Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021 [and later]

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yobery
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by yobery »

sharkly wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:26 am Yes, those appear to be the most recent trades identified by boxtrades. I don’t know of a better source to identify more trades if there are some that boxtrades is missing, but I definitely appreciate adamhg’s work to make this data easy to access.
Absolutely, I don't know of a better source, and very much appreciate the site existing - I just wanted to make sure I understood it correctly
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by LadyGeek »

sharukh - In order to provide appropriate advice, it's best to keep all the information in one spot.I removed your post in this thread.

The question is here: Transferred a SPX short box to another broker, everything got mixed up with another short box

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and provided a link to that thread.)
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

Hi,

Can you please share how you filled the tax form to report the box trades.

I have started a new thread for talking about tax reporting of box spread. Please share your knowledge.

The tax date is getting close, so this is starting to get time sensitive.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=374186&newpost=6596836

Thank you
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millennialmillions
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by millennialmillions »

investorbust wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:14 am Does anyone have experience getting a mortgage while having box spreads on their portfolio?

I’m wondering if: a) it’ll raise a lot of questions and make things difficult and b) whether I can use box spreads for the down payment without an issues.

Thanks in advance.
Saw you already got one useful response to this, but I'll add on since I recently got a mortgage through Chase and made my down payment with portfolio margin, which was then transferred to box spreads. When getting approved for my loan, I had to provide a brokerage account statement, and the important number was net liquidation value. So it didn't matter that I had margin through box spreads, and Chase did not treat it as an outstanding loan. When I withdrew cash from my brokerage account to fund a checking account for the down payment, I had to provide an activity statement which showed "liquidation of funds." I simply sent an activity statement that showed the withdrawal and corresponding decrease in net liquidation value, and they were happy with that.
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

Hi,

Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.

Did you see either Schwab or Fidelity or any other broker give you credit adjustment to make up for the lost taxes ?

I tried to talk to their customer service people, didn't get much help, so reaching out to people to share their experience.

FWIW: Both schwab and fidelity claims to pay the difference.
https://www.fidelity.com/tax-informatio ... t%20income.

https://www.schwab.com/legal/margin-dis ... -statement
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by drk »

sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:56 am Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.
AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
A useful razor: anyone asking about speculative strategies on Bogleheads.org has no business using them.
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

drk wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:26 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:56 am Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.
AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
yobery
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by yobery »

sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:47 am
drk wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:26 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:56 am Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.
AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:03 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:47 am
drk wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:26 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:56 am Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.
AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
yobery
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by yobery »

sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:03 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:47 am
drk wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:26 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:56 am Did any of you get substitute payments dividends-in-lieu because of using short SPX box ?
IBKR has given me dividends-in-lieu and they are not eligible for qualified tax treatment.
AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
Sounds like a reason not to use ibkr as a broker but I still don't see any relation to your box
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:11 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:03 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:47 am
drk wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:26 am

AFAIK, there are no dividends on SPX options, so I assume the payments you received came from another asset you hold that was lent out.
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
Sounds like a reason not to use ibkr as a broker but I still don't see any relation to your box
I was under the impression that if I use the box for financing instead of the regular margin, I won't get substitute payment. Apparently it is not the case.
comeinvest
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:19 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:11 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:03 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 11:47 am
Yes, it is from VTI

Because I have a margin loan via SPX box, they lent out my VTI and gave a substitute divided. That substitute is now a qualified dividend.
It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
Sounds like a reason not to use ibkr as a broker but I still don't see any relation to your box
I was under the impression that if I use the box for financing instead of the regular margin, I won't get substitute payment. Apparently it is not the case.
It has a lot to do with his box. The rules and terminology are complicated, but long story short: You cannot avoid payments-in-lieu by using box spreads instead of margin loans. The brokerages covered their bases. I hear that Fidelity and Schwab reimburse their customers for the tax disadvantage, and/or don't lend out shares on the ex-dividend date. By contrast, IB doesn't care. They think they are too special.
jshaffer740
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by jshaffer740 »

comeinvest wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:58 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:19 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:11 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:03 pm

