Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

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fposte
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Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

I'm hoping some veteran travelers here may have some solutions or workarounds on this.

I'm going to Scotland in August to visit a friend--we go back and forth to see each other every few years. I'll be coming from downstate Illinois. I would like to be on the Chicago-Edinburgh flight (United codesharing with Lufthansa), as it's the only direct flight to Scotland from Chicago and I'd like to avoid a change at Heathrow if possible. Glasgow is acceptable as well but there are no direct flights from ORD there.

My downstate airport only has American Eagle flights to ORD (and DFW). I could have sworn that interlining used to mean that you could book a routing with American on one leg and United on the next, but not only do the United and American websites refuse, Expedia and Kayak won't cough up this routing.

My choices would seem to be:

1) booking two separate tickets
2) booking a different routing
3) taking the multi-hour bus trip or multi-hour and several-leg train trip to ORD, and worse, from ORD upon my return
4) a solution that somebody else might know about but I don't

I don't think the risk of 1) is huge. While I'll have a checked bag, I'd need to claim it in ORD for Customs on the way back anyway, and it's pretty tough for a bag to get lost on a little American Eagle flight up. It'll cost more, and I'll need to be prepared to spend a lot of time at O'Hare, but that would be true even on a single ticket (advice on the interval to leave would be welcome, as this is my first international trip post-pandemic). Aside from cost and nominal responsibility, it's probably not much different from a single ticket. I've done 2) and will do it again if I have to. 3) I would like to avoid at all costs. But is there a 4), a way to magically book a single ticket for this routing that I haven't found a way to do?
Dave55
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Dave55 »

I have used a travel agent who in turn uses airline ticket consolidators for complicated routing's internationally. They can work "magic".

Dave
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jebmke
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by jebmke »

You don't state exactly where you are. One option might be to do a one-way car rental each way. I've done that in the past -- in my case I was able to pick up car locally.
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JoMoney
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by JoMoney »

You might look at flights.google.com pretty sure I've used that for booking a flight crossing different airlines.
You might need to find an actual travel agent you can talk to about booking the flight you want, I haven't seen them around much in the U.S. anymore, but when I was living in Australia I found a travel agency in a mall that was very helpful in booking an odd ticket I wanted with multiple hops and specific over-night layovers I wanted.

Be very leery of booking separate tickets, sometimes there's no way around it, but it can be a recipe for disaster if one of your flights is delayed, and the airline has no obligation to connect you to some other final destination.
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stan1
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by stan1 »

Several other choices I'd consider:
1) Rent a car and drive to Chicago, or drive your own car and park in long term parking. Stay an extra night near the Chicago airport as needed. I have a strong preference for non-stop flights these days, this is like what I would do.

2) It does not appear AA is flying from the US to Edinburgh this year, but United and Delta are. What are the closest airports to you that United and Delta regional flights operate from?

3) Fly to Heathrow and take the train from London to Edinburgh or Glasgow, it is a very enjoyable trip (day time or overnight). I might do this anyways if the flight to Edinburgh is too expensive. It is always fun to add in a few days in London, too.
Last edited by stan1 on Sun May 28, 2023 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
EnjoyIt
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by EnjoyIt »

jebmke wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:28 am You don't state exactly where you are. One option might be to do a one-way car rental each way. I've done that in the past -- in my case I was able to pick up car locally.
This is exactly how I would do it. I would gladly drive 3-4 hours as opposed to doing a lay over. In your more complicated case I would consider driving longer.
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LeftCoastIV
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by LeftCoastIV »

(1) seems like a doable answer. One downside is that if either of the flights has a time change that makes the layover infeasible, you could be stuck trying to make a schedule change without any consideration/help because it’s not on the same itinerary. So give yourself a layover buffer. I’d say 3 hours min, maybe four with the checked bag. With a checked bag, I assume you’ll need to exit and go through security again.
rbd789
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by rbd789 »

