Debating an electric zero turn mower

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homebuyer6426
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by homebuyer6426 »

onourway wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:33 am
homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
talzara wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm Electric lawnmowers have practically zero emissions compared to gasoline-powered lawnmowers. It's not exactly zero, but some of the emissions are 0% if you round to whole percentages. Some things, like particulates, are reduced to basis points.
I don't think you got my meaning. The electricity needed to charge the batteries generally comes from fossil fuels. So if your local power plant is especially dirty, you could actually be creating more pollution using an electric motor compared to gas.
Not true, but unfortunately getting into the reasons why will likely get this thread locked.

But in short, power plants - even dirty ones (at least here in the USA) run on fossil fuels are much more strictly regulated for emissions than home lawn equipment, and it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time.
Most likely you are correct. I just wanted the math to be done. I think a lot of assumptions get made about this stuff and I like to see the work. Cheers.
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dknightd
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by dknightd »

iamlucky13 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:27 am I have no idea if they do this, but Ego should make their charger programmable to charge at a specific time, and have a winter storage mode.
The Ego chargers have no timer. You could connect them to a smart outlet I suppose.
The batteries themselves will apparently discharge to 30% after 30 days of non-use.

"This battery pack is equipped with an advanced self-maintenance function
to extend the battery life. Depending on the battery charge, it will automatically perform
a self-discharge operation after one month of storage. After this self-maintenance, the
battery pack will enter sleep mode and maintain 30% of its charge capacity. If stored
for a month or longer, fully recharge the battery before the next use"

I have several EGO batteries. One is 5 years old now. I charge them after use (so they are ready to go). It might be better to wait, then charge them later, but I've never bothered. You do have to charge them again if they have been unused all winter. So it seems to work.
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corn18
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

iamlucky13 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:27 am I see now the update that you've gone ahead and ordered the Ego mower.

From what I've heard and your description of your property, I don't think you'll have any regrets. I do think the Ryobi could also be satisfactory, but although the Ryobi is cheaper and should be able to handle a bigger property, you don't need that much capacity, and I suspect the Ego will actually perform more consistently from the start of your mow to the end.
corn18 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:08 pm
iamlucky13 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:17 pm ....
The current Ryobi's all seem to use lead acid batteries rather than lithium ion's.
....
Very good analysis. Spot on.

I hope in 5-10 years when I need new batteries, there are more options.

I just converted my RV over to LiFePO4. A good 2.4 kWh LiFePO4 battery will run $1,000. But that's @ 12V (4S). To DIY a 52V 2.4 kWh LiFePO4 battery (14S) would be about $1400 for the cells. Plus a BMS for $250. Not sure what cells are in the EGO batteries, but their prices aren't completely outrageous.

FLA sucks. If you go more than 50% discharge, their life starts disappearing fast. Maybe 750 cycles if you go to 80% depth of discharge (DOD). And that's with perfect care. And they take a lot longer to recharge.

Lithium doesn't mind 90% DOD and they can handle a lot more charging current. Good cells will do 5000 cycles. High temp kills them. Low temp discharge is ok, but you can't charge them below freezing.
We're talking about sealed lead acid gel batteries in this case not flooded batteries, but more importantly, the difference isn't quite as big as you suggest. Below is an example cycle life curve for a good brand of deep cycle, sealed lead acid batteries. As you can see, they rate to 500 cycles of 80% discharge, but over 1,000 cycles of 50% discharge. A budget brand might be more like 250-300 cycles.

https://www.trojanbattery.com/deep-cycle-gel-2/

For comparison, here is a common lithium ion cell for tool batteries and other high drain applications. Lithium ion battery cycle lives are typically given at 100% discharge, but because the cycle life curve is non-linear, although these cells achieve 300 cycles to 100% discharge, even the relatively small decrease in use to 80% discharge may double that to 600 cycles (unfortunately, not curve for depth of discharge is given). The advantage in total lifetime energy stored grows significantly with even shallower depth of discharge, so it's in probably the 20-30% depth of discharge range where 5000+ cycles starts to be feasible.

https://www.orbtronic.com/content/panas ... 650nsx.pdf

Lithium iron phosphate do significantly better at cycle life than either lithium ion or lead acid, but aren't as commonly used for vehicle power due to lower energy density and typically lower power output than lithium ion, while still being more expensive than lead acid. They should be great in your RV.

Practically speaking in either mower case, however, cycles alone are not going to determine the useful life for most users. Your yard is well under half the size either mower claims to be able to handle. Mowing weekly 8 months out of the year is only about 350 cycles per decade, so for either battery you should expect calendar aging to be at least as much of a factor in life expectancy. I've seen Ego commentary consistent with my suggestion of a 5-10 year life expectancy, and I've seen the same for lead acid golf cart batteries.

By the way of a passing thought - I have no idea if they do this, but Ego should make their charger programmable to charge at a specific time, and have a winter storage mode. If it were me, I'd want the battery to charge to 30-50% when first plugged in, so there is some ready power, and then charge to 100% Friday night so I can mow over the weekend. Then it should keep the batteries at 30-50% for the off season. The lab data I've seen suggests this could approximately double calendar life compared to keeping them at 100% all the time.

If that feature doesn't exist, the easy alternative is to make it a habit to not plug in the mower until Friday afternoon.

I don't worry about managing my drill batteries closely like this, but for the price of those Ego batteries, I definitely would.
Thanks for the great info! I learned something. Didn't know how much cheaper an 18650 Li battery is vs. LiFePO4. I watched a video on what's inside the Ego batteries and yup, they are way over priced from Ego. Looks like a simple DIY to replace the cells myself for a LOT less money.
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dknightd
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by dknightd »

corn18 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:14 am

Thanks for the great info! I learned something. Didn't know how much cheaper an 18650 Li battery is vs. LiFePO4. I watched a video on what's inside the Ego batteries and yup, they are way over priced from Ego. Looks like a simple DIY to replace the cells myself for a LOT less money.
I'm surprised EGO does not offer this service. Perhaps they will after more of their batteries have been out in the field for a longer time. It could also be a business opportunity for somebody.
I agree, it does look like a reasonable DIY project. That is my plan when the time comes.

Edit: enjoy your new toy/tool :)
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jharkin
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by jharkin »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:45 am
onourway wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:33 am
homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
talzara wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm Electric lawnmowers have practically zero emissions compared to gasoline-powered lawnmowers. It's not exactly zero, but some of the emissions are 0% if you round to whole percentages. Some things, like particulates, are reduced to basis points.
I don't think you got my meaning. The electricity needed to charge the batteries generally comes from fossil fuels. So if your local power plant is especially dirty, you could actually be creating more pollution using an electric motor compared to gas.
Not true, but unfortunately getting into the reasons why will likely get this thread locked.

