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harikaried
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Ford, GM, Rivian, Volvo, Polestar, Mercedes, Nissan, Honda, Jaguar, Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Toyota, Subaru, VW join Tesla

Post by harikaried »

Ford just announced their EVs will get a CCS-to-Tesla adapter for existing vehicles, but more importantly their future vehicles will use the North American Charging Standard (NACS), which is Tesla officially opening up their connector. Potentially this might lead to all EVs in the US directly plugging into Tesla Supercharger network for Level 3 charging and presumably regular charging for Level 1 and Level 2 at home and businesses.

Ford EV Customers To Gain Access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers; Company to Add North American Charging Standard Port in Future EVs
Ford wrote:Rebecca Tinucci, Tesla’s senior director of charging infrastructure: “We’ve spent the last 10 years building an industry-leading Charging Network that enables freedom to travel and provides charging confidence for our Tesla owners. We’re excited to deliver on our mission to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy by welcoming Ford owners, and other electric vehicles who adopt NACS, to our thousands of Superchargers across North America.”

A Tesla-developed adapter will provide Ford F-150 Lightning, Mustang Mach-E and E-Transit vehicles fitted with the Combined Charging System (CCS) port access to Tesla’s V3 Superchargers. Ford will equip future EVs with the NACS charge port, removing the need for an adapter for direct access to Tesla Superchargers, starting in 2025.

“Tesla has led the industry in creating a large, reliable and efficient charging system and we are pleased to be able to join forces in a way that benefits customers and overall EV adoption,” said Marin Gjaja, chief customer officer, Ford Model e. “The Tesla Supercharger network has excellent reliability and the NACS plug is smaller and lighter. Overall, this provides a superior experience for customers.”
We currently have two Teslas sharing a Tesla mobile connector with Tesla/NACS plug for charging at home, but we were thinking of installing a more permanent wall charger at home and at work. If other automakers switch to NACS, it seems like it gives us more future flexibility to buy and charge non-Tesla EVs? Previously, people around here have suggested installing a more generic J1772 for better compatibility, but this seems like it should change those recommendations?

Image

Edits adding more announcements:
Last edited by harikaried on Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:37 pm, edited 21 times in total.
cmr79
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by cmr79 »

Very very interesting development. I do think Tesla's NACS is a superior adapter, and the Supercharger network is by far the best in the business, but I had figured that the ship had sailed in terms of other major auto manufacturers adopting NACS because Tesla waited too long to open it up as an alternative to CCS.
billaster
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by billaster »

Might be a little late for Tesla to open their proprietary standard. The Department of Transportation and Department of Energy have already deemed the CCS connector to be the national standard. There is $2.5 billion dedicated to installing up to 500,000 public EV chargers, all of which must be CCS. Tesla applied for grants as part of this which means Tesla will be converting 7,500 charging station to be CCS compatible. NACS may soon find itself in the minority.

All of the Tesla cars sold in the EU are already compatible with the EU CCS version of the standard.

It's not yet clear what Ford plans to do. They will use a NACS to CCS adapter for the next two years and then add a built in NACS connector in 2025. But they haven't said whether the NACS connector will be standalone or side by side with the CCS connector. Seems it would be rather risky for Ford to hitch their future entirely to the whims of Elon Musk.

One of the issues is that NACS uses the same two wires for AC and DC while CCS had separate wires for AC and DC. This means that a NACS-only car requires a different electrical topology and big internal switches that can handle very high amperage to switch AC and DC inputs.
mrb09
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mrb09 »

billaster wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:53 pm It's not yet clear what Ford plans to do. They will use a NACS to CCS adapter for the next two years and then add a built in NACS connector in 2025. But they haven't said whether the NACS connector will be standalone or side by side with the CCS connector. Seems it would be rather risky for Ford to hitch their future entirely to the whims of Elon Musk.
Ford did say you can continue to use existing chargers, so I'm assuming that they'll keep the CCS port. Otherwise the Ford dealers that they made put in CCS charging stations are going to be very angry :). A Nissan Leaf is kinda like that, it has a separate CHAdeMO and J1772 port.

My understanding is that internally Tesla switched to CCS signal protocol a while back while keeping their Tesla/NACS physical pins, so adapters back and forth (like the Tesla->CCS magic dock on the Tesla chargers, or the CCS->Tesla adapter Tesla sells to owners) aren't that hard, at least they're not having to change the signal protocol.

Maybe CCS will need to be renamed ACCS (Almost Combined Charging System)
billaster
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by billaster »

The CEO of Ford clarified their position today. He says he thinks it's possible that NACS could emerge as the national standard so hedging their bet. Seems like a long bet given the Department of Transportation is spending $2.5 billion on CCS and Tesla is converting 7,500 of their stations to CCS and most of the rest of the world is CCS.

But it seems the stock market liked it. Both Ford and Tesla stocks jumped on the news.
zie
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by zie »

billaster wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:22 pm The CEO of Ford clarified their position today. He says he thinks it's possible that NACS could emerge as the national standard so hedging their bet. Seems like a long bet given the Department of Transportation is spending $2.5 billion on CCS and Tesla is converting 7,500 of their stations to CCS and most of the rest of the world is CCS.

But it seems the stock market liked it. Both Ford and Tesla stocks jumped on the news.
Just to be clear, The rest of the world(meaning essentially Europe) adopted CCS2, the US is on CCS1. The connectors are not the same. The evil details are described in IEC 62196-2. China and some other parts of Asia are doing ChaoJi, a totally different connector(but still mostly doing CCS protocol from what I understand).

