Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

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TacoLover
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

riverant wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:50 am
3PKWzh9 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 11:46 pm
bombcar wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:33 pm…there's substantial evidence that driver speed is almost entirely based on lane width and apparent visibility. See https://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/Engineering ... -Diets.pdf

You can imitate this by parking large vehicles on the street, but it can be professionally done in various ways.
So in other words, driver speed is almost entirely dependent on the driver’s rational assessment of the conditions? That checks out to me.

OP, have you considered the possibility that your desire to control others is immoral and incorrect? From what you describe, substantially everyone “speeding” on your street lives directly in your neighborhood in the collection of cul de sacs. They are your neighbors. Do they all want to die? I’d guess not. What makes you think your assessment of “maximum safety” is superior to their evident assessment of “good safety, plus the bonus of getting home on time?”

Note that in many states, it is illegal for the sheriff to set speed limits arbitrarily. The speed limit must be a mathematical derivative of the actual speeds driven by drivers on that street. This is a rational, liberty-respecting principal that prevents the government gaining an ability to abuse power by creating “everyone is a criminal” conditions.

It sounds to me like the speed limit on your street needs to be 35 or 45. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that a street was mischaracterized by traffic planners.
So residential speed limits are the average of everyone driving at whatever speed they want? And if set otherwise, that’s the result of the government’s communist overreach? Okay…got it

OP - if your street is enormously wide, just lobby for a median with planters. No one in a neighborhood wants a “calming” sign. In the meantime, put one there yourself.

However, the examples of incidents you listed don’t appear to be a result of speed. They appear to be a result of terrible neighbors, which I worry will spill over and create a terrible community.
Yes agree. Going 35 in a 25 zone where the street is particularly wide and straight doesn’t seem dangerous. It’s the guy zooming past the school bus with flashers on while an 8 year old exits the bus. In my neighborhood it’s like his. Wide straight streets. 25 feels very slow. As long as you’re not on your phone and practicing defensive driving 30 seems appropriate and as fast as 35 appropriate.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Doom&Gloom »

I would be howling if a lot of these suggestions ended up being installed right in front of my home. Some would be more obnoxious than others obviously.
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Beensabu
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Nothing much to be done about people being jerks, other than avoid coming into personal contact with them by any means.

I still don't let my kid cross the street alone (or go anywhere alone unsupervised). We drop off and pick up. Kid rode the bus home one year, but the stop was in front of a really mean lady's house, and she absolutely hates us (and pretty much everyone else with even a spark of joy in their heart). Enough parents and grandparents who picked up their kids from the stop expressed concerns that they actually moved that bus stop to the side of the highway, because that is apparently a safer place for children to be dropped off than in front of this lady's house.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by cubs1999 »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm

When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Yeah, reducing the speed limit doesn't sound like it would change the action of the jerks like the school bus incident.

This was an issue on a certain street in my area bout 20 years ago. It's still one of the only streets in the area that have some sort of speed hump. Apparently, there was a cop that lived on this street with children and he was able to first get there to a be a no right turn into the street. The first day this sign appeared, they were pulling over everyone (it's a right turn from another residential street and there were several streets that one could turn on. This was the first and only one to have this sign. The police just issued warning but I think enough people complained that this sign was gone within a week. The speed bumps came at same time and have remained but they turned into more a of a "hump" which is less annoying. Years later, the speed humps are still there are this street in the only one in the immediate are that has speed bumps so you can tell that officer was likely the reason this street was able to get these measures.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

Again, appreciate all the opinions and perspective here. I have plenty of notes. Most ideas are probably unrealistic, some due to the nature of our actual neighborhood and others because the local government will simply not go that route. But I'll let them pitch what they're willing and unwilling to do.

For now it's a waiting game while they continue to collect data discreetly with the (visibly turned off) speed collection boxes. I don't know how long they plan on collecting baseline data, but they've told me they'll be in touch. Hopefully this thread won't eventually get locked - I'll be happy to post the next steps and eventual outcome as things play out if the thread stays open.

