look at them.
Did you see on the Bolt that you can remove the cargo shelf in the back and there's a large space beneath? I think you can definitely fit 4 carry-ons standing.
Not sure where you got those figures but check out Alex on Autos' review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj0-R0hSCCE&t=488s

Sure looks like 4 carry-ons will fit.
Storage space - with the seats up in usable position the Bolt is about 16 cubic feet and the CX5 is about 31, the CRV is higher that the CX-5 but we can get along with the storage space of the CX-5 but its tight.
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm
aquaman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:13 pm
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:42 pmAs a family vehicle, the Bolt is absolutely comparable to a base-level Camry, which costs almost exactly the same. The space is packaged very differently (the Bolt is much taller, but much shorter front-to-back), but usable interior space is almost exactly the same, and as I said those used to crossovers will probably prefer the Bolt's seating position and rear liftgate.
I have zero interest in driving either one of them, but "usable interior space" tends to only be looked at for cargo hauling (so, a college student, for instance, might be looking at it to see how much stuff he/she can fit in it). It is otherwise not a metric that buyers look at.

An argument that the Bolt competes for the same buyer pool as the Camry requires pretty extreme contortions. Not that the latter is anything premium, but the Bolt is as economy as one can get, and is also much smaller ("usable interior space" notwithstanding, which is an odd thing to compare). The Bolt's only saving grace is that it is an EV, and the competition among EV's is way more limited than it is among ICE vehicles. If the Bolt had the exact same design but was an ICE vehicle, the overall reaction would be a large yawn, as other than the electric platform, there is nothing that would cause people to prefer it over the competition.
The funny thing about your assertions re: the BMW vs Camry is that EV skeptics upthread strenuously claimed that the Tesla Model 3 is nothing like a BMW 3 Series and basically the same as a Camry, when in market positioning the BMW and Tesla are more similar to each other than either is to a Camry.
I am not quite following your analogy here. What I said earlier was that cars are never cross-shopped solely based on their prices and interior dimensions, as these types of purchases always factor in a number of additional variables.

When you say "market positioning," are you referring to Tesla's desire that the Tesla Model 3 be cross-shopped against the BMW 3-series? I'm sure that's their desire, as it's a much easier sell for them than trying to appeal to the Camry crowd. Tesla is reasonably successful in that, but the data that I've seen shows that it is a minority of their buyers.
The 22 Bolt I have is 'not as economy as one can get' and has comfy, heated leather seats and steering wheel, drivers assistance package with automatic braking, wireless Apple Carplay (or AA), a 10" infotainment screen, Bose speakers, etc. It costs $31k without a rebate, versus $26 for a base Camry. With the recently passed rebate extension, this Bolt will theoretically cost less than a base Camry.

And it is a roomier interior with more legroom and headroom. I have owned both cars. The over all car is shorter, bc there is no engine compartment and trunk, but the cabin is bigger and more comfortable IMO.

The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it.

I guess your typical 'ICE enthusiast' just doesn't understand that.

The great thing about this thread is that it is like whack a mole... an ICE enthusiast specifies a particular metric that ICE vs EV must be judged by... when example EVs are found that are competitive on the metric, other ICE enthusiasts come forward to explain that that metric is unimportant (and that they don't believe the EV is better on that metric also), and a different metric is important. Repeat ad infinitum.

The only metric that ICE cars have on EV cars now is capacity to do long (>300 mile) road-trips with only very short stops, and medium and long distance towing capacity. In every other metric, EV cars are superior to TCO matched ICE cars.

EV trucks are another story, with no inexpensive models currently available.

"The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it."

We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
cmr79
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm
aquaman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:13 pm
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:42 pmAs a family vehicle, the Bolt is absolutely comparable to a base-level Camry, which costs almost exactly the same. The space is packaged very differently (the Bolt is much taller, but much shorter front-to-back), but usable interior space is almost exactly the same, and as I said those used to crossovers will probably prefer the Bolt's seating position and rear liftgate.
I have zero interest in driving either one of them, but "usable interior space" tends to only be looked at for cargo hauling (so, a college student, for instance, might be looking at it to see how much stuff he/she can fit in it). It is otherwise not a metric that buyers look at.

An argument that the Bolt competes for the same buyer pool as the Camry requires pretty extreme contortions. Not that the latter is anything premium, but the Bolt is as economy as one can get, and is also much smaller ("usable interior space" notwithstanding, which is an odd thing to compare). The Bolt's only saving grace is that it is an EV, and the competition among EV's is way more limited than it is among ICE vehicles. If the Bolt had the exact same design but was an ICE vehicle, the overall reaction would be a large yawn, as other than the electric platform, there is nothing that would cause people to prefer it over the competition.
The funny thing about your assertions re: the BMW vs Camry is that EV skeptics upthread strenuously claimed that the Tesla Model 3 is nothing like a BMW 3 Series and basically the same as a Camry, when in market positioning the BMW and Tesla are more similar to each other than either is to a Camry.
I am not quite following your analogy here. What I said earlier was that cars are never cross-shopped solely based on their prices and interior dimensions, as these types of purchases always factor in a number of additional variables.

When you say "market positioning," are you referring to Tesla's desire that the Tesla Model 3 be cross-shopped against the BMW 3-series? I'm sure that's their desire, as it's a much easier sell for them than trying to appeal to the Camry crowd. Tesla is reasonably successful in that, but the data that I've seen shows that it is a minority of their buyers.
The 22 Bolt I have is 'not as economy as one can get' and has comfy, heated leather seats and steering wheel, drivers assistance package with automatic braking, wireless Apple Carplay (or AA), a 10" infotainment screen, Bose speakers, etc. It costs $31k without a rebate, versus $26 for a base Camry. With the recently passed rebate extension, this Bolt will theoretically cost less than a base Camry.

And it is a roomier interior with more legroom and headroom. I have owned both cars. The over all car is shorter, bc there is no engine compartment and trunk, but the cabin is bigger and more comfortable IMO.

The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it.

I guess your typical 'ICE enthusiast' just doesn't understand that.

The great thing about this thread is that it is like whack a mole... an ICE enthusiast specifies a particular metric that ICE vs EV must be judged by... when example EVs are found that are competitive on the metric, other ICE enthusiasts come forward to explain that that metric is unimportant (and that they don't believe the EV is better on that metric also), and a different metric is important. Repeat ad infinitum.

The only metric that ICE cars have on EV cars now is capacity to do long (>300 mile) road-trips with only very short stops, and medium and long distance towing capacity. In every other metric, EV cars are superior to TCO matched ICE cars.

EV trucks are another story, with no inexpensive models currently available.

"The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it."

We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm
aquaman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:13 pm
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:42 pmAs a family vehicle, the Bolt is absolutely comparable to a base-level Camry, which costs almost exactly the same. The space is packaged very differently (the Bolt is much taller, but much shorter front-to-back), but usable interior space is almost exactly the same, and as I said those used to crossovers will probably prefer the Bolt's seating position and rear liftgate.
I have zero interest in driving either one of them, but "usable interior space" tends to only be looked at for cargo hauling (so, a college student, for instance, might be looking at it to see how much stuff he/she can fit in it). It is otherwise not a metric that buyers look at.

An argument that the Bolt competes for the same buyer pool as the Camry requires pretty extreme contortions. Not that the latter is anything premium, but the Bolt is as economy as one can get, and is also much smaller ("usable interior space" notwithstanding, which is an odd thing to compare). The Bolt's only saving grace is that it is an EV, and the competition among EV's is way more limited than it is among ICE vehicles. If the Bolt had the exact same design but was an ICE vehicle, the overall reaction would be a large yawn, as other than the electric platform, there is nothing that would cause people to prefer it over the competition.
The funny thing about your assertions re: the BMW vs Camry is that EV skeptics upthread strenuously claimed that the Tesla Model 3 is nothing like a BMW 3 Series and basically the same as a Camry, when in market positioning the BMW and Tesla are more similar to each other than either is to a Camry.
I am not quite following your analogy here. What I said earlier was that cars are never cross-shopped solely based on their prices and interior dimensions, as these types of purchases always factor in a number of additional variables.