But in short, power plants - even dirty ones (at least here in the USA) run on fossil fuels are much more strictly regulated for emissions than home lawn equipment, and it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time.
Most likely you are correct. I just wanted the math to be done. I think a lot of assumptions get made about this stuff and I like to see the work. Cheers.
There is NO emission technology right now that can remove the CO2 from the exhaust. They can scrub soot, particulates and use catalysts to reduce NOx and CO... but CO2 is CO2. If you local power plant is coal or gas then your electricity is contributing CO2 regardless of emmisions regulations.

Now the end result of that is nuanced, as modern gas turbine electric generation plants can be as much as 40-60% thermally efficient, whereas the gasoline engine in the lawn tractor is only around 20% efficient (and that number is made even worse due to idling losses) - so the electric option is probably contributing less co2 per acre mowed, but there are a lot of moving parts to account for (manufacturing costs, electric transmission losses, charging losses, battery replacement, etc) making the full lifecycle environmental cost comparison non trivial.
jpelder
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by jpelder »

livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:32 am Within a few years I think cordless electric mowers will have better algorithms and be completely robotic so that you don't have to baby sit them while they mow your lawn. I would not buy a riding mower at the present time.
That exists now, although they aren't very good. Sort of a mowing "Roomba". They cost a small fortune, though https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-robot-lawn-mowers

Although based on how often my robotic vacuum gets stuck, I'll stick to the human-guided one for now...
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by jharkin »

corn18 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:14 am
iamlucky13 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:27 am I see now the update that you've gone ahead and ordered the Ego mower.

From what I've heard and your description of your property, I don't think you'll have any regrets. I do think the Ryobi could also be satisfactory, but although the Ryobi is cheaper and should be able to handle a bigger property, you don't need that much capacity, and I suspect the Ego will actually perform more consistently from the start of your mow to the end.
corn18 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:08 pm
iamlucky13 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 9:17 pm ....
The current Ryobi's all seem to use lead acid batteries rather than lithium ion's.
....
Very good analysis. Spot on.

I hope in 5-10 years when I need new batteries, there are more options.

I just converted my RV over to LiFePO4. A good 2.4 kWh LiFePO4 battery will run $1,000. But that's @ 12V (4S). To DIY a 52V 2.4 kWh LiFePO4 battery (14S) would be about $1400 for the cells. Plus a BMS for $250. Not sure what cells are in the EGO batteries, but their prices aren't completely outrageous.

FLA sucks. If you go more than 50% discharge, their life starts disappearing fast. Maybe 750 cycles if you go to 80% depth of discharge (DOD). And that's with perfect care. And they take a lot longer to recharge.

Lithium doesn't mind 90% DOD and they can handle a lot more charging current. Good cells will do 5000 cycles. High temp kills them. Low temp discharge is ok, but you can't charge them below freezing.
We're talking about sealed lead acid gel batteries in this case not flooded batteries, but more importantly, the difference isn't quite as big as you suggest. Below is an example cycle life curve for a good brand of deep cycle, sealed lead acid batteries. As you can see, they rate to 500 cycles of 80% discharge, but over 1,000 cycles of 50% discharge. A budget brand might be more like 250-300 cycles.

https://www.trojanbattery.com/deep-cycle-gel-2/

For comparison, here is a common lithium ion cell for tool batteries and other high drain applications. Lithium ion battery cycle lives are typically given at 100% discharge, but because the cycle life curve is non-linear, although these cells achieve 300 cycles to 100% discharge, even the relatively small decrease in use to 80% discharge may double that to 600 cycles (unfortunately, not curve for depth of discharge is given). The advantage in total lifetime energy stored grows significantly with even shallower depth of discharge, so it's in probably the 20-30% depth of discharge range where 5000+ cycles starts to be feasible.

https://www.orbtronic.com/content/panas ... 650nsx.pdf

Lithium iron phosphate do significantly better at cycle life than either lithium ion or lead acid, but aren't as commonly used for vehicle power due to lower energy density and typically lower power output than lithium ion, while still being more expensive than lead acid. They should be great in your RV.

Practically speaking in either mower case, however, cycles alone are not going to determine the useful life for most users. Your yard is well under half the size either mower claims to be able to handle. Mowing weekly 8 months out of the year is only about 350 cycles per decade, so for either battery you should expect calendar aging to be at least as much of a factor in life expectancy. I've seen Ego commentary consistent with my suggestion of a 5-10 year life expectancy, and I've seen the same for lead acid golf cart batteries.

By the way of a passing thought - I have no idea if they do this, but Ego should make their charger programmable to charge at a specific time, and have a winter storage mode. If it were me, I'd want the battery to charge to 30-50% when first plugged in, so there is some ready power, and then charge to 100% Friday night so I can mow over the weekend. Then it should keep the batteries at 30-50% for the off season. The lab data I've seen suggests this could approximately double calendar life compared to keeping them at 100% all the time.

If that feature doesn't exist, the easy alternative is to make it a habit to not plug in the mower until Friday afternoon.

I don't worry about managing my drill batteries closely like this, but for the price of those Ego batteries, I definitely would.
Thanks for the great info! I learned something. Didn't know how much cheaper an 18650 Li battery is vs. LiFePO4. I watched a video on what's inside the Ego batteries and yup, they are way over priced from Ego. Looks like a simple DIY to replace the cells myself for a LOT less money.

A few confusions here.

First - there are multiple types of "sealed" lead acid. True gell cell is very rare and only used for specialized applications. It can only tolerate very low charge currents. Most sealed batteries you see are sealed flooded low maintenance (car starting batteries) or Absorbed glass matt (AGM). AGM is very common - this is what Optima batteries are, and most small lead acid batteries used in computer UPS, emergency lighting, etc. AGM is in almost every way superior to regular flooded batties - higher curernt handling, longer life, better cold weather perfomrance, etc - its just more expensive.


As to lithium. Sooner or later Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) is going to catch on and become standard in anything where weight is not critical (i.e. everything but mobile devices and aviation). LFP has multiple, significant benefits over traditional Lithium Ion (lithium cobalt oxide LiCO):
- The current handling is actually the same as good as "lithium ion"
- They are far safer. You can puncture or dead short and all they do is heat up and smoke. No fire/explosion risk
- They handle deep cold much better. NASA has tested them to well below zero for space program applications.
- They can be discharged to near zero with no damage. Taking LiIon below 20% charge significantly reduces lifespan.
- Cycle life is significant. LiIion in consumer devices last maybe 500 charges. In electric vehicles they extend that to a few thousand by using only hte middle 60% of hte capacity curve and careful thermal management. Large format LFP has lifespans measures in the 10s of thousand of cycles and decades of shelf life - and that is with no careful handling.

Also, the weight difference and cost gap has been continually closing. I homebrewed a 12v pack with 90Ah cells ("officialy" 13.2v, 1.2kWh) for $400 (+$200 BMS) ordering direct from China a couple years ago. To get the same usable capacity in AGM you need at least 150Ah and thats going to cost $200-300 up front, and need to be replaced 3-4 times before the LFP wears out. On a lifecycle basis the LFP is already cheaper.

Big manufacturers are probably paying less than that wholesale. The cost/Ah goes down as cell size goes up.