Not directly addressing the original question, but I suggest also looking at Aer Lingus for the international portion. They fly between ORD and EDI with a connection in Dublin. The 1 hour flight between Dublin and Scotland would likely be on a smaller plane. The great thing about it is clearing US customs and immigration in Dublin, on the way home. That makes the actual arrival in the US the same as any other domestic arrival. I've done this several times between Boston and the UK and I consider it a terrific perk.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by jebmke »

EnjoyIt wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:38 am
jebmke wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:28 am You don't state exactly where you are. One option might be to do a one-way car rental each way. I've done that in the past -- in my case I was able to pick up car locally.
This is exactly how I would do it. I would gladly drive 3-4 hours as opposed to doing a lay over. In your more complicated case I would consider driving longer.
When I lived in Milwaukee I did this all the time. Normally best flight was RT ORD to HKG but sometimes I'd get toward the end of a long trip and be able to wrap things early. Sometimes the best return was not back to ORD but something like Newark or JFK in which I would re-route and get a home leg directly into Milwaukee. A lot easier to just cancel the car rental at ORD than re-wire the whole thing.
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grilli
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by grilli »

American and United do have an interline agreement. It should be possible to book this route. You could try calling United and hope you get a competent agent who both knows how to do it and is willing to bother. Or you could try to find a good travel agency (not many of these are left). There might well be a fee.

This issue has very likely come up in the United or American Flyertalk forums. You could do a search there.
stan1
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by stan1 »

Also consider whether carry on only travel is possible. Sometimes we have to take extra items with us, but carry on only travel can be very liberating and it simplifies travel and makes it more enjoyable. My spouse won't do carry on only travel (insists on 3-5 pairs of shoes) but when I travel by myself I always do it for up to two weeks. The key is simple, basic outfits with interchangeable tops/bottoms that go with EITHER black or tan shoes. The shoes are the key to one bag travel, once you have the pair on your feet and one more pair packed you match your wardrobe to those two shoes. Not having the checked bag makes connections less risky. If you want to check it on the return if you don't mind if it is delayed that's an option too.
torso2500
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by torso2500 »

I agree it's worth it to find a way to drive to Chicago and have your first (only) flight be the international one. Particularly with a checked bag. How far are you from ORD? I've hired a town car for ~2 hour airport runs a couple times. Not super cheap but I prefer it to those ultra short regional flights.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

Thanks for the input so far! I take Xanax to fly so day of travel driving is inadvisable. I'm 2-3 hours from ORD and one hour from the nearest United served airport. I know that sometimes Uber drivers will take people, but obviously there are no guarantees, and limo rental is over $700 round trip--twice what the round trip flight between Chicago and downstate. I'll be staying a couple of weeks so carryon only, especially international-sized carryon, isn't going to work for me. I'd like to avoid staying overnight at a hotel along the way if possible--the underlying goal is to minimize the time where I'm neither at my friend's house or mine.

Flying out of my small airport always has an element of gamble, tbh; there's little in the way of alternative routings if there's an issue, so I usually avoid the last flight of the day if I can. I like the possibility of a Dublin connection instead of a Heathrow one if I can make that work. There is a local travel agent that the university always works with and I might want to use them for more elaborate travel in future, so this might be a good place to start with them; obviously can't contact them until Tuesday.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by GreendaleCC »

fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:21 am I don't think the risk of 1) is huge. While I'll have a checked bag, I'd need to claim it in ORD for Customs on the way back anyway, and it's pretty tough for a bag to get lost on a little American Eagle flight up.
My dad once flew to Europe, starting with a flight on a commuter jet from our small city to NYC. When he got to his destination, his bag wasn’t there. They never put it on the aircraft in our hometown.
safari
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by safari »

Take a look at https://www.alternativeairlines.com/con ... ne-tickets. That site lets you book connections with different airlines. I never used them personally, so can't vouch for them.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by dukeblue219 »

