Translating legal description of property

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michaeljc70
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Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Is there an easy way (or any way) to translate the legal description of parts of a piece of property into something understandable?

The beginning part looks like this and goes on from there:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT pART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RlGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN ELEVATION OF +20.06 FEET
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Sandtrap »

michaeljc70 wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm Is there an easy way (or any way) to translate the legal description of parts of a piece of property into something understandable?

The beginning part looks like this and goes on from there:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT pART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RlGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN ELEVATION OF +20.06 FEET
A "to scale" drawing/plan of property with these notations, etc, can be attached.
For elevations, topographical lines/etc, can be added.

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lthenderson
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by lthenderson »

I usually start with an appropriate map of the immediate area and a pencil and start breaking things into small chunks of description. I haven't done any urban descriptions like that but almost all acreage descriptions start at the "section" level and usually break that into "quadrants" and then break each quadrant into more quadrants if necessary.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Random Poster »

I’m guessing that, based on the snippet provided, you will need to look at the legal description of the adjacent parcels of land to figure out the boundaries of your parcel.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by David S »

If there is no recorded plat referenced or on file, then a system known as “Metes and Bounds” is used.
It basically describes how you would draw a given plat, using a series of lines, angles and distances. “Metes” refers to straight line distances and “bounds” refers to lines that are less specific, sometimes natural, such as a creek or dirt road or foot path.
There is generally a “point of beginning” (POB), which references some local landmark that is relatively easy to locate, from which a distance and angle are given to proceed. Additional distances/angles are given from each succeeding point until the boundary “closes.”
Residential plats are usually simple rectangles, with four points and four sides, and angles described as north, west, east, etc. Rural and commercial plats are often more complex, and the written legal descriptions can be difficult to follow. Angles might look like “34 degrees north of east”, or “12 degrees west of south.”
But in my 40 years of practice, I’ve never seen gibberish like what you have posted. It could be something archaic, or mis-transposed over the years. But there is definitely some missing information there.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by suemarkp »

I was just attempting to translate mine because I'm doing a boundary change. Seems pretty typical. All of those distances are from some reference point or line, which doesn't seem to be in the included snippet. In our area, they use section/township/range which many maps will list. That is a 1 mile square area. That is then divided into quarters of a section and they are designated northwest, northeast, southwest, and southeast quarter sections, and those quarters may be subdivided again with the same nomenclature.

That provides language like 300 feet from the south border of the SW quarter of the NW quarter of section 4 township 22 range 3 ....

So hopefully what you didn't post is providing the initial corner or boundary line from which these other references are referencing. I have never seen the horizontal plane mentioned though, which makes it seem like you only own the land below 20' in some portion. Maybe that is following some wiggly slope.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Thanks for the responses. I'll probably never figure it out. It isn't crucial. It (supposedly) describes the common areas of a homeowner's association. It should translate to a driveway and some sidewalks. There was a lawsuit recently regarding the common areas and I was curious as to what this translated to and if it would have affected the outcome of the lawsuit.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by boomer_techie »

michaeljc70 wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:12 pm THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET,
Presumably there's a rectangle, and also presumably, the north edge is exactly east-west, and the east edge is exactly north-south. From the north edge, measure to the south for 272.25 feet. From the east edge, measure to the west 44.40 feet, and then another 20.60 feet. This 272.25 by 20.60 foot rectangle is part of the described area.
TOGETHER WITH
THAT pART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET
I think we're back to the original rectangle. Now we have an area starting 73.03 feet from the north edge and going to 81.55 from the north edge. This is 44.40 feet east-west, going from the previous portion, all the way to the east edge of the original rectangle. This looks to be an 8.52 foot wide sidewalk that is 44.40 feet long.
(AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RlGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN ELEVATION OF +20.06 FEET
And now I'm lost. Presumably there's a hill, or stairs, or a lake/ocean. I have no idea what would be the reference for the +20.06 feet.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by AprilMay »

The configuration looks like a capital F without the top "bar" if that makes sense. One long rectangle north to south and a shorter rectangle east to west connecting to it. Like this: I-

I think reference to horizontal planes are probably pretty common in condominiums. You mentioned homeowner's association, so this makes sense.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

This is old, but the issue has come up again. If I need this legal description translated:

1) Can I do this myself? I live in a pretty big county and don't know what kind of online resources are available. I doubt I can..but worth asking.
2) If not, what kind of professional would be able to do this?
3) Is there software that might do this?

