Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

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GeraniumLover
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by GeraniumLover »

smihaila wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:08 pm
GeraniumLover wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:23 am It looks as if Dominion (mentioned/linked to upthread) is still offering 1.5% on deposits $50k and up, at least for now.
Do you happen to know what's Dominion Energy's credit rating?
Seems to be Baa2 (Moody's) according to this link:
https://investors.dominionenergy.com/fi ... ion-energy
No I don't, but upthread it said their rating was lower than Toyota's
LSLover
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by LSLover »

GM is still paying 1.5%. Anyone has experience with them?

https://www.rightnotes.com/
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by White Coat Investor »

Bronco Billy wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:31 pm
White Coat Investor wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:15 am
grayparrot wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:21 pm
Really? 1.5% is attractive for an unsecured debt? Are you only comparing them to cash? Are you really comfortable with unsecured debt for your cash needs? I'm not. Mine is either in a MMF or an FDIC insured savings account.
Can you tell me where you find MF or ETF that are FDIC insured. I hear everyone worried about being FDIC iinsured but most of my money is in the MARKET and its not protected by FDIC.
You seem to have skipped "for your cash needs."
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Stinky
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

LSLover wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:34 am GM is still paying 1.5%. Anyone has experience with them?

https://www.rightnotes.com/
I expect that the customer experience would be substantially similar to Toyota, since service is handled by the same vendor.

The 0.15% additional interest with GM will earn you the princely sum of $0.12 per month per $1,000 invested. For that trivial difference, I’ll stick with Toyota’s higher credit rating.
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smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

Stinky wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:44 pm I expect that the customer experience would be substantially similar to Toyota, since service is handled by the same vendor.

The 0.15% additional interest with GM will earn you the princely sum of $0.12 per month per $1,000 invested. For that trivial difference, I’ll stick with Toyota’s higher credit rating.
0.15% for 500K = $750 / year (minus income tax). So, pre-tax, it's a monthly $62.50 that Toyota Financial Services is stealing from my pocket. That amounts to a monthly XCel energy bill (for electricity + nat gas), or one week worth of food from Walmart, for a family of 4...
lakpr
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by lakpr »

smihaila wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:47 pm
Stinky wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:44 pm I expect that the customer experience would be substantially similar to Toyota, since service is handled by the same vendor.

The 0.15% additional interest with GM will earn you the princely sum of $0.12 per month per $1,000 invested. For that trivial difference, I’ll stick with Toyota’s higher credit rating.
0.15% for 500K = $750 / year (minus income tax). So, pre-tax, it's a monthly $62.50 that Toyota Financial Services is stealing from my pocket. That amounts to a monthly XCel energy bill (for electricity + nat gas), or one week worth of food from Walmart, for a family of 4...
I absolutely get what you are saying, but I doubt that a family of 4 being able to invest $500k in a money market fund would feel the pinch of losing $750 per year. I mean, the demographics are completely different.
smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

lakpr wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:33 pm I absolutely get what you are saying, but I doubt that a family of 4 being able to invest $500k in a money market fund would feel the pinch of losing $750 per year. I mean, the demographics are completely different.
I'm afraid I don't understand. What difference investing 500K in a money market would it make? Money ($750) is money...and it counts especially in a family of 4 situation, and with one sole breadwinner...Oh, maybe your statement about "the demographics are completely different" kind of implied that I might be rich?? Far from that - those as my whole lifetime savings, money hard-earner over a very loooong period of time.

Anyway, I've scheduled a full transfer out of Toyota's IncomeDriver Notes. I cannot stand the feeling of "backstabbing" with these rate cuts (even if, yes, they have not violated any service agreement).
I'll earn only 0.59% API with SFGIdirect.com, but at least that will feel safer and more honest (even if, SFGI can also cut rates even further, and without any notices).

I don't know where I'll put this hard-earned money into (my whole life savings).
Is there any hope for the stock market to experience a significant cool-off?

The inflation is a bitch...
Last edited by smihaila on Sat May 15, 2021 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

P.S. Hopefully Toyota IncomeDriver Notes / NY Melon, will credit me at the end of this month, for the 18 days worth of my interest (which is the time my money stayed invested for this month of May)?
Or will I lose that interest?

