Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

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Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Californiastate »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm
Californiastate wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:31 pmMy current schedule doesn't revolve around the fueling of our vehicles. I don't see the incentive to settle for a less convenient option.
Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
psteinx
Posts: 5785
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by psteinx »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?
Right at the end of the quoted bit above:
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
It's about time per cycle, AND # of cycles.

The basic action of connecting, then disconnecting, an electric charger is not altogether different from inserting, then removing, a gas pump.

Certainly, there's more to pumping gas (pulling in and exiting from the station, fussing with your credit card) but not THAT much more, if the station is conveniently located (and I suspect most ICE drivers have their convenient favorite station). And not every detached homeowner has an unoccupied garage that they use for their primary commuting vehicle, so sometimes additional navigational issues are at play with charging, again, not so unlike navigating in by a gas pump (maybe easier, if you have to move a different vehicle out of your garage or driveway before getting your EV in).
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm
Californiastate wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:31 pmMy current schedule doesn't revolve around the fueling of our vehicles. I don't see the incentive to settle for a less convenient option.
Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
I don't know that anybody called it difficult, but it doesn't happen instantaneously like magic. It does take some time and effort. It has never crossed my mind that fueling an ICE car is difficult or inconvenient either, it takes our family all of 5 minutes max every ~3 weeks and there are half a dozen gas stations that I can practically see from my front door. I can't recall a single time in my life I waited to pump gas (I don't go to Costco, it isn't the cheapest gas around here). I believe all that psteinx was pointing out was that if you are going to discuss the time/effort needed to fuel an ICE car, you can't just disregard the time/effort involved in fueling an EV (no matter how minimal).

The hassle of fueling either is a total wash for me; neither takes a meaningful amount of time or effort in the vast majority of situations. The outlier situations being fueling an EV on a road trip or if you do not have home-charging available.
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squirrel1963
Posts: 1253
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Location: Portland OR area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
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squirrel1963
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:12 am
Location: Portland OR area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

stoptothink wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:50 pm I don't know that anybody called it difficult, but it doesn't happen instantaneously like magic. It does take some time and effort. It has never crossed my mind that fueling an ICE car is difficult or inconvenient either, it takes our family all of 5 minutes max every ~3 weeks and there are half a dozen gas stations that I can practically see from my front door. I can't recall a single time in my life I waited to pump gas (I don't go to Costco, it isn't the cheapest gas around here). I believe all that psteinx was pointing out was that if you are going to discuss the time/effort needed to fuel an ICE car, you can't just disregard the time/effort involved in fueling an EV (no matter how minimal).

The hassle of fueling either is a total wash for me; neither takes a meaningful amount of time or effort in the vast majority of situations. The outlier situations being fueling an EV on a road trip or if you do not have home-charging available.
Sure this is what it probably comes down to for most people. The convenience of home charging is counterbalanced by the inconvenience of fast charging for long trips, and because local use is the majority of the use for most people, then for most people it probably comes down to being a wash so I agree with you.

Most people who are EV-hesitant though simply cite the inconvenience of fast charging during long trips and don't consider the convenience of home charging. You statement applies both ways :beer . The conclusion will be different for different people, depending on which aspect they are the most.
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Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Californiastate »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm

EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
neilpilot
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm

I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:08 pm
stoptothink wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:50 pm I don't know that anybody called it difficult, but it doesn't happen instantaneously like magic. It does take some time and effort. It has never crossed my mind that fueling an ICE car is difficult or inconvenient either, it takes our family all of 5 minutes max every ~3 weeks and there are half a dozen gas stations that I can practically see from my front door. I can't recall a single time in my life I waited to pump gas (I don't go to Costco, it isn't the cheapest gas around here). I believe all that psteinx was pointing out was that if you are going to discuss the time/effort needed to fuel an ICE car, you can't just disregard the time/effort involved in fueling an EV (no matter how minimal).

The hassle of fueling either is a total wash for me; neither takes a meaningful amount of time or effort in the vast majority of situations. The outlier situations being fueling an EV on a road trip or if you do not have home-charging available.
Sure this is what it probably comes down to for most people. The convenience of home charging is counterbalanced by the inconvenience of fast charging for long trips, and because local use is the majority of the use for most people, then for most people it probably comes down to being a wash so I agree with you.

Most people who are EV-hesitant though simply cite the inconvenience of fast charging during long trips and don't consider the convenience of home charging. You statement applies both ways :beer . The conclusion will be different for different people, depending on which aspect they are the most.
I believe that is all that psteinx was saying: the fueling "issues" (no matter how trivial) apply both ways. It's no different than 95% of threads on this board: we'll argue for pages, but the best answer for you depends on your specific situation.
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Californiastate »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm

Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
neilpilot
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm

Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
aquaman
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by aquaman »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
I think that the EV owners undercut their own argument about the pros of EV's when they overdramatize the gas station experience and start calculating the total amount of time that it takes an average ICE owner to fill up in a given year, talk about "breathing in gas station fumes" and make similar statements. There are plenty of real, legitimate, widely agreed upon merits to EV's, but when people talk about "smiling as they drive past the gas station they no longer need to go to," they divert the focus away from those merits and, instead, come off as trying to create whatever arguments they can, no matter how weak or desperate, to make their point.

Having said all that, I do actually think that many ICE owners don't fully appreciate the convenience of charging at home, but for reasons that have nothing to do with the above. Instead, as folks have very appropriately pointed out upthread, the biggest benefit to home charging is the fact that you always leave your house will a "full tank," so that you don't need nearly as many fast chargers out there as there are gas stations to enable you to make longer trips. That is by far the biggest benefit to home charging. The second one is the fact that home charging is usually much cheaper than doing so on the road (unless you have free destination charging or have an older Tesla with free supercharging), although, with relatively infrequent long road trips, that's usually not the biggest consideration.

The simple truth, however, is that right now the fast charging network out there is incredibly limited, especially if you don't have a Tesla. Even with a Tesla, which has the best fast charging network, the charging experience on the road is going to be rather dramatically different and significantly less flexible than what you have with an ICE vehicle. Even with a Tesla, you are very likely to be forced to take a detour of some length to get to a fast charger (Tesla calculates it automatically for you, so you don't have to manually figure it out, but it will take additional time) and EV charging times are significantly longer than a gas station fill up would take (EV owners rightfully point out that it's not always meaningful, as you may've wanted to go in to grab a bite to eat, to stretch your legs, etc... that's all true, but with an EV you don't have the flexibility not to). Likewise, charging times aren't linear, so if let's say your battery is at 80% and you want to stop and grab a bite to eat, you won't be able to do a quick top up like you would with an ICE vehicle.

You also won't be able to just leave your Tesla at a supercharger while you go in and have a leisurely lunch or dinner, as once it gets to 100%, you will have 5 minutes to move it to avoid getting charged $1/minute. The charge is perfectly understandable, as this is one of the ways that Tesla tries to minimize congestion, but this is also quite jarring to an ICE vehicle owner.

If you don't have a Tesla, your road trip is likely to be that much worse, as a non-trivial number of charging stations also may not be properly maintained, may have broken plugs, etc...
Last edited by aquaman on Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm

I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
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squirrel1963
Posts: 1253
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Location: Portland OR area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm

I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage.

Charging costs vary a lot, in my case (Tesla, Portland Oregon area) the costs are:
$0.08/kWh home charging
$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)
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neilpilot
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Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm

I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
All the components were UL certified.

I bought my EV primarily for local drives. Until recently we've flown (Mooney) longer distances, but recently have driven my DW's ICE for many distant drives. Have driven a few EV trips, with another planned next weekend, but 3 years of free L2 charging came with the EV.

I'm not here to argue EV vs ICE, but just posting my numbers. In my case, the EV was attractive since it didn't cost me more than the alternative ICE I was considering, I'm garaged and the charger install was easy, and my electricity was $0.095/kwh before the recent ramp up. Until NG prices go down, I'm now paying $0.14/kwh so my weekly top-off is way up to $5.50!
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:54 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
All the components were UL certified.

I bought my EV primarily for local drives. We've usually flown (Mooney) longer distances, but have driven my DW's ICE for many distant drives. Have driven a few EV trips, with another planned next weekend, but 3 years of free L2 charging came with the EV.

I'm not here to argue EV vs ICE, but just posting my numbers. In my case, the EV was attractive since it didn't cost me more than the alternative ICE I was considering, I'm garaged and the charger install was easy, and my electricity was $0.095/kwh before the recent ramp up. Until NG prices go down, I'm now paying $0.14/kwh so my weekly top-off is way up to $5.50!
I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?