To recap, this is a legal description of part of a property. Essentially, the common areas of a town home development.

I am posting more of the description with the subdivisions/county blocked out for privacy reasons:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF THE
SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT
OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF THE SOUTH 5 ACRES EAST OF THE RAILROAD
OF LOT 6 IN YYYY AND ZZZZZ SUBDIVISION OF THE WEST HALF OF THE
NORTHEAST QUARTER, SECTION 25, TOWNSHIP 40 NORTH, RANGE 13, EAST OF THE THIRD
PRINCIPAL MERIDIAN, IN ABC COUNTY.

Thanks
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Joey Jo Jo Jr »

1) can you do this yourself? Sure, if you’re a surveyor.
2) what kind of professional? See above.
3) is there software? Yes, surveyors use software.

Bonus: Abraham Lincoln and other early lawyers were also surveyors. Pretty important skills when colonizing a new continent, or when getting into a fight about your HOA’s common area. May your better angels, and your better angles, prevail.
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michaeljc70
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:43 pm 1) can you do this yourself? Sure, if you’re a surveyor.
2) what kind of professional? See above.
3) is there software? Yes, surveyors use software.

Bonus: Abraham Lincoln and other early lawyers were also surveyors. Pretty important skills when colonizing a new continent, or when getting into a fight about your HOA’s common area. May your better angels, and your better angles, prevail.
Understood. Even a rough estimation of the shape of this would help. Someone described it as an F without the top part above. I thought there would be more to it. Our Declarations and ByLaws were poorly drafted. The "funny" thing is, they state the common area description can only be updated if adding additional property to the association. So, if it is wrong, it is wrong.

I would think it would be something like this (lines being driveways or walkways):

Code: Select all

-------------------------------------
                   -
                   -
                   -
                   -
                   -
------------------------------------
                   -
                   -
                   -
                   -
-----------------------------------
The lower line though could be city property...or at least an easement to the city. This also ignores a garbage area not in my "drawing". So, as I stated above, I think the legal description might be missing things that were intended to be in it.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Joey Jo Jo Jr »

The cynic in me thinks the HOA board is just going to do what it wants to for the insiders unless subject to the jurisdiction of a judge who, in turn, is not going to care what anyone but a surveyor thinks either. But if you have a chance of convincing the HOA of taking some action based on your interpretation of the legal description then I wish you good luck in your surveyorless quest.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by 123 »

Since there's an HOA involved there's a good chance that there's a plot map filed with the county for the development that could be helpful. I'm in California and many times local planning commission minutes, agendas, and submissions are available online depending on the city. Some counties have online geographical information systems that will display parcel property boundaries overlaid on a Google map or satellite image. Of course unusual topology can make these difficult to interpet but they can be a helpful start.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by lthenderson »

michaeljc70 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:04 pm This is old, but the issue has come up again. If I need this legal description translated:

1) Can I do this myself? I live in a pretty big county and don't know what kind of online resources are available. I doubt I can..but worth asking.
2) If not, what kind of professional would be able to do this?
3) Is there software that might do this?

To recap, this is a legal description of part of a property. Essentially, the common areas of a town home development.

I am posting more of the description with the subdivisions/county blocked out for privacy reasons:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF THE
SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT
OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF THE SOUTH 5 ACRES EAST OF THE RAILROAD
OF LOT 6 IN YYYY AND ZZZZZ SUBDIVISION OF THE WEST HALF OF THE
NORTHEAST QUARTER, SECTION 25, TOWNSHIP 40 NORTH, RANGE 13, EAST OF THE THIRD
PRINCIPAL MERIDIAN, IN ABC COUNTY.

Thanks
Let me take a step back and ask why you need it "translated" and I'm not completely sure what you mean by translating? It has to be written this way for legal reasons and as long as you know the approximate boundaries of your property, what does it matter? If you are going to do something exactly on the boundary of your property, you should hire a surveyor to locate the exact boundary and mark it before doing so. I would advise against doing the surveying process yourself to locate your boundary without the proper education and calibrated tools, as the repercussions for being wrong could be expensive.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

lthenderson wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:20 am
michaeljc70 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:04 pm This is old, but the issue has come up again. If I need this legal description translated:

1) Can I do this myself? I live in a pretty big county and don't know what kind of online resources are available. I doubt I can..but worth asking.
2) If not, what kind of professional would be able to do this?
3) Is there software that might do this?

