Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

The Boglehead community has engaged with the personal finance and investment aspects of tiny living before (here and here). We've speculated a bit on personal consumer aspects here briefly and a decade ago. I am expecting to move to the north Austin area in about a year, and am planning to purchase a tiny house. While I'm on this journey, I'm going to post in detail about the personal consumer issues involved with going tiny (not focusing on investment/financial aspects, although those are certainly relevant). I want to focus on the consumer considerations that should happen before buying tiny, and the purchasing considerations that come thick and fast afterwards, including mis-steps that I will chronicle. I have actionable questions for BHs (even if you don't want to go tiny!), but this is also actionable because several other BHs have considered going tiny/small, and least a couple currently live in tiny houses (THs).

My main motivation for going tiny is practical. The "Noise in my attic" thread shows how many variables are at play in an average house; I want to decrease the quantity of those variables without surrendering the independence of homeownership. I don't have obligations that require a big house (my household is me and a dog who have lived alone for years, no marriage/kids in picture, no big events to host). I could buy more house as an investment, but I'd prefer one of the many lower-effort RE investments on offer. My goals are (1) Enjoy homeownership and tiny living, and (2) Don't buy more space than I want to use and maintain. I'm not aiming at making a profit from eventual sale of this thing--the TH itself is not an asset, it's just a living situation. I'm also not actively seeking to be green/off-grid, minimalist, frugal, or trendy. (These would be nice, but they're not how I will judge the success of this project.) I plan to finance land and house with 20%-50% down, and I'll briefly mention some personal finance discussion if it's relevant to discussing where I'm putting the TH.

To establish the scope of this thread, there is a definition of "tiny house" in Appendix Q of the 2018 edition of the International Residential Code. This thread will focus on houses that meet this definition, which is a dwelling which has 400sf of floor area, or less. (A dwelling is defined as any building that contains one or two units that provides complete independent living facilities such as living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.) There are other specific requirements including ceiling height for visitability, loft access and dimensions for safety, and egress requirements also for safety. There is no minimum floor area requirement, specific mode of construction, or comment on foundation/wheels in the IRC, but additional local codes may add further requirements. The wide IRC definition of "tiny house" establishes the topic of this thread, although there are many subgroups of THs within this.

Things I've learned that I can share if the community wants:
So you want to go tiny. What are the concrete next steps? Here.
Where are you putting the tiny house? (How did you figure out what your local policy is on tiny houses?)
How did you you choose which tiny house to get? Here.
How do you respond to reasonable concerns about tiny living?

Actionable questions (more will come):
Buying a suburban lot:
1. I am shopping for a lot zoned for SFH/manufactured home in a suburb of north Austin, an area where THs on private land is legal but with many hidden surprises. I'm leaning towards not using a realtor but instead getting a land use attorney. I think I can find and examine plots of land without hiring my own agent, but zoning and codes can be so arcane that I want to ensure I have help doing it right the first time. Would you engage a realtor? Would you work with a land use attorney?
2. When shopping for land, how would you discuss tiny house plans with the relevant HOA, and at what stage in the game?

Things I plan to provide later as items of interest:
House Transportation Process
Problems, Total Cost for Value, Final Thoughts
Last edited by Veiled on Fri May 19, 2023 9:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
pizzy
Posts: 4339
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:59 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by pizzy »

You mention suburban lot and HOA...

Are you planning to build a tiny home in a community of tiny homes? Or are you planning on building a tiny home in a community of much larger homes? Or neither and I'm just reading his wrong?
Vanguard/Fidelity | 76% US Stock | 16% Int'l Stock | 8% Cash
ruanddu
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by ruanddu »

I have thought of adding a ADU to our backyard suburban lot that is about 10,000sq ft. Have you done any research on premade houses like a Boxabl and which options seem to be best value and can be shipped to your house? Are you in the US? Thanks.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

pizzy wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:53 am You mention suburban lot and HOA...

Are you planning to build a tiny home in a community of tiny homes? Or are you planning on building a tiny home in a community of much larger homes? Or neither and I'm just reading his wrong?
Neither, but I can't fault your reading.

I am planning to place a pre-built tiny home in a community of modest/small homes. I don't want to stick out and be the little "up" house, I don't want to make neighbors mad.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

ruanddu wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:56 am I have thought of adding a ADU to our backyard suburban lot that is about 10,000sq ft. Have you done any research on premade houses like a Boxabl and which options seem to be best value and can be shipped to your house? Are you in the US? Thanks.
I am in the US (TX). I didn't look at Boxabl but I am planning to buy something fabricated off-site and installed on the land. Right now, I'm looking at park model RV's because they have the look I want to achieve (little house with pitched roof and siding, etc). Boxable is suuuper behind right now to the point that lots of people wondered if they were vaporware. If I were you, I'd let others be guinea pigs until their pipeline is sorted out, because right now they have barely shipped their first units and won't reliably fix inevitable problems until the first 100 to 1000 clear the warehouse, which is a bit far off.

TH are much more widely accepted as ADUs than they are as primary residences, so you're in luck. In California THs as ADUs in backyards are legal in multiple cities including Los Angeles, San Diego, Fresno, and others. This requires there be a primary residence on the property. In other places in Texas, THs as primary homes or ADUs are legal in multiple cities including Austin, Kyle, Manor, Spur, and others. In Portland, THOW and RVs are legal as primary dwellings and a fortiori as ADUs. I don't know where you are but your odds are better seeking the legality of TH-as-ADU than TH-as-primary-home.
Random Poster
Posts: 3314
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:17 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Random Poster »

Why not just get a small condo in downtown Austin and call it a day?

Less hassle, still provides you with ownership of something, will likely appreciate more than a stand alone tiny house would, and would likely allow you to simplify your life quite a bit (might not even need a car, for example).
Most experiences are better imagined.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Random Poster wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:15 pm Why not just get a small condo in downtown Austin and call it a day?

Less hassle, still provides you with ownership of something, will likely appreciate more than a stand alone tiny house would, and would likely allow you to simplify your life quite a bit (might not even need a car, for example).
That's a great idea, and I considered that. A condo would be a totally reasonable way to get to some of the same goals. Everyone who wants to go tiny should consider the options that are similar to tiny living, in case one of those options can more simply achieve their goals. I've spent a little over a decade shooing away the desire to live in a self-contained little house, mostly in smaller and smaller apartments.

I don't think I can fight it or redefine it anymore, part of my interest is just wanting to live in a small house. My goals aren't limited to avoiding hassle and I'm not focused on optimizing appreciation. The tiny house is a goal in itself. In my mind, it's okay to accept an unusual living situation if it achieves some happiness, even at the expense of maximum financial efficiency or return.
Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:40 am My goals are (1) Enjoy homeownership and tiny living...
That said, I don't want this decision to be a total mistake. I ran some numbers at various times in this journey. The numbers for living in a tiny house village were pretty suboptimal to numbers for placement of a TH on my own lot (zero appreciation, only depreciation, maybe a five digit opportunity cost per year), so I am hoping to avoid that. However, discussing more vs. less appreciation is not as important to me as getting to goal #1, enjoying tiny living and homeownership.

I'm neither completely disregarding, nor completely being led by, the financial aspects of this.
Caduceus
Posts: 3527
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:47 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Caduceus »

Maybe you can get some inspiration about practical living from other countries. I did some very quick Googling and it seems the median apartment space in Tokyo and Hong Kong are close to where you are at.

I remember staying in Hong Kong at some point where the bed was right next to the shower, and the study table was less than an arm's length away from me. It was fun for a week but then got depressing very quickly.
psteinx
Posts: 5801
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by psteinx »

One of the main things you get when you buy or rent a home is neighbors.

Even if, say, a mobile home in a mobile home park would suit an individuals need for space, it would also come with a particular set of neighbors. The neighbors in a mobile home park are likely to be rather different than those in a standard free-standing suburban house or a condo in the 'burbs or city.

Think about the neighbors you are likely to have, especially since you have a dog (means going outdoors a lot), and, by the nature of a tiny house, with little interior space you're likely to spend more time out of the house.
lws
Posts: 831
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:12 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by lws »

I am researching this for ideas: https://house.dwell.com/cost
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Caduceus wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:59 pm Maybe you can get some inspiration about practical living from other countries. I did some very quick Googling and it seems the median apartment space in Tokyo and Hong Kong are close to where you are at.

I remember staying in Hong Kong at some point where the bed was right next to the shower, and the study table was less than an arm's length away from me. It was fun for a week but then got depressing very quickly.
This is also a very good idea. To avoid the costs of traveling I did the equivalent by visiting tiny houses in the US, and I loved it. Not sure I would put the bed right next to the shower and the table within 3 feet, I can understand why that might be depressing. I'm planning on going for a 400sf floorplan, which isn't even "tiny" by some standards.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

psteinx wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:42 pm One of the main things you get when you buy or rent a home is neighbors.

Even if, say, a mobile home in a mobile home park would suit an individuals need for space, it would also come with a particular set of neighbors. The neighbors in a mobile home park are likely to be rather different than those in a standard free-standing suburban house or a condo in the 'burbs or city.

