Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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LadyGeek
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

HomeStretch wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:15 am
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:59 am
HomeStretch wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:09 am
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 8:25 pm … What about Fidelity and Schwab. Do they give you anything in writing to confirm that they've accepted your attorney-prepared DPOA? …
Yes (Fidelity).

I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. After acceptance of the submitted DPOAs, we received secured messages in their online account and in my online account that the POA set up was completed. In their online accounts, they can view who has DPOA access. In my online account, their accounts show up on the side bar under the heading “authorized accounts.” There is also a notation at the end of their monthly statement listing my name (I don’t recall the wording).

My only issues with the DPOA process/access:
(1) Fidelity reps/local office gave inaccurate information about the agent’s (me) ability to do transactions online in a CMA such as Bill Pay. We ended up changing the CMA account registration to “joint owners”.
(2) in the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
Have you checked the access level? See: How to Authorize Others to Access Your Accounts

Your issues sound like your access is restricted to Inquiry Access. I recently received Inquiry Access for a family member's account and have the same visibility / control as you describe. It's appropriate for what's intended. In your case, see if you've been given the wrong access level.
Unfortunately, it was not an inquiry-access issue. I ran into these issues after my parents’ attorney-drafted DPOAs were accepted by Fidelity. Others have posted in the Fidelity one-stop-shop thread about the limitations too (which are not just limited to Fidelity). It’s simply that trying to manage someone’s finances completely under a DPOA is more cumbersome or restrictive than managing one’s own. I understand that’s by design but when one is also helping parents with living in their own home, healthcare matters, etc., the limitations/online capability limits just add to the time burden.

The biggest issue was the Fidelity reps not having a good understanding of how the CMAs function for the attorney-in-fact (AIF). The information repeatedly given to me was erroneous. I as AIF could not even access Bill Pay which was the primary reason for the CMAs. One rep finally said that the CMA is not a Fidelity product so to just keep “trying it out” to see if it worked. I finally gave up and the CMAs were changed to add me as a joint owner. Granted my issues were more time-sensitive as I was separating my parents’ finances for Medicaid purposes. So the 4-6 weeks I lost while trying to make the CMAs works as AIF was a bit stressful. It’s all good now. But I think it’s important for anyone managing finances under a POA or agent access to understand the delays and limitations especially if the grantor is truly incapacitated and can no longer help with eliminating roadblocks.
Those are excellent points, thank you.

I need full control of my Mom's account to add bank accounts for ACH transfers. I need to (1) Take distributions from her Traditional IRA and deposit them in her bank account and (2) Transfer money from her bank to a taxable account.

I am also in agreement that, regardless of great customer experiences with Fidelity, the information can indeed be incorrect. During the POA application process, my rep stated that the form did not need to be notarized because I was in PA, not CA.

Looking at the actual DPOA form (Durable POA - what I filled out), a notarized signature was indeed required. CA has a different method, hence the extra directions for CA residents. A quickly returned phone call clarified that I was correct.

The forms I completed were pre-filled by Fidelity. It's a great convenience and I really like the ability to save the PDF changes.

However, reading and understanding what those forms mean are two different things. My Mom's name and address were correct, but the account applications had the Mailing address "Same as residential" box checked. 99% of the time, it's a no-brainer and the box was automatically checked.

My Mom is in memory care, which is a qualified medical expense. Her physical address is at the memory care facility, but she can't receive any mail (nor is she competent to understand the content). I'll be executing a tax strategy to draw down her IRA (taxable income) and then claim her care facility fees as a medical expense. Essentially, I need to show that she's physically at this center, but must have all mail correspondence come to me.

So, I unchecked the box and entered my home address for her mailing address (versus entering my home address as my Mom's). Otherwise, the IRS will think my home is her memory care facility. Not good. I also discussed this with the rep and explained what I did. He agreed that this was the right approach.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Here's an update:

Fidelity sent me a secure message a few days ago and bounced the durable POA form. :shock: My Standby POA + physician's statements were already accepted, so I was wondering why I needed that form in the first place. I replied to the message explaining just that and supplied the accepted forms.

Today, a senior Fidelity rep called me to say that everything was straightened out and my Mom's new accounts were created with a zero balance. The next step is for me to sign a Fidelity transfer of assets form (handled via secure message). I'll get the transfer form in a day or so.

(I also had a polite conversation with the senior rep about the POA mixup. Apparently, the (junior) rep who provided the initial guidance was not experienced with POAs. They're stretched thin and trying to do what they can to help. He appreciated the feedback and will follow-up internally.)

Since this is a POA, Fidelity will take care of the transfer - it can't be done online as you would do for a normal account. I confirmed that I have POA access (full agent authorization) at Vanguard. Once the paperwork is complete, the accounts will be transferred to Fidelity.

POA access makes things a bit more difficult when you try to do things online. So far, I don't see any way to add / view beneficiaries for my Mom's new accounts. I also don't see a way to add a bank online. (Fidelity has a form I can complete for that.) I'll wait until the funds transfer and the accounts go active before I start digging into the details.

The Fidelity rep stated that anything I can't do online can be accomplished with a phone call or visit to the local office.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by bling »

a bit of a naive question...is the primary reason for setting up DPOA access for lawful purposes? what happens if you knew the username/password of your parents' account (because they told you) and you managed the finances on their behalf that way? and you also had a lawyer written DPOA while you were doing this?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

I asked that question when I first obtained POA for my Mom's bank accounts. In any case, I was present with my Mom when this was done and asked that same question. The bank officer said that I would be accessing the account "with her permission". I have no clue if that was legally OK, but I am on file as POA with the bank. If anything happens, I'm covered.

Additional info: Banks have their own POA forms. If your parents are able, go together with them to the bank and have them complete a POA form. You will then be able to discuss anything needed directly with the bank and make transactions on their behalf. That includes doing things in person - what I'm doing now.

The bank may also offer to supply you with a separate login with access to their account info.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by cas »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:54 pm The Fidelity rep stated that anything I can't do online can be accomplished with a phone call or visit to the local office.
I know I've seen RetiredAL post a list of what has to be done over the phone (can't be done online), when the version of the Fidelity form that uses the actual DPOA is implemented. I think it was upstream in this thread and within the last couple of weeks.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks! I think I found it: Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless.

I'll figure it out after the funds are transferred. I prefer to do everything online, but having good phone support and a local brick-n-mortar office close by, it's far better than the support I have now at Vanguard.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by cas »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:18 pm Thanks! I think I found it: Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless.
Apparently my memory is bad, and this post by HomeStretch is more what I remember:
I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. [ . . .]

[. . .]In the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
(Sorry, I was heading out the door when I posted this morning, and didn't have time to look.)
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by cas »

bling wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:20 am a bit of a naive question...is the primary reason for setting up DPOA access for lawful purposes? what happens if you knew the username/password of your parents' account (because they told you) and you managed the finances on their behalf that way? and you also had a lawyer written DPOA while you were doing this?
I'd say setting up the DPOA/agent access is at least as much for practical logistical purposes as for lawful purposes. Leaving aside the legal issues...