It's because you have your VTI inside a margin account period, nothing whatsoever to do with your box. "The program is available to eligible IBKR clients1 who have been approved for a margin account" https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/p ... rogram.php
"Sign up for IBKR's Stock Yield Enhancement Program on the Account Settings configuration table in Client Portal."
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
Sounds like a reason not to use ibkr as a broker but I still don't see any relation to your box
I was under the impression that if I use the box for financing instead of the regular margin, I won't get substitute payment. Apparently it is not the case.
It has a lot to do with his box. The rules and terminology are complicated, but long story short: You cannot avoid payments-in-lieu by using box spreads instead of margin loans. The brokerages covered their bases. I hear that Fidelity and Schwab reimburse their customers for the tax disadvantage, and/or don't lend out shares on the ex-dividend date. By contrast, IB doesn't care. They think they are too special.
Yes. It should surprise no one that IB’s industry-low margin rates are no free lunch. The more you learn, the more you realize that IB gets its share in other, subtler ways.

I’ve come to think that box spreads at Fidelity might be the best overall combination for a longterm investor looking for cheap leverage.
1.5x leverage | 45% market-cap [VTI, VEA, VWO] + 45% factor tilted [AVUV, AVDV, AVES] + 10% trend following [KMLM, DBMF]
comeinvest
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

jshaffer740 wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 10:26 pm
comeinvest wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:58 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:19 pm
yobery wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:11 pm
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm

I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
Sounds like a reason not to use ibkr as a broker but I still don't see any relation to your box
I was under the impression that if I use the box for financing instead of the regular margin, I won't get substitute payment. Apparently it is not the case.
It has a lot to do with his box. The rules and terminology are complicated, but long story short: You cannot avoid payments-in-lieu by using box spreads instead of margin loans. The brokerages covered their bases. I hear that Fidelity and Schwab reimburse their customers for the tax disadvantage, and/or don't lend out shares on the ex-dividend date. By contrast, IB doesn't care. They think they are too special.
Yes. It should surprise no one that IB’s industry-low margin rates are no free lunch. The more you learn, the more you realize that IB gets its share in other, subtler ways.

I’ve come to think that box spreads at Fidelity might be the best overall combination for a longterm investor looking for cheap leverage.
For me personally I determined that IB is still better, because I often have small to medium positive and negative cash balances e.g. from cash flows and from futures contracts, that would be impractical and too expensive to cover with boxes. Only things like municipal bonds I moved to another account, to protect them from payments-in-lieu.
muffins14
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
You might as well sign up then. Even for stocks bought in margin they DO split the lending income with you 50/50, as long as you’re above some threshold for margin requirements. You can carry margin balance and still get lending income (I do).

I have also never gotten payment in lieu of a dividend yet, and I think they try to avoid that
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

muffins14 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:33 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
You might as well sign up then. Even for stocks bought in margin they DO split the lending income with you 50/50, as long as you’re above some threshold for margin requirements. You can carry margin balance and still get lending income (I do).

I have also never gotten payment in lieu of a dividend yet, and I think they try to avoid that
I am working on moving to fidelity. Based on 2021 taxes, I have lost $160 due to getting payment in lieu.
Say 20% difference in taxes. $800 divided in lieu.
I didn't receive any payments from the stock lending they did due to use of margin
muffins14
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

sharukh wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:35 pm
muffins14 wrote: Wed Apr 06, 2022 7:33 am
sharukh wrote: Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:06 pm
I have not signed up for stock yield enhancement.

IBKR will lend your long stock or ETF if we use margin. They keep all the money that they get when a stock is lent.

Only for fully paid security they share the income.

For stocks bought on margin, they lend our stock and not pay the lending income also give a substitute divided.
You might as well sign up then. Even for stocks bought in margin they DO split the lending income with you 50/50, as long as you’re above some threshold for margin requirements. You can carry margin balance and still get lending income (I do).

