Power outlets off and on

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mtmingus
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Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

We moved into a rental last week and have experienced a strange situation: some of the outlets go off for a min or longer once in a few hours. Come back by itself.
Fortunately the fridge and a few outlets inside the kitchen are not impacted. I run an extension for the tv, modem and router. But my monitor went off a few times today.
We don’t have power hangry appliances. Only some basic items.
Another thing I found amazing/odd: way too many outlets for each room: 17 without counting the closets for the 2 bedrooms, 5 cable connections.
livesoft
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by livesoft »

It reads like a question for the landlord. What did they tell you?
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hicabob
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by hicabob »

mtmingus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:18 pm We moved into a rental last week and have experienced a strange situation: some of the outlets go off for a min or longer once in a few hours. Come back by itself.
Fortunately the fridge and a few outlets inside the kitchen are not impacted. I run an extension for the tv, modem and router. But my monitor went off a few times today.
We don’t have power hangry appliances. Only some basic items.
Another thing I found amazing/odd: way too many outlets for each room: 17 without counting the closets for the 2 bedrooms, 5 cable connections.
Bad connections in the outlet(s) or flaky circuit breaker? If all the flaky ones go off at the same time I'd bet circuit breaker. Easy fix to replace it.
fogalog
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by fogalog »

I would immediately ask your landlord to send an electrician. It could be something simple ("loose" plug in outlet), but it could also be a failing breaker, rodents in walls, etc.

Edited to add: if you'd like to do more diagnosis on your own, I recommend everyone owns one of these.
RetiredAL
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by RetiredAL »

mtmingus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:18 pm We moved into a rental last week and have experienced a strange situation: some of the outlets go off for a min or longer once in a few hours. Come back by itself.
Fortunately the fridge and a few outlets inside the kitchen are not impacted. I run an extension for the tv, modem and router. But my monitor went off a few times today.
We don’t have power hangry appliances. Only some basic items.
Another thing I found amazing/odd: way too many outlets for each room: 17 without counting the closets for the 2 bedrooms, 5 cable connections.
Most likely, there is a loose connection in a box someplace, but may be in the power panel.

I had one with some overhead lights a few years back and found it by using a 2x4 to tap around each switch and light fixture. In my case, I found that the closest light to the panel was not the first connection on that leg, that it went to a further bedroom, where it was loose, then back to a closer bedroom and hallway.

It is dangerous to not get this fixed. It is the owner's responsibility to have this fixed, but if you can pinpoint it, it will help.
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mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

Electrician is requested. Could be a long wait, since fridge and Wi-Fi are ok.thanks everyone for your advice.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by michaelingp »

mtmingus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:18 pm
Another thing I found amazing/odd: way too many outlets for each room: 17 without counting the closets for the 2 bedrooms, 5 cable connections.
Odd, but not necessarily dangerous. My mother-in-law was a little obsessed with outlets. When she had a custom house built for her, every room had a score of outlets. She had the electricians install two duplex outlets about every six feet or so (i.e. you could plug 4 things in), which really added up. I never had a chance to ask her what THAT was all about, but it was her house.
dumbmoney
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by dumbmoney »

Note that loose electrical connections are a fire hazard (although being contained in electrical boxes mitigates the risk). So there's reason to demand a fix besides the nuisance factor.
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mhalley
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mhalley »

Maybe it’s like the switch in the Friends episode. Someone in another apartment keeps turning it on and off🎚️
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9WYGdstEVJQ
tev9876
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by tev9876 »

Are any of the lights by chance controlled by motion sensors? Could be someone tapped the fixture side of a motion sensor switch for an outlet.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by suemarkp »

Intermittent problems are difficult for an electrician to fix. The more data you have, the better chance of success he will have at finding the problem. Make a note of exactly which power receptacles lose power (maybe put a sticker or tape flag on them). When that happens, run around and test other receptacles to see if they are also dead (start with the ones in the same room and adjacent rooms). There is most likely an outlet with a loose connection. When that connection fails, it kills that outlet any others downstream of it.

The kitchen and dining room circuits will most likely be on their own circuits (no other rooms or lights on those). Same with a laundry room if you have one. So loose connections there would be contained to just those rooms.