When you say "market positioning," are you referring to Tesla's desire that the Tesla Model 3 be cross-shopped against the BMW 3-series? I'm sure that's their desire, as it's a much easier sell for them than trying to appeal to the Camry crowd. Tesla is reasonably successful in that, but the data that I've seen shows that it is a minority of their buyers.
The 22 Bolt I have is 'not as economy as one can get' and has comfy, heated leather seats and steering wheel, drivers assistance package with automatic braking, wireless Apple Carplay (or AA), a 10" infotainment screen, Bose speakers, etc. It costs $31k without a rebate, versus $26 for a base Camry. With the recently passed rebate extension, this Bolt will theoretically cost less than a base Camry.

And it is a roomier interior with more legroom and headroom. I have owned both cars. The over all car is shorter, bc there is no engine compartment and trunk, but the cabin is bigger and more comfortable IMO.

The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it.

I guess your typical 'ICE enthusiast' just doesn't understand that.

The great thing about this thread is that it is like whack a mole... an ICE enthusiast specifies a particular metric that ICE vs EV must be judged by... when example EVs are found that are competitive on the metric, other ICE enthusiasts come forward to explain that that metric is unimportant (and that they don't believe the EV is better on that metric also), and a different metric is important. Repeat ad infinitum.

The only metric that ICE cars have on EV cars now is capacity to do long (>300 mile) road-trips with only very short stops, and medium and long distance towing capacity. In every other metric, EV cars are superior to TCO matched ICE cars.

EV trucks are another story, with no inexpensive models currently available.

"The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it."

We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
neilpilot
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Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:03 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:50 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:33 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:27 am
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:56 am

The Bolt can seat 4 adults comfortably with generous head and legroom front and back. And has 17 cu ft of cargo space behind the second row. IMO enough for carry on for 4 adults. There would be additional room in the cabin for purses and backpacks.

As I said, I have owned a Camry AND two Bolts. The Bolt cabin is roomier, taller and more comfortable.

I think @Jack has gotten some bad info. The Bolt was a clean build and billed as a compact CUV, not a compact hatch. The Spark was a re-tread of an ICE design, tiny and sold in small numbers.
The reason I asked in because we just looked at a bolt and with the seats up there was not nearly enough room left. We were there with our CX5 and parked right next to the Bolt.
There are a few other ideas above so maybe we can get to look at some other options - often these cars are not in stock and no easy way to look at them.
Did you see on the Bolt that you can remove the cargo shelf in the back and there's a large space beneath? I think you can definitely fit 4 carry-ons standing.
Not sure where you got those figures but check out Alex on Autos' review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj0-R0hSCCE&t=488s

Sure looks like 4 carry-ons will fit.
Storage space - with the seats up in usable position the Bolt is about 16 cubic feet and the CX5 is about 31, the CRV is higher that the CX-5 but we can get along with the storage space of the CX-5 but its tight.
With the rear seats up my ID.4 cargo spec is 30.3 cu ft
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:03 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:50 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:33 am
smitcat wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:27 am

The reason I asked in because we just looked at a bolt and with the seats up there was not nearly enough room left. We were there with our CX5 and parked right next to the Bolt.
There are a few other ideas above so maybe we can get to look at some other options - often these cars are not in stock and no easy way to look at them.
Did you see on the Bolt that you can remove the cargo shelf in the back and there's a large space beneath? I think you can definitely fit 4 carry-ons standing.
Not sure where you got those figures but check out Alex on Autos' review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj0-R0hSCCE&t=488s

Sure looks like 4 carry-ons will fit.
Storage space - with the seats up in usable position the Bolt is about 16 cubic feet and the CX5 is about 31, the CRV is higher that the CX-5 but we can get along with the storage space of the CX-5 but its tight.
With the rear seats up my ID.4 cargo spec is 30.3 cu ft
Yes - agreed that is likely very good for us, thank you.
With the Volks ID4 we are left with these challenges: finding a vehicle near us to look at and/or drive, the cars performance at lower trim levels, and whether or not they will likely qualify for any future rebates
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Yah, shoulder or hip room difference of 4 inches is huge.

As I mentioned, the Bolt is about the size of a Honda Fit.

Shoulder Room Bolt: 54.6"
Shoulder Room Fit: 54.8"

Hip Room Bolt: 51.3"
Hip Room Fit: 51.5"

So very slightly smaller than Honda's tiniest car, the Fit.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:10 am
02nz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am
hunoraut wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:10 am All of us with electric cars have owned traditional cars and so have actual personal experience with all facets on both ends.
That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument. Alone that's no reason for dismissal -- people have the capacity to extrapolate and reason. It's just many obviously do not use this capacity.
Very well put.

One could also say those with EVs are using their own bias to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit ones house for charging.
Math doesn't need experience... Math is math.

I believe many have made a feasible case (for both ICE and EV) based on their current car situation (or their choices of cars they would consider). And that works for them.

an earlier post gets discounted because the person compares their current Nissan Sentra to buying a new EV. Someone says it's ridiculous to compare a Nissan Sentra to a Tesla.. It's not ridiculous if you own and are happy with the Sentra.

This is like 2 people owning the same car and arguing over what the gas mileage is when they both drive completely differently. Your mileage and situation (and ability to pay) may vary.

These discussions almost feel like American politics where both sides are rooted in their own thoughts and can't hear the other side.
I've said repeatedly in this thread that there are plenty of situations in which EVs won't work out financially or for other reasons. But there are people using clearly false arguments against EVs, as well as shifting the goalposts, which is what I took issue with.

Oh, and I have no need to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit for home charging because my EV only cost a bit over $20K after incentives, less than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, and home charging was unnecessary because L1 (regular outlet) fit my needs just fine.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:03 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:03 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:50 am
02nz wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:33 am

Did you see on the Bolt that you can remove the cargo shelf in the back and there's a large space beneath? I think you can definitely fit 4 carry-ons standing.
Not sure where you got those figures but check out Alex on Autos' review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj0-R0hSCCE&t=488s

Sure looks like 4 carry-ons will fit.
Storage space - with the seats up in usable position the Bolt is about 16 cubic feet and the CX5 is about 31, the CRV is higher that the CX-5 but we can get along with the storage space of the CX-5 but its tight.
With the rear seats up my ID.4 cargo spec is 30.3 cu ft
Yes - agreed that is likely very good for us, thank you.
With the Volks ID4 we are left with these challenges: finding a vehicle near us to look at and/or drive, the cars performance at lower trim levels, and whether or not they will likely qualify for any future rebates
Again, can't discuss pending legislation, but I will note that VW has already started production of the ID.4 in their Tennessee plant (current ID.4s are assembled in Germany). However, we don't have the specifics of the origins of the battery and the chemicals in it.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
1moreyr
Posts: 465
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 1moreyr »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:17 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:10 am
02nz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am
hunoraut wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:10 am All of us with electric cars have owned traditional cars and so have actual personal experience with all facets on both ends.
That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument. Alone that's no reason for dismissal -- people have the capacity to extrapolate and reason. It's just many obviously do not use this capacity.
Very well put.

One could also say those with EVs are using their own bias to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit ones house for charging.
Math doesn't need experience... Math is math.

I believe many have made a feasible case (for both ICE and EV) based on their current car situation (or their choices of cars they would consider). And that works for them.

an earlier post gets discounted because the person compares their current Nissan Sentra to buying a new EV. Someone says it's ridiculous to compare a Nissan Sentra to a Tesla.. It's not ridiculous if you own and are happy with the Sentra.

This is like 2 people owning the same car and arguing over what the gas mileage is when they both drive completely differently. Your mileage and situation (and ability to pay) may vary.

These discussions almost feel like American politics where both sides are rooted in their own thoughts and can't hear the other side.
I've said repeatedly in this thread that there are plenty of situations in which EVs won't work out financially or for other reasons. But there are people using clearly false arguments against EVs, as well as shifting the goalposts, which is what I took issue with.