With the chargers installed in home - I am not asking if the fixtures were UL approved... I was asking if the installation was approved for insurance and did you get a UL cert for your home records?
Before you ask - yes, I can do a home charger install myself but similar to a few things like these they do require a UL cert by an electrician to pass insurance inspections and ensure that our coverage remains intact.
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:14 pm
In my case, I gladly paid the $320 fee (before tax credit) to be able to charge at home overnite and smile as I drive past the gas station I haven't been to in 15 months.
Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage.

Charging costs vary a lot, in my case (Tesla, Portland Oregon area) the costs are:
$0.08/kWh home charging
$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)
"I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage."
Thank you - what charger capacity did you install? What were the total costs? What was the cost for the inspections?

"$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)"
Thank you - I do not anticipate a Tesla at this time, If you happen to know the costs for other chargers that would be great.
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Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:54 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm

Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
All the components were UL certified.

I bought my EV primarily for local drives. We've usually flown (Mooney) longer distances, but have driven my DW's ICE for many distant drives. Have driven a few EV trips, with another planned next weekend, but 3 years of free L2 charging came with the EV.

I'm not here to argue EV vs ICE, but just posting my numbers. In my case, the EV was attractive since it didn't cost me more than the alternative ICE I was considering, I'm garaged and the charger install was easy, and my electricity was $0.095/kwh before the recent ramp up. Until NG prices go down, I'm now paying $0.14/kwh so my weekly top-off is way up to $5.50!
I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?

With the chargers installed in home - I am not asking if the fixtures were UL approved... I was asking if the installation was approved for insurance and did you get a UL cert for your home records?
Before you ask - yes, I can do a home charger install myself but similar to a few things like these they do require a UL cert by an electrician to pass insurance inspections and ensure that our coverage remains intact.
For a non-Tesla DC charger I use the EA website since that's free for me. Check out PlugShare & ABRP for some info on L3 charger location, cost and (in the case of ABRP) trip planning.

I've lived in 5 states but never heard of the work record, work order or inspection approval referred to as a "UL Cert". Here in TN a homeowner can get a "residential property owner’s electrical permit", and I had a simple inspection done after the install and before I closed the wall.
smitcat
Posts: 13227
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:12 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:54 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
All the components were UL certified.

I bought my EV primarily for local drives. We've usually flown (Mooney) longer distances, but have driven my DW's ICE for many distant drives. Have driven a few EV trips, with another planned next weekend, but 3 years of free L2 charging came with the EV.

I'm not here to argue EV vs ICE, but just posting my numbers. In my case, the EV was attractive since it didn't cost me more than the alternative ICE I was considering, I'm garaged and the charger install was easy, and my electricity was $0.095/kwh before the recent ramp up. Until NG prices go down, I'm now paying $0.14/kwh so my weekly top-off is way up to $5.50!
I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?

With the chargers installed in home - I am not asking if the fixtures were UL approved... I was asking if the installation was approved for insurance and did you get a UL cert for your home records?
Before you ask - yes, I can do a home charger install myself but similar to a few things like these they do require a UL cert by an electrician to pass insurance inspections and ensure that our coverage remains intact.
For a non-Tesla DC charger I use the EA website since that's free for me. Check out PlugShare & ABRP for some info on L3 charger location, cost and (in the case of ABRP) trip planning.

I've lived in 5 states but never heard of the work record, work order or inspection approval referred to as a "UL Cert". Here in TN a homeowner can get a "residential property owner’s electrical permit", and I had a simple inspection done after the install and before I closed the wall.
You shared an existing dryer circuit and it passed inspection? Very interesting area I guess.

I see some costs at like $0.20 - $0.25Kw and $0.04 per minute at first blush.
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squirrel1963
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Location: Portland OR area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:04 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:24 pm

Please provide information on what you received for $320.
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage.

Charging costs vary a lot, in my case (Tesla, Portland Oregon area) the costs are:
$0.08/kWh home charging
$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)
"I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage."
Thank you - what charger capacity did you install? What were the total costs? What was the cost for the inspections?

"$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)"
Thank you - I do not anticipate a Tesla at this time, If you happen to know the costs for other chargers that would be great.
I do not recall the exact numbers for DIY install, but it was $500 for wall charger, about $100 in parts and $75 for inspection 4 years ago. I used a 50A breaker resulting in 40A sustained current load, and could not go higher due to load calculations for the panel.

In the current home we live we just made it easier and a NEMA-1450 outlet along with the charging adapter that came with the car. The Tesla adapter limits actual current to 32A for NEMA-1450, and it's enough for us, we still get full charge in about 10 hours. Note that Tesla no longer supplies the charging adapter with the car, you would need to buy it separately. In our case we got it with the car.

I don't know the costs for non-Tesla chargers, but they are easy to find out with PlugShare (either the phone app or online).
The nearest fast charger I see is Electrify America https://www.plugshare.com/location/163285 and the cost is:
Pass (Free): (1-350 kW) $0.43/kWh
Pass+ ($4.00 Monthly): (1-350 kW) $0.31/kWh

So it's fairly similar to the Supercharger cost in this case -- I don't know if it is by design or by accident.
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smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:04 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm
neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:16 pm
When I said $320 I was guesstimating. I just checked my records and I underestimated. All amounts paid below include tax. As I posted earlier, I DIYed a socket connected to an existing dryer circuit that shares a wall with my garage.

Switch, socket & misc to install 40a/240v $82
Level 2 nema 14-30 charger $339
Less 20% Tax credit ($84)
Net expense $337
How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage.

Charging costs vary a lot, in my case (Tesla, Portland Oregon area) the costs are:
$0.08/kWh home charging
$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)
"I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage."
Thank you - what charger capacity did you install? What were the total costs? What was the cost for the inspections?

"$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)"
Thank you - I do not anticipate a Tesla at this time, If you happen to know the costs for other chargers that would be great.
I do not recall the exact numbers for DIY install, but it was $500 for wall charger, about $100 in parts and $75 for inspection 4 years ago. I used a 50A breaker resulting in 40A sustained current load, and could not go higher due to load calculations for the panel.

In the current home we live we just made it easier and a NEMA-1450 outlet along with the charging adapter that came with the car. The Tesla adapter limits actual current to 32A for NEMA-1450, and it's enough for us, we still get full charge in about 10 hours. Note that Tesla no longer supplies the charging adapter with the car, you would need to buy it separately. In our case we got it with the car.

I don't know the costs for non-Tesla chargers, but they are easy to find out with PlugShare (either the phone app or online).
The nearest fast charger I see is Electrify America https://www.plugshare.com/location/163285 and the cost is:
Pass (Free): (1-350 kW) $0.43/kWh
Pass+ ($4.00 Monthly): (1-350 kW) $0.31/kWh

So it's fairly similar to the Supercharger cost in this case -- I don't know if it is by design or by accident.
"Pass (Free): (1-350 kW) $0.43/kWh
Pass+ ($4.00 Monthly): (1-350 kW) $0.31/kWh"

Thank you - now that you have led me to some sites I am seeing similar costs for fast chargers in the area we are in (about 85% of these).
Yet there are many areas where you would need to be in a number of these paid monthly networks as the chargers are not typically spaced out where they would be needed by each network. Thanks again, I am learning ...
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squirrel1963
Posts: 1253
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Location: Portland OR area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:32 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:28 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:04 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:42 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:35 pm

How does that work out with your home insurance without a UL cert?
How much does it cost to charge electric cars on fast chargers when traveling on longer trips?
I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage.

Charging costs vary a lot, in my case (Tesla, Portland Oregon area) the costs are:
$0.08/kWh home charging
$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)
"I DIY'ed the wall charger on my previous house but I got the permit and had it inspected precisely out of concern for insurance coverage."
Thank you - what charger capacity did you install? What were the total costs? What was the cost for the inspections?

"$0.37/kWh fast DC charger (Supercharger)"
Thank you - I do not anticipate a Tesla at this time, If you happen to know the costs for other chargers that would be great.
I do not recall the exact numbers for DIY install, but it was $500 for wall charger, about $100 in parts and $75 for inspection 4 years ago. I used a 50A breaker resulting in 40A sustained current load, and could not go higher due to load calculations for the panel.

In the current home we live we just made it easier and a NEMA-1450 outlet along with the charging adapter that came with the car. The Tesla adapter limits actual current to 32A for NEMA-1450, and it's enough for us, we still get full charge in about 10 hours. Note that Tesla no longer supplies the charging adapter with the car, you would need to buy it separately. In our case we got it with the car.

