Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdest?

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Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdest?

Post by GaryA505 »

Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdest?

I mean y'all know VFINX/VFIAX, VTSAX/VTSMX, VGTSX/VTIAX and VBMFX/VBTLX of course.

But then they have (or had) some weird stuff like the now-defunct Managed Payout Funds.
And what about VMNFX (Market Neutral Fund)?
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by stan1 »

Vanguard is a very large business that attempts to anticipate and meet the demands of their many and varied customers.

Amazon sells many items. Most I have no interest in buying but I'm sure someone else does want to buy those items.

Sometimes businesses develop new product lines that are successful, other times product lines are not successful (or become less successful over time) and get discontinued. It's a typical business cycle. Over decades, I think we can observe that Vanguard tries to build its assets under management by attracting large amounts of money into their products in hopes of building economies of scale to manage it more efficiently than other competing businesses. Sometimes they do great, sometimes their success becomes their own greatest enemy, and sometimes they fail.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by goblue100 »

I don't think the managed payout funds were weird. I liked the idea of them, just think the execution was lacking. I think the timing might have been poor as well, I think they were launched right before the 2008 crash.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by LadyGeek »

GaryA505 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:08 pm And what about VMNFX (Market Neutral Fund)?
I remember discussing that with Gus Sauter at one of the Bogleheads Conference. He looked at me and said "It's more of an academic exercise and is quite a challenge for the traders to keep it neutral relative to the market."

He was proud that they could actually manage the fund to accomplish that.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by secondopinion »

GaryA505 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:08 pm And what about VMNFX (Market Neutral Fund)?
It is not a weird offering since many major fund providers have such a fund. But $50,000 as a minimum is a major deterrent; by the time the theoretical benefits can be obtained with that minimum, I would probably be spending down my portfolio and it is no longer needed.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Normchad »

I do think it’s curious that they have some really good actively managed funds. Looking at you Wellington.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by alex_686 »

I have seen lots of bazar funds and ETF.

Everything that I have seen Vangaurd do is pretty plain vanilla and road tested by other funds first. The exception is their leadership in plain vanilla index funds.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by GaryA505 »

Normchad wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 pm I do think it’s curious that they have some really good actively managed funds. Looking at you Wellington.
Yes, the mutual fund that has outperformed (on a risk-adjusted basis) a 65/35 index fund allocation over the last 36 years. That one.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

One of the Vanguard funds that we bought was the Vanguard Asset-Allocation Fund started in 1989. It was a popular fund and became part of Vanguard's Life Strategy Funds. Mellon Capital Management was the investment advisor who would simply change the fund's mix from stocks and bonds based on the advisor's forecasts.

From 1989 through 2007 the Asset-Allocation Fund enjoyed an annual return of 11.2%. Unfortunately, in 2008, the fund's return was -36.3, a far greater loss than the -22.2% decline in the balanced index standard. Over the full four years, from 2007 to 2011, the fund's cumulative return was minus -13.7% versus the plus +10.0 % return in its balanced index target. Eventually Vanguard's management decided to merge the fund into the Vanguard Balanced Index Fund in 2012.*

Lesson learned: If the Mellon experts cannot successfully market-time stocks and bonds -- I know I am stupid to try.

* Copied from Mr. Bogle's book "Stay The Course."

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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by GaryA505 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:40 pm Bogleheads:

One of the Vanguard funds that we bought was the Vanguard Asset-Allocation Fund started in 1989. It was a popular fund and became part of Vanguard's Life Strategy Funds. Mellon Capital Management was the investment advisor who would simply change the fund's mix from stocks and bonds based on the advisor's forecasts.

From 1989 through 2007 the Asset-Allocation Fund enjoyed an annual return of 11.2%. Unfortunately, in 2008, the fund's return was -36.3, a far greater loss than the -22.2% decline in the balanced index standard. Over the full four years, from 2007 to 2011, the fund's cumulative return was minus -13.7% versus the plus +10.0 % return in its balanced index target. Eventually Vanguard's management decided to merge the fund into the Vanguard Balanced Index Fund in 2012.*

Lesson learned: If the Mellon experts cannot successfully market-time stocks and bonds -- I know I am stupid to try.

* Copied from Mr. Bogle's book "Stay The Course."