The light switch control issue could be it too. You'll find these in rooms that have no built in ceiling light. The wall switch in rooms like that will probably control one receptacle, and it could be just half of it (e.g. upper outlet switched, lower one on all the time).
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bikesandbeers
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by bikesandbeers »

As others have noted keep diagnosing by yourself. Maybe put sticky notes on each outlet noting which ones have had issues and which ones are fine. If there are specific times or situations that outlets go it it would be great to know.

After my parents moved in, we discovered that some outlets were half switched and certain switched controlled both a ceiling light and and the lower outlet, and it was the switch around the corner in the hall.

My newer build addition had an electrician use the wrong color wires for a 3 way switch. when I tried to upgrade it to a smart switch, it literally took my father-in-law and I 8 hours to figure it out. I would have been very angry if I was paying a professional electrician for those 8 hours.

loose white in the wall are very dangerous, as our breakers that down actually break if there is a short. Keep on your landlord and get it fixed.
wilked
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by wilked »

suemarkp wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 11:17 pm Intermittent problems are difficult for an electrician to fix. The more data you have, the better chance of success he will have at finding the problem. Make a note of exactly which power receptacles lose power (maybe put a sticker or tape flag on them). When that happens, run around and test other receptacles to see if they are also dead (start with the ones in the same room and adjacent rooms). There is most likely an outlet with a loose connection. When that connection fails, it kills that outlet any others downstream of it.

The kitchen and dining room circuits will most likely be on their own circuits (no other rooms or lights on those). Same with a laundry room if you have one. So loose connections there would be contained to just those rooms.

The light switch control issue could be it too. You'll find these in rooms that have no built in ceiling light. The wall switch in rooms like that will probably control one receptacle, and it could be just half of it (e.g. upper outlet switched, lower one on all the time).
This

I'll take it a step further.

Determine at least one outlet that is failing. Let's say it's the modem outlet. Now go to your electric panel and turn off the breaker that controls it (if you are not sure which one, get there by trial and error).

Now, with that breaker off, go see what outlets are 'dead' (check lights and appliances also). Everything associated with this breaker, label some how or another.

Once the electrician comes, she/he will hit the ground running with this info and you are much more likely not to have a follow up issue.

I'd also consider leaving the breaker off until the electrician arrives if you can do without it, will help ensure no safety issue.

Last point - don't let your landlord go more than a week before getting someone in - no reason they can't find an electrician to solve this
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by SmileyFace »

mtmingus wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:04 pm Electrician is requested. Could be a long wait, since fridge and Wi-Fi are ok.thanks everyone for your advice.
I wouldn't put up with a long wait. Electrical problems (lose wires, faulty circuit, whatever the problem is) can cause fires. I would insist on immediate diagnosis.
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mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

Thanks all.
Electrician is scheduled for this weekend. Finger crossed this person is experienced.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by sleepy06 »

fogalog wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:26 pm I would immediately ask your landlord to send an electrician. It could be something simple ("loose" plug in outlet), but it could also be a failing breaker, rodents in walls, etc.

Edited to add: if you'd like to do more diagnosis on your own, I recommend everyone owns one of these.
Agree on tester.
Take notes on any possible precipitating factors for the events.
Also handy to use a lamp to test outlets and what switches do what.
I label all of ours with a label maker and put the label in the position of on.
Might also rock back and forth with plug gently to see if any are loose.
I echo the sentiments of others that often electricians/plumbers work best when the problem is diagnosed, and they just have to determine appropriate solution and that solution is implemented to code.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by Kagord »

If it does turn out to be a rusty outlet located on an outside wall, you should check you don't have water intrusion (a likely cause as to why this happened) and repair that as well if so. Sometimes the repair is going down to the studs.
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mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

