Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

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finite_difference
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by finite_difference »

Anything that significantly deviates from Taylor Larimore’s 3-fund portfolio should probably be touched with a 10’ pole, if at all.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Sandtrap »

watchnerd wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:31 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:30 pm Anything that requires a "salesman" to "sell to me" with a rehearsed presentation. . . .

j :happy
But sometimes you get a free steak dinner.
That is quite true, on the other hand.
DW and I have gotten a few free lunches for wasting our time at time share presentations.
Also, I've gotten quite a few gourmet lunches in upper floor glass towers of financial places.
j :happy
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92irish
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by 92irish »

Spinola wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:57 am
Anything with an ER greater than my shoe size with a decimal point in front of it..

:mrgreen:

Anything with an ER greater than my shoe size with a decimal point and a zero in front of it.
Eddiecaps1980
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Eddiecaps1980 »

Product warranties
Company stock
Timeshares
Front end load mutual funds
bitdocmd
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by bitdocmd »

International stocks
jhawktx
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by jhawktx »

International bonds
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Spinola
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Spinola »

92irish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:28 pm
Spinola wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:57 am
Anything with an ER greater than my shoe size with a decimal point in front of it..

:mrgreen:

Anything with an ER greater than my shoe size with a decimal point and a zero in front of it.
I'm a size 10, so a 0.010 ER would be nice.. :beer
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L82GAME
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by L82GAME »

TSLA!
"Simplify, simplify, simplify! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand…” - Thoreau
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Noobvestor
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Noobvestor »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm 10) Any investment that requires me to sign a legal paper certifying that I eat risk for breakfast and don't mind losing more money than I have.
First, great list, Nis - I'm going to have to bookmark this one. I may have broken part of (10) some years back with about 2% of my net worth. I've so far gotten back some return, the rest remains illiquid, prospects uncertain, taxes a headache. Would take it back, but oh well. Simplicity! :beer
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
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Noobvestor
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Noobvestor »

StormShadow wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:54 pm
Poorman wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:54 pmBitcoin
+1000
Then, two days later: -2500 :shock: :wink:
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
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sergeant
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by sergeant »

Anything recommended by an in-law.
For the ashes of his fathers, And the temples of his gods. | Pensions= 2X yearly expenses. Portfolio= 40X yearly expenses.
GibsonL6s
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by GibsonL6s »

ETNs. I touched them once and got burned, expensive lesson.
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RootSki
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by RootSki »

ddurrett896 wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:00 am Tiger Sanctuary
Lol, hysterical :D
Small Savanna
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Small Savanna »

I still have some individual stocks, but I got burned a few times. Here are worst ones:

Boston Market in the '90s - I thought it was a good concept, and the one in my neighborhood seemed to do good business. The restaurants stayed open, but the stockholders lost everything.

GAP, also in the '90s. I bought 1000 shares at $20 a share. During the internet boom, every company with a web site suddenly doubled in value. GAP went to about 50, and I felt pretty smart. The market crashed, and I got out at $20 per share. That was all within about 3 years.

I've also had some that have done very well, but I've become a believer in diversified mutual funds.
DNeal
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by DNeal »

Gold
International Bonds
Loaded Mutual Funds
Annuities
Financial Advisors
REIT funds, seriously burnt once never again.

Advice to self: K.I.S.S Keep It Simple Stupid
pascalwager
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by pascalwager »

centennialstate wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
Bill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.

So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
VT 60% / VFSUX 20% / TIPS 20%
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Sandtrap
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Sandtrap »

Any Real Estate investment with family, relatives, or “friends”!

😬😬 Yikes !!!!!

j🏝
Last edited by Sandtrap on Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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timboktoo
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by timboktoo »

In my real life, I am too chicken to buy anything other than more shares of funds that any Boglehead would buy.

But in my fantasy life, anything that trades on a market can trade at a value that's so far below its intrinsic worth that it makes for an excellent investment opportunity.