To recap, this is a legal description of part of a property. Essentially, the common areas of a town home development.

I am posting more of the description with the subdivisions/county blocked out for privacy reasons:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF THE
SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT
OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF THE SOUTH 5 ACRES EAST OF THE RAILROAD
OF LOT 6 IN YYYY AND ZZZZZ SUBDIVISION OF THE WEST HALF OF THE
NORTHEAST QUARTER, SECTION 25, TOWNSHIP 40 NORTH, RANGE 13, EAST OF THE THIRD
PRINCIPAL MERIDIAN, IN ABC COUNTY.

Thanks
Let me take a step back and ask why you need it "translated" and I'm not completely sure what you mean by translating? It has to be written this way for legal reasons and as long as you know the approximate boundaries of your property, what does it matter? If you are going to do something exactly on the boundary of your property, you should hire a surveyor to locate the exact boundary and mark it before doing so. I would advise against doing the surveying process yourself to locate your boundary without the proper education and calibrated tools, as the repercussions for being wrong could be expensive.
By "translated" I mean something a non-surveyor could understand. Like on a map or at least a size/shape. Like "this is the back 20 feet of the property and the front 20 feet of the property." It doesn't have to be precise. It is to determine if the area outside particular townhomes front doors (where their ac units are located) is part of the common area and should be taken care of by the association or the homeowner. The reason being only half the units have this landscaping/maintenance done on the HOA's dime.

I do have some plats/surveys but see no designation of common areas on them.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

I’m surprised the phrase “running thence” isn’t part of the description. That used to be part of the terminology. Nothing wrong with it not being there, it just means that what you gave is less antiquated than some property descriptions. Ie, the wording you cite is actually an improvement.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Joey Jo Jo Jr wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:12 am The cynic in me thinks the HOA board is just going to do what it wants to for the insiders unless subject to the jurisdiction of a judge who, in turn, is not going to care what anyone but a surveyor thinks either. But if you have a chance of convincing the HOA of taking some action based on your interpretation of the legal description then I wish you good luck in your surveyorless quest.
There is a mentality that because something is the way it was always done makes it right. I have pushed back on blatant overreach via a small claims lawsuit a couple years ago (that I won).
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by pshonore »

Not to complicate things but in CT we also have curved boundary lines if there's a curve in the road. Usually described with total length of the curve, degrees of a circle and radius of the circle contained within.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by lthenderson »

michaeljc70 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:31 am By "translated" I mean something a non-surveyor could understand. Like on a map or at least a size/shape. Like "this is the back 20 feet of the property and the front 20 feet of the property." It doesn't have to be precise. It is to determine if the area outside particular townhomes front doors (where their ac units are located) is part of the common area and should be taken care of by the association or the homeowner. The reason being only half the units have this landscaping/maintenance done on the HOA's dime.
Thanks for the explanation and it makes sense to me. I really don't think there is a method to translate this into simpler terms that a non-surveyor could understand. Doing so will only make it less accurate and open for interpretation. I think your only solution will be to have the area re-surveyed and then to put in more permanent markers to denote boundaries and common areas.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by muddgirl »

Thank you for posting the whole text. This is the description of a rectangular property survey. Large parts of the country were divided up into rectangles, then each rectangle was divided and subdivided and subdivided. You read this kind of survey from end to beginning, which is from largest subdivision to smallest.

This pdf has a lot of information on reading rectangular surveys but it doesn't replace hiring a surveyor.

https://www.msbar.org/media/3014/neill- ... andout.pdf

And here is another resource on reading rectangular surveys.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Re ... ar_Surveys

I read these sometimes for genealogy research, so it is certainly possible. I'm not sure if there is a nifty tool to diagram rectangular surveys the way there is for metes and bounds. Nevertheless I would probably start with Google Earth and the Earthpoint plugin as recommended by family search.

I am not a lawyer.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by bwb100 »

Copied and pasted into bard (google AI). Doesn't seem too helpful but is interesting.