I have also never gotten payment in lieu of a dividend yet, and I think they try to avoid that
I am working on moving to fidelity. Based on 2021 taxes, I have lost $160 due to getting payment in lieu.
Say 20% difference in taxes. $800 divided in lieu.
I didn't receive any payments from the stock lending they did due to use of margin
Do you carry very close to your limit of margin?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

Yes, I borrowed 30% and used that to put it in I bonds.
comeinvest
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

sharukh wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:04 pm Yes, I borrowed 30% and used that to put it in I bonds.
I did exactly the same earlier this year. B.t.w. what is your plan after the financing rate is equal to or higher than the I-Bond interest (real return 0%)? Keep holding, or sell, pay taxes on the accumulated interest, and re-deploy the money? I think I will sell, as I-Bonds are not marginable and no longer interesting once the inflation vs interest rate spread disappeared. But on the other hand they would become interesting again if and when risk-free financing rates go below real zero again, and the yearly amount you can buy is limited.
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

comeinvest wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:46 pm
sharukh wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:04 pm Yes, I borrowed 30% and used that to put it in I bonds.
I did exactly the same earlier this year. B.t.w. what is your plan after the financing rate is equal to or higher than the I-Bond interest (real return 0%)? Keep holding, or sell, pay taxes on the accumulated interest, and re-deploy the money? I think I will sell, as I-Bonds are not marginable and no longer interesting once the inflation vs interest rate spread disappeared. But on the other hand they would become interesting again if and when risk-free financing rates go below real zero again, and the yearly amount you can buy is limited.
I would probably sell, as using margin comes with the risk of margin call. I posted about using put to hedge a little to handle the margin call risk.
If the i-bond interest rate difference is not high enough, I would sell it as I am taking in additional margin call risk for getting that higher yield.
viewtopic.php?t=374763
using a put comes with its own set of problems : makes the dividend not qualified.
muffins14
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

I'm trying to understand this approach better and haven't read through all the posts yet.

If I'm seeing implied rates of ~1.8%-2% on boxtrades.com for a spread expiring about 1 year from now, why would I prefer to do that vs stay on my portfolio margin debt of 1.33% at IBKR? Just because it is locked in and I might expect that rate to rise whereas the box is fixed through expiration?

Additionally how does one close out the balance you're carrying, do you:
1) make the inverse trade if possible?
2) have your cash on hand and then just let the contract expire?
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am I'm trying to understand this approach better and haven't read through all the posts yet.

If I'm seeing implied rates of ~1.8%-2% on boxtrades.com for a spread expiring about 1 year from now, why would I prefer to do that vs stay on my portfolio margin debt of 1.33% at IBKR? Just because it is locked in and I might expect that rate to rise whereas the box is fixed through expiration?

Additionally how does one close out the balance you're carrying, do you:
1) make the inverse trade if possible?
2) have your cash on hand and then just let the contract expire?
1.33% at IBKR is for money above $100k, one would still pay 1.83% for the first $100k
Once I let the contract expire, once I did a inverse trade
Bosro
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by Bosro »

Wondering the same thing. If rates drop… how to close out current box early and open a new one at a lower rate?
muffins14
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

sharukh wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am I'm trying to understand this approach better and haven't read through all the posts yet.

If I'm seeing implied rates of ~1.8%-2% on boxtrades.com for a spread expiring about 1 year from now, why would I prefer to do that vs stay on my portfolio margin debt of 1.33% at IBKR? Just because it is locked in and I might expect that rate to rise whereas the box is fixed through expiration?

Additionally how does one close out the balance you're carrying, do you:
1) make the inverse trade if possible?
2) have your cash on hand and then just let the contract expire?
1.33% at IBKR is for money above $100k, one would still pay 1.83% for the first $100k
Once I let the contract expire, once I did a inverse trade
I am aware of that, but if you sign up through some promotions you start at the second tier. Thus I am paying 1.33%
Crom laughs at your Four Winds
Chuck
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by Chuck »

Bosro wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am Wondering the same thing. If rates drop… how to close out current box early and open a new one at a lower rate?
If rates drop, the price to close the box will rise. Why would you expect otherwise?
sharukh
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:12 am
sharukh wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am I'm trying to understand this approach better and haven't read through all the posts yet.