I don't know the costs for non-Tesla chargers, but they are easy to find out with PlugShare (either the phone app or online).
The nearest fast charger I see is Electrify America https://www.plugshare.com/location/163285 and the cost is:
Pass (Free): (1-350 kW) $0.43/kWh
Pass+ ($4.00 Monthly): (1-350 kW) $0.31/kWh

So it's fairly similar to the Supercharger cost in this case -- I don't know if it is by design or by accident.
"Pass (Free): (1-350 kW) $0.43/kWh
Pass+ ($4.00 Monthly): (1-350 kW) $0.31/kWh"

Thank you - now that you have led me to some sites I am seeing similar costs for fast chargers in the area we are in (about 85% of these).
Yet there are many areas where you would need to be in a number of these paid monthly networks as the chargers are not typically spaced out where they would be needed by each network. Thanks again, I am learning ...
I am also learning something too, so I also need to thank you :-) My wife and I do a lot of long trips, and now Electrify America seems to be having good coverage along I-5 at better prices than Tesla, so I'm thinking maybe we should try their monthly pass at some point. This only really works for Tesla EVs if you have the CCS adapter from S Korea, as ChaDemo adapter is too slow (limited at 50 kW, whereas you get up to 200 kW with CCS adapter).
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm
Californiastate wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:31 pmMy current schedule doesn't revolve around the fueling of our vehicles. I don't see the incentive to settle for a less convenient option.
Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
150x per year? At 12K miles/year, that's 80 miles per plug/unplug. I'm sure some people do that, but with even cheapo EVs like the Bolt offering 250+ miles of range, it's certainly not necessary. I generally only plug in when my vehicle is below about 30% SOC or about 80 miles of range remaining. Why not also go to the gas station every 80 miles? That's a minimum of 3 minutes x 150 = 450 minutes or 7.5 hours per year.
aquaman
Posts: 335
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by aquaman »

For those interested in the "on the go" charging issues, here's a decent PwC article (https://www.pwc.com/us/en/industries/in ... cture.html): “On-the-go” charging is key to EV growth"

Here's the conclusion: "The current fast-charger network (47,000 chargers at a 5% utilization and a 0.5% fleet penetration) has been built ahead of demand and remains poorly utilized. We expect, however, that utilization will grow as the market and investor expectations mature. But utilization may well lag profitable levels for some time, as providers expand their networks in expectation of steadily increasing demand.

Given a central estimate of 5% penetration of EV total vehicle parc by 2030, the market could require about 120,000 to 235,000 fast-charge points or about 30,000 to 60,000 charging locations. Interestingly, smaller locations will probably drive adoption, as they’ll be more numerous and hence more convenient for consumers. Taking these considerations into account, we estimate the total fast-charging network in 2030 to be close to 60,000 locations with at least some of these—perhaps most—at existing gas stations.

While EV charging remains in its nascency, we believe that the build-out of a national network of chargers that satisfies customer demand and preferences will do much to support greater adoption of EVs. Exactly how quickly this charging infrastructure will be developed—and precisely what it will look like—is not altogether certain.

Still, the underlying economics and analogous consumer behaviors should result in a network of convenient, fast-charging stations that compete to provide consumers with the electrons they need at competitive prices."
02nz
Posts: 10476
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

aquaman wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:20 pm You also won't be able to just leave your Tesla at a supercharger while you go in and have a leisurely lunch or dinner, as once it gets to 100%, you will have 5 minutes to move it to avoid getting charged $1/minute. The charge is perfectly understandable, as this is one of the ways that Tesla tries to minimize congestion, but this is also quite jarring to an ICE vehicle owner.
Hmm, such an interesting issue you bring up. It sounds like congestion at fast charging stations is a thing, and one might find the number of connectors at each station a very relevant issue, and not just the number of stations. Or is that just EV fanatics "misleading" people? :happy
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:16 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?
Right at the end of the quoted bit above:
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
It's about time per cycle, AND # of cycles.

The basic action of connecting, then disconnecting, an electric charger is not altogether different from inserting, then removing, a gas pump.

Certainly, there's more to pumping gas (pulling in and exiting from the station, fussing with your credit card) but not THAT much more, if the station is conveniently located (and I suspect most ICE drivers have their convenient favorite station). And not every detached homeowner has an unoccupied garage that they use for their primary commuting vehicle, so sometimes additional navigational issues are at play with charging, again, not so unlike navigating in by a gas pump (maybe easier, if you have to move a different vehicle out of your garage or driveway before getting your EV in).
You neglected to mention that you have to wait for the refueling at a gas station, not so with home charging of an EV. Of course, that's so second-nature for most people that it seems it's nothing, but it does add up.
02nz
Posts: 10476
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:26 pm

I can't imagine anyone thinks that finding a gas station, driving in, fuelling up, paying, is going to be more convenient than plugging your car in when you get home?

England may not be representative of the North American norm. But if you have your own parking (about 60-70% of households do) you drive onto your driveway (garages are used to store cars in only about 10% of cases, apparently) and stop in front of the garage door. Any charger I have seen is on the external wall either to the left or the right of the door. You plug your car in ... the cables are long enough.
Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
The answers to your "problem" are very straightforward and have already been given:

1. Reconsider whether and how often you drive 250 miles each on BOTH cars and need to do the same the next day.
2. Consider whether you're willing to DC FC on those rare occasions - if they happen at all.
3. Talk to an electrician to see if two 16A L2 chargers will work with your wiring/house.
4. Switch to EV for just one of the two vehicles, keep the other ICE.

There may be others.

Nobody said an EV is right for everyone, there are lots of reasons why they may not work for you. But it sure seems like you're just looking for a reason to reject EVs. Practically everything discussed on this forum - whether EVs or Roth vs traditional - is about trade offs; if the trade off to switch to EV is too big, don't do it, but you always make trade-offs even if the decision is to stick to ICE.
mpnret
Posts: 672
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mpnret »

2021 model 3 here. Commute is less than 100 miles. Plug in every night to a 120v 20a regular outlet in my garage and leave the house every morning with a full tank and the potential to go 353 miles. Love not having to waste time at a gas station or even think about anymore. If I go on a trip Tesla has a great supercharger network.
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Californiastate »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:38 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:12 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:55 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:54 pm
squirrel1963 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:43 pm

Yep exactly, and yes what you tell me England is representative of North America.

I just cannot fathom that plugging the car in the garage it would be difficult. If you keep it outside at all times you can also easily place your wall charger outside.
The time and effort it takes to plug/unplug at home is very similar to the time it takes to insert/remove the gas nozzle in the tank, but the difference is that you do need to drive to a gas station to get gas.
And many people go to places like Costco, where often you need to wait 15-20 minutes to fill up.

There are many criticisms you can move towards EV, but home charging hassle is definitely not one of them.
Are you assuming that the EV owner is satisfied with the 110V 20A outlet in a US garage? Level 2 chargers with their accompanying electrical work add quite a bit to the math. I'm sure they're convenient but this thread is about cost. I can't recall the initial cost of a Level 2 charger installation being factored into the comparisons. I also haven't seen anybody mention that they have 2 fully independent Level 2 chargers at home. The feedback is that they aren't necessary. I'm trying to be sold on EV. It always come back to the same point. Don't ask me to sacrifice to make the existing tech work. Engineer a clean vehicle that meets my needs and not the other way around.
I'm making no such assumption, in fact I strongly believe that a level 2 charger is a must for most EV owners. I think you'd really need to be a super EV enthusiast to make level 1 charging working, so yes in my opinion most people need to take into account the cost of a level 2 charging. The cheapest you can have is a NEMA-1450 outlet (about $500-$700) plus the cost of an adapter.

I am not asking you to sacrifice anything of course, it's obviously your choice. All I can say is that I made mine and I am super happy with my Tesla and that the cost of a NEMA-1450 is reasonable to me. You may arrive to a different conclusion of course if this is about cost for you.

All I am saying is that home charging is a vastly superior experience than having to go to a gas station, and I speak from having 4 years experience on this.
I didn’t pay a $2k (after taxes) upfront fee to use the local hydrocarbon retailer.
The answers to your "problem" are very straightforward and have already been given:

1. Reconsider whether and how often you drive 250 miles each on BOTH cars and need to do the same the next day.
2. Consider whether you're willing to DC FC on those rare occasions - if they happen at all.
3. Talk to an electrician to see if two 16A L2 chargers will work with your wiring/house.
4. Switch to EV for just one of the two vehicles, keep the other ICE.

There may be others.