The practical/logistical problem with the (honest and helpful) adult child taking the "I'll just log in to parents' accounts, and the computer won't know I'm not them" approach is that it works only as long as something doesn't arise that requires a phone call or a signed piece of paper. If you don't have some level of officially recognized authorized agent access on the account, that means the parent is going to have to be physically and mentally able to get through the phone security process or sign the paper. And if they can't do that, then you may encounter delays and problems with getting yourself recognized as an authorized agent using the lawyer prepared DPOA.

For example, when Congress waived the requirement to take RMD's in 2020, my parent's 401(k) plan required a phone call before they would suspend the automated RMD process for my parent for that year. Not possible to do it online. Parent was too deep into dementia to handle a phone call. Fortunately, parent had previously officially gone through the 401(k)s process to give me POA powers over the account, so the 401(k) plan was willing to talk to me on the phone with me able to go through their official phone security process.

Earlier in this thread, HomeStretch and LadyGeek have shared personal examples of the problems that can arise if a parent is unable to get through a phone call or signature process, especially a signature that needs to be notarized. (Although they have had problems even *with* having official agent access/DPOA in place.)

And as another example that has been on the boglehead's front page in recent days: Locked Out of Mom's I Bond Account

(Basic gist is that poster had been using parent's login/password to manage parent's I bonds. Poster got locked out of parent's Treasury Direct account, which requires a phone call to get account unlocked. Parent would need poster's help talking to TD support, and poster was worried about putting the parent through a 3 way call with a probable long hold time.

Then, in a later post, poster was trying to help parent fill out the TD paperwork granting the poster official POA access to the parent's TD account. Although parent was able to physically get to their bank for the necessary signature certification, the bank was unwilling to cooperate with TD's procedures and would not give the necessary certification of the signature. )
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:54 pm ...POA access makes things a bit more difficult when you try to do things online. So far, I don't see any way to add / view beneficiaries for my Mom's new accounts. I also don't see a way to add a bank online. (Fidelity has a form I can complete for that.) I'll wait until the funds transfer and the accounts go active before I start digging into the details.

The Fidelity rep stated that anything I can't do online can be accomplished with a phone call or visit to the local office.
cas wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:36 pm ...Apparently my memory is bad, and this post by HomeStretch is more what I remember:
I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. [ . . .]

[. . .]In the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
(Sorry, I was heading out the door when I posted this morning, and didn't have time to look.)
My Mom's accounts are now at Fidelity. I completed the Fidelity asset transfer form on 9/12, they moved via ACATS on 9/13. My Mom's balance at Vanguard is now 0.00.

Yesterday, I get an email saying "Welcome to Fidelity, LadyGeek's Mom!" The email contained a bunch of links for setting up your new account. I had a thought - I signed the account applications as POA, so why can't I get direct online access? I created a new account with her credentials and got stuck because there was no security code (makes sense) and had to call them.

Less than 2 minutes after calling, I spoke with a rep. Sure, you can create the online account as POA. After answering several questions (including her account numbers), the rep gave me the security code... and I was in. :beer

The first thing I did was setup her beneficiaries. Next, I linked her bank account. I'll setup Quicken when I get a chance.

If anyone is in a similar situation and stuck with limited online access as POA, try asking Fidelity to setup an online account for this purpose. My own account has visibility to her assets as POA, but it's far, far easier to be the account owner.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:37 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:54 pm ...POA access makes things a bit more difficult when you try to do things online. So far, I don't see any way to add / view beneficiaries for my Mom's new accounts. I also don't see a way to add a bank online. (Fidelity has a form I can complete for that.) I'll wait until the funds transfer and the accounts go active before I start digging into the details.

The Fidelity rep stated that anything I can't do online can be accomplished with a phone call or visit to the local office.
cas wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 2:36 pm ...Apparently my memory is bad, and this post by HomeStretch is more what I remember:
I recently transferred my parents’ accounts (Taxable, Traditional & Roth IRAs) to and set up CMAs at Fidelity using attorney-prepared DPOAs. [ . . .]

[. . .]In the online account, the agent (me) cannot make online transfers between accounts, view account statements, link external bank accounts, etc. There is also a limit for the first 90(?) days as to how much Fidelity will allow me as agent to transfer out of the accounts.
(Sorry, I was heading out the door when I posted this morning, and didn't have time to look.)
My Mom's accounts are now at Fidelity. I completed the Fidelity asset transfer form on 9/12, they moved via ACATS on 9/13. My Mom's balance at Vanguard is now 0.00.

Yesterday, I get an email saying "Welcome to Fidelity, LadyGeek's Mom!" The email contained a bunch of links for setting up your new account. I had a thought - I signed the account applications as POA, so why can't I get direct online access? I created a new account with her credentials and got stuck because there was no security code (makes sense) and had to call them.

Less than 2 minutes after calling, I spoke with a rep. Sure, you can create the online account as POA. After answering several questions (including her account numbers), the rep gave me the security code... and I was in. :beer

The first thing I did was setup her beneficiaries. Next, I linked her bank account. I'll setup Quicken when I get a chance.

If anyone is in a similar situation and stuck with limited online access as POA, try asking Fidelity to setup an online account for this purpose. My own account has visibility to her assets as POA, but it's far, far easier to be the account owner.
Thanks for this. Hadn't seen your post until now. I'm guessing you are a fan of Fidelity re: POA and related matters. Is this correct? I really want to settle my mind over all this and move my account from Vanguard if that isn't a frying pan to the fire kind of decision.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

It's not so much that I moved into Fidelity, but that I moved out of Vanguard. I went with Fidelity because myself and another family member already had investments there. (I have inquiry access into my family member's account.) I didn't look at Schwab for that reason, but I understand Schwab could have handled this POA just fine.

In 2021, I was denied creating a login for my Mom at Vanguard - even though I had full POA access (full agent authorization). Fortunately, Vanguard allowed me to link her account to a bank and modify beneficiaries under my login.

Fidelity wants you to complete a form or visit an office to do this. Fund transfers can be done, but are also inconvenient under POA access. Hence, my desire for online direct access.

Vanguard's new account maintenance fee for mutual fund only accounts under $1 million was the last straw. I was unable to upgrade my Mom's account to a brokerage online. After a long wait for phone support, the rep was unable to upgrade the account on his end. He mailed me a form - but it required a notary signature. Also, there was a very real possibility that upgrading the account to a brokerage required a new POA. That simply can not happen with my Mom. (She's not mentally competent to sign anything.)

All of this together means that I have little confidence in Vanguard handling transitions to inherited accounts in a timely manner when she passes. (Hopefully, that won't be for a long time...). So, goodbye Vanguard.

Fidelity is not perfect, but they have very good support and the website is well designed. I can do everything I need without getting frustrated.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:02 pm It's not so much that I moved into Fidelity, but that I moved out of Vanguard. I went with Fidelity because myself and another family member already had investments there. (I have inquiry access into my family member's account.) I didn't look at Schwab for that reason, but I understand Schwab could have handled this POA just fine.

In 2021, I was denied creating a login for my Mom at Vanguard - even though I had full POA access (full agent authorization). Fortunately, Vanguard allowed me to link her account to a bank and modify beneficiaries under my login.