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom "I do not know of anybody who has done market timing successfully. I don't even know anybody who knows anybody who has done it successfully and consistently."
Just for fun I tried to look up the Vanguard Asset-Allocation Fund so I could see the return history. VAAPX, closed in 2011?
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by GaryA505 »

I also found this old BH thread for VAAPX:
viewtopic.php?t=12249
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by asset_chaos »

Remember Vanguard serves individuals, advisors, and institutions. At any given time each of those broad groups may have wildly differing priorities, needs, and, yes, whims or fads that are exercising their minds. If Vanguard creates a fund because enough institutional investors or advisors want such a thing doesn't mean it's meant to be good for or aimed at me. I just ignore the Vanguard funds that don't apply to me---or at best look at them as curiosities.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Lawrence of Suburbia »

Normchad wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 pm I do think it’s curious that they have some really good actively managed funds. Looking at you Wellington.
Now that I've gotten out of Wellington-managed stuff and into indexed stuff (Target 2025), Wellington and Wellesley are probably going to take off ... :oops:
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by dboeger1 »

Lawrence of Suburbia wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:09 am
Normchad wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 pm I do think it’s curious that they have some really good actively managed funds. Looking at you Wellington.
Now that I've gotten out of Wellington-managed stuff and into indexed stuff (Target 2025), Wellington and Wellesley are probably going to take off ... :oops:
Thanks for the hot tip!
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by watchnerd »

Lawrence of Suburbia wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 2:09 am
Normchad wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 pm I do think it’s curious that they have some really good actively managed funds. Looking at you Wellington.
Now that I've gotten out of Wellington-managed stuff and into indexed stuff (Target 2025), Wellington and Wellesley are probably going to take off ... :oops:
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by nisiprius »

(accidentally overwritten, sorry...)
Last edited by nisiprius on Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by GaryA505 »

Sixty seven cents, now that's a dip!
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by GaryA505 »

Those Buffer ETFs look like they work somewhat like a fixed indexed annuity, no?
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by DSBH »

Why doesn't Vanguard have LifeStrategy-like funds which limit International stocks/bonds to 20% of stock/bond AA - it's weird :confused
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by watchnerd »

DSBH wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:35 am Why doesn't Vanguard have LifeStrategy-like funds which limit International stocks/bonds to 20% of stock/bond AA - it's weird :confused
I think having 20% international stock would be weird when global market cap weight is closer to 40%.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

The lack of a long term TIPS fund is weird.

USD-hedged foreign bond funds are weird.

The low amount of TIPS and high amount of USD-hedged foreign bonds in TDF and LS funds is weird.

The lack of internationally diversified sector funds is weird.

The advisor select funds are weird.

The lack of a balanced fund diversified into a third asset class is weird (so long, Managed Allocation / Payout / whatever).
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Hacksawdave »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:40 pm Bogleheads:

One of the Vanguard funds that we bought was the Vanguard Asset-Allocation Fund started in 1989. It was a popular fund and became part of Vanguard's Life Strategy Funds. Mellon Capital Management was the investment advisor who would simply change the fund's mix from stocks and bonds based on the advisor's forecasts.

From 1989 through 2007 the Asset-Allocation Fund enjoyed an annual return of 11.2%. Unfortunately, in 2008, the fund's return was -36.3, a far greater loss than the -22.2% decline in the balanced index standard. Over the full four years, from 2007 to 2011, the fund's cumulative return was minus -13.7% versus the plus +10.0 % return in its balanced index target. Eventually Vanguard's management decided to merge the fund into the Vanguard Balanced Index Fund in 2012.*

Lesson learned: If the Mellon experts cannot successfully market-time stocks and bonds -- I know I am stupid to try.

* Copied from Mr. Bogle's book "Stay The Course."

Best wishes.
Taylor
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Oh yes, I bought the AA fund VAAPX for my brand-new Roth IRA in 1998. I finally dumped it when the manager’s luck ran out in 2000-2001 and he got every timing move wrong. I didn’t drill down far enough in the prospectus when I bought the fund. I didn’t realize it was a market timing fund until it started moving in the direction of the 10-year treasury in 2000, I knew something was up. I split the sale between Total Stock and Wellington in my Roth and haven’t changed since.