Think about the neighbors you are likely to have, especially since you have a dog (means going outdoors a lot), and, by the nature of a tiny house, with little interior space you're likely to spend more time out of the house.
That's some real wisdom. "Location, location, neighbors."

I spent last weekend driving around neighborhoods to get a feel for things, and I am looking at safety data and what the lot backs to, etc. Don't worry, I'll choose wisely. Luckily, small cute houses are fashionable in the area I'm moving to, so I don't plan to blend in by blending into danger. I mentioned that the lots I'm looking at are zoned for manufactured homes only to stave off some questions about appropriate zoning for my planned residence.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

lws wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:44 pm I am researching this for ideas: https://house.dwell.com/cost
Wow, this is interesting, I have never heard of this site.

430k is triple or quadruple what I plan to pay for a PMRV, although I see it includes site prep. Is that a good deal? Have you looked at Platinum Cottages, Stone Canyon Homes, or any other PMRV builder? These run 80-190k and are legal as ADUs in many areas. If you already have a primary residence on the lot of interest, I bet a bunch of the lot prep is already done. Might not be worth 430k IMO.
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28859
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Watty »

Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:40 am Things I plan to provide later as items of interest:
House Transportation Process
Problems, Total Cost for Value, Final Thoughts
Somewhere in your planning you might also include a topic;

"Incremental costs of a not so tiny house small house.'

All the land costs, site preparation, permitting, utilities, will not vary much with the size of the house so the incremental cost of building a 800 square foot house will not be anywhere close to double the cost of of building a 400 square foot tiny house. It will vary wildly but I would not be surprised if all in a 800 square foot house and the lot might only cost 10% more than a 400 square foot tiny house on the same lot.

One of the size limitations of tiny houses is that some of them are designed to be towable so they are in effect just a specialized camper trailer. When you are permanently installing it on the land the expanding the square footage may take little more than some longer boards and more plywood and roofing.
User avatar
Nightowl99
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:49 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Nightowl99 »

Could you build a large fence around the tiny home to make it appear bigger than it really is on the outside?
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18499
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Nightowl99 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:11 pm Could you build a large fence around the tiny home to make it appear bigger than it really is on the outside?
Or a full, wrap around porch...
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Watty wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 6:48 pm
Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:40 am Things I plan to provide later as items of interest:
House Transportation Process
Problems, Total Cost for Value, Final Thoughts
Somewhere in your planning you might also include a topic;

"Incremental costs of a not so tiny house small house.'

All the land costs, site preparation, permitting, utilities, will not vary much with the size of the house so the incremental cost of building a 800 square foot house will not be anywhere close to double the cost of of building a 400 square foot tiny house. It will vary wildly but I would not be surprised if all in a 800 square foot house and the lot might only cost 10% more than a 400 square foot tiny house on the same lot.

One of the size limitations of tiny houses is that some of them are designed to be towable so they are in effect just a specialized camper trailer. When you are permanently installing it on the land the expanding the square footage may take little more than some longer boards and more plywood and roofing.
I remembered reading your similar comment in this thread. Of course, someone replied that a TH will be cheaper to furnish, heat/cool, and maintain, plus not everybody wants a huge house...but your point still stands. THs are more expensive per square foot, because they don't dilute the total square footage of a house with middle-of-room square feet (or other functional things like extra beds and baths). Every square foot is doing functional work (e.g. plumbing, being the required 30" of free space in a bathroom, etc), and that is expensive. This is a key thing for those interested in THs for budgetary reasons to consider: a 3/2 with 5 roommates will almost always be cheaper than a TH if both are available in the same area, and building an 800sf 2/1 will be minimally more expensive and have more value in 5 years, 10 years, etc. (As my escape plan if the tiny plan goes south, I'm eyeing a neighborhood with little 800sf 2/1 homes on 3000sf lots, which I'd be happy to live in even though it would push the tiny dream a little further off.)

For my concrete situation, I can give some expectations for the concrete answer, but I'm not sure how I'll give more than a speculative reply:
- Land costs will be identical regardless of what I put on it.
- Permitting fees will be identical regardless of how many square feet I'm asking permission for
- Extending utilities from street will be basically same, minimally different if different at all

The math of your point basically proves itself. So why do people keep making them and living in THs? Those who live in tinies who have paid attention to your point have a non-mathematical, non-financial reason for delighting in tiny. It might be ecological, it might be whimsical...it might even be irrational or unprofitable. For these person who specifically wants to go smaller for the sake of smaller, this point ("You could go bigger cheaply") doesn't land as persuasively as it seems to at face value. Do you see what I mean?
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Nightowl99 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:11 pm Could you build a large fence around the tiny home to make it appear bigger than it really is on the outside?
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:33 pmOr a full, wrap around porch...
Oooooh interesting ideas. There are tiny models with wraparound porches. I'm planning on a front and back porch but not one that wraps around, and I'm planning on a detached garage with a gable at right angles to that of the house for visual variety. Might add a wee guestroom above the garage. Hadn't given a lot of thought to fence style other than the fact that I need one. I'm sure that'll an actionable question later...
User avatar
ram
Posts: 2281
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:47 pm
Location: Midwest

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by ram »

A few thoughts:
My current main house is a traditional 3000 sq foot house in Wisconsin. However I have lived in 2 other countries where houses are much smaller. I currently own an apartment in a city center in Asia which is about 500 sq feet in size. This is an an area where apartments seldom exceed 800 sq feet. My wife and I have lived in this apartment for 3 months at a time without being inconvenienced in any way. I only have a designated motorcycle parking spot there.

About 4 yrs ago my daughter lived in a University of California, San Francisco studio apartment that was 200 sq feet in size. Only single people without pets were eligible for these apartments. This included a tiny bath. It was in a very desirable part of the city. She found this to be too small and later moved to another apartment in the same neighborhood that was about 350 sq feet size and was much happier with the extra 150 sq feet.

One of my well to do patients with a traditional house in the city bought a 2 acre lot of land on the shores of a pristine lake in north Wisconsin when he retired. For one or 2 summers he used a RV to stay there for a month at a time. But then built a tiny house about 300 to 400 sq foot in size but surrounded by about 1200 sq foot of deck. He is much happier with this arrangement than with the RV. He also spends a lot of time on his boat and canoe.

A friend of mine interested in astronomy bough a plot of land in remote north Wisconsin where the sky is dark. He has permanently parked an old trailer there and built a small deck adjoining it. He plans on building a small house there after retirement. There are Amish people here who can build good quality small houses on site.
Ram
ruanddu
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by ruanddu »

Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 1:28 pm
ruanddu wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 11:56 am I have thought of adding a ADU to our backyard suburban lot that is about 10,000sq ft. Have you done any research on premade houses like a Boxabl and which options seem to be best value and can be shipped to your house? Are you in the US? Thanks.
I am in the US (TX). I didn't look at Boxabl but I am planning to buy something fabricated off-site and installed on the land. Right now, I'm looking at park model RV's because they have the look I want to achieve (little house with pitched roof and siding, etc). Boxable is suuuper behind right now to the point that lots of people wondered if they were vaporware. If I were you, I'd let others be guinea pigs until their pipeline is sorted out, because right now they have barely shipped their first units and won't reliably fix inevitable problems until the first 100 to 1000 clear the warehouse, which is a bit far off.

TH are much more widely accepted as ADUs than they are as primary residences, so you're in luck. In California THs as ADUs in backyards are legal in multiple cities including Los Angeles, San Diego, Fresno, and others. This requires there be a primary residence on the property. In other places in Texas, THs as primary homes or ADUs are legal in multiple cities including Austin, Kyle, Manor, Spur, and others. In Portland, THOW and RVs are legal as primary dwellings and a fortiori as ADUs. I don't know where you are but your odds are better seeking the legality of TH-as-ADU than TH-as-primary-home.
Thanks for the info. I will take a look at those suggestions. If you have some websites of companies to peruse I would appreciate it.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Concrete Next Steps

Upthread I'm getting some replies that point out some important considerations that should happen before going tiny. That wasn't exactly the topic of my actionable questions, but it's good fodder for discussion of this topic. Since several folks have shared their considerations, I thought I'd add mine, which include some resources I've read about. None of this is a promotion of anything I've linked.

Many people (maybe not BHs) who want to go small go about it backwards: they look for a cute house, then they look for a place to put it, then they think about financial impacts, insurance and other important factors. I present to you my recommended steps for buying a tiny, in approximate order of time and priority. Think of this as developing a "workable plan." I'm not specifically addressing those who DIY their own tinies or convert structures into tinies, but if you're clever enough to do that, you're clever enough to modify this "order of operations" to your situation.

1. Articulate your dream of going tiny. DO NOT pick a particular house. Maybe your dreams aren't for yourself--this could be a rental or a MIL suite/ADU. If you have already picked a particular house, wash that out of your brain. That is someone else's house until step 11. Just like your first financial plan, remember that this written idea can change.
My initial answer: 200sf tiny house on wheels (THOW), a permanent abode that would move with me if I needed to relocate it; downstairs sleeping because I want to grow old in it; fire-safe because I'm not an idiot.

