WoodSpinner wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:26 pmSo far, you are the only one I have read make this allegation!
WoodSpinner
Thank you.
WoodSpinner wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:26 pmSo far, you are the only one I have read make this allegation!
WoodSpinner
I agree with your analysis.
Thank you, Chardo.
How is this possible?WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:34 pmIconicus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:48 pmNone of the agents that I've worked with this month were able to find such a plan (I don't live in NY). I see that this post was about a year ago. If it is true that you can still buy such a catastrophic plan policy (elim. period = 3yr, unlimited benefit period), please PM me.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pmIt was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
There are policies like that which include a lump sum single premium (which is used to pay for the care during the elimination period) followed by annual premiums to pay for the unlimited long-term care benefits.
However, if you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you can get an unlimited benefit period with a 180-day elimination period FOR LESS THAN a policy with a three-year elimination period and an unlimited benefit period.
tj wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:46 pmHow is this possible?WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:34 pmIconicus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 8:48 pmNone of the agents that I've worked with this month were able to find such a plan (I don't live in NY). I see that this post was about a year ago. If it is true that you can still buy such a catastrophic plan policy (elim. period = 3yr, unlimited benefit period), please PM me.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 1:48 pmIt was actually a one-time $250K premium. It's a truly "catastrophic plan". It pays practically nothing for the first 36 months (about $3K per month per spouse.) Beginning with the 37th month of care it starts to pay an inflated amount which grows by 5% compound every year from the very first policy year (e.g. . There's no limit on how long it can pay benefits. It'll never run out of LTC benefits.) It's the "high deductible, catastrophic policy" many bogleheads have expressed an interest in. It's out there. You just have to find it. It's easy to qualify for, too. These particular clients had some very challenging health issues that make the probability of needing care for a long time a very real possibility. They would not have been able to qualify for a rich traditional LTCi policy. The $250K was less than 5% of his portfolio. He used the $250K as a way to hedge his bets.
There are policies like that which include a lump sum single premium (which is used to pay for the care during the elimination period) followed by annual premiums to pay for the unlimited long-term care benefits.
However, if you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you can get an unlimited benefit period with a 180-day elimination period FOR LESS THAN a policy with a three-year elimination period and an unlimited benefit period.
WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:18 pm The policy with the 180 day elimination period has no death benefit and no cash value. But it does have an unlimited benefit period and inflation protection.
The policy with the "long elimination period" has a death benefit and requires a large lump sum premium up front to fund care during the elimination period. That's why it's more expensive.
It's things like this that can come across, regardless of one's intentions, as being very misleading.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:34 pm There are policies like that which include a lump sum single premium (which is used to pay for the care during the elimination period) followed by annual premiums to pay for the unlimited long-term care benefits.
However, if you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you can get an unlimited benefit period with a 180-day elimination period FOR LESS THAN a policy with a three-year elimination period and an unlimited benefit period.
ResearchMed wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:02 pmWoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:18 pm The policy with the 180 day elimination period has no death benefit and no cash value. But it does have an unlimited benefit period and inflation protection.
The policy with the "long elimination period" has a death benefit and requires a large lump sum premium up front to fund care during the elimination period. That's why it's more expensive.
You *REALLY* should have included this information ^^ when you wrote:
It's things like this that can come across, regardless of one's intentions, as being very misleading.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:34 pm There are policies like that which include a lump sum single premium (which is used to pay for the care during the elimination period) followed by annual premiums to pay for the unlimited long-term care benefits.
However, if you're healthy enough to qualify for a traditional LTCi policy, you can get an unlimited benefit period with a 180-day elimination period FOR LESS THAN a policy with a three-year elimination period and an unlimited benefit period.
And there was no need to omit the obviously important missing information!
This kind of thing can *really* get people suspicious.
(Yes, that could include me, too. Given that you aren't selling to any of us, even if some might have wanted to discuss it with you, I wonder *why* you omitted that important clarifying information...)