Nobody said an EV is right for everyone, there are lots of reasons why they may not work for you. But it sure seems like you're just looking for a reason to reject EVs. Practically everything discussed on this forum - whether EVs or Roth vs traditional - is about trade offs; if the trade off to switch to EV is too big, don't do it, but you always make trade-offs even if the decision is to stick to ICE.
Nothing has changed. Don't take it personally. The range and fueling limitations have always been the weakest link. You're going to need to sell your vacuum cleaner to somebody else. Have a good day.
7eight9
Posts: 2406
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm
Californiastate wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:31 pmMy current schedule doesn't revolve around the fueling of our vehicles. I don't see the incentive to settle for a less convenient option.
Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
150x per year? At 12K miles/year, that's 80 miles per plug/unplug. I'm sure some people do that, but with even cheapo EVs like the Bolt offering 250+ miles of range, it's certainly not necessary. I generally only plug in when my vehicle is below about 30% SOC or about 80 miles of range remaining. Why not also go to the gas station every 80 miles? That's a minimum of 3 minutes x 150 = 450 minutes or 7.5 hours per year.
I bought one of those "cheapo EVs" two months ago. 2022 Nissan Leaf S. Range of 150 miles. I knew it was going to be essentially worthless for anything other than commuting. We had to go down to Los Angeles to pick it up and the drive home confirmed what I thought with respect to the entire charging situation.

What I didn't consider is how often it would have to be plugged in. I'm in that 150x a year category.

The Leaf replaced a Prius C which had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. Why didn't we fuel up the Prius C after going 80 miles? Because there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

In my opinion it is very inconvenient to have to be constantly plugging and unplugging the Leaf. Shame on me. I should have done more research and thought a bit harder before buying it. The purchase was pretty much rushed. The Prius C was totalled and we needed another car. Now we are kind of stuck with it. Maybe it will grow on me but I doubt it very much.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
02nz
Posts: 10476
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:00 pm
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm
Californiastate wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:31 pmMy current schedule doesn't revolve around the fueling of our vehicles. I don't see the incentive to settle for a less convenient option.
Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
150x per year? At 12K miles/year, that's 80 miles per plug/unplug. I'm sure some people do that, but with even cheapo EVs like the Bolt offering 250+ miles of range, it's certainly not necessary. I generally only plug in when my vehicle is below about 30% SOC or about 80 miles of range remaining. Why not also go to the gas station every 80 miles? That's a minimum of 3 minutes x 150 = 450 minutes or 7.5 hours per year.
I bought one of those "cheapo EVs" two months ago. 2022 Nissan Leaf S. Range of 150 miles. I knew it was going to be essentially worthless for anything other than commuting. We had to go down to Los Angeles to pick it up and the drive home confirmed what I thought with respect to the entire charging situation.

What I didn't consider is how often it would have to be plugged in. I'm in that 150x a year category.

The Leaf replaced a Prius C which had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. Why didn't we fuel up the Prius C after going 80 miles? Because there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

In my opinion it is very inconvenient to have to be constantly plugging and unplugging the Leaf. Shame on me. I should have done more research and thought a bit harder before buying it. The purchase was pretty much rushed. The Prius C was totalled and we needed another car. Now we are kind of stuck with it. Maybe it will grow on me but I doubt it very much.
Should’ve gotten a Bolt.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

02nz wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:48 pm
7eight9 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:00 pm
02nz wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm
psteinx wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:44 pm
harikaried wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm Your schedule does already account for fueling your vehicles. With 15k miles driven per year at 30 miles per gallon efficiency with say 15 gallon refill in 3 minutes, that would be 100 minutes for each vehicle across the year. Charging an EV conveniently at home takes a few seconds to plug in and unplug, and even a regular 120V wall outlet could be sufficient for daily driving.
EV advocates do this kind of thing - plausible and detailed accounting for the time to fill an ICE, but then hand-wave the time to fuss with charging an EV at home.

There are a lot of different ways and potential issues with charging an EV, so it's hard to be precise.

But let's say you charge your EV 3x/week.

That's ~150 times per year.

Plug location/length can be anywhere from highly convenient to inconvient. When I'm connecting long-ish plugs (vaccuum cleaner, outdoor leaf blower) the time to do so is not trivial. Best case it MIGHT be 5 seconds. But worst case might be 20. Then you have to unplug, add 5-15 seconds more. Maybe some bending/squatting/twisting as you do (not pleasant for those of us on the wrong side of 50). So, you're probably in the range of 10-35 seconds for both halves of the operation.

But also, you might have to play driveway Tetris to get the right car to the right spot in the garage.

Or, you might not have a garage/garage is full, and you plug something longer to the driveway or maybe even the street.

Waving that stuff away, we'll go back to the simpler case. 150x/year X 10-35 seconds per cycle is 1500-5250 seconds, or 25-88 minutes. That's, per this math, somewhat less than the ICE math above. But it's not nothing. Shorter time per cycle but greater # of cycles.
150x per year? At 12K miles/year, that's 80 miles per plug/unplug. I'm sure some people do that, but with even cheapo EVs like the Bolt offering 250+ miles of range, it's certainly not necessary. I generally only plug in when my vehicle is below about 30% SOC or about 80 miles of range remaining. Why not also go to the gas station every 80 miles? That's a minimum of 3 minutes x 150 = 450 minutes or 7.5 hours per year.
I bought one of those "cheapo EVs" two months ago. 2022 Nissan Leaf S. Range of 150 miles. I knew it was going to be essentially worthless for anything other than commuting. We had to go down to Los Angeles to pick it up and the drive home confirmed what I thought with respect to the entire charging situation.

What I didn't consider is how often it would have to be plugged in. I'm in that 150x a year category.

The Leaf replaced a Prius C which had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. Why didn't we fuel up the Prius C after going 80 miles? Because there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

In my opinion it is very inconvenient to have to be constantly plugging and unplugging the Leaf. Shame on me. I should have done more research and thought a bit harder before buying it. The purchase was pretty much rushed. The Prius C was totalled and we needed another car. Now we are kind of stuck with it. Maybe it will grow on me but I doubt it very much.
Should’ve gotten a Bolt.
Should have waited and bought a Corolla hybrid which was the first choice. Unfortunately we couldn't find one on the ground near us.

Now we are stuck with the Leaf which needs to be constantly charged. Believe me, I regret buying it.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
neilpilot
Posts: 5003
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:15 pm
You shared an existing dryer circuit and it passed inspection? Very interesting area I guess.
NEC code permits a single residential circuit to run through an approved toggle switch, and feed 2 appliances. I used a switch similar to this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078 ... UTF8&psc=1

Note that even thought the Amazon description says 120v, the 1288 series Leviton toggles are rated for 120v-277v range and marked as such.
hunoraut
Posts: 1717
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by hunoraut »

i don't know why this re-energizing is such a sticky battleground.

every american over the age of 16 has experience with fueling up a car, and understands what a non-issue it is.
every ev owner is sharing experience charging (at home and on the road), and is expressing what a non-issue it is.

and yet there's still hand-wringing about how laborious and imaginatively-difficult either of those things *must be*.
Valuethinker
Posts: 48944
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Valuethinker »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:13 am i don't know why this re-energizing is such a sticky battleground.

every american over the age of 16 has experience with fueling up a car, and understands what a non-issue it is.
every ev owner is sharing experience charging (at home and on the road), and is expressing what a non-issue it is.

and yet there's still hand-wringing about how laborious and imaginatively-difficult either of those things *must be*.
I suspect that owning/ not owning an EV has become associated with a particular identity. I remember when owning a Toyota Prius was seen as a "statement". Before all the taxicab companies bought them, I imagine.

There are great inconveniences associated with EV ownership. Other than Tesla, it appears highway/ fast DC chargers (in 100% working condition) are rare.

On the other hand, EVs are the future. Although adoption rates will vary by country (someone is going to tell me that I will pry their 3 litre turbo V6 from their cold dead hand ... ;-)). This has many geo-strategic and geo-political dimensions: the US is a major oil producer, Europe is not, generally, with the exception of Norway (which has about the highest adoption rate of EVs in the world), China is fast declining (but is likely to have Russia as a captive supplier). Hurricane evacuation is a thing in America so I imagine if you live in Florida relying solely on an EV may not be a good strategy. You also have many more electricity outages than is common in Western Europe (or so I gather).