The only bad mistake fund I have ever bought at Vanguard.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by nisiprius »

000 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:45 am ...The lack of a long term TIPS fund is weird...
Using the definition that "anything that differs from my druthers is weird," the fact that VAIPX, the general TIPS fund, isn't an index fund is weird.

I'd love to know the behind-the-scenes explanation. I assume that it's hard to convert an active fund into an index fund. And I assume that having both a nominally-active and an index fund for intermediate TIPS would be weird, as the difference between them would probably be similar to the difference between the Vanguard Inflation-protected Securities and the TIP ETF:

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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

nisiprius wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:36 am Here's "weird:"

SQQQ, the ProShares Inverse QQQ fund, which would have turned an initial investment of $10,000 into sixty-seven cents.
A 'daily' fund, of course. So by shorting the NASDAQ and reseting leverage daily, it's obviously going to lose as a buy-and-hold investment. But it does what it's supposed to: gives you the intra-day short Nasdaq return.

I know some believe you can treat daily funds as buy-and-hold investments (Hedgefundie, for example). I don't like it myself. Introduces a whole new sequence of returns risk. Quite pointless (imo) now too, as most moves tend to happen after hours these days.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

For me, the lack of exposure to gold and other real assets is a bit weird – considering what a huge part of the global economy these are.

So when things like stagflation come along, there aren't many Vanguard funds that aren't going to haemorrhage value. And we can call them 'the market' and 'market return', but the real market is (I think, still) mostly gold and real assets.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by watchnerd »

Logan Roy wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:20 am For me, the lack of exposure to gold and other real assets is a bit weird – considering what a huge part of the global economy these are.

So when things like stagflation come along, there aren't many Vanguard funds that aren't going to haemorrhage value. And we can call them 'the market' and 'market return', but the real market is (I think, still) mostly gold and real assets.
Real assets are only partially securitized.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Gaston »

FYI that according to statista.com, Vanguard has about 410 investment funds of various types around the world. Blackrock has nearly 1100. I guess their strategy is to cover every conceivable niche.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by nisiprius »

Logan Roy wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:20 am For me, the lack of exposure to gold and other real assets is a bit weird – considering what a huge part of the global economy these are.
Gold?

I wouldn't take it as authoritative and I haven't looked into how they got their numbers, but Cambria Funds' Global Asset Allocation Fund, GAA,
...aims to reflect the market portfolio of investable assets.

The Cambria Global Asset Allocation ETF targets investing in approximately 29 ETFs that reflect the global universe of assets consisting of domestic and foreign stocks, bonds, real estate, commodities and currencies.
And it is only 3.42% invested in gold.

As for "real assets," since 2019 Vanguard has offered VCMDX, the Vanguard Commodity Strategy Fund, and the Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund since 1996.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by burritoLover »

Doesn't Vanguard have the largest AUM for active funds in the world? That seems a bit surprising to me on the surface. They certainly don't have the weirdest funds - Ishares has all kinds of stuff that is odd (among mega brokerages).
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by nisiprius »

burritoLover wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:38 am Doesn't Vanguard have the largest AUM for active funds in the world? That seems a bit surprising to me on the surface.
That doesn't sound right, though it might be. Let's see... their bigg-EST individual active funds are almost certainly Wellington, $104 billion and Wellesley, $56. How about some of the others? Windsor? $23 billion. So I dunno, $200 billion for Wellington and Wellesley combined, maybe ten funds with an average of $15 billion each for another $150... $350 billion total.

Fidelity Contrafund, $100 billion. Magellan, $25 billion even today. Hard to figure what the "tail" of their very many smaller active funds are.

Dimensional is said to manage a total of $652 billion, and since I don't think any of their funds are officially index funds--not even DFUSX which tracks the S&P 500?--they can only be classified as "active." I think it's at least possible that the DFUSX might have more non-index stock AUM than Vanguard.

If it's true that Vanguard has the most, it's probably only because of Vanguard's bond funds, most of which are technically active funds.

