Social Security Survivor Benefits
Social Security Survivor Benefits
Im trying to understand the output from opensocialsecurity.com. I will be filing for a survivor benefit, then waiting until I am 70 to file for a retirement benefit on my own record. So far, so good.
I expected to stop working as an independent contractor in September of this year, but have now decided to work one more year until September 2024. I will not reach normal retirement age for a survivor until 2025. My earnings are likely to be such that I will fail the SS earnings test if I work at least 11 months of the year.
When I input that I would stop working in September 2023, the calculator suggested I apply for survivor benefits to start that month, meaning I will get 3 payments in 2023.
But, when I say I will stop working in September 2024, the calculator suggested I apply for survivor benefits to start in December, 2023, but due I believe to the earnings test, I would not get my first payment until October 2024.
In another post, Oblivious Investor said that the best start date for survivor benefits “might be the month she stops working, or January of the year she stops working, or her survivor FRA, or January of the year she reaches her survivor FRA.” viewtopic.php?t=377772
I’m trying to understand why the calculator says that filing in December 2023 optimizes my survivor benefit. I note that the calculator returns the same benefit payments as long as I file no later than the month I actually stop working.
I expected to stop working as an independent contractor in September of this year, but have now decided to work one more year until September 2024. I will not reach normal retirement age for a survivor until 2025. My earnings are likely to be such that I will fail the SS earnings test if I work at least 11 months of the year.
When I input that I would stop working in September 2023, the calculator suggested I apply for survivor benefits to start that month, meaning I will get 3 payments in 2023.
But, when I say I will stop working in September 2024, the calculator suggested I apply for survivor benefits to start in December, 2023, but due I believe to the earnings test, I would not get my first payment until October 2024.
In another post, Oblivious Investor said that the best start date for survivor benefits “might be the month she stops working, or January of the year she stops working, or her survivor FRA, or January of the year she reaches her survivor FRA.” viewtopic.php?t=377772
I’m trying to understand why the calculator says that filing in December 2023 optimizes my survivor benefit. I note that the calculator returns the same benefit payments as long as I file no later than the month I actually stop working.
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Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
The earnings test does not eliminate your claimed social security benefit but rather reduces it temporarily. That likely explains what you are seeing in the calculations.
Please see the following:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/rtea.html
Cheers
Please see the following:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/rtea.html
Cheers
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Thanks. I was thinking it was something like that, but would have expected to see a change in the amounts payable depending on when I claim. But all I see is $0 benefits between claiming and month before the last month I work. Then exactly the same amounts paid each month until I claim my retirement benefits at age 70. And even if I wait to claim until I am at my survivor normal retirement age, there is no change in monthly benefits.Silk McCue wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:45 am The earnings test does not eliminate your claimed social security benefit but rather reduces it temporarily. That likely explains what you are seeing in the calculations.
Please see the following:
https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/rtea.html
Cheers
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Unrelated to your question but on the subject of survivor benefits. I started the application yesterday. I called around 330 PM and was on hold for about an hour. After a bunch of questions to identify myself and my late husband she asked what the maiden name of my late husband’s mother! That threw me for a loop. I texted his son but he didn’t know it either. So she asked his father’s name. Well his father abandoned the family when he was young so I had no idea. I was sure that the call was going to be ended but she kept going without indicating that I wouldn’t have to spend time finding that info out. At one point I did mention my MILs first name but got no acknowledgment. At the end of the questions = eureka - she set up the next appointment in the process. I asked if I had to find the maiden name and what if I couldn’t. She said don’t worry - they have many ways to verify identity. Just fy eye!
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Thanks for the heads up and best of luck to you in finalizing your application.Agent 99 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:33 am Unrelated to your question but on the subject of survivor benefits. I started the application yesterday. I called around 330 PM and was on hold for about an hour. After a bunch of questions to identify myself and my late husband she asked what the maiden name of my late husband’s mother! That threw me for a loop. I texted his son but he didn’t know it either. So she asked his father’s name. Well his father abandoned the family when he was young so I had no idea. I was sure that the call was going to be ended but she kept going without indicating that I wouldn’t have to spend time finding that info out. At one point I did mention my MILs first name but got no acknowledgment. At the end of the questions = eureka - she set up the next appointment in the process. I asked if I had to find the maiden name and what if I couldn’t. She said don’t worry - they have many ways to verify identity. Just fy eye!
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
The earnings test always uses the Full Retirement Age for retirement benefits, even if you are receiving widow(er)'s benefits.SuzBanyan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:49 am I expected to stop working as an independent contractor in September of this year, but have now decided to work one more year until September 2024. I will not reach normal retirement age for a survivor until 2025. My earnings are likely to be such that I will fail the SS earnings test if I work at least 11 months of the year.
The FRA for widow(er)s is only used to calculate the reduction factor for early claims.
If two dates pay the same nominal benefits, Open Social Security will recommend an earlier claim.
It does not take into account the actual timing of the benefit payments, only the nominal benefits for each month.