RM
No worries—glad it helped.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 12:35 pmThank you WoodSpinner. You've made my day!WoodSpinner wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:23 pmAbsolutely NOT!!
He fas done a great job of informing, not SOLICITING.
It’s very valuable insights!
WoodSpinner
First, thank you for the post, I think it’s excellent advice.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 am
Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.
Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?
WoodSpinner wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:21 pmFirst, thank you for the post, I think it’s excellent advice.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 am
Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.
Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?
I am fortunate enough to have a reasonable LTC policy (at least for now) through CalPers. There have been several premium increases but the costs are still reasonable. My wife OTOH is not insurable due to an existing medical condition. So we have no choice but to plan partial self-funding.
Goal will be home care if at all possible. Which is leading us to plan a move to a house where it will be easier to age in place.
We have the start off a plan but the bolded questions still stump me. I can take a few guesses but suspect the answers will have to change based on life and circumstances. I have reserved a significant lump sum for Aging and LTC expenses. My best guess was 3 year stay at a SNF but it’s a guess at best. Any suggestions for a better approach will be appreciated.
One area that I wonder about is how to find someone with a medical background that can act as a liaison between my family and a medical care team. Hopefully with connections for a care team as needed to help spell family members as needed. Any tips on how to find someone like this?
Thanks
WoodSpinner
Independent sources beg to differ:
This is STRICT "mis-direction" quote'ing incoherent data-point, the above got nothing to do with failed LTCi insurers/re-insurers ..WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:39 amWhen AIG needed a bailout in the fall of 2008, it was NOT the AIG insurance companies that went "belly up". It was the non-regulated part of the company that sold non-regulated credit default swaps that went "belly up". AIG ended up selling many of its insurance companies (which were all very profitable) in order to pay back to the government all of the "bailout money" plus a profit of about $22 billion.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100397698
sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
Sorry - we don't find love on the Net, nor try to find love from "insurance" folks ..WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 am
Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke...
..
(and/or those loved ones responsible for the care recipient) ..
sc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.
So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.
"One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding" this could be such an "incomplete" statement. What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs -- Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?
What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !? (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)
With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line -- we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
Agree. We need more informed information about this vital and opaque subject, not less (as long as they aren’t soliciting).
Heh, ought to read first paragraph !?smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:31 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.
So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.
"One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding" this could be such an "incomplete" statement. What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs -- Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?
What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !? (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)
With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line -- we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
Would you please describe your-self fund LTC plan in much greater detail?
Do your parents have this same self-funded LTC?
I don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
Are your parents self funding LTC?sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:35 amHeh, ought to read first paragraph !?smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:31 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am We intend to self-fund/expenses not only LTC needs, but just-about every other needs such as: Medical Tourism (if required), any medical-trials, beta-procedures etc (which may or may-not be covered by Medicare and ilk), Vision/Dental among other things with -- with large Trad IRA portfolio. Good bit of such withdrawals (over AGI 7%) may be currently Tax-deductible.
So -- "One dollar in self-funding costs more than one dollar" (though this may almost make sense, drawing large withdrawals from Trad-IRA makes it almost feel like "Tax-Free"). So, in-a-way it could actually cost "less" than one dollar in our plan.
"One dollar in long-term care insurance benefits nets more than one dollar to the portfolio compared to self-funding" this could be such an "incomplete" statement. What if self, spouse (or kids/disabled family) does NEVER incur LTC costs/needs -- Full 100% (or 200% or worse 300%-400%) of the ever-increasing premiums paid could "STRICTLY GO WASTED/LOST"
We have a Question:
What if one needs LTC needs - but LTCi pays say "then" 60% of costs -- and the needy party can't come-up with paying the "40%" remainder of the money; obviously, this person can't join CCRC due to "short" on "40%" funding.
Does one LTC insurance Co. send a check for that "60%" it owes ? Guessing the policy won't cover NOTHING (unless you also come up with the 40% shortfall amount from self-funding -- to be able to join CCRC) ?