Fidelity wants you to complete a form or visit an office to do this. Fund transfers can be done, but are also inconvenient under POA access. Hence, my desire for online direct access.

Vanguard's new account maintenance fee for mutual fund only accounts under $1 million was the last straw. I was unable to upgrade my Mom's account to a brokerage online. After a long wait for phone support, the rep was unable to upgrade the account on his end. He mailed me a form - but it required a notary signature. Also, there was a very real possibility that upgrading the account to a brokerage required a new POA. That simply can not happen with my Mom. (She's not mentally competent to sign anything.)

All of this together means that I have little confidence in Vanguard handling transitions to inherited accounts in a timely manner when she passes. (Hopefully, that won't be for a long time...). So, goodbye Vanguard.

Fidelity is not perfect, but they have very good support and the website is well designed. I can do everything I need without getting frustrated.
Thanks LadyGeek - There's a Fidelity office about 30 miles from me, so I'll try to get there for a face-to-face. I was thinking about transferring a smaller amount to a new Roth IRA that I set up there to run through the process and see how well they can handle my DPOA needs. If everything works, I can move the rest from Vanguard to Fidelity. I hope I have a successful experience, as it will be a load off my mind to dis-entangle from Vanguard. Been with Vanguard forever and wish I didn't have to go to this bother, but unfortunately don't feel I have much choice at this point.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:38 pm … There's a Fidelity office about 30 miles from me, so I'll try to get there for a face-to-face. I was thinking about transferring a smaller amount to a new Roth IRA that I set up there to run through the process and see how well they can handle my DPOA needs. If everything works, I can move the rest from Vanguard to Fidelity. I hope I have a successful experience, as it will be a load off my mind to dis-entangle from Vanguard. Been with Vanguard forever and wish I didn't have to go to this bother, but unfortunately don't feel I have much choice at this point.
What’s nice about Fidelity (as compared to Vanguard) is that you can do all of this fairly easily online without visiting the local office if you want. You can open the account, upload your DPOA with a notarized Fidelity form and, at a later date, initiate an account transfer from Vanguard all online. The 800# reps are 24/7 and are pretty helpful if you run into any issues.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:38 pm
Thanks LadyGeek - There's a Fidelity office about 30 miles from me, so I'll try to get there for a face-to-face. I was thinking about transferring a smaller amount to a new Roth IRA that I set up there to run through the process and see how well they can handle my DPOA needs. If everything works, I can move the rest from Vanguard to Fidelity. I hope I have a successful experience, as it will be a load off my mind to dis-entangle from Vanguard. Been with Vanguard forever and wish I didn't have to go to this bother, but unfortunately don't feel I have much choice at this point.
Do be aware that Fidelity does not allow an Agent's ID to transfer funds online. You have to call them, but they do take calls 24/7.

Schwab will allow an Agent's ID to transfer funds online to an already established routing point.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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^^^ That's a very important point. As I noted previously, I'm at Fidelity to consolidate assets and keep this simple. Otherwise, I would have considered Schwab.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:59 pm ^^^ That's a very important point. As I noted previously, I'm at Fidelity to consolidate assets and keep this simple. Otherwise, I would have considered Schwab.
My only gripe about Schwab is that I tried to set up a call from a rep online a while back, and had an arranged time to be called. Never heard from them. Not a good sign.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

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LadyGeek wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:37 pm

If anyone is in a similar situation and stuck with limited online access as POA, try asking Fidelity to setup an online account for this purpose. My own account has visibility to her assets as POA, but it's far, far easier to be the account owner.
Good to know!
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks!
Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:28 pm My only gripe about Schwab is that I tried to set up a call from a rep online a while back, and had an arranged time to be called. Never heard from them. Not a good sign.
I wouldn't base an important decision like this on a single missed phone call. If there was no follow-up to see why the call was never made (or they called and no one answered), you don't know what happened or why.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

I just received a letter from Fidelity stating that my authorization level is Durable Power of Attorney. That's an authorization level (what I'm allowed to do), not a legal description.

My actual paperwork is a Standby Power of Attorney with two physician's statements to make it active. In my situation, there is no going back so it is essentially permanent (durable).
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

I just found out that my bank-issued POA was not in effect for one of my Mom's CDs. :shock:

Each CD has a different account number. For some reason, the POA was not attached to that account. For everything else, yes.

I had no problems cashing-out ("breaking") a different CD. For this one CD, no.

In any case, the bank manager told me that they no longer issue POA forms. They now follow a process where you bring in your legal POA document. It's sent (faxed) to bank legal team for review and approval. Once that happens, I can be added as POA access.

No problem. I'll return with the documents and get it done.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Fremdon Ferndock »

Re: banking. For my mother we were able to create a joint checking account at her bank with her, myself, and my sister as account holders. We simply presented the DPOA at the branch bank and voila' it was done without any detailed review of the DPOA. Others, such as Lady Geek, indicate that the bank had to fax the DPOA somewhere for review. That never happened with us. I assume that with that authority we could have done CDs and anything else at that bank, yes?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Yes. With that authority, you can do anything as the owner of the account. The first CD that was cashed-in previously was one in which I had changed the maturity term from 2-years down to 3 months (I was within the 10 day renewal window to make changes). No problem as POA.

In my situation, I honestly don't know why the POA wasn't attached to the second CD. It's not worth asking to find out.

I returned to the bank today. They had already completed their checklist and approved the POA. I didn't ask if they sent it to their legal team. Why? Experience has shown many times over that when you have a done deal, don't ask questions. An innocent question can cause them pause to rethink what they did.

All they said was that having the POA document presented in-person to them was all that was needed. They also confirmed (again) that they don't do bank-issued POAs any more. I politely explained what was needed and cashed-out the CD. Done.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by rossington »

Fremdon Ferndock wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 3:59 pm Has this happened to anyone?
You think you’ve done everything right: Your parents or other relatives have signed a durable power of attorney. Among other things, it allows you to handle their finances — taxes, bills, bank accounts, real estate sales — if they become incapacitated.

Everyone sleeps better. Months or years later, suddenly or gradually, the time comes when older family members can no longer manage transactions on their own.

You take the witnessed and notarized document to a financial institution — a big brokerage firm like Wells Fargo or Ameriprise, or a national or regional bank or credit union. And officials say no, they won’t honor your power of attorney.

They insist that the account owners sign the institution’s own power of attorney form — very unwelcome news, because by now the older account holders may not be competent to sign legal forms.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/10/heal ... rless.html

I'm concerned about my Vanguard accounts, since their POA form only lets you name one person as POA. What if I become incapacitated and then something happens to my POA and there are no contingent POAs? Might have to move that Vanguard account after all to a more rational financial organization. Anybody know what Schwab and Fidelity are doing?
***FYI***

*Bumping this thread with (Dated 2023) information from Vanguard*

Don't know how you made out OP but,

Apparently they do accept attorney-drafted DPOA's.

Please see "Durable Power of Attorney" on page 20:

https://investor.vanguard.com/content/d ... ng-doc.pdf

Anyone have any new information concerning this issue?
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
cas
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by cas »

rossington wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:35 am
***FYI***

*Bumping this thread with (Dated 2023) information from Vanguard*

Don't know how you made out OP but,

Apparently they do accept attorney-drafted DPOA's.