The closest thing we have to a standard is the CCS communication protocol(which Tesla's NACS, CCS1, CCS2 and ChaoJi all do) but the physical ports cars are using are still all over the map when looked at across the globe.
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billaster
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by billaster »

zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:49 pm Just to be clear, The rest of the world(meaning essentially Europe) adopted CCS2, the US is on CCS1. The connectors are not the same. The evil details are described in IEC 62196-2. China and some other parts of Asia are doing ChaoJi, a totally different connector(but still mostly doing CCS protocol from what I understand).

The closest thing we have to a standard is the CCS communication protocol(which Tesla's NACS, CCS1, CCS2 and ChaoJi all do) but the physical ports cars are using are still all over the map when looked at across the globe.
CCS2 is CCS1 with two extra pins to accommodate optional three-phase AC, which is relatively common in the EU, even in residences, but only in large commercial locations in the U.S. China is also using a version of CCS. There seems to be general convergence on some form of CCS around the world except Japan which still is using CHAdeMO.

The only place Tesla's NACS is in use is, as the name implies, North America.

EVs are still in their infancy. It's going to take a few years for this all to shake out.
zie
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by zie »

billaster wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:14 pm
zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:49 pm Just to be clear, The rest of the world(meaning essentially Europe) adopted CCS2, the US is on CCS1. The connectors are not the same. The evil details are described in IEC 62196-2. China and some other parts of Asia are doing ChaoJi, a totally different connector(but still mostly doing CCS protocol from what I understand).

The closest thing we have to a standard is the CCS communication protocol(which Tesla's NACS, CCS1, CCS2 and ChaoJi all do) but the physical ports cars are using are still all over the map when looked at across the globe.
CCS2 is CCS1 with two extra pins to accommodate optional three-phase AC, which is relatively common in the EU, even in residences, but only in large commercial locations in the U.S. China is also using a version of CCS. There seems to be general convergence on some form of CCS around the world except Japan which still is using CHAdeMO.

The only place Tesla's NACS is in use is, as the name implies, North America.

EVs are still in their infancy. It's going to take a few years for this all to shake out.
Something I'm not sure you have internalized or understood from what I wrote: NACS also uses the CCS protocol. You seem to really dislike NACS, even though every physical connector is essentially geographically localized. It's not like NACS is some freakish outlier here.

Yes EV's are in their infancy, but I don't really see any region changing out their physical connectors anytime soon. The only real problem is the USA which has 2 competing physical connectors, I really hope one of them dies, it's just stupid to have them both. I personally could care less which one wins, I just hope one of them does sooner rather than later.
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
RichK
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by RichK »

Green Car Reports had the following comment from Ford regarding the switch to Tesla's NACS standard:

As new Ford EVs are introduced, it will be abandoning the CCS standard in the U.S. completely. When asked whether next-generation Ford EVs will have the CCS port, Ford replied to Green Car Reports: “Gen 2 EVs with the NACS port will have the option of charging at CCS chargers via an adapter.“

So it seems there will not be a dual port which makes sense from a cost and packaging perspective.

I have a Mach E. Ford's app presently works as plug-and-play (well, most of the time) with a number of non-Tesla providers. In 2024 there will be a NACS adaptor available that will enable Ford vehicles to use the Ford app with Tesla superchargers. I would be interested as it would increase charging flexibility on trips. Presently I use mainly Electrify America on trips, and the experience can be spotty. It requires planning your stops and doing anecdotal research to determine which charging station is likely to give you the best results. Tesla Superchargers would be more reliable, but the cord location and length is a bit of an issue.
TravellingTechOnFire
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 pm
billaster wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:14 pm
zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:49 pm Just to be clear, The rest of the world(meaning essentially Europe) adopted CCS2, the US is on CCS1. The connectors are not the same. The evil details are described in IEC 62196-2. China and some other parts of Asia are doing ChaoJi, a totally different connector(but still mostly doing CCS protocol from what I understand).

The closest thing we have to a standard is the CCS communication protocol(which Tesla's NACS, CCS1, CCS2 and ChaoJi all do) but the physical ports cars are using are still all over the map when looked at across the globe.
CCS2 is CCS1 with two extra pins to accommodate optional three-phase AC, which is relatively common in the EU, even in residences, but only in large commercial locations in the U.S. China is also using a version of CCS. There seems to be general convergence on some form of CCS around the world except Japan which still is using CHAdeMO.

The only place Tesla's NACS is in use is, as the name implies, North America.

EVs are still in their infancy. It's going to take a few years for this all to shake out.
Something I'm not sure you have internalized or understood from what I wrote: NACS also uses the CCS protocol. You seem to really dislike NACS, even though every physical connector is essentially geographically localized. It's not like NACS is some freakish outlier here.

Yes EV's are in their infancy, but I don't really see any region changing out their physical connectors anytime soon. The only real problem is the USA which has 2 competing physical connectors, I really hope one of them dies, it's just stupid to have them both. I personally could care less which one wins, I just hope one of them does sooner rather than later.
I have a CCS EV, and a NACS EV. I sincerely hope it is CCS that dies out. The plug is just so enormous and gangly. NACS is a much better design.

I agree, there is no worldwide standard. Every region has their own plug, so saying CCS is a global standard is just inaccurate.