Thanks.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

smihaila wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:53 pm P.S. Hopefully Toyota IncomeDriver Notes / NY Melon, will credit me at the end of this month, for the 18 days worth of my interest (which is the time my money stayed invested for this month of May)?
Or will I lose that interest?

Thanks.
I suspect the former. You’ll get your “X” days at 1.50. But that’s just my guess.

We’ll all find out together in early June.
Last edited by Stinky on Sat May 15, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by SlowMovingInvestor »

smihaila wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:47 pm
Stinky wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:44 pm I expect that the customer experience would be substantially similar to Toyota, since service is handled by the same vendor.

The 0.15% additional interest with GM will earn you the princely sum of $0.12 per month per $1,000 invested. For that trivial difference, I’ll stick with Toyota’s higher credit rating.
0.15% for 500K = $750 / year (minus income tax). So, pre-tax, it's a monthly $62.50 that Toyota Financial Services is stealing from my pocket. That amounts to a monthly XCel energy bill (for electricity + nat gas), or one week worth of food from Walmart, for a family of 4...
Stealing from your pocket ? Toyota has a credit rating several notches higher than GM (which, it may be noted, has gone into bankruptcy once). If anything, I'd say GM is 'stealing' from you by only giving you a minor amount more despite having a lower rating.
smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 6:20 pm Stealing from your pocket ? Toyota has a credit rating several notches higher than GM (which, it may be noted, has gone into bankruptcy once). If anything, I'd say GM is 'stealing' from you by only giving you a minor amount more despite having a lower rating.
That's a fair point.

But by the same rationale, how low can the "pretentious" Toyota can go, to justify it's kick-ass stellar credit rating? :). At the end of the day, I tend to agree with the other forumist: the risk associated to these unsecured-debt-instruments-backed-up-by-absolutely-nothing, doesn't seem to justify this "so-proudly-offered" yield.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Makefile »

Stinky wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:13 am It's interesting that Toyota Motor Credit Corporation is choosing to fund some of their financing needs through direct-lending from individuals, rather than issuing corporate debt or using commercial paper.

I'd definitely want to know if these notes have a rating from a major rating agency - and if so, what it is. I'd also like to know the ratings, if any, of TMCC's other debt.
I just noticed this thread with the additional posts about the rate change, and this is a good point.

It made me think about Vanguard's decision to exit the prime money market fund business last year. Prime money market funds would be the biggest market for these if they were issued as commercial paper instead, right?

I've seen rumblings about another potential round of money market fund reform after March 2020. Here is one article I ran into about it: https://riabiz.com/a/2021/5/10/fidelity ... -spotlight

Could it be that there are actually good reasons for these companies to want to bypass money market funds and go straight to the investor?
smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

Makefile wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 8:09 pm
Stinky wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:13 am It's interesting that Toyota Motor Credit Corporation is choosing to fund some of their financing needs through direct-lending from individuals, rather than issuing corporate debt or using commercial paper.

I'd definitely want to know if these notes have a rating from a major rating agency - and if so, what it is. I'd also like to know the ratings, if any, of TMCC's other debt.
I just noticed this thread with the additional posts about the rate change, and this is a good point.

It made me think about Vanguard's decision to exit the prime money market fund business last year. Prime money market funds would be the biggest market for these if they were issued as commercial paper instead, right?

I've seen rumblings about another potential round of money market fund reform after March 2020. Here is one article I ran into about it: https://riabiz.com/a/2021/5/10/fidelity ... -spotlight

Could it be that there are actually good reasons for these companies to want to bypass money market funds and go straight to the investor?
Good observations. Thank you also for sharing that article. This particular statement in there, had caught my eye: "Yet if money market funds can't offer higher returns than typical bank accounts--and they add more risk--then it's curtains, says Gary Zimmerman, CEO of New York City RIA cash manager, MaxMyInterest, via email."

