New attending physician with a few questions

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peanut17
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Joined: Sat May 27, 2023 3:19 pm

New attending physician with a few questions

Post by peanut17 »

Hello,

First, I’d like to say thank you to everyone who participates in this community as I have learned an incredible amount regarding personal finance from this message board. This is my first post but I have read the Bogleheads Guide to Investing as well as the White Coat Investor books and have tried to live my financial life according to these principles. I have read previous new attending threads, but have a few specific questions and would appreciate any advice.

Briefly, I am 35 years old and am about to start my first attending (academic) position after many years of training in a very high cost of living city in California. At the moment, I am single, but would ideally like to be married in the future. I don’t anticipate having children. I will be renting for the foreseeable future (approximately 3,000 dollars per month), but would like to purchase a home in a few years; this would likely be 2.0-3.0MM for a reasonable home in the area where I live. I own a car and don’t anticipate needing a new one for at least a few years.

I have personal long-term disability insurance and will have some amount of short- and long-term disability insurance through my work. I do not have life insurance.

Debts: 0

Base salary: 400,000 per year

Anticipated expenses (inclusive of rent and disability insurance): 6,500 per month, perhaps a bit less

Assets:
- Roth IRA: 240,000 (primarily VTSAX, some QQQ)
- Traditional 401k from fellowship: 6,000 (Vanguard target date fund)
- Brokerage: 320,000 (primarily VTSAX; much of this was from a UTMA account)
- Savings: 10,000

I recognize that I am very fortunate to be in this position as a result of my parents’ contributions. They are willing and able to help me with the purchase of a new home, but I would like very much to not have to ask them for money in the future. At this point in my life I am happy for my asset allocation to be 100% equities. I will create a small emergency fund, but I anticipate all other (non-retirement) savings going to VTSAX in my brokerage account.

Questions:
1. From what I understand of my retirement accounts at my new job, I will have two retirement accounts options. For the main account, I will contribute 5% of my salary and this will be double-matched (10%) after my first year of employment. I can also make a supplemental contribution of 22,500 dollars to a 403b. It is my understanding that the total I can contribute from these two accounts is 66,000. Is that correct? If so, should I put my money in Roth or traditional accounts? My biggest knowledge gap is related to taxes and I genuinely do not know how to decide between the two (any reading suggestions related to this topic are more than welcome!).
2. I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
3. Does it make sense to rollover the 6,000 in my traditional retirement account and try to convert to Roth? Should I be doing yearly contributions to my IRA and then converting them to Roth? Again, I don’t understand enough about taxes, so perhaps this is a simple question.
4. Does this all seem reasonable? Is there anything I seem to be missing? This will be my first year with a “big” salary and want to make sure I set myself up for success as much as possible.

Thank you so much for reading!
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Duckie
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Duckie »

peanut17, welcome to the forum.
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Assets:
- Roth IRA: 240,000 (primarily VTSAX, some QQQ)
- Traditional 401k from fellowship: 6,000 (Vanguard target date fund)
- Brokerage: 320,000 (primarily VTSAX; much of this was from a UTMA account)
- Savings: 10,000
To avoid potential wash sales do not hold the same thing in taxable as in tax-sheltered. So consider putting something other than VTSAX in your Roth IRA. Options that won't trigger a wash sale are ITOT, SCHB, IWV, or VOO.

Are the taxable account and Roth IRA held at Vanguard or somewhere else? ETFs at most brokerages do not have transaction fees, but mutual funds that are not in-house do. Meaning, you pay a fee to buy a Schwab mutual fund at Vanguard but not a Schwab ETF.
From what I understand of my retirement accounts at my new job, I will have two retirement accounts options. For the main account, I will contribute 5% of my salary and this will be double-matched (10%) after my first year of employment. I can also make a supplemental contribution of 22,500 dollars to a 403b. It is my understanding that the total I can contribute from these two accounts is 66,000. Is that correct?
That depends. The $22,500 to the 403b is an employEE elective deferral and is part of the $66,000 limit. The 5% sounds like a mandatory contribution. If it is mandatory it is not part of the $66,000 limit. The employER match may or may not be part of the limit.
If so, should I put my money in Roth or traditional accounts?
Do you expect your income to be lower or higher in retirement. Most people's income gets lower and for them pre-tax employer plans and Roth IRAs are good.
Does it make sense to rollover the 6,000 in my traditional retirement account and try to convert to Roth?
You can either leave it where it is (forced transfers happen with less than $5000), roll it to your new 403b plan, or roll/convert it to a personal Roth IRA and pay the taxes. I personally would roll/convert and take the one-time tax-hit.
Should I be doing yearly contributions to my IRA and then converting them to Roth?
Yes. Use the Backdoor Roth IRA method.
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ram
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by ram »

peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm I am single, but would ideally like to be married in the future.
You are on the wrong website. :happy
Ram
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ram
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by ram »

peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm 2. I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
It is fairly common to recommend buying a home upto 3 times your gross income. This is feasible in places away from the coasts. But in high cost cities 3 times income usually can not buy a satisfactory home and stretching upto 5X ( 400K x 5 = 2 million) is reasonable.
Ram
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Outer Marker »

peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
Congratulations on your success. That is a high income, but with $400,000 salary, $2-3M is way too much house. As a rule of thumb, mortgage should be no more than 3-5x your salary, and most bogleheads would be on the low end of that. This would imply a home purchase price in the $1.2-$1.5M range. If you can rent for only $3,000 a month, that is likely a better solution for the foreseeable future. Keep in mind that mortgage interest on principle over $750,000 is not tax deductible. Don't be house poor.
snowday2022
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by snowday2022 »