Finally, I found this old news clip on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D23qcUPccDc ... it's not our neighborhood (not even the same metro area), but that street is a close replica of our street (though our street is not nearly as wide). If nothing else, though, that clip gives folks a rough idea what type of residential street I'm talking about.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by caffeperfavore »

Bogle7 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:56 pm Look to Europe
Specifically, the Netherlands.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

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[deleted - duplicate]
Yuen
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Yuen »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:29 pm Yes agree. Going 35 in a 25 zone where the street is particularly wide and straight doesn’t seem dangerous. It’s the guy zooming past the school bus with flashers on while an 8 year old exits the bus. In my neighborhood it’s like his. Wide straight streets. 25 feels very slow. As long as you’re not on your phone and practicing defensive driving 30 seems appropriate and as fast as 35 appropriate.
Your chance of a severe injury being a pedestrian in a traffic crash increases to 50% at 35MPH from almost 25% at 25MPH. The risk of death is "only" 10% at 25MPH vs 25% at 35MPH: https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed- ... ury-death/

Speed kills. Going 35 in a 25 is just as serious.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by mgensler »

Hi,

Our foundation focuses on transportation issues, specifically safety of the most vulnerable road users.

In the US, most speed limits are set at what 85% of drivers feel comfortable driving. This prioritizes speed over safety. Traffic engineers in the US use Ashto book which is from the 1950s. Check out NACTO which is new and not widely adopted. It prioritizes safety.

We're happy to help analyze the data from the radar boxes. Usually the out of the box reports will have some type of default setting where drivers going 10 or 15 over won't be counted as speeding. We typically see 50-70% of drivers exceeding the speed limit.

Others have given you great suggestions. Changing the physical characteristics of the road way is the only real long term solution. If you rally enough of your neighbors to pressure elected officials, you might have a shot at making positive change.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

Yuen wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 7:46 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:29 pm Yes agree. Going 35 in a 25 zone where the street is particularly wide and straight doesn’t seem dangerous. It’s the guy zooming past the school bus with flashers on while an 8 year old exits the bus. In my neighborhood it’s like his. Wide straight streets. 25 feels very slow. As long as you’re not on your phone and practicing defensive driving 30 seems appropriate and as fast as 35 appropriate.
Your chance of a severe injury being a pedestrian in a traffic crash increases to 50% at 35MPH from almost 25% at 25MPH. The risk of death is "only" 10% at 25MPH vs 25% at 35MPH: https://aaafoundation.org/impact-speed- ... ury-death/

Speed kills. Going 35 in a 25 is just as serious.
Honestly it’s simply physics. KE=1/2mv^2. It all comes down to velocity. If you get hit by a massive object like a car, there’s going to be serious damage. If you get hit by one going faster, you will have more serious damage. The trick is not to get hit. 30 or 35 miles an hour on a wide street on a straight away Really isn’t going so fast. Where I live there is a wide road getting off the expressway to the community that is 45 mph. Then you make a turn and there’s another wide road at 35 and that transitions, just as wide, to 25 in the neighborhood. The 45 is a big road and honestly feels perfectly comfortable Going 55. The 35 is also wide but 45 feels a little too fast on that one. The 25 in the neighborhood feels inappropriate slow. 30 feels more appropriate and even 35 feels comfortable. the solution is look both ways before you cross the street and don’t cross if you see a car coming. As long as the car does not jump the curb looking both ways before you cross so it’s all these problems.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

cubs1999 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:19 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm

When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Yeah, reducing the speed limit doesn't sound like it would change the action of the jerks like the school bus incident.

This was an issue on a certain street in my area bout 20 years ago. It's still one of the only streets in the area that have some sort of speed hump. Apparently, there was a cop that lived on this street with children and he was able to first get there to a be a no right turn into the street. The first day this sign appeared, they were pulling over everyone (it's a right turn from another residential street and there were several streets that one could turn on. This was the first and only one to have this sign. The police just issued warning but I think enough people complained that this sign was gone within a week. The speed bumps came at same time and have remained but they turned into more a of a "hump" which is less annoying. Years later, the speed humps are still there are this street in the only one in the immediate are that has speed bumps so you can tell that officer was likely the reason this street was able to get these measures.
It sounds like there are one or two scofflaws, but for the most part people are just driving a little bit above the limit, and the author doesn’t like it. There was one comment about so many cars that were driving past, but that’s not a speed limit issue. It’s just the route the drivers go. And the dangerous incidents cited all seem to be more legitimately reckless drivers as compared to people that are going five or 10 over.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:09 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Nothing much to be done about people being jerks, other than avoid coming into personal contact with them by any means.