And whoa, are they planning, with those "reforms", to "break the dollar" and make those money market funds completely speculative and arbitrary? :)
Eowyn
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Eowyn »

stay_the_course wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:06 pm

Source on the US citizenship requirement? The FAQs https://www.incomedrivernotes.com/en.html#faqs seem to require only SSN and US address.
That's right. Based on personal experience, US Citizenship is not a requirement.
rooms222
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by rooms222 »

smihaila wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:18 pm I also found this:
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/#investments
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/weekly-rates

Does anyone know anything about this "1st Franklin Financial"?
It seems that any enrollment application is performed solely via snail mail (like Dominion Energy)?
They are an old-fashioned finance company based in the South, and only residents of Georgia can buy the demand notes. Reminds me of the Morris Plan of Indianapolis collapse. Dominion or GM would be my choice of those three at 1.5%.
smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

rooms222 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:10 pm
smihaila wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:18 pm I also found this:
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/#investments
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/weekly-rates

Does anyone know anything about this "1st Franklin Financial"?
It seems that any enrollment application is performed solely via snail mail (like Dominion Energy)?
They are an old-fashioned finance company based in the South, and only residents of Georgia can buy the demand notes. Reminds me of the Morris Plan of Indianapolis collapse. Dominion or GM would be my choice of those three at 1.5%.
Looks like 1st Franklin Financial has 3 investments available. And out of those 3, the "Commercial Paper" option is available also to non-Georgia residents, except for California:
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/faq
https://www.1ffc.com/investments/commercial-paper

3.50% for 180-260 days??
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

This thread has been quiet for the last month or so.

Toyota Income Driver Notes continue to pay 1.35%. That is one of the best rates available for "short-term" money.
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smihaila
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by smihaila »

Looks like at least one Canadian bank, is paying 1% for US dollar-denominated savings accounts, and CDIC protected.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by anonsdca »

Toyota Income Driver Notes continue to pay 1.35%. That is one of the best rates available for "short-term" money.
[/quote]

I can't beat it, so I am in. Thanks for all you do Stinky in this and MYGA area. Total excellence.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by MishkaWorries »

Nothing new here. I've moved new money in and I've taken out a little bit to pay for a vacation. It's easy to move move in and out. I can't complain.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by MarkRoulo »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:27 am
RetiredNewbie wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:33 am Even though I consider myself risk-averse, I applied because I believe that there is an extremely small chance that Toyota will default on their notes. Their long-standing commitment to quality demonstrates to me that they care about their reputation. I would not buy this type of note from Ford, because in my observation quality hasn’t meant much to Ford in many years; from what I have seen in their dealings with my family and neighbors.
There is another point of view on this.

Toyota, while a pioneer in hybrids, is far behind the curve on all electric vehicles (I’m not counting the Mirai which is only sold in California).

Ford, meanwhile, is having a hugely successful launch of the Mach-E, which almost outsold Tesla last month.

....
I’m a bit late to this thread, but I don’t understand your last sentence.

Tesla is selling about 23,000 cars per month in the US (more globally).

Mach E sales (US, I think) were something like:
250
3,700
2,500
1,950

for Jan - April. In which month did the Mach E almost outsell Tesla?
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

anonsdca wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:07 pm
I can't beat it, so I am in. Thanks for all you do Stinky in this and MYGA area. Total excellence.
Thank you for your kind words.

I think that it’s useful to bump this thread every once in a while. That allows folks who hadn’t previously followed it to catch up.

As can be seen in the last few posts, there are strong opinions on this particular investment (as there are with many investments). As always, people need to gather information so they can make the best decision for themselves.

I’m an investor in these notes. So far, so good.
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tj
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by tj »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by anonsdca »


As can be seen in the last few posts, there are strong opinions on this particular investment (as there are with many investments). As always, people need to gather information so they can make the best decision for themselves.

I’m an investor in these notes. So far, so good.
Any investment outside BH philosophy, including a simple cash instrument like this one, garners strong opposition. I dont worry about those folks.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by MishkaWorries »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
But a lot of us have expected cash needs in the next few years. We're a few years away from retirement and we need cash for the pre-social security years, cash for a new car in a couple of years and cash to buy a new fancy home for retirement. We're just swimming in cash and not enough places to stash it. We have bonds, stable value finds, I-bonds, Tips and Toyota. I'm not going to risk delaying my retirement because the market throws a temper tantrum and drops 50%.
We plan. G-d laughs.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

