Long Term Care Insurance

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WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

CloseEnough wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:36 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am
Consider, as well, the pool of dollars one might accumulate to pay for one's possible LTC costs by investing the premiums that would be paid under a LTCi policy. In addition, one should also consider the tax benefit that would likely arise (current tax rules) from paying for LTC costs out of pocket (perhaps shielding a large portion of one's RMD's and SS and passive income from any income tax).

It's for these reasons that, after being approved for a LTC policy this month, I choose not to move forward with the policy. Lastly, I would add that we are in the fortunate position of being able to self-fund any LTC we might reasonably need and that factored into our decision as well.
Sounds like you have done your due diligence, strong analysis and reached a good decision. And, you haven't even mentioned the risk that the insurance company won't be there 25-30 years from now when you make claims. Plus, add to that the possibility that the insurance company does not easily pay the claims, and that someone else has to fight that battle. And, the possibility of increases in premiums over the life of the policy. I reached the same conclusion, even without checking what policy might be available to me. Although in my case I am sure my negative bias (which I recognize!) toward insurance in general impacted my decision process. If you are fortunate enough to self-fund this risk, it is much more likely to be a better decision. And, if you are not, the cost of the insurance is a huge drag on your finances, often times not worth it either.
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
Chardo
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:16 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Chardo »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
CloseEnough wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:36 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am
Consider, as well, the pool of dollars one might accumulate to pay for one's possible LTC costs by investing the premiums that would be paid under a LTCi policy. In addition, one should also consider the tax benefit that would likely arise (current tax rules) from paying for LTC costs out of pocket (perhaps shielding a large portion of one's RMD's and SS and passive income from any income tax).

It's for these reasons that, after being approved for a LTC policy this month, I choose not to move forward with the policy. Lastly, I would add that we are in the fortunate position of being able to self-fund any LTC we might reasonably need and that factored into our decision as well.
Sounds like you have done your due diligence, strong analysis and reached a good decision. And, you haven't even mentioned the risk that the insurance company won't be there 25-30 years from now when you make claims. Plus, add to that the possibility that the insurance company does not easily pay the claims, and that someone else has to fight that battle. And, the possibility of increases in premiums over the life of the policy. I reached the same conclusion, even without checking what policy might be available to me. Although in my case I am sure my negative bias (which I recognize!) toward insurance in general impacted my decision process. If you are fortunate enough to self-fund this risk, it is much more likely to be a better decision. And, if you are not, the cost of the insurance is a huge drag on your finances, often times not worth it either.
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
Ask anyone in a nursing home if they wished they had insurance. And ask their middle aged kids.

Same thing for life insurance. If you don't think you need it, try dying once without it.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

Chardo wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:11 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
CloseEnough wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:36 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am
Consider, as well, the pool of dollars one might accumulate to pay for one's possible LTC costs by investing the premiums that would be paid under a LTCi policy. In addition, one should also consider the tax benefit that would likely arise (current tax rules) from paying for LTC costs out of pocket (perhaps shielding a large portion of one's RMD's and SS and passive income from any income tax).

It's for these reasons that, after being approved for a LTC policy this month, I choose not to move forward with the policy. Lastly, I would add that we are in the fortunate position of being able to self-fund any LTC we might reasonably need and that factored into our decision as well.
Sounds like you have done your due diligence, strong analysis and reached a good decision. And, you haven't even mentioned the risk that the insurance company won't be there 25-30 years from now when you make claims. Plus, add to that the possibility that the insurance company does not easily pay the claims, and that someone else has to fight that battle. And, the possibility of increases in premiums over the life of the policy. I reached the same conclusion, even without checking what policy might be available to me. Although in my case I am sure my negative bias (which I recognize!) toward insurance in general impacted my decision process. If you are fortunate enough to self-fund this risk, it is much more likely to be a better decision. And, if you are not, the cost of the insurance is a huge drag on your finances, often times not worth it either.
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
Ask anyone in a nursing home if they wished they had insurance. And ask their middle aged kids.

Same thing for life insurance. If you don't think you need it, try dying once without it.
"And ask their middle aged kids."
Yeah - I can really relate to this one, wish it had not been the case.
Chardo
Posts: 1359
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:16 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Chardo »

smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:13 am
Chardo wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:11 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
CloseEnough wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:36 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am
Consider, as well, the pool of dollars one might accumulate to pay for one's possible LTC costs by investing the premiums that would be paid under a LTCi policy. In addition, one should also consider the tax benefit that would likely arise (current tax rules) from paying for LTC costs out of pocket (perhaps shielding a large portion of one's RMD's and SS and passive income from any income tax).

It's for these reasons that, after being approved for a LTC policy this month, I choose not to move forward with the policy. Lastly, I would add that we are in the fortunate position of being able to self-fund any LTC we might reasonably need and that factored into our decision as well.
Sounds like you have done your due diligence, strong analysis and reached a good decision. And, you haven't even mentioned the risk that the insurance company won't be there 25-30 years from now when you make claims. Plus, add to that the possibility that the insurance company does not easily pay the claims, and that someone else has to fight that battle. And, the possibility of increases in premiums over the life of the policy. I reached the same conclusion, even without checking what policy might be available to me. Although in my case I am sure my negative bias (which I recognize!) toward insurance in general impacted my decision process. If you are fortunate enough to self-fund this risk, it is much more likely to be a better decision. And, if you are not, the cost of the insurance is a huge drag on your finances, often times not worth it either.
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
Ask anyone in a nursing home if they wished they had insurance. And ask their middle aged kids.

Same thing for life insurance. If you don't think you need it, try dying once without it.
"And ask their middle aged kids."
Yeah - I can really relate to this one, wish it had not been the case.
This is something most people don't realize. It's the middle aged kids who really pay for long term care. Either directly from their pockets, or by dwindled inheritance.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

Chardo wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:19 am
smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:13 am
Chardo wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:11 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
CloseEnough wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:36 am

Sounds like you have done your due diligence, strong analysis and reached a good decision. And, you haven't even mentioned the risk that the insurance company won't be there 25-30 years from now when you make claims. Plus, add to that the possibility that the insurance company does not easily pay the claims, and that someone else has to fight that battle. And, the possibility of increases in premiums over the life of the policy. I reached the same conclusion, even without checking what policy might be available to me. Although in my case I am sure my negative bias (which I recognize!) toward insurance in general impacted my decision process. If you are fortunate enough to self-fund this risk, it is much more likely to be a better decision. And, if you are not, the cost of the insurance is a huge drag on your finances, often times not worth it either.
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
Ask anyone in a nursing home if they wished they had insurance. And ask their middle aged kids.