Please see "Durable Power of Attorney" on page 20:

https://investor.vanguard.com/content/d ... ng-doc.pdf

Anyone have any new information concerning this issue?
This isn't "new" information, but it is always useful to start with Vanguard's current specific information on the topic:

-Log in

-Either type "agent authorization" into the search and then click on the "Add or Remove Access to Your Account" link or go to https://personal.vanguard.com/us/litera ... nput=L005A and click "Complete Online". (You won't really be completing it online. You'll be stopping once you get to the page with useful information.)

-After you click "Complete Online," consent to the Electronic Delivery and click Continue

-On the page that comes up, right under the "What type of account access would you like to grant or receive?" question, there is a red box that says "Compare Levels of Access". Click on that.

-A chart showing 5 levels of agent authorization and a specific list of tasks they allow will pop up.

Which of those sets of tasks are you interested in your agent having?

My understanding is that, once upon a time, what a general durable POA could do was jump start your agent into getting the "Agent Authorization for an Incapacitated Person" level of agent authorization.

But that may not be Vanguard's current policy. (There was a whole big legal Pennsylvania kerfluffle with a 2010 Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision that seems to have caused a big problem*** with general durable POA for financial entities in Pennsylvania, followed by multiple attempts over multiple years where the Pennsylvania legislature tried (and apparently failed, at least in earlier attempts, since they then had to try again) to pass legislation with wording that would fix the problem. I have no idea where all that stands now and what Vanguard's legal department is having them do in response. Google "vine pennsylvania supreme court decision power of attorney" if you want to do your own research.)

You might have to talk to Vanguard to confirm their current policy. But people seem to have conversations on this topic with Vanguard where they and the CSR talk past one another. Having a thorough understanding of the 5 levels of agent authorization and their powers in front of you will probably improve your chances that you and the CSR will communicate more effectively.


*** Gist of the PA Supreme Court ruling and following problem:
Source: "However, in Vine v. State Employees' Retirement Board, the Supreme Court ruled that there is no third party immunity if the power of attorney itself is not valid. This presents a real problem for all those "third parties," like banks. The problem is that a power of attorney is not valid if the principal is not legally competent when he or she signs it. Furthermore, a power of attorney can be revoked at any time by a competent individual. It is essentially impossible for any third party to know whether a principal was competent when the power of attorney was signed. Similarly, there is no way to know whether a power of attorney has been revoked, if the agent has the original power of attorney to show to bankers, or stock brokers, or other third parties. The Supreme Court's ruling now effectively requires that the third parties verify that the principal was competent when the power of attorney was drafted and that the principal has not revoked it. Basically, that's an impossible task, and raises the possibility that banks and other third parties will no longer honor powers of attorneys."
gavinsiu
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by gavinsiu »

The issue have with POA in the past were
1. Find out that the POA wasn't been setup properly. Several times when I attempt to call Wells Fargo, I am told that the POA was not setup properly and I would have to fix it.

Mitigation: Test the POA by calling it after it's established.

2. Bank has a merger. When Wells Fargo absorb the bank that my mom used to belong to, they told me that the POA form was no longer valid. This should not be the case, since I would assume that any agreement made would still hold after a merger.

Mitigation: Contact the new bank to see if POA needs to be updated. In my case, this was necessary.

3. POA form gets update. I haven't had this happen, but I heard others on this forum mentioned that their form got updated and their current form become obsolete. This is a minor issue while my mom is still mentally healthy, but not so much if she is not. I don't know how to mitigate this. I can call them periodically to check but if the form becomes obsolete I wouldn't know how to re-establish POA if the person is already mentally incapacitated.

4. POA did not cover all accounts. Sometimes you have to specific which account the POA is applied to. I might find that a particular account is not covered.

Mitigation: Test out each account after it's establisshed.

5. Vendor say that they can't find the POA.

Mitigation: Make sure you keep a copy of POA form to be send to the vendor.

Question: What is the difference between Limited Power of Attorney vs a full? In the past, I have stuck to limited mostly because I adhere to the principle of least access, but now I think it may be better to go with full.
RetiredAL
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by RetiredAL »

gavinsiu wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 9:06 am The issue have with POA in the past were
1. Find out that the POA wasn't been setup properly. Several times when I attempt to call Wells Fargo, I am told that the POA was not setup properly and I would have to fix it.

Mitigation: Test the POA by calling it after it's established.

2. Bank has a merger. When Wells Fargo absorb the bank that my mom used to belong to, they told me that the POA form was no longer valid. This should not be the case, since I would assume that any agreement made would still hold after a merger.

Mitigation: Contact the new bank to see if POA needs to be updated. In my case, this was necessary.

3. POA form gets update. I haven't had this happen, but I heard others on this forum mentioned that their form got updated and their current form become obsolete. This is a minor issue while my mom is still mentally healthy, but not so much if she is not. I don't know how to mitigate this. I can call them periodically to check but if the form becomes obsolete I wouldn't know how to re-establish POA if the person is already mentally incapacitated.

4. POA did not cover all accounts. Sometimes you have to specific which account the POA is applied to. I might find that a particular account is not covered.

Mitigation: Test out each account after it's establisshed.

5. Vendor say that they can't find the POA.

Mitigation: Make sure you keep a copy of POA form to be send to the vendor.

Question: What is the difference between Limited Power of Attorney vs a full? In the past, I have stuck to limited mostly because I adhere to the principle of least access, but now I think it may be better to go with full.
When my Mom was declining, my parents made me as Joint, for their convenience, on their checking/credit-card/savings accounts. Primary Bank was WF. I assume this was the recommendation from their lawyer. Additionally there was Trust Account and 2 IRAs at Wells Fargo Advisors brokerage. When Mom passed, her name was removed from those accounts. Dad made me the Trustee. The Advisor had us do their internal POA form for the IRAs and accepted my authority for 6 years. When Dad's Advisor left WFA, it was decided to convert those to Wells Trade Accounts - no issue with the Trust account but lots of issues with the IRA where they claimed I was not registered on their computer system as POA and did not handle his RMD processing from requests he signed, causing us to miss RMD one year. Then Dad took ill And I had a several month battle with them over his external POA that kept getting lost or had missing parts. That's when I found Schwab's local office would gladly open and moving the IRAs based on me POA being Agent. Dad improved enough to be able to be taken to Schwab to sign for himself. Fast forward a few more years, Dad has passed last year. WF brokerage efficiently created a new EIN based Trust Account, then they got funky (different group) about transferring the assets and establishing step-up basis.

So my 3 adds: At a minimum, make sure you keep POA proof. 2nd, is that being Joint, nothing had to change with WF Bank. I did create and use a new EIN based Estate Checking account, but the old Dad SS based account is not closed, but has little balance in it as I've moved most auto-pays to the EIM based checking. His Credit-card is still used for Estate Expenses, although they removed is name from it just recently. 3rd, since I was joint on the other savings, I had zero issues closing them out and transferring those $ to the EIN Estate Checking.