With Rivian and Lucid in their infancy and struggling, they would be wise to strike a similar deal with Tesla.
cmr79
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by cmr79 »

It wouldn't make a lot of sense for Lucid with their ~900V architecture until Tesla rolls out the next gen Superchargers in the US. Their cars charge poorly when using Magic Dock chargers currently because they have to convert the lower Supercharger voltage to match the battery pack.
KarenC
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by KarenC »

The Munro Live folks have an interesting, albeit opinionated, take at https://youtu.be/zsNiupN1X7s
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool." — Richard P. Feynman
Topic Author
harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

billaster wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:53 pmThere is $2.5 billion dedicated to installing up to 500,000 public EV chargers, all of which must be CCS
You've mentioned that more than once, but even the former Ford CEO Mark Fields believes Tesla is now eligible for federal funding to build out charging infrastructure with non-proprietary NACS connector?

https://youtu.be/D23nxNhbGL0?t=99
billaster
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by billaster »

harikaried wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:18 pm
billaster wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:53 pmThere is $2.5 billion dedicated to installing up to 500,000 public EV chargers, all of which must be CCS
You've mentioned that more than once, but even the former Ford CEO Mark Fields believes Tesla is now eligible for federal funding to build out charging infrastructure with non-proprietary NACS connector?

https://youtu.be/D23nxNhbGL0?t=99
Tesla is getting IRA money to modify 7,500 of their charging ports to have CCS connectors. Only CCS ports are eligible for federal grants. Tesla is getting federal grants, but only for adding CCS connectors.

Musk tried to get a deal where he only had to put one CCS connector in an entire station, but the Department of Transportation is requiring a certain minimum number at each station in order to qualify.
hunoraut
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by hunoraut »

CCS2, while larger than NCS, can be done well.

Tesla’s European V3 superchargers uses CCS2 head but is slim and lightweight, and that even goes for the cable itself. And it does this while delivering 250kw to the cars.

Thats compared to any other charging providers (of which there are many), and even their own V2 hardware.
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harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

cmr79 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:57 pmI had figured that the ship had sailed in terms of other major auto manufacturers adopting NACS because Tesla waited too long to open it up as an alternative to CCS
Yeah, it'll be an interesting dynamic now with the top 2 EV makers in the US with more than ⅔ market share are using this standard going forwards. Presumably other automakers will eat into that market share pushing the current leaders under 50% as EVs become the majority of miles driven, but others might also switch especially if NACS is cheaper and the automaker wants to scale to millions of annual EV production.

The transition period that Ford and others will need to go through of taking care of existing customers with the old port will probably affect a relatively small number of vehicles if automakers plan on making even more EVs with NACS for the many years to come.
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harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

mrb09 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:40 amMy understanding is that internally Tesla switched to CCS signal protocol a while back while keeping their Tesla/NACS physical pins, so adapters back and forth (like the Tesla->CCS magic dock on the Tesla chargers, or the CCS->Tesla adapter Tesla sells to owners) aren't that hard, at least they're not having to change the signal protocol.
Oh that's interesting. I would guess Tesla updated vehicle charging software in 2018 so that Europe Model 3s would support CCS plugs ahead of new Europe S/X since mid-2019 not needing a CCS adapter and retrofit. Potentially Tesla vehicles were still using Tesla's protocol for Supercharging, and it might not have been until late 2021 when Superchargers in Netherlands had software updated to handle CCS protocol as part of the original non-Tesla Supercharger pilot.

As for Teslas in North America, some people used the official CCS adapter originally only available in Korea and required a late 2021 vehicle update to use. The CCS adapter only officially became available for North America in 2022 with retrofits needed for vehicles made before October 2020, so it seems like both the vehicle hardware and software were CCS-ready for a while probably due to the original development to support European vehicles.

It does seem natural for Tesla to switch to CCS protocol for their vehicles and Superchargers that then allowed for Ford and other automakers to be compatible with NACS connector.
mark_in_denver
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mark_in_denver »

TravellingTechOnFire wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:37 am
zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 pm
billaster wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:14 pm
zie wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 9:49 pm Just to be clear, The rest of the world(meaning essentially Europe) adopted CCS2, the US is on CCS1. The connectors are not the same. The evil details are described in IEC 62196-2. China and some other parts of Asia are doing ChaoJi, a totally different connector(but still mostly doing CCS protocol from what I understand).

The closest thing we have to a standard is the CCS communication protocol(which Tesla's NACS, CCS1, CCS2 and ChaoJi all do) but the physical ports cars are using are still all over the map when looked at across the globe.
CCS2 is CCS1 with two extra pins to accommodate optional three-phase AC, which is relatively common in the EU, even in residences, but only in large commercial locations in the U.S. China is also using a version of CCS. There seems to be general convergence on some form of CCS around the world except Japan which still is using CHAdeMO.

The only place Tesla's NACS is in use is, as the name implies, North America.

EVs are still in their infancy. It's going to take a few years for this all to shake out.
Something I'm not sure you have internalized or understood from what I wrote: NACS also uses the CCS protocol. You seem to really dislike NACS, even though every physical connector is essentially geographically localized. It's not like NACS is some freakish outlier here.

Yes EV's are in their infancy, but I don't really see any region changing out their physical connectors anytime soon. The only real problem is the USA which has 2 competing physical connectors, I really hope one of them dies, it's just stupid to have them both. I personally could care less which one wins, I just hope one of them does sooner rather than later.
I have a CCS EV, and a NACS EV. I sincerely hope it is CCS that dies out. The plug is just so enormous and gangly. NACS is a much better design.