- Tim
wxz76
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by wxz76 »

Loaded mutual funds
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unclescrooge
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by unclescrooge »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:03 pm
tvubpwcisla wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm Examples: Stocks, Bonds, TIPS, Real Estate, Gold, Silver, CD's, Treasuries, Annuities, Care / Disability Insurance, Sectors, etc...

What would you NOT invest in and why?

Thanks!

:sharebeer
Life insurance: (self insured)
Time Share, Fractional R/E Ownership: (no comment)
Physical Gold, Silver (other types of dry powder are better)
Alternatives : (not a good alternative)
Single stocks: (not for a boglehead)
Crypto Currency: (too esoteric)
Co-ownership of anything with family, friends, or strangers. (single ownership is best)
Anything "Leveraging"

j :happy
What about co-ownership with millions of strangers in a business where you are a minority owner? :mrgreen:
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illumination
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by illumination »

Annuities and whole life insurance.

Private REITs

Private Equity (I know this can be lucrative but I feel like the sort of deals I would have access to would be the leftovers and I've also seen this first hand badly blow up in certain deals)

Municipal Bonds (the amount of risk being taken versus payout is completely out of whack in my opinion in certain states and cities)

There's lots of other investments that I'm biased against, but would buy if the right deal came along. Like land or rental properties. So I can't put those in the "10 foot pole" category.
tealeaves
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by tealeaves »

- Limited Partnerships
- Franchises
- Time Shares
- Anything pitched on a TV infomercial between midnight and 6 AM
- Anything pitched on Facebook
- That insurance product pitched by Alex Trebek
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watchnerd
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by watchnerd »

pascalwager wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pm
centennialstate wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
Bill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.

So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
I thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?
Global stocks, IG/HY bonds, gold & digital assets at market weights 75% / 19% / 6% || LMP: TIPS ladder
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Cubicle
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Cubicle »

Non publicly traded REITs
Crypto currency
Any life insurance (besides term, but that's not an "investment")
"hot stocks"
$1 saved = >$1 earned. ✓
Dominic
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Dominic »

watchnerd wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:45 pm
pascalwager wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pm
centennialstate wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
Bill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.

So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
I thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?
Sharpe didn't necessarily agree with it, but he did mention such an argument.
But what about government bonds? Some would say that the net public interest in such securities is zero, since a bond held by an investor is his or her asset and the obligation to pay interest and principal is a liability for those who will have to pay taxes in the future to cover such payments. An alternative view is that a government bond represents a claim on the future earnings of taxpayers and hence an investment in their human capital. While each argument has merits, we take the latter position.
pascalwager
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by pascalwager »

watchnerd wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:45 pm
pascalwager wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:28 pm
centennialstate wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:35 pm Government bonds. While popular, not capital investment, not supportive of free-market principles.
Bill Sharpe refers to this in RISMAT, like there's a school of thought that excludes govt bonds from the market portfolio, although he tends to take the opposite position.

So your portfolio doesn't benefit from the lower correlation of govt bonds with stocks. What does your portfolio look like?
I thought Sharpe had TIPS ladders in the risk free port and all tradable bonds (including Treasuries) in the risky / market port?
Yes, Sharpe includes lots of govt bonds, US and international. (The TIPS can be funds.)
VT 60% / VFSUX 20% / TIPS 20%
phantom0308
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by phantom0308 »

Poles shorter than 6 ft. Keep your distance!
DonIce
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by DonIce »

Anything that generates a schedule K-1 statement.
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Taylor Larimore
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The Three-Fund Portfolio

Post by Taylor Larimore »

finite_difference wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:03 pm Anything that significantly deviates from Taylor Larimore’s 3-fund portfolio should probably be touched with a 10’ pole, if at all.
finite_difference:

I love your post.