Kagord wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:23 pm If it does turn out to be a rusty outlet located on an outside wall, you should check you don't have water intrusion (a likely cause as to why this happened) and repair that as well if so. Sometimes the repair is going down to the studs.
A rusty outside outlet could impact the outlets inside the house?
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by SmileyFace »

mtmingus wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:58 am
Kagord wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:23 pm If it does turn out to be a rusty outlet located on an outside wall, you should check you don't have water intrusion (a likely cause as to why this happened) and repair that as well if so. Sometimes the repair is going down to the studs.
A rusty outside outlet could impact the outlets inside the house?
Kagord didn't say the outlet was outside - said "outside wall". Water could be getting into a wall - sometimes happens - and impacts internal outlets.
It is possible, of course, too that a not-so-good electrician could put an external outlet on the same circuit as internal ones - but not what Kagord meant.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by Mr. Rumples »

For lack of a better term, I had an electrical "ghost" in my house a few years ago. Some outlets would stop working, but the breakers would not trip. If I turned the breaker for the outlets on and off the outlets would work and then stop working again. The electrician could not find the cause.

So, the company - a large regional company - sent out their senior commercial electrician. He literally walked in the utility room, took one look at the panel and found the problem. He moved the hot water heater breaker to where it was isolated (sorry don't know these terms) from others. He said new breakers are so sensitive that they can stop working without tripping. It solved the problem. (Fortunately, the company only charged me for one trip.)
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:52 am For lack of a better term, I had an electrical "ghost" in my house a few years ago. Some outlets would stop working, but the breakers would not trip. If I turned the breaker for the outlets on and off the outlets would work and then stop working again. The electrician could not find the cause.

So, the company - a large regional company - sent out their senior commercial electrician. He literally walked in the utility room, took one look at the panel and found the problem. He moved the hot water heater breaker to where it was isolated (sorry don't know these terms) from others. He said new breakers are so sensitive that they can stop working without tripping. It solved the problem. (Fortunately, the company only charged me for one trip.)
Would these ghost outlets come back by themselves without any intervention, before the fix?

A “master electrician” (referred by the landlord) came yesterday, not surprised that he couldn’t find anything wrong with the electric box and some of these faulty/ghost outlets.
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mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

SmileyFace wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:33 am
mtmingus wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:58 am
Kagord wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:23 pm If it does turn out to be a rusty outlet located on an outside wall, you should check you don't have water intrusion (a likely cause as to why this happened) and repair that as well if so. Sometimes the repair is going down to the studs.
A rusty outside outlet could impact the outlets inside the house?
Kagord didn't say the outlet was outside - said "outside wall". Water could be getting into a wall - sometimes happens - and impacts internal outlets.
It is possible, of course, too that a not-so-good electrician could put an external outlet on the same circuit as internal ones - but not what Kagord meant.
If it were faulty wiring inside the wall, that could be a costly diagnosis and fix.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by Mr. Rumples »

I can't recall if they would come on by themselves again. I do remember that before he came out, the electrician said it would be expensive to try to find the fix; fortunately, it wasn't needed.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by suemarkp »

mtmingus wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:11 pm
Mr. Rumples wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:52 am For lack of a better term, I had an electrical "ghost" in my house a few years ago. Some outlets would stop working, but the breakers would not trip. If I turned the breaker for the outlets on and off the outlets would work and then stop working again. The electrician could not find the cause.

So, the company - a large regional company - sent out their senior commercial electrician. He literally walked in the utility room, took one look at the panel and found the problem. He moved the hot water heater breaker to where it was isolated (sorry don't know these terms) from others. He said new breakers are so sensitive that they can stop working without tripping. It solved the problem. (Fortunately, the company only charged me for one trip.)
Would these ghost outlets come back by themselves without any intervention, before the fix?

A “master electrician” (referred by the landlord) came yesterday, not surprised that he couldn’t find anything wrong with the electric box and some of these faulty/ghost outlets.
A typical failure mode is a poor connection at a power receptacle that is daisy chained to more receptacles (and typically via a "backstabbed" connection). As something down stream runs, the current in the wire warms the poor connection. When it gets warm enough the connection fails and all those downstream outlets go dead. Since current is no longer flowing, the bad connection cools down and eventually starts working again. This can repeat for quite a while seeming like you have electrical ghosts that come and go. The amount of current needed to make the connection fail is usually fairly high at first, so only a combination of loads all running at once or something heavy like a space heater pushes the connection to failure quickly. This is why you need to trace what outlets are dead while they are dead.