So I think, to use the language of one of the Internet news fact-checkers, the answer is probably "needs context."
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by burritoLover »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:52 am
burritoLover wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:38 am Doesn't Vanguard have the largest AUM for active funds in the world? That seems a bit surprising to me on the surface.
That doesn't sound right, though it might be. Let's see... their bigg-EST individual active funds are almost certainly Wellington, $104 billion and Wellesley, $56. How about some of the others? Windsor? $23 billion. So I dunno, $200 billion for Wellington and Wellesley combined, maybe ten funds with an average of $15 billion each for another $150... $350 billion total.

Fidelity Contrafund, $100 billion. Magellan, $25 billion even today. Hard to figure what the "tail" of their very many smaller active funds are.

Dimensional is said to manage a total of $652 billion, and since I don't think any of their funds are officially index funds--not even DFUSX which tracks the S&P 500?--they can only be classified as "active." I think it's at least possible that the DFUSX might have more non-index stock AUM than Vanguard.

If it's true that Vanguard has the most, it's probably only because of Vanguard's bond funds, most of which are technically active funds.

So I think, to use the language of one of the Internet news fact-checkers, the answer is probably "needs context."
Yeah, the dude from a "random walk on wall street" book said on a podcast but he didn't clarify exactly what he meant. Vanguard says they have 70 active funds - maybe adding the AUM all up on all of those gets significant fast.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Mr. Buzzkill »

Most weird thing about VMNFX in my opinion is the expense ratio. Unusually high, especially for a Vanguard fund. Not a very BH offering, it would seem.
A strategy that works only in bull markets isn’t much of a strategy. Anyway, four dollars a pound.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:11 am
Logan Roy wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:20 am For me, the lack of exposure to gold and other real assets is a bit weird – considering what a huge part of the global economy these are.
Gold?

I wouldn't take it as authoritative and I haven't looked into how they got their numbers, but Cambria Funds' Global Asset Allocation Fund, GAA,
...aims to reflect the market portfolio of investable assets.

The Cambria Global Asset Allocation ETF targets investing in approximately 29 ETFs that reflect the global universe of assets consisting of domestic and foreign stocks, bonds, real estate, commodities and currencies.
And it is only 3.42% invested in gold.

As for "real assets," since 2019 Vanguard has offered VCMDX, the Vanguard Commodity Strategy Fund, and the Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund since 1996.
Every attempt I've seen to construct a global market portfolio produces a different result. Gold's market cap is about $13tn vs the S&P500s's $35tn.

The real estate fund is still listed shares, rather than direct exposure. It doesn't seem to offer much in the way of diversification. Personally it unnerves me to have too much just in financial assets.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Mr. Buzzkill wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:19 am Most weird thing about VMNFX in my opinion is the expense ratio. Unusually high, especially for a Vanguard fund. Not a very BH offering, it would seem.
ER for long-short funds has to include borrowing costs of shorts per regulations.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Logan Roy wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:06 am Every attempt I've seen to construct a global market portfolio produces a different result. Gold's market cap is about $13tn vs the S&P500s's $35tn.

The real estate fund is still listed shares, rather than direct exposure. It doesn't seem to offer much in the way of diversification. Personally it unnerves me to have too much just in financial assets.
Kinda hard to put unlisted real estate in a mutual fund with daily pricing.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by secondopinion »

000 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:10 pm
Mr. Buzzkill wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:19 am Most weird thing about VMNFX in my opinion is the expense ratio. Unusually high, especially for a Vanguard fund. Not a very BH offering, it would seem.
ER for long-short funds has to include borrowing costs of shorts per regulations.
Correct. The actual ER for going towards management is 0.25%, which is very low for such a fund.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by er999 »

There are a lot weirder etfs from companies other than vanguard. For example here’s an etf focused on pet care:
https://www.proshares.com/our-etfs/strategic/pawz

0.5% expense ratio, not recommended.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

000 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:13 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:06 am Every attempt I've seen to construct a global market portfolio produces a different result. Gold's market cap is about $13tn vs the S&P500s's $35tn.