The area you are describing is a trapezoid with a base of 272.25 feet and two legs of 65.0 feet and 44.40 feet. The height of the trapezoid is 8.52 feet, and the top of the trapezoid is located 20.06 feet above the horizontal plane. The area of the trapezoid is equal to 1/2 * (base 1 + base 2) * height = 1/2 * (272.25 + 44.40) * 8.52 = 1375.07 square feet. The area of the part of the trapezoid that lies below the horizontal plane is equal to the area of the trapezoid minus the area of the triangle that is formed by the top of the trapezoid, the horizontal plane, and the two legs of the trapezoid. The area of the triangle is equal to 1/2 * base * height = 1/2 * 44.40 * 20.06 = 489.04 square feet. Therefore, the area of the part of the trapezoid that lies below the horizontal plane is 1375.07 - 489.04 = 886.03 square feet.

The area of the tract of land you are describing is equal to the area of the trapezoid plus the area of the triangle. The area of the tract of land is equal to 886.03 + 489.04 = 1375.11 square feet.

The tract of land is located in the following location:

The south 9.0 feet of lot 32
Lots 33 to 41, both inclusive
Taken as a single tract of land
In XXXXX subdivision
Of the south 5 acres east of the railroad
Of lot 6 in YYYY and ZZZZZ subdivision
Of the west half of the northeast quarter, section 25, township 40 north, range 13, east of the third principal meridian, in ABC county.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by brokendirtdart »

michaeljc70 wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:31 am
lthenderson wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:20 am
michaeljc70 wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:04 pm This is old, but the issue has come up again. If I need this legal description translated:

1) Can I do this myself? I live in a pretty big county and don't know what kind of online resources are available. I doubt I can..but worth asking.
2) If not, what kind of professional would be able to do this?
3) Is there software that might do this?

To recap, this is a legal description of part of a property. Essentially, the common areas of a town home development.

I am posting more of the description with the subdivisions/county blocked out for privacy reasons:

THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET, TOGETHER WITH
THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS
MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A
HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF THE
SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT
OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF THE SOUTH 5 ACRES EAST OF THE RAILROAD
OF LOT 6 IN YYYY AND ZZZZZ SUBDIVISION OF THE WEST HALF OF THE
NORTHEAST QUARTER, SECTION 25, TOWNSHIP 40 NORTH, RANGE 13, EAST OF THE THIRD
PRINCIPAL MERIDIAN, IN ABC COUNTY.

Thanks
Let me take a step back and ask why you need it "translated" and I'm not completely sure what you mean by translating? It has to be written this way for legal reasons and as long as you know the approximate boundaries of your property, what does it matter? If you are going to do something exactly on the boundary of your property, you should hire a surveyor to locate the exact boundary and mark it before doing so. I would advise against doing the surveying process yourself to locate your boundary without the proper education and calibrated tools, as the repercussions for being wrong could be expensive.
By "translated" I mean something a non-surveyor could understand. Like on a map or at least a size/shape. Like "this is the back 20 feet of the property and the front 20 feet of the property." It doesn't have to be precise. It is to determine if the area outside particular townhomes front doors (where their ac units are located) is part of the common area and should be taken care of by the association or the homeowner. The reason being only half the units have this landscaping/maintenance done on the HOA's dime.

I do have some plats/surveys but see no designation of common areas on them.

A surveyor will be able to do all of that for you. Whether you'll be able to legally hire a surveyor for work on someone else's property(your "common areas") is another discussion.

The survey for my lot translated the original deed with 100+ year old descriptions, remarked everything, placed a new marker where one was missing, and provided me with an updated map showing the current abuttors/easements. I am in the process of plugging the markers into my GPS as waypoints that I can export into google maps so I can find them in the future.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Soaker »

What we have here is an old subdivision map which has parcels labeled Lots 1 to 100 (or whatever) on it.
THE SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF blah blah blah
For the sake of doing a legible drawing I'm going to arbitrarily say that each lot on that old subdivision map is 50' N-S x 300' E-W. I would need to see the specific subdivision map to do an accurate drawing but this should convey the idea.