What happens to party - if the "policy covered" amount exhausted -- say one $250K ? Would the person be kicked out of one CCRC then ?
Are there uniform/national-level guidelines on Guarantees/rights of LTCi policyholders -- which guarantees insurance/re-insurance, and full payment guarantees of amounts owed in 10-20-30-40-50 years later !? (we all know 2008/2009 many insurance/re-insurance Co.s going belly-up ..)
With that many unknowns -- 10,20,30,40,50 years down the line -- we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
Would you please describe your-self fund LTC plan in much greater detail?
Do your parents have this same self-funded LTC?
You clearly have an axe to grind. That comment is completely off the wall and distorts the comment regarding “ and/or those loved ones responsible for the care recipient)”.
"I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen."Freefun wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 amI don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
In one article it cites a rate increase from a policy in 2004.
In another, it mentions rate increases with no mention of when the policies originated.
I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen, rather that policies originating now reflect necessary price increases. Even the articles you cite seem to back this up, since they mention that rate increases frequently are the result of bad data used for original pricing. I'd imagine data points improved significantly.
Fair enough however it would be helpful to understand for BH'ers policies that had mentioned increases, when those policies originated.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:43 am"I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen."Freefun wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 amI don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
In one article it cites a rate increase from a policy in 2004.
In another, it mentions rate increases with no mention of when the policies originated.
I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen, rather that policies originating now reflect necessary price increases. Even the articles you cite seem to back this up, since they mention that rate increases frequently are the result of bad data used for original pricing. I'd imagine data points improved significantly.
FWIW - we know a number of folks who have known future pricing/costs for LTCi including ourselves. There have been a number of posts on Bogleheads where others have stated the same.
Agreed- it is always good to know as much as you can even about past policies. There have been other posts where folks gave more detail on their policies and increases over time - unfortunately I do not have that link handy.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:43 am"I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen."Freefun wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 amI don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
In one article it cites a rate increase from a policy in 2004.
In another, it mentions rate increases with no mention of when the policies originated.
I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen, rather that policies originating now reflect necessary price increases. Even the articles you cite seem to back this up, since they mention that rate increases frequently are the result of bad data used for original pricing. I'd imagine data points improved significantly.
FWIW - we know a number of folks who have known future pricing/costs for LTCi including ourselves. There have been a number of posts on Bogleheads where others have stated the same.
What are these other plans you had posted about?sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:21 am Fine with folks who bought, paying-thru for respective LTC policies.
Then again - it seems a "self selection" tilted pool in this page of loving rapid responses.
There may be a saying by someone (is that Clark Howard ?) - neither the rich (is that $3 million+), nor the poor typically need/afford LTCi policies.
Got no axe to grind - just trying to research on what the state of affairs in LTCi field. The other day (in a different thread) couple of the current posters (from this thread/page) indicated -- may be I am from/ties-with the Insurance Industry; now -- hearing, I have an axe to grind (against). Loving this ..
Suffice to say that one day we want to strike rich or go broke trying (definitely not helped with LTCi - in either scenarios ..)
Excellent post.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
A few thoughts on self-funding:
The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:
Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.
That’s it.
That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.
Here’s something many people don't think about:
When you need care, you won’t be the one making the decisions anymore.
When your health has been compromised and you need help with basic, daily tasks, the people you’ve invited into your life, your dearest loved ones, will be responsible for your care and safety.
They’ll be the ones making the decisions.
If you’ve never shared your plans to self-insure with them, how do you know they will fulfill your wishes? Keep in mind:
Planning for long-term care is not planning for your death.
Planning for long-term care is planning for your quality of life
(should you ever need daily assistance).
Planning for long-term care is planning for your loved ones’ quality of life (should you ever need daily assistance).
Long-term care planning is not about “you” it's about “them” (your loved ones). The purpose of planning for long-term care is to minimize the negative consequences a long-term care event would have on your family's physical, emotional, and financial well-being.
Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.
Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?
Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke. We expected his care to cost $1X. It cost $5X, which, in his case, was everything they had ever saved. He spent the last two and a half years of his life on Medicaid.
Therefore, you must make a list of your assets and prioritize them in the order in which they should be liquidated to pay for your care.
Make sure your loved ones understand and are in agreement with the strategy (especially your spouse/partner, if applicable). If you don’t make it clear to your loved ones that you want them to spend the assets to pay for your care, they may decide to sacrifice their own health/career/family to try to "save the 401(k)".
Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
There are fair and really good points here. Nothing I say below should detract from that.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
A few thoughts on self-funding:
The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:
Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.
That’s it.
That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.
Here’s something many people don't think about:
When you need care, you won’t be the one making the decisions anymore.
When your health has been compromised and you need help with basic, daily tasks, the people you’ve invited into your life, your dearest loved ones, will be responsible for your care and safety.
They’ll be the ones making the decisions.
If you’ve never shared your plans to self-insure with them, how do you know they will fulfill your wishes? Keep in mind:
Planning for long-term care is not planning for your death.
Planning for long-term care is planning for your quality of life
(should you ever need daily assistance).
Planning for long-term care is planning for your loved ones’ quality of life (should you ever need daily assistance).
Long-term care planning is not about “you” it's about “them” (your loved ones). The purpose of planning for long-term care is to minimize the negative consequences a long-term care event would have on your family's physical, emotional, and financial well-being.
Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.
Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?
Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke. We expected his care to cost $1X. It cost $5X, which, in his case, was everything they had ever saved. He spent the last two and a half years of his life on Medicaid.
Therefore, you must make a list of your assets and prioritize them in the order in which they should be liquidated to pay for your care.
Make sure your loved ones understand and are in agreement with the strategy (especially your spouse/partner, if applicable). If you don’t make it clear to your loved ones that you want them to spend the assets to pay for your care, they may decide to sacrifice their own health/career/family to try to "save the 401(k)".
Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
Good points Mike ..MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:11 amThere are fair and really good points here. Nothing I say below should detract from that.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
A few thoughts on self-funding:
The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:
Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.
That’s it.
That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.
..
Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
However, the statement that "a LTC decision lies in wait for MOST of us" seems an exaggeration. You are the expert here, but really, more than 50% of the population will end up needing LTC?
Beyond that, it will only be a small subset of those people who meet the 2 of 6 ADL's required to qualify for benefits under most policies or have dementia at a level that rises to "severe cognitive impairment". And for those who do, by the time they get there they may well be near the very end of their lives and therefore unlikely to get a lot of value out of all the premiums they've paid.
Sure, there are those who have a stoke or get early onset Alzheimers. But they are very much the exception and not the norm.
This is where I struggle with the decision (the value proposition). Especially for someone who has the resources to self-insure...
Thanks for the tips, will check them out.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 10:55 pm
Hire an aging life specialist:
https://www.aginglifecare.org//
and contact a large home care agency in your area.
I used Amada:
https://www.amadaseniorcare.com/
Here is a thread that I started around my policy and its increase….smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:55 amAgreed- it is always good to know as much as you can even about past policies. There have been other posts where folks gave more detail on their policies and increases over time - unfortunately I do not have that link handy.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:43 am"I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen."Freefun wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 amI don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
In one article it cites a rate increase from a policy in 2004.
In another, it mentions rate increases with no mention of when the policies originated.
I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen, rather that policies originating now reflect necessary price increases. Even the articles you cite seem to back this up, since they mention that rate increases frequently are the result of bad data used for original pricing. I'd imagine data points improved significantly.
FWIW - we know a number of folks who have known future pricing/costs for LTCi including ourselves. There have been a number of posts on Bogleheads where others have stated the same.
"we did NOT say, we will self-insure, we mentioned self-fund."sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:35 amGood points Mike ..MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:11 amThere are fair and really good points here. Nothing I say below should detract from that.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
A few thoughts on self-funding:
The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:
Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.