The Three-Fund Portfolio

Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The Three-Fund Portfolio will help you to develop a sound asset allocation strategy, make smart investment selections, and guide the implementation of your plan."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
Trader Joe
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Trader Joe »

tvubpwcisla wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:42 pm Examples: Stocks, Bonds, TIPS, Real Estate, Gold, Silver, CD's, Treasuries, Annuities, Care / Disability Insurance, Sectors, etc...

What would you NOT invest in and why?

Thanks!

:sharebeer
I would not invest even one U. S. dollar in international equities.
dukeblue219
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by dukeblue219 »

MLP - the tax forms were ridiculous and I'm not sure why I suckered into thinking the yield made them desirable anyway.

Real Estate (as in renting out to others) - I have NO interest in keeping up other houses, finding tenants, and dealing with more hassle than I already have with my own home.
Ferdinand2014
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Ferdinand2014 »

Cryptocurrency of any sort
International bonds, equities or REITs
“You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.“ — Warren Buffett
centennialstate
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by centennialstate »

I'm the anti-govt bond guy. To answer a question from earlier, I'm 100% US stocks. Also I prefer not to sell crack to crack smokers.😁
Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
afan
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by afan »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 pm I only invest in broad market index mutual funds with low expense ratios. If it isn't that, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.
This. Almost.

Investing is simple, unless you pay someone to make it complex. The person you pay to complicate your life makes out well
You, not so much.

But I would be fine with adding a few things: cash, CDs and money market funds, to low cost broad market cap weighted index funds.

I don't but would not object to buying individual Treasury securities instead of Treasury funds.
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by friar1610 »

Anything I can't explain to my wife in 10 minutes and have her understand.
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UpperNwGuy
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by UpperNwGuy »

afan wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:37 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 pm I only invest in broad market index mutual funds with low expense ratios. If it isn't that, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.
This. Almost.

Investing is simple, unless you pay someone to make it complex. The person you pay to complicate your life makes out well
You, not so much.

But I would be fine with adding a few things: cash, CDs and money market funds, to low cost broad market cap weighted index funds.

I don't but would not object to buying individual Treasury securities instead of Treasury funds.
I own cash, CDs, and money market funds, but I don't consider those to be investments. Those are my short and mid-term savings. They're not part of my asset allocation.

I would never want to complicate my life by owning individual treasuries when I can own a fund.
Slowtraveler
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Slowtraveler »

Anything I don't understand or can't explain to both aging and developing family members easily.
Derivatives.
Most debt.
Shorting companies
Timeshares.
Preconstruction.
Anything a friend is pitching or too excited about.
Anything with high fees or low transparency.
Most stocks not in the top 500 global companies unless bought through an index.
Anything that doesn't lead to increased future cash flow (commodities, bitcoin, etc)
Anything people are getting excited and desperate about-bitcoin 2 years ago almost got me but I managed to say no long enough to see it crash back down.
If individual stocks, and I do not own much here- anything not a top shelf blue chip with a history of solid earnings and low debt.
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abuss368
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by abuss368 »

Easy: Anything from a sales man!
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by abuss368 »

I will add the following:

* International stocks
* International REITs
* International bonds
* US REITs
* Cryptocurrency
* Gold
* Commodities

Give me a simple and effective Total Stock and Total Bond fund and I'll call it a day! Heck I'll take an S&P 500 fund if you have it.

The key to investment success is to live below your means, invest the difference, keep costs low, buy buy buy, and keep the investing easy.