2. Price the house of your dreams and start saving a down payment. Financing is nontraditional (at best, nonexistent at worst), so start early. Accumulate minimum 20% in a HYSA or MMF, even better 30-50% of your original idea, given all the costs you discover.

3. While that's cooking, identify the reason you want to go small. Is it to save money, impact the environment, afford your own space? Make sure that you take a good look at the disadvantages of tiny houses at this stage to avoid romanticization.
My answers: minimize maintenance, minimize house's ability to siphon off money/time/happiness, maximize control over my living situation vs renting, enjoy a psychological benefit of something I find charming, orderly, responsible, and simple.

4. Consider other ways you could achieve your goal. Believe it or not, there are people not living in tinies who share your ideals and/or needs. Could you get what you want with a (smaller) flat/apartment, a roommate, a she-shed/man cave.... These options are a menu that will help you choose more correctly and freely.
My menu: be more ecological in my purchases/recycling, buy a condo, go tinier with apartment living, buy a 2/1, buy a 3/2 (and park a tiny in the back??), buy a THOW and park it somewhere (??), buy a duplex or fourplex and use other units for passive income. All over the place.

5. Assess the financial aspects and feasibility of each menu item. Consider your obligations and how this relates to your reasons. How far would your new commute be (and does that impact any environmental goals you had), how happy are you going to be, how will this affect your family relationships and credit?
My bit: I've been sifting through this over multiple years and cities. I realized that there was something about living compact that I really liked. I downsized and liked it it, I visited tinies and loved them. I couldn't get away from it after a decade or so of thinking about it, so I'm going for it. Is this the most profitable living situation? Eh. Like many BHs have, I decided to intentionally accept a financial inefficiency to support happiness.

6. Find out where to put a tiny house, and how you can put it there. If you can't put a tiny house where you open to living, return to the menu you made in step 2.
Two examples: Houston is a patchwork of mid/upper class homeowners, and they want to keep THs in their place. Houston considers all tiny houses to be RVs: they want them up on a trailer. They expect that you're buying it for an AirBnB or ADU. In Spur, it's a different story. Tiny houses are part of the mission to attract people to move to and live in Spur. As a result, tiny houses must be on foundations in Spur because they build up the city and encourage long-term residence there. You can buy land with the sole purpose of placing a tiny house on it, and Spur doesn't want you to be itinerant--they want you to settle down, and then leave an affordable housing option in Spur.

7. Identify places from step 6 where you could put your tiny as you dreamed it in step 1. Do you own land? Is there a THOW-friendly RV park that you feel is safe for you/your family? Can you plunk a TH in an existing TH community, or do they require you buy one from them? Can you find a parking spot on Tiny House Listings? Do you have to buy land, or buy a lot? Check to make sure your house as described in step 1 fits requirements; it might be too small/big, or it might need to come off or go onto wheels. Services like Houzz, Peerspace, etc. cannot help with this search, because they have policies prohibiting anyone from living on spaces they list.
My conclusion: I have a job that keeps me in urban areas. I can't use rural land or an RV park 40 minutes away from city center. I'm looking at plots of land 20 minutes from work with SFH zoning and neighbor situations that wouldn't mind my tiny.

8. Price the purchase beneath your tiny's subfloor. Consider rent/loans, taxes, installations (utilities, septic, wells), insurance (premiums 27% higher than national average for non-tinies), and fees (closing, HOA, permit). If THOW, think about dry weight and consider purchasing or periodically renting a bigger vehicle to tow it.
My estimate of new debt: land where I want it + house itself = $200k, about $160k financed with 20% down
My estimated expenses in the first year: down payment + lot prep (leveling, drainage, utilities) + taxes + insurance = $120k
The cost of a tiny is so much more than a wee house!


***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I've worked on my own tiny house process until about this step. I have little advice or understanding of nuance from here to the end. I'm sure I'll have more once I've been further, and I'll update the place of this marker as I go.
***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

9. If applicable, check with HOA rules about your planned home. Some HOAs prohibit manufactured homes, which many tinies are. Some HOAs have requirements for builds. And even if the HOA doesn't, the neighbors might. Don't potentially have unhappy neighbors: if it's going to be problem, that's not the land for you, your home belongs elsewhere.

10. Buy land if applicable. Ensure that you have an up-to-date survey, perc test, and title insurance. Make sure to add clauses to the purchase agreement that allow you to pull out if anything goes pear-shaped. Obtain a land loan with 20-30% down payment, or buy in cash. There are lots of other threads on buying land, I don't have much to add. The reason this step is before Step 11 is that some tiny home agents and builders will ask whether you have a parking spot and finances figured out before they even show you a house (ask me how I know).

11. Shop for your house. Ensure it fits local requirements (roof pitch, total square footage, lowest ceiling height, largest room/bathroom), your safety needs (fire egress, CO detector), and your local challenges (if THOW in tornado belt, where do hurricane straps attach and where do you shelter?).

Ask about practical aspects of construction, transportation, certification, insurance, and warranties. Sometimes the builder will work through a dealer. How much is out of state transportation per mile? Whose liability is the house until it's delivered? Remember to factor in the lifetime costs and benefits of unusual features like oddly-located water storage or transforming/custom furniture.

Many people find their tiny homes through Tiny House Listings, where you can search by feature (like "downstairs sleeping"), but other reputed builders I know of include:
Chatanooga Tiny Homes (THOW only) - best quality I've seen, also sell shells and trailers for DIYers
Tumbleweed Tiny Homes - the OG, although no longer owned by TH movement founder Jay Schafer
Decathalon Tiny Homes (THOW only) - Texas-based and attentive to detail, not the level of polish/customization as Chatanooga
Stone Canyon (park model only) - Alabama based with floor plans for park model RVs, they have an ADA floor plan available and some non-tiny options
Platinum Cottages - becoming the standard for multiple Texas dealers because of clever, sensible park model RV floor plans under 400sf with good quality finish

There is a more complete map of builders in the US and Canada hosted by NOAH, the body that does inspections of tiny homes according to tiny-house-specific codes.

12. File a build permit for your house, utility plans, +/- garage, +/- fence.

13. Install utilities if applicable. This applies to rural TH placement and to placement on urban lots. You can interpret it to mean figuring out how to get utilities from one part of a lot to another if you're building in the backyard. There are many resources for utility installation and it's not TH-specific, so I'm not going to add much.

14. Purchase or build your house. Some THs are such small purchases (and some builders have such a backlog) that it would be okay to buy earlier, but this is the safest place on the list to buy the house. Many tiny house builders or factories have relationships with financing entities, but if not, you can try Rocket Mortgage or LightStream. Two others that I have recently become familiar with in my state are 21st Century Mortage and Triad. Personal loans are suboptimal in comparison but rates might be more reasonable at a credit union.

Obviously, people who are building a tiny, finishing a shell, or modifying a structure into a tiny will have started that before step 14. If you're doing this DIY, remember that during the build process you will need a NOAH inspection before the drywall is up.

15. Insure the house. Sort out whether you need homeowner's insurance or auto insurance. Clarify when you need to have effective homeowners' insurance in steps 11 and 14. Your rate will be higher than the national average. Some recommended insurers:
Strategic Insurance Agency - reputedly good for DIY tiny homes
American Family- reputedly good for THOW
Foremost - reputedly good for stationary tinies

16a. Transport house if needed. Place the house on jack stands OR block/level/tie down the house OR place on foundation, depending on your local requirements and the type of house you bought. If THOW or PMRV, remove your wheels and either sell them (since their lifespan is limited by not only use but time), or vacuum seal them and store them away from sunlight and heat to prolong their lifespan. Install skirting if required, which helps with insulation.

16b. Hook up utilities and install appliances. Attend to special details for nontraditional appliances (e.g. composting toilet, tankless water heater, ventless dryer, ductless A/C or minisplit, grey water sink/toilet system). Solve inevitable problems.

17. Move in and enjoy tiny living.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

ruanddu wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:12 am Thanks for the info. I will take a look at those suggestions. If you have some websites of companies to peruse I would appreciate it.
It depends on what you're looking for. I'm plagiarizing a bit from the post above but for you, I'd suggest:
Chatanooga Tiny Homes (THOW only) - best quality I've seen
Decathalon Tiny Homes (THOW only) - they have floorplans that are ADU-friendly, e.g. door on the long side of the house
Platinum Cottages - second best quality, also lots and lots of floorplans available with longside doors
Stone Canyon Homes - this is where I'm hoping to buy from, park model RVs and more; they also have longside door plans, an ADA floor plan, some wraparound porch ideas, and some non-tiny options
Utopian Villas - these people have a patented (whatever that means) floor system that is made to be easy to place on a foundation in the final location, which might be attractive if you're planning on installing a permanent ADU; have longside door options and non-tiny options. Quite possibly the most customization options I've ever seen, which could ring you up close to that 400k that the other option quoted.