Do note that his Estate is being split between just 2 - my sister and I.

For my personal records, each year I print the both the POA and Beneficiary records for DW and I and place them with our Estate Documents.

Edit to add: Dad's lawyer told be he's found WF to be very difficult to work with at the Lawyer level.
rossington
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by rossington »

cas wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 7:09 am
rossington wrote: Fri May 12, 2023 2:35 am
***FYI***

*Bumping this thread with (Dated 2023) information from Vanguard*

Don't know how you made out OP but,

Apparently they do accept attorney-drafted DPOA's.

Please see "Durable Power of Attorney" on page 20:

https://investor.vanguard.com/content/d ... ng-doc.pdf

Anyone have any new information concerning this issue?
This isn't "new" information, but it is always useful to start with Vanguard's current specific information on the topic:

-Log in

-Either type "agent authorization" into the search and then click on the "Add or Remove Access to Your Account" link or go to https://personal.vanguard.com/us/litera ... nput=L005A and click "Complete Online". (You won't really be completing it online. You'll be stopping once you get to the page with useful information.)

-After you click "Complete Online," consent to the Electronic Delivery and click Continue

-On the page that comes up, right under the "What type of account access would you like to grant or receive?" question, there is a red box that says "Compare Levels of Access". Click on that.

-A chart showing 5 levels of agent authorization and a specific list of tasks they allow will pop up.

Which of those sets of tasks are you interested in your agent having?

My understanding is that, once upon a time, what a general durable POA could do was jump start your agent into getting the "Agent Authorization for an Incapacitated Person" level of agent authorization.

But that may not be Vanguard's current policy. (There was a whole big legal Pennsylvania kerfluffle with a 2010 Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision that seems to have caused a big problem*** with general durable POA for financial entities in Pennsylvania, followed by multiple attempts over multiple years where the Pennsylvania legislature tried (and apparently failed, at least in earlier attempts, since they then had to try again) to pass legislation with wording that would fix the problem. I have no idea where all that stands now and what Vanguard's legal department is having them do in response. Google "vine pennsylvania supreme court decision power of attorney" if you want to do your own research.)

You might have to talk to Vanguard to confirm their current policy. But people seem to have conversations on this topic with Vanguard where they and the CSR talk past one another. Having a thorough understanding of the 5 levels of agent authorization and their powers in front of you will probably improve your chances that you and the CSR will communicate more effectively.


*** Gist of the PA Supreme Court ruling and following problem:
Source: "However, in Vine v. State Employees' Retirement Board, the Supreme Court ruled that there is no third party immunity if the power of attorney itself is not valid. This presents a real problem for all those "third parties," like banks. The problem is that a power of attorney is not valid if the principal is not legally competent when he or she signs it. Furthermore, a power of attorney can be revoked at any time by a competent individual. It is essentially impossible for any third party to know whether a principal was competent when the power of attorney was signed. Similarly, there is no way to know whether a power of attorney has been revoked, if the agent has the original power of attorney to show to bankers, or stock brokers, or other third parties. The Supreme Court's ruling now effectively requires that the third parties verify that the principal was competent when the power of attorney was drafted and that the principal has not revoked it. Basically, that's an impossible task, and raises the possibility that banks and other third parties will no longer honor powers of attorneys."
Thank you, after reading the OP's original post I checked and found the info I listed above. Since Vanguard does state in that paper that they do accept attorney drafted DPOA's I was wondering if anyone has been able to get them to accept one.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.
mptfan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by mptfan »

I've seen people advertising a financial power of attorney form for sale as part of a financial/legal package (Suze Orman comes to mind, I saw her pushing it on PBS) but what they don't tell you is their non-attorney drafted form is usually worthless since you have to fill out a separate form approved for each financial provider anyway.
Excelsior!
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Excelsior! »

A rather impressive inventory of things that do not work with Vanguard appears in “PETER L. KNOX, as attorney-in-fact for Margaret A. Knox under power of attorney, Plaintiff, v. THE VANGUARD GROUP, INC.; VANGUARD FIDUCIARY TRUST COMPANY; and VANGUARD MARKETING CORPORATION, Defendants.” Knox v. Vanguard Grp., Inc., Civil Action No. 15-13411-FDS, (D. Mass. Jan. 5, 2018)" which may be seen here: https://casetext.com/case/knox-v-vanguard-grp-inc-1
rich126
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by rich126 »

Excelsior! wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:02 pm A rather impressive inventory of things that do not work with Vanguard appears in “PETER L. KNOX, as attorney-in-fact for Margaret A. Knox under power of attorney, Plaintiff, v. THE VANGUARD GROUP, INC.; VANGUARD FIDUCIARY TRUST COMPANY; and VANGUARD MARKETING CORPORATION, Defendants.” Knox v. Vanguard Grp., Inc., Civil Action No. 15-13411-FDS, (D. Mass. Jan. 5, 2018)" which may be seen here: https://casetext.com/case/knox-v-vanguard-grp-inc-1
I had issues with Vanguard as a beneficiary for my late father. A ton of the frustration, waiting on hold, needing multiple phone calls, etc. could have easily been resolved quickly IF Vanguard had an office I could have gone to, even if it wasn't an actual Vanguard office but some office where a representative for Vanguard could have sat down with me and gone over what information they needed.

Unfortunately in the chase to cut expenses many online brokerages no longer have any kind of office or provide any kind of face to face meeting to quickly resolve issues and that creates a lot of stress and frustration on top of losing a loved one.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by legalwriter1 »

Lawyer here. When I send a demand letter on firm letterhead to the general counsel of the company that refuses to recognized the power of attorney, I usually get a better response. In my state of Utah (which has enacted the Uniform Power of Attorney Act), Utah Code section 75-9-120 establishes liability for any person or other entity that refuses to accept or acknowledge a power of attorney. Utah Code section 75-9-120 states that "[a] person that refuses . . . to accept an acknowledged power of attorney is subject to . . . a court order mandating acceptance of the power of attorney; and . . . liability for reasonable attorney's fees and costs incurred in any action or proceeding that confirms the validity of the power of attorney or mandates acceptance of the power of attorney." Most states have a similar provision.

This is a fee-shifting statute. In Matter of Locke, 16 Wash. App. 2d 1061 (2021), the Washington Court of Appeals even awarded attorney fees on appeal involving a case over a power of attorney document that included an assisted living facility as a named defendant that refuse to accept a power of attorney.

For bank accounts and other financial institutions with some clients as part of estate planning, I also recommend my client fill out a separate POA form with each financial institution. My POA form is like 19 pages long and covers a lot of different things.
afan
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by afan »

That is terrifying.
Essentially means that Vanguard can impose new conditions at any time and the only remedy is to move the assets elsewhere, assuming they will permit it.

I would say "close all your Vanguard accounts while you can", but it makes me wonder whether other banks, brokerages and mutual fund companies have similar language. Is a DPOA reliable anywhere?

In this case, the assets were in an IRA, so a trust would not solve the problem. The customer was stuck.

Would he have been any less stuck under a DPOA somewhere else?