GreendaleCC wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:36 am
fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:21 am I don't think the risk of 1) is huge. While I'll have a checked bag, I'd need to claim it in ORD for Customs on the way back anyway, and it's pretty tough for a bag to get lost on a little American Eagle flight up.
My dad once flew to Europe, starting with a flight on a commuter jet from our small city to NYC. When he got to his destination, his bag wasn’t there. They never put it on the aircraft in our hometown.
You can track your bags with your airline's app. Most if not all major airlines offer this, so you can see before you even depart if the bag is scanned onboard. If not, chat with CS while airborne and have them check on the routing of your bag.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but I don't worry about lost luggage anymore. With rather circumstantial exceptions (winter storms, airline computer crises) bags don't mysteriously vanish at a concerning rate.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by bob60014 »

Downstate Illinois is anything outside the 6 county metro Chicago area. Where are you located? It may help in finding other routings.
HawkeyePierce
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

Just because two airlines have an interline ticketing agreement doesn’t mean combining them will be in any way cost effective. Likely the only qualifying fare buckets are full-fare which will be very very expensive.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

GreendaleCC wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:36 am
fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:21 am I don't think the risk of 1) is huge. While I'll have a checked bag, I'd need to claim it in ORD for Customs on the way back anyway, and it's pretty tough for a bag to get lost on a little American Eagle flight up.
My dad once flew to Europe, starting with a flight on a commuter jet from our small city to NYC. When he got to his destination, his bag wasn’t there. They never put it on the aircraft in our hometown.
Right, but that's not because he flew on two tickets; if anything, I'm safer for having to collect the checked bag from the first flight.
bob60014 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:11 am Downstate Illinois is anything outside the 6 county metro Chicago area. Where are you located? It may help in finding other routings.
I doubt it. It's CMI, so there are flights to DFW, which has no flights to Scotland, and there are flights to ORD, which does.
HawkeyePierce wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:18 am Just because two airlines have an interline ticketing agreement doesn’t mean combining them will be in any way cost effective. Likely the only qualifying fare buckets are full-fare which will be very very expensive.
I wouldn't mind paying a slightly higher price, but the alternativeairlines.com site did offer me the one-stop CMI-EDI routing for a mere $6000 round trip. So yikes, you may be right that it'll be a huge jump to do this.
Last edited by fposte on Sun May 28, 2023 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Valuethinker »

stan1 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:34 am
3) Fly to Heathrow and take the train from London to Edinburgh or Glasgow, it is a very enjoyable trip (day time or overnight). I might do this anyways if the flight to Edinburgh is too expensive. It is always fun to add in a few days in London, too.
If one can, I would advise against this:

- you have to get from Heathrow to Kings Cross station. OK the Piccadilly Line will take you straight, but you still have to schlep your bags up and down stairs in a busy Tube station. And we have Tube strikes. And delays.

- train strikes are a real issue-- rotating. I wouldn't count on that East Coast line being working. Also trains have become so unreliable of late. This would be summer, when it is heavily used. I agree, btw, that once you get past York it really is spectacular especially along the coast near Newcastle - if you are in the daytime.

- I would absolutely avoid the West Coast Main Line (to Glasgow) if at all possible. From getting on at Euston, overcrowding, delays. It really is not worth the candle.

Flying Heathrow to Edinburgh won't be any more expensive than taking the train. And possibly quite a bit cheaper. As long as I didn't have to change terminals at Heathrow (and even if I did) I'd change planes there. Of course the Border Control queues can be pretty fierce, so I'd leave a lot of time to make the change (like several hours).

(If one does decide on the train, I would investigate upgrading to First Class - it really is worth the much nicer trip).
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun May 28, 2023 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dottie57
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Dottie57 »

Personally, I would use the travel agent option. It’s their job.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:29 am
stan1 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:34 am
3) Fly to Heathrow and take the train from London to Edinburgh or Glasgow, it is a very enjoyable trip (day time or overnight). I might do this anyways if the flight to Edinburgh is too expensive. It is always fun to add in a few days in London, too.
If one can, I would advise against this:

- you have to get from Heathrow to Kings Cross station. OK the Piccadilly Line will take you straight, but you still have to schlep your bags up and down stairs in a busy Tube station. And we have Tube strikes. And delays.