More reading to learn about battery technology:

Basics of deep cycle lead acid batteries: https://www.solar-electric.com/learning ... -faq.html/
Everything you ever wanted to know about LFP: https://nordkyndesign.com/category/mari ... y-systems/
Cheap LFP cells for DIYers: https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/raw-l ... -page.html
Last edited by jharkin on Wed May 18, 2022 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by livesoft »

jpelder wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 amThat exists now, although they aren't very good. Sort of a mowing "Roomba". They cost a small fortune, though https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-robot-lawn-mowers

Although based on how often my robotic vacuum gets stuck, I'll stick to the human-guided one for now...
Robotic mowers could be a lot different than roombas. For one thing, one could put sensors/indicators in the ground to help guide the mower. There are already "invisible fence" wires for dogs and buried sprinkler heads in many lawns, so something specialized for a lawn mower would be trivial compared to "lane keep assist" and "collision avoidance" in cars. And one could take a tip from yard crews: One person often uses a string trimmer to do the periphery and a 2nd person runs the mower close to the periphery. So a potential solution would be to mow manually around the edges, then turn the mower into robot mode*. That is, until technology got better or the mower was trained.

*Or vice versa: Mow robotically first, then touch up manually around the edges.
Last edited by livesoft on Wed May 18, 2022 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jharkin
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by jharkin »

livesoft wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:06 am
jpelder wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 amThat exists now, although they aren't very good. Sort of a mowing "Roomba". They cost a small fortune, though https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-robot-lawn-mowers

Although based on how often my robotic vacuum gets stuck, I'll stick to the human-guided one for now...
Robotic mowers could be a lot different than roombas. For one thing, one could put sensors/indicators in the ground to help guide the mower. There are already "invisible fence" wires for dogs and buried sprinkler heads in many lawns, so something specialized for a lawn mower would be trivial compared to "lane keep assist" and "collision avoidance" in cars.
My friend has a robotic mower (a Huquavarna) ... this is exactly how it works. They had to bury a cable around the lawn perimeter similar to that used for invisible dog fence, and the mower drives around finding the perimeter.

Good for small yards and regular shapes (he has 1/4 acre i think). I'm not sure how it would handle large irregular lots.


The way it mows is very different from what we are used to. It goes around almost daily and constantly cuts a very small amount off, so the lawn basically always looks fresh cut.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

corn18 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:18 am I have made the switch to all Ego yard tools: 21" self-propelled lawn mower, edger, trimmer, blower, chain saw and self-propelled snow blower.
Brianmcg321 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm I wouldn’t want an electric rider unless Tesla started making one. I have an Ego blower and trimmer and I love them. But one of the battery packs has degraded significantly. I’ve owned the blower for five years. Those batteries are extremely expensive to replace. I can only imagine how many batteries you might go through with a riding lawn mower.
I hope I don't derail this thread, but I bought the Ego blower and trimmer last year, and I absolutely loathe the trimmer. I have never had a trimmer where I have to change the string so often. Changing the string is also so cumbersome. It drives me insane.

Am I doing something wrong?
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corn18
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:28 am
corn18 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:18 am I have made the switch to all Ego yard tools: 21" self-propelled lawn mower, edger, trimmer, blower, chain saw and self-propelled snow blower.
Brianmcg321 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm I wouldn’t want an electric rider unless Tesla started making one. I have an Ego blower and trimmer and I love them. But one of the battery packs has degraded significantly. I’ve owned the blower for five years. Those batteries are extremely expensive to replace. I can only imagine how many batteries you might go through with a riding lawn mower.
I hope I don't derail this thread, but I bought the Ego blower and trimmer last year, and I absolutely loathe the trimmer. I have never had a trimmer where I have to change the string so often. Changing the string is also so cumbersome. It drives me insane.

Am I doing something wrong?
I don't think you are doing anything wrong. The string that came with my Ego string trimmer lasted a full season. Then I replaced it with some sort of green stuff and that crap doesn't last at all. I need to find something tougher.
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dknightd
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by dknightd »

Some random thoughts.

I really like the idea of robotic lawn mowing. I'm not ready for it yet. But perhaps in a few years.

Emissions are very complicated. As others have suggested. You have to look at the whole supply chain. Then the decommissioning phase. I'm 90% sure most emissions from a battery mower are less than a gas mower. But I can not prove it. I'm 90% sure - prove me wrong. It does perhaps depend on which types of emissions you are considering. It is possible that making solar cells, and batteries, make emissions we have not yet discovered are bad. Unless shown otherwise I'm going to assume that solar, or wind, generated energy is less damaging than fossil fuel generated energy. I'm also going to assume that big electric power plants are more efficient, and produce less pollution, than a single cylinder gas lawn mower engine.

Disclaimer. 90% of my electric comes from a community solar farm. I have no local storage. But I'm thinking about it.

One thing I'm 99% sure of. An electric mower makes less noise than a gas mower. If I'm going to damage my ears I'd rather doing it listening to music.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
Valuethinker
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
talzara wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm Electric lawnmowers have practically zero emissions compared to gasoline-powered lawnmowers. It's not exactly zero, but some of the emissions are 0% if you round to whole percentages. Some things, like particulates, are reduced to basis points.
I don't think you got my meaning. The electricity needed to charge the batteries generally comes from fossil fuels. So if your local power plant is especially dirty, you could actually be creating more pollution using an electric motor compared to gas.
See the other point made about power plant pollution controls.

If the electricity is generated by solar, wind, hydro electric or nuclear, it is for all intents & purposes emission free.

If the electricity is gas generated then conversion efficiency is c. 55%. Subtract 8% for Transmission & Distribution (a pretty standard rule of thumb) -- say something like 47% at the lower end.

An Internal Combustion Engine has an energy efficiency conversion of around 28% - that's in a car, I imagine a lawnmower it is less than that. We have ignored the costs of extracting, pipelining, refining & distributing that gasoline to your home. (There are costs for same for Natural Gas, but unless you happen to be in New England and using Liquified Natural Gas imported by tanker, they should be lower).

So we can see if the marginal kwhr of electricity is generated from natural gas the electric option is cleaner ignoring the effects of tighter emission controls on power plants than electric mowers.

Less than 25% US electricity is generated from coal - but that percentage will have risen with recent gas price increases (however thermal coal has also increased in price). Coal say 38% plant efficiency (there are plants in Japan & Italy that get mid 40s, but US plants don't tend to be as efficient) so 30% post T&D. So 30%.

So even in the case of 100% electricity from coal-fired power plants, it's a wash before we add in the effects of tighter emissions controls on power plants.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Wed May 18, 2022 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
dknightd
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by dknightd »

corn18 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:35 am I don't think you are doing anything wrong. The string that came with my Ego string trimmer lasted a full season. Then I replaced it with some sort of green stuff and that crap doesn't last at all. I need to find something tougher.
I used to use a plug in string trimmer. My EGO trimmer is way better. Way more power. I don't trim very often.