I still don't let my kid cross the street alone (or go anywhere alone unsupervised). We drop off and pick up. Kid rode the bus home one year, but the stop was in front of a really mean lady's house, and she absolutely hates us (and pretty much everyone else with even a spark of joy in their heart). Enough parents and grandparents who picked up their kids from the stop expressed concerns that they actually moved that bus stop to the side of the highway, because that is apparently a safer place for children to be dropped off than in front of this lady's house.
That’s funny. Exactly. The same thing happened to my kids. Except the person who lived at the home was believed to be psychotic and on medication’s. So they moved the stop. I do find, however, that parents nowadays in the suburbs and in the cities at least do not allow enough freedom for the kids to make mistakes. Kids nowadays are a lot less independent as compared to when I was growing up. They are not used to making decisions for themselves and discovering what the consequences of those decisions are. I interact with a lot of kids through work, and it is a bit horrifying. They don’t hop on the bike and meet at the park or meet at the friends houses. The parents arrange everything for them. Play dates. Study dates. Drop off and pick up. No independence at all. I don’t think there has ever been a generation like this in the past.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:09 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Nothing much to be done about people being jerks, other than avoid coming into personal contact with them by any means.

I still don't let my kid cross the street alone (or go anywhere alone unsupervised). We drop off and pick up. Kid rode the bus home one year, but the stop was in front of a really mean lady's house, and she absolutely hates us (and pretty much everyone else with even a spark of joy in their heart). Enough parents and grandparents who picked up their kids from the stop expressed concerns that they actually moved that bus stop to the side of the highway, because that is apparently a safer place for children to be dropped off than in front of this lady's house.
That’s funny. Exactly. The same thing happened to my kids. Except the person who lived at the home was believed to be psychotic and on medication’s. So they moved the stop.
Omg. Are you my neighbor? Does crazy lady's name start with a J?
I do find, however, that parents nowadays in the suburbs and in the cities at least do not allow enough freedom for the kids to make mistakes. Kids nowadays are a lot less independent as compared to when I was growing up. They are not used to making decisions for themselves and discovering what the consequences of those decisions are. I interact with a lot of kids through work, and it is a bit horrifying. They don’t hop on the bike and meet at the park or meet at the friends houses. The parents arrange everything for them. Play dates. Study dates. Drop off and pick up. No independence at all. I don’t think there has ever been a generation like this in the past.
Yeah. It's definitely different. I was awkward and naïve but I still roamed the neighborhood alongside other kids. I just don't feel comfortable allowing her the same freedom. It's a different type of neighborhood. There's more opportunity to range into places where nobody really is, but perhaps might be. And there's less kid-connect. Everyone is on guard. School and school organized events/programs or family/friends is the connect these days, not the neighborhood. And following up on the friendships your child makes at school by making an effort to reach out / respond to parents of their friends.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by chazas »

I hate street “calming” measures with a passion.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Metsfan91 »

Speed bumps. Every 300 feet. Works in my area. Will work in your area as well. Little bit of hassle for non-speeders'. There is just a quarter of a mile to deal with.
Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm The county engineer has told me that the driveways are mostly too close together to install "speed humps" on our street.
Poor excuse! speed humps are not needed to be installed in front of every driveway. So, these won't affect most driveways.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by chazas »

Metsfan91 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:41 pm Speed bumps. Every 300 feet. Works in my area. Will work in your area as well. Little bit of hassle for non-speeders'. There is just a quarter of a mile to deal with.
Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm The county engineer has told me that the driveways are mostly too close together to install "speed humps" on our street.
Poor excuse! speed humps are not needed to be installed in front of every driveway. So, these won't affect most driveways.
They’d be a “little bit” of hassle if they were only occasional. They’re frustrating as heck when they’re all over the place.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Metsfan91 »

chazas wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:51 pm
Metsfan91 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:41 pm Speed bumps. Every 300 feet. Works in my area. Will work in your area as well. Little bit of hassle for non-speeders'. There is just a quarter of a mile to deal with.
Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm The county engineer has told me that the driveways are mostly too close together to install "speed humps" on our street.
Poor excuse! speed humps are not needed to be installed in front of every driveway. So, these won't affect most driveways.
They’d be a “little bit” of hassle if they were only occasional. They’re frustrating as heck when they’re all over the place.
Some speeding tickets will straighten most of the speeders...The block seems to be lacking traffic enforcement. Perhaps, the local jurisdiction does not have enough police officers to enforce speed limit...Either pay more in taxes and hire more police officers or invest in speed bumps and deal with these for quarter of a mile.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by BernardShakey »

TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm I do find, however, that parents nowadays in the suburbs and in the cities at least do not allow enough freedom for the kids to make mistakes. Kids nowadays are a lot less independent as compared to when I was growing up. They are not used to making decisions for themselves and discovering what the consequences of those decisions are. I interact with a lot of kids through work, and it is a bit horrifying. They don’t hop on the bike and meet at the park or meet at the friends houses. The parents arrange everything for them. Play dates. Study dates. Drop off and pick up. No independence at all. I don’t think there has ever been a generation like this in the past.
Sorry to derail from the speeding issue but you make an interesting point. I grew up just as you did (the good old days!) and my kids grew up as the more recent generation you describe. It's different for sure but I'm not convinced it's better or worse.

