Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything that significantly deviates from Taylor Larimore’s 3-fund portfolio should probably be touched with a 10’ pole, if at all.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
- Sandtrap
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
That is quite true, on the other hand.
DW and I have gotten a few free lunches for wasting our time at time share presentations.
Also, I've gotten quite a few gourmet lunches in upper floor glass towers of financial places.
j
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Product warranties
Company stock
Timeshares
Front end load mutual funds
Company stock
Timeshares
Front end load mutual funds
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
International stocks
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
International bonds
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I'm a size 10, so a 0.010 ER would be nice..
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." |
Thorin Oakenshield
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
TSLA!
"Simplify, simplify, simplify! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand…” - Thoreau
- Noobvestor
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
First, great list, Nis - I'm going to have to bookmark this one. I may have broken part of (10) some years back with about 2% of my net worth. I've so far gotten back some return, the rest remains illiquid, prospects uncertain, taxes a headache. Would take it back, but oh well. Simplicity!
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
- Noobvestor
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Then, two days later: -2500
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything recommended by an in-law.
For the ashes of his fathers, And the temples of his gods. |
Pensions= 2X yearly expenses. Portfolio= 40X yearly expenses.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
ETNs. I touched them once and got burned, expensive lesson.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Lol, hysterical
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I still have some individual stocks, but I got burned a few times. Here are worst ones:
Boston Market in the '90s - I thought it was a good concept, and the one in my neighborhood seemed to do good business. The restaurants stayed open, but the stockholders lost everything.
GAP, also in the '90s. I bought 1000 shares at $20 a share. During the internet boom, every company with a web site suddenly doubled in value. GAP went to about 50, and I felt pretty smart. The market crashed, and I got out at $20 per share. That was all within about 3 years.
I've also had some that have done very well, but I've become a believer in diversified mutual funds.
Boston Market in the '90s - I thought it was a good concept, and the one in my neighborhood seemed to do good business. The restaurants stayed open, but the stockholders lost everything.
GAP, also in the '90s. I bought 1000 shares at $20 a share. During the internet boom, every company with a web site suddenly doubled in value. GAP went to about 50, and I felt pretty smart. The market crashed, and I got out at $20 per share. That was all within about 3 years.
I've also had some that have done very well, but I've become a believer in diversified mutual funds.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Gold
International Bonds
Loaded Mutual Funds
Annuities
Financial Advisors
REIT funds, seriously burnt once never again.
Advice to self: K.I.S.S Keep It Simple Stupid
International Bonds
Loaded Mutual Funds
Annuities
Financial Advisors
REIT funds, seriously burnt once never again.
Advice to self: K.I.S.S Keep It Simple Stupid
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Bill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.centennialstate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
VT 60% / VFSUX 20% / TIPS 20%
- Sandtrap
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Any Real Estate investment with family, relatives, or “friends”!
Yikes !!!!!
j🏝
Yikes !!!!!
j🏝
Last edited by Sandtrap on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
In my real life, I am too chicken to buy anything other than more shares of funds that any Boglehead would buy.
But in my fantasy life, anything that trades on a market can trade at a value that's so far below its intrinsic worth that it makes for an excellent investment opportunity.
- Tim
But in my fantasy life, anything that trades on a market can trade at a value that's so far below its intrinsic worth that it makes for an excellent investment opportunity.
- Tim
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Loaded mutual funds
- unclescrooge
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
What about co-ownership with millions of strangers in a business where you are a minority owner?Sandtrap wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:03 pmLife insurance: (self insured)tvubpwcisla wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm Examples: Stocks, Bonds, TIPS, Real Estate, Gold, Silver, CD's, Treasuries, Annuities, Care / Disability Insurance, Sectors, etc...
What would you NOT invest in and why?
Thanks!
Time Share, Fractional R/E Ownership: (no comment)
Physical Gold, Silver (other types of dry powder are better)
Alternatives : (not a good alternative)
Single stocks: (not for a boglehead)
Crypto Currency: (too esoteric)
Co-ownership of anything with family, friends, or strangers. (single ownership is best)
Anything "Leveraging"
j
- illumination
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Annuities and whole life insurance.