It seems that Vanguard would require "certification" of the DPOA every time he needed to do something. That may have been essentially impossible. Would it require a trip to a bank or attorney, which the case implies would be capable of issuing a certification, every time there needed to be a distribution or a change in asset allocation? How much would that have cost the person who held the IRA?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by bsteiner »

Excelsior! wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:02 pm A rather impressive inventory of things that do not work with Vanguard appears in “PETER L. KNOX, as attorney-in-fact for Margaret A. Knox under power of attorney, Plaintiff, v. THE VANGUARD GROUP, INC.; VANGUARD FIDUCIARY TRUST COMPANY; and VANGUARD MARKETING CORPORATION, Defendants.” Knox v. Vanguard Grp., Inc., Civil Action No. 15-13411-FDS, (D. Mass. Jan. 5, 2018)" which may be seen here: https://casetext.com/case/knox-v-vanguard-grp-inc-1
Once I got to the part where it said that the son signed his mother's name to a form naming himself as beneficiary, I had a hunch as to how the decision would go.
cas
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by cas »

afan wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 1:28 pm That is terrifying.
Essentially means that Vanguard can impose new conditions at any time and the only remedy is to move the assets elsewhere, assuming they will permit it.

I would say "close all your Vanguard accounts while you can", but it makes me wonder whether other banks, brokerages and mutual fund companies have similar language. Is a DPOA reliable anywhere?

[. . .]
I am not a lawyer, so I have no idea what the body of Pennsylvania case law and legislation currently boils down to. But, somewhere in the mix of what is going on is seems to be this (2010) Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision (as summarized in this blog post):

(Pennsylvania is relevant because that is where Vanguard is headquartered.)
[. . .]By way of background, Pennsylvania law states that if a third party, like a bank, relies on a written power of attorney, then that third party is protected from claims by the principal that his or her agent acted improperly. In other words, the statute encourages banks and other third parties to rely on agents acting with powers of attorney. Moreover, the law imposes liability on any third party who does not follow the instructions of an agent, unless the third party has reasonable cause to ignore those instructions.[. . .]

However, in Vine v. State Employees' Retirement Board, the [Pennsylvania] Supreme Court ruled that there is no third party immunity if the power of attorney itself is not valid. This presents a real problem for all those "third parties," like banks. The problem is that a power of attorney is not valid if the principal is not legally competent when he or she signs it. Furthermore, a power of attorney can be revoked at any time by a competent individual. It is essentially impossible for any third party to know whether a principal was competent when the power of attorney was signed. Similarly, there is no way to know whether a power of attorney has been revoked, if the agent has the original power of attorney to show to bankers, or stock brokers, or other third parties. The Supreme Court's ruling now effectively requires that the third parties verify that the principal was competent when the power of attorney was drafted and that the principal has not revoked it. Basically, that's an impossible task, and raises the possibility that banks and other third parties will no longer honor powers of attorneys.

There is an old adage in the legal community that "bad facts make bad law." This may be the case in Vine. In a nutshell, Teresa Vine had been a long-time employee of the Commonwealth. She was badly hurt in a car crash, then suffered a stroke. After the stroke, her husband presented a power of attorney to the State Employee Retirement System, and based on the power of attorney, he withdrew her total accumulated deductions that she paid, and made other elections regarding how her remaining money was to be paid out. Subsequently, while Mrs. Vine remained a paraplegic, she regained her mental capacities. Her husband divorced her, and that is when she discovered what he had done. She had no memory of executing the power of attorney in favor of her husband, which was signed with an "x" and allegedly completed shortly after Mrs. Vine's accident. The Supreme Court ruled that Mrs. Vine could not have validly executed the power of attorney because of her injuries, and therefore the document was invalid. It ruled that the State Employees Retirement System should not have relied on the document and distributed the money to Mrs. Vine's then-husband.
Google implies that the above PA Supreme Court decision caused enough problems that the PA legislature has been acting to try to improve the situation. But I am not a lawyer, not in Pennsylvania, and don't know how successful the legislative changes have actually been. Google says that the PA legislature tried to fix the problem in 2014. (PA law apparently did not adhere to the Uniform Power of Attorney Act prior to that.) But then the legislature tried again in 2016, so it seems that maybe the 2014 changes still weren't enough. I don't know what happened after that. I'm also not a lawyer and don't know what happened with further case law after the 2010 Vine v Commonweath decision. I also don't know if there are other similar court decisions out there in other states that are making various financial institutions so jumpy about general DPOA documents.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by exodusing »

bsteiner wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:36 pm
Excelsior! wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:02 pm A rather impressive inventory of things that do not work with Vanguard appears in “PETER L. KNOX, as attorney-in-fact for Margaret A. Knox under power of attorney, Plaintiff, v. THE VANGUARD GROUP, INC.; VANGUARD FIDUCIARY TRUST COMPANY; and VANGUARD MARKETING CORPORATION, Defendants.” Knox v. Vanguard Grp., Inc., Civil Action No. 15-13411-FDS, (D. Mass. Jan. 5, 2018)" which may be seen here: https://casetext.com/case/knox-v-vanguard-grp-inc-1
Once I got to the part where it said that the son signed his mother's name to a form naming himself as beneficiary, I had a hunch as to how the decision would go.
Reading the rest of the decision would heavily reinforce your view of the son.
RationalWalk
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by RationalWalk »

In any event, as the OP states, he/she was specifically told by a Vanguard support individual in a phone call that Vanguard would not accept an attorney-prepared POA - which contradicts whatever else Vanguard has stated elsewhere. In my way of thinking, this doesn't bode well for someone who choses to submit an attorney-drafted DPOA to Vanguard, assuming that it is reasonably possible to figure out the destination of such submission at all. If it were me, I'd prefer to deal with Vanguard in the rearview mirror regarding this entire matter. You don't want to end up when the time comes being in the position of your POA finding out that their authority to manage your affairs for you is nil.
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Careful
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Careful »

This has been an enlightening thread. I've read it all. I have been having a lot of problems with my durable power of attorney for my parents. They have a financial advisor and Interactive Brokers. The advisor is a fiduciary and I believe has power of attorney (since he cuts checks for RMDs etc).

One problem is that they have never logged in and no longer have access to the email address they used to use when they got the account (ie from their former internet provider like Comcast, Verizon etc). So they have no password resets etc.

But another problem is that Interactive Brokers won't accept the POA unless my parents are incapacitated. (I'm POA for my dad and #2 after my dad for my mom on her POA.) I haven't seen Interactive Brokers mentioned on this thread.

So I don't know how to get access to the account, which is necessary as they are in 'mild cognitive decline' and things could go south at any time.

I have been working with the financial advisor's admin people to try to gain online access to my parents' IB account (even 'as them') but so far our efforts have been fruitless and I've been at it since February.

I'm thinking the only way out of this is for my father/ parents to instruct their financial advisor that they want to transfer their assets to Fidelity or Schwab. I don't have assets at either; I do have Vanguard but it sounds like that is not the way to go (and I realize is a potential problem for me later but right now my parents' situation is my urgent problem).

Another piece to this puzzle is that I'd really like to get their assets into a revocable living trust (they have the paperwork but haven't funded it). I am the trustee, with a sibling as a contingent trustee (for this trust with no money in it).