Image

In this example Lots 32 through 41 in total measure 500' N-S and 300' E-W. But we are only taking the south 9 feet of Lot 32; the north 41 feet of Lot 32 belongs to some other property owner. Therefore our parcel is 459' N-S x 300' E-W. Now we're going to figure out which portions of this parcel are included in this legal description.
THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET
We work backwards. First we draw an E-W line 272.25 south of the north property line. Then we draw a N-S line 65 feet west of the east property line. Finally we draw another N-S line 20.6 east of and parallel to that N-S line we just drew. The resulting strip is shown as the single cross-hatched portion on the above plat. This description appears to cover the surface of the land as well as all the dirt directly below it.
TOGETHER WITH THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF...
Similarly working backwards, draw an E-W line 81.55 feet south of the north line of the property. Then draw another E-W line 8.52 feet north of that last line. As to the "east 44.40 feet"...well, we already drew the west line of that when we plotted the first strip, because 65' - 20.6' = 44.4'. This appears to be an underground strip which lies below a depth of 20.06' elevation, and it's shown as the double cross-hatched strip. It doesn't include the dirt between 20.06' elevation and ground level.
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Soaker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:01 pm What we have here is an old subdivision map which has parcels labeled Lots 1 to 100 (or whatever) on it.
THE SOUTH 9.0 FEET OF LOT 32 AND LOTS 33 TO 41 BOTH INCLUSIVE TAKEN AS A SINGLE TRACT OF LAND IN XXXXX SUBDIVISION OF blah blah blah
For the sake of doing a legible drawing I'm going to arbitrarily say that each lot on that old subdivision map is 50' N-S x 300' E-W. I would need to see the specific subdivision map to do an accurate drawing but this should convey the idea.

Image

In this example Lots 32 through 41 in total measure 500' N-S and 300' E-W. But we are only taking the south 9 feet of Lot 32; the north 41 feet of Lot 32 belongs to some other property owner. Therefore our parcel is 459' N-S x 300' E-W. Now we're going to figure out which portions of this parcel are included in this legal description.
THE WEST 20.60 FEET OF THE EAST 65.0 FEET OF THE NORTH 272.25 FEET
We work backwards. First we draw an E-W line 272.25 south of the north property line. Then we draw a N-S line 65 feet west of the east property line. Finally we draw another N-S line 20.6 east of and parallel to that N-S line we just drew. The resulting strip is shown as the single cross-hatched portion on the above plat. This description appears to cover the surface of the land as well as all the dirt directly below it.
TOGETHER WITH THAT PART OF THE EAST 44.40 FEET OF THE SOUTH 8.52 FEET OF THE NORTH 81.55 FEET (AS MEASURED ON THE EAST LINE AND AT RIGHT ANGLES THERETO) WHICH LIES BELOW A HORIZONTAL PLANE HAVING AN Elevation OF +20.06 FEET CHICAGO CITY DATUM OF...
Similarly working backwards, draw an E-W line 81.55 feet south of the north line of the property. Then draw another E-W line 8.52 feet north of that last line. As to the "east 44.40 feet"...well, we already drew the west line of that when we plotted the first strip, because 65' - 20.6' = 44.4'. This appears to be an underground strip which lies below a depth of 20.06' elevation, and it's shown as the double cross-hatched strip. It doesn't include the dirt between 20.06' elevation and ground level.
Thanks. The Lots part is throwing me off as I've looked through a lot of records (county, city, development) and really haven't found anything to correspond to them.

I guess my broad question is, does this description include an approximately 20' wide driveway, approximately 8' wide walkway AND an approximately 20' wide walkway or just one 20' wide space?

I guess to further convolute this, there is a separate association that shares the walkway in question so it could be 1/2 of the 20 feet. What isn't in question is that the one walkway (main entrance, leads to back units, mail room) and the shared driveway are common elements.

I may just recommend we hire a surveyor to sort this out. I just wanted to have a general idea in advance as I think a lot of people will flip out if my assumption (that what has been treated as common elements for 20+ years aren't) is true.
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Soaker
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Re: Translating legal description of property

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michaeljc70 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:59 pm Thanks. The Lots part is throwing me off as I've looked through a lot of records (county, city, development) and really haven't found anything to correspond to them.

I guess my broad question is, does this description include an approximately 20' wide driveway, approximately 8' wide walkway AND an approximately 20' wide walkway or just one 20' wide space?

I guess to further convolute this, there is a separate association that shares the walkway in question so it could be 1/2 of the 20 feet. What isn't in question is that the one walkway (main entrance, leads to back units, mail room) and the shared driveway are common elements.

I may just recommend we hire a surveyor to sort this out. I just wanted to have a general idea in advance as I think a lot of people will flip out if my assumption (that what has been treated as common elements for 20+ years aren't) is true.
The description includes one north-south strip, 272.25 feet long and 20.6 feet wide, and a smaller strip that connects to it and runs perpendicular to the longer strip, 44.4 feet long and 8.52 feet wide.