MishkaWorries wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:04 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
But a lot of us have expected cash needs in the next few years. We're a few years away from retirement and we need cash for the pre-social security years, cash for a new car in a couple of years and cash to buy a new fancy home for retirement. We're just swimming in cash and not enough places to stash it. We have bonds, stable value finds, I-bonds, Tips and Toyota. I'm not going to risk delaying my retirement because the market throws a temper tantrum and drops 50%.
I offered suggestions for those scenarios, too.
tj
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by tj »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
Why would a boglehead easily be able to meet maintenance margin? Because they have a bond/cash heavy portfolio? If so, why take margin in the first place rather than just have a more aggressive port? Just trying to understand...
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

tj wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 am
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
Why would a boglehead easily be able to meet maintenance margin? Because they have a bond/cash heavy portfolio? If so, why take margin in the first place rather than just have a more aggressive port? Just trying to understand...
You only run into trouble with forced liquidation if you are taking concentrated or extreme risks like 100% of your portfolio in GME, or if you run a large margin balance with a more diversified portfolio. A portfolio of broad equity index ETFs isn't going to drop by 90%, realistically. And if it does, you probably will have plenty of higher priorities worries like which bread line to stand in, LOL.
tj
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by tj »

whodidntante wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:37 pm
tj wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 am
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm This offering is frankly crap and I would like to suggest some alternatives that I find superior. I suggest looking to see if you have access to a higher yielding stable value fund in your 401k. Then you can locate equity index ETFs in your taxable space, and trade to get money to restore your desired asset allocation. Or use margin loans at IB if you wish to defer capital gains, which you could pay off from cash flow, if desired.

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
Why would a boglehead easily be able to meet maintenance margin? Because they have a bond/cash heavy portfolio? If so, why take margin in the first place rather than just have a more aggressive port? Just trying to understand...
You only run into trouble with forced liquidation if you are taking concentrated or extreme risks like 100% of your portfolio in GME, or if you run a large margin balance with a more diversified portfolio. A portfolio of broad equity index ETFs isn't going to drop by 90%, realistically. And if it does, you probably will have plenty of higher priorities worries like which bread line to stand in, LOL.

That didn't answer the question.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by drummer »

I have some money in Toyota Income Driver Notes. I don't consider this as any sort of long term income/investment strategy. It's simply a place to park some cash that I previously had in a high yield savings account since it's paying about 1% more.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

tj wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:21 pm
whodidntante wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:37 pm
tj wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:01 am
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:41 pm
tj wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:02 pm

How much can one safely margin from IB without "risking" loss? Is there even a number?
Reg T maintenance margin requires only 25%, though the broker is free to impose more stringent requirements and some do. E.g., margin requirements for meme stocks were 100% for a while, and maybe still are at some places. Portfolio margin can allow for maintenance margin below that of Reg T, but that should not be expected if you hold nothing but equity index ETFs in the account as I was suggesting.

I imagine a lot of leverage-averse Bogleheads would so easily meet maintenance margin even after a 50% market decline that liquidation is not a realistic concern, even after a substantial margin debit. And that's really who I would suggest might want to take advantage of a setup like that for unexpected cash needs.
Why would a boglehead easily be able to meet maintenance margin? Because they have a bond/cash heavy portfolio? If so, why take margin in the first place rather than just have a more aggressive port? Just trying to understand...
You only run into trouble with forced liquidation if you are taking concentrated or extreme risks like 100% of your portfolio in GME, or if you run a large margin balance with a more diversified portfolio. A portfolio of broad equity index ETFs isn't going to drop by 90%, realistically. And if it does, you probably will have plenty of higher priorities worries like which bread line to stand in, LOL.

That didn't answer the question.
Happy to try again.
Why would a boglehead easily be able to meet maintenance margin?
So what I actually said is that leverage-averse Bogleheads can. It's for two reasons. The first is that you are starting with no margin debt. The second is that as a Boglehead you have a portfolio that does not have concentrated/idiosyncratic risk.

Could this be a terminology issue? Maintenance margin is the amount of equity you have to keep to avoid a margin call or liquidation. But since IB does not do margin calls, I used the word liquidation.
Because they have a bond/cash heavy portfolio?
No. It would still hold true with a 100% equity portfolio.
If so, why take margin in the first place rather than just have a more aggressive port?
I agree that would not make sense. I was proposing this as an alternative if no taxable cash options are attractive. You could still keep cash in a tax-deferred account if desired.