Wait to buy home until you decide you like the job, you figure out the marriage thing, and where your spouse wants to live, and you have a higher income.
Retired 2017
Posts: 92
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Retired 2017 »

You don't need to feel rushed to do anything.
The fact that you have so much money now is quite remarkable. Now your desire is to do nothing stupid with your money.
Book suggestions. Taxes made Simple and Can I Retire by Mike Piper should help you .He may have also covered the topics on his blog.
Go to WCI site and read stuff. And then read more stuff.
Go to WCI convention in Orlando next year.
Read your 2022 1040. Also take last year's 1040 and do your 2022 taxes using Turbotax to get a feel of where the money goes. Run a few "what ifs".
You might benefit with a single consultation with a fiduciary CFP.
Get acquainted with your HR department at work to review your available choices.
Do not buy whole life insurance
Buy job specific disability insurance
Wait on the house
In your first Job out of residency you still have a lot of medicine to learning continually learn. Forget the ego. Respect your support staff.
Retired 2017
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:19 pm

Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Retired 2017 »

I forgot to add a couple of things
Get a prenup.
Get Umbrella Insurance
mhalley
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by mhalley »

Highly recommend signing up for the white coat investor emails and perusing his site. Lots of great info for the new attending.

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/free- ... ewsletter/

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/finan ... attending/
investorpeter
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by investorpeter »

1) $2-3M is too much house for a single person. Rent until you figure out the marriage and kids part.
2) If you are healthy and have low costs, sign up for a health plan that allows you to contribute to an HSA - max it out every year
3) Since you are above the income cap for Roth IRA contributions, you should definitely read up on how to do backdoor Roth IRA contributions
4) Beware of lifestyle creep - continue to live like a resident for as long as possible.
5) Your annual savings in your early years will have the longest period of time to develop compound returns by the time you retire, so continue saving in your early years.
6) The corollary to #5 this is that contributions to tax-deferred accounts will also accrue increasing tax liability as the accounts grow. So that why Roth IRA and HSA contributions are especially important while you are young and healthy.
7) I would still max out the tax-deferred accounts up to 66k if you can afford it, to reduce your tax liability.
8) Based on your salary and fairly limited expenses, you should be able to max out your retirement savings and have left over for a taxable account:

starting 400k salary
minus 66k pre-tax contributions to 403b
minus 3.65k HSA contribution
= 330k taxable income
minus approx. 50% state and federal tax
= 165k take-home pay
minus 78k expenses
minus 6.5k Roth contribution
= 80.5k annual savings for taxable account ( or ~$6700 per month)

If you can keep up that savings rate for 20 years, and keep plowing your savings into a BH-type portfolio, you will be set up for a very comfortable early retirement. The key is to keep your expenses low for as long as possible. I've seen so many young attendings buy that BMW or Mercedes soon after their first big paycheck. They say it's just their reward for their years of hard work in residency. But after that Mercedes, it's a mortgage to buy a $3m house, then an expensive divorce with alimony payments, and suddenly, they are living paycheck to paycheck with a 400k+ salary.
TacoLover
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

Hi. Welcome to Los Angeles. 403b I assume means academic? Wow that’s a great salary! I didn’t realize academics pats that much fresh out of fellowship!

1- I am about 20 years ahead of you right now. If you are certain you are going to be in California your entire life it might not make a difference if you do Roth or traditional 401(k) type retirement fund. I believe there is nowhere in the country you will be taxed higher as compared to here. if there’s any chance you might not retire in California, it seems to meet you would be better off deferring taxes now when they are the highest, if you think you might be retiring in nearly any other state that does not have such onerous taxes. I thought about converting some 401(k) to Roth , but I don’t anticipate retiring here and if I retire and say Florida, I will have throwing away money to the government of California for no reason.

2- I assumed Los Angeles, although San Diego or the bay area seem to be the other two very high cost areas for a position to live. $2 million in a very high cost of living buys a surprisingly small amount of house but at $400,000 pretax I would think that would be a tough stretch. unless you have wealthy parents that could buy the house with you. If this were 30 or 40 years ago, and there was a high likelihood, housing prices would go up up up. It might be worthwhile to cash out your Roth to invest in a house. I believe housing will continue to go up but watching all the productive people leave California makes me wonder a bit about the future.

3- as you already know, live like a resident for as long as you can!
FIRWYW
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by FIRWYW »

Congrats on moving into the attending role. I am envious of your starting balances and make sure you thank you parents for their part :).

You mention WCI. I would still go with his advice to “live like a resident for the first 5 years. That will help to avoid lifestyle creep and get you a good base (you may really enjoy the freedom of being able to say “no” with some of the crap that can go on with being an employed physician.

You should make your contributions pre- tax (traditional). Looks like your marginal tax bracket is 32% minimum this year and 35% for future years. Unless you are going to be taking out > $182k inflation adjusted dollars from tax deferred in retirement, you are almost gauranteed to be in a lower tax bracket in retirement (especially if you do get married). Even if marginal is not better, it is generally advisable to look at your average taxes in retirement vs marginal on contributions.

I agree the house seems like much and will make you house poor.