- train strikes are a real issue-- rotating. I wouldn't count on that East Coast line being working. Also trains have become so unreliable of late. This would be summer, when it is heavily used. I agree, btw, that once you get past York it really is spectacular especially along the coast near Newcastle - if you are in the daytime.
Obviously this was a long time ago, but the last time I did this it was a memorable omnishambles. It was the Sunday that Princess Diana died, so already memorable; the train was stopped by leaves on the tracks (I don't know why British trains always seem so thrown by the presence of leaves) but since it was Sunday instructions for the driver weren't forthcoming for hours, and gradually they decided to reverse back to Doncaster and put us all on coaches, then back on the train at Stevenage. This was during the Fringe so several packed trains were all decanted into the one with people standing the whole way or sitting on the floor and we finally got into King's Cross at 2 am, with no way to go anywhere 2 am on Sunday but cabs or walking, so it took another hour to get a cab. Ironically, I had paid for the cheap upgrade to first class, but it was a moot point once the leaves appeared.

My actual destination in Scotland is outside of Dundee, so if I were going to do this I'd just fly London City to Dundee.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by pizzy »

fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:25 am Thanks for the input so far! I take Xanax to fly so day of travel driving is inadvisable. I'm 2-3 hours from ORD and one hour from the nearest United served airport. I know that sometimes Uber drivers will take people, but obviously there are no guarantees, and limo rental is over $700 round trip--twice what the round trip flight between Chicago and downstate. I'll be staying a couple of weeks so carryon only, especially international-sized carryon, isn't going to work for me. I'd like to avoid staying overnight at a hotel along the way if possible--the underlying goal is to minimize the time where I'm neither at my friend's house or mine.

Flying out of my small airport always has an element of gamble, tbh; there's little in the way of alternative routings if there's an issue, so I usually avoid the last flight of the day if I can. I like the possibility of a Dublin connection instead of a Heathrow one if I can make that work. There is a local travel agent that the university always works with and I might want to use them for more elaborate travel in future, so this might be a good place to start with them; obviously can't contact them until Tuesday.
Isn’t the flight to Scotland a red eye? I’m not following how Xanax for an overnight flight would interfere with driving during the day 2-3 hours and parking your car in long term parking. Won’t you have the same issue when you return if you don’t drive?

Also, no one in your life that would give you a ride?
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grilli
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by grilli »

Personally, I would use the travel agent option. It’s their job.

+1
There are still routes that cannot be purchased online, but which can be purchased by a travel agent (or in many cases by an airline representative if they can be bothered). If you want the route outlined in the OP, pursue that.
bob60014
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by bob60014 »

Drive to STL, take Delta to ATL then on to EDI. $780 rt +/- , economy.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:39 am Isn’t the flight to Scotland a red eye? I’m not following how Xanax for an overnight flight would interfere with driving during the day 2-3 hours and parking your car in long term parking. Won’t you have the same issue when you return if you don’t drive?
First dose is the night before, second the morning of the flight. And yes, the same problem would exist both ways.
Also, no one in your life that would give you a ride?
Not that lives near me and could do a five to six hour round trip, no.
bob60014 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:51 am Drive to STL, take Delta to ATL then on to EDI. $780 rt +/- , economy.
That's out of the frying pan and into the fire as far as number and difficulty of legs go.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by pizzy »

fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:05 pm
pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:39 am Isn’t the flight to Scotland a red eye? I’m not following how Xanax for an overnight flight would interfere with driving during the day 2-3 hours and parking your car in long term parking. Won’t you have the same issue when you return if you don’t drive?
First dose is the night before, second the morning of the flight. And yes, the same problem would exist both ways.
Also, no one in your life that would give you a ride?
Not that lives near me and could do a five to six hour round trip, no.
bob60014 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 11:51 am Drive to STL, take Delta to ATL then on to EDI. $780 rt +/- , economy.
That's out of the frying pan and into the fire as far as number and difficulty of legs go.
So whenever you fly, you can’t drive for 24 hours prior? You should talk to the doc about adjusting the dosing timeframe.
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djheini
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by djheini »