I feel like what you describe has been going on for the better part of three decades now, at least in suburban areas, and so many of these kids are now well into adulthood --- we now have an opportunity to observe how they turned out.

I mostly deal with young adults now (obviously a small sample size and not representative of all groups) and they seem well adjusted and capable of living independently, problem solving, etc. Their academic prowess and ability to use technology in workplace to improve productivity is impressive and their public speaking / communication skills seem much better than in my generation (again, small sample).

So, yes, a very different generational upbringing now but there must be some benefits too ---- possibly less social / wasted time and more focus on academics and learning new things. I do cherish the times I spent as a kid playing ball in the street, biking down to the corner market for an RC Cola, etc. but on the other hand, I sure wish I could get back some of that time I wasted watching Get Smart, Gilligan's Island, etc!
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Beensabu »

BernardShakey wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:05 pm So, yes, a very different generational upbringing now but there must be some benefits too ---- possibly less social / wasted time and more focus on academics and learning new things. I do cherish the times I spent as a kid playing ball in the street, biking down to the corner market for an RC Cola, etc. but on the other hand, I sure wish I could get back some of that time I wasted watching Get Smart, Gilligan's Island, etc!
Oh, they still waste just as much time (probably more) on screens. It's just a lot more gaming and kid culture youtube rather than TV.

In a way, this generation (elementary now) kind of reminds me of the sci-fi novel "The Diamond Age, or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer". They really learn a LOT from the screen. And you don't really have control of it other than permissions that ixnay age-inappropriate content. They explore and find content on their own, based on their interests. Like books in the library used to be, but at the touch of a fingertip and fed based on algorithms based on prior clicks - It's very different.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:31 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm
Beensabu wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 6:09 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 3:25 pm When I was a kid my parents didn’t let me cross the street alone until I was old enough to do so responsibly. Look both ways. Wait for the light. I think the problem is not 35 in a 25 zone. It’s distracted driving. Also the examples given have nothing to do with 5-10 over the limit but being a jerk, driving around a school bus with its flashers on, etc.
Nothing much to be done about people being jerks, other than avoid coming into personal contact with them by any means.

I still don't let my kid cross the street alone (or go anywhere alone unsupervised). We drop off and pick up. Kid rode the bus home one year, but the stop was in front of a really mean lady's house, and she absolutely hates us (and pretty much everyone else with even a spark of joy in their heart). Enough parents and grandparents who picked up their kids from the stop expressed concerns that they actually moved that bus stop to the side of the highway, because that is apparently a safer place for children to be dropped off than in front of this lady's house.
That’s funny. Exactly. The same thing happened to my kids. Except the person who lived at the home was believed to be psychotic and on medication’s. So they moved the stop.
Omg. Are you my neighbor? Does crazy lady's name start with a J?
I do find, however, that parents nowadays in the suburbs and in the cities at least do not allow enough freedom for the kids to make mistakes. Kids nowadays are a lot less independent as compared to when I was growing up. They are not used to making decisions for themselves and discovering what the consequences of those decisions are. I interact with a lot of kids through work, and it is a bit horrifying. They don’t hop on the bike and meet at the park or meet at the friends houses. The parents arrange everything for them. Play dates. Study dates. Drop off and pick up. No independence at all. I don’t think there has ever been a generation like this in the past.
Yeah. It's definitely different. I was awkward and naïve but I still roamed the neighborhood alongside other kids. I just don't feel comfortable allowing her the same freedom. It's a different type of neighborhood. There's more opportunity to range into places where nobody really is, but perhaps might be. And there's less kid-connect. Everyone is on guard. School and school organized events/programs or family/friends is the connect these days, not the neighborhood. And following up on the friendships your child makes at school by making an effort to reach out / respond to parents of their friends.
That would be funny! It was actually a youngish man probably 30s and I think with mental illness I think psychotic!
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by RudyS »

Just saw an article in today's Boston Globe that the city of Boston is undertaking a program to increase safety in residential neighborhoods. A major part will be increased use of "speed humps." But the article has an interesting insight:

“In the past, when there have been speed humps kind of sparingly installed … what we find is that drivers will often just go to the next street over or a parallel one, and that just pushes a speeding car somewhere else,” Wu said at a press conference at Thetford Evans Playground in Dorchester. “So we really want to have a comprehensive approach where we’re looking zone by zone within our neighborhoods."
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by TacoLover »

BernardShakey wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:05 pm
TacoLover wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:02 pm I do find, however, that parents nowadays in the suburbs and in the cities at least do not allow enough freedom for the kids to make mistakes. Kids nowadays are a lot less independent as compared to when I was growing up. They are not used to making decisions for themselves and discovering what the consequences of those decisions are. I interact with a lot of kids through work, and it is a bit horrifying. They don’t hop on the bike and meet at the park or meet at the friends houses. The parents arrange everything for them. Play dates. Study dates. Drop off and pick up. No independence at all. I don’t think there has ever been a generation like this in the past.
Sorry to derail from the speeding issue but you make an interesting point. I grew up just as you did (the good old days!) and my kids grew up as the more recent generation you describe. It's different for sure but I'm not convinced it's better or worse.

I feel like what you describe has been going on for the better part of three decades now, at least in suburban areas, and so many of these kids are now well into adulthood --- we now have an opportunity to observe how they turned out.

I mostly deal with young adults now (obviously a small sample size and not representative of all groups) and they seem well adjusted and capable of living independently, problem solving, etc. Their academic prowess and ability to use technology in workplace to improve productivity is impressive and their public speaking / communication skills seem much better than in my generation (again, small sample).

So, yes, a very different generational upbringing now but there must be some benefits too ---- possibly less social / wasted time and more focus on academics and learning new things. I do cherish the times I spent as a kid playing ball in the street, biking down to the corner market for an RC Cola, etc. but on the other hand, I sure wish I could get back some of that time I wasted watching Get Smart, Gilligan's Island, etc!
I know this is totally unrelated to the original post. I work with kids all day long. And of course she can’t help but see them in the wild like in the mall and such. They are often zombies. Glued to their screens. However bad, our parents taught television was at least that was a fixed geographic position where our parents could monitor and Limit our television. For the most part wasting time for us was reading real books or playing sports with friends. Everyone was physically active, some more and some less. Now it seems like kids are really divided into super sedentary or super active. A lot of kids aren’t getting exercise at all and instead are sitting on their screens. And I don’t think he learned anything from a screen. Who had the most home runs in 1988? In the old days you had to go to the library and go to the card system and read several books before you find the answer, so there was at least some structure to learning the answer to your question or solving your problem. don’t you answer the question on the screen and see the answer and there’s no structure to it. You don’t really know the answer. You just found a trivia question and in five minutes the answer no longer belongs to you. Totally off topic. I think the world is much worse place because of screens.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Rebels38 »

Johnny Thinwallet wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 2:34 pm Before I get into the details here, I do want to acknowledge that I know different local jurisdictions would handle this situation in vastly different ways. I also want to share that I've already begun working with local officials on this (more on this below). All that said, I'm really looking for some ideas here on how to permanently solve an ongoing issue with speeding on our residential street. I'm also fully aware that this is an issue almost everywhere and that our neighborhood is not unique with this problem.

I live on a residential street with a 25mph speed limit. The specific street I live in is not a "cut-through" for main streets - it just dead ends into various cul-de-sacs, however, it is an artery within our neighborhood that feeds into roughly 100 additional homes beyond our home. Our stretch of road in question is about 1/4 mile long and is a straightaway. Sad to say, whoever designed our street couldn't have done a better job designing a dragstrip raceway. And that's how (too) many people treat it.

A few pertinent stats on our neighborhood:

1) The front porch of most houses sit only about 45 feet away from the road itself.
2) There are sidewalks in our community that sit 10 feet away from the road.
3) The street itself is about 23 feet wide and does permit street parking on both sides.
4) There is an elementary school walking distance from our neighborhood. Due to its close proximity, our neighborhood is in a transportation exclusion zone meaning that there's no bus service to that specific elementary school. Most students walk or ride their bike to school as it's only a 5-10 minute walk. The school sits on a 35mph street and that street has a 20mph school zone, but once students cross that street and enter our neighborhood the school zone no longer applies. Three months ago an 8-year-old was hit by a car trying to cross the street in that school zone (he was ok).
5) There are roughly 1,000 vehicles that travel past our house on our street each day. This was confirmed by previous data collection efforts by the local police department. The county engineer also provided information that suggests that each house will create 10 vehicle routes per day, and that lines up with the previous data collection measuring traffic.
6) We have a neighborhood HOA, though the streets are public streets. The HOA is useless in this matter. It's like George Costanza describing Kruger Industrial Smoothing: "we don't care, and it shows."
7) We also have a neighborhood social media presence. There are always reminders and/or people begging for other residents to slow down. It falls on deaf ears and has no discernible positive impact.