I agree, there is no worldwide standard. Every region has their own plug, so saying CCS is a global standard is just inaccurate.

With Rivian and Lucid in their infancy and struggling, they would be wise to strike a similar deal with Tesla.

Absolutely agree. That CCS DCFC plug is terrible.

Most people aren't impacted if there are multiple checking standards worldwide.

Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
cmr79
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by cmr79 »

mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 am Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
Do you have a citation for that? Honestly curious...the best data that I've seen was the UC Berkeley study from last year that found 22% of CCS chargers were inoperable, but that was only looking at CCS chargers in the SF Bay area.
mrb09
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mrb09 »

cmr79 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 am Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
Do you have a citation for that? Honestly curious...the best data that I've seen was the UC Berkeley study from last year that found 22% of CCS chargers were inoperable, but that was only looking at CCS chargers in the SF Bay area.
That's my seat-of-the-pants experience with Electrify America, they usually have 4 stations, and often one is out of commission. That kind of makes sense, with 4 stations and if one breaks, there's a repair time involved, and they usually manage to fix it before another one breaks.

I think the problem is more on the point of sale side rather than the connector side though. I've never actually seen a broken connector.
cmr79
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by cmr79 »

mrb09 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:31 pm
cmr79 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 am Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
Do you have a citation for that? Honestly curious...the best data that I've seen was the UC Berkeley study from last year that found 22% of CCS chargers were inoperable, but that was only looking at CCS chargers in the SF Bay area.
That's my seat-of-the-pants experience with Electrify America, they usually have 4 stations, and often one is out of commission. That kind of makes sense, with 4 stations and if one breaks, there's a repair time involved, and they usually manage to fix it before another one breaks.

I think the problem is more on the point of sale side rather than the connector side though. I've never actually seen a broken connector.
That was the finding of the Berkeley study as well...usually screen or payment processing issues, not the physical infrastructure. EA complained that they might have double counted dual cord chargers, but at the same time it seems like they counted chargers that were delivering far below rates power as "working" from my brief skim, so probably valid arguments that 22% could be either over or undercounting the number of "inoperable" chargers.
mark_in_denver
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mark_in_denver »

cmr79 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 am Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
Do you have a citation for that? Honestly curious...the best data that I've seen was the UC Berkeley study from last year that found 22% of CCS chargers were inoperable, but that was only looking at CCS chargers in the SF Bay area.
4 Stations: 1 or 2 busted, 1 slow (which equates to almost useless), and maybe 2 working as advertised. When EA installed a station near me, within a few weeks one was busted for months.

50kW is not fast charging, Berkeley should have eliminated any and all of those chargers from their study.
hunoraut
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by hunoraut »

mrb09 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:31 pm I think the problem is more on the point of sale side rather than the connector side though. I've never actually seen a broken connector.
It is completely baffling to me that there is not (in my experience) a charging station with a simple, 1-action, RFID tap-to-pay option. There are parking meters and vending machines that do this, and obviously gas stations too, but not charging?

Most of them require downloading an app, registering an account, saving payment profiles, etc... and THEN turns out the station doesnt work anyway.
Valuethinker
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Valuethinker »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:21 am
mrb09 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:31 pm I think the problem is more on the point of sale side rather than the connector side though. I've never actually seen a broken connector.
It is completely baffling to me that there is not (in my experience) a charging station with a simple, 1-action, RFID tap-to-pay option. There are parking meters and vending machines that do this, and obviously gas stations too, but not charging?

Most of them require downloading an app, registering an account, saving payment profiles, etc... and THEN turns out the station doesnt work anyway.
You might not know this but at one time Los Angeles electricity supply was on a different frequency than the rest of the USA. I believe New York City that might still be the case (some old buildings?) ie not 60 HZ? Japan is *still* split between the German-originated grid (50HZ) and the American one (60HZ). The world's 4th largest economy and they sit on 2 incompatible regional electricity grids (there is special equipment to allow power flows between them).

There used to be towns with 2 incompatible telephone networks. People even had 2 phones 1 for each network.

What you describe is certainly present in some European countries, I believe. We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
hunoraut
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by hunoraut »

Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am
You might not know this but at one time Los Angeles electricity supply was on a different frequency than the rest of the USA. I believe New York City that might still be the case (some old buildings?) ie not 60 HZ? Japan is *still* split between the German-originated grid (50HZ) and the American one (60HZ). The world's 4th largest economy and they sit on 2 incompatible regional electricity grids (there is special equipment to allow power flows between them).

There used to be towns with 2 incompatible telephone networks. People even had 2 phones 1 for each network.

What you describe is certainly present in some European countries, I believe. We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
The most seamless I've found was with a (L2) Monta charger at a Danish hotel, where the box had QR code on it.

Scanning the code with my iPhone brought up a link directly opening the app.

Tapped once to choose using Apple Pay (there was also option for using a card), and another tap to confirm payment, and charging started.

Weird thing is I'd never installed the app, didn't approve to install the app, and it wasn't hosted through a browser either. Somehow the app simply appeared temporarily on the phone.... it was available during the charging session to monitor the charge and cost. And as of right now, it does not exist on the phone, for sure I'd never myself "uninstalled" it.

However it worked it worked well.
Valuethinker
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Valuethinker »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:11 am
Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am
You might not know this but at one time Los Angeles electricity supply was on a different frequency than the rest of the USA. I believe New York City that might still be the case (some old buildings?) ie not 60 HZ? Japan is *still* split between the German-originated grid (50HZ) and the American one (60HZ). The world's 4th largest economy and they sit on 2 incompatible regional electricity grids (there is special equipment to allow power flows between them).