Apparently EGO recently came out with a model that does auto feed. No more bump to feed. I hate bump to feed. It makes bald patches. You seem to be an EGO fan. Do you know if I can replace bump and feed with the new system?

Is there an EGO forum. I assume so. But have not looked.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
homebuyer6426
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by homebuyer6426 »

The theft problem would put me off of a robotic lawnmower. I could see using it on an area enclosed by a privacy fence/wall. Having it frequently mow near a roadside seems like asking for trouble.

Valuethinker wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:44 am So even in the case of 100% electricity from coal-fired power plants, it's a wash before we add in the effects of tighter emissions controls on power plants.
Thanks for doing the math, that's helpful.
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zlandar
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by zlandar »

Bronco Billy wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:59 pm My buddy called to day and said he bought a Ryobi Zero Turn off Ebay and loves it. said he saved about $1k from Home Depot price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165479038445?h ... Swh0xhaIU1
That uses a lead-acid battery not lithium. According to this guy who bought it if you need to deep discharge the battery when you mow it will greatly shorten the battery life:

https://youtu.be/LcJH7QqEn_Y
Valuethinker
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

jharkin wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:40 am
homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:45 am
onourway wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:33 am
homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am
talzara wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:32 pm Electric lawnmowers have practically zero emissions compared to gasoline-powered lawnmowers. It's not exactly zero, but some of the emissions are 0% if you round to whole percentages. Some things, like particulates, are reduced to basis points.
I don't think you got my meaning. The electricity needed to charge the batteries generally comes from fossil fuels. So if your local power plant is especially dirty, you could actually be creating more pollution using an electric motor compared to gas.
Not true, but unfortunately getting into the reasons why will likely get this thread locked.

But in short, power plants - even dirty ones (at least here in the USA) run on fossil fuels are much more strictly regulated for emissions than home lawn equipment, and it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time.
Most likely you are correct. I just wanted the math to be done. I think a lot of assumptions get made about this stuff and I like to see the work. Cheers.
There is NO emission technology right now that can remove the CO2 from the exhaust. They can scrub soot, particulates and use catalysts to reduce NOx and CO... but CO2 is CO2. If you local power plant is coal or gas then your electricity is contributing CO2 regardless of emmisions regulations.
The killer is particulates. Literally so. Particles of PM2.5 and smaller are heavily implicated in heart disease, strokes, dementia and a host of other problems (a bit like the micro-clotting we have all been learning about in the past 2 years with the virus). They are a much worse problem in air pollution health science than was realised. For this reason, indoor cooking fires are killing over 1m people in the world a year, it has been estimated.

In 15 years time, we will find that cooking with gas has dropped out of fashion for health reasons, not just environmental ones.

Coal-fired power plants do emit PM2.5 and below particles -- it's possible to plot "death plumes" downwind of coal-fired generating stations, where certain illnesses associated with inflammation (like heart disease) have higher incidence. Gasoline powered lawn equipment brings it to your neighbourhood, without the benefit of US automotive pollution control regulations.
Now the end result of that is nuanced, as modern gas turbine electric generation plants can be as much as 40-60% thermally efficient, whereas the gasoline engine in the lawn tractor is only around 20% efficient (and that number is made even worse due to idling losses) - so the electric option is probably contributing less co2 per acre mowed, but there are a lot of moving parts to account for (manufacturing costs, electric transmission losses, charging losses, battery replacement, etc) making the full lifecycle environmental cost comparison non trivial.
As per my other post, I was assuming c 55% for Combined Cycle Gas Turbine, and 8% Transmission & Distribution losses. If the plant is just starting up or running Open Cycle only, then that would be down in the 30s.

Agree re total Life Cycle Analysis is difficult. Until recycling of lithium batteries is a given (and car manufacturers are working that because they can see the scale of future demand and their requirements) that's a particular problematic issue.

But the costs of electricity generation fuel, environmentally, will be significantly less than those of extracting, shipping, refining, distributing a barrel of oil into gasoline. That's almost certain -- even for coal. Unless your power plants run on fuel oil (which they do in New England, during a freeze-up, I understand).
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

dknightd wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:47 am
corn18 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:35 am I don't think you are doing anything wrong. The string that came with my Ego string trimmer lasted a full season. Then I replaced it with some sort of green stuff and that crap doesn't last at all. I need to find something tougher.
I used to use a plug in string trimmer. My EGO trimmer is way better. Way more power. I don't trim very often.

Apparently EGO recently came out with a model that does auto feed. No more bump to feed. I hate bump to feed. It makes bald patches. You seem to be an EGO fan. Do you know if I can replace bump and feed with the new system?

Is there an EGO forum. I assume so. But have not looked.
I would love to have the powerload head for my trimmer. I have the power head with multiple tools and they don't offer the powerload string trimmer as an option for this setup. It doesn't look like the powerhead is compatible with a non powerhead model.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by cmr79 »

I will also be interested in OP's experience as I'm also considering getting the EGO zero turn mower. I also have other EGO tools, including a snow blower which doesn't have any trouble with my driveway (125 ft plus space for six cars in front of the garage).

I use a lawn service, and the costs have gone up 30% over the last two years as they can't find enough workers. The mower would pay for itself after 1.5 years; the bigger issue I've grappled with is the opportunity cost of my own time.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by snackdog »

I have been mowing with the Ryobi 42" 100a zero turn (from Home Depot) for a year now and still love it. It is quiet, fast, powerful, clean and reliable. I don't have a lot of trees or shrubs to maneuver around, but just turning at the end of each run is effortless. I use it for a couple acres of lawn and occasionally for a couple acres of pasture, if the pasture grass is not too long. It will cut long grass but it is easier to use the tractor and brush cutter once the grass is more than 12-18" high. I leave it plugged in when not using and batteries seem strong. It will mow for a couple hours easy, which is about all I care to do at once. Battery warranty is three years and rest of mower one year, I think. Some people have had issues with the 75a batteries and needed to replace them. You can read all the reviews on the HD web site.

Ryobi is coming out with a new 80v ZTR with a joystick controller which looks fabulous in 30", 42" and 54" sizes. I may upgrade at some point.

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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by andypanda »

"it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time."

More like millions of pieces of equipment.

Then there are the environmental costs of filling the dumps/landfills with millions of old gas burning machines and having to manufacture millions of new electric replacements. And all of those lithium batteries of course.

It's a difficulty series of calculations, especially everything associated with the lithium mining and refinement.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by spickups09 »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:31 am If it's the oil changes that put you off gas, it might be worth mentioning many John Deere mowers offer an easy change oil system where you just swap a canister out. I have had a John Deere E120 since 2018 that I've been happy with.