You are unable to have a bunch of cash sitting in a brokerage account and simultaneously have a margin loan in that account. That's because any deposit to the core account will pay down your margin debt. That is how one goes about paying down a margin loan; you simply transfer money into the account. It might be sensible to have a bond fund there, but I would suggest keeping that in a tax-deferred account if possible.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by anonsdca »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
You are talking about chump change with these kinds of things. The folks who are trying to avoid market risk and achieve the highest possible return on cash have substantial dollars at play. Now TMCC just lowered their rate from 1.50% to 1.35%, but 1.5% was far better than 0.6% on most MM or short term CDs.

Longer term a MYGA can get you 2.3%. We are not talking $25K-$50K that you need to constantly move to get a bonus or having to deal with direct deposits and a certain number of transactions. No Sir.

The highest return with the only activity being adding from time-to-time. It needs to be that simple when you have significant cash.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by tj »

anonsdca wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:01 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
You are talking about chump change with these kinds of things. The folks who are trying to avoid market risk and achieve the highest possible return on cash have substantial dollars at play. Now TMCC just lowered their rate from 1.50% to 1.35%, but 1.5% was far better than 0.6% on most MM or short term CDs.

Longer term a MYGA can get you 2.3%. We are not talking $25K-$50K that you need to constantly move to get a bonus or having to deal with direct deposits and a certain number of transactions. No Sir.

The highest return with the only activity being adding from time-to-time. It needs to be that simple when you have significant cash.
Why would someone ever need that much cash at a given time?
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by whodidntante »

anonsdca wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:01 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm

Also, you can prefer bank bonuses that pay upwards of 4% (sometimes well upwards), rewards checking that pays more, or T-mobile money to get FDIC insurance and 1%. To me, FDIC and 1% is better than betting Toyota is good for it when I need my money back.
You are talking about chump change with these kinds of things. The folks who are trying to avoid market risk and achieve the highest possible return on cash have substantial dollars at play. Now TMCC just lowered their rate from 1.50% to 1.35%, but 1.5% was far better than 0.6% on most MM or short term CDs.

Longer term a MYGA can get you 2.3%. We are not talking $25K-$50K that you need to constantly move to get a bonus or having to deal with direct deposits and a certain number of transactions. No Sir.

The highest return with the only activity being adding from time-to-time. It needs to be that simple when you have significant cash.
Having too much cash is a portfolio construction defect. It is a real drag (wakka wakka). Not saying that is the case for you.

MYGAs are a reasonable option if you aren't expecting to pay the surrender charge. Not cash like, though. The 1% bank account I mentioned has no requirements to meet and you can put as much as you would like in there.

I get that some people don't think bank bonuses are worth pursuing, but I have done very well. It seems that I live in a golden region for bank bonuses, but I also get the impression that I'm the only one who noticed here. So maybe other regions are just as good for those who notice.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by indexfundfan »

Has anyone changed the linked bank account? What is the process?
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by indexfundfan »

I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Thank you for the information.

I have banked with BBVA for over 20 years. Yesterday, I got a letter from BBVA that, due to their acquisition by (the evil) PNC, the two branches closest to me will be closing, and they will force me to change my account number to a PNC-issued one in October. So, whether I stay with (the evil) PNC or move to a credit union more convenient to me, I will also be changing account numbers soon.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by indexfundfan »

Stinky wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:19 am
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Thank you for the information.

I have banked with BBVA for over 20 years. Yesterday, I got a letter from BBVA that, due to their acquisition by (the evil) PNC, the two branches closest to me will be closing, and they will force me to change my account number to a PNC-issued one in October. So, whether I stay with (the evil) PNC or move to a credit union more convenient to me, I will also be changing account numbers soon.
The good thing was that a few hours after I emailed the bank-change request in the morning, the new bank account was already active when I logged on. I thought it was going to take a couple of days.