Your 66,000 limit is for all contributions from all sources. I am questioning what kind of plan you are contributing to the 5% to. If it is a 401k (which is what I would assume), YOU can only contribute $22,500 combined to the 401k and 403b. Exception would be if your plan allows after tax contributions that can be converted to roth (mega-Backdoor Roth) in which case you could contribute up to the combined 66k from all sources including employer match. You said it is an academic position so you may have a 457(b) that would allow its own $22,500 contribution.

Do a Backdoor Roth IRA and max out your Hsa as well (whether you cash flow your medical expenses and use this as another retirement account or not is up to your goals.
TacoLover
Posts: 655
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

I forgot to add. Life insurance is for people who need money after you die. If you are not married, and have no dependents, there is no reason for you to purchase life insurance.
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dogagility
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by dogagility »

Welcome to the forum.
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Is there anything I seem to be missing?
I'll second another poster's recommendation to fully-fund an HSA every year. It very likely makes sense to fund current medical expenses out of pocket and view your HSA as part of your retirement portfolio. Here's the wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_ ... e_the_plan

I also suggest purchasing the maximum amount of I-bonds each year. This will increase your tax deferred investment space. I understand you want to be 100% equities (which I support); however, I-bonds are valuable space because of the tax deferred nature of their growth and your high marginal tax bracket as an attending. https://tipswatch.com/i-bond-manifesto/
Make sure you check out my list of certifications. The list is short, and there aren't any. - Eric 0. from SMA
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HipCoyote
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by HipCoyote »

Retired 2017 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:33 pm You don't need to feel rushed to do anything.
The fact that you have so much money now is quite remarkable. Now your desire is to do nothing stupid with your money.
Book suggestions. Taxes made Simple and Can I Retire by Mike Piper should help you .He may have also covered the topics on his blog.
Go to WCI site and read stuff. And then read more stuff.
Go to WCI convention in Orlando next year.
Read your 2022 1040. Also take last year's 1040 and do your 2022 taxes using Turbotax to get a feel of where the money goes. Run a few "what ifs".
You might benefit with a single consultation with a fiduciary CFP.
Get acquainted with your HR department at work to review your available choices.
Do not buy whole life insurance
Buy job specific disability insurance
Wait on the house
In your first Job out of residency you still have a lot of medicine to learning continually learn. Forget the ego. Respect your support staff.
I could not have said it better. WCI is excellent for high income earners..and specific information for docs. They also have a feature where docs can ask questions and have them answered on their pod casts...this would be a good question for them.

As far as the marrying part...I have an unmarried daughter in that age group....just sayin.
TacoLover
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

dogagility wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:11 am Welcome to the forum.
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Is there anything I seem to be missing?
I'll second another poster's recommendation to fully-fund an HSA every year. It very likely makes sense to fund current medical expenses out of pocket and view your HSA as part of your retirement portfolio. Here's the wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_ ... e_the_plan

I also suggest purchasing the maximum amount of I-bonds each year. This will increase your tax deferred investment space. I understand you want to be 100% equities (which I support); however, I-bonds are valuable space because of the tax deferred nature of their growth and your high marginal tax bracket as an attending. https://tipswatch.com/i-bond-manifesto/
Actually I would argue the opposite. If you are putting money away for over 20 y from now you will have much more in equities vs ibonds. Which means you won’t be able to build up a large amount of ibonds bec only 10k per year. But for me I’d rather have that 10k per year grow at equity rate rather than inflation rate. Even if the market drops 50 percent the day you retire over 20 years you’ll still have more than if it were in I bonds. For me everything I think ill need over 20 y is in equities.
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dogagility
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by dogagility »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:02 am
dogagility wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:11 am Welcome to the forum.
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Is there anything I seem to be missing?
I'll second another poster's recommendation to fully-fund an HSA every year. It very likely makes sense to fund current medical expenses out of pocket and view your HSA as part of your retirement portfolio. Here's the wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_ ... e_the_plan

I also suggest purchasing the maximum amount of I-bonds each year. This will increase your tax deferred investment space. I understand you want to be 100% equities (which I support); however, I-bonds are valuable space because of the tax deferred nature of their growth and your high marginal tax bracket as an attending. https://tipswatch.com/i-bond-manifesto/
Actually I would argue the opposite. If you are putting money away for over 20 y from now you will have much more in equities vs ibonds. Which means you won’t be able to build up a large amount of ibonds bec only 10k per year. But for me I’d rather have that 10k per year grow at equity rate rather than inflation rate. Even if the market drops 50 percent the day you retire over 20 years you’ll still have more than if it were in I bonds. For me everything I think ill need over 20 y is in equities.
That's a valid view, in my opinion. Another person might want 20 years of accumulated I-bonds in retirement.
Make sure you check out my list of certifications. The list is short, and there aren't any. - Eric 0. from SMA
TacoLover
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

dogagility wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:07 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:02 am
dogagility wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:11 am Welcome to the forum.
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Is there anything I seem to be missing?
I'll second another poster's recommendation to fully-fund an HSA every year. It very likely makes sense to fund current medical expenses out of pocket and view your HSA as part of your retirement portfolio. Here's the wiki: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Health_ ... e_the_plan