The only electric mower I have experience with is a Ryobi push mower. The construction was cheap with many plastic parts that broke off, which soured me on the brand. Had no problem with the actual battery technology though.
Similar experience here with Ryobi. I have their electric trimmer and the plastic guard at the bottom totally broke off after less than one summer of use. I took it to a lawn equipment store that does repairs, and they said I could take the trimmer back to Home Depot and complain to see if they would give me a replacement, or I could pay that shop $85 to do the repair themselves. Since I got the trimmer as a gift and didn't have a receipt, I did the latter. We'll see how long it lasts this time.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by randomguy »

jharkin wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:09 am
livesoft wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:06 am
jpelder wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:44 amThat exists now, although they aren't very good. Sort of a mowing "Roomba". They cost a small fortune, though https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-robot-lawn-mowers

Although based on how often my robotic vacuum gets stuck, I'll stick to the human-guided one for now...
Robotic mowers could be a lot different than roombas. For one thing, one could put sensors/indicators in the ground to help guide the mower. There are already "invisible fence" wires for dogs and buried sprinkler heads in many lawns, so something specialized for a lawn mower would be trivial compared to "lane keep assist" and "collision avoidance" in cars.
My friend has a robotic mower (a Huquavarna) ... this is exactly how it works. They had to bury a cable around the lawn perimeter similar to that used for invisible dog fence, and the mower drives around finding the perimeter.

Good for small yards and regular shapes (he has 1/4 acre i think). I'm not sure how it would handle large irregular lots.


The way it mows is very different from what we are used to. It goes around almost daily and constantly cuts a very small amount off, so the lawn basically always looks fresh cut.
Yeah we have had these mowers for like 20 years now. Several companies have tried to go with a GPS/beacon approach but so far it hasn't worked out. I sort of doubt they will explode in popularity anytime soon. People just aren't up for paying for them upfront. I have often thought the business model would be to sell these to lawn service companies. They drive around with a truck and drop 20 off and then come back and pick them up. You want these expensive tools not sitting around most of the time.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by iamlucky13 »

A reminder for everyone here regarding the emissions discussion:

If you look back up the thread, corn18 stated his reasons for wanting an electric rider.

* Loves the quieter operation of electric yard tools
* Doesn't like making trips to buy gas (in part because he chooses to use ethanol free, which limits where he can buy it)
* Hopes for reduced maintenance

His stated view on the topic of emissions is only: "I guess I could mention" it.

I agree the net CO2 emissions reductions from an electric mower are dubious. Lawn equipment is a very small overall proportion of CO2 emissions anyways, but if that is not the motive for his decision to get an electric mower, it doesn't make sense to challenge the decision on the basis of emissions.

With that said, I'm not suggesting it isn't relevant, especially since a lot of people read threads like this, presumably some for whom it may be of interest.

To that end, I will emphasize what a few others have said: by far the biggest emissions benefit of electric yard equipment is those of local, short term relevance - particulates, carbon monoxide, etc. CO2 emissions might not even be a net reduction on a full life cycle basis, even in a part of the country where the electricity supply is low emissions.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

iamlucky13 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 2:30 pm A reminder for everyone here regarding the emissions discussion:

If you look back up the thread, corn18 stated his reasons for wanting an electric rider.

* Loves the quieter operation of electric yard tools
* Doesn't like making trips to buy gas (in part because he chooses to use ethanol free, which limits where he can buy it)
* Hopes for reduced maintenance

His stated view on the topic of emissions is only: "I guess I could mention" it.

I agree the net CO2 emissions reductions from an electric mower are dubious. Lawn equipment is a very small overall proportion of CO2 emissions anyways, but if that is not the motive for his decision to get an electric mower, it doesn't make sense to challenge the decision on the basis of emissions.

With that said, I'm not suggesting it isn't relevant, especially since a lot of people read threads like this, presumably some for whom it may be of interest.

To that end, I will emphasize what a few others have said: by far the biggest emissions benefit of electric yard equipment is those of local, short term relevance - particulates, carbon monoxide, etc. CO2 emissions might not even be a net reduction on a full life cycle basis, even in a part of the country where the electricity supply is low emissions.
This is from an EPA study in 2011. Seems you are right, lawn gear isn't a big chunk of the emissions pie.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files ... /banks.pdf

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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by snackdog »

Gas-powered lawn tools are notoriously dirty machines to run. California has outlawed them starting in 2024.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Lynette »

snackdog wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:16 pm Gas-powered lawn tools are notoriously dirty machines to run. California has outlawed them starting in 2024.
I love my Ego products including the mower but the batteries don't last for me. I have a small yard and discovered a light-weight Sun Joe corded electric mower. It is lightweight compared to my Ego. My lawn is quite steep andit was getting a bit too much for me. The cord is a pain but I can manage it.

I am following the advice given by my garden course to reduce the size of my lawn - good to the environment and the pollinators. Shrubs and mulch look great and I love it. My neighbor loves his lawn and does not think that women are much good at gardening. He told me sarcastically that soon I would have not lawn left. I told him he was correct and I was trying to follow the advice that I should reduce my lawn by 50%. In my backyard I have black plastic over about 1/3 of it to kill the grass. Now I have to decide which shrubs and perennials to pant. I am hoping that the lawn will be dead by the fall when the shrubs go on sale.

Always fun. Good luck.

Lynette
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by iamlucky13 »

snackdog wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:16 pm Gas-powered lawn tools are notoriously dirty machines to run. California has outlawed them starting in 2024.
I hadn't heard of this, but your post caught my attention since there's a really wide range of needs for this type of equipment. I'm not a California resident, but since California's policy are sometimes mirrored by other states, it concerned me.

Looking into it more, I'm really confused. The media reports all say gas-powered small engines will be outright banned.

The CARB documents deal with emissions, not fuel source. More specifically, they say the requirement is for "zero emissions equipment" and they define zero emissions equipment specifically as having no emissions of "criteria pollutants." Criteria pollutants is an EPA term for pollutants where it has been deemed necessary and feasible to establish an exposure criteria. It includes pollutants like particulate matter, evaporated hydrocarbons, and nitrogen oxides, but it does not include carbon dioxide.

Interestingly, the standards in the CARB proposed rule still talk about engine displacement after the 2024 and 2028 implementation dates, and have a non-zero carbon monoxide limit. Since batteries don't emit carbon monoxide, and electric motors are not rated by displacement, it appears emissions really are the focus, and higher performance equipment could still be made, but will likely costs significantly more due to very stringent emissions controls.

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/fi ... 1/appa.pdf

The legislative bill only deepens the confusion because it makes claims specifically about the adequacy of batteries for commercial use, which is false in particular for the category of generators, and I would say it is doubtful for many other commercial tools.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

andypanda wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 12:40 pm "it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time."

More like millions of pieces of equipment.

Then there are the environmental costs of filling the dumps/landfills with millions of old gas burning machines and having to manufacture millions of new electric replacements. And all of those lithium batteries of course.

It's a difficulty series of calculations, especially everything associated with the lithium mining and refinement.
Lithium batteries will become more recyclable. As the EV market grows (and plug in BEVs/ PHEVs are now 20% of new light vehicle sales in Europe & China) then the flow of waste material becomes important as a source of lithium and cobalt.