Oh, and I have no need to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit for home charging because my EV only cost a bit over $20K after incentives, less than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, and home charging was unnecessary because L1 (regular outlet) fit my needs just fine.
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
neilpilot
Posts: 5005
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
7eight9
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:17 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:10 am
02nz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am
hunoraut wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:10 am All of us with electric cars have owned traditional cars and so have actual personal experience with all facets on both ends.
That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument. Alone that's no reason for dismissal -- people have the capacity to extrapolate and reason. It's just many obviously do not use this capacity.
Very well put.

One could also say those with EVs are using their own bias to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit ones house for charging.
Math doesn't need experience... Math is math.

I believe many have made a feasible case (for both ICE and EV) based on their current car situation (or their choices of cars they would consider). And that works for them.

an earlier post gets discounted because the person compares their current Nissan Sentra to buying a new EV. Someone says it's ridiculous to compare a Nissan Sentra to a Tesla.. It's not ridiculous if you own and are happy with the Sentra.

This is like 2 people owning the same car and arguing over what the gas mileage is when they both drive completely differently. Your mileage and situation (and ability to pay) may vary.

These discussions almost feel like American politics where both sides are rooted in their own thoughts and can't hear the other side.
I've said repeatedly in this thread that there are plenty of situations in which EVs won't work out financially or for other reasons. But there are people using clearly false arguments against EVs, as well as shifting the goalposts, which is what I took issue with.

Oh, and I have no need to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit for home charging because my EV only cost a bit over $20K after incentives, less than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, and home charging was unnecessary because L1 (regular outlet) fit my needs just fine.
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Your bolded quote was written by another poster, but I agree with it esp. as it applies to this thread. The person didn't say anyone who doesn't want to get an EV right now has zero credibility, just that those who have not lived with one don't have the same level of credibility when they start talking about maintenance costs, the grid being overloaded, battery replacement being needed at 80K miles or whatever. I think that's more than fair, whether it applies to EVs or pretty much any other personal consumer issue.
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
You've repeated this over and over in this thread but can't (or choose not to) even get basic arithmetic correct.

If your Prius C, with 437 miles of EPA-rated range, "could be refueled every two weeks," then you're driving no more than an average of 31 miles a day, assuming you're driving it to its last fumes.

That means you're plugging in the LEAF (EPA rated for 149 miles) at most every 4 days. And that's the lowest-cost, lowest-range LEAF - for almost any other EV on the market, even the $26K Bolt, it would be every 7-8 days. (Oh and yes we know you have to open and close the cabinet, too, no need to mention it again.) :sharebeer

Also worth noting: the LEAF is a much larger vehicle than the Prius C, more than a foot longer. And according to the EPA the LEAF is saving you an average of $750/year in fuel costs. On any other thread here, that would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time for the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 4 days.
Last edited by 02nz on Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:31 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:56 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:31 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
No, not "nearly the same in accleration." Let's work with facts here: the Bolt does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (source: see here and scroll to bottom), while the base (non-turbo) CX-5 needs 8.3 seconds (source). That's the difference between "pretty darn fast" and "kinda slow but not dangerously so."

As for weight: Bolt's curb weight is 3585 lbs, CX-5 3717 to 3836 depending on engine.

The other vehicles I mentioned have tons of luggage space, as much as or more than your CX-5.
billaster
Posts: 2930
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:21 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by billaster »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
At this point in time, I would recommend someone not buy an EV if they do not have an easy way to charge at home -- unless someone is a real EV enthusiast who can tolerate some inconvenience. The convenience of home charging is a big selling point for EVs.

It sounds like you are not a good candidate for an EV with your home charging situation. You should sell it and buy something you like. You can probably get a very good price for a used LEAF at this time.
MGBMartin
Posts: 1145
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:09 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by MGBMartin »

I’ve been reading this thread from the beginning a enjoying some of the back and forth.

A couple of years ago the wife and I bought a 2017 Kia Soul EV not because we needed another car but we just wanted to see what an EV was like.
It was a little under $13k and we knew that it’s range was only 93 miles from new.
I’ve got to say it’s absolutely perfect for us and suits our needs well.
We don’t drive much since retiring, just 2 miles round trip each AM to the park, 6 miles round trip to the grocery once a week and occasional trips to the docs or airport etc. It is definitely not a road trip car and I wouldn’t attempt to travel more than 30 miles from home in it. We charge it via 120v outlet and most charges last about 3 weeks. We do have a gas car should we need it, 2 in fact.

It has definitely convinced us that our next vehicle will be EV even more so now that their range is considerably more.
I understand that EVS no matter the range or practicality are not for everyone but in our case it definitely is.

As I said, we paid about $13k. We know some folks who just bought a 4 seater electric Golf Cart and they paid $12.5k. Lots of folks in my area are buying them. I’m just waiting for one of them to tell me they spent $12,500 on a golf cart so as to save money on gas.
Bad spellers of the world untie | Autocorrect is my worst enema
psteinx
Posts: 5801
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

One's perspective on vehicles can be skewed based on where one lives - the surrounding infrastructure and so on:

* DD recently moved from here (Missouri) to Bay Area, California. Says chargers are everywhere - stores, tech workplaces and so on. That would obviously make EVs relatively more attractive. I also get the sense that Bay Area folks don't take very long driving trips. To the west is the ocean. To the south is SoCal, but it's not *very* far, then Mexico. To the east is Tahoe/Reno, but then lots of desert. And to the north is pretty, but sparsely populated. There's also, I'd guess, a pretty solid charging network along the few major travel routes (S.F.->SoCal, S.F.->Sacr/Tahoe). SoCal is even more boxed in, making long distance travel likely rare, except to the Bay Area, and, to a lesser extent, Phoenix and Vegas.

* In the midwest, EV chargers are not too common, especially free ones (though they do exist). And folks can, and do, drive to all points on the compass, with many/most folks taking LONG road trips from time to time. Not nearly as conducive to EVs. Also, lots of medium to large-ish families (4+), conducive to medium+ SUVs and minivans, a category thinly penetrated by EVs, so far.

* In ~2019, we took a family trip to Europe (Paris, etc.), and rented a vehicle. The rental place gave me a free upgrade to a ~mid-sized SUV - what would be a rather typical vehicle in the US, but is rare in Europe. It was actually a bit of a nightmare - European parking garages are NOT designed for big vehicles, and trying to get this thing around without bumping stuff was pretty scary. Plus narrow-ish streets, etc. When you add in the high gas prices, one can see why Europeans embrace much smaller vehicles than Americans.
Last edited by psteinx on Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
7eight9
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:48 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
You've repeated this over and over in this thread but can't (or choose not to) even get basic arithmetic correct.

If your Prius C, with 437 miles of EPA-rated range, "could be refueled every two weeks," then you're driving no more than an average of 31 miles a day, assuming you're driving it to its last fumes.

That means you're plugging in the LEAF (EPA rated for 149 miles) at most every 4 days. And that's the lowest-cost, lowest-range LEAF - for almost any other EV on the market, even the $26K Bolt, it would be every 7-8 days. (Oh and yes we know you have to open and close the cabinet, too, no need to mention it again.) :sharebeer

Also worth noting: the LEAF is a much larger vehicle than the Prius C, more than a foot longer. And according to the EPA the LEAF is saving you an average of $750/year in fuel costs. On any other thread here, that would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time for the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 4 days.
I don't believe it is me who can't do the math.

As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.