Private REITs
Private Equity (I know this can be lucrative but I feel like the sort of deals I would have access to would be the leftovers and I've also seen this first hand badly blow up in certain deals)
Municipal Bonds (the amount of risk being taken versus payout is completely out of whack in my opinion in certain states and cities)
There's lots of other investments that I'm biased against, but would buy if the right deal came along. Like land or rental properties. So I can't put those in the "10 foot pole" category.
Private REITs
Private Equity (I know this can be lucrative but I feel like the sort of deals I would have access to would be the leftovers and I've also seen this first hand badly blow up in certain deals)
Municipal Bonds (the amount of risk being taken versus payout is completely out of whack in my opinion in certain states and cities)
There's lots of other investments that I'm biased against, but would buy if the right deal came along. Like land or rental properties. So I can't put those in the "10 foot pole" category.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
- Limited Partnerships
- Franchises
- Time Shares
- Anything pitched on a TV infomercial between midnight and 6 AM
- Anything pitched on Facebook
- That insurance product pitched by Alex Trebek
- Franchises
- Time Shares
- Anything pitched on a TV infomercial between midnight and 6 AM
- Anything pitched on Facebook
- That insurance product pitched by Alex Trebek
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?pascalwager wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pmBill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.centennialstate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Non publicly traded REITs
Crypto currency
Any life insurance (besides term, but that's not an "investment")
"hot stocks"
Crypto currency
Any life insurance (besides term, but that's not an "investment")
"hot stocks"
$1 saved = >$1 earned. ✓
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Sharpe didn't necessarily agree with it, but he did mention such an argument.watchnerd wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:45 pmI thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?pascalwager wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pmBill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.centennialstate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
But what about government bonds? Some would say that the net public interest in such securities is zero, since a bond held by an investor is his or her asset and the obligation to pay interest and principal is a liability for those who will have to pay taxes in the future to cover such payments. An alternative view is that a government bond represents a claim on the future earnings of taxpayers and hence an investment in their human capital. While each argument has merits, we take the latter position.
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Yes, Sharpe includes lots of govt bonds, US and international. (The TIPS can be funds.)watchnerd wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:45 pmI thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?pascalwager wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pmBill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.centennialstate wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
VT 60% / VFSUX 20% / TIPS 20%
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Poles shorter than 6 ft. Keep your distance!
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything that generates a schedule K-1 statement.
- Taylor Larimore
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The Three-Fund Portfolio
finite_difference:finite_difference wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:03 pm Anything that significantly deviates from Taylor Larimore’s 3-fund portfolio should probably be touched with a 10’ pole, if at all.
I love your post.
The Three-Fund Portfolio
Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The Three-Fund Portfolio will help you to develop a sound asset allocation strategy, make smart investment selections, and guide the implementation of your plan."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I would not invest even one U. S. dollar in international equities.tvubpwcisla wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm Examples: Stocks, Bonds, TIPS, Real Estate, Gold, Silver, CD's, Treasuries, Annuities, Care / Disability Insurance, Sectors, etc...
What would you NOT invest in and why?
Thanks!
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
MLP - the tax forms were ridiculous and I'm not sure why I suckered into thinking the yield made them desirable anyway.
Real Estate (as in renting out to others) - I have NO interest in keeping up other houses, finding tenants, and dealing with more hassle than I already have with my own home.
Real Estate (as in renting out to others) - I have NO interest in keeping up other houses, finding tenants, and dealing with more hassle than I already have with my own home.
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Cryptocurrency of any sort
International bonds, equities or REITs
International bonds, equities or REITs
“You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.“ — Warren Buffett
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I'm the anti-govt bond guy. To answer a question from earlier, I'm 100% US stocks. Also I prefer not to sell crack to crack smokers.
Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
This. Almost.UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 pm I only invest in broad market index mutual funds with low expense ratios. If it isn't that, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Investing is simple, unless you pay someone to make it complex. The person you pay to complicate your life makes out well
You, not so much.
But I would be fine with adding a few things: cash, CDs and money market funds, to low cost broad market cap weighted index funds.