There used to be towns with 2 incompatible telephone networks. People even had 2 phones 1 for each network.

What you describe is certainly present in some European countries, I believe. We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
The most seamless I've found was with a (L2) Monta charger at a Danish hotel, where the box had QR code on it.

Scanning the code with my iPhone brought up a link directly opening the app.

Tapped once to choose using Apple Pay (there was also option for using a card), and another tap to confirm payment, and charging started.

Weird thing is I'd never installed the app, didn't approve to install the app, and it wasn't hosted through a browser either. Somehow the app simply appeared temporarily on the phone.... it was available during the charging session to monitor the charge and cost. And as of right now, it does not exist on the phone, for sure I'd never myself "uninstalled" it.

However it worked it worked well.
That kind of thing sends a chill up my spine.

If you've ever read about Stuxnet the (presumed Israeli-US) attack on the Iranian nuclear centrifuges, which then "weaponised" that approach against embedded devices all across the world. There is some belief that what they did was spread contaminated USB keys around places outside the operation where staff would likely pick them up.

Certainly our USB ports don't work for anything other than charging. However I have heard of malware that can attack via the charger ...
cmr79
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by cmr79 »

mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:58 pm
cmr79 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:27 pm
mark_in_denver wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 am Ford did the right thing. Half the CCS DCFC chargers are busted. They must have saw the writing on the wall.
Do you have a citation for that? Honestly curious...the best data that I've seen was the UC Berkeley study from last year that found 22% of CCS chargers were inoperable, but that was only looking at CCS chargers in the SF Bay area.
4 Stations: 1 or 2 busted, 1 slow (which equates to almost useless), and maybe 2 working as advertised. When EA installed a station near me, within a few weeks one was busted for months.

50kW is not fast charging, Berkeley should have eliminated any and all of those chargers from their study.
They did describe an "operational" charger as one that is capable of charging at the rated speed and >= 50 kW, however they didn't mention in the methods or results section counting any chargers as non-functional due to lower than rated charging speeds. They also used a Chevy Bolt for some of the testing, which would have prevented them from identifying whether a 150 or 350 kW charger was able to charge at or close to a reasonable speed. Many issues with evaluating charger ability to do >200 kW, though (grid issues, other vehicles charging and total charger bank power limitations, temperature/vehicle limitations), so not evaluating charging beyond whether it was capable of charging a vehicle with at least 50 kW was probably a reasonable first step.

I'm still not clear, though...was your statement just a gut feeling based on the one 4-stall station near you, or was it based on some larger, more representative sample?
mrb09
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mrb09 »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:21 am
mrb09 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:31 pm I think the problem is more on the point of sale side rather than the connector side though. I've never actually seen a broken connector.
It is completely baffling to me that there is not (in my experience) a charging station with a simple, 1-action, RFID tap-to-pay option. There are parking meters and vending machines that do this, and obviously gas stations too, but not charging?

Most of them require downloading an app, registering an account, saving payment profiles, etc... and THEN turns out the station doesnt work anyway.
Hopefully the chargex-consortium will eventually help
evancox10
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by evancox10 »

Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:53 am
hunoraut wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:11 am
Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am
You might not know this but at one time Los Angeles electricity supply was on a different frequency than the rest of the USA. I believe New York City that might still be the case (some old buildings?) ie not 60 HZ? Japan is *still* split between the German-originated grid (50HZ) and the American one (60HZ). The world's 4th largest economy and they sit on 2 incompatible regional electricity grids (there is special equipment to allow power flows between them).

There used to be towns with 2 incompatible telephone networks. People even had 2 phones 1 for each network.

What you describe is certainly present in some European countries, I believe. We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
The most seamless I've found was with a (L2) Monta charger at a Danish hotel, where the box had QR code on it.

Scanning the code with my iPhone brought up a link directly opening the app.

Tapped once to choose using Apple Pay (there was also option for using a card), and another tap to confirm payment, and charging started.

Weird thing is I'd never installed the app, didn't approve to install the app, and it wasn't hosted through a browser either. Somehow the app simply appeared temporarily on the phone.... it was available during the charging session to monitor the charge and cost. And as of right now, it does not exist on the phone, for sure I'd never myself "uninstalled" it.

However it worked it worked well.
That kind of thing sends a chill up my spine.

If you've ever read about Stuxnet the (presumed Israeli-US) attack on the Iranian nuclear centrifuges, which then "weaponised" that approach against embedded devices all across the world. There is some belief that what they did was spread contaminated USB keys around places outside the operation where staff would likely pick them up.

Certainly our USB ports don't work for anything other than charging. However I have heard of malware that can attack via the charger ...
It was likely just an App Clip, nothing nefarious: https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/ ... 73ec53/ios
FoolStreet
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by FoolStreet »

If you have 2 teslas, I would certainly install the Tesla chargers at home. The discussion above is funny.

For work, there is a lot more info needed. Often, the cost is running electrical, not the end plug. I’m hesitant to offer an opinion since it’s not clear whether you are talking about two plugs in a workshop office or a row of 30 plugs in a commercial building. Also, unclear on your local users. Work chargers tend to be charge point j1772s and is appropriate for diversity.

Also, suggest making the chargers farthest away from the building to prevent misuse by engine cars.