Prius C. 9.5 gallon tank. My lifetime average was 47.6 mpg. 200-205 miles of commuting a week. You can do the math.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
audioengr
Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:44 am
Location: Knoxville

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by audioengr »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:59 am "To be clear - the bill in Congress has not yet fully passed and been signed into law. We can't say more than that for now."
I do not believe any currently produced cars will qualify for an extension of the rebates regardless of if or when this passes.
Do you have better information on which vehicles may qualify?
List of Models - ignore Lucid Air and Tesla Model S & X - don't qualify based on cost
https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qual ... 1849391274

TLDR:
Price Limits: $55K for Cars, $80K for SUVs

Cadillac Lyriq - SUV - starts at $62,990 - built in Spring Hill, TN
Chevy Bolt EUV - Car - starts at $27,200 - built in Michigan
Chevy Bolt EV - Car - starts at $25,600 - built in Michigan
Ford F-150 Lightning - Truck - starts at $46,974 - built in Dearborn, MI
Ford Mustang Mach-E - SUV - starts at $43,895 - built in Mexico (OK due to free-trade agreement)
GMC Hummer EV - SUV - starts at $84,650 (2024) - built in Detroit, MI (should be above the price limit)
Nissan Leaf - Car - starts at $27,800 - built in Smyrna, TN
Rivian R1S - SUV - starts at $72,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Rivian R1T - Truck - starts at $67,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Telsa Model 3 - Car - starts at $46,990 - built in California (all US-Bound Teslas currently built in US)
Tesla Model Y - SUV - starts at $65,990 - built in California
Volkswagen ID.4 (2023 model) - SUV - starts at $37,495 - built in Chattanooga, TN

Best explanation I've seen:
https://news.yahoo.com/evs-qualify-elec ... 24925.html
sc9182
Posts: 2178
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by sc9182 »

audioengr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:08 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:59 am "To be clear - the bill in Congress has not yet fully passed and been signed into law. We can't say more than that for now."
I do not believe any currently produced cars will qualify for an extension of the rebates regardless of if or when this passes.
Do you have better information on which vehicles may qualify?
List of Models - ignore Lucid Air and Tesla Model S & X - don't qualify based on cost
https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qual ... 1849391274

TLDR:
Price Limits: $55K for Cars, $80K for SUVs

Cadillac Lyriq - SUV - starts at $62,990 - built in Spring Hill, TN
Chevy Bolt EUV - Car - starts at $27,200 - built in Michigan
Chevy Bolt EV - Car - starts at $25,600 - built in Michigan
Ford F-150 Lightning - Truck - starts at $46,974 - built in Dearborn, MI
Ford Mustang Mach-E - SUV - starts at $43,895 - built in Mexico (OK due to free-trade agreement)
GMC Hummer EV - SUV - starts at $84,650 (2024) - built in Detroit, MI (should be above the price limit)
Nissan Leaf - Car - starts at $27,800 - built in Smyrna, TN
Rivian R1S - SUV - starts at $72,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Rivian R1T - Truck - starts at $67,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Telsa Model 3 - Car - starts at $46,990 - built in California (all US-Bound Teslas currently built in US)
Tesla Model Y - SUV - starts at $65,990 - built in California
Volkswagen ID.4 (2023 model) - SUV - starts at $37,495 - built in Chattanooga, TN

Best explanation I've seen:
https://news.yahoo.com/evs-qualify-elec ... 24925.html
Also don't forget income caps (modified AGI limits) of buyer .. some boglehead's won't qualify :-)
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

audioengr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:08 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:59 am "To be clear - the bill in Congress has not yet fully passed and been signed into law. We can't say more than that for now."
I do not believe any currently produced cars will qualify for an extension of the rebates regardless of if or when this passes.
Do you have better information on which vehicles may qualify?
List of Models - ignore Lucid Air and Tesla Model S & X - don't qualify based on cost
https://jalopnik.com/every-ev-that-qual ... 1849391274

TLDR:
Price Limits: $55K for Cars, $80K for SUVs

Cadillac Lyriq - SUV - starts at $62,990 - built in Spring Hill, TN
Chevy Bolt EUV - Car - starts at $27,200 - built in Michigan
Chevy Bolt EV - Car - starts at $25,600 - built in Michigan
Ford F-150 Lightning - Truck - starts at $46,974 - built in Dearborn, MI
Ford Mustang Mach-E - SUV - starts at $43,895 - built in Mexico (OK due to free-trade agreement)
GMC Hummer EV - SUV - starts at $84,650 (2024) - built in Detroit, MI (should be above the price limit)
Nissan Leaf - Car - starts at $27,800 - built in Smyrna, TN
Rivian R1S - SUV - starts at $72,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Rivian R1T - Truck - starts at $67,500 - built in Normal, Illinois
Telsa Model 3 - Car - starts at $46,990 - built in California (all US-Bound Teslas currently built in US)
Tesla Model Y - SUV - starts at $65,990 - built in California
Volkswagen ID.4 (2023 model) - SUV - starts at $37,495 - built in Chattanooga, TN

Best explanation I've seen:
https://news.yahoo.com/evs-qualify-elec ... 24925.html
Thank you for a factual and helpful answer and link....it is appreciated.
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:48 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
You've repeated this over and over in this thread but can't (or choose not to) even get basic arithmetic correct.

If your Prius C, with 437 miles of EPA-rated range, "could be refueled every two weeks," then you're driving no more than an average of 31 miles a day, assuming you're driving it to its last fumes.

That means you're plugging in the LEAF (EPA rated for 149 miles) at most every 4 days. And that's the lowest-cost, lowest-range LEAF - for almost any other EV on the market, even the $26K Bolt, it would be every 7-8 days. (Oh and yes we know you have to open and close the cabinet, too, no need to mention it again.) :sharebeer

Also worth noting: the LEAF is a much larger vehicle than the Prius C, more than a foot longer. And according to the EPA the LEAF is saving you an average of $750/year in fuel costs. On any other thread here, that would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time for the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 4 days.
I don't believe it is me who can't do the math.

As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.

Prius C. 9.5 gallon tank. My lifetime average was 47.6 mpg. 200-205 miles of commuting a week. You can do the math.
Your choice not to get L2 charging. I don't have L2 charging either, L1 serves my needs fine, but then I don't complain about having to plug / unplug, which adds maybe 20 seconds total - that's less time overall, even assuming you do it every day, than stopping at the gas station once every 2 weeks, and seems like a negligible amount of work for saving $750 in fuel costs alone every year.

Do whatever works for you - I don't get why you're writing many posts here about how the LEAF requires you to open/close a cabinet door and plug/unplug a charging cord (if there was another problem with your LEAF I certainly missed it), rather than just selling it for a profit and getting the Prius C of your dreams.
Last edited by 02nz on Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:05 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:56 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:31 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am

Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
No, not "nearly the same in accleration." Let's work with facts here: the Bolt does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (source: see here and scroll to bottom), while the base (non-turbo) CX-5 needs 8.3 seconds (source). That's the difference between "pretty darn fast" and "kinda slow but not dangerously so."

As for weight: Bolt's curb weight is 3585 lbs, CX-5 3717 to 3836 depending on engine.

The other vehicles I mentioned have tons of luggage space, as much as or more than your CX-5.
We are not shopping new Mazda's - ours are both 2019. We are considering replacing one or both of them with an EV if that makes sense in our case.
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:05 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:56 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:31 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am

The CX-5 we currently own.
The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
No, not "nearly the same in accleration." Let's work with facts here: the Bolt does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (source: see here and scroll to bottom), while the base (non-turbo) CX-5 needs 8.3 seconds (source). That's the difference between "pretty darn fast" and "kinda slow but not dangerously so."

As for weight: Bolt's curb weight is 3585 lbs, CX-5 3717 to 3836 depending on engine.

The other vehicles I mentioned have tons of luggage space, as much as or more than your CX-5.
We are not shopping new Mazda's - ours are both 2019. We are considering replacing one or both of them with an EV if that makes sense in our case.
Yes I know that. Just prefer that we use correct information.
mervinj7
Posts: 2496
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mervinj7 »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.
You should definitely sell your Leaf. Check out the resale value on Carvana and report back. Mine is $5k more than I paid for it two years ago! I would sell immediately but I don't have a good EV replacement option for my Leaf. I'm on the waiting list for the 2023 ID4 but I just found out recently my dealer will charge me more than MSRP despite making a reservation.
7eight9
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

mervinj7 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:42 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.
You should definitely sell your Leaf. Check out the resale value on Carvana and report back. Mine is $5k more than I paid for it two years ago! I would sell immediately but I don't have a good EV replacement option for my Leaf. I'm on the waiting list for the 2023 ID4 but I just found out recently my dealer will charge me more than MSRP despite making a reservation.
I did look at Carvana the other day. Both by VIN and plate they recognized the car but wouldn't make an offer unless I created and account and called them. Probably because the Leaf has never been titled - it is still on the MSO. Maybe this weekend I'll give it another go and see if I can get an offer.