One I would not recommend is Athens Park, the quality is just not comparable to something like Platinum Cottages and they offer nearly the same floorplans. Here is a map of builders in the US.

I'd be interested to hear what you think and what you decide after you've mulled over these.
ruanddu
Posts: 593
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by ruanddu »

Veiled wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 12:13 pm
ruanddu wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:12 am Thanks for the info. I will take a look at those suggestions. If you have some websites of companies to peruse I would appreciate it.
It depends on what you're looking for. I'm plagiarizing a bit from the post above but for you, I'd suggest:
Chatanooga Tiny Homes (THOW only) - best quality I've seen
Decathalon Tiny Homes (THOW only) - they have floorplans that are ADU-friendly, e.g. door on the long side of the house
Platinum Cottages - second best quality, also lots and lots of floorplans available with longside doors
Stone Canyon Homes - this is where I'm hoping to buy from, park model RVs and more; they also have longside door plans, an ADA floor plan, some wraparound porch ideas, and some non-tiny options
Utopian Villas - these people have a patented (whatever that means) floor system that is made to be easy to place on a foundation in the final location, which might be attractive if you're planning on installing a permanent ADU; have longside door options and non-tiny options. Quite possibly the most customization options I've ever seen, which could ring you up close to that 400k that the other option quoted.

One I would not recommend is Athens Park, the quality is just not comparable to something like Platinum Cottages and they offer nearly the same floorplans. Here is a map of builders in the US.

I'd be interested to hear what you think and what you decide after you've mulled over these.
This is super helpful and appreciated. Will let you know if I find any further info. Thanks!
MBB_Boy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by MBB_Boy »

Sending you a DM, but have vacation property in the area and got a small ranch house / barndominium / cabin (I refuse to use the term tiny house) built-in by a local outfit. Was $65K for my build (customized and upgraded a few things). 1 bedroom + loft, about 650sqft total.

Had it transported on skids to the location, lowered and leveled. Great builder and overall experience, and will chime in later with some thoughts on furniture and such based on my experience so far. We are on a well out there
normaldude
Posts: 803
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:41 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by normaldude »

Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 5:50 pm
Caduceus wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:59 pm Maybe you can get some inspiration about practical living from other countries. I did some very quick Googling and it seems the median apartment space in Tokyo and Hong Kong are close to where you are at.

I remember staying in Hong Kong at some point where the bed was right next to the shower, and the study table was less than an arm's length away from me. It was fun for a week but then got depressing very quickly.
This is also a very good idea. To avoid the costs of traveling I did the equivalent by visiting tiny houses in the US, and I loved it. Not sure I would put the bed right next to the shower and the table within 3 feet, I can understand why that might be depressing. I'm planning on going for a 400sf floorplan, which isn't even "tiny" by some standards.
Below are some of my favorite tiny apartment videos, which feature space-saving concepts like vertical storage, floor-to-ceiling cabinets, multifunction furniture, and furniture with storage inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOv-uB2bfuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L01hMbAHfVU
User avatar
MillennialFinance19
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by MillennialFinance19 »

Have you considered building your own small home? If you do this, you can really control costs. A square or rectangle home around 800 square feet isn’t terribly expensive. If you use a loft for the bedroom it could be roomy as well.
VTI and chill until 57...
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

MillennialFinance19 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:52 pm Have you considered building your own small home? If you do this, you can really control costs. A square or rectangle home around 800 square feet isn’t terribly expensive. If you use a loft for the bedroom it could be roomy as well.
I think this is Watty's thought as well, that an 800sf home won't be very costly. But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.

I'd be interested in what the cost would look like, though, out of curiosity and in the spirit of being thorough. I haven't considered building from scratch because everyone I know (except one incredible architect) hated the project by the time they finished the build. I'm not interested in upstairs/loft sleeping because I don't think that's a solution that's stable long-term for aging knees. What would your thought be on the cost of an 800sf home with two separate downstairs sleeping areas, e.g. one for a twin and one for a queen? The 400sf house I'm looking at buying has those and is going to cost $100k, and boasts fewer extra square feet for me to maintain.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

normaldude wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:42 pm Below are some of my favorite tiny apartment videos, which feature space-saving concepts like vertical storage, floor-to-ceiling cabinets, multifunction furniture, and furniture with storage inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOv-uB2bfuo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L01hMbAHfVU
Oh my gosh I love this stuff. Efficient home design was my gateway drug to tiny living. :D The Made coffee-to-dining table is a good product for me to know about in particular, I've been searching for something like this to function as dining/coffee/craft table in a little abode. Thanks!
tunafish
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:47 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by tunafish »

I haven't read through all the many replies. If I were looking for a house or planning to build one, I would make sure it was accessible. You don't have to be elderly for this, anyone can break a leg and wind up on crutches. Immediately things like lofts become useless.

As to a post above, I have a friend who lives in a trailer park. It is incorrect to assume that everyone who lives in a trailer park is someone you would not want as a neighbor.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

tunafish wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:32 am I haven't read through all the many replies. If I were looking for a house or planning to build one, I would make sure it was accessible. You don't have to be elderly for this, anyone can break a leg and wind up on crutches. Immediately things like lofts become useless.

As to a post above, I have a friend who lives in a trailer park. It is incorrect to assume that everyone who lives in a trailer park is someone you would not want as a neighbor.
Thanks for that. I plan on never using a loft for sleeping...downstairs sleeping is the only way to get to my goal of living in the house long-term. Thanks also for your comment on trailer parks, I agree.

I'm still looking for some answers to the actionable questions about land use attourney, realtor, and HOA...but I guess I appreciate any/all foot traffic to the topic of tiny houses.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

A couple of posts have talked about the importance of a good floorplan in a tiny house. There are a lot of tiny houses that are unworkably small and perhaps not conducive to long-term happiness. Others require a small gymnastics routine to access storage and sleeping areas, which are fine for the young and healthy but don't help the injured, disabled, or elderly. Based on these comments I though I'd post about my...

House Selection
Shopping for a tiny house is really shopping for a floor plan and building materials; it's not shopping for a school district, a good backyard, or an architectural style. "Location, location, location" is about your land or parking spot, not about the tiny house you buy. Shopping for the tiny house itself is about the structure, which can often be easily moved (at least once), and remodeled or refinished more cheaply than a typical house. The structure includes the floorplan and the building materials.

Your desired floorplan will depend on the reason you're buying the tiny. If you're planning to rent it out for overnight stays, you can probably do without a full kitchen and advertise a kitchenette or coffee bar. If you're buying a THOW as a mother-in-law suite, you may want to ensure the bathroom is large enough to accommodate a walker or shower chair, and you may need to think about how high the trailer is (i.e. is this a deckover trailer or a bumper pull trailer, and what kind of access you need to build up to the front door. If you're buying this for a family, you probably can't make do with a minifridge and a single sleeping space.

Your desired build materials will depend on many things, including your budget, your tastes, and your goals. I used Belinda Carr's videos as a neutral source to learn about various building materials including vapor barriers, insulation, and floor/wall finishes. A really neat combination of building products including trailer, framing, housewrap and insulation is exhibited in this video about building a small THOW from scratch: video.

I want to buy a long-term home that they carry me out of. In order to get to this goal, the house must be to code and fire-safe, and I need downstairs sleeping. I currently have a dog so I'd love a tub bath for washing her. I prepare most of my own food, which means I want a functional kitchen, although I can do with as little as a sink, pressure cooker, toaster oven, electric kettle, and fridge. (It'd be nice to have a microwave and oven.) I have a capsule wardrobe and use a freestanding closet instead of a walk-in construction, so a large closet is not necessary (underbed storage would be enough). Of course, there are many other things that take up space (hot water heater, A/C, cleaning supplies, seasonal clothes and decorations, office supplies and devices, paper files...), so I would prefer a floorplan with a storage loft where some of these things can be out of my way. Because of my hopes for the duration of my ownership of this house, I decided to make my choice of home based on the floorplan, and optimize build materials as a secondary goal or subsequent project.