I don't but would not object to buying individual Treasury securities instead of Treasury funds.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either |
--Swedroe |
We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right |
--Fama
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything I can't explain to my wife in 10 minutes and have her understand.
Friar1610 |
50-ish/50-ish - a satisficer, not a maximizer
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I own cash, CDs, and money market funds, but I don't consider those to be investments. Those are my short and mid-term savings. They're not part of my asset allocation.afan wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:37 pmThis. Almost.UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 pm I only invest in broad market index mutual funds with low expense ratios. If it isn't that, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.
Investing is simple, unless you pay someone to make it complex. The person you pay to complicate your life makes out well
You, not so much.
But I would be fine with adding a few things: cash, CDs and money market funds, to low cost broad market cap weighted index funds.
I don't but would not object to buying individual Treasury securities instead of Treasury funds.
I would never want to complicate my life by owning individual treasuries when I can own a fund.
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything I don't understand or can't explain to both aging and developing family members easily.
Derivatives.
Most debt.
Shorting companies
Timeshares.
Preconstruction.
Anything a friend is pitching or too excited about.
Anything with high fees or low transparency.
Most stocks not in the top 500 global companies unless bought through an index.
Anything that doesn't lead to increased future cash flow (commodities, bitcoin, etc)
Anything people are getting excited and desperate about-bitcoin 2 years ago almost got me but I managed to say no long enough to see it crash back down.
If individual stocks, and I do not own much here- anything not a top shelf blue chip with a history of solid earnings and low debt.
Derivatives.
Most debt.
Shorting companies
Timeshares.
Preconstruction.
Anything a friend is pitching or too excited about.
Anything with high fees or low transparency.
Most stocks not in the top 500 global companies unless bought through an index.
Anything that doesn't lead to increased future cash flow (commodities, bitcoin, etc)
Anything people are getting excited and desperate about-bitcoin 2 years ago almost got me but I managed to say no long enough to see it crash back down.
If individual stocks, and I do not own much here- anything not a top shelf blue chip with a history of solid earnings and low debt.
- abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Easy: Anything from a sales man!
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
- abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
I will add the following:
* International stocks
* International REITs
* International bonds
* US REITs
* Cryptocurrency
* Gold
* Commodities
Give me a simple and effective Total Stock and Total Bond fund and I'll call it a day! Heck I'll take an S&P 500 fund if you have it.
The key to investment success is to live below your means, invest the difference, keep costs low, buy buy buy, and keep the investing easy.
All these funds, asset classes, or whatever the new buzz words are, is simply dancing on the head of a pin.
* International stocks
* International REITs
* International bonds
* US REITs
* Cryptocurrency
* Gold
* Commodities
Give me a simple and effective Total Stock and Total Bond fund and I'll call it a day! Heck I'll take an S&P 500 fund if you have it.
The key to investment success is to live below your means, invest the difference, keep costs low, buy buy buy, and keep the investing easy.
All these funds, asset classes, or whatever the new buzz words are, is simply dancing on the head of a pin.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything that is unsolicited, whether it be email, snail mail, or voice mail or browser popup or overlay.
Nothing to say, really.
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Haha, yes. In a similar vein, I would say anything that is pitched as having "equity-like returns with low correlation," anything "market neutral," or anything pitched solely as a "diversifier" but that doesn't actually return anything.nisiprius wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm6) Anything that is described as "bringing hedge-fund-like strategies to the mass affluent investor," or "for the first time, allowing retail investors to invest in assets and participate in strategies that were once available only to the wealthy." That lets out a number of AQR's offerings.
- abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Stay away! I wish they were not called REITs but still. I had a lot of mortgage REITs at one time. Familiar with a lot of companies and used to follow and listen to earnings calls. In my opinion it is only correct that mortgage REITs are classified as "financials" in the S&P 500 sector and not "real estate".Valuethinker wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:35 am mortgage REITs - these have far underperformed the REIT sector. Maybe there are some bargains out there, but just in case.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
- mokaThought
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
inverse ETFs
"October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August and February."