Technology paradigm shifts often are accompanied by big behavioural adaptations -- not all of which make things more convenient. ICE cars were extremely inconvenient and unreliable in the early decades. Bicycles changed gender relations -- and were widely condemned by church leaders of the time. Commercial flying is ... hassle ... for those without access to private jets.
smitcat
Posts: 13227
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

neilpilot wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:08 pm
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:15 pm
You shared an existing dryer circuit and it passed inspection? Very interesting area I guess.
NEC code permits a single residential circuit to run through an approved toggle switch, and feed 2 appliances. I used a switch similar to this one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078 ... UTF8&psc=1

Note that even thought the Amazon description says 120v, the 1288 series Leviton toggles are rated for 120v-277v range and marked as such.
Interesting - no chance that would pass inspections where we have had them.
Jack FFR1846
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I'll admit that getting gas is far more complicated than if I could plug in a garage charger. However, my garage is 75 feet from the house with a 220V 20A service, so I don't know if a level 2 would work. If I could limit the current, I suppose it could.

I get gas one of 2 ways, depending on the station and the discount points I have stored.

1) Shell station: I've accumulated $1.50 per gallon Stop & Shop go points that I redeemed as gas points. I have this linked to my Shell Rewards account, so get another 5 cents off per gallon. So at the pump, I first hit the S&S rewards button, then slide my Shell Rewards program card, then slide my 2% credit card. I then fill my car and when full, fill gas cans on my trailer hitch rack to hit 20 gallons. That's the max I can get and I want to get as much gas at $1.55 off (plus the 2% on my card....unless like this month, my Citi Sears is giving me 10% back). At home, I use a funnel and put gas in my other 2 cars. When I'm done pumping, I take a picture of my receipt for the Fetch app, where when I hit $5 back, I order a free $5 CVS card.

2) Mobil Station: First I punch in "loyalty" then "EM" for Exxon Mobil, then punch in my phone number. If I have enough already, it asks me if for example I want to get $1.43 back for 143 points and I push "yes". Then it asks for my code and I punch in my 4 digit code. I then put in my 2% card unless as above, like this month, I have 10% back on my Citi Sears card. Once done, I get my receipt. I then bring up the Upside app, it finds me on the GPS and shows the gas station and I hit "claim". Then I take a picture of the receipt for points. When I get $50 worth, I get a $50 gift card. I then take another picture on the Fetch app. When I get $5 worth, I get a $5 CVS card.

While far more complicated, I get rewards stacked on cash back stacked on points, stacked on other points every time I get gas.
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

ABRP (A better route planner) is a free app (with pay upgrades) that does all that thinking for you. I use the free version on my phone. I told it my start and destination, and that I was starting with 100% SOC (charge) and wanted to have 50% SOC when I arrived 400 miles later. It then found DCFCs along my route, and (knowing the SOC-dependent charging speed of my vehicle) found the **optimum** stopping points and charging times for total travel time. I did this in my living room the morning before I left, waiting for my kid to wake up.

It found two stops, the first in a large shopping area, the latter in an older small mall. Both less than 1 mile off the HW. It suggested about 90 minutes charging (total) and 6.5 hrs drive time. So 8 hours with stops.

That took 3 minutes.

I then pasted these stops into a second app, Plugshare, to check their ratings/availability/ and on-line status. PlugShare also tells you prices. Both stops were well rated (9/10 and 10/10) with a large number of stalls (12 and 6, IIRC), and people posting that they had used them the day before, so not much to worry about

I noted that 3 of the 12 stalls in the first place (EA) were off-line. 9 working would be aok.

That took another 2 minutes.

Then for my trip I pasted the first DCFC into my nav app (app #3) (I like AppleMaps bc I like the real time traffic avoidance) and used that. My Bolt has wireless Apple CarPlay, so I get the nav on a 10" screen. There was some traffic which I got rerouted around, adding 20 miles to get there faster... this was not an issue, bc ARBP was giving me a 60 mile 'buffer' of range at arrival at each station... no worries.

At the first DCFC there were 12 stalls, and all **looked** like they were operational. There were two Kona's there already charging. Since I knew that 3 were off-line, I checked the EA app, reminded myself that 2, 6 and 7 were down, and parked at #5. Started App #4 (Electrify America pay app) and was charging in <30 seconds.

We then checked google (app #5) for restaurants that would pass muster with my picky passengers, and found a nice Italian sit down place a 3 minute walk away. And had a lovely lunch there, and were back in the car in 60 minutes. Technically, ABRP doesn't take our food prefs into account (yet) so we had to risk our food choices given the constraint of DCFC picked by ABRP. I had previously noted in Plugshare that there was a McDonanlds next to the DCFC, so I knew we wouldn't starve, LOL.

After the hour charge (ABRP said we needed 45 minutes, we overcharged), we could've made it to the destination on 'fumes', but we kept the second stop so to arrive with a half full tank. At that place, we stretched our legs for 20 minutes just to top off the car, and were on our way. There there were 6 stalls and one other EV charging). All were working (EVGo). I opened a 6th app (EVGO) and charging initiated in 30 seconds.

The DCFC's charged me I think $0.30/kWh for 70 kWh of juice and 250 miles of range. Like $22. Same as 'cheap gas' I suppose.

At my rental house destination, I brought a L1 EVSE and a 25' 12 AWG extension cord. I found a suitable plug within extension cord range and have charged at 1.4 kW maybe 12 hours a day while here. This adds 50-60 miles per day, which is all we need. We will leave to go home with a 75% full tank. We are 'stealing' about $20 worth of juice on a $2.5k rental. I can sleep well at night. I might leave an extra box of K-cups or some booze as compensation.

---------

Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV that has 'horrible' and 'the worst' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).

----------

Anecdote: At the first stop, after lunch, I noticed a man in a suit, next to a rather posh EV (forget which) in stall #6. He looked exasperated and was yelling into his phone (to an EA representative). I asked him how he was doing and if I could help him. He barked out that he had been there for 30 minutes and not gotten an electron yet, and moved his car twice, just to a third stall (#6). I told him (1) that stalls 2, 6 and 7 were listed off line in the apps (but not on the units) and (2) that the units screens were reporting '0 kW' for several minutes after the charge had started to flow (per the vehicle display). He thanked me for the info, and I boogied.

This fellow had spent $$$ for an EV that could charge 2-3X faster than mine, saving him 20-30 minutes per stop. And then was uninformed about the apps/process. And didn't even look in the EA app to check stall status. And in the end stressed himself out and cost himself 30 minutes.

He will now rant on line about how he should've gotten a Tesla, and how EA is awful, and there are no working DCFCs, even along I-95. I know, bc I read posts like that every day.

My conclusion: a DCFC station is NOT like a gas station. No attendant. The margins are too low to pay for one. When a gas pump goes off line (which I see lots of) the attendant hangs a sign on it. At a DCFC station, the unit reports back to the cloud, and the app pushes out the info. You might think the unit would display in big red letter that it is off-line, nope. Secondary effect... lots of the credit card readers on these unattended machines get hacked... so I will never us the CC feature (having my card stolen after a single use). So I have to have a few apps/accounts set up to charge. Meh.

Thing 1: I think the EA machines ARE a little wonky, should have more up-time and better communication. And I am sure that that will happen over the next year or two. They're new. EVGO used to be bad, now they are fine. This is the herky-jerky nature of 'progress'.

Thing 2: the legacy car makers and their dealers are dropping the ball on educating their customer. I have never gotten any useful info on how to do any of the above from a car salesman. None of them even drive EVs themselves and have no clue.
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

ABRP (A better route planner) is a free app (with pay upgrades) that does all that thinking for you. I use the free version on my phone. I told it my start and destination, and that I was starting with 100% SOC (charge) and wanted to have 50% SOC when I arrived 400 miles later. It then found DCFCs along my route, and (knowing the SOC-dependent charging speed of my vehicle) found the **optimum** stopping points and charging times for total travel time. I did this in my living room the morning before I left, waiting for my kid to wake up.

It found two stops, the first in a large shopping area, the latter in an older small mall. Both less than 1 mile off the HW. It suggested about 90 minutes charging (total) and 6.5 hrs drive time. So 8 hours with stops.

That took 3 minutes.

I then pasted these stops into a second app, Plugshare, to check their ratings/availability/ and on-line status. PlugShare also tells you prices. Both stops were well rated (9/10 and 10/10) with a large number of stalls (12 and 6, IIRC), and people posting that they had used them the day before, so not much to worry about

I noted that 3 of the 12 stalls in the first place (EA) were off-line. 9 working would be aok.

That took another 2 minutes.