Twice previously I have asked the local police department for assistance on reducing speeding on our street. Each time they placed a "your speed" calming device that alerted drivers to their speed and collected data. The device would sit out there for a week, and during that week most people tended to behave better (i.e. the calming device was doing its job). The police department would analyze the data and say "outside of outliers, it's not too bad." They'd remove calming device and not soon after removing the calming device the excessive speeding would resume.

More recently, though, a group of neighbors and myself have now escalated this all the way to the top government officials in our local area. Due to this, it has also made its way to the chief of police in our local area. They have recently installed a data collection speed box for both directions, except this time the device is operating in "stealth" mode. What I mean is, the signs and collection boxes are there, but visibly it doesn't display anything. For drivers going by, the signs give the perception that they are turned off. But it is discreetly collecting data as drivers zoom by, and yes, they are indeed zooming by.

Of course, what is my definition of excessive speeding? It's admittedly subjective. I'm not really worried about people going 27 or 28mph. But the calming devices installed during the previous bandaid attempts to slow people down would clock at upwards of 35-40+ mph. You can feel those cars driving by. That same type of "feel" is what we see/feel regularly when the devices are removed. The fastest I saw was 59mph.

So this long-winded description brings me to some questions ...

Assuming the police department and local government will now finally see the issue by collecting data discreetly, what are some possible and/or reasonable long-term speed reduction strategies that we could suggest when discussing the data?

Speed bumps? Through hearsay, I've heard that the local government really doesn't want this but I've yet to confirm. The county engineer has told me that the driveways are mostly too close together to install "speed humps" on our street.

Permanent "your speed" calming devices?

Cameras that send out speed notices? I'm pretty sure they cannot set cameras up to provide actual violations.

Other?

I will end with this: the only solution I've ever seen that really slows people down is when the street is lined with parked cars. But while we do have some parked cars, there usually are not many. The first two "your speed" calming devices put out was actually a sign on a trailer parked in the street, which effectively acted like a parked car. The current signs, collecting data discreetly, are hanging from poles in the grass.
I feel for you as a father of three boys six and under. It’s a constant battle in our neighborhood. What’s worse it seems like the adults are less cautious than the teenagers. I and a few others complain and the sheriff will drive through for a few days (if we are lucky) but nothing changes.

If we complain on our neighborhood FB page, some adults even respond “Welp, it’s gonna be your fault if your in the road.” They don’t care. One even said. “I’m not going to feel guilty for killing or maiming somebody if I’m not in the wrong.” What a way to live.

Our speed limit is 25, too. But a retired guy down the street sat out in his lawn chair with a radar gun one Saturday and clocked a few people breaking 50mph.

The county won’t allow speed bumps and we have no HOA (which is nice, except ideally if we had one they would help with this).

I’m afraid we will have to move at some point. Otherwise the neighborhood is great. LOL.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by pizzy »

One of our requirements was a cul-de-sac or on a no outlet. We ended up with both. It's glorious.
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Lynette
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Lynette »

I haven't read the whole thread carefully. I live about 3 blocks from an elementary school. There are two volunteer guards at strategic crossroads who go out with signs and stop traffic to allow children to cross.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Glockenspiel »

RudyS wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:05 am Just saw an article in today's Boston Globe that the city of Boston is undertaking a program to increase safety in residential neighborhoods. A major part will be increased use of "speed humps." But the article has an interesting insight:

“In the past, when there have been speed humps kind of sparingly installed … what we find is that drivers will often just go to the next street over or a parallel one, and that just pushes a speeding car somewhere else,” Wu said at a press conference at Thetford Evans Playground in Dorchester. “So we really want to have a comprehensive approach where we’re looking zone by zone within our neighborhoods."
Interesting. I wonder what the city's maintenance staff thinks about that. In my experience in a snowy part of the country, any place that has snow plows absolutely will not put in speed humps. They're only good in areas that never need snow plows.
bombcar
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by bombcar »

My diagnosis has changed based on additional information.