rbd789 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:42 am Not directly addressing the original question, but I suggest also looking at Aer Lingus for the international portion. They fly between ORD and EDI with a connection in Dublin. The 1 hour flight between Dublin and Scotland would likely be on a smaller plane. The great thing about it is clearing US customs and immigration in Dublin, on the way home. That makes the actual arrival in the US the same as any other domestic arrival. I've done this several times between Boston and the UK and I consider it a terrific perk.
Unless you're a traveller who is anxious about delays/processes, I actually find this a downside. Especially with Global Entry, I'm usually through immigration in 15 minutes max, whether landing in the US or doing preclearance. This makes the 3+ hour minimum connection time in Dublin when doing preclearance to the US frustratingly long.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:08 pm
So whenever you fly, you can’t drive for 24 hours prior? You should talk to the doc about adjusting the dosing timeframe.
Dosing timeframe is up to me. It starts the night before the flight. I could fudge a short trip in the morning but not a drive up to O'Hare or out to St. Louis. It may not be ideal but it's worked for me for @40 years.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by pizzy »

fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:17 pm
pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:08 pm
So whenever you fly, you can’t drive for 24 hours prior? You should talk to the doc about adjusting the dosing timeframe.
Dosing timeframe is up to me. It starts the night before the flight. I could fudge a short trip in the morning but not a drive up to O'Hare or out to St. Louis. It may not be ideal but it's worked for me for @40 years.
If unwilling to be flexible with the medication, you may want to work on your flexibility (both financially and travel options) if you travel solo and don’t have friends/family support to help with rides.

The Xanax seems to be the hindrance in this case.
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Topic Author
fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:19 pm
fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:17 pm
pizzy wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:08 pm
So whenever you fly, you can’t drive for 24 hours prior? You should talk to the doc about adjusting the dosing timeframe.
Dosing timeframe is up to me. It starts the night before the flight. I could fudge a short trip in the morning but not a drive up to O'Hare or out to St. Louis. It may not be ideal but it's worked for me for @40 years.
If unwilling to be flexible with the medication, you may want to work on your flexibility (both financially and travel options) if you travel solo and don’t have friends/family support to help with rides.

The Xanax seems to be the hindrance in this case.
I think you're seeing a problem where none exists. I'm asking if people know a way to get this particular routing. If the answer is "You can't," I'll go another way, and have indeed identified several of those different ways. Even without Xanax, it's suboptimal to have a 2-3 hour drive at the end of an international flight.
Gradient Descent
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Gradient Descent »

You definitely don’t want to book connecting flights on different itineraries.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by dukeblue219 »

If you book the flights separately, add an overnight stay in ORD on the way out. Relax for a night at the hotel onsite and catch your non-stop international departure in the morning.
torso2500
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by torso2500 »

I would either:

Book a United ticket starting at the 1 hour away airport, connecting at ORD, and hire an airport ride.
Take the separate ticket regional flight 1 day before and stay overnight at ORD

wouldn't hurt to consult with a travel agent but personally I don't like not booking directly
pizzy
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by pizzy »

dukeblue219 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:40 pm If you book the flights separately, add an overnight stay in ORD on the way out. Relax for a night at the hotel onsite and catch your non-stop international departure in the morning.
Direct flights to Europe are very rarely in the morning.
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ScubaHogg
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by ScubaHogg »

You’ve got the answer you need. Get a travel agent to book the itinerary you want
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ILnative
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by ILnative »

How about Amtrak - I put in Champaign to Chicago on a random Friday in August and there is a train that leaves at 6:00 am and gets to Union Station at 9:15 am. Plenty of time to transfer to Ohare via cab, Lyft or public transport. And you avoid a flight (if that is what gives you anxiety).
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

