Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

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SeattleLaw
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Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

We have a cash back card. It’s fine, nothing special. I was looking at the Amex Green and Gold, and based on our spend (lots of travel and eating out, moderate grocery spend) we would rack up enough points during the year that (even with the annual fee) it would be comparable to our cash back card if we redeemed points for flights on Amex travel.

I have 0 desire to chase points and miles or spend time trying to transfer them for frequent flyer miles. Has anyone else found this to be a good way to spend membership rewards points? Any other better options? Are the green or gold card decent long term cards?
Jags4186
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

Points are worth $0.01 when used to purchase flights on AMEX Travel. I’d suggest getting no fee cash back cards and avoiding AMEX Travel.

If you’re willing to use 2 or 3 cards you can drastically increase your cash back. What is your annual credit card spend and what is the breakdown by category?
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Totally agree. I used to specifically use an American Airlines card to get miles by buying savings bonds. Buy $120k in bonds, use the points to upgrade the family to Aruba.

I dumped that card and no longer pay the card company to do points. I find that getting money back on a card is always useful. I have 3 or 4 that give me 2% with no fee.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

Jags4186 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:10 pm Points are worth $0.01 when used to purchase flights on AMEX Travel. I’d suggest getting no fee cash back cards and avoiding AMEX Travel.

If you’re willing to use 2 or 3 cards you can drastically increase your cash back. What is your annual credit card spend and what is the breakdown by category?
I'd rather stick to one card if possible. Typically 75-80k. 10k is probably general travel. 7k a year restaurants, and 6k groceries. The rest is general spend.
ZinCO
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by ZinCO »

I do exactly what you are thinking about, because our available travel dates are always limited and never line up with affordable point redemptions directly with airlines. However I probably wouldn't be doing it through Amex Travel if not for the Business Platinum card, which makes MR points worth 1.54 cents apiece (rather than the usual 1 cent) for flight redemptions.
Jags4186
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:38 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:10 pm Points are worth $0.01 when used to purchase flights on AMEX Travel. I’d suggest getting no fee cash back cards and avoiding AMEX Travel.

If you’re willing to use 2 or 3 cards you can drastically increase your cash back. What is your annual credit card spend and what is the breakdown by category?
I'd rather stick to one card if possible. Typically 75-80k. 10k is probably general travel. 7k a year restaurants, and 6k groceries. The rest is general spend.
Ok:

Let’s say you spend $80k

AMEX Gold:
$7k restaurants = 28k points
$6k groceries = 24k points

$10k travel - let’s say 1/2 that is airlines and 1/2 is other travel

$5k airlines = 15k points
$5k other travel = 5k points

$57k other = 57k points

Total points earned = 129k = $1,290 in flights = 1.61% return on spend

AMEX Green:
$10k travel = 30k points
$7k dining = 21k points
$63k other = 63k points

Total points earned = 118k = $1,180 in flights = 1.475% return on spend

Vs. a 2% cashback card

$80k spend = $1,600 cash to spend on whatever you want.

Oh and no annual fee.

Of course you’d get a signup bonus from AMEX in the neighborhood of 60-80k points vs say a $200 signup bonus with a 2% cashback card. That would tip the scales in AMEX’s favor in the first year and then you’d be losing in subsequent years.
fuddbogle
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by fuddbogle »

SeattleLaw wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:38 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:10 pm Points are worth $0.01 when used to purchase flights on AMEX Travel. I’d suggest getting no fee cash back cards and avoiding AMEX Travel.

If you’re willing to use 2 or 3 cards you can drastically increase your cash back. What is your annual credit card spend and what is the breakdown by category?
I'd rather stick to one card if possible. Typically 75-80k. 10k is probably general travel. 7k a year restaurants, and 6k groceries. The rest is general spend.
Stick with cash back since you're wanting simplification. You can get better, particularly flying Biz class, but it takes some work chasing points,understanding the transfer partners and timing.
chassis
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by chassis »

SeattleLaw wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:01 pm We have a cash back card. It’s fine, nothing special. I was looking at the Amex Green and Gold, and based on our spend (lots of travel and eating out, moderate grocery spend) we would rack up enough points during the year that (even with the annual fee) it would be comparable to our cash back card if we redeemed points for flights on Amex travel.