I also suggest purchasing the maximum amount of I-bonds each year. This will increase your tax deferred investment space. I understand you want to be 100% equities (which I support); however, I-bonds are valuable space because of the tax deferred nature of their growth and your high marginal tax bracket as an attending. https://tipswatch.com/i-bond-manifesto/
Actually I would argue the opposite. If you are putting money away for over 20 y from now you will have much more in equities vs ibonds. Which means you won’t be able to build up a large amount of ibonds bec only 10k per year. But for me I’d rather have that 10k per year grow at equity rate rather than inflation rate. Even if the market drops 50 percent the day you retire over 20 years you’ll still have more than if it were in I bonds. For me everything I think ill need over 20 y is in equities.
That's a valid view, in my opinion. Another person might want 20 years of accumulated I-bonds in retirement.
Agree. To my mind - and I appreciate the benefit of ibonds that you will keep up with inflation - bills I need to pay in under 3 y is in cash equivalents bec will lose money to inflation but it’s only 3 y and it won’t go down. Money I need for 3-5 or 10 y is in bonds - needs to keep up with inflation - I’ll lose to inflation if it’s in cash - but needs to be not too volatile. Everything I need for over ten years from now needs ti grow not keep up with inflation - so that’s in equities. You need your money to grow tho and that won’t happen with ibonds or bonds in general. That is - ibonds are to keep up with insurance not to grow. Equities are to grow your money.
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White Coat Investor
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by White Coat Investor »

peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Hello,

First, I’d like to say thank you to everyone who participates in this community as I have learned an incredible amount regarding personal finance from this message board. This is my first post but I have read the Bogleheads Guide to Investing as well as the White Coat Investor books and have tried to live my financial life according to these principles. I have read previous new attending threads, but have a few specific questions and would appreciate any advice.

Briefly, I am 35 years old and am about to start my first attending (academic) position after many years of training in a very high cost of living city in California. At the moment, I am single, but would ideally like to be married in the future. I don’t anticipate having children. I will be renting for the foreseeable future (approximately 3,000 dollars per month), but would like to purchase a home in a few years; this would likely be 2.0-3.0MM for a reasonable home in the area where I live. I own a car and don’t anticipate needing a new one for at least a few years.

I have personal long-term disability insurance and will have some amount of short- and long-term disability insurance through my work. I do not have life insurance.

Debts: 0

Base salary: 400,000 per year

Anticipated expenses (inclusive of rent and disability insurance): 6,500 per month, perhaps a bit less

Assets:
- Roth IRA: 240,000 (primarily VTSAX, some QQQ)
- Traditional 401k from fellowship: 6,000 (Vanguard target date fund)
- Brokerage: 320,000 (primarily VTSAX; much of this was from a UTMA account)
- Savings: 10,000

I recognize that I am very fortunate to be in this position as a result of my parents’ contributions. They are willing and able to help me with the purchase of a new home, but I would like very much to not have to ask them for money in the future. At this point in my life I am happy for my asset allocation to be 100% equities. I will create a small emergency fund, but I anticipate all other (non-retirement) savings going to VTSAX in my brokerage account.

Questions:
1. From what I understand of my retirement accounts at my new job, I will have two retirement accounts options. For the main account, I will contribute 5% of my salary and this will be double-matched (10%) after my first year of employment. I can also make a supplemental contribution of 22,500 dollars to a 403b. It is my understanding that the total I can contribute from these two accounts is 66,000. Is that correct? If so, should I put my money in Roth or traditional accounts? My biggest knowledge gap is related to taxes and I genuinely do not know how to decide between the two (any reading suggestions related to this topic are more than welcome!).
2. I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
3. Does it make sense to rollover the 6,000 in my traditional retirement account and try to convert to Roth? Should I be doing yearly contributions to my IRA and then converting them to Roth? Again, I don’t understand enough about taxes, so perhaps this is a simple question.
4. Does this all seem reasonable? Is there anything I seem to be missing? This will be my first year with a “big” salary and want to make sure I set myself up for success as much as possible.

Thank you so much for reading!
1. It's not clear to me what your first account is, but it sounds like a 401a, in which case, you need to be aware of something:

403(b)s have two weird rules to be aware of. The first is that your 403(b) shares the same 415(c) (aka $66K total contribution in 2023) limit with your solo 401(k). The second is that a 401(a) and a 401(k) share the same 415(c) limit but a 401(a) and a 403(b) each have a separate 415(c) limit.

So in your case, you have two $66K limits to work with. You probably won't be able to max them both out, but maybe you'll be able to get more than $66K total into them.

The Roth vs traditional question is far more complicated than you might think. I've written many blog posts about it, the wiki has more about it etc etc etc etc. The main consideration is whether your marginal tax rate at contribution is likely to be greater or less than the effective tax rate at which you'll be withdrawing the money down the road. The rule of thumb is to use tax-deferred accounts in your peak earnings years and Roth accounts all other years, but there are many exceptions.

2. Depends on the income. My general rule of thumb is to keep your mortgage to < 2X your gross household income, but some people would stretch that to 3-4X in a HCOLA. If you want a $3M home, that would suggest that even with stretching you'll need a $1.4M down payment. Probably easier to marry someone else with an income similar to yours! I wouldn't do that. In fact, I'd probably seriously consider moving somewhere that I could buy that same home for $1M and probably reduce my other costs of living and tax bill and probably get paid more to boot.

3. Yes, so you can do a Backdoor Roth IRA each year without getting pro-rated.

4. Live like a resident for 2-5 years after finishing training. I have yet to meet someone who regretted doing that and many who actually did it (including me) agree that it was the most important thing they ever did when it came to building wealth.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
TacoLover
Posts: 655
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

White Coat Investor wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:08 pm
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Hello,

First, I’d like to say thank you to everyone who participates in this community as I have learned an incredible amount regarding personal finance from this message board. This is my first post but I have read the Bogleheads Guide to Investing as well as the White Coat Investor books and have tried to live my financial life according to these principles. I have read previous new attending threads, but have a few specific questions and would appreciate any advice.