ILnative wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 1:17 pm How about Amtrak - I put in Champaign to Chicago on a random Friday in August and there is a train that leaves at 6:00 am and gets to Union Station at 9:15 am. Plenty of time to transfer to Ohare via cab, Lyft or public transport. And you avoid a flight (if that is what gives you anxiety).
Looks like you're a neighbor! That's on the possible list too and I've done it before (I have not fond memories of riding the Blue Line at about 5 am). I'm fine with doing the two flights, but from experience if I'm doing three I'd rather not have Heathrow be pivotal in there, especially during what looks to be a testy summer, labor-wise.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Consider figuring out how to do carry on only. I've done 2 weeks in Hong Kong, a week in Vienna, 3 weeks in Aruba and worked by flying to a region for decades with nothing more than a carry on. Included was that back in the day, I wore a suit and tie and had to bring my laptop and charger. Every Single Hotel I have ever stayed in (thousands of nights in total) had laundry. Pop laundry in and get work done or make phone calls or grab an easy dinner. Back and into the dryer. I have never brought more than 3 days worth of clothes and the shoes I have on are the always shoes. All black leather sneakers, by the way. I have never lost luggage because, well, it's usually under the seat in front of me on the plane or with a real puddle jumper where I can see the runway by simply looking forward through the cockpit, it's in the luggage area under me.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Outer Marker »

I'd either go to the United-served one hour distant airport, or do the 2-stop via LHR on AA/BA. Buying separate tickets adds measurably to the cost and potential travel disruption with little recourse and protection. Don't bother with a travel agent. They have no more information than you do, and Kayak is better than agents in putting together "hacker" fares and mulit-carrier itineraries. You'll just pay a healthy booking fee for nothing.
talzara
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by talzara »

JoMoney wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:32 am You might look at flights.google.com pretty sure I've used that for booking a flight crossing different airlines.
Google Flights can't find anything. Even ITA Matrix can't find anything except the $6,500 full fare CMI-ORD-EDI ticket.

There is a flight restriction somewhere that is blocking interline connections, except on the full fare ticket sold by Lufthansa. That ticket probably should also be restricted, but someone at Lufthansa made a mistake. The United flight is restricted.

United, Lufthansa, and Air Canada are members of the A++ transatlantic alliance, which functions as a single airline for the purposes of accounting and antitrust law. The revenues are shared, the expenses are shared, and the profits of the virtual airline are divided according to a formula. It should not be possible to find a Lufthansa ticket without finding an identical United ticket at the same price. However, sometimes one of the airlines makes a mistake when it publishes fares.
talzara
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by talzara »

Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 pm I'd either go to the United-served one hour distant airport, or do the 2-stop via LHR on AA/BA. Buying separate tickets adds measurably to the cost and potential travel disruption with little recourse and protection. Don't bother with a travel agent. They have no more information than you do, and Kayak is better than agents in putting together "hacker" fares and mulit-carrier itineraries. You'll just pay a healthy booking fee for nothing.
None of the OTAs can find a single ticket itinerary, except the $6,500 full fare itinerary. That's why people are suggesting a travel agent. They don't have any more information than you do, so it won't come up in a search. However, they have GDS access, so they can construct an interline itinerary manually and see if the GDS will let them book it.

If a travel agent can't book it on one ticket either, then you can be sure that the itinerary is impossible. That's when you have to buy separate tickets and self-connect, do a ground transfer to ORD, or look for a different routing.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Outer Marker »

talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:44 pm United, Lufthansa, and Air Canada are members of the A++ transatlantic alliance, which functions as a single airline for the purposes of accounting and antitrust law. The revenues are shared, the expenses are shared, and the profits of the virtual airline are divided according to a formula. It should not be possible to find a Lufthansa ticket without finding an identical United ticket at the same price. However, sometimes one of the airlines makes a mistake when it publishes fares.
Well, not to hijack the thread, but the selling price for the same itinerary frequently varies by marketing carrier in the alliance, depending on point of sale strength, FFP MQM points, etc. It's intentional, not a mistake.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Outer Marker »

talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:49 pm
Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 pm I'd either go to the United-served one hour distant airport, or do the 2-stop via LHR on AA/BA. Buying separate tickets adds measurably to the cost and potential travel disruption with little recourse and protection. Don't bother with a travel agent. They have no more information than you do, and Kayak is better than agents in putting together "hacker" fares and mulit-carrier itineraries. You'll just pay a healthy booking fee for nothing.
None of the OTAs can find a single ticket itinerary, except the $6,500 full fare itinerary. That's why people are suggesting a travel agent. They don't have any more information than you do, so it won't come up in a search. However, they have GDS access, so they can construct an interline itinerary manually and see if the GDS will let them book it.
An agent is going to come up with the same $6,500 fare. That's what's bookable. You can call and ask, but I'll bet you $100 that's the result. Kayak and Google search are much better at putting together unconventional itineraries than agents - but you're at risk for missed connections, etc.
talzara
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by talzara »

Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:53 pm
talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:44 pm United, Lufthansa, and Air Canada are members of the A++ transatlantic alliance, which functions as a single airline for the purposes of accounting and antitrust law. The revenues are shared, the expenses are shared, and the profits of the virtual airline are divided according to a formula. It should not be possible to find a Lufthansa ticket without finding an identical United ticket at the same price. However, sometimes one of the airlines makes a mistake when it publishes fares.
Well, not to hijack the thread, but the selling price for the same itinerary frequently varies by marketing carrier in the alliance, depending on point of sale strength, FFP MQM points, etc. It's intentional, not a mistake.
If everything is identical except the marketing carrier, then the tickets are the same price.

Point of sale and frequent flyer are different issues. United can't easily market to people in the Lufthansa Miles and More program, so Lufthansa does it for them. If it has to offer a lower price to do it, then United agrees to it as part of its participation in the joint venture.
Last edited by talzara on Sun May 28, 2023 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fposte
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:49 pm None of the OTAs can find a single ticket itinerary, except the $6,500 full fare itinerary. That's why people are suggesting a travel agent. They don't have any more information than you do, so it won't come up in a search. However, they have GDS access, so they can construct an interline itinerary manually and see if the GDS will let them book it.

If a travel agent can't book it on one ticket either, then you can be sure that the itinerary is impossible. That's when you have to buy separate tickets and self-connect, do a ground transfer to ORD, or look for a different routing.
I am oddly gratified to at least find I searched adequately. I've had to do separate tickets before when flying internationally, so it's not unprecedented, but that was a more complicated routing and this one seemed simple on the face of it.

There's a new wrinkle in that apparently the London to Dundee flight that used to go from London City is now flying out of Heathrow, so while I'd still prefer the ORD-EDI flight if it were normally bookable, Dundee is so much closer to my destination at that end it compensates for much of the Heathrow annoyance. I'll talk to the travel agent Tuesday and mess with dates to see if I can find what CMI-DND itinerary has the most reasonable layovers at ORD and LHR.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Outer Marker »

talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:18 pm
Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:53 pm
talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:44 pm United, Lufthansa, and Air Canada are members of the A++ transatlantic alliance, which functions as a single airline for the purposes of accounting and antitrust law. The revenues are shared, the expenses are shared, and the profits of the virtual airline are divided according to a formula. It should not be possible to find a Lufthansa ticket without finding an identical United ticket at the same price. However, sometimes one of the airlines makes a mistake when it publishes fares.
Well, not to hijack the thread, but the selling price for the same itinerary frequently varies by marketing carrier in the alliance, depending on point of sale strength, FFP MQM points, etc. It's intentional, not a mistake.
If everything is identical except the marketing carrier, then the tickets are the same price.