The short, narrow strip sounds like it runs underground ("below a horizontal plane having an elevation of +20.06 feet"). Knowing nothing else about it I was thinking the shared elements are a single long 20.6-foot-wide paved driveway/walkway with drainage or water lines underneath, and a short perpendicular underground drainage or water pipe which connects to the pipes under the driveway. There could possibly be an 8' walkway above the short underground pipe, but that shorter walkway isn't shared with the other association? The document you are pulling that legal description off of, what does the paragraph immediately before the legal description say? Perhaps "A non-exclusive easement for the purposes of..."? That may answer your question.
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michaeljc70
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by michaeljc70 »

Soaker wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:30 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:59 pm Thanks. The Lots part is throwing me off as I've looked through a lot of records (county, city, development) and really haven't found anything to correspond to them.

I guess my broad question is, does this description include an approximately 20' wide driveway, approximately 8' wide walkway AND an approximately 20' wide walkway or just one 20' wide space?

I guess to further convolute this, there is a separate association that shares the walkway in question so it could be 1/2 of the 20 feet. What isn't in question is that the one walkway (main entrance, leads to back units, mail room) and the shared driveway are common elements.

I may just recommend we hire a surveyor to sort this out. I just wanted to have a general idea in advance as I think a lot of people will flip out if my assumption (that what has been treated as common elements for 20+ years aren't) is true.
The description includes one north-south strip, 272.25 feet long and 20.6 feet wide, and a smaller strip that connects to it and runs perpendicular to the longer strip, 44.4 feet long and 8.52 feet wide.

The short, narrow strip sounds like it runs underground ("below a horizontal plane having an elevation of +20.06 feet"). Knowing nothing else about it I was thinking the shared elements are a single long 20.6-foot-wide paved driveway/walkway with drainage or water lines underneath, and a short perpendicular underground drainage or water pipe which connects to the pipes under the driveway. There could possibly be an 8' walkway above the short underground pipe, but that shorter walkway isn't shared with the other association? The document you are pulling that legal description off of, what does the paragraph immediately before the legal description say? Perhaps "A non-exclusive easement for the purposes of..."? That may answer your question.
That makes sense. The driveway could very well be 272' long and is around 20' wide. The 8' walkway does service both associations. It should be longer than 44.4 feet long though. I would say around 40' + 40' with it crossing the 20' driveway. It actually runs under 2 townhouse units (one on each side of the driveway) but at grade level.

The legal description I posted is from an exhibit at the end of the docs so there is nothing related around it.

This may be getting into the weeds, but if a private A/C unit is on it, to me it would either not be a common element or there would be an easement granted to the unit owner for that common element.
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Soaker
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Re: Translating legal description of property

Post by Soaker »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:14 pm That makes sense. The driveway could very well be 272' long and is around 20' wide. The 8' walkway does service both associations. It should be longer than 44.4 feet long though. I would say around 40' + 40' with it crossing the 20' driveway. It actually runs under 2 townhouse units (one on each side of the driveway) but at grade level.

The legal description I posted is from an exhibit at the end of the docs so there is nothing related around it.

This may be getting into the weeds, but if a private A/C unit is on it, to me it would either not be a common element or there would be an easement granted to the unit owner for that common element.
Aha! So we're not talking about something underground, the "horizontal plane having an elevation of +20.06 feet" is the underside, or below, of an elevated building.

The description of the 8' walkway only describes a strip on the east side of the 20' driveway. Whatever walkway exists to the west of the 20' driveway, it's not mentioned in that legal description.

As to "The legal description I posted is from an exhibit at the end of the docs"...so the page you're looking at just says "Exhibit A" and then has that legal description. You'll have to dig back into those documents and see where "Exhibit A" is mentioned, and that should give you some more detail.

I worked for a title company in California (FIREd in 2006 and never regretted it for a moment). If you have further questions, you might try calling the local office of the company that issued your owner's title insurance policy. Terminology varies by region, but in California in 2006 you would ask to speak to the Chief Title Officer. You would explain your question to that person, and he or she would probably have some lower-level Title Officer (me) call you back to discuss it with you. That's how it would have worked 17 years ago; I haven't had anything to do with title companies since then so I don't know what kind of response you might get now in your area.
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