If you file for benefits to begin in December 2023, you will initially get a smaller benefit payment in October 2024. Sometime after FRA for widow(er)s, Social Security will recalculate the benefits, adjust the monthly benefit payment to the correct amount, and pay a lump sum to make up for the smaller initial benefits. Unlike the IRS, Social Security does not pay interest. Also, the recalculation is done manually in a batch process, which may be done up to 2 years after reaching FRA. If your Social Security benefits are taxable and you are managing your income to max out a lower tax bracket, you will not know how much Social Security is paying you each year until December!
If you file for benefits to begin in October 2024, you will receive the correct widow(er)'s benefit immediately, with no adjustment, no lump sum, and no unpredictable timing.
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Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
This book is worth getting, you may be able to get it from a library:
Get What's Yours: The Secrets to Maxing Out Your Social Security
The author also has a modeling tool, I paid for a subscription many years ago, it's possible it offers no benefit over the free tools available.
https://maximizemysocialsecurity.com/
I am a customer of Fidelity, many years ago they ran their ss modeling tool for me, same results as the one above, it was free for me.
Get What's Yours: The Secrets to Maxing Out Your Social Security
The author also has a modeling tool, I paid for a subscription many years ago, it's possible it offers no benefit over the free tools available.
https://maximizemysocialsecurity.com/
I am a customer of Fidelity, many years ago they ran their ss modeling tool for me, same results as the one above, it was free for me.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
The first phone call is the protective filing. The second phone call or in-person interview is the actual benefits application.
When applying for widow(er)'s benefits, be careful not to apply for your own retirement benefits at the same time. Social Security claims specialists usually try to be helpful by applying for all benefits. Since you cannot apply for widow(er)'s benefits online, you have to make sure the claims specialist doesn't do this.
Tell the claims specialist that you want to apply for only widow(er)'s benefits, not retirement benefits. Make sure the application summary contains a statement to restrict the scope of the application. If you apply in person, don't get up from your seat until you've read the application summary. If you apply by phone, the application summary will be mailed to you. Read it and call Social Security immediately if the statement is not there.
The Office of the Inspector General found that 82% of dually-entitled widow(er)s incorrectly file for their own retirement benefits even though their widow(er)'s benefits are higher and their retirement benefits would be higher at age 70: https://oig-files.ssa.gov/audits/full/A-09-18-50559.pdf
82% is very bad odds. Make sure you're in the other 18%.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Thank you! That is very helpful. It looks like if I am still working but before FRA it doesn’t really matter when I file. I will earn the same when when I stop working or the same when I reach FRA for survivor benefits, whichever comes first.talzara wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:42 pmThe earnings test always uses the Full Retirement Age for retirement benefits, even if you are receiving widow(er)'s benefits.SuzBanyan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:49 am I expected to stop working as an independent contractor in September of this year, but have now decided to work one more year until September 2024. I will not reach normal retirement age for a survivor until 2025. My earnings are likely to be such that I will fail the SS earnings test if I work at least 11 months of the year.
The FRA for widow(er)s is only used to calculate the reduction factor for early claims.
If two dates pay the same nominal benefits, Open Social Security will recommend an earlier claim.
It does not take into account the actual timing of the benefit payments, only the nominal benefits for each month.
If you file for benefits to begin in December 2023, you will initially get a smaller benefit payment in October 2024. Sometime after FRA for widow(er)s, Social Security will recalculate the benefits, adjust the monthly benefit payment to the correct amount, and pay a lump sum to make up for the smaller initial benefits. Unlike the IRS, Social Security does not pay interest. Also, the recalculation is done manually in a batch process, which may be done up to 2 years after reaching FRA. If your Social Security benefits are taxable and you are managing your income to max out a lower tax bracket, you will not know how much Social Security is paying you each year until December!
If you file for benefits to begin in October 2024, you will receive the correct widow(er)'s benefit immediately, with no adjustment, no lump sum, and no unpredictable timing.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
thank you for the heads up. I already claimed my benefits early at 62. I’m hoping that will protect me from them thinking I’m filing for my benefits again! I didn’t know this fact until recently and I was really nervous that the rep was going to say too bad. I said “survivor” every time.talzara wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:12 pmThe first phone call is the protective filing. The second phone call or in-person interview is the actual benefits application.
When applying for widow(er)'s benefits, be careful not to apply for your own retirement benefits at the same time. Social Security claims specialists usually try to be helpful by applying for all benefits. Since you cannot apply for widow(er)'s benefits online, you have to make sure the claims specialist doesn't do this.
Tell the claims specialist that you want to apply for only widow(er)'s benefits, not retirement benefits. Make sure the application summary contains a statement to restrict the scope of the application. If you apply in person, don't get up from your seat until you've read the application summary. If you apply by phone, the application summary will be mailed to you. Read it and call Social Security immediately if the statement is not there.