What would you all advise in this case. Are these the right steps:

1. Talk to parents and tell them we still haven't been able to get me access to their accoutns to help them manage (they want this and trust me 110%).
2. Have parents talk to advisor and tell them they want to transfer assets to Fidelity (or Schwab).
3. Open a (regular?) or RLT-titled account for them at Fidelity or Schwab.
4. Don't even need to turn in POA because I'll be the trustee.
5. Manage the account for them as their trustee for their needs.

Can I do this all online? I have access to Fidelity and Schwab offices. I live hundreds of miles from them and they don't venture far. However, I'll be visiting in a few weeks. Getting to a Fidelity or Schwab office with them would be possible but a major hassle and logistical issue.

Thank you for your advice!
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Did Interactive Brokers provide a clear explanation why they won't accept a valid Durable POA? IOW, which paragraph of your POA documentation did they reject? That might provide a clue.

Regarding the ability to transfer things online via POA, the answer is No. When I transferred my Mom's portfolio from Vanguard to Fidelity, it was all done through a local Fidelity Advisor. POAs need special handling and can't be done online by the client.

The first step I did is submit my POA to the Fidelity advisor (via my secure message online account).* Fidelity reviewed, then rejected my POA. Why? Because I didn't include the physician statements needed to change my "Standy" POA to "Durable" POA. After I sent them the physician statements, Fidelity accepted my POA and I was good to go.

The above is one example of the underlying complexities of a POA and is why you need humans to handle the processing.

I followed the advisor's instructions closely. The transfer happened within a day or so after I uploaded the paperwork to them. I then created an online account as my Mom. Fidelity knows it's me as POA.

* I'm handling all the investments myself, but Fidelity has me assigned to a rep. They don't care if they're managing your account or not. They'll answer whatever questions you may have.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by bsteiner »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:01 pm ...
The first step I did is submit my POA to the Fidelity advisor (via my secure message online account).* Fidelity reviewed, then rejected my POA. Why? Because I didn't include the physician statements needed to change my "Standy" POA to "Durable" POA. After I sent them the physician statements, Fidelity accepted my POA and I was good to go. ...
That's because you probably had a springing power of attorney (one that only takes effect upon the happening of a condition, such as the Jets winning the Super Bowl, or three doctors at least one of whom is left handed and one of whom is right handed certifying that the principal is no longer able to handle his/her affairs) rather than one that's effective immediately.

To avoid the delay in satisfying the condition, most powers of attorney are effective immediately. The exceptions are generally where the agent isn't an immediate family member, or where the agent is a young adult and the principal doesn't want the agent to be able to act unless it's necessary.

Why was yours a springing power rather than one effective immediately?

Note that in Florida you can no longer have a springing power, though ones that were signed before the law changed are still valid.
000
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by 000 »

bsteiner wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:49 pm Note that in Florida you can no longer have a springing power, though ones that were signed before the law changed are still valid.
Do you know why they changed the FL law as such?
Careful
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Careful »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:01 pm Did Interactive Brokers provide a clear explanation why they won't accept a valid Durable POA? IOW, which paragraph of your POA documentation did they reject? That might provide a clue.

Regarding the ability to transfer things online via POA, the answer is No. When I transferred my Mom's portfolio from Vanguard to Fidelity, it was all done through a local Fidelity Advisor. POAs need special handling and can't be done online by the client.

The first step I did is submit my POA to the Fidelity advisor (via my secure message online account).* Fidelity reviewed, then rejected my POA. Why? Because I didn't include the physician statements needed to change my "Standy" POA to "Durable" POA. After I sent them the physician statements, Fidelity accepted my POA and I was good to go.

The above is one example of the underlying complexities of a POA and is why you need humans to handle the processing.

I followed the advisor's instructions closely. The transfer happened within a day or so after I uploaded the paperwork to them. I then created an online account as my Mom. Fidelity knows it's me as POA.

* I'm handling all the investments myself, but Fidelity has me assigned to a rep. They don't care if they're managing your account or not. They'll answer whatever questions you may have.
No, Interactive Brokers hasn’t told me anything. They won’t deal with me. The advisor says it is because my father is not incapacitated and asked whether we could get a doctor to say my dad is incapacitated. However it is a durable power of attorney, lawyer-executed and is 20 pages long. After reading the NYT article I’m thinking maybe I get the lawyer to send IB a demand letter.

Honestly I don’t need the financial advisor either but I cannot get rid of them because they’re the only ones who can access the account.

I can definitely go to a Schwab or Fidelity office. I could start the account with some money from their bank accounts if that is easier and then be assigned a Schwab or Fidelity rep. I have access to their bank accounts as POA but that involved in person visits and signature cards etc. should I start like that?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by HomeStretch »

Careful wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 am No, Interactive Brokers hasn’t told me anything. …
Two options are:
1) if your parents are in a state that requires IB to accept their POA, your attorney can contact their legal dept. to put pressure on them to do so.
2) move the POA accounts to another brokerage that is more POA-friendly.

I chose #2 after having several issues with my parents’ long-time Vanguard POA accounts. I moved the accounts to Fidelity. I completed the new accounts’ set up online (as instructed by the local office), dropped off the POA copy/form at a local office (I believe my signature needed to be notarized) and Fidelity handled the transfers. I have heard that Schwab is similarly POA friendly.

It’s not uncommon for financial institutions to put limits on the POA agent’s powers. For example, at Fidelity I had to call to transfer funds in the POA accounts if I tried to transfer funds using my online account. The local office advised me to use my (incapacitated) parents’ accounts when making such transactions. Overall Fidelity was much more reasonable to deal with than Vanguard and BoA.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Careful wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 am I can definitely go to a Schwab or Fidelity office. I could start the account with some money from their bank accounts if that is easier and then be assigned a Schwab or Fidelity rep. I have access to their bank accounts as POA but that involved in person visits and signature cards etc. should I start like that?
You can't do anything at all until the account is established under a POA. Fidelity is different than Vanguard in that you'll have a local advisor assigned regardless if they manage your money or not. So, start by going to the Fidelity office with a copy of your POA and the latest Vanguard investment statements. You'll need both to get things started. (I'm only listing Fidelity here because that's who I'm doing business with.)

Your parent's financial advisor is acting as a fiduciary. You don't need his/her permission for anything you do under your POA - which includes moving funds out of Vanguard. Fidelity / Schwab will pull the funds from their side.

The type of account (bank or investment) doesn't matter. Transferring "some" bank account money instead of their investments first sounds harder than simply transferring their Vanguard accounts completely as "in-kind".

Also, bank account money is cash. Fidelity has cash-like investments (money markets), but they're not a bank.

When I moved my funds from Ameriprise to Vanguard (2008), it took the advisor 2 weeks to discover that my Ameriprise balance was 0.00. That's why I left and is when I found this forum. He wasn't paying attention to my account.
bsteiner wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:49 pm That's because you probably had a springing power of attorney (one that only takes effect upon the happening of a condition, such as the Jets winning the Super Bowl, or three doctors at least one of whom is left handed and one of whom is right handed certifying that the principal is no longer able to handle his/her affairs) rather than one that's effective immediately.