Also, consider longer cables accessible 2 bays to the left and 2 bays to the right and on both sides of the aisle. This allows a morning charge by 2 cars and as long as they leave the chargers unlocked an after lunch crowd can charge, all without moving their cars.

Tesla is the only legitimate fast charger standard in North America. By the time any govt money is spent, Tesla will have built way more stations.

Check out this link for what new chargers are planned in your area.

https://supercharge.info/changes
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harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

FoolStreet wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:04 amFor work, there is a lot more info needed. Often, the cost is running electrical, not the end plug. I’m hesitant to offer an opinion since it’s not clear whether you are talking about two plugs in a workshop office or a row of 30 plugs in a commercial building. Also, unclear on your local users. Work chargers tend to be charge point j1772s and is appropriate for diversity.
I've thought about installing a couple Tesla chargers for an office parking lot for 20 vehicles where currently maybe 20% of regular vehicles are Teslas with maybe 1 not-Tesla EV visiting a week. So in terms of total time an EV is parked, it seems the current snapshot would already point towards NACS?

I suppose clearly these vehicles are fine without charging at the office, so there's no need to add 20 plugs. It seems like Tesla might be starting to provide ChargePoint-like services but most likely with NACS instead of J1772: Commercial Charging - Tesla eventually linking to a registration form:
Tesla Commercial Registration for Wall Connectors wrote:Tesla Commercial Services can be enabled on Gen3 Tesla Wall Connectors that are connected to either Wi-Fi or Cellular and have a signed Services Agreement with Tesla. A minimum of six units are required to be installed to be considered for this service.
  • Pay-for-Use Charging - Property Managers will be able to collect a fee for the electricity they provide drivers.
  • Property Manager Portal - Manage Tesla Charging assets, set pricing, and see analytics.
Presumably, the point-of-sale/billing would be the same seamless experience as using Superchargers of just plugging in, so Tesla owners get billed via their Tesla account while Ford owners through existing payment integration?

So regarding the last point of diversity, I suppose it will be tricky to predict even say 5 years into the future what the distribution of ports at the office will be, but making the most of the upfront running electrical costs, etc., does Ford switching to NACS also push level 2 towards that standard?
FoolStreet
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by FoolStreet »

Harikaried, I think this is getting beyond my ability to offer meaningful advice, so I will default to some tenets.

Is the goal to provide a nice perk to employees and you are okay having the business eat the relatively low cost of the kw the same way you might offer free coffee? If so, some ideas below.

First off, this is most easy if you have a gated parking lot (I'm imagining the parking lot from the tv show, "the office") or a secluded one, then consider providing unmetered free* usage to employees. You can either give it to them truly free, or you could offer some small subscription cost based on honor code of $20-$40/month or something like that. With that, I'd consider going ahead and installing some residential chargers, maybe a few Teslas and a few juiceboxes or equivalent.

Heck, you could install 120v outdoor plugs with long extensions and that would be appreciated. 120v is not bad. 3-5 kw/hr over an 8hr day is great and should be more than enough for a 1-way commute.

For the risk of "squatter" usage over the weekend, consider if it really matters. A 20-40amp charger is not going to charge so fast that people will want to take advantage of the free charger if they have to leave their car there all day. Consider if you are in a downtown or near apartments.

If instead, you really need to monetize your employees to get some rev-share of the cost of electricity, then that's out of my expertise. I just would lean to chargepoint and j1772 based on what is available today. I like the idea of doing a mix with Tesla since I drive a Tesla and they are the dominant car out there and 90% of what your employees drive, but I just don't have experience with the Tesla authentication protocols to provide any meaningful advice.

Here is a forum for Tesla charging infrastructure and those folks would know a lot more than I.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/ ... merica.78/
Topic Author
harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

Unsurprisingly, CharIN (Charging Interface Initiative association to drive adoption of CCS) is highlighting that CCS is a global standard while Ford switching to NACS has "negative impact on the handling of charging equipment." But CCS isn't actually the standard used in every region and has its own "handling" issues.

CharIN Response to Ford Announcement to use the NACS Proprietary Network

Although their numbers for North America connectors 22,262 CCS vs 22,128 Tesla showing basically even deployment don't match up with US Department of Energy's Alternative Fuels Data Center DC Fast EVSE port numbers of 15,883 CCS vs 21,133 Tesla for over 30% difference?

Is there potential for CharIN to prevent Ford or other automakers from switching from CCS to NACS?
billaster
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by billaster »

CharIN is a voluntary membership organization to coordinate and promote the CCS standard world wide. They can't force anybody to do anything. Both Ford and Tesla are members of CharIN, as are just about every EV manufacturer in the world. Tesla uses the CCS standard in Europe and is converting 7,500 ports to CCS in the U.S so CharIN membership would be expected.
mrb09
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mrb09 »

FoolStreet wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:54 pm Harikaried, I think this is getting beyond my ability to offer meaningful advice, so I will default to some tenets.

Is the goal to provide a nice perk to employees and you are okay having the business eat the relatively low cost of the kw the same way you might offer free coffee? If so, some ideas below.

First off, this is most easy if you have a gated parking lot (I'm imagining the parking lot from the tv show, "the office") or a secluded one, then consider providing unmetered free* usage to employees. You can either give it to them truly free, or you could offer some small subscription cost based on honor code of $20-$40/month or something like that. With that, I'd consider going ahead and installing some residential chargers, maybe a few Teslas and a few juiceboxes or equivalent.