The stock of gasoline powered machinery will over time simply wear out. So that's intrinsic - that we have to replace this stuff anyways, eventually. Say an average life of 10 years (might be more) 1/10th per annum on average.

If you recall back in the 80s there was a real fear the US would drown in junked cars. There were something over 100m wrecks around, rusting.

What happened was the industry's technology for ripping up a car and extracting valuable metal just got a lot better (source: Adam Minto "Junkyard Planet"). The US "park" of wrecked vehicles shrank to a few million.

So all that gasoline powered machinery is not likely to go to waste. It will get recycled - the metal at least. If they can do cars, they can do small household machinery.

The reduction in emissions from using recycled steel, copper and aluminum v the virgin stuff is stunning - 90-99% reductions.

There is a book "Recycled Materials without the Hot Air" (part of a series including David Mackay's outstanding "Renewable Energy without the Hot Air" (which is available free as a web book) and "Drugs Policy without the Hot Air" -- all written by British academics) and if you can stand a somewhat UK-slant, it's endlessly fascinating reading (as is the Minto book, for a more popular description).
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

Lynette wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:00 pm
snackdog wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:16 pm Gas-powered lawn tools are notoriously dirty machines to run. California has outlawed them starting in 2024.
I love my Ego products including the mower but the batteries don't last for me. I have a small yard and discovered a light-weight Sun Joe corded electric mower. It is lightweight compared to my Ego. My lawn is quite steep andit was getting a bit too much for me. The cord is a pain but I can manage it.

I am following the advice given by my garden course to reduce the size of my lawn - good to the environment and the pollinators. Shrubs and mulch look great and I love it. My neighbor loves his lawn and does not think that women are much good at gardening. He told me sarcastically that soon I would have not lawn left. I told him he was correct and I was trying to follow the advice that I should reduce my lawn by 50%. In my backyard I have black plastic over about 1/3 of it to kill the grass. Now I have to decide which shrubs and perennials to pant. I am hoping that the lawn will be dead by the fall when the shrubs go on sale.

Always fun. Good luck.

Lynette
Well done, you.

The lawn is an 18th century English affectation - meant you were rich enough to have sheep and to have servants to cut it to its tabletop fineness.

Somehow that became a 20th century middle class affectation-- a sign of prosperity & stability & orderliness. When your kids are young it's nice for them to have a soft playground. But after that, it's pretty much purely decorative.

As you note, a lawn is very bad for water use, and for pollinators (not just honey bees). In a dry climate, one just does not need one.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by andypanda »

"is not likely to go to waste. It will get recycled "

Well sure. Eventually. But transporting, dismantling and recycling uses energy. The people doing the work have to travel to work and that uses energy and so on and so forth. So does manufacturing batteries, solar panels, generating stations for the grid and all of that. It cuts into the claimed and calculated savings of the so-called non-polluting electrical devices such as vehicles and yard maintenance equipment.

It may work out in the end. We will see if we live long enough.
50

Meanwhile, I have a wonderful Echo leaf blower. It's powerful and works well. But I'm not using it commercially 8 hours a day, so I'm not bothered when the battery runs down after 45 minutes. I knew that was the limit before I bought it. My Echo string trimmer uses the same battery, but again, I'm not interested in weed whacking more than about 30 minutes at a time. Life in the country, knock down the big stuff on about 2 acres and do as little edging as possible. ;)

Fwiw, from what I've read on the professional lawn care forums, many of the electric riding mowers achieve their run time by using thin (1/8") light blades that are also much narrower than the typical blade on something like my 50" Toro zero turn. The thin blades are okay - maybe - for weekly mowing of well manicured yards with few limbs, stones, ant hills, animal burrows, pine cones, and in our case you can add in an excess of black walnuts.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

andypanda wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:31 am "is not likely to go to waste. It will get recycled "

Well sure. Eventually. But transporting, dismantling and recycling uses energy. The people doing the work have to travel to work and that uses energy and so on and so forth. So does manufacturing batteries, solar panels, generating stations for the grid and all of that. It cuts into the claimed and calculated savings of the so-called non-polluting electrical devices such as vehicles and yard maintenance equipment.
It's the delta though that counts. The difference between dismantling & recycling existing (fossil fuel powered) devices and electrically powered ones-- including the various costs of travel to work, etc. It's only if the latter are significantly more difficult to recycle than the former that it starts to be a real consideration.

The good news with solar panels is that they seem to have pretty much forever lives: 25 years+. Yes efficiency declines, but I have no doubt that 25 years from now many of those panels on our roofs now will be sitting in Africa or Latin America, on someone else's roof. The Waste Hierarchy: Reuse > Repurpose > Recycle.

Batteries. Certainly lithium batteries (in Europe) can be taken back to the electronics store for recycling. I haven't probed the actual chain from there (most plastics "recycling" is anything but, for example). But if lithium is a significant part of the cost of batteries, then recycled lithium becomes a player. As a simple example of repurposing - there are at least some home batteries that use old car batteries. Cobalt really is a valuable metal - so the incentive to recycle is very great.

In the case of steel & aluminum, the energy savings on recycling are 90-99%.
It may work out in the end. We will see if we live long enough.
50
The pace of adoption of some of these technologies is dizzying. From nowhere to where we are now in 10-12 years. Thinking at wind and solar installations. Also EVs.
Meanwhile, I have a wonderful Echo leaf blower. It's powerful and works well. But I'm not using it commercially 8 hours a day, so I'm not bothered when the battery runs down after 45 minutes. I knew that was the limit before I bought it. My Echo string trimmer uses the same battery, but again, I'm not interested in weed whacking more than about 30 minutes at a time. Life in the country, knock down the big stuff on about 2 acres and do as little edging as possible. ;)


Fwiw, from what I've read on the professional lawn care forums, many of the electric riding mowers achieve their run time by using thin (1/8") light blades that are also much narrower than the typical blade on something like my 50" Toro zero turn. The thin blades are okay - maybe - for weekly mowing of well manicured yards with few limbs, stones, ant hills, animal burrows, pine cones, and in our case you can add in an excess of black walnuts.
I agree that commercial needs can be quite different.

If regulators are concerned about the air pollution issues, then you will see movement towards controlling it.

I remember when they first brought in automotive emissions controls in California. Do you remember all those old films and the "Smog days"? Where you could literally see the air? Anyways they then discovered that, once they had cleaned up the cars, gasoline pumps were a major source of air pollution - the displacement of gasoline vapor from your tank when you refilled it. So they brought in vapor-lock pumps, and I believe that's now pretty standard in North America.

These things evolve.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by iamlucky13 »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:17 am The pace of adoption of some of these technologies is dizzying. From nowhere to where we are now in 10-12 years. Thinking at wind and solar installations. Also EVs.
In a way yes, and in a way no.

EV tax credits have been in place for a dozen years in the US. We've been offering a lot of money to incentivize their adoption for a fairly significant time. The largest EV manufacturer delivered their first vehicle 16 years ago. The market share is still only at 5% of sales.