To avoid the delay in satisfying the condition, most powers of attorney are effective immediately. The exceptions are generally where the agent isn't an immediate family member, or where the agent is a young adult and the principal doesn't want the agent to be able to act unless it's necessary.

Why was yours a springing power rather than one effective immediately?

Note that in Florida you can no longer have a springing power, though ones that were signed before the law changed are still valid.
The word "springing" wasn't in the document, but the attorney who setup the Standby POA said that he always wants two doctors to provide statements. If someone intended to commit fraud, it would be more difficult to convince two doctors than one that the parent was incompetent.

I also have a durable POA document, but that needed a legal process to invoke. It was easier to get the physician statements, so I used the Standby version instead.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by bsteiner »

000 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:51 am
bsteiner wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:49 pm Note that in Florida you can no longer have a springing power, though ones that were signed before the law changed are still valid.
Do you know why they changed the FL law as such?
I don’t know. A friend was in the Florida House until she was term limited so I can ask her. My guess is that they concluded that there were more problems with agents trying to show that the contingency had occurred (some lawyers made powers springing where it didn’t make sense, and some lawyers drafted powers requiring more than one doctor) as in Lady Geek’s case than there were with agents misbehaving with regular powers where the principal was competent.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by Careful »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am
Careful wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:29 am I can definitely go to a Schwab or Fidelity office. I could start the account with some money from their bank accounts if that is easier and then be assigned a Schwab or Fidelity rep. I have access to their bank accounts as POA but that involved in person visits and signature cards etc. should I start like that?
You can't do anything at all until the account is established under a POA. Fidelity is different than Vanguard in that you'll have a local advisor assigned regardless if they manage your money or not. So, start by going to the Fidelity office with a copy of your POA and the latest Vanguard investment statements. You'll need both to get things started. (I'm only listing Fidelity here because that's who I'm doing business with.)

Your parent's financial advisor is acting as a fiduciary. You don't need his/her permission for anything you do under your POA - which includes moving funds out of Vanguard. Fidelity / Schwab will pull the funds from their side.

The type of account (bank or investment) doesn't matter. Transferring "some" bank account money instead of their investments first sounds harder than simply transferring their Vanguard accounts completely as "in-kind".

Also, bank account money is cash. Fidelity has cash-like investments (money markets), but they're not a bank.

When I moved my funds from Ameriprise to Vanguard (2008), it took the advisor 2 weeks to discover that my Ameriprise balance was 0.00. That's why I left and is when I found this forum. He wasn't paying attention to my account.
bsteiner wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:49 pm That's because you probably had a springing power of attorney (one that only takes effect upon the happening of a condition, such as the Jets winning the Super Bowl, or three doctors at least one of whom is left handed and one of whom is right handed certifying that the principal is no longer able to handle his/her affairs) rather than one that's
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

I thought it might be easier if they/ their trust already had an account at Fidelity or Schwab, since it’s so hard to get Interactive Brokers to accept the POA, or even for my parents to have online access to their own accounts, since IB does not accept that they are themselves.

Perhaps the easiest thing would be for my dad to call his advisor and tell the advisor he wants to put his money with Fidelity or Schwab???? Dad can do that if I ask him to.
The advisor would send a check to my parents’ home presumably. I don’t live near them.
If they had a regular or trust account at Fidelity or Schwab, presumably it could be wired? It’s six figures so we hesitate to trust the mail.

Don’t I need a “receiving account” at Fidelity or Schwab? Since I am not a customer at either, I thought I should get some money in their first to be a legit customer, due to Know Your Customer laws. I realize that Fidelity is not a bank, but that does not matter to me.

Is this the easiest course of action since IB won’t accept the POA nor can my parents get direct access to IB customer, due to the problems I mentioned with no valid email with IB etc.

Let me know what you think!
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

Careful wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:26 am Don’t I need a “receiving account” at Fidelity or Schwab? Since I am not a customer at either, I thought I should get some money in their first to be a legit customer, due to Know Your Customer laws. I realize that Fidelity is not a bank, but that does not matter to me.
You're missing a basic point - You become a customer by creating the POA account. Accounts don't need money in them to be active. Starting with a 0.00 balance is fine.

The POA account will "receive" the funds and you'll have full control when you setup an online account. You also have full control as POA via phone or in-person office visits, but I find the online account easiest.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by rustwood »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:18 am Fidelity is different than Vanguard in that you'll have a local advisor assigned regardless if they manage your money or not. So, start by going to the Fidelity office with a copy of your POA and the latest Vanguard investment statements. You'll need both to get things started. (I'm only listing Fidelity here because that's who I'm doing business with.)
I just went through this process last week at a local Fidelity office. We had an appointment there for myself and my relative, brought their statements from other institutions with us, but no POA/FPOA (which I have and it is active/immediate, not springing). Fidelity didn't seem to care about the POA document as long as my relative was willing to sign to authorize me to have full authority on the account. The whole process was very easy. I now have a log-in which, when the transfer is complete, is supposed to allow me to view and transact on behalf of my relative. Could I have a different/lesser level of access than what one might get by presenting a POA?
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by LadyGeek »

rustwood wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 am I now have a log-in which, when the transfer is complete, is supposed to allow me to view and transact on behalf of my relative. Could I have a different/lesser level of access than what one might get by presenting a POA?
Fidelity accounts have different levels of access, much like Vanguard. From my own Fidelity login, I have view access to a family member's account (managed by a Fidelity advisor) and full access to my Mom's account.

However, that's not the same thing as having direct login access as Mom. You simply can't do everything online as POA access vs. logging in as that person directly. You'll have full authority, but will need to call them instead. I do all activity for my Mom with her login account. That includes Quicken access.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by miket29 »

Careful wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:26 am Perhaps the easiest thing would be for my dad to call his advisor and tell the advisor he wants to put his money with Fidelity or Schwab???? Dad can do that if I ask him to.
The advisor would send a check to my parents’ home presumably. I don’t live near them.
If they had a regular or trust account at Fidelity or Schwab, presumably it could be wired? It’s six figures so we hesitate to trust the mail.
Are they just holding cash in the current account? If not and they have investments then selling everything and having a check sent means they may end up with capital gains that they'd owe tax on. Instead you could have the assets transferred in-kind if they are stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and ETFs that Fidelity or Schwab can accept. There is no tax due when transfers are done in-kind since no sale occurs.
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Re: Finding out your Power of Attorney is useless

Post by 000 »

bsteiner wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:20 am I don’t know. A friend was in the Florida House until she was term limited so I can ask her. My guess is that they concluded that there were more problems with agents trying to show that the contingency had occurred (some lawyers made powers springing where it didn’t make sense, and some lawyers drafted powers requiring more than one doctor) as in Lady Geek’s case than there were with agents misbehaving with regular powers where the principal was competent.
Thanks. You can ask if you want, but please don't feel burdened to do so. I was wondering if there was a high volume of litigation concerning contingency and competency questions specific to Florida for some reason, but didn't (quickly) find a lot of coverage online.
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