If I'm seeing implied rates of ~1.8%-2% on boxtrades.com for a spread expiring about 1 year from now, why would I prefer to do that vs stay on my portfolio margin debt of 1.33% at IBKR? Just because it is locked in and I might expect that rate to rise whereas the box is fixed through expiration?

Additionally how does one close out the balance you're carrying, do you:
1) make the inverse trade if possible?
2) have your cash on hand and then just let the contract expire?
1.33% at IBKR is for money above $100k, one would still pay 1.83% for the first $100k
Once I let the contract expire, once I did a inverse trade
I am aware of that, but if you sign up through some promotions you start at the second tier. Thus I am paying 1.33%
Hmm.. lucky you. in that case one pro for SPX box is the interest you pay is tax deductible(even if you dont itemize).
Bosro
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by Bosro »

Chuck wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:24 am
Bosro wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:11 am Wondering the same thing. If rates drop… how to close out current box early and open a new one at a lower rate?
If rates drop, the price to close the box will rise. Why would you expect otherwise?
Potentially open a new box at a longer duration with a lower rate than what was previously available. I only have short term boxes currently.
Chuck
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by Chuck »

If it's 3 months or less, I just wait until they expire.
jshaffer740
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by jshaffer740 »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am
If I'm seeing implied rates of ~1.8%-2% on boxtrades.com for a spread expiring about 1 year from now, why would I prefer to do that vs stay on my portfolio margin debt of 1.33% at IBKR? Just because it is locked in and I might expect that rate to rise whereas the box is fixed through expiration?
A few things:

1. If you’re patient, you can sometimes do slightly better than what you’re seeing on boxtrades.com.

2. As you’d expect, you’re going to pay a small premium for locking in the rate for a year. If you want your leverage to be agnostic about interest rate movements, then you can take out shorter-term box spread loans. That is my plan because I don’t want to bet on interest rate movements (or pay a premium for fixed rates), so I want my box spreads to act somewhat like variable rate loans.

3. But all else equal, there’s no theoretical reason why IBKR’s margin rates would beat box spreads. Box spreads are virtually risk free and have no middle man. I wouldn’t bet on IBKR’s rates reliably beating box spreads.

You have to compare apples to apples. For instance, two-month box spreads are trading at implied rates of about 0.7% right now. So you can beat IBKR if you’re willing to give up the protection of a fixed rate.

4. For many people, box spreads offer more favorable tax treatment. The loss on your box spread—I.e., the implied interest rate—is treated as a 60% LTCG and a 40% STCG. So no need to itemize to get the deduction. You should consider the after-tax implied interest rate when comparing these two tools.
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:07 am
Additionally how does one close out the balance you're carrying, do you:
1) make the inverse trade if possible?
2) have your cash on hand and then just let the contract expire?
You could make the inverse trade, but to save on commissions I would simply let it expire. When that happens, assuming you do nothing else, your broker would pay back the box spread on margin. You will a negative cash balance equal to the box spread amount.

At that point, you have several options, depending on your goal. If you want to continue borrowing, you could (a) sell another box spread in whatever amount you choose; (b) or simply keep the negative cash balance and borrow on margin.

If you want to stop borrowing, you could (a) deposit enough cash to bring your cash balance to $0; or (b) sell enough securities to bring your cash balance to $0.

In other words, think of box spreads as simply replacing a negative cash balance (margin) with a negative option balance. When the option expires, the reverse happens: replace a negative option balance with a negative cash balance.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

jshaffer740 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:06 am [
2. As you’d expect, you’re going to pay a small premium for locking in the rate for a year. If you want your leverage to be agnostic about interest rate movements, then you can take out shorter-term box spread loans. That is my plan because I don’t want to bet on interest rate movements (or pay a premium for fixed rates), so I want my box spreads to act somewhat like variable rate loans.