Same thing for life insurance. If you don't think you need it, try dying once without it.
"And ask their middle aged kids."
Yeah - I can really relate to this one, wish it had not been the case.
This is something most people don't realize. It's the middle aged kids who really pay for long term care. Either directly from their pockets, or by dwindled inheritance.
And/or by spending a lot of time and emotions attempting to support family members that should have better tools, care, and attention than they can provide. Many hours turned into detailed physical work and unusually stressful circumstances which could have been 'spent' much better.
Wannaretireearly
Posts: 4880
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Wannaretireearly »

I admit I have not had the time to read the entire thread.

I want to look at long term care insurance for my mom first. She turns 69 soon. We are in NorCal. Who can we talk to? Looking for an agent to really discuss this. Thanks
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ | “How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
mrc
Posts: 1908
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by mrc »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
If you can't afford either "drag," zero. If you can't qualify for a current policy, zero. If you have some funds, but not enough to pay for steadily-increasing premiums ad infinitum, what happens when you run short of funds for future premiums? If you can't afford to pay for your care, what difference does it make? Medicaid kicks in and that's that.

The initial cost of the policy is only one consideration. If only it were just that simple. Concerns: Actually qualifying for benefits, future premium increases, ever needing benefits, solvency of the carrier, benefit duration, daily benefit amount, the future daily cost of LTC, on and on.

I don't see the question of buying LTCi as black-and-white as many others seem to, especially salesmen. There are too darn many unknowns.

My wife and I had LTCi for about 15 years, until a couple years ago, when Genworth (nee GE) started rapidly raising premiums, and the solvency of the LTC industry was in question. My state's coverage guarantee of LTC was $300K, after that, if the company couldn't pay benefits, we were out of luck. We could certainly cover the first $300K, and after that, no state help was available if Genworth (or any other carrier) tanked.

We don't regret taking out our policy during the time in which we were covered. It protected one of us from financial ruin should the other be incapacitated at an earlier age (e.g., via stroke or at-fault accident, and not die) without any coverage.

So, I don't believe the question here is: If you can't afford the premiums, can you afford the cost of care? The questions should be: Do you have the funds to pay for premiums in the long term? Do you believe the industry will remain solvent? Does your state provide an adequate coverage guarantee should your carrier default? Is there someone to help you (or your spouse) qualify for benefits? Are the benefits offered, or that you can afford enough? Do you understand Medicaid rules for LTC? And many others. It's just not: cost of insurance vs cost of 100% cost of LTC.
By the time you know enough to choose a good financial adviser, you don't need one. | bogleheads.org is my advisor: The ER is 0.0% and the advice always solid.
iim7V7IM7
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by iim7V7IM7 »

In 2022 at age 61, we decided it was a wise move to take out some LTC Insurance for both of us. Fully covering worst case scenarios (e.g., fully paying the future cost of a long term stay at skilled nursing home for one or both of us) was not affordable for us. In today’s dollars that is a $300-$400/day in the area of the country we will likely be. The inflation rate driving future costs and duration of stay unknown. The benefit What was affordable was partially insuring for the worst case (lower likelihood) and fully insuring for assisted living / home care (higher probability). We were able to be underwritten into a policy with NGL that provides:

Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs. This seemed for us, the compromise to have some insurance. Time will tell regarding policy price increases, but hopefully companies today are better at underwriting policies and some of the industry reforms will encourage stabilization of prices.

Time will tell…
MikeG62
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Hello Mike,
Let's compare strategies for dealing with long term care a bit here. Not sure what the best choice is for anyone specific, but each plan will have its own pros and cons so let's tray and list them as best we can.

"Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?"
How much should someone reserve for LTC if self-insuring? Where do you safely secure those funds? How old should you be before 'releasing' those funds?

"How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000."
What are you using for a price? How much coverage? Where wuld you invest these funds? at what age(s) will each spouse require LTC if at all?

"And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?"
Not the best example but one that is close in my memory is my mother. She had cancer when I was fairly young, required operations and chemo for most of a year, which required long term care for better part of a year, then she had a 7-1/2 remission. In that 7-1/2 years she had great times and was at our wedding and childbirth and numerous vacations with our daughter.
I have more than half a dozen other experiences with LTC within our family and/or friends and each one is quite different than one would think.
FWIW - none of them had any LTCi.
For your own modeling and plans please pick your examples and numbers carefully and do what is best for your plan.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.

$50,000 is not the average benefits received by each claimant. It's approx. the average per claimant per year.
Many claimants receive benefits for more than one year.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

mrc wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:28 am
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:56 am
Some myths never die.

BTW, if the cost of an insurance policy is a drag on one's finances, what kind of a drag would it be to one's finances to fund 100% of the cost of long-term care??
If you can't afford either "drag," zero. If you can't qualify for a current policy, zero. If you have some funds, but not enough to pay for steadily-increasing premiums ad infinitum, what happens when you run short of funds for future premiums? If you can't afford to pay for your care, what difference does it make? Medicaid kicks in and that's that.

The initial cost of the policy is only one consideration. If only it were just that simple. Concerns: Actually qualifying for benefits, future premium increases, ever needing benefits, solvency of the carrier, benefit duration, daily benefit amount, the future daily cost of LTC, on and on.

I don't see the question of buying LTCi as black-and-white as many others seem to, especially salesmen. There are too darn many unknowns.

My wife and I had LTCi for about 15 years, until a couple years ago, when Genworth (nee GE) started rapidly raising premiums, and the solvency of the LTC industry was in question. My state's coverage guarantee of LTC was $300K, after that, if the company couldn't pay benefits, we were out of luck. We could certainly cover the first $300K, and after that, no state help was available if Genworth (or any other carrier) tanked.

We don't regret taking out our policy during the time in which we were covered. It protected one of us from financial ruin should the other be incapacitated at an earlier age (e.g., via stroke or at-fault accident, and not die) without any coverage.