Point of sale and frequent flyer are different issues. United can't easily market to people in the Lufthansa Miles and More program, so Lufthansa does it for them. If it has to offer a lower price to do it, then United agrees to it as part of its participation in the joint venture.
That's incorrect. For example, looking at a random day in June, nonstop biz on ATL-ICN is $5,600 on DL and $5,300 on KE "operated by DL". It's the same flight. If you're a Delta Medallion, you'll pay the extra for a variety of reasons. The reverse would be true out of SEL. Ex-US pricing is handled by DL. Ex-Asia is handled by KE. One team sets the price by country point of sale, regardless of whose metal it is. The idea is to maximize revenue for the JV and take advantage of each carrier's brand strength in country - then pool and share the resulting profits.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by Outer Marker »

fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:32 pm There's a new wrinkle in that apparently the London to Dundee flight that used to go from London City is now flying out of Heathrow, so while I'd still prefer the ORD-EDI flight if it were normally bookable, Dundee is so much closer to my destination at that end it compensates for much of the Heathrow annoyance. I'll talk to the travel agent Tuesday and mess with dates to see if I can find what CMI-DND itinerary has the most reasonable layovers at ORD and LHR.
Good call! Have a great trip.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:01 pm
talzara wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:49 pm
Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 2:40 pm I'd either go to the United-served one hour distant airport, or do the 2-stop via LHR on AA/BA. Buying separate tickets adds measurably to the cost and potential travel disruption with little recourse and protection. Don't bother with a travel agent. They have no more information than you do, and Kayak is better than agents in putting together "hacker" fares and mulit-carrier itineraries. You'll just pay a healthy booking fee for nothing.
None of the OTAs can find a single ticket itinerary, except the $6,500 full fare itinerary. That's why people are suggesting a travel agent. They don't have any more information than you do, so it won't come up in a search. However, they have GDS access, so they can construct an interline itinerary manually and see if the GDS will let them book it.
An agent is going to come up with the same $6,500 fare. That's what's bookable. You can call and ask, but I'll bet you $100 that's the result. Kayak and Google search are much better at putting together unconventional itineraries than agents - but you're at risk for missed connections, etc.
Yeah, an agent isn't going to help if you need this particular routing. Combining unfriendly airlines generally requires Y fares, which are full fare unrestricted coach tickets. Every other fare bucket is generally going to be restricted to the operating airline or their partners. A travel agent can only book what's allowed by the fare rules, which for this discount coach fare specifically exclude combinations outside of United's transatlantic partners.

Pulling up the fare rules for the cheapest ORD-EDI round trip on United for arbitrary dates in August, I get S fares. Those have the following restriction:
COMBINABILITY

ORIGINATING AREA 1 -
IF THE FARE COMPONENT INCLUDES TRAVEL WITHIN AREA 1
THEN THAT TRAVEL MUST BE ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY UA
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY AC FLIGHT OPERATED BY QK
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY QK.
AND
THE FARE COMPONENT MUST INCLUDE TRAVEL VIA TRANSATLANTIC
SECTORS ON
ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY UA
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY AC
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY LH
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY LX
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY OS
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY SN
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY CL
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY LZ
ANY UA FLIGHT OPERATED BY 4Y.
(IATA Area 1 is North America)

Lufthansa will happily sell you an unrestricted Y fare with this rule instead:
COMBINABILITY

FARES MAY BE COMBINED ON A HALF ROUND TRIP BASIS WITH ANY
FARE FOR ANY CARRIER IN ANY RULE AND TARIFF TO FORM ROUND
TRIPS/CIRCLE TRIPS.
But you'll pay for it.
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Re: Airline ticket for strangely impossible routing?

Post by fposte »

Outer Marker wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:41 pm
fposte wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:32 pm There's a new wrinkle in that apparently the London to Dundee flight that used to go from London City is now flying out of Heathrow, so while I'd still prefer the ORD-EDI flight if it were normally bookable, Dundee is so much closer to my destination at that end it compensates for much of the Heathrow annoyance. I'll talk to the travel agent Tuesday and mess with dates to see if I can find what CMI-DND itinerary has the most reasonable layovers at ORD and LHR.
Good call! Have a great trip.
Thanks! And thanks, everybody, for the discussion--as usual on Bogleheads, I learned a lot.
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