Wind tax credits have been in place for 30 years. I remember being awestruck at one of the first major wind farms in my area 20 years ago, made viable in part by recent significant increases in size and cost of the turbines. The 600 kW turbines being installed at this farm were far bigger and more economical than the 60 kW turbines at the well-known Altamont Pass wind far. In relative terms, the wind market grew by huge leaps and bounds since then. Yet that growth has only taken it to a 9% share of US electricity generation.

But the growth is continuing very strongly for certain, especially for EV's and solar. The rosier estimates for EV adoption are 50% of sales in the US in as little as a decade from now.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by protagonist »

livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 am $5500 would pay for about 5 to 10 years of lawn service for me.
+1. (more like 20 years of service for me). Add to that the electric bills, maintenance, storage, and the likelihood that the mower would still be functional 10 years from now.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by snackdog »

protagonist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:12 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 am $5500 would pay for about 5 to 10 years of lawn service for me.
+1. (more like 20 years of service for me). Add to that the electric bills, maintenance, storage, and the likelihood that the mower would still be functional 10 years from now.
Mine paid for itself in less than a year. I didn't reduce lawn service though, I just fired my landscaper who liked mowing (since I do it now) and replaced him with one who likes cleaning, trimming, pruning, planting, etc. Made a vast difference.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by andypanda »

"$5500 would pay for about 5 to 10 years of lawn service for me."

2 years and a couple of mows the 3rd year for us, assuming his rates don't increase. And that's just for a quick cut and minimal string trimming.

I bought a 50" zero turn in early 2016 and it paid for itself a few years ago, even counting the gas, oil changes, air filters and 3 new blades a year for $50/set. Plus, I can mow when it needs it, not when the calendar says it's our turn.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by andypanda »

"Do you remember all those old films and the "Smog days"? Where you could literally see the air? "

Old films? I'm so old I remember when California still had clean air.

I also remember when the river caught on fire...

"On June 22, 1969, an oil slick caught fire on the Cuyahoga River just southeast of downtown Cleveland, Ohio. The image that the "the river caught fire" motivated change to protect the environment. However, this was in fact the thirteenth recorded time that the river had caught fire since 1868."

I also participated in the first Earth Day in 1970. Some of us old folks don't need to be preached at by the newly converted. ;)
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by toomanysidehustles »

AerialWombat wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:59 pm
snackdog wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 2:42 pm
protagonist wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:12 pm
livesoft wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 am $5500 would pay for about 5 to 10 years of lawn service for me.
+1. (more like 20 years of service for me). Add to that the electric bills, maintenance, storage, and the likelihood that the mower would still be functional 10 years from now.
Mine paid for itself in less than a year. I didn't reduce lawn service though, I just fired my landscaper who liked mowing (since I do it now) and replaced him with one who likes cleaning, trimming, pruning, planting, etc. Made a vast difference.
That’s 2.5 years of lawn service for me. But if I fire my lawn guy, then I would have to do it. Hard pass.
Yikes, hard pass on the new electric technology. I just got a 48" Turf Tracer with 48 hours on it for $3700.00 and am doing my 3/4 acre lot in about 16 minutes. ALL THE POWER baby! Trimming is still the most time consuming part....

https://myc2powersports.com/Lawn-Mowers ... 2f009b14b7
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by nigel_ht »

Nestegg_User wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:23 pm
jharkin wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:48 am I have switched to a mostly electric tools (weed trimmer, hedge trimmer, blower, etc), but stil have the gas rider, gas snowblower and gas generator. Sorry I just don't see electrics keeping up for acre+ yards and 100ft driveways with a foot+ of snow... yet.

I honestly don't see the gas as such a hassle, other than having to deal with premix for the old timmer and chainsaws. I just use regular E10 pump gas, treat with stabil and toss the leftover in the car if it sits more than 6 months. Ive never had any small engine problems that where caused by the ethanol. Maintenance takes about an hour a year to change the oil and filters in both machines.
...try 750+ ft of drive to get to the road for 4 ft snow (or the 3 1/2 ft of the wet snow, when we got that), for the snowblower :shock: .... and a few acres for the rest... and definitely need the gas powered version of chain saws for the trees. The electric equipment just doesn't cut it for larger jobs.... much smaller residential areas might work.
I have 40 acres and only an electric chainsaw…only use it for fallen trees that lie across a trail…
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by nigel_ht »

Brianmcg321 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm I wouldn’t want an electric rider unless Tesla started making one. I have an Ego blower and trimmer and I love them. But one of the battery packs has degraded significantly. I’ve owned the blower for five years. Those batteries are extremely expensive to replace. I can only imagine how many batteries you might go through with a riding lawn mower.
You can try aftermarket.

9.0Ah Replacement for EGO 56V Battery https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08X6YYPHG/re ... UTF8&psc=1

I bought a power station instead…it was $999 and came with two of the 7.5Ah that was running $350 each. $250 seemed like a fair price for the thing and I needed more batteries for the blower…

But next go around I’ll try an aftermarket battery and see how that goes.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by talzara »

onourway wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:33 am But in short, power plants - even dirty ones (at least here in the USA) run on fossil fuels are much more strictly regulated for emissions than home lawn equipment, and it is much more efficient to run a huge power plant at full efficiency than to start tens of thousands of small engines for a few minutes at a time.
Small engines do not have emissions controls like automobile engines do. In California, small engines put out more smog-forming emissions than automobiles. Other heat engines are getting cleaner, including electric power plants, but small engines are stuck in the 1970s.

Gasoline lawnmowers are much dirtier than combustion power plants. EPA Phase 3 compliant gasoline lawnmowers emit up to 10 g/kWh of hydrocarbons + NOx. Natural gas power plants have gotten so clean that emissions are below 0.05 g/kWh of hydrocarbons + NOx. That is 0.5% of the EPA limit for gasoline lawnmowers.

Even worse, gasoline lawnmowers only hold their EPA rating for 125 hours. After that, they're allowed to emit any level of pollution. The manufacturers are also testing them under perfect conditions. Manufacturing tolerances are very loose for small engines, so a lot of them violate their emissions rating even when they're new.

That's why I said that electric lawnmowers are "practically zero emissions" compared to gasoline lawnmowers. It's not exactly zero, but it's below 0.5%. If you round to whole percentages, emissions from electric lawnmowers are 0% of emissions from gasoline lawnmowers.
homebuyer6426 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 4:50 am I don't think you got my meaning. The electricity needed to charge the batteries generally comes from fossil fuels. So if your local power plant is especially dirty, you could actually be creating more pollution using an electric motor compared to gas.
Coal power plants emit 10 times the NOx per kWh, but that only increases the electric lawnmower's emissions to 2-3% of a gasoline lawnmower. It no longer rounds to zero, but it's still much cleaner.