That’s it.
That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.
..
Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
However, the statement that "a LTC decision lies in wait for MOST of us" seems an exaggeration. You are the expert here, but really, more than 50% of the population will end up needing LTC?
Beyond that, it will only be a small subset of those people who meet the 2 of 6 ADL's required to qualify for benefits under most policies or have dementia at a level that rises to "severe cognitive impairment". And for those who do, by the time they get there they may well be near the very end of their lives and therefore unlikely to get a lot of value out of all the premiums they've paid.
Sure, there are those who have a stoke or get early onset Alzheimers. But they are very much the exception and not the norm.
This is where I struggle with the decision (the value proposition). Especially for someone who has the resources to self-insure...
We simply segregate "LTC need (if that)" from managing "money" aspect.
As for other references by WoW2012 -- do we NOT want to pay for Medicare Part-B etc .. those are STRICTLY "irrelevant" to this LTCi discussion (in as much as: your AIG reference -- instead of skipping over highly-relevant Penn & American LTC carrier fiasco).
Also: in-regards to what's-said by WoW2012 "The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:" \\\
we did NOT say, we will self-insure, we mentioned self-fund. With approximately 60% loss ratio (someone post the reference) on LTCi policies -- basically, at-best 60% is going towards care + expenses" and prolly 40% is FAT-profit (and to manage "risk" at pool/aggregate level). We also do not want to "separate" our hard-earned money - with 40%+ overhead ..
We simply have a habit of managing our money, the "BH-way" -- don't need asset managers, nor Insurance Co., managing our money at 40% overheads ..
Thank you !!WoodSpinner wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:49 amHere is a thread that I started around my policy and its increase….smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:55 amAgreed- it is always good to know as much as you can even about past policies. There have been other posts where folks gave more detail on their policies and increases over time - unfortunately I do not have that link handy.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:43 am"I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen."Freefun wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:39 amI don't understand the articles you cited.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 am
Independent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
In one article it cites a rate increase from a policy in 2004.
In another, it mentions rate increases with no mention of when the policies originated.
I didn't see anyone say in this thread that rate increases can't or don't happen, rather that policies originating now reflect necessary price increases. Even the articles you cite seem to back this up, since they mention that rate increases frequently are the result of bad data used for original pricing. I'd imagine data points improved significantly.
FWIW - we know a number of folks who have known future pricing/costs for LTCi including ourselves. There have been a number of posts on Bogleheads where others have stated the same.
viewtopic.php?t=355551
WoodSpinner
Thanks for your comment - you sure took care of your clients; I am guessing it is for profit, not charity ..Silk McCue wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:41 amYou clearly have an axe to grind. That comment is completely off the wall and distorts the comment regarding “ and/or those loved ones responsible for the care recipient)”.
I owned a Private Duty Home Health Agency taking care of the elderly in their homes and in facilities. I can tell you that the family members often carry a heavy burden in trying to take care of their loved ones.
Cheers
sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 6:59 amIndependent sources beg to differ:
Long-Term Care Insurance: Higher Premiums for Shrinking Benefits:
https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/60 ... g-benefits
Regulators across nation warn of this negative effect too (Sep 9, 2022):
"..another round of rate hikes for long-term care insurance"
.. in line for double- or triple-digit percentage jumps in bills for their long-term care insurance.."
https://richmond.com/news/state-and-reg ... 91816.html
"..premium increases of 80% and even more than 100% are not uncommon.." (Nov 2022)
Now, given how often premiums are raising (and by how much!) and worse-yet RBO to top it off -- NAIC is proposing guidelines/regulations - around how to "announce" such rate hikes (Premium Increase Communication ie., don't have sudden heart-attack, but smart-bleed after seeing such notices)
https://content.naic.org/sites/default/ ... anners.pdf
Got any neutral sites/sources to refer the "prices" are FIXED for good -- because my google research indicates otherwise.