3. But all else equal, there’s no theoretical reason why IBKR’s margin rates would beat box spreads. Box spreads are virtually risk free and have no middle man. I wouldn’t bet on IBKR’s rates reliably beating box spreads.

You have to compare apples to apples. For instance, two-month box spreads are trading at implied rates of about 0.7% right now. So you can beat IBKR if you’re willing to give up the protection of a fixed rate.
1) How short is short-term? 3-months out?
2) How is the liquidity for short-term boxes related to the contract end dates? Is it similar treasury futures where March, June, Sep, Dec are the big dates for volume and other end dates are sparse with higher spreads?

Actionable for me:
Trying to understand if I should be buying and rolling boxes every 3 months or taking something for 12 months

One other question I had was for finding the best price overall, how much do the strike prices matter? e.g. if I want a spread of 500 (or 1000), do I want the strikes to be like (Today's SPX) +/- 500 (or 1000), or is there better volume at some other level that doesn't exactly straddle today's SPX price? How does one even determine that?
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

OK so I did the thing

I placed a trade for a box spread with strike 1 at 4700 and strike 2 at 4200 and a July 15 date

It executed at -498.65, so my annualized "interest rate" would be calculated to be something like (500/498.65)^(365/98) => 1.012% is that right?

And now I get $49,865 to do whatever I want with ... man, capitalism is weird
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by Chuck »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:07 am And now I get $49,865 to do whatever I want with ... man, capitalism is weird
You've posted collateral, which held and enforced by your broker. Your counterparty's other risk-free option is a 3 month treasury yielding something like 0.7%. So you've just given someone a risk-free 0.3% yield boost. So everything makes logical sense. This is a rare opportunity for a retail player to come even close to what the big boys can do, and it feels good, doesn't it?
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by jshaffer740 »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 11:07 am
It executed at -498.65, so my annualized "interest rate" would be calculated to be something like (500/498.65)^(365/98) => 1.012% is that right?
Yeah, absent commissions, which will make the rate negligently higher.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:24 am 1) How short is short-term? 3-months out?
2) How is the liquidity for short-term boxes related to the contract end dates? Is it similar treasury futures where March, June, Sep, Dec are the big dates for volume and other end dates are sparse with higher spreads?

Actionable for me:
Trying to understand if I should be buying and rolling boxes every 3 months or taking something for 12 months

One other question I had was for finding the best price overall, how much do the strike prices matter? e.g. if I want a spread of 500 (or 1000), do I want the strikes to be like (Today's SPX) +/- 500 (or 1000), or is there better volume at some other level that doesn't exactly straddle today's SPX price? How does one even determine that?
Those are excellent question, that I asked before up in this thread.
The one thing I know is that the liquidity of the individual legs matters little or not at all, and neither do size, at least above ca. $100k worth of box and up, and neither to round numbers, at least I have not determined a difference.
I don't know how the effective spread that you can cat fills at depends on the maturity. My working assumption is that the spread expressed as APY percentage is constant, but I have not verified this. Can we achieve tighter effective APY spreads at longer maturities? I have achieved ca. 0.1-0.2% APY difference between buying and selling a box. Unfortunately I have the impression that I never got filled by an order taking liquidity other than market makers, but got always filled at the more unfavorable end of the range as per boxtrades.com.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by hubcity »

I made this trade in my Schwab brokerage account (level 2 options, no portfolio margin) and it worked just fine. My experience seemed to match that of skinnybuddha in that it all worked without issue. I sold the box on Thursday. The proceeds were immediately available for trading but not available for withdrawal. [Un-boglehead warning!] So I bought a few shares of VTI and then sold them a few hours later for a gain of about $165. On Friday my account showed an amount available for withdrawal equal to the proceeds of the box trade. Instead of withdrawing the money I closed my box position by buying the box back. I bought the box back at a slightly higher price (about $25 higher). I blame myself for being impatient. Both of my trades show up on adamhg's boxtrades site. That's my report of doing a box trade on Schwab and how I made $136.