So, I don't believe the question here is: If you can't afford the premiums, can you afford the cost of care? The questions should be: Do you have the funds to pay for premiums in the long term? Do you believe the industry will remain solvent? Does your state provide an adequate coverage guarantee should your carrier default? Is there someone to help you (or your spouse) qualify for benefits? Are the benefits offered, or that you can afford enough? Do you understand Medicaid rules for LTC? And many others. It's just not: cost of insurance vs cost of 100% cost of LTC.
"The initial cost of the policy is only one consideration. If only it were just that simple. Concerns: Actually qualifying for benefits, future premium increases, ever needing benefits, solvency of the carrier, benefit duration, daily benefit amount, the future daily cost of LTC, on and on."
I agree with many of your concerns but most of these are similar concerns with any and all financial decisions and some of these we could mitigate.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
How do you justify buying any type of insurance?
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
MikeG62
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:04 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
$50,000 is not the average benefits received by each claimant. It's approx. the average per claimant per year.
I understand that. Sorry I was not clear. I was simply trying to point out that on average the claimants in 2022 would not have come close to recovering the costs they put into their LTCi premiums. The point was to get people thinking how long they might need to be drawing benefits before they recover their costs. More importantly, given the high bar to qualify for benefits (2 of 6 ADL's or severe cognitive impairment), what is the likelihood one would receive benefits for a long enough period to come out materially ahead buying a LTCi policy? Sure there are the outliers - those who qualify for benefits for years and years. There are also lots and lots of people who never claim any benefits under their policies or claim very little benefits.
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:04 pm Many claimants receive benefits for more than one year.
True, but many others receive benefits for less than one year. What about all the people who pour money into these premiums and never need LTC and/or never get any benefits paid out of their policies?
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:07 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
How do you justify buying any type of insurance?
[Unnecessary comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just because something can be insured does not mean it should be insured. Just run a google search on the crazy things people can insure.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

MikeG62 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:59 am [Unnecessary comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

Just because something can be insured does not mean it should be insured. Just run a google search on the crazy things people can insure.
Straw man fallacy [Unnecessary comment removed by admin LadyGeek].
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
sc9182
Posts: 2179
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:43 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by sc9182 »

I don’t see any “necessary” argumentative points in earlier response by Mike.

We are as true BH’ers — debating fitment of LTCi policies for self/ fellow BH’ers.

We’ve personally seen two/three folks “abandoning” their LTCi policies - after nearly contributing thru their noses (and doubling/tripling of premiums!) — and simply given-up — a) not able to afford continued increased premiums b) not seeing value of its limited benefits c) life/old-age has higher-priority then “current” needs than “paying-thru-nose for and simply awaiting” strict LTCi qualification.

Like we mentioned earlier - we intend to handle LTC needs with HSA and Trad IRA monies in future .. and happy to save/bag (or incur) all the monies to ourselves .. we don’t need pie-in-the-sky promises of LTCi insurance..

Then again - it’s personal finance..
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:00 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Hello Mike,
Let's compare strategies for dealing with long term care a bit here. Not sure what the best choice is for anyone specific, but each plan will have its own pros and cons so let's tray and list them as best we can.

"Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?"
How much should someone reserve for LTC if self-insuring? Where do you safely secure those funds? How old should you be before 'releasing' those funds?

"How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000."
What are you using for a price? How much coverage? Where wuld you invest these funds? at what age(s) will each spouse require LTC if at all?

"And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?"
Not the best example but one that is close in my memory is my mother. She had cancer when I was fairly young, required operations and chemo for most of a year, which required long term care for better part of a year, then she had a 7-1/2 remission. In that 7-1/2 years she had great times and was at our wedding and childbirth and numerous vacations with our daughter.
I have more than half a dozen other experiences with LTC within our family and/or friends and each one is quite different than one would think.
FWIW - none of them had any LTCi.
For your own modeling and plans please pick your examples and numbers carefully and do what is best for your plan.
Hello Mike,
Can we compare our thoughts on the choices and resultant pros and cons on the above?
MikeG62
Posts: 5065
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:20 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MikeG62 »

smitcat wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:00 am
smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:00 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am
MikeG62 wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:16 am Keep in mind that needing some amount of LTC is not necessarily the same thing as qualifying for benefits under one of these LTCi policies.

It is very easy to say, "well, you only need to meet two of six ADL's", but one needs to look at the six ADL's and then ask themselves generally speaking how far gone would I be at that point and how long might I continue to live in that condition?
And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Hello Mike,
Let's compare strategies for dealing with long term care a bit here. Not sure what the best choice is for anyone specific, but each plan will have its own pros and cons so let's tray and list them as best we can.

"Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?"
How much should someone reserve for LTC if self-insuring? Where do you safely secure those funds? How old should you be before 'releasing' those funds?

"How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000."
What are you using for a price? How much coverage? Where wuld you invest these funds? at what age(s) will each spouse require LTC if at all?

"And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?"
Not the best example but one that is close in my memory is my mother. She had cancer when I was fairly young, required operations and chemo for most of a year, which required long term care for better part of a year, then she had a 7-1/2 remission. In that 7-1/2 years she had great times and was at our wedding and childbirth and numerous vacations with our daughter.
I have more than half a dozen other experiences with LTC within our family and/or friends and each one is quite different than one would think.
FWIW - none of them had any LTCi.
For your own modeling and plans please pick your examples and numbers carefully and do what is best for your plan.
Hello Mike,
Can we compare our thoughts on the choices and resultant pros and cons on the above?
Hello smitcat,

I'd simply refer you back to a couple of posts above. One is Wow2012's post of Mon March 6 at 6:11pm (in response to my post earlier that same day) and the second is my post of Wed Mar 22, 2023 at 11:16 am. The points I made in these two posts are just facts. Diving into detailed assumptions (rates of return on invested premiums and marginal tax rates - particularly when my marginal rate is likely to be different from yours) with all of the other variables involved here (when, if ever, might I meet the tripwires (two of six ADL's or severe cognitive impairment) to begin to receive benefits under the LTCi plan, and therefore, how long will the premiums remain invested before out of pocket LTC costs begin that would otherwise be covered by LTCi and how long will those costs go on for before I were to pass on), is in my opinion, an exercise destined to result in losing sight of the forest for the trees. You can feel free to do it, but I see no need to lay out a model here and get into a debate with you. In fact, I won't. So please stop asking.

As Wow2012 has correctly said, the key here is having a LTC "plan" in place. Some may feel they need LTCi as part of their plan and others may not. After having applied (and been approved) for LTCi this year and ultimately deciding (after much thought and consideration) to pass on it (for the reasons I have already articulated numerous times), I fall into the latter camp.
Real Knowledge Comes Only From Experience
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

MikeG62 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:57 am
smitcat wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:00 am
smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:00 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am

And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Hello Mike,
Let's compare strategies for dealing with long term care a bit here. Not sure what the best choice is for anyone specific, but each plan will have its own pros and cons so let's tray and list them as best we can.

"Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?"
How much should someone reserve for LTC if self-insuring? Where do you safely secure those funds? How old should you be before 'releasing' those funds?

"How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000."
What are you using for a price? How much coverage? Where wuld you invest these funds? at what age(s) will each spouse require LTC if at all?

"And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?"
Not the best example but one that is close in my memory is my mother. She had cancer when I was fairly young, required operations and chemo for most of a year, which required long term care for better part of a year, then she had a 7-1/2 remission. In that 7-1/2 years she had great times and was at our wedding and childbirth and numerous vacations with our daughter.
I have more than half a dozen other experiences with LTC within our family and/or friends and each one is quite different than one would think.
FWIW - none of them had any LTCi.
For your own modeling and plans please pick your examples and numbers carefully and do what is best for your plan.
Hello Mike,
Can we compare our thoughts on the choices and resultant pros and cons on the above?
Hello smitcat,

I'd simply refer you back to a couple of posts above. One is Wow2012's post of Mon March 6 at 6:11pm (in response to my post earlier that same day) and the second is my post of Wed Mar 22, 2023 at 11:16 am. The points I made in these two posts are just facts. Diving into detailed assumptions (rates of return on invested premiums and marginal tax rates - particularly when my marginal rate is likely to be different from yours) with all of the other variables involved here (when, if ever, might I meet the tripwires (two of six ADL's or severe cognitive impairment) to begin to receive benefits under the LTCi plan, and therefore, how long will the premiums remain invested before out of pocket LTC costs begin that would otherwise be covered by LTCi and how long will those costs go on for before I were to pass on), is in my opinion, an exercise destined to result in losing sight of the forest for the trees. You can feel free to do it, but I see no need to lay out a model here and get into a debate with you. In fact, I won't. So please stop asking.

As Wow2012 has correctly said, the key here is having a LTC "plan" in place. Some may feel they need LTCi as part of their plan and others may not. After having applied (and been approved) for LTCi this year and ultimately deciding (after much thought and consideration) to pass on it (for the reasons I have already articulated numerous times), I fall into the latter camp.
"You can feel free to do it, but I see no need to lay out a model here and get into a debate with you. In fact, I won't. So please stop asking."
Then we are destined to not learn how the variables in each person's situation will affect optimized decisions - both pro and con for each.

"Some may feel they need LTCi as part of their plan and others may not."
It would be great if folks could jointly discuss the pro's and con's so they become more clearly understood.
hoops777
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Behind the 3 point line

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by hoops777 »

MikeG62 wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:57 am
smitcat wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:00 am
smitcat wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:00 pm
MikeG62 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:12 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:53 am

And yet, this year, over 300,000 LTCi policyholders will receive over $15 billion in long-term care insurance benefits.
Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?

How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000.

And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?

The insurance companies have a good feel for this and price the policies accordingly. If on average it worked to the benefit of the insured, the insurance companies either would not offer the insurance or they would charge more for it.
Hello Mike,
Let's compare strategies for dealing with long term care a bit here. Not sure what the best choice is for anyone specific, but each plan will have its own pros and cons so let's tray and list them as best we can.

"Query how much these policyholders paid into their LTCi policies over the years and how that amount compares to the average benefit baked into the figures above ($50,000)?"
How much should someone reserve for LTC if self-insuring? Where do you safely secure those funds? How old should you be before 'releasing' those funds?

"How much might they have had available to pay for LTC costs had they instead invested the premiums over those many years (likely decades)? Very likely multiple times more than $50,000."
What are you using for a price? How much coverage? Where wuld you invest these funds? at what age(s) will each spouse require LTC if at all?

"And none of this goes to my last point above - how long might one expect to live in the condition where they meet the threshold for receiving benefits?"
Not the best example but one that is close in my memory is my mother. She had cancer when I was fairly young, required operations and chemo for most of a year, which required long term care for better part of a year, then she had a 7-1/2 remission. In that 7-1/2 years she had great times and was at our wedding and childbirth and numerous vacations with our daughter.
I have more than half a dozen other experiences with LTC within our family and/or friends and each one is quite different than one would think.
FWIW - none of them had any LTCi.
For your own modeling and plans please pick your examples and numbers carefully and do what is best for your plan.
Hello Mike,
Can we compare our thoughts on the choices and resultant pros and cons on the above?
Hello smitcat,

I'd simply refer you back to a couple of posts above. One is Wow2012's post of Mon March 6 at 6:11pm (in response to my post earlier that same day) and the second is my post of Wed Mar 22, 2023 at 11:16 am. The points I made in these two posts are just facts. Diving into detailed assumptions (rates of return on invested premiums and marginal tax rates - particularly when my marginal rate is likely to be different from yours) with all of the other variables involved here (when, if ever, might I meet the tripwires (two of six ADL's or severe cognitive impairment) to begin to receive benefits under the LTCi plan, and therefore, how long will the premiums remain invested before out of pocket LTC costs begin that would otherwise be covered by LTCi and how long will those costs go on for before I were to pass on), is in my opinion, an exercise destined to result in losing sight of the forest for the trees. You can feel free to do it, but I see no need to lay out a model here and get into a debate with you. In fact, I won't. So please stop asking.

As Wow2012 has correctly said, the key here is having a LTC "plan" in place. Some may feel they need LTCi as part of their plan and others may not. After having applied (and been approved) for LTCi this year and ultimately deciding (after much thought and consideration) to pass on it (for the reasons I have already articulated numerous times), I fall into the latter camp.
My brother had a Genworth policy he paid about 20K into and received over $300,000 in benefits before passing.
He was able to stay in his home for about 4 years with home care. Without the policy he would have been in some hellish Medi Cal facility as he passed away pretty much broke.

You can always keep assuming your investments are going to do great and pay for your LTC, but what if you hit a bad period like 2000 to 2010 or so?
You have no idea what the market is going to do over the next 10 years.

If you have 3 or 4 million it doesn’t matter. The people that are less fortunate and want to avoid a facility have a difficult decision.
Like everything else it is a personal, individual choice based on what you have and desire if it happens to you.