Penn Treaty ignored LTC insurance industry standards.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:16 amThis is STRICT "mis-direction" quote'ing incoherent data-point, the above got nothing to do with failed LTCi insurers/re-insurers ..WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:39 amWhen AIG needed a bailout in the fall of 2008, it was NOT the AIG insurance companies that went "belly up". It was the non-regulated part of the company that sold non-regulated credit default swaps that went "belly up". AIG ended up selling many of its insurance companies (which were all very profitable) in order to pay back to the government all of the "bailout money" plus a profit of about $22 billion.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100397698
Care to enlighten about "Penn Treaty" and "American Network" much ?
Circumstances which led to the insolvency of Penn Treaty among others ?
sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:26 am Last time a bud of mine walked into a shady used-car dealership., the salesperson (cum-owner) showed one clunker - and said, that is such a great car - infact was owned by his brother-in-law ; and when bud walked towards another car - "was owned by his brother-in-law" dialogue came-by once again.
Then, I told my bud - either the salesman was a bit shady, or that he possibly got "too many brother-in-laws" problem ..
Sorry - we don't find love on the Net, nor try to find love from "insurance" folks ..WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 am
Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke...
..
(and/or those loved ones responsible for the care recipient) ..
Would, or how would, one have known about such failures apriori !? That was the point I earlier raised about - lack of standards and nationwide/uniform regulation (or the lack thereof)WoW2012 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:31 amPenn Treaty ignored LTC insurance industry standards.sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:16 amThis is STRICT "mis-direction" quote'ing incoherent data-point, the above got nothing to do with failed LTCi insurers/re-insurers ..WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:39 amWhen AIG needed a bailout in the fall of 2008, it was NOT the AIG insurance companies that went "belly up". It was the non-regulated part of the company that sold non-regulated credit default swaps that went "belly up". AIG ended up selling many of its insurance companies (which were all very profitable) in order to pay back to the government all of the "bailout money" plus a profit of about $22 billion.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100397698
Care to enlighten about "Penn Treaty" and "American Network" much ?
Circumstances which led to the insolvency of Penn Treaty among others ?
Penn Treaty sold policies that ignored federal guidelines.
To qualify for benefits under Penn Treaty's policy, a claimant only needed to require assistance with 2 of 6 Instrumental Activities of Daily Living (IADL's). See charts below.
https://app.box.com/s/slsaz2lx0cekxv7qrs1uk4gj7q7yuwbm
https://app.box.com/s/obds41t4p4ha8lrfga6yspcl7sr0imzl
AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 7:34 amAgree. We need more informed information about this vital and opaque subject, not less (as long as they aren’t soliciting).
I was told that taking the larger daily amount but not opting for inflation protection would keep rate increases more stable and I could always accept the future purchase option to keep up with inflation instead. Any merit to this?
According to the NAIC, there are a little over 170 different insurance companies that have sold long-term care insurance over the years. You can read about the claims experience of the 100 largest on the
Artful Dodger wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:48 amExcellent post.WoW2012 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2023 11:55 amsc9182 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:15 am we be just happy to self-take-care/self-fund LTC/old-age needs to the best of our ability/financial-ability. Nope - we don't self-insure., we intend to self-fund ..
** we respect whoever buys LTCi, depending on their finances/budgets or Models they have. We are just portraying our mental model, developing (or lack of) landscape, and financial handling of such (and many more additional) needs.
A few thoughts on self-funding:
The WORST way to self-insure for long-term care is to:
Tell yourself
you’re going to
self-insure for
long-term care.
That’s it.
That’s the worst way to self-insure. Many people tell themselves and only themselves their “plan”. They never have a meaningful discussion with the people who mean the most to them.
Here’s something many people don't think about:
When you need care, you won’t be the one making the decisions anymore.
When your health has been compromised and you need help with basic, daily tasks, the people you’ve invited into your life, your dearest loved ones, will be responsible for your care and safety.
They’ll be the ones making the decisions.