I'm not convinced that I have a reason to do this trade for real, but it's nice to know that I could do it if I needed to.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by indexfundfan »

hubcity wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:32 am I sold the box on Thursday. The proceeds were immediately available for trading but not available for withdrawal. [Un-boglehead warning!] So I bought a few shares of VTI and then sold them a few hours later for a gain of about $165.
It would have been OK to make that VTI trade because option trades (the box trade) settle on day T+1 and equity trades settle on day T+2. Therefore, your VTI trade would not have caused a margin interest charge.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

hubcity wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:32 am I made this trade in my Schwab brokerage account (level 2 options, no portfolio margin) and it worked just fine. My experience seemed to match that of skinnybuddha in that it all worked without issue. I sold the box on Thursday. The proceeds were immediately available for trading but not available for withdrawal. [Un-boglehead warning!] So I bought a few shares of VTI and then sold them a few hours later for a gain of about $165. On Friday my account showed an amount available for withdrawal equal to the proceeds of the box trade. Instead of withdrawing the money I closed my box position by buying the box back. I bought the box back at a slightly higher price (about $25 higher). I blame myself for being impatient. Both of my trades show up on adamhg's boxtrades site. That's my report of doing a box trade on Schwab and how I made $136.

I'm not convinced that I have a reason to do this trade for real, but it's nice to know that I could do it if I needed to.
Thanks for your report. I think with both a Reg T account and a portfolio margin account, you will have the full value of the box available to withdraw or to trade, but the difference is that with Reg T that works only with relatively lower loan balances or overall margin, as the margin requirements are significantly higher.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by skinnybuddha »

muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:59 pm If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:59 pm If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
you can expand or contract the box for a loan of $100k.

Say you short a 4000-5000 box.
you want to pay $10k

then create a long box of 4000-4100

The net result will be
loan of $90k from a 4100-5000 box.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by richardm »

skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
You could also roll two of the four legs to a lower/higher strike, thereby expanding or contracting the box.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

richardm wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:01 am
skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
You could also roll two of the four legs to a lower/higher strike, thereby expanding or contracting the box.
Yet another way is to split your "box loan" into longer and shorter maturities, if you don't know in advance how long you need the money. For example, I usually roll to end-of-quarter expiration i.e. 3-months boxes, but when I'm not sure, I split between 3-months, 2-months, and 1 month. I think this will save transaction cost. If you go too short with small boxes though, it might increase transaction cost if you need to "refinance" too often.
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by klaus14 »

sharukh wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:44 am
skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:59 pm If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
you can expand or contract the box for a loan of $100k.

Say you short a 4000-5000 box.
you want to pay $10k

then create a long box of 4000-4100

The net result will be
loan of $90k from a 4100-5000 box.
i wonder if ibkr would recognize this as such.
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by sharukh »

klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:04 am
sharukh wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:44 am
skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:59 pm If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
you can expand or contract the box for a loan of $100k.

Say you short a 4000-5000 box.
you want to pay $10k

then create a long box of 4000-4100

The net result will be
loan of $90k from a 4100-5000 box.
i wonder if ibkr would recognize this as such.
The 2nd long box of 4000-4100 is equivalent to rolling the lower leg of 4000-5000 box from 4000 to 4100 effectively the remaining security in your account are 4100 and 5000 strikes making it a 4100-5000 short box
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by klaus14 »

sharukh wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:07 am
klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:04 am
sharukh wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:44 am
skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am
muffins14 wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:59 pm If you want more than 100k credit, do you just purchase one box with larger spread, or multiple boxes of smaller spreads?

It’s interesting that you think the strike prices don’t matter that much
Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
you can expand or contract the box for a loan of $100k.