Briefly, I am 35 years old and am about to start my first attending (academic) position after many years of training in a very high cost of living city in California. At the moment, I am single, but would ideally like to be married in the future. I don’t anticipate having children. I will be renting for the foreseeable future (approximately 3,000 dollars per month), but would like to purchase a home in a few years; this would likely be 2.0-3.0MM for a reasonable home in the area where I live. I own a car and don’t anticipate needing a new one for at least a few years.

I have personal long-term disability insurance and will have some amount of short- and long-term disability insurance through my work. I do not have life insurance.

Debts: 0

Base salary: 400,000 per year

Anticipated expenses (inclusive of rent and disability insurance): 6,500 per month, perhaps a bit less

Assets:
- Roth IRA: 240,000 (primarily VTSAX, some QQQ)
- Traditional 401k from fellowship: 6,000 (Vanguard target date fund)
- Brokerage: 320,000 (primarily VTSAX; much of this was from a UTMA account)
- Savings: 10,000

I recognize that I am very fortunate to be in this position as a result of my parents’ contributions. They are willing and able to help me with the purchase of a new home, but I would like very much to not have to ask them for money in the future. At this point in my life I am happy for my asset allocation to be 100% equities. I will create a small emergency fund, but I anticipate all other (non-retirement) savings going to VTSAX in my brokerage account.

Questions:
1. From what I understand of my retirement accounts at my new job, I will have two retirement accounts options. For the main account, I will contribute 5% of my salary and this will be double-matched (10%) after my first year of employment. I can also make a supplemental contribution of 22,500 dollars to a 403b. It is my understanding that the total I can contribute from these two accounts is 66,000. Is that correct? If so, should I put my money in Roth or traditional accounts? My biggest knowledge gap is related to taxes and I genuinely do not know how to decide between the two (any reading suggestions related to this topic are more than welcome!).
2. I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
3. Does it make sense to rollover the 6,000 in my traditional retirement account and try to convert to Roth? Should I be doing yearly contributions to my IRA and then converting them to Roth? Again, I don’t understand enough about taxes, so perhaps this is a simple question.
4. Does this all seem reasonable? Is there anything I seem to be missing? This will be my first year with a “big” salary and want to make sure I set myself up for success as much as possible.

Thank you so much for reading!
1. It's not clear to me what your first account is, but it sounds like a 401a, in which case, you need to be aware of something:

403(b)s have two weird rules to be aware of. The first is that your 403(b) shares the same 415(c) (aka $66K total contribution in 2023) limit with your solo 401(k). The second is that a 401(a) and a 401(k) share the same 415(c) limit but a 401(a) and a 403(b) each have a separate 415(c) limit.

So in your case, you have two $66K limits to work with. You probably won't be able to max them both out, but maybe you'll be able to get more than $66K total into them.

The Roth vs traditional question is far more complicated than you might think. I've written many blog posts about it, the wiki has more about it etc etc etc etc. The main consideration is whether your marginal tax rate at contribution is likely to be greater or less than the effective tax rate at which you'll be withdrawing the money down the road. The rule of thumb is to use tax-deferred accounts in your peak earnings years and Roth accounts all other years, but there are many exceptions.

...
he is currently in California. If there is a reasonable consideration, he will retire anywhere besides California, New York, or New Jersey. He should expect his taxes to be less when he leaves the state. I am in California. My plan is to retire somewhere outside California. So for me, it doesn’t make sense to use Roth space before pretax dollars art maximized. I would think it would be the same for him. Given how much money he makes every marginal dollar will be taxed at a very high rate. If he has a strong reason to be in California like all his his family is here and he will be returning in California then it is a harder decision.
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by ctjudge »

Why is there assumption in a some responses that the OP is a male?
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Artsdoctor
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Artsdoctor »

You're on the right track: White Coat Investor and Bogleheads will go a long way in helping. There's no reason to have a perfect plan right now since it's your first year out with a good income: take your time getting used to it. You might be tempted to spend a lot more now that you're making a lot more, but try to keep your expenditures low to start.

As a single person with a high income, your tax bill will be considerable. Tax-deferred accounts will be your friend so try to max them out--I wouldn't contribute to a Roth now given the tax rate. It sounds as if your employer is offering a 403 plus a pension/savings choice account given your figures (UC has this set-up, for example).

If you're interested in a house, you'll have to start for that at some point: a brokerage account with Total Stock Market alone isn't appropriate for saving for a down payment because of the volatility of the asset but I think you probably know that. The timing is variable but perhaps a house together with a future spouse might be an option which gives you more flexibility. If you're a physician near where I live in LA, the price range you're thinking about is not unusual but give yourself some time for that decision.

You made it out of training without any debt and seem to have evaded any insurance hard-sells, so congratulations. You're fortunate to have parents you can and want to help you, and it's very reasonable to include them in some of these decisions if you're comfortable with that.
Last edited by Artsdoctor on Mon May 29, 2023 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Young Boglehead
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Young Boglehead »

Even if staying in california, maxing out pre-tax over roth seems to makes more sense until you're getting into enormous amounts of money. You can always roth convert if you retire before 72 (or who knows when RMDs start at that point).
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by BernardShakey »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:23 pm
White Coat Investor wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:08 pm
peanut17 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:30 pm Hello,

First, I’d like to say thank you to everyone who participates in this community as I have learned an incredible amount regarding personal finance from this message board. This is my first post but I have read the Bogleheads Guide to Investing as well as the White Coat Investor books and have tried to live my financial life according to these principles. I have read previous new attending threads, but have a few specific questions and would appreciate any advice.