All these funds, asset classes, or whatever the new buzz words are, is simply dancing on the head of a pin.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
palaheel
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by palaheel »

Anything that is unsolicited, whether it be email, snail mail, or voice mail or browser popup or overlay.
Nothing to say, really.
grog
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by grog »

nisiprius wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:29 pm6) Anything that is described as "bringing hedge-fund-like strategies to the mass affluent investor," or "for the first time, allowing retail investors to invest in assets and participate in strategies that were once available only to the wealthy." That lets out a number of AQR's offerings.
Haha, yes. In a similar vein, I would say anything that is pitched as having "equity-like returns with low correlation," anything "market neutral," or anything pitched solely as a "diversifier" but that doesn't actually return anything.
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by abuss368 »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:35 am mortgage REITs - these have far underperformed the REIT sector. Maybe there are some bargains out there, but just in case.
Stay away! I wish they were not called REITs but still. I had a lot of mortgage REITs at one time. Familiar with a lot of companies and used to follow and listen to earnings calls. In my opinion it is only correct that mortgage REITs are classified as "financials" in the S&P 500 sector and not "real estate".
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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mokaThought
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by mokaThought »

inverse ETFs :twisted:
"October: This is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May, March, June, December, August and February."
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Harry Livermore
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Harry Livermore »

alfaspider wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:22 am Hedge funds. You too can give up a substantial portion of your returns for some "guru's" hot stock tips or some inscrutable algorithmic picker that do no better than VTI (often worse).
Assuming the "guru" even produces a return!!!
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hedge ... 2020-01-02
Cheers
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by abuss368 »

Buying and selling calls and puts.

Did that "back in the day".
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Freefun
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Freefun »

Anything Cramer recommends buying.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
jhsu802701
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by jhsu802701 »

bitdocmd wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:43 pm International stocks
You're kidding us, right? I'm bullish on international stocks. They're so undervalued right now, especially Japan and emerging markets.
DFJ: Japan - small cap dividend | DGS: emerging, small cap dividend | MOTI: international moat stocks | IQIN: large cap, developed | DGRE: emerging, dividend growth | GWX and FNDC: small cap, developed
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by jhsu802701 »

My list of things I'd never invest in:
1. Airline stocks: They're the cigar butt stocks that Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger have panned.
2. Gold and other commodities: What's the intrinsic value?
3. Cryptocurrencies: Ditto, and they're even riskier than commodities. At least metals, wheat, and other tangible assets have inherent practical uses. Cryptocurrencies don't. You can't eat them, live in them, wear them, etc.
4. Anything leveraged: The possibility of forced liquidation is a deal breaker.
5. Anything inverse/short: Ditto.
6. Bonds (for now): There's so much risk for a tiny yield that doesn't even keep up with inflation. At least most other asset bubbles have the hollow promise of a jackpot. The bond asset bubble doesn't, and that's what makes it the most idiotic bubble in the history of the world.
7. US large cap stocks (for now): They're the most expensive group of stocks right now. International stocks are 2 to 3 times cheaper in terms of price/book ratio.
8. Futures
9. Options, puts, calls: The deadlines are a deal breaker for me. Getting the direction right is hard enough. I can't time the market at all.
10. Derivatives
11. Bonds with call or prepayment features: The bond issuer is saying, "Heads, I win. Tails, you lose!" I thought that buying bonds is a bet on lower interest rates. When you buy bonds with call or prepayment features, you're betting that interest rates thread the needle.
12. Anything that Wade Cook promotes.
DFJ: Japan - small cap dividend | DGS: emerging, small cap dividend | MOTI: international moat stocks | IQIN: large cap, developed | DGRE: emerging, dividend growth | GWX and FNDC: small cap, developed
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by abuss368 »

Ferdinand2014 wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:45 pm Cryptocurrency of any sort
International bonds, equities or REITs
Agree and well said. To think my old 6 fund portfolio had the three you would not touch: international stocks, international bonds, and international REITs. Just horrible performance at a ton of risk.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Micronite
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Re: Investments you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole

Post by Micronite »

jhsu802701 wrote: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:43 pm My list of things I'd never invest in:
6. Bonds (for now): There's so much risk for a tiny yield that doesn't even keep up with inflation. At least most other asset bubbles have the hollow promise of a jackpot. The bond asset bubble doesn't, and that's what makes it the most idiotic bubble in the history of the world.
If you are not invested in bonds, then are you 100% in stocks or do you hold cash?
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