The problem could also be in the breaker box if the wire on the breaker or neutral bar is not tight. But a bad connection there kills that entire circuit. Again, that is why you need to find what has died, as the poor connection is either the first dead outlet or the one upstream feeding it (or the breaker panel if it is the first outlet in the string).

This troubleshooting process can be a time suck. Tightening all the screws in the electrical panel would be what I would do and then maybe check the outlet you mention dies. Anything more is difficult without the failure occurring, especially if the landlord is paying for it because he will want to minimize cost.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by firebirdparts »

mtmingus wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:58 am
Kagord wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:23 pm If it does turn out to be a rusty outlet located on an outside wall, you should check you don't have water intrusion (a likely cause as to why this happened) and repair that as well if so. Sometimes the repair is going down to the studs.
A rusty outside outlet could impact the outlets inside the house?
Outlets are daisy chained. You wire 10 of them to each other and then one of the 10 you wire that one to a breaker. If outlets inside the house are on the daisy chain with one outside, then yes.

You need to find the breaker which affects the outlets that are "going out" and turn it off, then determine everything that is dead. That's how you figure out what's daisy chained in a finished house.

I'll just add here that this connection is getting hot and that's the one way that you'll know you found it. The electrician will likely find it by jiggling everything around in the process of looking at everything. When you pull the receptacles out to get a look at them, the loose connection may reveal itself.
This time is the same
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by dbr »

Also some circuits can be on a GFI someplace upstream and that device is doing something flakey.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by Hockey10 »

We once had a similar problem. The electrician came out and recommended that we install a new circuit breaker box, as ours was very old. I had been planning on replacing it anyway, so we had him install a new one.

But, the same intermittent power outage happened again a few days later. I called the electric utility this time. The electric company technician said that there was a loose connection where the wire from the telephone pole connects to the house. He spent a few minutes fixing that connection and that solved the problem.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by dbr »

Hockey10 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:18 am We once had a similar problem. The electrician came out and recommended that we install a new circuit breaker box, as ours was very old. I had been planning on replacing it anyway, so we had him install a new one.

But, the same intermittent power outage happened again a few days later. I called the electric utility this time. The electric company technician said that there was a loose connection where the wire from the telephone pole connects to the house. He spent a few minutes fixing that connection and that solved the problem.
We had a falling branch tear off the mast to the power line. Repair included just completely replacing all connections to the house, the meter, and the line to the power pole. With fifty year old facilities it can be a blessing to just replace all of it. The line pole to house was replaced by the utility. The new meter was on us.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by ncbill »

dbr wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:51 am Also some circuits can be on a GFI someplace upstream and that device is doing something flakey.
Tip: when replacing a decades-old GFCI outlet (no LED) that controls multiple downstream outlets your new GFCI (with LED) won't reset if "load" & "line" were originally installed backwards but worked just fine with the original GFCI outlet, as I found out not too long ago.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by JDave »

dumbmoney wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:02 pm Note that loose electrical connections are a fire hazard (although being contained in electrical boxes mitigates the risk). So there's reason to demand a fix besides the nuisance factor.
- this is absolutely correct. Loose connections can arc - which can cause a fire. This is a safety issue, not a nuisance issue. A friend of mine had a serious house fire from just this problem. Wasn't burned, but spent 3 days in the ICU with smoke inhalation.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by suemarkp »

dbr wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:51 am Also some circuits can be on a GFI someplace upstream and that device is doing something flakey.
But a GFCI won't auto reset. A tripped GFCI can explain a dead outlet in some remote room, but it would restore when you push the GFCI reset button. Things that work, don't work, and magically work again would have to be a loose connection, or someone else flipping a switch or reset button without your knowledge.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

fogalog wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:26 pm I would immediately ask your landlord to send an electrician. It could be something simple ("loose" plug in outlet), but it could also be a failing breaker, rodents in walls, etc.