If you’ve never shared your plans to self-insure with them, how do you know they will fulfill your wishes? Keep in mind:
Planning for long-term care is not planning for your death.
Planning for long-term care is planning for your quality of life
(should you ever need daily assistance).
Planning for long-term care is planning for your loved ones’ quality of life (should you ever need daily assistance).
Long-term care planning is not about “you” it's about “them” (your loved ones). The purpose of planning for long-term care is to minimize the negative consequences a long-term care event would have on your family's physical, emotional, and financial well-being.
Not everyone can purchase long-term care insurance. You may not be healthy enough to purchase a policy. You should still make a plan. Making a plan for long-term care requires some effort, some research and some serious discussions with those you love and who love you.
Your long-term care plan should answer questions like:
If you can stay at home, who will provide the hands-on care? Who will manage the care? If you can’t stay home, where will you go?
Approximately, how much will your care cost per month? Worst case scenario? Best case scenario?
How will the care be paid for? Income sources? Assets?
Who will be the durable power of attorney and handle the finances?
Who will be the healthcare surrogate and handle healthcare decisions?
Are the advance healthcare directives in place?
Keep in mind, you don’t know when you may need care or how long you may need care. You can’t assume you’ll need only $1X to pay for your care. Your care may cost $2X or $3X. We all expected my (first) father-in-law to die within a year after he had his stroke. He lived seven and a half years after the stroke. We expected his care to cost $1X. It cost $5X, which, in his case, was everything they had ever saved. He spent the last two and a half years of his life on Medicaid.
Therefore, you must make a list of your assets and prioritize them in the order in which they should be liquidated to pay for your care.
Make sure your loved ones understand and are in agreement with the strategy (especially your spouse/partner, if applicable). If you don’t make it clear to your loved ones that you want them to spend the assets to pay for your care, they may decide to sacrifice their own health/career/family to try to "save the 401(k)".
Regardless of when it's addressed, a Long Term Care decision lies in wait for most of us. Better to deal with it sooner, when you have more options, rather than later when it’s a crisis.
Excellent points!MikeG62 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:11 am
There are fair and really good points here. Nothing I say below should detract from that.
However, the statement that "a LTC decision lies in wait for MOST of us" seems an exaggeration. You are the expert here, but really, more than 50% of the population will end up needing LTC?
Beyond that, it will only be a small subset of those people who meet the 2 of 6 ADL's required to qualify for benefits under most policies or have dementia at a level that rises to "severe cognitive impairment". And for those who do, by the time they get there they may well be near the very end of their lives and therefore unlikely to get a lot of value out of all the premiums they've paid.
Sure, there are those who have a stoke or get early onset Alzheimers. But they are very much the exception and not the norm.
This is where I struggle with the decision (the value proposition). Especially for someone who has the resources to self-insure...
Similar here: NY, over ten years ago, good insurer, group policy.ResearchMed wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:13 pm
Heh. We have no way to send you the bill!
Same question for all the states you mentioned and also MA.
I assume there's no way to capture that partnership later?
And "later", one wouldn't still qualify for coverage, as aging sets in, etc.
Thanks very much!
RM
sc9: ...how would, one have known about such failures apriori !?sc9182 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:39 amWould, or how would, one have known about such failures apriori !? That was the point I earlier raised about - lack of standards and nationwide/uniform regulation (or the lack thereof)WoW2012 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:31 am
Penn Treaty ignored LTC insurance industry standards.
Penn Treaty sold policies that ignored federal guidelines.
To qualify for benefits under Penn Treaty's policy, a claimant only needed to require assistance with 2 of 6 Instrumental Activities of Daily Living (IADL's). See charts below.
https://app.box.com/s/slsaz2lx0cekxv7qrs1uk4gj7q7yuwbm
https://app.box.com/s/obds41t4p4ha8lrfga6yspcl7sr0imzl
Is there any LTC insurance failure victim fund "pre-funded" by "then" LTC market providers ? Let us know ..
Your policy is great.