Heck, you could install 120v outdoor plugs with long extensions and that would be appreciated. 120v is not bad. 3-5 kw/hr over an 8hr day is great and should be more than enough for a 1-way commute.

For the risk of "squatter" usage over the weekend, consider if it really matters. A 20-40amp charger is not going to charge so fast that people will want to take advantage of the free charger if they have to leave their car there all day. Consider if you are in a downtown or near apartments.

If instead, you really need to monetize your employees to get some rev-share of the cost of electricity, then that's out of my expertise. I just would lean to chargepoint and j1772 based on what is available today. I like the idea of doing a mix with Tesla since I drive a Tesla and they are the dominant car out there and 90% of what your employees drive, but I just don't have experience with the Tesla authentication protocols to provide any meaningful advice.

Here is a forum for Tesla charging infrastructure and those folks would know a lot more than I.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/ ... merica.78/
As an EV owner, I second this. I think Tesla calls the AC current EVSE's "destination chargers". Selfishly, as a non-Tesla, I'd prefer a J1772 connector, but a J1772->Tesla or Tesla->J1772 adapter is $100-$150 bucks, and if I was still commuting and my employer put in Tesla destination chargers, I'd be happy to spring for my own adapter.
dsmclone
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by dsmclone »

From what I've heard:

Tesla Superchargers are made in the U.S.
Electrify America charges up until now have not been.

To get government support, Electrify America will need to use U.S. built chargers. Once they start doing this, their reliability will most likely go up.
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harikaried
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

mrb09 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:15 pmSelfishly, as a non-Tesla, I'd prefer a J1772 connector, but a J1772->Tesla or Tesla->J1772 adapter is $100-$150 bucks
I tried leaving our J1772 -> Tesla adapter at a movie theater parking lot with 12 J1772 charging spots because I've only seen at most 4 EVs charging there and only Teslas, so I figured it would be more convenient for people to not need to hassle with the adapter each time. But sure enough, by the next time we went to watch a movie, it was gone. Fortunately, Tesla's adapter is only $50, and I guess we'll just keep it to ourselves now.

Looking at US DOE numbers for Level 2, J1772 is way higher at 113k ports vs Tesla 12k for public chargers. I would expect that to be quite different for private/home more matching the default plug of vehicles.
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harikaried
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by harikaried »

Looks like General Motors is joining the NACS party!

General Motors Doubles Down on Commitment to a Unified Charging Standard and Expands Charging Access to Tesla Supercharger Network
GM wrote:General Motors Co. announced today a collaboration with Tesla to integrate the North American Charging Standard (NACS) connector design into its EVs beginning in 2025. Additionally, the collaboration will expand access to charging for GM EV drivers at 12,000 Tesla Superchargers, and growing, throughout North America.

The Tesla Supercharger Network will be open to GM EV drivers starting in 2024 and will initially require the use of an adapter. Beginning in 2025, the first GM EVs will be built with a NACS inlet for direct access to Tesla Superchargers without an adapter. In the future, GM will make adapters available for drivers of NACS-enabled vehicles to allow charging on CCS-capable fast charge stations.

GM will also integrate the Tesla Supercharger Network into its vehicle and mobile apps, helping drivers quickly and easily locate, pay for, and initiate charging at available Tesla Superchargers.
mervinj7
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mervinj7 »

I am a happy ID4 owner and I think this is great news. I hope VW follows suit.
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runner26
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by runner26 »

So to you experts. Should someone considering buying a Ford or Chevrolet EV wait untill the Tesla port is in the new models, 2024 or 2025?
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by zie »

runner26 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:52 pm So to you experts. Should someone considering buying a Ford or Chevrolet EV wait untill the Tesla port is in the new models, 2024 or 2025?
The adapters are cheap enough, it is just less convenient. Using the adapter and a Tesla charger you have to install the Tesla app on your phone and wrangle everything yourself. It's much less convenient, but in the end it all works the same way. If you want the ultimate in convenience, just buy a Tesla now. If you don't mind waiting, Ford and GM both have basically said they are going to make it convenient for you(i.e. the car can tell you where the chargers are and setup billing, etc).

So with the built in stuff, it should work pretty much like a Tesla does, you drive up to a charger and plug in. It handles everything else. (after the initial one time setup in the car to tell it how to take your money, etc)

Without the built in stuff, you drive up, open your Tesla phone app and poke and prod the charger to charge while setting up the adapter and plugging everything in.

So the question is, how convenient do you want charging at a Tesla charger to be?
Whether rich or poor, a young woman should know how a bank account works, understand the composition of mortgages and bonds, and know the value of interest and how it accumulates. -Hetty Green
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Big Dog »

runner26 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:52 pm So to you experts. Should someone considering buying a Ford or Chevrolet EV wait untill the Tesla port is in the new models, 2024 or 2025?
If you don't need a new car today, I'd wait. (or buy a Tesla). Besides teh NACS, you should get much better system. (The Ford CEO had admitted that they have a ways to go to get up to Tesla's tech.). But if you need a new car today, you need a new car today.
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by seawolf21 »

mervinj7 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:06 pm
I am a happy ID4 owner and I think this is great news. I hope VW follows suit.
VW and other manufacturers will fall in line (in North America market) after GM announcement. Too capital intensive to build a competing network out when Tesla/Ford/GM represents close to 75% of BEV sales.
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mervinj7 »