You are not in a good neighborhood and you need to consider moving before property values drop further.
Interesting. I wonder what the city's maintenance staff thinks about that. In my experience in a snowy part of the country, any place that has snow plows absolutely will not put in speed humps. They're only good in areas that never need snow plows.
There is a snow-plow compatible similar thing, you make a drainage dip that the plow can ride but causes cars to explode if hit too fast.

It's more expensive, but it is doable.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Nver2Late »

Glockenspiel wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:31 am
RudyS wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 8:05 am Just saw an article in today's Boston Globe that the city of Boston is undertaking a program to increase safety in residential neighborhoods. A major part will be increased use of "speed humps." But the article has an interesting insight:

“In the past, when there have been speed humps kind of sparingly installed … what we find is that drivers will often just go to the next street over or a parallel one, and that just pushes a speeding car somewhere else,” Wu said at a press conference at Thetford Evans Playground in Dorchester. “So we really want to have a comprehensive approach where we’re looking zone by zone within our neighborhoods."
Interesting. I wonder what the city's maintenance staff thinks about that. In my experience in a snowy part of the country, any place that has snow plows absolutely will not put in speed humps. They're only good in areas that never need snow plows.
We have speed b(h)umps throughout neighborhood here in Alaska. They are designed to work with snow plowing, fire equipment, etc. They are extremely annoying but do work at that particular spot, but not so much in between. One particular one I walk by daily, at least 3 or 4 times a year I will pick up smashed taillight pieces. Apparently people occasionally get rear-ended for slowing down for the speed bumps. Occurs mostly in the winter, so I would guess slick roads contributed.

We have 4 routes that we can take into our neighborhood to reach our home. We have the choice of 0, 1, 2, or 3 speedbumps. Of course, 3 is the shortest, most direct route. We typically choose the second longest, 1 speedbump route. The 0 route is quite a bit longer and involves driving through an adjacent neighborhood to backdoor into ours, so we only take it when headed in that direction. Prior to the speedbump installation, we always took the 3 route. So at least in our case, it did re-direct us.

OP - Have you tried just hanging out in the front yard, playing with kids, and just giving the speeders the stink eye? That seems to work for us on our street, but you will be labeled "that guy".
"Better is the enemy of good." Good is good.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by WS1 »

My street is one-way, narrow, lined with cars on one side, and has a 15mph speed limit, but since it's flat and arrow straight 25-35 feels comfortable. So I give the stink eye, casually step ever so slightly off the curb when cars approach, and put patio furniture in the street when all the kids are out playing. I really like the idea of collecting my own speed data and politely presenting to the city and then the world. Averages don't matter; this is all about the right tail. Even if only 10 cars/day exceed 40mph, it only takes one to kill or maim one of your neighbors.

Full disclosure: I have the anger of Streetsblog, Strong Towns, Not Just Bikes, and The War on Cars flowing through my veins. I believe the ability to safely and comfortably walk EVERYWHERE is basic human right and having that infrastructure has all sorts of nice downstream effects.
Last edited by WS1 on Tue May 23, 2023 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by thedaybeforetoday »

WS1 wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 1:32 pm My street is one-way, narrow, lined with cars on one side, and has a 15mph speed limit, but since it's flat and arrow straight 25-35 feels comfortable. So I give the stink eye, casually step ever so slightly off the curb when cars approach, and put patio furniture in the street when all the kids are out playing. I really like the idea of collecting my own speed data and politely presenting to the city and then the world. Averages don't matter; this is all about the right tail. Even if only 10 cars/day exceed 40mph, it only takes one to kill or maim one of your neighbors.

Full disclosure: I have the anger of Streetsblog, Strong Towns, Not Just Bikes, and The War on Cars flowing through my veins. Believe the ability to safely and comfortably walk EVERYWHERE is basic human right and having that infrastructure has all sorts of nice downstream effects.
Excellent post.
Thanks for bringing up the bolded point. I don't believe that's been brought to the discussion until now.
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FlyHighAnalyzeThis
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by FlyHighAnalyzeThis »

Living in Germany for 4 years, I’ve found that the speed signs that show an unhappy face when you are over the limit and your speed colored green where it’s lower actually is effective.