The other issue is you see things differently when you are young and healthy.
At 71 and 73 we realize a week from now one of us could be in bad shape, even though we are currently doing very well.
I just paid our combined premium of about $4900 and hated writing the check, but am happy we have it for another year.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.
Wrench
Posts: 1055
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:21 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Wrench »

Christine Benz at Morningstar shares some interesting stats:
100 Must-Know Statistics About Long-Term Care: 2023 Edition
https://www.morningstar.com/articles/11 ... -term-care

Wrench
CloseEnough
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:34 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by CloseEnough »

This thread may be of interest to anyone weighing the pros and cons of LTCi.

viewtopic.php?t=402030&sid=c21552fc4241 ... 000831808d
VanGar+Goyle
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat May 29, 2021 1:31 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:08 pm Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs.
At $200 / day for 3 years you may get $219,000, or up to $657,000 plus inflation if all 9 years are used.
As this may be only half your expenses, the question is can you afford to pay $1.3M to self-insure for LTC without insurance?
For some people the is no way, but for others that may be acceptable.
iim7V7IM7
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by iim7V7IM7 »

In short, I believe that we can. The policy will cover 100% of the more likely expenses associated with assisted living and home care. For skilled nursing care, depending on where we end up in the country should we or one of us need that it will cover 50-60% of those costs. The elimination period and 40-50% will need to be covered by us should we need it, Yes, we typically insure for worst case scenarios, but it was cost prohibitive.

We have enough to perhaps self insure, but having something that we can actualize without the immediate need to liquidate assets which important. We also may at some point be in a continuous care community which also may provide some coverage. This was the right policy for US, not for everyone.
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:14 am
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:08 pm Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs.
At $200 / day for 3 years you may get $219,000, or up to $657,000 plus inflation if all 9 years are used.
As this may be only half your expenses, the question is can you afford to pay $1.3M to self-insure for LTC without insurance?
For some people the is no way, but for others that may be acceptable.
kavm
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by kavm »

iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:46 am In short, I believe that we can. The policy will cover 100% of the more likely expenses associated with assisted living and home care. For skilled nursing care, depending on where we end up in the country should we or one of us need that it will cover 50-60% of those costs. The elimination period and 40-50% will need to be covered by us should we need it, Yes, we typically insure for worst case scenarios, but it was cost prohibitive.

We have enough to perhaps self insure, but having something that we can actualize without the immediate need to liquidate assets which important. We also may at some point be in a continuous care community which also may provide some coverage. This was the right policy for US, not for everyone.
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:14 am
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:08 pm Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs.
At $200 / day for 3 years you may get $219,000, or up to $657,000 plus inflation if all 9 years are used.
As this may be only half your expenses, the question is can you afford to pay $1.3M to self-insure for LTC without insurance?
For some people the is no way, but for others that may be acceptable.
May I ask at what age are you getting this quote? The reason I ask is that we have a CNA policy (cost about $5.5/5.6K per year) that we bought about 8 years ago (2014). Our policies pay (approximately from memory) $410/day max, 10 year benefit term, about $1.6M max. The quote you have is higher than what our policy costs with less than 1/2 the benefits. And I am wondering if you need to shop around further. [PS: Our rates have risen considerably since we bought the policy - and the rate quoted above is what we are paying now.]
iim7V7IM7
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by iim7V7IM7 »

In 2022, we shopped with well known west coast based LTC broker (Scott Olson) who obtained multiple quotes with different daily coverages, terms, inflation riders and elimination periods from 7 different companies. We settled on a policy from National Guardian Life (NGL). Our quotes in 2022 for 61/62 year olds of average health for companies who insure in NJ. As I recall, aside from NGL, we received multiple quotes from Bankers Life, Mutual of Omaha, Nationwide, New York Life, Northwestern Mutual and Thrivent. The NGL policy seemed to be the best value for us.

What age were you in 2014 when you were underwritten and in what state did you live?

As point of reference, I do believe that policy pricing has changed tremendously over the years. Companies are charging more upfront because they understand underwriting these better than they used to because state rate stability regulations make increases to policies difficult. We saw competitive quotes from multiple companies and the type of coverage you have would have cost 5 figures/year in 2022 for people of our age living in NJ.

For example, my 87 year old Mother has a policy that she purchased in the 1990s that is now with Brighthouse Financial. It has a $700/day max, Lifetime Benefit Term, 5% Inflation Rider with a 90 day Elimination Period. She now pays approximately $5k/year for this. The policy when underwritten was about < $2k/year decades ago. I cannot imagine what a policy like this if it could be underwritten would cost today.
kavm wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:32 pm
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:46 am In short, I believe that we can. The policy will cover 100% of the more likely expenses associated with assisted living and home care. For skilled nursing care, depending on where we end up in the country should we or one of us need that it will cover 50-60% of those costs. The elimination period and 40-50% will need to be covered by us should we need it, Yes, we typically insure for worst case scenarios, but it was cost prohibitive.

We have enough to perhaps self insure, but having something that we can actualize without the immediate need to liquidate assets which important. We also may at some point be in a continuous care community which also may provide some coverage. This was the right policy for US, not for everyone.
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:14 am
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:08 pm Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs.
At $200 / day for 3 years you may get $219,000, or up to $657,000 plus inflation if all 9 years are used.
As this may be only half your expenses, the question is can you afford to pay $1.3M to self-insure for LTC without insurance?
For some people the is no way, but for others that may be acceptable.
May I ask at what age are you getting this quote? The reason I ask is that we have a CNA policy (cost about $5.5/5.6K per year) that we bought about 8 years ago (2014). Our policies pay (approximately from memory) $410/day max, 10 year benefit term, about $1.6M max. The quote you have is higher than what our policy costs with less than 1/2 the benefits. And I am wondering if you need to shop around further. [PS: Our rates have risen considerably since we bought the policy - and the rate quoted above is what we are paying now.]
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

kavm wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 6:32 pm
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 11:46 am In short, I believe that we can. The policy will cover 100% of the more likely expenses associated with assisted living and home care. For skilled nursing care, depending on where we end up in the country should we or one of us need that it will cover 50-60% of those costs. The elimination period and 40-50% will need to be covered by us should we need it, Yes, we typically insure for worst case scenarios, but it was cost prohibitive.