The real estate fund is still listed shares, rather than direct exposure. It doesn't seem to offer much in the way of diversification. Personally it unnerves me to have too much just in financial assets.
Kinda hard to put unlisted real estate in a mutual fund with daily pricing.
You'd do it in a closed end fund. Short of buying properties, it's about the only way to get exposure to real estate as an asset class.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Logan Roy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:34 pm You'd do it in a closed end fund. Short of buying properties, it's about the only way to get exposure to real estate as an asset class.
An interval fund maybe. I'm not sure regs would allow it in publicly traded CEFs which have NAV reporting requirements.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

000 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:34 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:34 pm You'd do it in a closed end fund. Short of buying properties, it's about the only way to get exposure to real estate as an asset class.
An interval fund maybe. I'm not sure regs would allow it in publicly traded CEFs which have NAV reporting requirements.
I think closed end property funds are quite common. You can also do it in a property authorised investment fund (PAIF).
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by nisiprius »

I am mildly surprised that nobody has yet lept to the defense of AARTX, the Stone Ridge Art Risk Premium Fund (an interval fund):
The Fund pursues its investment objective by investing, primarily in paintings, sculptures or other artistic objects (“Artwork”) from the Post-War and Contemporary collecting periods (each as described further below), as well as other collecting periods, created by artists that have an established track record of public auction sales (typically at least three years of public auction results).

The Fund may invest to a significant extent in... “Artwork Companies” that own Artwork... Investments in Artwork Companies are generally offered to investors through Regulation A offerings... Regulation A is an exemption from registration under the Securities Act (see “Investment Objective, Policies and Risk” below).
So among other things, it appears as if it is possible to have a registered security whose primary purpose is to hold unregistered securities?
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 am I think closed end property funds are quite common.
What are some tickers?
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by z3r0c00l »

Thanks for reminding me to check in on the market neutral fund before it inevitably goes belly up in a few years. We used to have a vanguard socially responsible fund in our 401K too, it was remarkably DOW-heavy, just basically 12% Apple. That too closed up, and let's not forget the VGPMX metals and mining fund which basically went way up in the 2000's then fell a ton and still trades at 2002 levels today. It changed into something different I think, but still holds about 25% metals/mining.

Now make fun of these as much as I do, I actually like the idea of lots of options. I think there should be a 300% SP500 ETF, a crypto ETF, a gold ETF, uranium and nuclear, etc... I just don't want to use them personally.
70% Global Stocks / 30% Bonds
Logan Roy
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

000 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:14 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 am I think closed end property funds are quite common.
What are some tickers?
I'm in the UK, so these'll be LON listed. A popular one is Tritax Big Box (BBOX). Or a more convention Custodian REIT (CREI).
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:35 pm
000 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:14 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 am I think closed end property funds are quite common.
What are some tickers?
I'm in the UK, so these'll be LON listed. A popular one is Tritax Big Box (BBOX). Or a more convention Custodian REIT (CREI).
Do those hold (and manage?) unlisted real estate directly? But are traded as CEFs?

As far as I know in the US a closed-end fund wouldn't be able to hold unlisted real estate, but an interval fund (or corporation/REIT obviously) could.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

000 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:47 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:35 pm
000 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:14 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 am I think closed end property funds are quite common.
What are some tickers?
I'm in the UK, so these'll be LON listed. A popular one is Tritax Big Box (BBOX). Or a more convention Custodian REIT (CREI).
Do those hold (and manage?) unlisted real estate directly? But are traded as CEFs?

As far as I know in the US a closed-end fund wouldn't be able to hold unlisted real estate, but an interval fund (or corporation/REIT obviously) could.
Yes. I wasn't aware of an issue with US CEFs.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by 000 »

Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:11 pm Yes. I wasn't aware of an issue with US CEFs.
From what I have seen it seems like CEFs play a bigger role in the UK than the US.
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Re: Does anyone think it's odd that Vanguard has some of the best mutual funds and ETFs but also has some of the weirdes

Post by Logan Roy »

000 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:40 pm
Logan Roy wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:11 pm Yes. I wasn't aware of an issue with US CEFs.
From what I have seen it seems like CEFs play a bigger role in the UK than the US.
I get that impression too. There's a long history of them here, with many existing Investment Trusts dating back to the early 1900s or before. Foreign & Colonial Investment Trust was established in 1868. And still doing quite well:
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... st-ord-25p

What makes them so compelling during times of pessimism like this is being able to buy assets on quite substantial discounts. Another interesting one, North Atlantic Smaller Companies IT, has been on a 35% discount recently. And 15% of its portfolio is US treasury bills.
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... tst-ord-5p
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