Then for my trip I pasted the first DCFC into my nav app (app #3) (I like AppleMaps bc I like the real time traffic avoidance) and used that. My Bolt has wireless Apple CarPlay, so I get the nav on a 10" screen. There was some traffic which I got rerouted around, adding 20 miles to get there faster... this was not an issue, bc ARBP was giving me a 60 mile 'buffer' of range at arrival at each station... no worries.

At the first DCFC there were 12 stalls, and all **looked** like they were operational. There were two Kona's there already charging. Since I knew that 3 were off-line, I checked the EA app, reminded myself that 2, 6 and 7 were down, and parked at #5. Started App #4 (Electrify America pay app) and was charging in <30 seconds.

We then checked google (app #5) for restaurants that would pass muster with my picky passengers, and found a nice Italian sit down place a 3 minute walk away. And had a lovely lunch there, and were back in the car in 60 minutes. Technically, ABRP doesn't take our food prefs into account (yet) so we had to risk our food choices given the constraint of DCFC picked by ABRP. I had previously noted in Plugshare that there was a McDonanlds next to the DCFC, so I knew we wouldn't starve, LOL.

After the hour charge (ABRP said we needed 45 minutes, we overcharged), we could've made it to the destination on 'fumes', but we kept the second stop so to arrive with a half full tank. At that place, we stretched our legs for 20 minutes just to top off the car, and were on our way. There there were 6 stalls and one other EV charging). All were working (EVGo). I opened a 6th app (EVGO) and charging initiated in 30 seconds.

The DCFC's charged me I think $0.30/kWh for 70 kWh of juice and 250 miles of range. Like $22. Same as 'cheap gas' I suppose.

At my rental house destination, I brought a L1 EVSE and a 25' 12 AWG extension cord. I found a suitable plug within extension cord range and have charged at 1.4 kW maybe 12 hours a day while here. This adds 50-60 miles per day, which is all we need. We will leave to go home with a 75% full tank. We are 'stealing' about $20 worth of juice on a $2.5k rental. I can sleep well at night. I might leave an extra box of K-cups or some booze as compensation.

---------

Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV has 'horrible' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).

----------

Anecdote: At the first stop, after lunch, I noticed a man in a suit, next to a rather posh EV (forget which) in stall #6. He looked exasperated and was yelling into his phone (to an EA representative). I asked him how he was doing and if I could help him. He barked out that he had been there for 30 minutes and not gotten an electron yet, and moved his car twice, just to a third stall (#6). I told him (1) that stalls 2, 6 and 7 were listed off line in the apps (but not on the units) and (2) that the units screens were reporting '0 kW' for several minutes after the charge had started to flow (per the vehicle display). He thanked me for the info, and I boogied.

This fellow had spent $$$ for an EV that could charge 2-3X faster than mine, saving him 20-30 minutes per stop. And then was uninformed about the apps/process. And didn't even look in the EA app to check stall status. And in the end stressed himself out and cost himself 30 minutes.

He will now rant on line about how he should've gotten a Tesla, and how EA is awful, and there are no working DCFCs, even along I-95. I know, bc I read posts like that every day.

My conclusion: a DCFC station is NOT like a gas station. No attendant. The margins are too low to pay for one. When a gas pump goes off line (which I see lots of) the attendant hangs a sign on it. At a DCFC station, the unit reports back to the cloud, and the app pushes out the info. You might think the unit would display in big red letter that it is off-line, nope. Secondary effect... lots of the credit card readers on these unattended machines get hacked... so I will never us the CC feature (having my card stolen after a single use). So I have to have a few apps/accounts set up to charge. Meh.

Thing 1: I think the EA machines ARE a little wonky, should have more up-time and better communication. And I am sure that that will happen over the next year or two. They're new. EVGO used to be bad, now they are fine. This is the herky-jerky nature of 'progress'.

Thing 2: the legacy car makers and their dealers are dropping the ball on educating their customer. I have never gotten any useful info on how to do any of the above from a car salesman. None of them even drive EVs themselves and have no clue.
Thank you for all the details.
As we look into this more it appears this is a bit too early for us to make the change.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Let's compare a common trip I make. I start in Hopkinton, MA with my IcE car and end in Blacksburg, VA. I drive just about half way first to just below Scranton, PA on Rt 81 (the road of many orange barrels). On car play, I find a Subway just off the highway connected to a gas station. I get off, put in the credit card, put the nozzle in the car and walk in. Put in my order, hit the bathroom, come out and pay and take away my sub, chips and drink. Of course, I use my subway rewards card and the CSR mentions that I have a $2 reward, do I want to use it. Well, yah, thanks. Get to the car and pull out the nozzle and drive back to Rt 81 for the wonderful stop and go traffic. Total stop time: 15 minutes. And yes, I eat the sub while stopped in traffic. Easy to do because there's lots of stopping and no, there isn't a better route (per google maps) to get around this. I drive until I get to Blacksburg, 720 miles from the stop.

I did test drive a model 3 performance. Following the drive, I was talking with the sales guy about various things. I mentioned that DW and I may drive up to Nova Scotia for a vacation. Tesla guy said he never brought his Tesla on trips. He always brings an ICE car. Makes sense to me. If I had to stop at a supercharger and eat at an Olive Garden when I just wanted a Subway tuna sub on Italian with lettuce and provolone, I would be unhappy, even if there were a super duper charger.

I am again starting to look at cars. The Cadillac dealer will send me an invite when the Lyriq event is scheduled for their location. I'm looking again at CT4 sedans in both the low end 4 cyl turbo and 6 cyl turbo blackwing versions. The "other" dealer called and one of their Blackwings has been on the lot for too long so they're selling at MSRP. The Audi dealer east of my (12 miles) just got in a red RS3 so my son and I are going to go look at it.
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cmr79
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:00 am I'll admit that getting gas is far more complicated than if I could plug in a garage charger. However, my garage is 75 feet from the house with a 220V 20A service, so I don't know if a level 2 would work. If I could limit the current, I suppose it could.
...
(Emphasis mine) There are plenty of level 2 EVSEs that have a 16/20A limit and some that have an adjustable limit. You would be able to charge 2-3x faster than a level 1 EVSE without any electrical upgrades, which would seem worth it to me--it's enough to go from 20-80% charge overnight with a 70 kWh battery, which is for all practical purposes more than what most people need, even if you can't actually fill the "entire" battery in 12 hours.
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vineviz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by vineviz »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
After the hour charge (ABRP said we needed 45 minutes, we overcharged), we could've made it to the destination on 'fumes', but we kept the second stop so to arrive with a half full tank. At that place, we stretched our legs for 20 minutes just to top off the car, and were on our way. There there were 6 stalls and one other EV charging). All were working (EVGo). I opened a 6th app (EVGO) and charging initiated in 30 seconds.
I had an interesting (because it's unusual, but still) anecdote from a drive last weekend in my ICE vehicle.

Stopped at a service plaza on I-95 (in MD or DE, I can't remember) to top up my gas tank. There must have been 20-30 pumps, but they are all pumping EXTREMELY slowly. I spent about 10 minutes at one pump and got about 1.5 gallons, barely enough to get 50 miles of "range" from my Honda V-6.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

smitcat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:12 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

....
Thank you for all the details.
As we look into this more it appears this is a bit too early for us to make the change.
Personal decision, totally makes sense. Anyone looking at EVs, I tell them to download ABRP and PlugShare, both free, and to 'play around' in the apps for a little while, and try to plan out their common local trips. In 2022, that will give a person a very good idea about their use cases. Might be worse than you hoped, or better than you feared.

:beer
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:12 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

....
Thank you for all the details.
As we look into this more it appears this is a bit too early for us to make the change.
Personal decision, totally makes sense. Anyone looking at EVs, I tell them to download ABRP and PlugShare, both free, and to 'play around' in the apps for a little while, and try to plan out their common local trips. In 2022, that will give a person a very good idea about their use cases. Might be worse than you hoped, or better than you feared.