We have enough to perhaps self insure, but having something that we can actualize without the immediate need to liquidate assets which important. We also may at some point be in a continuous care community which also may provide some coverage. This was the right policy for US, not for everyone.
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:14 am
iim7V7IM7 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:08 pm Elimination Period: 180 days
Max Daily Benefit: $200/Day
Benefit Term: 3 years each with an additional shared 3 year term
Inflation Rider: 3%/year

The third shared pool is a nice feature. This policy costs about $6,350/year. This fully covers the more likely forms of care and 50-60% of a worst case scenario. The 3% inflation rider provides some level of inflation protection. We will use assets to self insure for the other 40-50% should that occur and elimination period costs.
At $200 / day for 3 years you may get $219,000, or up to $657,000 plus inflation if all 9 years are used.
As this may be only half your expenses, the question is can you afford to pay $1.3M to self-insure for LTC without insurance?
For some people the is no way, but for others that may be acceptable.
May I ask at what age are you getting this quote? The reason I ask is that we have a CNA policy (cost about $5.5/5.6K per year) that we bought about 8 years ago (2014). Our policies pay (approximately from memory) $410/day max, 10 year benefit term, about $1.6M max. The quote you have is higher than what our policy costs with less than 1/2 the benefits. And I am wondering if you need to shop around further. [PS: Our rates have risen considerably since we bought the policy - and the rate quoted above is what we are paying now.]
Depends a lot on when you purchased the policies and what your specific goals are/were. We have somewhat similar policies to yours in some ways, bought about 11 years back, with known fixed fees for the life of the policies.
kavm
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:30 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by kavm »

Thank you! Interesting. The price of our policy has jumped quite a bit since we bought it in 2014. It was done to bring the costs of the policies in line with what the insurance companies were needing to pay out. The amount I listed are was what we are paying now - after multiple rate increases. But, it is possible that our rate increases are limited by the state insurance regulators and our premium lags behind the current market price for equivalent new policy.
User avatar
Jazztonight
Posts: 1339
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: Lake Merritt

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by Jazztonight »

Thanks for all the helpful information on this extensive thread.

I enrolled in the Federal Long Term Care Insurance Program in 2006 (DW was a federal employee), and it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Now? Not so much.

I pondered the value of this insurance year after year, and as the premiums rose I had to decide on paying the increases or "adjust" (e.g. lower) my benefits.

This morning I pulled the plug on this plan. I'll be 77 in a few weeks, and have accrued a "Maximum Lifetime Benefit" of almost $35K.

My thought process in deciding I don't want to continue to pay the increasing premium has as much to do about my current age and life-expectancy as it does about the condition I'd have to be in to even qualify to receive the benefits.

So, if I can qualify and need the benefits, what I have accrued may take care of me and my needs for a good while. Otherwise, I'll just be using my savings and investments to cover my long-term care expenses until I don't need them anymore--one way or the other.

Frankly, I'm happy to be done with it! (DW has decided to continue her coverage, btw.)
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche
ChrisC
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:10 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ChrisC »

Jazztonight wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:02 am Thanks for all the helpful information on this extensive thread.

I enrolled in the Federal Long Term Care Insurance Program in 2006 (DW was a federal employee), and it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Now? Not so much.

I pondered the value of this insurance year after year, and as the premiums rose I had to decide on paying the increases or "adjust" (e.g. lower) my benefits.

This morning I pulled the plug on this plan. I'll be 77 in a few weeks, and have accrued a "Maximum Lifetime Benefit" of almost $35K.

My thought process in deciding I don't want to continue to pay the increasing premium has as much to do about my current age and life-expectancy as it does about the condition I'd have to be in to even qualify to receive the benefits.

So, if I can qualify and need the benefits, what I have accrued may take care of me and my needs for a good while. Otherwise, I'll just be using my savings and investments to cover my long-term care expenses until I don't need them anymore--one way or the other.

Frankly, I'm happy to be done with it! (DW has decided to continue her coverage, btw.)
My current age, a month short of 70; close relatives who needed long term care -- some as few as 6 months and some as long as 11 years; my current health condition (quite good until a few months ago, but nothing placing me on the road for needing long term care); my wanting to ensure my spouse and children don't have to scramble around for financing long term care -- just push the insurance button -- if we need financial coverage: and any insurance payments would preserve additional funds going to my heirs if the policy were called -- for those reasons, we decided to accept the increase in premiums for our FLTCI policies.

We've had our policies since 2003; and probably paid over $65K in premiums (most of which comes from my HSA); and if I never used the policies -- I'd be completely at peace with that situation.

But riddle me this: have you ever met anyone with LTCi who had to use the insurance that was disappointed or regretted having taken out the policy? Perhaps, you seem to think you were flushing money down the toilet by paying for LTCi which you think you'll never use or that if you needed to use it, you'd get sidetracked by eligibility issues or upended by the bogeyman insurance claims denial staff!

I see the decision to pay for reasonable premiums for LTCi -- and the FLTCi program despite 3 rounds of increases since program inception in 2003 is reasonably priced for me -- almost like a Pascal's Wager; I don't really lose anything by paying for the coverage (since I can well afford the premiums) especially it gives me comfort and some peace of mind; but I would gain quite a bit if I had to use the policy for any extended period of time!
bbqguru
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:31 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by bbqguru »

kavm wrote: Tue Apr 11, 2023 9:10 am Thank you! Interesting. The price of our policy has jumped quite a bit since we bought it in 2014. It was done to bring the costs of the policies in line with what the insurance companies were needing to pay out. The amount I listed are was what we are paying now - after multiple rate increases. But, it is possible that our rate increases are limited by the state insurance regulators and our premium lags behind the current market price for equivalent new policy.
You may find that your policy will eventually guarantee to keep the premium level forever.

My wife and I have policies that have had two rate increases since they were issued. This latest increase was around 50%, but they added a rider to the policy guaranteeing that rates would not increase ever again as long as we paid the premium and made no changes to coverage. Since originally buying the policies, my wife has become uninsurable and has a condition that guarantees that she'll be making a claim sooner than later.

We're currently paying around $2400 per year per policy, but we did buy them at a young age. Unlimited benefit, 5% compounding, etc...
katy006
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:34 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by katy006 »

OK, my question for the insurance agent or anyone who knows the answer. I have a parent in assisted living. They are unable to walk but can transfer with the assistance of a lift chair onto a rollator which she sits on and pushes with her right foot. Their left leg is useless. She has avascular necrosis of the left hip, severe DJD of the left knee and severe pitting lymphedema of both legs. She has to have hands on help to bath and clip toe and finger nails. Her other hands on need is with dressing, she requires an aide to put on compression stockings in the morning and remove them in the evening. Her LTC policy requires hands on help with 2 of six ADLs. Would the above example qualify for benefits? She has figured out how to put on pants since at assisted living since their are multiple bars in the bathroom, at home she wasn't able to put on pants and wore house dresses only. She does not have any cognitive impairment.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by WoW2012 »