Do you know if I will still qualify for the $7,500 tax credit if I sell the car in the year I bought it? My understanding is that I will.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
7eight9
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 7:11 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:34 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:48 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
You've repeated this over and over in this thread but can't (or choose not to) even get basic arithmetic correct.

If your Prius C, with 437 miles of EPA-rated range, "could be refueled every two weeks," then you're driving no more than an average of 31 miles a day, assuming you're driving it to its last fumes.

That means you're plugging in the LEAF (EPA rated for 149 miles) at most every 4 days. And that's the lowest-cost, lowest-range LEAF - for almost any other EV on the market, even the $26K Bolt, it would be every 7-8 days. (Oh and yes we know you have to open and close the cabinet, too, no need to mention it again.) :sharebeer

Also worth noting: the LEAF is a much larger vehicle than the Prius C, more than a foot longer. And according to the EPA the LEAF is saving you an average of $750/year in fuel costs. On any other thread here, that would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time for the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 4 days.
I don't believe it is me who can't do the math.

As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.

Prius C. 9.5 gallon tank. My lifetime average was 47.6 mpg. 200-205 miles of commuting a week. You can do the math.
Your choice not to get L2 charging. I don't have L2 charging either, L1 serves my needs fine, but then I don't complain about having to plug / unplug, which adds maybe 20 seconds total - that's less time overall, even assuming you do it every day, than stopping at the gas station once every 2 weeks, and seems like a negligible amount of work for saving $750 in fuel costs alone every year.

Do whatever works for you - I don't get why you're writing many posts here about how the LEAF requires you to open/close a cabinet door and plug/unplug a charging cord (if there was another problem with your LEAF I certainly missed it), rather than just selling it for a profit and getting the Prius C of your dreams.
Unfortunately Toyota stopped making the Prius C in 2019. In my opinion it was a great little car.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
mervinj7
Posts: 2496
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mervinj7 »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:48 am
mervinj7 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:42 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.
You should definitely sell your Leaf. Check out the resale value on Carvana and report back. Mine is $5k more than I paid for it two years ago! I would sell immediately but I don't have a good EV replacement option for my Leaf. I'm on the waiting list for the 2023 ID4 but I just found out recently my dealer will charge me more than MSRP despite making a reservation.
I did look at Carvana the other day. Both by VIN and plate they recognized the car but wouldn't make an offer unless I created and account and called them. Probably because the Leaf has never been titled - it is still on the MSO. Maybe this weekend I'll give it another go and see if I can get an offer.

Do you know if I will still qualify for the $7,500 tax credit if I sell the car in the year I bought it? My understanding is that I will.
I'm not sure. I waited till 3 years had passed before I sold my last Leaf. I'm only at the 2.5 year mark for my current one, so it would be safer to wait another 6 months (at least for me). Hopefully, by then my ID4 will be ready and the timing will line up.
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:49 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:34 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:48 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:31 am

In my case --- The 2022 Leaf S has a 150 mile range. With a 40+ mile round trip commute (and no opportunity to charge at work) it needs to be charged at a minimum every three days (and that is leaving very little in the "tank"). Realistically, charging every other day.

The Leaf replaced a totaled Prius C that had a 450 mile range (our Camry has an even longer range). It could be fueled every two weeks. Frankly the constant charging is a pain. The Leaf was a rushed purchase that wasn't thought out well.
You've repeated this over and over in this thread but can't (or choose not to) even get basic arithmetic correct.

If your Prius C, with 437 miles of EPA-rated range, "could be refueled every two weeks," then you're driving no more than an average of 31 miles a day, assuming you're driving it to its last fumes.

That means you're plugging in the LEAF (EPA rated for 149 miles) at most every 4 days. And that's the lowest-cost, lowest-range LEAF - for almost any other EV on the market, even the $26K Bolt, it would be every 7-8 days. (Oh and yes we know you have to open and close the cabinet, too, no need to mention it again.) :sharebeer

Also worth noting: the LEAF is a much larger vehicle than the Prius C, more than a foot longer. And according to the EPA the LEAF is saving you an average of $750/year in fuel costs. On any other thread here, that would be hailed as the greatest bargain of all time for the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 4 days.
I don't believe it is me who can't do the math.

As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.

Prius C. 9.5 gallon tank. My lifetime average was 47.6 mpg. 200-205 miles of commuting a week. You can do the math.
Your choice not to get L2 charging. I don't have L2 charging either, L1 serves my needs fine, but then I don't complain about having to plug / unplug, which adds maybe 20 seconds total - that's less time overall, even assuming you do it every day, than stopping at the gas station once every 2 weeks, and seems like a negligible amount of work for saving $750 in fuel costs alone every year.

Do whatever works for you - I don't get why you're writing many posts here about how the LEAF requires you to open/close a cabinet door and plug/unplug a charging cord (if there was another problem with your LEAF I certainly missed it), rather than just selling it for a profit and getting the Prius C of your dreams.
Unfortunately Toyota stopped making the Prius C in 2019. In my opinion it was a great little car.
It's available used. Since this forum is supposed to be actionable: It really does seem like you'll be much happier with it, because it appears the effort of opening/closing a cabinet door and plugging/unplugging the charging cord every 2-5 days is an unacceptable downside of living with EVs to you, and that's fine.
smitcat
Posts: 13300
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:37 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:05 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:56 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:31 am

The Bolt definitely accelerates faster than the CX-5 with base engine. You have to step up to the turbo - that's $38K and up - to out-accelerate the Bolt.

If you need the space of the CX-5, then you need to look at a minimum a size larger, at something like the Niro EV (which is still sized closer to the CX-30) or the Ioniq 5, EV6, Mach-E, ID.4, most of which will have somewhat more interior space than the CX-5.
Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
No, not "nearly the same in accleration." Let's work with facts here: the Bolt does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (source: see here and scroll to bottom), while the base (non-turbo) CX-5 needs 8.3 seconds (source). That's the difference between "pretty darn fast" and "kinda slow but not dangerously so."

As for weight: Bolt's curb weight is 3585 lbs, CX-5 3717 to 3836 depending on engine.

The other vehicles I mentioned have tons of luggage space, as much as or more than your CX-5.
We are not shopping new Mazda's - ours are both 2019. We are considering replacing one or both of them with an EV if that makes sense in our case.
Yes I know that. Just prefer that we use correct information.
Our Mazda’s are at 8.3 and 6.5 seconds.
2019 Mazda CX-5 Turbo First Test: It's All About You (motortrend.com)

What is the deal with car insurance and EV’s , seems to be a good deal higher…
Do Electric Vehicles Cost More to Insure? How Much More? | MoneyGeek.com
https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/aut ... nce-costs/
02nz
Posts: 10508
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:03 pm
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:37 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:35 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:05 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:56 am

Yeah - the Bolt will be nearly the same in acceleration if you have a non turbo CX5, the added weight make the driving experience much less appealing.
Our CX5 was much less than $38K when we bought it in 2019.
The luggage space of the CX5 is the minimum we are looking for, that is when all the seats are up. More space would be good but the space in the CX5 will work. In this same post there were comments that the Bolt would satisfy that space requirement perhaps even you had made that assumption. Yesterday we went to see a Bolt at a local dealer and the luggage space is not even close.
Will any of these ...Niro, Ioniq5, EV6, MachE, ID4 have that minimum luggae space along with the performance of at least the base CX5?
No, not "nearly the same in accleration." Let's work with facts here: the Bolt does 0-60 in 6.7 seconds (source: see here and scroll to bottom), while the base (non-turbo) CX-5 needs 8.3 seconds (source). That's the difference between "pretty darn fast" and "kinda slow but not dangerously so."

As for weight: Bolt's curb weight is 3585 lbs, CX-5 3717 to 3836 depending on engine.