:beer
We really wanted to get an EV next - but with our use in our areas of travel the convenience is just not there yet. Savings was not a large part of the equation but that does not appear to be significant either at this time in our case.
stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:13 am i don't know why this re-energizing is such a sticky battleground.

every american over the age of 16 has experience with fueling up a car, and understands what a non-issue it is.
every ev owner is sharing experience charging (at home and on the road), and is expressing what a non-issue it is.

and yet there's still hand-wringing about how laborious and imaginatively-difficult either of those things *must be*.
I agree. Said it earlier, in either situation, fueling is a total non-issue for us. It is in outlier situations where it actually takes a significant amount of time or effort (although the main outlier situation - road-tripping - is a big part of our lives). I guess I'm just different, <10 minutes per month and gas fumes or taking 5 seconds a day to plug and unplug just isn't a factor when I am thinking about what type of car is best for our family.
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:25 am Let's compare a common trip I make. I start in Hopkinton, MA with my IcE car and end in Blacksburg, VA. I drive just about half way first to just below Scranton, PA on Rt 81 (the road of many orange barrels). On car play, I find a Subway just off the highway connected to a gas station. I get off, put in the credit card, put the nozzle in the car and walk in. Put in my order, hit the bathroom, come out and pay and take away my sub, chips and drink. Of course, I use my subway rewards card and the CSR mentions that I have a $2 reward, do I want to use it. Well, yah, thanks. Get to the car and pull out the nozzle and drive back to Rt 81 for the wonderful stop and go traffic. Total stop time: 15 minutes. And yes, I eat the sub while stopped in traffic. Easy to do because there's lots of stopping and no, there isn't a better route (per google maps) to get around this. I drive until I get to Blacksburg, 720 miles from the stop.

I did test drive a model 3 performance. Following the drive, I was talking with the sales guy about various things. I mentioned that DW and I may drive up to Nova Scotia for a vacation. Tesla guy said he never brought his Tesla on trips. He always brings an ICE car. Makes sense to me. If I had to stop at a supercharger and eat at an Olive Garden when I just wanted a Subway tuna sub on Italian with lettuce and provolone, I would be unhappy, even if there were a super duper charger.

I am again starting to look at cars. The Cadillac dealer will send me an invite when the Lyriq event is scheduled for their location. I'm looking again at CT4 sedans in both the low end 4 cyl turbo and 6 cyl turbo blackwing versions. The "other" dealer called and one of their Blackwings has been on the lot for too long so they're selling at MSRP. The Audi dealer east of my (12 miles) just got in a red RS3 so my son and I are going to go look at it.
Been there, done that, totally get it and you can keep on doing that.

For myself, I experimented with a different way. Getting a bit more 'I get there when I get there' attitude, and 'enjoy the trip', etc. atitude. And for trips (at least those under 500 miles) that framing for me has been as enjoyable as the 'game-ification' of getting from A to B as fast as humanly possible on 4 wheels. Getting there fast is fun, but relaxing along the way can also be fun.

If i wanted to go over 500 miles, I would want to use either an ICE or an EV with faster charging DCFC.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:13 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:25 am Let's compare a common trip I make. I start in Hopkinton, MA with my IcE car and end in Blacksburg, VA. I drive just about half way first to just below Scranton, PA on Rt 81 (the road of many orange barrels). On car play, I find a Subway just off the highway connected to a gas station. I get off, put in the credit card, put the nozzle in the car and walk in. Put in my order, hit the bathroom, come out and pay and take away my sub, chips and drink. Of course, I use my subway rewards card and the CSR mentions that I have a $2 reward, do I want to use it. Well, yah, thanks. Get to the car and pull out the nozzle and drive back to Rt 81 for the wonderful stop and go traffic. Total stop time: 15 minutes. And yes, I eat the sub while stopped in traffic. Easy to do because there's lots of stopping and no, there isn't a better route (per google maps) to get around this. I drive until I get to Blacksburg, 720 miles from the stop.

I did test drive a model 3 performance. Following the drive, I was talking with the sales guy about various things. I mentioned that DW and I may drive up to Nova Scotia for a vacation. Tesla guy said he never brought his Tesla on trips. He always brings an ICE car. Makes sense to me. If I had to stop at a supercharger and eat at an Olive Garden when I just wanted a Subway tuna sub on Italian with lettuce and provolone, I would be unhappy, even if there were a super duper charger.

I am again starting to look at cars. The Cadillac dealer will send me an invite when the Lyriq event is scheduled for their location. I'm looking again at CT4 sedans in both the low end 4 cyl turbo and 6 cyl turbo blackwing versions. The "other" dealer called and one of their Blackwings has been on the lot for too long so they're selling at MSRP. The Audi dealer east of my (12 miles) just got in a red RS3 so my son and I are going to go look at it.
Been there, done that, totally get it and you can keep on doing that.

For myself, I experimented with a different way. Getting a bit more 'I get there when I get there' attitude, and 'enjoy the trip', etc. atitude. And for trips (at least those under 500 miles) that framing for me has been as enjoyable as the 'game-ification' of getting from A to B as fast as humanly possible on 4 wheels. Getting there fast is fun, but relaxing along the way can also be fun.

If i wanted to go over 500 miles, I would want to use either an ICE or an EV with faster charging DCFC.
We bought a Nissan Leaf S two months ago. Ended up flying into Los Angeles to pick it up. The drive back was interesting. 277 miles - right at about the limit for one charge (150 mile range). We decided to charge twice as it would have been touch and go on just one charge especially if we didn't time it right. First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. In an ICE car we wouldn't have had to stop a single time.

We knew the car would be worthless for anything other than commuting. What we didn't realize is how often we need to charge it. The Prius C had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. After driving 80 miles in the Prius C there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

We should have waited and bought the Corolla hybrid. Right now I'm really kicking myself for being stupid and buying the Leaf.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
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just frank
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by just frank »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:21 am
We bought a Nissan Leaf S two months ago. Ended up flying into Los Angeles to pick it up. The drive back was interesting. 277 miles - right at about the limit for one charge (150 mile range). We decided to charge twice as it would have been touch and go on just one charge especially if we didn't time it right. First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. In an ICE car we wouldn't have had to stop a single time.

We knew the car would be worthless for anything other than commuting. What we didn't realize is how often we need to charge it. The Prius C had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. After driving 80 miles in the Prius C there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

We should have waited and bought the Corolla hybrid. Right now I'm really kicking myself for being stupid and buying the Leaf.
As someone who owned (and road-tripped) a 2013 LEAF with 2/3rds that range for 40 months... I hear you brother! I loved that car (also mostly used as a commuter), but I didn't even LOOK at the current LEAFs as an option.

I'm obv willing to put up with some (v minor) hassles, but the Bolt is a much better value proposition. I know that stated range IS hit hard in the winter (30% around here), that Nissan overstates their range (IMO) AND that I want a 40 mile cushion for 'range anxiety'.

Case 1: Bolt is 260 miles, 220 HW. Take 30% off for winter...that's 155. Take 40 off for a cushion and you have 115 miles 'no thinking' range in winter.

Case 2: (Hypothetical, I am making up numbers). 150 mile range, call it 125 on the HW. Now in winter that would be 90 miles. With a 40 mile cushion, that would be 50 'no thinking' range in winter.

115 miles (Bolt) vs 50 miles (LEAF Gen 2). Not to mention the Chademo DCFC interface with very few stalls.

I guess you don't have a garage with an L2 where you can just trivially plug it in like your phone once a day?

You should sell the LEAF and get what you want, when you can.
7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:35 am
7eight9 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:21 am
We bought a Nissan Leaf S two months ago. Ended up flying into Los Angeles to pick it up. The drive back was interesting. 277 miles - right at about the limit for one charge (150 mile range). We decided to charge twice as it would have been touch and go on just one charge especially if we didn't time it right. First stop at a Walmart - chargers in the parking lot. No CHAdeMO chargers. On to a mall where there were charges. Drove around for a while and finally found them. There were four chargers - three in use and one broken. We waited for a BMW to finish charging. Plugged in and went to walk the mall. Walked around - came back and the car wasn't charged up enough. Walked again. Then drove on. Stopped in Baker. Found chargers behind the World's Tallest Thermometer. The first two we tried were out of order. The third worked. Went inside and killed a bunch of time waiting. In an ICE car we wouldn't have had to stop a single time.

We knew the car would be worthless for anything other than commuting. What we didn't realize is how often we need to charge it. The Prius C had a 9.5 gallon tank. The Prius C achieved 47.5mpg over 80K+ miles. So roughly a 450 mile range from full to empty. After driving 80 miles in the Prius C there were another 370 miles to go. In the Leaf there are only 70 more miles. Commute for two more days in the Prius? No problem. Commute for two more days in the Leaf? Call AAA for a tow because it will be out of electrons on the side of the road.

We should have waited and bought the Corolla hybrid. Right now I'm really kicking myself for being stupid and buying the Leaf.
As someone who owned (and road-tripped) a 2013 LEAF with 2/3rds that range for 40 months... I hear you brother! I loved that car (also mostly used as a commuter), but I didn't even LOOK at the current LEAFs as an option.

I'm obv willing to put up with some (v minor) hassles, but the Bolt is a much better value proposition. I know that stated range IS hit hard in the winter (30% around here), that Nissan overstates their range (IMO) AND that I want a 40 mile cushion for 'range anxiety'.