Note: I was also told there is a "pre-note" period for 3 to 4 business days. During this time, no deposit or withdrawal transactions will be processed, so plan your ACH-change timing properly.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Thomas93 »

indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Where on their web site do they post the info to e-mail their service center? On their web site I see a portal to compose a message, but I don't see a place to upload an attachment to include the "change form"? And the bottom of the "change form" on the second page just has instructions of where to mail it.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by indexfundfan »

Thomas93 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:00 am
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Where on their web site do they post the info to e-mail their service center? On their web site I see a portal to compose a message, but I don't see a place to upload an attachment to include the "change form"? And the bottom of the "change form" on the second page just has instructions of where to mail it.
The email address is dncustomerservice@bnymellon.com. The rep told me on the phone.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by jtl46 »

Who is eaccountservices.com? When you login that is who you are directed to.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by MishkaWorries »

jtl46 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:18 pm Who is eaccountservices.com? When you login that is who you are directed to.
It is BNY Mellon. They manage the income notes accounts for Toyota and GMAC (and maybe other automakers).
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by anonsdca »

Just another update.

GM's Right Notes is still 1.50%. I won't switch for the difference, but I might if TMCC lowers it further.

I check on the others as well, Mercedes, Dominion, Duke. All lower than TMCC

1st Franklin has some interesting products, including a senior demand note at 2%. Anyone use them? They dont appear to have online access or sign up.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by tj »

Stinky wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:19 am
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Thank you for the information.

I have banked with BBVA for over 20 years. Yesterday, I got a letter from BBVA that, due to their acquisition by (the evil) PNC, the two branches closest to me will be closing, and they will force me to change my account number to a PNC-issued one in October. So, whether I stay with (the evil) PNC or move to a credit union more convenient to me, I will also be changing account numbers soon.
What purpose are you utilizing the Toyota notes for? I should have asked during the Zoom!
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

tj wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:54 pm
Stinky wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:19 am
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Thank you for the information.

I have banked with BBVA for over 20 years. Yesterday, I got a letter from BBVA that, due to their acquisition by (the evil) PNC, the two branches closest to me will be closing, and they will force me to change my account number to a PNC-issued one in October. So, whether I stay with (the evil) PNC or move to a credit union more convenient to me, I will also be changing account numbers soon.
What purpose are you utilizing the Toyota notes for? I should have asked during the Zoom!
I’ve been getting some deferred comp payments in February of each year, and spending them down as the year goes on. I expect to get the payments for a few more years, pretty much until I start taking RMDs.

I’m using the Toyota Notes as a parking place for those monies.
Retired life insurance company financial executive who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Bronco Billy »

I have a Discover CD coming up at the first of September for renewal @ .40% and considering moving it to Toyota Income Driver Notes. Its guaranteed is as good as my other stock and Mutal funds investments.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by Stinky »

indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:29 am
Thomas93 wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:00 am
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:18 pm I thought I would provide an update for those who may need to update the linked bank account for Toyota Income Driver Notes.

To update your bank information, you are required to download a "Change Form" (PDF), complete and sign it. You can scan the completed form and email it to their service center. You also need to enclose a copy of your ID and proof of your new bank information (e.g. voided check or savings account statement).
Where on their web site do they post the info to e-mail their service center? On their web site I see a portal to compose a message, but I don't see a place to upload an attachment to include the "change form"? And the bottom of the "change form" on the second page just has instructions of where to mail it.
The email address is dncustomerservice@bnymellon.com. The rep told me on the phone.
I was less than impressed with Toyota Notes customer service when I changed my linked bank account.

On Day 1, I downloaded the change form and emailed the form to the address above. Several days passed, and my account was not updated. On Day 4, I called customer service rep, who could find no record of my first email and suggested I email again. I did resend the email, and confirmed that both messages went to the same address.

On Day 6, my account was still not updated. I called customer service rep, who promised to send an “urgent message” to the “processing team”, and then to call me back when she had an update. I never got a call back.

Finally, mid-day on Day 7, my new linked bank account showed up on the Notes website.

I hope that I never again need to change linked bank accounts with Toyota Notes.
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Re: Any experience with Toyota Income Driver Notes?

Post by indexfundfan »

I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe I got lucky, because mine was updated the same day I emailed in the form. But I will keep that in mind in case I need to update mine again.
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