The other vehicles I mentioned have tons of luggage space, as much as or more than your CX-5.
We are not shopping new Mazda's - ours are both 2019. We are considering replacing one or both of them with an EV if that makes sense in our case.
Yes I know that. Just prefer that we use correct information.
Our Mazda’s are at 8.3 and 6.5 seconds.
2019 Mazda CX-5 Turbo First Test: It's All About You (motortrend.com)

What is the deal with car insurance and EV’s , seems to be a good deal higher…
Do Electric Vehicles Cost More to Insure? How Much More? | MoneyGeek.com
https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/aut ... nce-costs/
Yes as I already noted, only the turbo CX-5 has acceleration comparable to a the Bolt EV. As for insurance costs, you can either go with figures from some internet article about some average from some years ago or perhaps call up your insurance company to get an actual quote.
1moreyr
Posts: 465
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:10 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 1moreyr »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:24 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Please try not to exaggerate to support your position.

While it obviously depends on your particular cars, my ICE and EV are about the same size. Give the relative efficiencies, a more correct comparison would be either:

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car once a week vs filling it twice a month.

or

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car three times a week vs filling it six times a month.

Take your pick.
i was not exaggerating, i was referring about an earlier post that someone said they found it annoying to have to unwind the cord and charge the vehicle X times a week. (I believe 7eight9) Someone made fun of him for that. ( he has responded but I don't care enough to confirm the exact quote or if it was him at this point.)

regardless, I am getting off the Dogma train. This thread has run it's useful life and I have no more to add
Last edited by 1moreyr on Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1moreyr
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 1moreyr »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:43 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:07 am
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:17 am
1moreyr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:10 am
02nz wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:13 am

Very well put.

One could also say those with EVs are using their own bias to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit ones house for charging.
Math doesn't need experience... Math is math.

I believe many have made a feasible case (for both ICE and EV) based on their current car situation (or their choices of cars they would consider). And that works for them.

an earlier post gets discounted because the person compares their current Nissan Sentra to buying a new EV. Someone says it's ridiculous to compare a Nissan Sentra to a Tesla.. It's not ridiculous if you own and are happy with the Sentra.

This is like 2 people owning the same car and arguing over what the gas mileage is when they both drive completely differently. Your mileage and situation (and ability to pay) may vary.

These discussions almost feel like American politics where both sides are rooted in their own thoughts and can't hear the other side.
I've said repeatedly in this thread that there are plenty of situations in which EVs won't work out financially or for other reasons. But there are people using clearly false arguments against EVs, as well as shifting the goalposts, which is what I took issue with.

Oh, and I have no need to reinforce a $60K decision plus costs to outfit for home charging because my EV only cost a bit over $20K after incentives, less than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, and home charging was unnecessary because L1 (regular outlet) fit my needs just fine.
You made the argument that unless you personally owned an EV your choices were not credible

"That level of credibility is not there on the other side of the argument"


I merely pointed out the counter argument that many people, after making a decision. fight hard to keep it as the "right decision" regardless of other peoples viewpoints that may have an argument against it.

That even goes to mocking people that don't want to unwind a cord and plug in a car 3 times a week vs filling it twice a month.
Just because it's someone else's annoyance doesn't make it less credible.

We all chose/not chose to buy things for all sorts of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong. My wife will not buy most colors of cars. It's got to be bright and colorful. To me it doesn't matter. That's not an argument i am ever going to win (on many levels :shock: )

I appreciate your viewpoint, I also appreciate all others. Maybe because cars are personal but It's almost like religious/political Dogma reading some of these posts. There seems to be a higher level of emotion here than seen on bond or equity discussions.

(and I don't mean just your posts).
Your bolded quote was written by another poster, but I agree with it esp. as it applies to this thread. The person didn't say anyone who doesn't want to get an EV right now has zero credibility, just that those who have not lived with one don't have the same level of credibility when they start talking about maintenance costs, the grid being overloaded, battery replacement being needed at 80K miles or whatever. I think that's more than fair, whether it applies to EVs or pretty much any other personal consumer issue.
and I apologize for attributing that one to you. That was my mistake. I have no more to add here. After 15-16 pages, Minds are not going to get moved anyway.
gougou
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by gougou »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:54 am
sc9182 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:58 pm If the dust hasn't settled by now - it sure won't settle due to upcoming "possible" legislation.

Having said that - how much can you afford/spend on the luxury you are buying ? At typical mark-ups/high-MSRPs -- neigher Hybrids nor Electrics ROI would be a hard-sell.

But, if/once the gas price was under $2 -- Toyota Prius' (used) were selling for lot cheaper. Don't even count Nissan Leaf - it was being sold/offered for peanuts ..

Now that Gas prices are in $4 or higher, there is a premium on Hybrid/Electric vehicles ..
I agree that US car buyers are sensitive to fuel price swings. Because the US has a lower tax burden on gasoline than any other developed country, the impact of crude oil price volatility is magnified as a percentage of the final retail gasoline price.

I find it hard to believe that $2 gas will be a reality ever again. Only if demand for oil actually started to *fall*. It did that in 2020 with Covid, but it practically never does that otherwise (I am not even sure world demand for crude oil fell 2008-09 but perhaps it did, in the worst global economic crisis since WW2). Many developing countries are now at that phase of development where demand for diesel and gasoline (and jetfuel) keeps rising, almost regardless of price. Ie another $1 of GDP has a relatively large crude oil content - that phase when they build highways, when mass distribution of consumer goods becomes a thing, etc. For developed countries, this curve has flattened out dramatically since 1980 (the Iranian Revolution oil price spike).

The short term sensitivity to gasoline prices is very interesting in that economic theory would lead one to expect it would be much more of a long term thing (ie the response would be quite delayed because buyers would not be sure low/ high prices pertain).

EVs are such a big change in direction that I find it hard to believe it is gas prices that are driving it? People are buying EVs for other reasons. Hybrids, yes.

Shrug. My crystal ball is cloudy.
With technological improvements in shale oil, deep-water oil, and oil sands extraction, the breakeven oil price has been rapidly falling from around $100 in 2014 to $45 in 2021. Many oil companies are minting record profits at the current $100 oil price, and they'll still be highly profitable at $50 to $60 oil.

https://www.rystadenergy.com/newsevents ... et-demand/

The current $100 crude oil translates to about $4 gasoline price. $60 crude oil will get you to $3. Maybe more technological advances (or demand destruction) will push the gasoline prices even lower to around $2.

A $3 gasoline price is very likely in the near future - market is pricing like oil companies' profits are unsustainable.
The sillier the market’s behavior, the greater the opportunity for the business like investor.
psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

gougou wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:03 pmA $3 gasoline price is very likely in the near future - market is pricing like oil companies' profits are unsustainable.
Gasoline prices have already fallen off the peak. Now at ~$3.88 nationally.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GASREGCOVW

Futures prices imply a short term (6-12 months) drop of a further 50 cents or so, and probably more over the longer term.
https://www.barchart.com/futures/quotes ... res-prices

I think it's not unreasonable to use $3 or maybe $3.20 as a stand-in for the national price of gas over the next few years (relevant time window for folks making ICE/EV decision today). Higher in Cali, of course, but also lower in many other parts of the country.
psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

At, let's say, $3.10/gallon average, here are some estimates of the simple cost of fuel:

per mile, per year (with miles/year 6K/10K/14K)

'22 Camry LE/SE (32 MPG*)
$0.097 $581/969/1356

'22 Toyota Prius (52 MPG)
$0.060 $358/596/835

'22 LEAF (62KWH)
$0.047 $279/465/651

'22 Tesla 3 LR AWD
$0.039 $234/390/546

*A '22 Camry hybrid gets 46 MPG, fwiw...

Of course, this is not a complete analysis (maintenance, capital cost, registration/taxes, insurance, etc. all matter, too). Some of these scale reasonably closely with mileage (oil changes for ICE), some more as just a general function of ownership/time.