Say you short a 4000-5000 box.
you want to pay $10k

then create a long box of 4000-4100

The net result will be
loan of $90k from a 4100-5000 box.
i wonder if ibkr would recognize this as such.
The 2nd long box of 4000-4100 is equivalent to rolling the lower leg of 4000-5000 box from 4000 to 4100 effectively the remaining security in your account are 4100 and 5000 strikes making it a 4100-5000 short box
i understand that. my concern is this transaction breaking ibkr understanding of box and converting it to 4 seperate legs. this would break ibkr valuation algorithm and may create unwanted margin calls. i guess the only way is to try and see :)
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

It seems like the “interest rate” on the boxes are all more than 1.33% now, which is my IBKR margin rate, so I guess I’m staying w margin for now
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by klaus14 »

muffins14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:25 pm It seems like the “interest rate” on the boxes are all more than 1.33% now, which is my IBKR margin rate, so I guess I’m staying w margin for now
margin rates will increase as fed raises. box is locked in.
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by muffins14 »

klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:26 pm
muffins14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:25 pm It seems like the “interest rate” on the boxes are all more than 1.33% now, which is my IBKR margin rate, so I guess I’m staying w margin for now
margin rates will increase as fed raises. box is locked in.
It seems hard to predict though. Why not just wait until my margin is higher than what I see on boxes?
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by klaus14 »

muffins14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:28 pm
klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:26 pm
muffins14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:25 pm It seems like the “interest rate” on the boxes are all more than 1.33% now, which is my IBKR margin rate, so I guess I’m staying w margin for now
margin rates will increase as fed raises. box is locked in.
It seems hard to predict though. Why not just wait until my margin is higher than what I see on boxes?
you dont need to predict. just look at 1y treasury rates.

basically: ibkr adds 1.5% on top of risk free rate vs box adds 0.4%. box should almost always be cheaper unless interest rates move unexpectedly.
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Box Spreads as Loans - Interactive Brokers IBKR - 2021

Post by comeinvest »

klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 5:24 pm
sharukh wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:07 am
klaus14 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:04 am
sharukh wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:44 am
skinnybuddha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:30 am

Hi muffins - I think (without much evidence) that the economics may be a bit better with one big box, but as someone who did that I kind of regret it. The issue now is, how do I ever pay this thing off? Build up the full amount in a bank account? For the future I plan to buy a set of small boxes that I can then pay down one or two of when I want to decrease my leverage.
you can expand or contract the box for a loan of $100k.

Say you short a 4000-5000 box.
you want to pay $10k

then create a long box of 4000-4100

The net result will be
loan of $90k from a 4100-5000 box.
i wonder if ibkr would recognize this as such.
The 2nd long box of 4000-4100 is equivalent to rolling the lower leg of 4000-5000 box from 4000 to 4100 effectively the remaining security in your account are 4100 and 5000 strikes making it a 4100-5000 short box
i understand that. my concern is this transaction breaking ibkr understanding of box and converting it to 4 seperate legs. this would break ibkr valuation algorithm and may create unwanted margin calls. i guess the only way is to try and see :)
I know because I did it:
- When you "delete" one individual leg of a box or it gets assigned (SPX legs cannot get assigned), IB turns the remaining legs into individual options positions.
- When you "repair" a box by adding a missing leg, or try to construct a box by trading the 4 individual legs, IB does NOT make it an "official" box in TWS. I have not checked the margin requirement of 4 box legs vs an "official" box where the strike prices are relatively close to ATM, but others reported that the margin is higher if it's not an "official" box. I know that when strike prices are far ITM or OTM, the total margin requirement is almost identical to a full box, and that is the case even when you sell the (nearly worthless) long positions in the OTM legs and just retain the 2 short ITM legs.
- When you "expand" or "contract" an existing box by selling or buying another box where one strike price is identical to that of an existing box, then IB modifies the existing box. In other words, the existing box gets converted into another "official" box. I don't know what happens if there are more than one existing boxes with a matching strike price, which would create some ambiguity.

The only caveat with expanding or contracting existing boxes is that the unrealized P&L after the expansion/contraction does not match your actual profit/loss from the box, as part of the original box is realized. Not a big deal, it's just a visual thing; but I personally like to create or delete entire boxes if possible.
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