katy006 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:50 am OK, my question for the insurance agent or anyone who knows the answer. I have a parent in assisted living. They are unable to walk but can transfer with the assistance of a lift chair onto a rollator which she sits on and pushes with her right foot. Their left leg is useless. She has avascular necrosis of the left hip, severe DJD of the left knee and severe pitting lymphedema of both legs. She has to have hands on help to bath and clip toe and finger nails. Her other hands on need is with dressing, she requires an aide to put on compression stockings in the morning and remove them in the evening. Her LTC policy requires hands on help with 2 of six ADLs. Would the above example qualify for benefits? She has figured out how to put on pants since at assisted living since their are multiple bars in the bathroom, at home she wasn't able to put on pants and wore house dresses only. She does not have any cognitive impairment.
File the claim!
She probably could have qualified for benefits many months ago.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by smitcat »

katy006 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:50 am OK, my question for the insurance agent or anyone who knows the answer. I have a parent in assisted living. They are unable to walk but can transfer with the assistance of a lift chair onto a rollator which she sits on and pushes with her right foot. Their left leg is useless. She has avascular necrosis of the left hip, severe DJD of the left knee and severe pitting lymphedema of both legs. She has to have hands on help to bath and clip toe and finger nails. Her other hands on need is with dressing, she requires an aide to put on compression stockings in the morning and remove them in the evening. Her LTC policy requires hands on help with 2 of six ADLs. Would the above example qualify for benefits? She has figured out how to put on pants since at assisted living since their are multiple bars in the bathroom, at home she wasn't able to put on pants and wore house dresses only. She does not have any cognitive impairment.
"have a parent in assisted living."
Every assited living location we are aware of has people who specialize in helping folks get their LTCi filed and approved if it is applicable.
Hopefully they can help you complete this ASAP.
stan1
Posts: 14246
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:35 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by stan1 »

katy006 wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:50 am OK, my question for the insurance agent or anyone who knows the answer. I have a parent in assisted living. They are unable to walk but can transfer with the assistance of a lift chair onto a rollator which she sits on and pushes with her right foot. Their left leg is useless. She has avascular necrosis of the left hip, severe DJD of the left knee and severe pitting lymphedema of both legs. She has to have hands on help to bath and clip toe and finger nails. Her other hands on need is with dressing, she requires an aide to put on compression stockings in the morning and remove them in the evening. Her LTC policy requires hands on help with 2 of six ADLs. Would the above example qualify for benefits? She has figured out how to put on pants since at assisted living since their are multiple bars in the bathroom, at home she wasn't able to put on pants and wore house dresses only. She does not have any cognitive impairment.
Work with the assisted living facility (or service provider). You may just need to show them her policy and they will start working on it and will do the evaluations. They do this all the time, it is in their interest to help her (and collect from LTCI ahead of any Medicaid benefits available in her state where they generally will get less reimbursement). My mom was in a similar situation to yours it sounds like, but we also discovered she was misrepresenting her abilities. For example, she would say she could change her clothes but they obviously were not being changed and the assisted living staff confirmed that she was not doing so.
katy006
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2024 8:34 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by katy006 »

Thank you for your help. One more question. You would think the Nurse who fills out the Claimant Care Needs Assessment Form for those who are applying for LTC benefits would know whether or not having Compression Socks placed by an aide every morning and removed every evening would qualify under the Dressing ADL as a 5, "receives hands-on assistance from another person to complete some or all of the ADL" but she didn't. She told me that putting on ted hose wouldn't be considered part of dressing. I told her I bought the exact compression socks from Amazon that the lymphedema nurse told me to buy, I pulled up the product description and showed her that they are called Compression Socks 15 to 20 mm hg. I pointed out that when I put on my socks in the morning, I considered it part of dressing. She said she didn't agree and would have to call my long term care insurance company to ask their opinion...WTF, my mind was blown. So that's what I'm dealing with. Instead of helping it seems this woman is trying to sabotage my Mom's chances of getting benefits. So, to be clear, putting on compression socks would be considered a part of dressing and would be enough to meet the dressing ADL requirement...as a 5.

Another question, Mom also is moderately incontinent and wears a thick pad in case she doesn't time her trip to the bathroom properly and she leaks a bit, requiring her to throw out the damp pad and place a dry one in her underwear. She is able to go to the toilet on her own. This same nurse (LPN) told me because she was incontinent and her trash was emptied everyday that additional ADL points would have to be added when determining her level of care charges. I told her that I considered emptying the trash a house keeping function that shouldn't incur additional level of care points. She seemed offended and said that house keeping only emptied trash once a week and aides emptied the trash on the other days and thus it did require additional points. I said, so you are telling me that other residents only have their trash emptied once a week? This enraged her more and she said don't put words in her mouth, she didn't say that. I never did get a straight answer about whose trash was emptied everyday but later that day while in my Mom's room I asked the aide who came in if some residents only got their trash emptied once a week. She told me that every resident in the facility was supposed to have their trash emptied everyday. It is my contention that if I hire a team of Medical Doctors to empty the trash, it is not all of a sudden not a house keeping function but rather a Medical procedure requiring a higher charge...lol. So she won, on my Mom's care plan she gets two additional points for what I outlined. Is she correct or am I? Also, I told the nurse that the points to transport Mom to and from the dining hall should be removed because she had a power wheelchair for over a month and hadn't been getting an escort. She didn't believe me and said she would have to see Mom using the power chair for herself...Mom had made over a hundred round trips to and from the dining room by the day I had my meeting with this Nurse.

You see what I'm dealing with, it's as though this nurse is working against my Mother's interests for some reason. Their were so many errors on the care plan that it became obvious she didn't know who my Mom was and except for the initial intake interview, she hadn't seen or spoken to my Mom in the 8 months she's been in assisted living. Again, thankyou.
grapegirl
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by grapegirl »

My parents have had John Hancock LTC for over 40 years and now we have been claiming it for 2 years and 7 months. I have to say we are grateful they have it but claiming it is a NIGHTMARE! They change the policy and rules monthly and never pay the daily amount they are obligated to pay. My sister and I are on the phone for hours each week just trying to claim the money from the licensed workers we have in the home for their 24 hour care. They also change the certifications for the health care worker and it's extremely hard to find qualified individuals in rural areas. I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WoW2012 »

grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am My parents have had John Hancock LTC for over 40 years and now we have been claiming it for 2 years and 7 months. I have to say we are grateful they have it but claiming it is a NIGHTMARE! They change the policy and rules monthly and never pay the daily amount they are obligated to pay. My sister and I are on the phone for hours each week just trying to claim the money from the licensed workers we have in the home for their 24 hour care. They also change the certifications for the health care worker and it's extremely hard to find qualified individuals in rural areas. I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
My mother-in-law's policy was with John Hancock.
The only time there was a delay in payment was when she moved into the assisted living facility. The facility took almost a month before they faxed John Hancock a copy of their license and the "care notes". Other than that, they paid on time every month for 4 years.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WoW2012 »

grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.