My deal-breakers for floorplan selection are:
- Must be fire-safe and to code, RVIA (which is for RVs or park models) or NOAH (designed for tiny houses)
- Must have good quality trailer with recent protective coating, as this is part of the foundation
- Must have moderate quality build materials (no spray foam insulation, no cardboard vapor barriers)
- Must have downstairs sleeping for minimum 1 twin mattress
- Must have kitchenette with a sink separate from bathroom sink and that can accommodates a pressure cooker, toaster oven, electric kettle, and mini-fridge
- Must have (or have easily add-able) hookups for typical utilities
- Must have in-house washer/dryer hookups or space to add this
- A guest must be able to feel comfortable if they come over for coffee and if we imagine them staying overnight

My wishes for floorplan selection, which would be nice to have but not mandatory, in approximate order of importance:
- Want it to be <300sf
- Want it to be street legal (i.e. no more than 8' wide and 13' high) as a THOW
- Want it to not feel like "the same old tiny house floorplan" which is shotgun house with stairs to one side (admittedly, this conflicts a bit with the first two wants)
- Want a storage loft
- Want a kitchen with prep space, big(ger) sink, a small oven/stove, microwave
- Want a tub bath not just a shower
- Want space for a dishwasher (including countertop dishwashers, which I've used before), a major time-saver and lifestyle choice for me
- Want it look like a house, not a boxcar (this is a want because "curb appeal" for these charming things is compelling, but the floor plan is the most non-modifiable thing...you can put up shiplap or take down siding!)
- Want a porch

Things I don't care about
- Water heater--tankless vs not
- Off-grid things like propane stoves and composting toilets; I kind of admire them and I'd buy a house with them and compost/whatever, but meh...
- Internet hookups
- Space for TV
- Finishings
- Sleeping lofts, skylights, a zillion other nifty tiny house features

Options I reviewed:
I reviewed many pre-owned houses over the years by looking at downstairs sleeping options with Tiny House Listings. I more recently discovered the Tiny House Marketplace. Tiny houses are a bit hard to re-sell, so I had hoped to buy a used one to go light on the environment...but at the cost of buying used and the happiness quotient of buying custom/new, they are almost "disposable." It's minimally more expensive to buy one that's made-to-order. (Fast fashion analogies, anyone?) Anyway, it would be hard to dig up all the pre-owned houses I've looked at since 2018, but I can show you the order-new models I favored.

Tumbleweed Elm 26' Equator: $100k
Image
The score on the deal-breakers:
- It's fire-safe and to code
- It has good quality trailer with a protective coating
- It has good quality build materials
- It has downstairs sleeping for 1 twin mattress
NOTE: twin sleeping area is walled in, not the most accessible floorplan for ageing in place
- It has a kitchen with a sink separate from bathroom sink which can accommodate the basics
- It has hookups for typical utilities
- It has the option for an in-house washer/dryer
:? The "great room" is pretty bitty and if guests want to sleep overnight, they gotta climb the stairs

The score on wishes
- 120sf
- Street legal and the OG THOW
:? Feels like "the same old tiny house floorplan" which is shotgun house with stairs to one side (comes with being the OG)
- Has a bedroom loft I would use largely for storage
- The kitchen will accommodate prep space, bigger sink, a small oven/stove, microwave
:? Shower only
- Could definitely accommodate a dish drawer, countertop dishwasher, or 18" dishwasher
- Looks like such a cute house
- Has a wee porch

There is also a very similar floorplan which I also reviewed, the Tumbleweed Cypress 26' Equator. It is also about $100k and is very similar to the Elm, but instead of a porch, it has a stoop. Since they scored so similarly, I just presented the Elm in full.

Decathalon 24' Athena: $90k
Image
The score on the deal-breakers:
- It's fire-safe and to code
- It has good quality trailer with recent protective coating
- It has medium quality build materials
- It has downstairs sleeping for 1 queen mattress, although I'd probably use a twin
NOTE: sleeping area is more accessible along its entire side and if I used a twin, probably along 3 sides in case mobility changes or I need an aide
- It has a kitchen with a sink separate from bathroom sink which can accommodate the basics
- It has hookups for typical utilities
- It has the option for an in-house washer/dryer
:? No place to sit opposite friends, no dining room seating (TV trays and a loveseat or a hinged table), and no guest sleeping

The score on wishes
- 120sf
- Street legal
- Door on the side of the house, partitioned bedroom with non-midline door, and no stairs makes it feel different enough to me!
- Has a storage loft over the bathroom
:? The kitchenette doesn't have much prep space, the sink must be small; there is a small stove and I could add a microwave...
:? Shower only
:? I'm handwashing dishes in a very small sink
- Looks like such a cute house
:? No porch, I'd have to add on a deck, never mind a ramp if I am injured/disabled

SIPS panel home originally manufactured by defunct Florida builder: $50k
Image
The score on the deal-breakers:
- It's fire-safe and to code
- It has good quality trailer with a protective coating
- It has moderate quality build materials (interesting use of SIPS, otherwise quality is average; I like its use of window A/C units rather than minisplits for replaceability and cost-savings)
- It has downstairs sleeping for 1 queen mattress, although I'd use a twin
NOTE: sleeping area is only accessible with a twin bed; feels cramped with a queen (you're walking to either nightstand like a crab)
- It has a kitchen with a sink separate from bathroom sink which can accommodate the basics
- It has hookups for typical utilities
- It has no space for in-house washer/dryer BUT you could build a tled onto the tongue of the trailer with an apartment sized stackable unit
:? I toured this house, and this is the one that made me realize I might make people actually uncomfortable or confused if I invite them over

The score on wishes
- 120sf
- Street legal
- Door on the side of the house and no stairs makes it feel different enough to me!
- Has a storage loft over the bathroom
:? The kitchenette doesn't have much prep space, the sink is very tiny; there isn't even an installed stove...
:? Shower only
:? I'm handwashing dishes in a very small sink
:? Getting shed vibes
:? No porch, I'd have to add on a deck, never mind a ramp if I am injured/disabled

At one point I found a YouTube video of the original builder but cannot find it again, and at one point I also found their website (ditto). If anyone can find those again, this would be very helpful. Anyway, touring this house with a loved one was a turning point for me as I realized that while I might like 120sf, it didn't feel comfortable for guests.

Stone Canyon Caney Creek Option B: $100k
Image
The score on the deal-breakers:
- It's fire-safe and to code (RVIA, which is for RVs or park models)
- It has good quality trailer with a protective coating
- It has average quality build materials
- It has downstairs sleeping for 1 king mattress, although that feels cramped and I would still use a twin, which would make room for my Ikea closet and a desk in the larger of the 2 rooms
- It has a kitchen with a sink separate from bathroom sink which can accommodate the basics
- It has hookups for typical utilities
- It has the option for an in-house washer/dryer
- The living room is a normal room, it can fit a normal couch, coffee table, a few chairs! There is a full other room which I could use to sleep a guest (which closes off with a pocket door, and the heigh of which accommodates a bunk bed)

The score on wishes
:shock: 399sf (very nearly not a tiny house)
:? Wide load to be towed like any other mobile home--once or twice in its lifetime
- Doesn't feel like a tiny house floorplan, although feels compact
- The ceilings throughout match the pitch of the roof; I would drop a horizontal ceiling over the bathroom to create a tiny attic for storage
- The kitchen will accommodate prep space, bigger sink, a small oven/stove, microwave
- Tub/shower combo!
- Could definitely accommodate a dish drawer, countertop dishwasher, or 18" dishwasher
- Looks like such a cute house
- Has an enormous porch

This is a park model, the width of a trailer home. I toured one of these houses and immediately realized that this scale is more suitable to my goals of making guests comfortable and living in the house into old age. I gave up the ideal of having THOW that can be pulled on a road (this house will go on a foundation after being moved to its permanent location), but I did this because this floor plan makes so much sense. My goals were internally inconsistent and this house made me realize which ones had to go, to make the entire thing feasible. I discovered this option at a dealer in my home state, but the builder is half a country away.

I couldn't make every decision about building materials, but I am trading the absolute control over build materials that I would have if I did a DIY project, with the convenience of not doing a DIY project and I sleep very well with that decision.

To round out the personal consumer choices, I'm getting a stackable W/D, an 18" dishwasher, an 18" stove, and a tankless water heater. The house will be manufactured in one city and moved to its permanent place, and eventually (?) placed on a pier-and-beam foundation as that is optimal for the clay-rich soil. (Actionable questions probably to follow.) The cost of that trip and the initial block/level/tie down is estimated to be ~4k when the house was being manufactured out of state.
User avatar
MillennialFinance19
Posts: 586
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by MillennialFinance19 »

Veiled wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:48 am
MillennialFinance19 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:52 pm Have you considered building your own small home? If you do this, you can really control costs. A square or rectangle home around 800 square feet isn’t terribly expensive. If you use a loft for the bedroom it could be roomy as well.
I think this is Watty's thought as well, that an 800sf home won't be very costly. But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.

I'd be interested in what the cost would look like, though, out of curiosity and in the spirit of being thorough. I haven't considered building from scratch because everyone I know (except one incredible architect) hated the project by the time they finished the build. I'm not interested in upstairs/loft sleeping because I don't think that's a solution that's stable long-term for aging knees. What would your thought be on the cost of an 800sf home with two separate downstairs sleeping areas, e.g. one for a twin and one for a queen? The 400sf house I'm looking at buying has those and is going to cost $100k, and boasts fewer extra square feet for me to maintain.
Sorry for the late reply. I’d think you could build 800 sq ft for less than $100k by subbing your own contractors. This is provided you already have the lot and use a basic floor plan with contractor grade finishes. The more you do yourself, the more you save.
VTI and chill until 57...
rockstar
Posts: 6326
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by rockstar »

I grew up in a house that was only 700 sqft. But it had an unfinished basement. It was over a hundred years old. Tiny houses used to be the norm. This frustrates my retired mom when she watches HGTV.