seawolf21 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:02 pm
mervinj7 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:06 pm
I am a happy ID4 owner and I think this is great news. I hope VW follows suit.
VW and other manufacturers will fall in line (in North America market) after GM announcement. Too capital intensive to build a competing network out when Tesla/Ford/GM represents close to 75% of BEV sales.
One complication with VW is that they have a vested interest in the largest of the non Tesla FCDC networks, Electrify America.
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by mark_in_denver »

runner26 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:52 pm So to you experts. Should someone considering buying a Ford or Chevrolet EV wait untill the Tesla port is in the new models, 2024 or 2025?
I would think they would relocate the Tesla charging port to a better location, perhaps the front or back so you're not taking to two Tesla stalls.
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by seawolf21 »

mervinj7 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:11 pm
seawolf21 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:02 pm
mervinj7 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:06 pm
I am a happy ID4 owner and I think this is great news. I hope VW follows suit.
VW and other manufacturers will fall in line (in North America market) after GM announcement. Too capital intensive to build a competing network out when Tesla/Ford/GM represents close to 75% of BEV sales.
One complication with VW is that they have a vested interest in the largest of the non Tesla FCDC networks, Electrify America.
I think it is turning into a VHS/Betamax format war playing out again.

If additional manufacturers join Tesla/Ford/GM and/or their share of the market continue to grow, Electrify America's ROI goes out the door.

Building a charging network is capital investment, incurs ongoing maintnence, and there's only ROI if there are enough cars using them. It might be better ROI for Electrify America to adopt to Tesla standards.
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by TOM1964 »

Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
Hopefully the USA (and this forum) still welcomes those of us who are certainly not Anglo-Saxon in origin?

Perhaps you meant “Anglophone” or something less concerned with racial identity?
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Re: Ford and GM EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Flashes1 »

Tesla is changing our world for the better. Open source and EV stations help Tesla build market share, but not many companies have ever been so willing to help their entire industry. I'm not an "EV enthusiast" but if I bought an EV car, it would probably be a Tesla just to show of support of such a ground breaking company.
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Flashes1 »

TOM1964 wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:33 am
Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
Hopefully the USA (and this forum) still welcomes those of us who are certainly not Anglo-Saxon in origin?

Perhaps you meant “Anglophone” or something less concerned with racial identity?
Just an FYI: but the fella is British and I believes his tongue is firmly in cheek....just their dry sense of humour. Have a good weekend!
Valuethinker
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Re: Ford EVs (and other EVs?) switching to Tesla chargers

Post by Valuethinker »

Flashes1 wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:46 am
TOM1964 wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:33 am
Valuethinker wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:58 am We Anglo-Saxons tend to prefer a more "bottom up" anarchy, it seems.
Hopefully the USA (and this forum) still welcomes those of us who are certainly not Anglo-Saxon in origin?

Perhaps you meant “Anglophone” or something less concerned with racial identity?
Just an FYI: but the fella is British and I believes his tongue is firmly in cheek....just their dry sense of humour. Have a good weekend!
Thank you. "Anglo-Saxon" is probably loaded in North American discourse in a way I am now deaf to ("WASP" when I was growing up wasn't an epithet, and "The Preppy Handbook" was a best-seller, a book written by a very droll American woman of Jewish origin (I presume) that sent up WASPdom very efficiently. Also Nora Ephron I think had a piece about being married to a WASP. And the (Jewish) mayor of New York in Tom Wolfe's Bonfire of the Vanities reflecting on the strangeness of white protestants. Along with George Plimpton (and perhaps John Updike?), Wolfe was the great representer of that time & culture (I'd probably add William Manchester in Goodbye Darkness, about his journey from prep school to US Marine in the Pacific Theatre of WW2).

That line in Tom Wolfe "They seemed to worship at the country club and the bank".

I probably should have said "the Anglosphere" which would include Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom + former Dominions (Ireland and USA). It would also include, of course, the Caribbean island nations (and Belize). Then someone from Wales, Scotland*, Ireland (where there is an ancestral Celtic language) might bridle (plus the First Peoples of all those former colonies). And Quebec of course - French has officially equal status under the Canadian Constitutional settlement. Winston Churchill wrote "The History of the English-Speaking Peoples" and that might be closer to "Anglophones".

What I was wryly reflecting upon was that in contrast to states with a strong centralising tradition (France, but also Bismarkian/ Wilhelmine Germany) the Anglo-Saxon world went all anarchical (partly as first movers) -- British railroads (dozens of competing companies, boom and bust) v French (state planned system). Canada the pattern of railway development was very... Canadian. The Prime Minister of the time, Sir John A Macdonald (another canonical White Anglo-Scottish Canadian), cheated & lied to get a national railway built - to preserve a British Canada against American absorption. From Sea to Shining Sea as the line goes ... (modern historiography reminds us that the people who paid the price for building that railway were disproportionately the First Peoples, and of course the Chinese labourers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE3ISzalVuo )

From memory the 2 leading Australian colonies of Victoria (Melbourne) and New South Wales (Sydney) actually contrived to build railways with different gauges. There's anarchy for you.

* yes there is Gaelic in Scotland albeit spoken as a native language by only a handful of people-- less than 100k now. Destroyed by the Highland Clearances in the 19th C. But there is also "Scots" which is, depending on who you ask, a separate language or a dialect of English, related to Northumbrian (NE England) and Cumbrian (NW England). For a full-on version (you may need subtitles) see the film about addicts in outer Edinburgh "Trainspotting" - which is both exciting and horrifying and marked Euan McGregor (Obi-wan Kenobi)'s debut on the big screen (I think). It itself is a very rich language - particularly the invective.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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