Briefly, I am 35 years old and am about to start my first attending (academic) position after many years of training in a very high cost of living city in California. At the moment, I am single, but would ideally like to be married in the future. I don’t anticipate having children. I will be renting for the foreseeable future (approximately 3,000 dollars per month), but would like to purchase a home in a few years; this would likely be 2.0-3.0MM for a reasonable home in the area where I live. I own a car and don’t anticipate needing a new one for at least a few years.

I have personal long-term disability insurance and will have some amount of short- and long-term disability insurance through my work. I do not have life insurance.

Debts: 0

Base salary: 400,000 per year

Anticipated expenses (inclusive of rent and disability insurance): 6,500 per month, perhaps a bit less

Assets:
- Roth IRA: 240,000 (primarily VTSAX, some QQQ)
- Traditional 401k from fellowship: 6,000 (Vanguard target date fund)
- Brokerage: 320,000 (primarily VTSAX; much of this was from a UTMA account)
- Savings: 10,000

I recognize that I am very fortunate to be in this position as a result of my parents’ contributions. They are willing and able to help me with the purchase of a new home, but I would like very much to not have to ask them for money in the future. At this point in my life I am happy for my asset allocation to be 100% equities. I will create a small emergency fund, but I anticipate all other (non-retirement) savings going to VTSAX in my brokerage account.

Questions:
1. From what I understand of my retirement accounts at my new job, I will have two retirement accounts options. For the main account, I will contribute 5% of my salary and this will be double-matched (10%) after my first year of employment. I can also make a supplemental contribution of 22,500 dollars to a 403b. It is my understanding that the total I can contribute from these two accounts is 66,000. Is that correct? If so, should I put my money in Roth or traditional accounts? My biggest knowledge gap is related to taxes and I genuinely do not know how to decide between the two (any reading suggestions related to this topic are more than welcome!).
2. I am not tied to the idea of purchasing a home immediately, but am concerned that even with a relatively high salary, a 2.0-3.0MM home is not affordable on a single income. Am I correct in that assessment or am I being too conservative?
3. Does it make sense to rollover the 6,000 in my traditional retirement account and try to convert to Roth? Should I be doing yearly contributions to my IRA and then converting them to Roth? Again, I don’t understand enough about taxes, so perhaps this is a simple question.
4. Does this all seem reasonable? Is there anything I seem to be missing? This will be my first year with a “big” salary and want to make sure I set myself up for success as much as possible.

Thank you so much for reading!
1. It's not clear to me what your first account is, but it sounds like a 401a, in which case, you need to be aware of something:

403(b)s have two weird rules to be aware of. The first is that your 403(b) shares the same 415(c) (aka $66K total contribution in 2023) limit with your solo 401(k). The second is that a 401(a) and a 401(k) share the same 415(c) limit but a 401(a) and a 403(b) each have a separate 415(c) limit.

So in your case, you have two $66K limits to work with. You probably won't be able to max them both out, but maybe you'll be able to get more than $66K total into them.

The Roth vs traditional question is far more complicated than you might think. I've written many blog posts about it, the wiki has more about it etc etc etc etc. The main consideration is whether your marginal tax rate at contribution is likely to be greater or less than the effective tax rate at which you'll be withdrawing the money down the road. The rule of thumb is to use tax-deferred accounts in your peak earnings years and Roth accounts all other years, but there are many exceptions.

...
he is currently in California. If there is a reasonable consideration, he will retire anywhere besides California, New York, or New Jersey. He should expect his taxes to be less when he leaves the state. I am in California. My plan is to retire somewhere outside California. So for me, it doesn’t make sense to use Roth space before pretax dollars art maximized. I would think it would be the same for him. Given how much money he makes every marginal dollar will be taxed at a very high rate. If he has a strong reason to be in California like all his his family is here and he will be returning in California then it is a harder decision.
I think OP might be a "she" :D
An important key to investing is having a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.
TacoLover
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

Young Boglehead wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:31 pm Even if staying in california, maxing out pre-tax over roth seems to makes more sense until you're getting into enormous amounts of money. You can always roth convert if you retire before 72 (or who knows when RMDs start at that point).
I don't disagree... my point was that if he thinks he IS going to end up outside of CA, deferring Roth until pretax retirement is maxed out is probably best. If he thinks he may stay in CA then it's probably a wash and probably still best to max tax deferred.
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ram
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by ram »

ctjudge wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:52 pm Why is there assumption in a some responses that the OP is a male?
Probably because male physicians substantially outnumber female physicians especially in higher income specialties.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/439 ... in-the-us/
Ram
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White Coat Investor
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by White Coat Investor »

ram wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm
ctjudge wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:52 pm Why is there assumption in a some responses that the OP is a male?
Probably because male physicians substantially outnumber female physicians especially in higher income specialties.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/439 ... in-the-us/
Not among young docs. Med school enrollment is now >50% women. I predict that 50 years from now it will look a lot more like nursing does now than like medicine does now.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
TacoLover
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

White Coat Investor wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:05 am
ram wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm
ctjudge wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:52 pm Why is there assumption in a some responses that the OP is a male?
Probably because male physicians substantially outnumber female physicians especially in higher income specialties.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/439 ... in-the-us/
Not among young docs. Med school enrollment is now >50% women. I predict that 50 years from now it will look a lot more like nursing does now than like medicine does now.
I was thinking along the same lines. The more I reread the original post, the more I thought woman. Saying something like for now not planning on having children, sounds like something definitive enough more appropriate for a woman to say rather than for a man to say about his wife.