I’d look at older homes. The challenge is that they’re being torn down and replaced with McMansions. This is happening with the neighborhood of my significant other. Her parents live off a lake. Their house is maybe 1800 sqft. But homes like it are being torn down and replaced.
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by TN_Boy »

Veiled wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:48 am
MillennialFinance19 wrote: Thu May 18, 2023 7:52 pm Have you considered building your own small home? If you do this, you can really control costs. A square or rectangle home around 800 square feet isn’t terribly expensive. If you use a loft for the bedroom it could be roomy as well.
I think this is Watty's thought as well, that an 800sf home won't be very costly. But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.

I'd be interested in what the cost would look like, though, out of curiosity and in the spirit of being thorough. I haven't considered building from scratch because everyone I know (except one incredible architect) hated the project by the time they finished the build. I'm not interested in upstairs/loft sleeping because I don't think that's a solution that's stable long-term for aging knees. What would your thought be on the cost of an 800sf home with two separate downstairs sleeping areas, e.g. one for a twin and one for a queen? The 400sf house I'm looking at buying has those and is going to cost $100k, and boasts fewer extra square feet for me to maintain.
I don't really understand this comment:
But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.
Or rather, do you really think the upkeep on an 800 sq foot house would be substantially more than a 300 or 400 square foot house? I mean, I have trouble seeing this as significant (an hour a week tops?) and the extra storage space and entertainment options would make the bigger option a lot nicer.

I looked at the designs you posted. Caveat: I've not been in a tiny house. But I had the following reactions:

1) You are not going to have to worry about having guests over. When people are deciding where to get together, they will fall all over themselves offering their place before wedging themselves into your tiny house.
2) Are the designs wheelchair/walker accessible? If you really want to age in place, you need space for things like that, even if the need is only temporary.
3) Two bathrooms would be really nice ... one for you, one for guests, etc.
4) You never plan on having hobbies which require objects taking up space? Cause ... the tiny house doesn't have much storage space.

But, I get you are trying to go really minimalist and if that works for you, whatever. I had a studio apartment in school, and it was just fine to live in, study in, etc. But it would be tough having that as a forever place to live.
maroon
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:59 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by maroon »

I'm enjoying this discussion. OP, I live in a tiny house (a stick-built house, not a house on wheels). I'd be happy to answer questions if you'd like to PM me.
dcabler
Posts: 4542
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:30 am
Location: TX

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by dcabler »

Random Poster wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:15 pm Why not just get a small condo in downtown Austin and call it a day?

Less hassle, still provides you with ownership of something, will likely appreciate more than a stand alone tiny house would, and would likely allow you to simplify your life quite a bit (might not even need a car, for example).
I live in Austin. The price differential between a tiny home in the burbs and a downtown condo is like the distance between Mercury and Pluto...

Cheers.
hoofaman
Posts: 973
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by hoofaman »

Wouldn't this be a lot more work than just buying an existing house in the same area? I am sure you could find a turn key, existing 2-3 bedroom 1000sqft house that would cost you less money then undertaking this project. I don't see you how make your life easier undertaking the building of a house, have you ever gone through that process before? Wouldn't you also expect to lose money on the eventual sale if most buyers want a normal house?

And wouldn't a "tiny house" still need the same things as a normal house? (HVAC, electricity, plumbing, internet, kitchen, bathroom, etc). Wouldn't basic appliances consume most of your space, or are you going to do laundry by hand in wash basin outside? I'm not really understanding this fad or the benefits
cs412a
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:37 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by cs412a »

Veiled wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 8:06 pm
Nightowl99 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:11 pm Could you build a large fence around the tiny home to make it appear bigger than it really is on the outside?
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 7:33 pmOr a full, wrap around porch...
Oooooh interesting ideas. There are tiny models with wraparound porches. I'm planning on a front and back porch but not one that wraps around, and I'm planning on a detached garage with a gable at right angles to that of the house for visual variety. Might add a wee guestroom above the garage. Hadn't given a lot of thought to fence style other than the fact that I need one. I'm sure that'll an actionable question later...
OP, you have (naturally) focused on the house you want, but I'm curious about the size of the lot and garage. For raising a family or pet ownership, having a house on a lot is a plus - room for the kids to play, easier to walk/exercise dogs. It's nice to have a yard for a garden, deck or porch. At the same time, it's a fair amount of work to maintain. As my sisters with homes have grown older, that upkeep is more and more onerous. You can always pay to have someone do it, of course (my mom did without any problem). Or move to a condo when you get older.

I'm not surprised you want a garage for your car (and presumably storage space in the garage). But I'm curious how much additional square footage that adds to your living space. Apparently, single car garages are ~330 square feet, on average (https://www.eshutilitybuildings.com/art ... age-sizes/), which is almost as large as the tiny home you've described. Shouldn't you be including square footage of the garage in your footprint?
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

rockstar wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:56 am I grew up in a house that was only 700 sqft. But it had an unfinished basement. It was over a hundred years old. Tiny houses used to be the norm. This frustrates my retired mom when she watches HGTV.

I’d look at older homes. The challenge is that they’re being torn down and replaced with McMansions. This is happening with the neighborhood of my significant other. Her parents live off a lake. Their house is maybe 1800 sqft. But homes like it are being torn down and replaced.
I feel similarly to your mom. I have lived in places where the small homes aren't all gone, and during those parts of my life I've wanted to live in that kind of home.

But now that I live in a big expansive state, people seem to like to put up big, expansive houses...and I'm not into it.

I got a chuckle out of your mom's frustration with the fake "novelty" of modest homes.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

maroon wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:50 pm I'm enjoying this discussion. OP, I live in a tiny house (a stick-built house, not a house on wheels). I'd be happy to answer questions if you'd like to PM me.
maroon! I was hoping you'd pop in, I've seen you post in other places about your tiny house. Sending a message shortly.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

TN_Boy wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:35 pmI don't really understand this comment:
But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.
Or rather, do you really think the upkeep on an 800 sq foot house would be substantially more than a 300 or 400 square foot house? I mean, I have trouble seeing this as significant (an hour a week tops?) and the extra storage space and entertainment options would make the bigger option a lot nicer.

I looked at the designs you posted. Caveat: I've not been in a tiny house. But I had the following reactions:

1) You are not going to have to worry about having guests over. When people are deciding where to get together, they will fall all over themselves offering their place before wedging themselves into your tiny house.
2) Are the designs wheelchair/walker accessible? If you really want to age in place, you need space for things like that, even if the need is only temporary.
3) Two bathrooms would be really nice ... one for you, one for guests, etc.
4) You never plan on having hobbies which require objects taking up space? Cause ... the tiny house doesn't have much storage space.

But, I get you are trying to go really minimalist and if that works for you, whatever. I had a studio apartment in school, and it was just fine to live in, study in, etc. But it would be tough having that as a forever place to live.
I see a house like a collection of liabilities. Enjoyable liabilities, but liabilities nonetheless. These liabilities perform their functions most of the time, but they need maintenance, they sometimes need replacement, and some of them (e.g. kitchens) need an update to retain resale value. I want to minimize the list of liabilities. I'm not so worried about keeping things tidy as I am interested in not having to constantly have one or two things needing attention.

(1) Fair enough, if everyone wants to steer clear of my home I won't take it personally. In my small experience a few friends see this as an object of fascination and want to come for coffee. Maybe the type of relationships and events make a difference?
(2) Everything is accessible for walkers/chairs, except I would need to build a ramp, which I believe will be easiest onto the back porch.
(3) Pretty fair point, I have no counter-argument to make
(4) Currently my hobbies are running, reading (library/kindle mostly)...I suppose I could take up some type of craft, but I'd have to get creative if I started quilting or something...
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

cs412a wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:00 am OP, you have (naturally) focused on the house you want, but I'm curious about the size of the lot and garage. For raising a family or pet ownership, having a house on a lot is a plus - room for the kids to play, easier to walk/exercise dogs. It's nice to have a yard for a garden, deck or porch. At the same time, it's a fair amount of work to maintain. As my sisters with homes have grown older, that upkeep is more and more onerous. You can always pay to have someone do it, of course (my mom did without any problem). Or move to a condo when you get older.

I'm not surprised you want a garage for your car (and presumably storage space in the garage). But I'm curious how much additional square footage that adds to your living space. Apparently, single car garages are ~330 square feet, on average (https://www.eshutilitybuildings.com/art ... age-sizes/), which is almost as large as the tiny home you've described. Shouldn't you be including square footage of the garage in your footprint?
Fabulous, thank you for asking about the place I'm going to stick the house. I'm planning to buy a lot and probably xeriscape and/or pay someone to take care of the lawn to decrease the cost and my time spent on maintenance. The garage will absolutely add ~300sf and that's no problem for me. I'm happy to include that in my overall footprint if that would be more intellectually honest.

House = 400sf
Garage = 300sf - ish
Total = 700sf

I'm not trying to sell a story of being more any more trendy/extreme than I am. I'm just going small. As several have pointed out, this used to be pretty much the norm but now small houses aren't as available.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

Since cs412a asked about the lot, I thought I'd share more details since this is an interesting (weird) thing to do with land.