The Office of the Inspector General found that 82% of dually-entitled widow(er)s incorrectly file for their own retirement benefits even though their widow(er)'s benefits are higher and their retirement benefits would be higher at age 70: https://oig-files.ssa.gov/audits/full/A-09-18-50559.pdf
82% is very bad odds. Make sure you're in the other 18%.
The rep said I didn’t have to have an in=person appointment. That’s contrary to what I was told when I filed for my early benefit. I was told I would have to bring the marriage cert. When I mentioned that the other day the rep said not necessary. I thought well they probably know we filed our taxes jointly.
I’m supposed to get a call back within 7 days because the appointment calendar was booked on their end.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
If you file for December 2023, your benefits will be calculated for December 2023, even though you will be retiring in September 2024.
If you file for September 2024, your benefits will be higher because you will be closer to FRA.
In both cases, Social Security will pay you the correct benefit in nominal dollars after FRA. However, September 2024 will have a smaller reduction factor, so the adjustment will be smaller, and the lump sum will be smaller.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
The SSA employee who takes the protective filing is not a claims specialist.Agent 99 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:34 pm The rep said I didn’t have to have an in=person appointment. That’s contrary to what I was told when I filed for my early benefit. I was told I would have to bring the marriage cert. When I mentioned that the other day the rep said not necessary. I thought well they probably know we filed our taxes jointly.
When you actually file for benefits, you will be speaking to a claims specialist. They will tell you what documentation they need to process your application.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Again thanks for the explanation. I will stay in my chair until I hear the magic number which will be more than what I am receiving.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Now I’m lost again, as open social security.com gives me the same benefits starting after my last month of work no matter when I file (as long as I file by that month). There is no increase, either in waiting to FRA. Is it possible that this is because my spouse starting taking his benefits at 62?talzara wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:51 pmIf you file for December 2023, your benefits will be calculated for December 2023, even though you will be retiring in September 2024.
If you file for September 2024, your benefits will be higher because you will be closer to FRA.
In both cases, Social Security will pay you the correct benefit in nominal dollars after FRA. However, September 2024 will have a smaller reduction factor, so the adjustment will be smaller, and the lump sum will be smaller.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
Yes, it's possible. If you've reached the widow(er)'s limit, then delaying will not increase your benefit because you're already getting the maximum benefit.SuzBanyan wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:43 pm Now I’m lost again, as open social security.com gives me the same benefits starting after my last month of work no matter when I file (as long as I file by that month). There is no increase, either in waiting to FRA. Is it possible that this is because my spouse starting taking his benefits at 62?
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
UPDATEtalzara wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:02 pmThe SSA employee who takes the protective filing is not a claims specialist.Agent 99 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:34 pm The rep said I didn’t have to have an in=person appointment. That’s contrary to what I was told when I filed for my early benefit. I was told I would have to bring the marriage cert. When I mentioned that the other day the rep said not necessary. I thought well they probably know we filed our taxes jointly.
When you actually file for benefits, you will be speaking to a claims specialist. They will tell you what documentation they need to process your application.
I didn’t hear from SSA within the timeframe + grace days so I called again, waited on hold listening to awful music. The rep checked and said the local office may be busy and that I’m still on the list.
Yesterday I received the official call. Caller ID displayed “Public Service”. I would have hesitated answering but ironically earlier in the day I had a “public service” call from my city’s ombudsman because I reported a stray dog in the neighborhood. So I thought she was calling back to tell me the dog was found and taken in for care. I answered more ebullient than my usual annoyed hello.
Turns out it was the SSA claims specialist who later admitted that it’s rare to be welcomed so nicely! Anyway, I was in the car and he asked a long list of questions - things like dates of previous marriages (eons ago) for both of us and other long lost details of our lives together and before we met. I’m not sure these were required or just informational.
He said I would be receiving an increase of about $X but not to quote him. The number was significantly below what I was expecting. I said that I had taken my SSA at 62. Then he replied, “oh I missed that.” He didn’t give me the final number but he conceded it would be much more than he initially stated. So even when things seemed to be going right there are plenty of opportunities for mistakes!
I will either have to bring a copy of our marriage certificate to the local office or mail it back in the envelope he is sending.
All in all it went smoothly apart from the shock of the wrong payout estimate.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
They were supposed to give you an appointment time so you could've been prepared to answer the call. However, I'm glad to hear that you were able to apply for benefits successfully.Agent 99 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:55 pm I didn’t hear from SSA within the timeframe + grace days so I called again, waited on hold listening to awful music. The rep checked and said the local office may be busy and that I’m still on the list.
Yesterday I received the official call. Caller ID displayed “Public Service”. I would have hesitated answering but ironically earlier in the day I had a “public service” call from my city’s ombudsman because I reported a stray dog in the neighborhood. So I thought she was calling back to tell me the dog was found and taken in for care. I answered more ebullient than my usual annoyed hello.
Re: Social Security Survivor Benefits
I should have said that he gave me the option of setting up an appointment or doing it on the spot. I chose to do it then to avoid any delay. Thanks for your earlier guidance.