I’ve also alternated parking my car on each side of the road to try to slow people down. They still drive very fast though…
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by JackoC »

WhyNotUs wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:24 am
eddot98 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 9:00 am I find it mildly amusing how people with no training, education, or experience in the operation of roads and highways seem to think that their judgment is better than professionals who have been working in the field for their whole careers. I wouldn’t tell my dentist how to repair a cavity nor would I tell a carpenter how to construct a bookcase. I spent over 40 years as a Professional Engineer working for a State Highway Agency and later for a contractor. Although I have some knowledge of setting speed limits, it was not my area of expertise and I would no sooner second guess the decision to set a speed limit on a certain road just because I lived on it and I felt that some drivers were driving too quickly.
I have a certain amount of empathy for this position. Citizens are better at bringing forward concerns and requests for large expenditures in a smaller traffic area need to be placed in the larger context. The other side of the coin is that engineers make traffic designs on ITE manuals that are often based on scant data points and lack of context. They also designed "efficient" highways that destroyed communities. I have experience dealing with highway/road engineers and while it has gotten better over the years, level of service and moving the most cars for the least cost is still a prime motivation. Many costs are still externalized to local residents.

I think a balance of respect for the profession and humility on the part of engineers is the best way forward. I think reasonable, fact based people could bring forward proposals, knowing that they will then be tested against research and budget realities.
I agree. And government in a representative system is inherently political. Its goal is for the elected officials to get reelected, and they run the departments ultimately, not non-political 'career professionals'. We've chosen the electoral process as the least worst way to align government with the public interest, but professional considerations are never the only ones in government. I'm an engineer by training though not to do with roads, but even somebody with no quantitative background or much formal education can see that it's common for roads to have inconsistent speed limits. Most obviously if you go from one jurisdiction or state to another, but even within a more limited area sometimes. And like a lot of such things, the idea they could be set by a single 'scientific' standard is itself doubtful. There are valid competing interests, neighborhoods generally want cars to go slower, people driving through want to get where they are going faster. It's not up to apolitical 'professionals' to decide whose interest to weigh more heavily, and when elected officials pretend otherwise that's what it is, a pretense.

I do agree on balance though and taking advantage of real technical expertise you're paying for anyway, emphasizing goals rather than means (enforcement vs. 'chicanes' and so forth) from a citizen POV.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by JackoC »

Glockenspiel wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:31 am
Interesting. I wonder what the city's maintenance staff thinks about that. In my experience in a snowy part of the country, any place that has snow plows absolutely will not put in speed humps. They're only good in areas that never need snow plows.
I don't know what 'snowy part' is (previous exchange referred to Massachusetts) but there are significant snows most winters in the NY area and there are places with speed bumps/humps (the asphalt bumps, rubber/plastic ones drilled into the pavement) or 'tables', in our area of northern NJ though not in our city. It's, pretty obviously, where local neighborhood wheels squeaked enough vs. the interests opposing them (general inconvenience to drivers and/or the public works, fire, EMS etc. depts in that municipality). There are places also which did have them but they were removed or the profile lowered. A hypothesis that there's a single engineering standard or answer to this in a given road/traffic/climate situation though is obviously not true.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by quantAndHold »

Everyone thinks they’re a safe driver. As someone who rides a bike and walks a lot, I can tell you you’re not as safe as you think you are. And your analysis of what constitutes a safe speed on a particular road doesn’t take anyone who isn’t in a car into account at all.

My city has done a lot of road diets, bulb-outs, roundabouts, protected bike lanes, transit lanes, and crosswalks in the last five years. I can tell you from experience that they do work. But they tend to make people who think the only way to get from place to place is to drive a car livid.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by RCL »

pizzy wrote: Tue May 23, 2023 9:03 am One of our requirements was a cul-de-sac or on a no outlet. We ended up with both. It's glorious.
Same
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by Arboecars »

The clogged artery approach seems the most successful. Park you car on the street and another across the street. You just clogged the artery and slowed down the speeder. Try it! It works.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by tetractys »

Our stretch of road in question is about 1/4 mile long and is a straightaway. Sad to say, whoever designed our street couldn't have done a better job designing a dragstrip raceway. And that's how (too) many people treat it.
Strategically placed single lane zigzags with landscaping and pedestrian/bicycle bypasses.

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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by WhyNotUs »

Arboecars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 10:11 am The clogged artery approach seems the most successful. Park you car on the street and another across the street. You just clogged the artery and slowed down the speeder. Try it! It works.
I like the DIY aspect of this approach.
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by SuzBanyan »

Have you tried advocating for traffic circles at each intersection? My City is proposing to put them in on my street partly because there is a street where people regularly exceed the 25MPH speed limit. When I suggested just changing it from a 2 way stop to a 4 way stop, I was told that was not allowed because there was not enough vehicular traffic!
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Re: Strategies for Permanently Reducing Speeding on Residential Streets

Post by LadyGeek »

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