I was thinking in terms of medical students. It’s probably at least 50-50 now, if not like university with more women than men. Then I thought for a high earner when I was in school women were much more likely to take lower paying jobs. That is to say much more likely to go into primary care as compared to surgical subspecialties. Then I thought the last few years that is changing. Way back when I was in training surgical training was several magnitudes more brutal than it is now. It would be very difficult to consider the possibility of marrying and having kids during a surgical residency. No training consumes substantially fewer hours over the course of the training program, it is much gentler and women’s priorities have shifted as well. The world is very different today compared to 20 or 30 years ago certainly in terms of medical training.
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by TacoLover »

White Coat Investor wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:05 am
ram wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:23 pm
ctjudge wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:52 pm Why is there assumption in a some responses that the OP is a male?
Probably because male physicians substantially outnumber female physicians especially in higher income specialties.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/439 ... in-the-us/
Not among young docs. Med school enrollment is now >50% women. I predict that 50 years from now it will look a lot more like nursing does now than like medicine does now.
I bet men outnumber women significantly still in the search for subspecialties. In my class I think we had two women. And that was pretty unusual. I bet it is not 50-50, but I bet it is closer to even.
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Artsdoctor »

^ I think we should probably re-focus on the OP's questions rather than debate the gender make-up of various medical specialties and sub-specialties. I can assure everyone that female physicians can make very high salaries and I can underscore that many specialties and subspecialties have female physicians far out-numbering male physicians (think Ob-Gyn and its subspecialties as just one example--but there are more). The first year out of training is tough on every physician, regardless of gender.
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peanut17
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by peanut17 »

Thank you all for your very insightful replies. I am blown away by the collective knowledge on this site - this is far more than I was expecting, but I am very grateful to you all. I am not certain the best way to reply to everyone without creating numerous posts. Hopefully this strategy works well enough!

Duckie: I had not at all considered the possibility of wash sales, so thank you for bringing this up. I will take your advice and replace VTSAX in my Roth with VOO. Currently I have a small regularly scheduled contribution being made to my taxable account for VTSAX. If I am slightly positive in my Roth account (relative to my VTSAX cost basis, I mean), I should be able to simply sell all VTSAX and then immediately purchase VOO; is that correct? I don't expect to use this Roth money at all until my retirement, so hopefully this is a reasonable strategy. All accounts are held at Vanguard so I don't think I am paying undue fees for the mutual funds. My comment that I will contribute 5% was only a statement of intent - this is a voluntary contribution (but one I fully intend to make each year).

Ram: Thanks for your comment re: housing prices. My current area is quite expensive - it seems like home ownership may need to wait many years. As for being on the wrong website, if you see HipCoyote's comment a bit below yours, perhaps this is the correct place to be!

OuterMarker & snowday: I agree, it is too early to purchase a home and this area may just be prohibitively expensive for me on a single income. It is hard for me to imagine but home prices are regularly >1000 dollars per square foot. For now, I don't mind renting.

Retired2017: Thank you for all the advice and in particular for the book suggestions - I will find them and focus on the taxes portion. I agree that the relationship with the support staff will be most important, especially as an early attending, and will be sure to try to build positive relationships. Thanks also for the information regarding Umbrella insurance - I had not considered that (honestly, had not even heard of it), but will spend some more time researching the topic.

Mhalley: Thanks for the links - I have read his book and looked through the website, but the second link is exactly the topic I needed and I hadn't seen it yet.

Investorpeter: Thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply, including figures. This is very helpful. Can you expand on point #6? Why does tax liability increase? Also, for what it's worth, in my first year I believe I can't max out the 66,000 limits (5% is 20,000 and another 22,500 to the 403b; as noted below, I'm not sure the retirement match counts toward this limit). I agree with your final points - it is easy to see how this money can be spent but I am so fortunate I do not intend to waste this position. The idea of early retirement hadn't even occurred to me - I'll need to develop some hobbies if it's something to consider!

TacoLover: Unfortunately from a financial perspective, living in California is extremely important to me as my immediate and extended family have all settled here. I do love it here though, so I think it's worth the financial trade-off (for me). Thanks also for the clarification re: life insurance; I had figured that was the case but it's nice to see that I was correct.

FIRWYW: Thanks for your reply. I am very grateful to my parents for having put me in this position. They have fortunately done quite well financially so I hope I haven't inconvenienced them too much - at the very least, they don't seem bitter!

Dogagility: I had strongly considered i-bonds, but think at this time I would be happy to have a more aggressive portfolio, so I'll likely stick with equities if that's a reasonable approach.

Whitecoatinvestor: First, I want to say thank you for your book. I have many friends and family members who have read it and have benefited greatly from your advice. I feel a little starstruck to have had you even read my post, let alone reply. Anyway, you are correct! I did a bit of digging and it seems the first account is a 401(a), which I have never heard of before. The website suggests that my total contribution to both accounts cannot exceed the IRS limit, but that the university's contribution is not included in this. Does that make sense? In that case, as long as my 5% contribution (roughly 20,000 dollars) and the 22,500 do not exceed 66,000, I should be OK? If that's true, I'd need to double my salary to come close to reaching this limit. I have a sizeable Roth account (in my opinion) at this point and don't anticipate withdrawing from it at any time before retirement, so hopefully that will continue to grow. In that case, it seems to me that it makes sense to contribute to the pre-tax accounts at this time.