I have 0 desire to chase points and miles or spend time trying to transfer them for frequent flyer miles. Has anyone else found this to be a good way to spend membership rewards points? Any other better options? Are the green or gold card decent long term cards?
We have purchased flights with credit card points many times. It’s a good program for us.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

chassis wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:18 am
SeattleLaw wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:01 pm We have a cash back card. It’s fine, nothing special. I was looking at the Amex Green and Gold, and based on our spend (lots of travel and eating out, moderate grocery spend) we would rack up enough points during the year that (even with the annual fee) it would be comparable to our cash back card if we redeemed points for flights on Amex travel.

I have 0 desire to chase points and miles or spend time trying to transfer them for frequent flyer miles. Has anyone else found this to be a good way to spend membership rewards points? Any other better options? Are the green or gold card decent long term cards?
We have purchased flights with credit card points many times. It’s a good program for us.
Which CC program? I know chase has some good redemptions, but you have to use their version of Expedia to book it. If I’m going to use a travel portal, I’d rather do Amex in case something goes wrong.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:07 am
Total points earned = 118k = $1,180 in flights = 1.475% return on spend

Vs. a 2% cashback card

$80k spend = $1,600 cash to spend on whatever you want.

Oh and no annual fee.

Of course you’d get a signup bonus from AMEX in the neighborhood of 60-80k points vs say a $200 signup bonus with a 2% cashback card. That would tip the scales in AMEX’s favor in the first year and then you’d be losing in subsequent years.
It’s interesting to see the math, thanks! I wonder if the benefits of the charge cards, like return protection and some of the travel protections, would make up for the difference?

Is there any value in these point cards outside of a signup bonus? I know people who have had them for years and don’t churn cards, so I’d assume there’s some value? I used to have a platinum card, and the travel benefits were great, but I got rid of it when the lounges became overrun, and the “credits” became like a coupon book. Never could find any value.
Jags4186
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 8:08 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:07 am
Total points earned = 118k = $1,180 in flights = 1.475% return on spend

Vs. a 2% cashback card

$80k spend = $1,600 cash to spend on whatever you want.

Oh and no annual fee.

Of course you’d get a signup bonus from AMEX in the neighborhood of 60-80k points vs say a $200 signup bonus with a 2% cashback card. That would tip the scales in AMEX’s favor in the first year and then you’d be losing in subsequent years.
It’s interesting to see the math, thanks! I wonder if the benefits of the charge cards, like return protection and some of the travel protections, would make up for the difference?

Is there any value in these point cards outside of a signup bonus? I know people who have had them for years and don’t churn cards, so I’d assume there’s some value? I used to have a platinum card, and the travel benefits were great, but I got rid of it when the lounges became overrun, and the “credits” became like a coupon book. Never could find any value.
Those benefits are not unique to AMEX and can be had with many issuers. In the past 20 years I can tell you I used credit extended warranty services maybe 3 times to success on relatively low value items, attempted return protection once and was denied, and successfully used the CDW damage waiver once with great effort and agita. WRT to the rental car damage waiver, if I were to rent a car in that particular locale again I would have paid the $50 for the rental car agency insurance and not had to worry about anything.

There is plenty of value in points. There's a multi-billion dollar travel industry online teaching people how to leverage points for maximum value. You said you don't want to do that, so I don't think it is a good option for you if you're seeking higher rewards return. As shown above in my math, there is value. It's just generally not as good a value compared to cashback if you're not willing to put in any effort. Lots of people make suboptimal financial decisions whether it's out of ignorance, lack of time, or contentment with the status quo.
pizzy
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by pizzy »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:07 am
SeattleLaw wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:38 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:10 pm Points are worth $0.01 when used to purchase flights on AMEX Travel. I’d suggest getting no fee cash back cards and avoiding AMEX Travel.

If you’re willing to use 2 or 3 cards you can drastically increase your cash back. What is your annual credit card spend and what is the breakdown by category?
I'd rather stick to one card if possible. Typically 75-80k. 10k is probably general travel. 7k a year restaurants, and 6k groceries. The rest is general spend.
Ok:

Let’s say you spend $80k

AMEX Gold:
$7k restaurants = 28k points
$6k groceries = 24k points

$10k travel - let’s say 1/2 that is airlines and 1/2 is other travel

$5k airlines = 15k points
$5k other travel = 5k points

$57k other = 57k points

Total points earned = 129k = $1,290 in flights = 1.61% return on spend

AMEX Green:
$10k travel = 30k points
$7k dining = 21k points
$63k other = 63k points

Total points earned = 118k = $1,180 in flights = 1.475% return on spend

Vs. a 2% cashback card

$80k spend = $1,600 cash to spend on whatever you want.