When my mother-in-law needed care, I didn't file the claim for her. I had the home care agency file the claim for her. They handled everything.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
WhitePuma
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri May 05, 2023 6:34 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WhitePuma »

WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by smitcat »

WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
We had the home care agency file all of the forms needed - same as when they went into a LTC facility.
Each one of the places we know of has someone who really knows this and that is a good single question to ask before engaging a home health agency or entering a facility.
WoW2012
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WoW2012 »

WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
The best advice I can give you is for you to have someone, who understands it, file the claim for you. Do you file your medical insurance claim when you go to the doctor? Of course not. Your doctor has a claims specialist who files all the claims for all the patients. Someone who does not understand long term care insurance should not try to file the claim without help.
Disclaimer: I am a licensed insurance professional and am certified as a long-term care insurance specialist.
User avatar
AnnetteLouisan
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Location: New York, NY

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

Our home health care agency helped prepare us for the claim process. Our claims agent at the insurance company was also very nice. I suppose it’s luck of the draw. I’ll let you know if we get approved and if it’s for the full amount. I agree with taking the time to read the entire policy since even within the same insurance company they are all different.

Filing the claim is not easy of course. But it’s mostly an information gathering exercise. Most of the wrk is done behind the scenes when the insurance company requests records from the providers. Just do the best you can. Our insurance company trouble shot on the front end by offering assistance with the claim by offering help with any questions.

Maybe the biggest challenge is preparing paperwork when you are already consumed with the other aspects of the relative’s condition. One thing that helped me was to put all the claim materials in a drawer and only work on it after working hours, and to close the drawer the rest of the time.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gunny2
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by gunny2 »

Chardo wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:19 am This is something most people don't realize. It's the middle aged kids who really pay for long term care. Either directly from their pockets, or by dwindled inheritance.
It's great if possible, but IMO kids should never expect an inheritance. If I had kids I still wouldn't have long-term care. If I'm in an end-of-days nursing home situation, I'm miserable whether I can pay for it or not.

And I don't have kids and LTC is so expensive I passed.
WhitePuma
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WhitePuma »

smitcat wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:42 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
We had the home care agency file all of the forms needed - same as when they went into a LTC facility.
Each one of the places we know of has someone who really knows this and that is a good single question to ask before engaging a home health agency or entering a facility.
What is a "home care agency"?
WhitePuma
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri May 05, 2023 6:34 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WhitePuma »

WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:10 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
The best advice I can give you is for you to have someone, who understands it, file the claim for you. Do you file your medical insurance claim when you go to the doctor? Of course not. Your doctor has a claims specialist who files all the claims for all the patients. Someone who does not understand long term care insurance should not try to file the claim without help.
And how does one know who understands it? How does one find help?

Saying "find help" isn't really help.
User avatar
AnnetteLouisan
Posts: 7261
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:16 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:42 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
We had the home care agency file all of the forms needed - same as when they went into a LTC facility.
Each one of the places we know of has someone who really knows this and that is a good single question to ask before engaging a home health agency or entering a facility.
What is a "home care agency"?
A company that supplies home health care aides. These are mostly private pay. And wow are they pricey! But in home care is best for some conditions. When one has a chronic condition and needs help with day to day matters, it can be a much better option than living in a facility with others, and many people these days prefer to age in place with the comforts of home. It can be frightening to be elderly with failing health. Having a person dedicated to assisting you can really be a wonderful thing once you find the right person.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WhitePuma
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri May 05, 2023 6:34 pm

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by WhitePuma »

AnnetteLouisan wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:51 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:42 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm

The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
We had the home care agency file all of the forms needed - same as when they went into a LTC facility.
Each one of the places we know of has someone who really knows this and that is a good single question to ask before engaging a home health agency or entering a facility.
What is a "home care agency"?
A company that supplies home health care aides. These are mostly private pay. And wow are they pricey! But in home care is best for some conditions.
Thank you, Annette! Does "prviate pay" mean they don't accept LTC insurance? Could you give me a data point for the general sense of the price, which I assume depends on things like # days or hours per week they visit, etc.
User avatar
AnnetteLouisan
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Location: New York, NY

Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by AnnetteLouisan »

No, private pay means Medicare doesn’t cover it and the patient isn’t on Medicaid. LTCI should cover a portion of it. I am not in this field but have been learning about it because a relative is using one.

Costs range depending on your area, the company, whether they are licensed or only bonded and insured, whether they are providing “health aide services” or merely “companionship,” and whether you need part time or round the clock care. At the ultra high end there are live in registered nurses.

Based on my recent informal survey of the market in my VHCOLA, you can look at $300 day on the low end, for round the clock, a lot in the $460-650/day range up to $1000/ day, and that’s just for aides, who may or may not drive and who are forbidden to fill pillboxes. But there are part time options in the $175/day range. If you utilize the services of someone who isn’t licensed, the risk of LTCI not covering it jumps.

For live in RNs — well, then we’re talking real money.
smitcat
Posts: 13304
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:51 am

Re: Long Term Care Insurance john hancock

Post by smitcat »

WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:49 pm
smitcat wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:42 pm
WhitePuma wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:35 pm
WoW2012 wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:32 pm
grapegirl wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:47 am I would love any suggestions or help anyone has. thank you Ginny
The hardest part about a long-term care insurance claim is that it’s brand new for everyone. Even though over one million people have received benefits from their long-term care policies, most of us have never filed a long-term care insurance claim. Your doctor has lots of experience filing medical insurance claims, but little or no experience filing long-term care insurance claims. Who do you turn to for help?

And the language in long-term care insurance policies is foreign to most people.
Most people don't know the difference between

a certification period and an elimination period
OR
a qualified caregiver
OR
skilled care vs intermediate care vs custodial care
OR
formal care vs informal care
etc...

It's not really that complicated, but for someone who is unfamiliar with these terms, it's a nightmare.
"It's not complicated", but then again, it is for those of us who have different day jobs with their own vocabularies. So, why not help educate us on these rather than just fear-monger? After all, the purpose of this forum and the instrinsic nature of what Bogle wanted is to help each other.
We had the home care agency file all of the forms needed - same as when they went into a LTC facility.
Each one of the places we know of has someone who really knows this and that is a good single question to ask before engaging a home health agency or entering a facility.
What is a "home care agency"?
A source for hiring folks to come into your home for caring needs.
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