I am putting a tiny house in the greater Austin area, a relatively pro-tiny area in an already pretty pro-tiny state. There are four establishments which advertise to future tiny-dwellers in the area: two tiny house villages (Casata and Village Farms) and two parks (Bluebonnet's two locations). Casata and Village Farms are somewhat gentrified communities zoned as RV parks which don't allow you to BYOTH. Bluebonnet is an unapologetic RV park which allows you to haul in your own house. In googling you may find mention of a fifth, "Constellation ATX" which was a bust that never opened as far as I can tell. Manor Wildlife Tiny Village is another which doesn't have a ton of online activity and which is favorable for off-gride houses; they do not take park model RVs, which as you'll see is what I'm planning to acquire. I have heard rumors of two other tiny house communities starting in the greater ATX area in '23-'24, but can't find concrete online info. Finally, the last tiny home community in Austin (Community First! Village) is exclusively for previously unsheltered (homeless) persons, which fortunately does not describe me. Further out from the Austin area there are at least two more, but since distance is important I didn't dive into these.

If you're following along at home, you can search tiny house villages in your U.S. state, some places in Canada, Mexico, south America, and Europe from the Search Tiny House Villages.

There were 3 reasons I preferred not to live in a tiny house village. (1) Based on the expected commute to my work, I was staring down the barrel of some significant gentrification: I could only live at Casata or Village Farms. (Bluebonnets' locations wouldn't work, Manor Wildlife doesn't accept my planned model, and I didn't want to wait for potential disappointment from the possible new ones.) While I have no judgment for those living there in very modest means, I preferred not to do that. (2) I didn't like the floorplans available at Casata or Village Farms. They're all safe and beautiful, I just wanted two downstairs sleeping areas and none of their plans offered that. (3) I priced out the financial aspects of TH village vs TH on your own land: at least in the village I'd consider given its location, I'd pay 9k/yr for spot rental and lose out on appreciation (maybe 15k appreciation on a 2/1 on a 5000sf lot in Austin). Even if that means I avoid home maintenance and property tax (maybe 9k put together), I am still losing money while living in a TH. The TH lifestyle is attractive, but is not worth five digits of annual opportunity cost to me. So, I looked in to buying land and placing a tiny house of my choosing on that land. While this might not appreciate as much as a traditional home, it stands to appreciate at least a little, meaning that I'm not as gouged by my housing choice.

I looked for lots which fit what I thought was the general set of laws in Texas (lot >=5000sf) in neighborhoods where a tiny house wouldn't look ridiculously out of place, e.g. those with small starter homes, and was ready to start buying and working on utilities, when I realized something. While trying to educate myself about property tax, I went down a rabbit hole when I realized that a park model RV, which I planned to use as a primary residence, would be taxed as an RV, i.e. as a vehicle with a VIN (at purchase), and not annually as if it were a home/real estate. I discovered that RVIA does not support the use of items certified by them as houses affixed to real property. Park model RVs were introduced as a separate category in 2012, and as late as 2017 RVIA kept track of different states' laws about them here. Even if I went to all the trouble of taking my park model TH off its trailer and placing on a pier and beam foundation or pivot and buy a different tiny house that is built for a foundation, I might be sitting on a rather large discrepancy in code requirements. (These people say they have a patented floor system that can be placed on a foundation, but would still be classed as RVs or modular homes, which are not permitted in most areas of my city.) So (as perhaps many wiser BHs realized long before I did) I needed to actively prove to myself that codes and zoning would explicitly permit a tiny house, I couldn't just buy urban land a plop a TH on it as a primary residence.

There are a disproportionate number of tiny home retailers in Texas because of their popularity in more rural areas. Park model RVs have exploded in popularity between 2012-2023 because Texas is on balance, favorable to placing tinies on rural land. I mistakenly believed that the popularity of PMRV's meant that there was a defined path to living in them...but that is for rural folks, legitimate campgrounds, or people with big plots of land behind their lakehouses who want an ADU for their grandkids to visit.

But I wasn't going to be putting my tiny on acreage in a county outside of city limits. Like I mentioned, my job keeps me tethered to urban areas. So, I found my municipal code details at Municode, and searched for "visitability," "modular home," "manufactured home," and "recreational vehicle," and the results suggested that either I would have an RV in a campground or RV park, or park an RV in a trailer/mobile home park, or that I could go through a lengthy inspection process to get my PMRV promoted to a manufactured home and that I would still have to put it in a park.

I met with a representative of the city's residential building code office, and then another one in zoning. I looked in multiple suburbs as well--suburb A doesn't allow modular homes (even though I've driven past some manufactured ones while lot shopping...must have been grandfathered). Stick-built homes can't be 400sf in suburb A. Suburb B allows manufactured/modular homes and property would appreciate in value. So, a lot in suburb B is the current plan. To avoid wasting city officials' time, I always looked up the city's website and attempted to read about codes, zoning, and requirements there. This would usually lead me to a PDF which described building requirements or a zoning map. If my question was answered, I wouldn't clarify. If my question wasn't answered, I emailed the city and usually got a message back the same day. Nowadays it's so much easier to make (virtual) appointments with city officials and talk to them for 10 minutes during your work day rather than hauling down to a government building, paying for parking, etc.

My next and hopefully last appointment about the legality of tiny homes on land I want to buy is actually tomorrow morning. Everyone wish me luck. :beer
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by TN_Boy »

Veiled wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 6:04 pm
TN_Boy wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:35 pmI don't really understand this comment:
But my goal isn't to save money, it's to not have to look after unused square footage.
Or rather, do you really think the upkeep on an 800 sq foot house would be substantially more than a 300 or 400 square foot house? I mean, I have trouble seeing this as significant (an hour a week tops?) and the extra storage space and entertainment options would make the bigger option a lot nicer.

I looked at the designs you posted. Caveat: I've not been in a tiny house. But I had the following reactions:

1) You are not going to have to worry about having guests over. When people are deciding where to get together, they will fall all over themselves offering their place before wedging themselves into your tiny house.
2) Are the designs wheelchair/walker accessible? If you really want to age in place, you need space for things like that, even if the need is only temporary.
3) Two bathrooms would be really nice ... one for you, one for guests, etc.
4) You never plan on having hobbies which require objects taking up space? Cause ... the tiny house doesn't have much storage space.

But, I get you are trying to go really minimalist and if that works for you, whatever. I had a studio apartment in school, and it was just fine to live in, study in, etc. But it would be tough having that as a forever place to live.
I see a house like a collection of liabilities. Enjoyable liabilities, but liabilities nonetheless. These liabilities perform their functions most of the time, but they need maintenance, they sometimes need replacement, and some of them (e.g. kitchens) need an update to retain resale value. I want to minimize the list of liabilities. I'm not so worried about keeping things tidy as I am interested in not having to constantly have one or two things needing attention.

(1) Fair enough, if everyone wants to steer clear of my home I won't take it personally. In my small experience a few friends see this as an object of fascination and want to come for coffee. Maybe the type of relationships and events make a difference?
(2) Everything is accessible for walkers/chairs, except I would need to build a ramp, which I believe will be easiest onto the back porch.
(3) Pretty fair point, I have no counter-argument to make
(4) Currently my hobbies are running, reading (library/kindle mostly)...I suppose I could take up some type of craft, but I'd have to get creative if I started quilting or something...
On 1), I just know that when I was in smaller quarters, it was too cramped for gatherings, plus you have to keep every square foot neat (which granted, is good idea anyway; forced good housekeeping!). You'll know once the novelty value wears off if people are happy to visit. But it would be pretty tight in there. Even in the Stone Canyon option, the living room is 8 x 13, which is pretty small once you throw a couch, TV, chairs ...

For 4) I realized you are planning on a garage, so it could house things like a bicycle, tools, kayaks ... stuff that didn't need temperature control. You are still limited in heated storage, but the garage space could handle a lot of stuff if done well.

On the maintenance worries, I still can't see how an 800 square foot house would require more maintenance than a 400 square foot house. Both will have some kind of roof, plumbing, water heater, W/D, fridge, HVAC, electrical wiring, etc etc. Just making the rooms a bit bigger would not alter things much. Unless the larger footprint had more appliances, versus just a slightly bigger HVAC system, a bit more plumbing, etc I don't think it would matter, at least based on owning three different houses (okay, none were tiny ....).

But if the goal is go small, go small I reckon.
User avatar
William Million
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 4:41 am
Location: A Deep Mountain

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by William Million »

Great plan. If it were not in a desirable urban area with other tiny houses, I'd be very leery of resale value. I'm still a bit concerned but suspect it'll be ok if the house doesn't look too much like something out of a trailer park.
beachtech
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:23 am
Contact:

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by beachtech »

I bought a small house (but not tiny) two years ago. It’s my first house. It was built in 1900, was a rental property for over a decade, and needed a lot of work. I assumed smaller house meant smaller renovation costs (time/money).

With few exceptions, I’ve been very surprised at how little of the renovation / maintenance / operating costs have anything to do with the square footage.