Artsdoctor: Thanks for your reply. I don't anticipate making any large purchases in the coming year, so hopefully I will be able to stick to that! It seems weird to accept congratulations when I have been very fortunate to have been put in this position, but thank you. I do include my parents in these discussions but they have made their money using a very non-Boglehead philosophy which has led to a lot of variability (the highs are very high but the lows are very low). That's not exactly what I want for myself (though at times I can understand the appeal)!

A few other points:
- Multiple people mentioned an HSA. I do not know much about this account but will fund it and will learn - seems like everyone agrees it is a good thing to do!
- I was not being intentionally vague, but for what it's worth, I am male. I don't anticipate having children, but I know that would not be entirely my choice if I am to get married; however, I think it is an important conversation to have before marriage and it would hopefully be something my (future) wife and I agree on before taking that step.

Again, thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies. If you have any more thoughts, please do let me know!
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Duckie »

peanut17 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:27 pm I had not at all considered the possibility of wash sales, so thank you for bringing this up. I will take your advice and replace VTSAX in my Roth with VOO. Currently I have a small regularly scheduled contribution being made to my taxable account for VTSAX. If I am slightly positive in my Roth account (relative to my VTSAX cost basis, I mean), I should be able to simply sell all VTSAX and then immediately purchase VOO; is that correct?
Selling for a loss in your Roth IRA cannot trigger a wash sale, only selling for a loss in taxable. So as long as you haven't sold VTSAX in taxable in the last month and won't for another month (61-day window) you can sell in the Roth IRA with no concerns.
My comment that I will contribute 5% was only a statement of intent - this is a voluntary contribution (but one I fully intend to make each year).
If voluntary then it is part of one $66,000 limit. Since you have a 401a and a 403b you have two separate $66,000 limits.
I did a bit of digging and it seems the first account is a 401(a), which I have never heard of before. The website suggests that my total contribution to both accounts cannot exceed the IRS limit, but that the university's contribution is not included in this. Does that make sense? In that case, as long as my 5% contribution (roughly 20,000 dollars) and the 22,500 do not exceed 66,000, I should be OK?
Employer matching and/or profit sharing is included in the $66,000 limit. So your roughly 5% contributions to the 401a and the employER matching to the 401a cannot exceed $66,000. Plus you can make up to a $22,500 contribution as the employEE elective deferral (either pre-tax or Roth) to the 403b. See here.
Multiple people mentioned an HSA. I do not know much about this account but will fund it and will learn - seems like everyone agrees it is a good thing to do!
You can only have an HSA if your employer offers an HDHP (High Deductible Health Plan). Is that available to you?

In your case, the problem with an HSA is that in California (and New Jersey) an HSA is not treated as a tax-sheltered account. That means for state income tax purposes any dividends are state taxable and if you sell something for a gain that is state taxable. Many people in that position choose to use a treasury mutual fund like FUAMX or VSIGX in the HSA because treasuries are not state taxable and since the HSA is a federally tax-sheltered account the dividends are not federally taxable.
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by Artsdoctor »

^ An HSA-eligible plan will probably be offered through the hospital. They've become increasingly common and it's definitely worth learning about.

It's a disadvantage that California doesn't the tax-free nature of an HSA but it really shouldn't prevent someone who can use it as an investment account to do so. I opened my HSA when they first became available many, many years ago and invested the money aggressively at first--you do have to pay income tax on dividends and capital gains but you can also tax-loss harvest in the account (and California allows carryover losses). A few years ago I switched to treasuries in the account because that fit with my changing portfolio asset allocation--but the total taxes paid throughout those years of more aggressive investments were not that onerous.
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Re: New attending physician with a few questions

Post by White Coat Investor »

peanut17 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:27 pm

Whitecoatinvestor: First, I want to say thank you for your book. I have many friends and family members who have read it and have benefited greatly from your advice. I feel a little starstruck to have had you even read my post, let alone reply. Anyway, you are correct! I did a bit of digging and it seems the first account is a 401(a), which I have never heard of before. The website suggests that my total contribution to both accounts cannot exceed the IRS limit, but that the university's contribution is not included in this. Does that make sense? In that case, as long as my 5% contribution (roughly 20,000 dollars) and the 22,500 do not exceed 66,000, I should be OK? If that's true, I'd need to double my salary to come close to reaching this limit. I have a sizeable Roth account (in my opinion) at this point and don't anticipate withdrawing from it at any time before retirement, so hopefully that will continue to grow. In that case, it seems to me that it makes sense to contribute to the pre-tax accounts at this time.
No, that doesn't make sense. It is technically limited to $66K total including employer contributions. However, you should be aware that most people don't know this rule. That includes most:

1. HR/401(k) administrators
2. IRS auditors
3. Financial advisors

So if someone lets you put in more than $66K, you're very unlikely to get called on it by anyone.

Glad the book was helpful to you and others. My first book was recently revised. Lots of revisions including eliminating all the pronouns in it. All the pronouns in my first book were original masculine and all the pronouns in the second book were originally feminine. Got lots of complaints about that first one but this revision should eliminate them completely.
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy | 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
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