Case 1: Bolt is 260 miles, 220 HW. Take 30% off for winter...that's 155. Take 40 off for a cushion and you have 115 miles 'no thinking' range in winter.

Case 2: (Hypothetical, I am making up numbers). 150 mile range, call it 125 on the HW. Now in winter that would be 90 miles. With a 40 mile cushion, that would be 50 'no thinking' range in winter.

115 miles (Bolt) vs 50 miles (LEAF Gen 2). Not to mention the Chademo DCFC interface with very few stalls.

I guess you don't have a garage with an L2 where you can just trivially plug it in like your phone once a day?

You should sell the LEAF and get what you want, when you can.
I have a garage with just an ordinary 110v plug. Right now I'm plugging it in every other day. The experience has not be rewarding.

In my opinion the 2012 Prius C was a far superior car. Unfortunately it was totalled.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
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breakaway
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by breakaway »

Replying to the original thread of "Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles"

I had a Prius Hybrid for almost 11 years. Total cost of ownership for me was: $134 pm for 129 months.
Purchased in 2010, sold in 2021. Total 129 months.
Bought for $22k, sold for just over $9k. :beer Spent $2200 on service etc. Spent about $2500 on fuel.
aquaman
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by aquaman »

smitcat wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:12 am
just frank wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:06 am
smitcat wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:00 pm I am revisiting looking at EV's and really want to know what people actually pay for charging on trips - do you know what the current costs are and how to locate the fast chargers out there?
I'm in the middle of a EV vacation right now, and will share my (non-Tesla) process....

You need a route planner. My trip was about 400 miles one way mostly along I-95, and I wanted to arrive with at least 40% charge (so I can drive around my destination after arrival). Should I stop once and charge for a long time, should I stop three times and charge for a little? What if there are changes in elevation along my route that affect battery usage...do I need to take that into account?

ABRP (A better route planner) is a free app (with pay upgrades) that does all that thinking for you. I use the free version on my phone. I told it my start and destination, and that I was starting with 100% SOC (charge) and wanted to have 50% SOC when I arrived 400 miles later. It then found DCFCs along my route, and (knowing the SOC-dependent charging speed of my vehicle) found the **optimum** stopping points and charging times for total travel time. I did this in my living room the morning before I left, waiting for my kid to wake up.

It found two stops, the first in a large shopping area, the latter in an older small mall. Both less than 1 mile off the HW. It suggested about 90 minutes charging (total) and 6.5 hrs drive time. So 8 hours with stops.

That took 3 minutes.

I then pasted these stops into a second app, Plugshare, to check their ratings/availability/ and on-line status. PlugShare also tells you prices. Both stops were well rated (9/10 and 10/10) with a large number of stalls (12 and 6, IIRC), and people posting that they had used them the day before, so not much to worry about

I noted that 3 of the 12 stalls in the first place (EA) were off-line. 9 working would be aok.

That took another 2 minutes.

Then for my trip I pasted the first DCFC into my nav app (app #3) (I like AppleMaps bc I like the real time traffic avoidance) and used that. My Bolt has wireless Apple CarPlay, so I get the nav on a 10" screen. There was some traffic which I got rerouted around, adding 20 miles to get there faster... this was not an issue, bc ARBP was giving me a 60 mile 'buffer' of range at arrival at each station... no worries.

At the first DCFC there were 12 stalls, and all **looked** like they were operational. There were two Kona's there already charging. Since I knew that 3 were off-line, I checked the EA app, reminded myself that 2, 6 and 7 were down, and parked at #5. Started App #4 (Electrify America pay app) and was charging in <30 seconds.

We then checked google (app #5) for restaurants that would pass muster with my picky passengers, and found a nice Italian sit down place a 3 minute walk away. And had a lovely lunch there, and were back in the car in 60 minutes. Technically, ABRP doesn't take our food prefs into account (yet) so we had to risk our food choices given the constraint of DCFC picked by ABRP. I had previously noted in Plugshare that there was a McDonanlds next to the DCFC, so I knew we wouldn't starve, LOL.

After the hour charge (ABRP said we needed 45 minutes, we overcharged), we could've made it to the destination on 'fumes', but we kept the second stop so to arrive with a half full tank. At that place, we stretched our legs for 20 minutes just to top off the car, and were on our way. There there were 6 stalls and one other EV charging). All were working (EVGo). I opened a 6th app (EVGO) and charging initiated in 30 seconds.

The DCFC's charged me I think $0.30/kWh for 70 kWh of juice and 250 miles of range. Like $22. Same as 'cheap gas' I suppose.

At my rental house destination, I brought a L1 EVSE and a 25' 12 AWG extension cord. I found a suitable plug within extension cord range and have charged at 1.4 kW maybe 12 hours a day while here. This adds 50-60 miles per day, which is all we need. We will leave to go home with a 75% full tank. We are 'stealing' about $20 worth of juice on a $2.5k rental. I can sleep well at night. I might leave an extra box of K-cups or some booze as compensation.

---------

Summary: My trip here required 6 apps and 6 total minutes of my attention !! Oh, my aching index finger. There was no stress and no drama and no range anxiety. The car never went below 50 miles range. I have been doing this EV car trip thing for awhile (7 years) so it is pretty smooth. If I drove a Tesla, I think the in car nav might've done all of that app work in a singe app on-screen. I dunno. In practice, the 6 apps were familiar and I didn't need that integration. So went my experience with the 'hellscape' that is currently 'non-existent' non-Tesla DCFCs, in an EV has 'horrible' DCFC speed (according to EV drivers).

----------

Anecdote: At the first stop, after lunch, I noticed a man in a suit, next to a rather posh EV (forget which) in stall #6. He looked exasperated and was yelling into his phone (to an EA representative). I asked him how he was doing and if I could help him. He barked out that he had been there for 30 minutes and not gotten an electron yet, and moved his car twice, just to a third stall (#6). I told him (1) that stalls 2, 6 and 7 were listed off line in the apps (but not on the units) and (2) that the units screens were reporting '0 kW' for several minutes after the charge had started to flow (per the vehicle display). He thanked me for the info, and I boogied.

This fellow had spent $$$ for an EV that could charge 2-3X faster than mine, saving him 20-30 minutes per stop. And then was uninformed about the apps/process. And didn't even look in the EA app to check stall status. And in the end stressed himself out and cost himself 30 minutes.

He will now rant on line about how he should've gotten a Tesla, and how EA is awful, and there are no working DCFCs, even along I-95. I know, bc I read posts like that every day.

My conclusion: a DCFC station is NOT like a gas station. No attendant. The margins are too low to pay for one. When a gas pump goes off line (which I see lots of) the attendant hangs a sign on it. At a DCFC station, the unit reports back to the cloud, and the app pushes out the info. You might think the unit would display in big red letter that it is off-line, nope. Secondary effect... lots of the credit card readers on these unattended machines get hacked... so I will never us the CC feature (having my card stolen after a single use). So I have to have a few apps/accounts set up to charge. Meh.

Thing 1: I think the EA machines ARE a little wonky, should have more up-time and better communication. And I am sure that that will happen over the next year or two. They're new. EVGO used to be bad, now they are fine. This is the herky-jerky nature of 'progress'.

Thing 2: the legacy car makers and their dealers are dropping the ball on educating their customer. I have never gotten any useful info on how to do any of the above from a car salesman. None of them even drive EVs themselves and have no clue.
Thank you for all the details.
As we look into this more it appears this is a bit too early for us to make the change.
I also really appreciate all the details and find this to be one of the most helpful posts in this thread.

To me, this sounds like a ton of hassle without an associated payoff. Unfortunately, it sounds like the infrastructure is still a good 5-7+ years away from ironing out the kinks (unless you have a Tesla, and even then it still has a ton of pain points), although I'd certainly love for this assessment to be proven overly pessimistic. I also actually get the reason that many EV enthusiasts read the above and think that it's not a big deal. As I've previously mentioned, I much prefer manual transmissions myself and find them quite enjoyable. Most other drivers obviously disagree, as there is very little demand for them and most people have no idea how to drive them.

The difference, to me, is that I don't think that there is any way to reasonably characterize the "on the go" charging process as somehow making EV ownership more fun, easier, more dynamic, etc... Instead, it is something that makes road trips slower, more rigid and less flexible, and even at current elevated gas prices, the "on the go" fast charging prices won't save you any money either.

I do very much appreciate the info though and am finding the overall thread quite helpful.
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