Instead, I found these costs are dominated by:

1. Transaction/research/hiring costs: still have to spend the same unit of time to find a roofer, find an electrician — and smaller jobs may be less appealing to them.

2. System costs: just as many electric panels, furnaces, refrigerators, etc as a much larger house.

Small house has less redundancy. If you have two toilets and one breaks, it’s an inconvenience. If you have one and it breaks…

I’m also glad that I have an unfinished basement for the mechanicals. If considering a tiny house: how accessible and serviceable is everything? How freezeproof / weatherproof?

Still happy with my small house. But my assumptions about smaller meaning proportionally less maintenance was mostly incorrect.
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by TN_Boy »

beachtech wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 am I bought a small house (but not tiny) two years ago. It’s my first house. It was built in 1900, was a rental property for over a decade, and needed a lot of work. I assumed smaller house meant smaller renovation costs (time/money).

With few exceptions, I’ve been very surprised at how little of the renovation / maintenance / operating costs have anything to do with the square footage.

Instead, I found these costs are dominated by:

1. Transaction/research/hiring costs: still have to spend the same unit of time to find a roofer, find an electrician — and smaller jobs may be less appealing to them.

2. System costs: just as many electric panels, furnaces, refrigerators, etc as a much larger house.

Small house has less redundancy. If you have two toilets and one breaks, it’s an inconvenience. If you have one and it breaks…

I’m also glad that I have an unfinished basement for the mechanicals. If considering a tiny house: how accessible and serviceable is everything? How freezeproof / weatherproof?

Still happy with my small house. But my assumptions about smaller meaning proportionally less maintenance was mostly incorrect.
Your experience would be my expectation. I wouldn't really expect "less" maintenance. Obviously certain things will be cheaper. New flooring? Well, square footage to be replaced has a lot to do with the cost. Same for roof replacement, etc. Anything area related. But if you need a plumber, an electrician, HVAC ... probably pay about the same. The best way to lower maintenance costs is to have a new/newish home with reliable appliances and be sure you are diligent about preventing water leaks, etc.

Your experience having trouble getting people to do "smaller jobs" is something all of us with homes are seeing and at least in my area, have been seeing for years. Have a minor kitchen update? Well, the well reviewed outfits are busy doing 20k and 30k remodels. Add some cabinets to a laundry room? Even the big box retailers (Lowes, Home Depot, etc) subs may not want that small job. It's tough to get someone to do small jobs. You wind up looking into finding skilled handymen that will do that kind of work.
rockstar
Posts: 6326
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by rockstar »

Veiled wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:56 pm
rockstar wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 11:56 am I grew up in a house that was only 700 sqft. But it had an unfinished basement. It was over a hundred years old. Tiny houses used to be the norm. This frustrates my retired mom when she watches HGTV.

I’d look at older homes. The challenge is that they’re being torn down and replaced with McMansions. This is happening with the neighborhood of my significant other. Her parents live off a lake. Their house is maybe 1800 sqft. But homes like it are being torn down and replaced.
I feel similarly to your mom. I have lived in places where the small homes aren't all gone, and during those parts of my life I've wanted to live in that kind of home.

But now that I live in a big expansive state, people seem to like to put up big, expansive houses...and I'm not into it.

I got a chuckle out of your mom's frustration with the fake "novelty" of modest homes.
They’re cheaper to maintain. But now they’re either in historic neighborhoods or bad ones. Both are cases where they’re not being torn down. But being older homes they have their own problems.
User avatar
Topic Author
Veiled
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by Veiled »

TN_Boy wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:48 am
beachtech wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 am I bought a small house (but not tiny) two years ago. It’s my first house. It was built in 1900, was a rental property for over a decade, and needed a lot of work. I assumed smaller house meant smaller renovation costs (time/money).

With few exceptions, I’ve been very surprised at how little of the renovation / maintenance / operating costs have anything to do with the square footage.

Instead, I found these costs are dominated by:

1. Transaction/research/hiring costs: still have to spend the same unit of time to find a roofer, find an electrician — and smaller jobs may be less appealing to them.

2. System costs: just as many electric panels, furnaces, refrigerators, etc as a much larger house.

Small house has less redundancy. If you have two toilets and one breaks, it’s an inconvenience. If you have one and it breaks…

I’m also glad that I have an unfinished basement for the mechanicals. If considering a tiny house: how accessible and serviceable is everything? How freezeproof / weatherproof?

Still happy with my small house. But my assumptions about smaller meaning proportionally less maintenance was mostly incorrect.
Your experience would be my expectation. I wouldn't really expect "less" maintenance. Obviously certain things will be cheaper. New flooring? Well, square footage to be replaced has a lot to do with the cost. Same for roof replacement, etc. Anything area related. But if you need a plumber, an electrician, HVAC ... probably pay about the same. The best way to lower maintenance costs is to have a new/newish home with reliable appliances and be sure you are diligent about preventing water leaks, etc.

Your experience having trouble getting people to do "smaller jobs" is something all of us with homes are seeing and at least in my area, have been seeing for years. Have a minor kitchen update? Well, the well reviewed outfits are busy doing 20k and 30k remodels. Add some cabinets to a laundry room? Even the big box retailers (Lowes, Home Depot, etc) subs may not want that small job. It's tough to get someone to do small jobs. You wind up looking into finding skilled handymen that will do that kind of work.
Hmmmm, beachtech and TN_boy, you're giving me plenty to think about. The "getting people to do smaller jobs" was something I had not thought about at all. Transaction/research/hiring costs/system costs are something I'd thought about, in the same vein as lot prep--needs to get done regardless of how large the structure is. Redundancy (e.g. one broken toilet = no toilet) is something I hadn't articulated to myself even though I had gotten past the single bathroom idea...

Great food for thought and for running some armchair scenarios before I buy a lot.
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Personal consumer details of a tiny house

Post by TN_Boy »

Veiled wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:10 pm
TN_Boy wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 8:48 am
beachtech wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:26 am I bought a small house (but not tiny) two years ago. It’s my first house. It was built in 1900, was a rental property for over a decade, and needed a lot of work. I assumed smaller house meant smaller renovation costs (time/money).

With few exceptions, I’ve been very surprised at how little of the renovation / maintenance / operating costs have anything to do with the square footage.

Instead, I found these costs are dominated by:

1. Transaction/research/hiring costs: still have to spend the same unit of time to find a roofer, find an electrician — and smaller jobs may be less appealing to them.

2. System costs: just as many electric panels, furnaces, refrigerators, etc as a much larger house.

Small house has less redundancy. If you have two toilets and one breaks, it’s an inconvenience. If you have one and it breaks…

I’m also glad that I have an unfinished basement for the mechanicals. If considering a tiny house: how accessible and serviceable is everything? How freezeproof / weatherproof?

Still happy with my small house. But my assumptions about smaller meaning proportionally less maintenance was mostly incorrect.
Your experience would be my expectation. I wouldn't really expect "less" maintenance. Obviously certain things will be cheaper. New flooring? Well, square footage to be replaced has a lot to do with the cost. Same for roof replacement, etc. Anything area related. But if you need a plumber, an electrician, HVAC ... probably pay about the same. The best way to lower maintenance costs is to have a new/newish home with reliable appliances and be sure you are diligent about preventing water leaks, etc.

Your experience having trouble getting people to do "smaller jobs" is something all of us with homes are seeing and at least in my area, have been seeing for years. Have a minor kitchen update? Well, the well reviewed outfits are busy doing 20k and 30k remodels. Add some cabinets to a laundry room? Even the big box retailers (Lowes, Home Depot, etc) subs may not want that small job. It's tough to get someone to do small jobs. You wind up looking into finding skilled handymen that will do that kind of work.
Hmmmm, beachtech and TN_boy, you're giving me plenty to think about. The "getting people to do smaller jobs" was something I had not thought about at all. Transaction/research/hiring costs/system costs are something I'd thought about, in the same vein as lot prep--needs to get done regardless of how large the structure is. Redundancy (e.g. one broken toilet = no toilet) is something I hadn't articulated to myself even though I had gotten past the single bathroom idea...

Great food for thought and for running some armchair scenarios before I buy a lot.
I don't think the "small job" problem really makes things worse for you. As I said, it's also a problem for big houses! Not sure how you will have the main house built (modular thing, etc) but surely the garage will via having a general contractor build it, install garage door opener, run power, etc. That's big enough to get someone to want to do the work I'd think, and that contractor might be able to help/have subs do other things for you as part of the overall work.

In my area there are "services" that have a pool of handymen (so far all have been men ...) that are bonded and licensed and we've used said services to do things like the aforementioned cabinet install. I don't know how the insides of your tiny house will be filled in (cabinets, etc).

As far as the one toilet, that would bother me long term a lot, especially in a house, but in practice I lived in two apartments in my life that had just one bathroom. With your tiny house, you should probably take the viewpoint that if something goes wrong, that means you will get a hotel room until problem is fixed, which is not an unreasonable fallback.
Post Reply