MPG from government site

I used $.15/KWH for electricity, sorta based on eyeballing this:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Electricity price will also vary in certain ways.
Free charging at work? Lowers cost, obviously.
Use fast charging on the road? Much higher cost (generally), from what I've seen...
Last edited by psteinx on Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mrb09
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mrb09 »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:48 am
mervinj7 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:42 am
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:37 am As I wrote - my commute is 40+ miles (between 40 and 41 if you want to get specific). How often do I need to charge the Leaf? Well, if I started at 100% charge and drove it for 3 days it would have 30 miles of range left. Need to charge on Wednesday night. How fast does it charge? About 5 miles per hour. So, go home, plug it in, and 11 hours later it has 85 mile range. Can I drive it for two more days? Only if I am willing to have 5 mile range left. So I have to charge it again on Thursday. And one final charge on Friday to get back to 100% for the next week. That is 3x a week.
You should definitely sell your Leaf. Check out the resale value on Carvana and report back. Mine is $5k more than I paid for it two years ago! I would sell immediately but I don't have a good EV replacement option for my Leaf. I'm on the waiting list for the 2023 ID4 but I just found out recently my dealer will charge me more than MSRP despite making a reservation.
I did look at Carvana the other day. Both by VIN and plate they recognized the car but wouldn't make an offer unless I created and account and called them. Probably because the Leaf has never been titled - it is still on the MSO. Maybe this weekend I'll give it another go and see if I can get an offer.

Do you know if I will still qualify for the $7,500 tax credit if I sell the car in the year I bought it? My understanding is that I will.
Anecdote: We bought a used 2019 Leaf in July 2021 for $20k from Carmax. We sold our two ICE cars in 2021 and tried a year with one car. The Leaf was great around town, but not for longer trips. We sold it to Caravan for in July 2022 for $24k. Bought a new Ioniq 5, that included the $7500 Fed rebate + $2500 State Instant Rebate.

Back to the savings discussion, our choice was keep the Leaf for around town (we wanted an electric car for reasons) and buy a RAV4/CRV class ICE car for occasional trips (primarily along West Coast Electric Highway), or one car like an Ioniq 5 for both. Given the high resale value of the Leaf, and the nice rebates for the Ioniq 5, it made it cost effective to the do the latter. I'm not claiming that everyone has the same flexibility to go to one car, but we did and it made financial sense.
gougou
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by gougou »

psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:27 pm At, let's say, $3.10/gallon average, here are some estimates of the simple cost of fuel:

per mile, per year (with miles/year 6K/10K/14K)

'22 Camry LE/SE (32 MPG*)
$0.097 $581/969/1356

'22 Toyota Prius (52 MPG)
$0.060 $358/596/835

'22 LEAF (62KWH)
$0.0496 $298/496/694

'22 Tesla 3 LR AWD
$0.0416 $250/416/582

*A '22 Camry hybrid gets 46 MPG, fwiw...

Of course, this is not a complete analysis (maintenance, capital cost, registration/taxes, insurance, etc. all matter, too). Some of these scale reasonably closely with mileage (oil changes for ICE), some more as just a general function of ownership/time.

MPG from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... =sbsSelect

I used $.16/KWH for electricity, sorta based on eyeballing this:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Electricity price will also vary in certain ways.
Free charging at work? Lowers cost, obviously.
Use fast charging on the road? Much higher cost, from what I've seen...
I think you should budget a 10% charging loss for the EVs (add 10% to the electricity price).

And look at that electricity price graph. It is going up strong. Who knows how expensive it is a few years later?

The fuel savings is pretty small nowadays for EVs vs Hybrids. A hundred bucks a year is like a rounding error. Maybe one day Hybrids will be advertised as saving you money vs using electricity :D
The sillier the market’s behavior, the greater the opportunity for the business like investor.
psteinx
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

gougou wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:46 pm I think you should budget a 10% charging loss for the EVs (add 10% to the electricity price).

And look at that electricity price graph. It is going up strong. Who knows how expensive it is a few years later?

The fuel savings is pretty small nowadays for EVs vs Hybrids. A hundred bucks a year is like a rounding error. Maybe one day Hybrids will be advertised as saving you money vs using electricity :D
Since I've mainly been an ICE advocate in this thread I wanted to be conservative. I even edited down my assumed electricity price from 16 to 15 cents after you quoted my post. Electricity really spiked in the last 6-9 months, as did gas, and I assumed at least some of the spike was transitory.

Yeah, there's probably some charging loss on electricity. There's a lot of ways you could tweak the #s, and a lot of things ignored in my analysis. But the basic data - that an efficient hybrid costs very little more than an EV to fuel, does pop nicely from the analysis.
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Atomic
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Atomic »

Little late to the thread, here is my experience. I had a 2008 Toyota Matrix that I initially liked but had grown to hate. In 2018 I upgraded to the 2015 Nissan Leaf.
I drive about 12k/yr and expected to save money on gas, but I didn't appreciate how much I would save until I got into it a bit. Here are the factors that lead to increased savings: 1) My utility offers a time of use rate that is very cheap, at 4.4 cents per kWh. 2) Since it's cheaper to operate than our other car, a Honda Fit, we actually put even more miles on the electric, raising the annual average mileage to over 15k. 3)this one is weird, but once I was on the EV rate tier, the utility let's relatively minor loads meter under the same tier. Suddenly my AC was 1/2 price. I have since electrified my water heater, added my furnace fan and an air source heat pump to that tier. I can't quantify all the savings, but it feels significant.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

gougou wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:46 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:27 pm At, let's say, $3.10/gallon average, here are some estimates of the simple cost of fuel:

per mile, per year (with miles/year 6K/10K/14K)

'22 Camry LE/SE (32 MPG*)
$0.097 $581/969/1356

'22 Toyota Prius (52 MPG)
$0.060 $358/596/835

'22 LEAF (62KWH)
$0.0496 $298/496/694

'22 Tesla 3 LR AWD
$0.0416 $250/416/582

*A '22 Camry hybrid gets 46 MPG, fwiw...

Of course, this is not a complete analysis (maintenance, capital cost, registration/taxes, insurance, etc. all matter, too). Some of these scale reasonably closely with mileage (oil changes for ICE), some more as just a general function of ownership/time.

MPG from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... =sbsSelect

I used $.16/KWH for electricity, sorta based on eyeballing this:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Electricity price will also vary in certain ways.
Free charging at work? Lowers cost, obviously.
Use fast charging on the road? Much higher cost, from what I've seen...
I think you should budget a 10% charging loss for the EVs (add 10% to the electricity price).

And look at that electricity price graph. It is going up strong. Who knows how expensive it is a few years later?

The fuel savings is pretty small nowadays for EVs vs Hybrids. A hundred bucks a year is like a rounding error. Maybe one day Hybrids will be advertised as saving you money vs using electricity :D
The recent increase in electricity prices is a lot lower when you adjust for inflation, and it also reflects the higher cost of natural gas, which is a primary source for electricity generation. Others have already pointed out why it's unlikely for oil prices to fall dramatically while electricity goes up dramatically, so I won't rehash that here.

On hybrids - I actually think they should be promoted a lot more, as they can achieve significant monetary savings and CO2 reductions, esp. when battery production is limited. However, there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest among manufacturers other than Toyota and to a lesser extent Hyundai/Kia, and among the public the interest in EVs seems higher. I don't have the count of models available as hybrids vs those available as EVs, but suspect the latter is growing a lot more quickly than the former.
gougou
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by gougou »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:53 pm
gougou wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:46 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:27 pm At, let's say, $3.10/gallon average, here are some estimates of the simple cost of fuel:

per mile, per year (with miles/year 6K/10K/14K)

'22 Camry LE/SE (32 MPG*)
$0.097 $581/969/1356

'22 Toyota Prius (52 MPG)
$0.060 $358/596/835

'22 LEAF (62KWH)
$0.0496 $298/496/694

'22 Tesla 3 LR AWD
$0.0416 $250/416/582

*A '22 Camry hybrid gets 46 MPG, fwiw...

Of course, this is not a complete analysis (maintenance, capital cost, registration/taxes, insurance, etc. all matter, too). Some of these scale reasonably closely with mileage (oil changes for ICE), some more as just a general function of ownership/time.

MPG from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... =sbsSelect

I used $.16/KWH for electricity, sorta based on eyeballing this:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Electricity price will also vary in certain ways.
Free charging at work? Lowers cost, obviously.
Use fast charging on the road? Much higher cost, from what I've seen...
I think you should budget a 10% charging loss for the EVs (add 10% to the electricity price).

And look at that electricity price graph. It is going up strong. Who knows how expensive it is a few years later?