Small engines are the dirtiest engines that the average American will personally operate. The design is dirty, the manufacturing is sloppy, and the testing is haphazard.
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corn18
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

Seriously, can't I just charge it with a 200W solar panel? Would that end the incessant environmental impact talk?
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Normchad »

corn18 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:35 am
CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:28 am
corn18 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:18 am I have made the switch to all Ego yard tools: 21" self-propelled lawn mower, edger, trimmer, blower, chain saw and self-propelled snow blower.
Brianmcg321 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 1:55 pm I wouldn’t want an electric rider unless Tesla started making one. I have an Ego blower and trimmer and I love them. But one of the battery packs has degraded significantly. I’ve owned the blower for five years. Those batteries are extremely expensive to replace. I can only imagine how many batteries you might go through with a riding lawn mower.
I hope I don't derail this thread, but I bought the Ego blower and trimmer last year, and I absolutely loathe the trimmer. I have never had a trimmer where I have to change the string so often. Changing the string is also so cumbersome. It drives me insane.

Am I doing something wrong?
I don't think you are doing anything wrong. The string that came with my Ego string trimmer lasted a full season. Then I replaced it with some sort of green stuff and that crap doesn't last at all. I need to find something tougher.
I recommend putting a “speed head” on it. You can buy them at Amazon or a home improvement store. I put one of my Makita battery trimmer and recommend it.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by AerialWombat »

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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by iamlucky13 »

corn18 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:19 pm Seriously, can't I just charge it with a 200W solar panel? Would that end the incessant environmental impact talk?
Theoretically that would recharge your batteries in 1-2 days of good sun exposure, although likely not as simply as you'd like since the panel is one voltage and unregulated on its own, the battery is another voltage and must be regulated for the final stage of charging, and the charger that the manufacturer intends to perform that regulation is yet another voltage, normally AC, and depending how it works internally, may or may not work right without enough power for the normal charge rate, which is more than a 200W panel is going to provide most or all of the time.

The real solution to the environmental talk in this thread is just ignore it, because that wasn't your reason for buying electric in the first place and the net benefit of a solar panel just to charge an intermittent use device is small at best, and perhaps negative.

Ignoring it is not likely to end the environmental talk, because the topic naturally brings in a lot of people interested in electric mowers, some of whom are interested in the environmental aspect specifically (both favorably and warily, as you have seen). But ignoring it does resolve feeling like other people expect you to justify your purchase to them, which if you're like me, is how I tend to feel when conversations go this way.

Also, I estimate you will use about $4 per year worth of electricity with your new Ego, so spending $200-300 on a solar panel plus the other components that would be needed to make that work out is economically uncompelling.

If solar is something that interests you, get a grid-tied system to maximize its utilization, and treat it as an entirely separate financial decision from your electric mower purchase.

Otherwise, just take a moment to chuckle at the amount of tangential discussion your $4 worth of electricity per year is generating (which to be fair, I have been a part of). :wink:
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by snackdog »

AerialWombat wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:11 pm
corn18 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 6:19 pm Seriously, can't I just charge it with a 200W solar panel? Would that end the incessant environmental impact talk?
Yes. :sharebeer
California recently had some 100% renewable grid electricity days, so it is possible and getting more common.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by corn18 »

UPDATE:

I went and picked up the Ego Z6 yesterday. I had it set for delivery but that kept getting pushed out, so I just decided to go pick it up. Had to rent a U-Haul trailer to get it home.

I put it together on the trailer so I could just drive it off. Well, that didn't work out. Seems the main control panel / display is DOA. Charges fine. The green start button lights up. The USB port works. But I cannot power up the mower. After calls to Ego and Lowes asking me stupid questions, I am going to return it and rethink all this.

Although all the reviews are glowing, this failure has put me off to all the techno wizardry. I know how to work on a gas mower (I used to flip them) and I know I can always get one up and running without a lot of fuss. I don't know how much a new display costs, but my guess is it ain't cheap. And while this failure will cost me nothing, I am concerned about what happens in 5 years when the warranty is up.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

andypanda wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:12 pm "Do you remember all those old films and the "Smog days"? Where you could literally see the air? "

Old films? I'm so old I remember when California still had clean air.
I was watching an old film from LA in the 1930s - you can see the smog. I think Raymond Chandler makes a remark about it too (Lew Archer, which is Ross McDonald?, writing in the 1950s certainly does).

My father was living in London during The Great Fog - when c 10k people died as a result of a 2 week smog event (1952 from memory). He also remembered when Sloane Square was flooding - a warning for the past for the future (the Thames Barrier was eventually built, but it will in time be superseded by changing conditions).
I also remember when the river caught on fire...

"On June 22, 1969, an oil slick caught fire on the Cuyahoga River just southeast of downtown Cleveland, Ohio. The image that the "the river caught fire" motivated change to protect the environment. However, this was in fact the thirteenth recorded time that the river had caught fire since 1868."

I also participated in the first Earth Day in 1970. Some of us old folks don't need to be preached at by the newly converted. ;)
I am remembering the classic Pogo cartoon "We have met the enemy. And he is us".

I think the challenge to us "old folks" is that there was a problem - and it was not solved. Or it was partly solved, but we left a bigger one on the table.

Nonetheless Mexico City and Tokyo used to have the worst smog in the world. They do no longer (and are much better). So that's progress.
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Re: Debating an electric zero turn mower

Post by Valuethinker »

iamlucky13 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:09 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:17 am The pace of adoption of some of these technologies is dizzying. From nowhere to where we are now in 10-12 years. Thinking at wind and solar installations. Also EVs.
In a way yes, and in a way no.

EV tax credits have been in place for a dozen years in the US. We've been offering a lot of money to incentivize their adoption for a fairly significant time. The largest EV manufacturer delivered their first vehicle 16 years ago. The market share is still only at 5% of sales.

Wind tax credits have been in place for 30 years. I remember being awestruck at one of the first major wind farms in my area 20 years ago, made viable in part by recent significant increases in size and cost of the turbines. The 600 kW turbines being installed at this farm were far bigger and more economical than the 60 kW turbines at the well-known Altamont Pass wind far. In relative terms, the wind market grew by huge leaps and bounds since then. Yet that growth has only taken it to a 9% share of US electricity generation.
And now we are at 12 GW turbines (offshore). Wind power is getting on for 25% of UK's generation. That's from nearly nothing 20 years ago. Ger-Belgium-Netherlands have just initialled a deal for 130 GW in the North Sea by 2050. UK will add something like 100 GW to that.

The UK subsidy to offshore wind is now working in reverse - used a Contract for Difference structure, and the market electricity price is now so high that the scheme is paying in, rather than out.

(UK onshore wind is somewhat stymied by local opposition & political sensitivity. However this is much more of an issue for England than for Scotland and Wales, which have lower population densities (and more wind)).
But the growth is continuing very strongly for certain, especially for EV's and solar. The rosier estimates for EV adoption are 50% of sales in the US in as little as a decade from now.
If you look at the Texas solar installations, for example, they are nothing short of phenomenal. Granted, Capacity Factors are low.

Certainly 50% of sales is credible given it's 20% in other places, right now.
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