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Assuming the "guru" even produces a return!!!alfaspider wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:22 am Hedge funds. You too can give up a substantial portion of your returns for some "guru's" hot stock tips or some inscrutable algorithmic picker that do no better than VTI (often worse).
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hedge ... 2020-01-02
Cheers
- abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Buying and selling calls and puts.
Did that "back in the day".
Did that "back in the day".
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Anything Cramer recommends buying.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
You're kidding us, right? I'm bullish on international stocks. They're so undervalued right now, especially Japan and emerging markets.
DFJ: Japan - small cap dividend |
DGS: emerging, small cap dividend |
MOTI: international moat stocks |
IQIN: large cap, developed |
DGRE: emerging, dividend growth |
GWX and FNDC: small cap, developed
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
My list of things I'd never invest in:
1. Airline stocks: They're the cigar butt stocks that Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger have panned.
2. Gold and other commodities: What's the intrinsic value?
3. Cryptocurrencies: Ditto, and they're even riskier than commodities. At least metals, wheat, and other tangible assets have inherent practical uses. Cryptocurrencies don't. You can't eat them, live in them, wear them, etc.
4. Anything leveraged: The possibility of forced liquidation is a deal breaker.
5. Anything inverse/short: Ditto.
6. Bonds (for now): There's so much risk for a tiny yield that doesn't even keep up with inflation. At least most other asset bubbles have the hollow promise of a jackpot. The bond asset bubble doesn't, and that's what makes it the most idiotic bubble in the history of the world.
7. US large cap stocks (for now): They're the most expensive group of stocks right now. International stocks are 2 to 3 times cheaper in terms of price/book ratio.
8. Futures
9. Options, puts, calls: The deadlines are a deal breaker for me. Getting the direction right is hard enough. I can't time the market at all.
10. Derivatives
11. Bonds with call or prepayment features: The bond issuer is saying, "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose!" I thought that buying bonds is a bet on lower interest rates. When you buy bonds with call or prepayment features, you're betting that interest rates thread the needle.
12. Anything that Wade Cook promotes.
1. Airline stocks: They're the cigar butt stocks that Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger have panned.
2. Gold and other commodities: What's the intrinsic value?
3. Cryptocurrencies: Ditto, and they're even riskier than commodities. At least metals, wheat, and other tangible assets have inherent practical uses. Cryptocurrencies don't. You can't eat them, live in them, wear them, etc.
4. Anything leveraged: The possibility of forced liquidation is a deal breaker.
5. Anything inverse/short: Ditto.
6. Bonds (for now): There's so much risk for a tiny yield that doesn't even keep up with inflation. At least most other asset bubbles have the hollow promise of a jackpot. The bond asset bubble doesn't, and that's what makes it the most idiotic bubble in the history of the world.
7. US large cap stocks (for now): They're the most expensive group of stocks right now. International stocks are 2 to 3 times cheaper in terms of price/book ratio.
8. Futures
9. Options, puts, calls: The deadlines are a deal breaker for me. Getting the direction right is hard enough. I can't time the market at all.
10. Derivatives
11. Bonds with call or prepayment features: The bond issuer is saying, "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose!" I thought that buying bonds is a bet on lower interest rates. When you buy bonds with call or prepayment features, you're betting that interest rates thread the needle.
12. Anything that Wade Cook promotes.
DFJ: Japan - small cap dividend |
DGS: emerging, small cap dividend |
MOTI: international moat stocks |
IQIN: large cap, developed |
DGRE: emerging, dividend growth |
GWX and FNDC: small cap, developed
- abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
Agree and well said. To think my old 6 fund portfolio had the three you would not touch: international stocks, international bonds, and international REITs. Just horrible performance at a ton of risk.Ferdinand2014 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:45 pm Cryptocurrency of any sort
International bonds, equities or REITs
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole
If you are not invested in bonds, then are you 100% in stocks or do you hold cash?jhsu802701 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:43 pm My list of things I'd never invest in:
6. Bonds (for now): There's so much risk for a tiny yield that doesn't even keep up with inflation. At least most other asset bubbles have the hollow promise of a jackpot. The bond asset bubble doesn't, and that's what makes it the most idiotic bubble in the history of the world.