The fuel savings is pretty small nowadays for EVs vs Hybrids. A hundred bucks a year is like a rounding error. Maybe one day Hybrids will be advertised as saving you money vs using electricity :D
The recent increase in electricity prices is a lot lower when you adjust for inflation, and it also reflects the higher cost of natural gas, which is a primary source for electricity generation. Others have already pointed out why it's unlikely for oil prices to fall dramatically while electricity goes up dramatically, so I won't rehash that here.

On hybrids - I actually think they should be promoted a lot more, as they can achieve significant monetary savings and CO2 reductions, esp. when battery production is limited. However, there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest among manufacturers other than Toyota and to a lesser extent Hyundai/Kia, and among the public the interest in EVs seems higher. I don't have the count of models available as hybrids vs those available as EVs, but suspect the latter is growing a lot more quickly than the former.
Toyota happens to sell a lot of cars and some of the most popular cars. Pretty much all the best-selling Toyota cars have Hybrid versions. I think government should promote buying Hybrids by offering a tax rebate - an upgrade that costs a couple thousand dollars per car cut the total amount of gasoline consumed by 1/3 or more. That seems more effective than offering $7.5K+ for a BEV that still mostly run on natural gas and coal.
The sillier the market’s behavior, the greater the opportunity for the business like investor.
cmr79
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:29 am
cmr79 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:27 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:08 am
just frank wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:22 pm
aquaman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:13 pm I have zero interest in driving either one of them, but "usable interior space" tends to only be looked at for cargo hauling (so, a college student, for instance, might be looking at it to see how much stuff he/she can fit in it). It is otherwise not a metric that buyers look at.

An argument that the Bolt competes for the same buyer pool as the Camry requires pretty extreme contortions. Not that the latter is anything premium, but the Bolt is as economy as one can get, and is also much smaller ("usable interior space" notwithstanding, which is an odd thing to compare). The Bolt's only saving grace is that it is an EV, and the competition among EV's is way more limited than it is among ICE vehicles. If the Bolt had the exact same design but was an ICE vehicle, the overall reaction would be a large yawn, as other than the electric platform, there is nothing that would cause people to prefer it over the competition.

I am not quite following your analogy here. What I said earlier was that cars are never cross-shopped solely based on their prices and interior dimensions, as these types of purchases always factor in a number of additional variables.

When you say "market positioning," are you referring to Tesla's desire that the Tesla Model 3 be cross-shopped against the BMW 3-series? I'm sure that's their desire, as it's a much easier sell for them than trying to appeal to the Camry crowd. Tesla is reasonably successful in that, but the data that I've seen shows that it is a minority of their buyers.
The 22 Bolt I have is 'not as economy as one can get' and has comfy, heated leather seats and steering wheel, drivers assistance package with automatic braking, wireless Apple Carplay (or AA), a 10" infotainment screen, Bose speakers, etc. It costs $31k without a rebate, versus $26 for a base Camry. With the recently passed rebate extension, this Bolt will theoretically cost less than a base Camry.

And it is a roomier interior with more legroom and headroom. I have owned both cars. The over all car is shorter, bc there is no engine compartment and trunk, but the cabin is bigger and more comfortable IMO.

The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it.

I guess your typical 'ICE enthusiast' just doesn't understand that.

The great thing about this thread is that it is like whack a mole... an ICE enthusiast specifies a particular metric that ICE vs EV must be judged by... when example EVs are found that are competitive on the metric, other ICE enthusiasts come forward to explain that that metric is unimportant (and that they don't believe the EV is better on that metric also), and a different metric is important. Repeat ad infinitum.

The only metric that ICE cars have on EV cars now is capacity to do long (>300 mile) road-trips with only very short stops, and medium and long distance towing capacity. In every other metric, EV cars are superior to TCO matched ICE cars.

EV trucks are another story, with no inexpensive models currently available.

"The fact that the Bolt is an EV is a positive bc it has better acceleration, better traction, is more fun to drive, quieter interior (a luxury feature), and is cheaper to drive and lower maintenance to boot. Don't know why you would say that 'its only saving grace is that it is an EV' which is like the 'only saying grace of a sports car is that it has a lot of horsepower'. If you put a tiny 4-cylinder engine in a sports car, no one would want to buy it."

We have not been able to drive a bolt yet - we were looking forward to trying one out until we figured out the storage space behind the seats was just too small. But comparing the numbers and the reviews the Bolt would fall short in acceleration, traction, and fun to drive categories.
Compared to what?
The CX-5 we currently own.
The base model CX-5 is slower 0-60 than the both the Bolt EV and EUV. Perhaps you have the CX-5 Turbo, though that costs about $10k more. I'm assuming by "traction" you mean lack of AWD, which is a valid complaint (though a somewhat overrated trait for most use cases). Fun to drive is purely subjective--can't argue with that though if that was your opinion.
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

Market trends have been unkind to hybrids, called HEVs, versus plug-in hybrids PHEVs and Battery electrics, BEVs.

HEVs are the older and quite mature tech, and a great way to save energy (through regen braking and ICE engine throttling). In an expensive battery world, they make sense great sense.

Like EVs, many/most buyers of HEVs were driven my ecological concerns, bc the higher costs of the HEV drivetrain only barely covers the higher cost of purchase (depending on price of gas and miles driven/year). There was a lot of misinformation about HEV batteries being eco disasters, super expensive to replace and short lived, etc, which scared a lot of people away from buying them. Remember that stuff 10-20 years ago? I do. Bc of this, a lot of HEV buyers were eco folks (less worried about TCO) or super-commuters who could pencil out the lower TCO in their use cases.

PHEVs are a gateway to EVs, being basically a HEV with a plug. Not quite true, bc the electric drivetrain needs to be upsized (battery and motor) to provide full propulsion, not just augmentation. But still, a relatively minor switch. In an expensive battery (or cheap gas, expensive electricity) world, this is not a good move relative to HEV. But as batteries get cheaper... PHEVs will pencil out better. But PHEVs share with HEVs high complexity and maintenance (ICE drivetrain), mass, etc.

In a cheap battery (and cheap kWh versus gas) world, BEVs win on TCO vs PHEVs and HEVs bc of their low complexity and low maintenance.

Sadly for the Prius, many of the same eco-minded folks that were early adopters of HEVs became early adopters of PHEVs and BEVs instead. Very few folks skipped from SUVs to LEAFs, LOL. So market share for HEVs (leaving aside mild hybrids) peaked years ago. They might still 'pencil out' for many use cases relative to ICE cars, but there are too few buyers... folks are either all in on heavier ICE cars, or going for PHEVs and BEVs. Part of this is eco-mindedness, and part of it is use cases. A heavy commuter case where an HEV beats an ICE car, a BEV will likely beat the HEV due to lower complexity. And a use case where an ICE car previously beat the HEV (heavy towing), the ICE still beats the BEV.

This was NOT true when batteries were more expensive... but once they crossed a threshold a few years ago, the HEV TCO got boxed out on both sides.

Toyota had a huge success with being an HEV leader. Twenty years ago, they looked at using Lithium batteries for the Prius, and the engineers convinced themselves that it was a terrible idea (mostly fire safety concerns). And this idea 'lithium bad' got ingrained at Toyota engineering and mgmt (they sank a lot of money on the research). So even as Tesla and Nissan and GM were fielding lithium BEVs and PHEVs, Toyota was convinced that they would never work. Or if they did work, lithium would soon get replaced by hydrogen. So Toyota acted for a long time like they could leapfrog from NiMH batteries (in the Prius) straight to Hydrogen cars (FCVs). And in this way a smart tech leading company is now bringing up the rear.

Toyota only switched to Lithium in the Prius a few years ago. Which is nuts given that lots of other makers were using lithium wo major problems for close to a decade before that. They are still investing hugely in Hydrogen. We will see how that works out.

Sadly, Toyota has started a PR effort to call their HEV cars 'self-charging EVs'. Good luck to them.

Toyota DID launch their very first BEV this year, after nearly all the other legacy makers. It is poorly reviewed, and had a recall about the wheels falling off shortly after launch. Maybe they will catch up....
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