Edited to add: if you'd like to do more diagnosis on your own, I recommend everyone owns one of these.
That should be good for a static issue, but not help with an intermittent problem.
I have some old smoke/CO detectors that screech every time the power goes down or up
that might be more useful.
Last edited by VanGar+Goyle on Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

The second electrician thinks a rusty breaker box and corrosive wires, due to past and ongoing moisture damage, are the most likely culprit.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by neilpilot »

VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:11 pm
That should be good for a static issue, but not help with an intermittent problem.
I have some old smoke/CO2 detectors that screech every time the power goes down or up
that might be more useful.
I suggest you scrap those old smoke/CO2 detectors and install modern smoke/CO detectors.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by wilked »

mtmingus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:18 pm The second electrician thinks a rusty breaker box and corrosive wires, due to past and ongoing moisture damage, are the most likely culprit.
what did she/he do about it?
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mtmingus
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by mtmingus »

No work done yet. Wait for his back office to send estimates.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by VanGar+Goyle »

neilpilot wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:06 pm
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:11 pm
That should be good for a static issue, but not help with an intermittent problem.
I have some old smoke/CO2 detectors that screech every time the power goes down or up
that might be more useful.
I suggest you scrap those old smoke/CO2 detectors and install modern smoke/CO detectors.
That may be a good idea. I plan to replace them when they stop working, just like my cell phone.
CU says that to replace carbon monoxide detectors every five years and smoke detectors every 10 years,
but many C02 detectors can last 10 years, even without the newest bells and whistles.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by TomatoTomahto »

VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:34 am
neilpilot wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:06 pm
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:11 pm
That should be good for a static issue, but not help with an intermittent problem.
I have some old smoke/CO2 detectors that screech every time the power goes down or up
that might be more useful.
I suggest you scrap those old smoke/CO2 detectors and install modern smoke/CO detectors.
That may be a good idea. I plan to replace them when they stop working, just like my cell phone.
CU says that to replace carbon monoxide detectors every five years and smoke detectors every 10 years,
but many C02 detectors can last 10 years, even without the newest bells and whistles.
Respectfully, CO detectors are not a place where I’d save money. We have 13 smoke and CO detectors, which is admittedly overkill (especially as we don’t have any fossil fuels in the house). We replace them when time’s up.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by neilpilot »

VanGar+Goyle wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 10:34 am
neilpilot wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:06 pm
VanGar+Goyle wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:11 pm
That should be good for a static issue, but not help with an intermittent problem.
I have some old smoke/CO2 detectors that screech every time the power goes down or up
that might be more useful.
I suggest you scrap those old smoke/CO2 detectors and install modern smoke/CO detectors.
That may be a good idea. I plan to replace them when they stop working, just like my cell phone.
CU says that to replace carbon monoxide detectors every five years and smoke detectors every 10 years,
but many C02 detectors can last 10 years, even without the newest bells and whistles.
I was actually suggesting you scrap your old smoke/carbon dioxide detectors and install smoke/carbon monoxide units. While it maybe true that CO2 detectors last 10 years, I've never actually heard of anyone having a carbon dioxide detector in their home.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by BIGal »

Highly unlikely that if a circuit trips it would "heal itself" and come back on. I would check with the owner and see if he has an agreement with the electric supplier to turn off some circuits randomly to help "peak shave". Depending on how it is wired, if the breakers for some circuit in your apartment are in another location and someone else is resetting the breaker. In any case, there is something definitely wrong that needs to be identified and addressed. Good Luck.
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Re: Power outlets off and on

Post by suemarkp »

BIGal wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 1:44 pm Highly unlikely that if a circuit trips it would "heal itself" and come back on. I would check with the owner and see if he has an agreement with the electric supplier to turn off some circuits randomly to help "peak shave". Depending on how it is wired, if the breakers for some circuit in your apartment are in another location and someone else is resetting the breaker. In any case, there is something definitely wrong that needs to be identified and addressed. Good Luck.
Not unlikely at all if a loose connection. Now a circuit breaker or GFCI will not auto reset, but a poor connection that heats up will expand and can make the connection worse so it stops conducting. Then it cools down, makes better contact, and begins working again. This is a common problem with the cheap 39 cent "backstabbed" receptacles. But it can also happen in a wire nut that is not properly tightened.

But your last comment is correct that something is wrong and needs to be checked.
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