Oh and no annual fee.

Of course you’d get a signup bonus from AMEX in the neighborhood of 60-80k points vs say a $200 signup bonus with a 2% cashback card. That would tip the scales in AMEX’s favor in the first year and then you’d be losing in subsequent years.
In other words, focusing on category spend never moves the needle.

That $80k could land you $8,000 in cash.travel with very little work. But again, the spread between $1600 and $8000 might not be worth the work to many people.
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Topic Author
SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:00 am There is plenty of value in points. There's a multi-billion dollar travel industry online teaching people how to leverage points for maximum value. You said you don't want to do that, so I don't think it is a good option for you if you're seeking higher rewards return. As shown above in my math, there is value. It's just generally not as good a value compared to cashback if you're not willing to put in any effort. Lots of people make suboptimal financial decisions whether it's out of ignorance, lack of time, or contentment with the status quo.
I'm sure you are correct, but it just seems too complicated unless you are chasing sign up bonuses and banking a lot of points. The fact that there are services out there you pay to help you use your rewards points, indicates to me it isn't as easy as just transferring them to an airline program and buying a flight with miles.

Any time I've tried to use FF miles, the amount you need for a single ticket are astronomical, and forget trying to buy one for your spouse. Assuming I rack up 120k points in a year based on regular spend, that's maybe a single round trip economy ticket to Europe, which I could pay $750 cash for. Or, I could maybe get a one way business class ticket, but then I end up spending $700 for the one-way economy ticket back.

I wouldn't mind spending an hour finding a good flight, but I fear the work needed to get free flights on points through transfer partners is a lot more than that. (or at least a flight that isn't on a weird schedule with multiple stops and odd timing).
Jags4186
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:41 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:00 am There is plenty of value in points. There's a multi-billion dollar travel industry online teaching people how to leverage points for maximum value. You said you don't want to do that, so I don't think it is a good option for you if you're seeking higher rewards return. As shown above in my math, there is value. It's just generally not as good a value compared to cashback if you're not willing to put in any effort. Lots of people make suboptimal financial decisions whether it's out of ignorance, lack of time, or contentment with the status quo.
I'm sure you are correct, but it just seems too complicated unless you are chasing sign up bonuses and banking a lot of points. The fact that there are services out there you pay to help you use your rewards points, indicates to me it isn't as easy as just transferring them to an airline program and buying a flight with miles.

Any time I've tried to use FF miles, the amount you need for a single ticket are astronomical, and forget trying to buy one for your spouse. Assuming I rack up 120k points in a year based on regular spend, that's maybe a single round trip economy ticket to Europe, which I could pay $750 cash for. Or, I could maybe get a one way business class ticket, but then I end up spending $700 for the one-way economy ticket back.

I wouldn't mind spending an hour finding a good flight, but I fear the work needed to get free flights on points through transfer partners is a lot more than that. (or at least a flight that isn't on a weird schedule with multiple stops and odd timing).
Again, it’s about the effort. If you just want to put $80k spend on an AMEX Green card you can’t do any of the aspirational things you see. If you want to put forth effort, you could earn over 1,000,000 points with $80k spend. As someone who is spending $80k/yr on credit cards I assume you are a big enough earner that the juice may not be worth the squeeze. For example if you could bill 10 additional hours as an attorney and make $5k extra this year, that’s probably a better return on time for you.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by deltaneutral83 »

Miles with an airline that aren't tied to revenue in redemptions (the big 3) are not going to be appealing unless you're a gamer and hawk quick deals, as the redemption (as noted by OP) are bad for domestic travel most of the time. International biz class is where there is much more consistent value. OP seems to do this, so that should fit though.

Given OP's spend and needs, the Plat/Gold combo would provide multiples of the annual fees that are required. Have to know base airport(s) to further drill down though. Gold has credits that effectively bring AF down to $10 and the 4x at grocery/dining more than makes up the difference, that is a nor brainer. Plat is a no brainer if you fly Delta and have centurion lounges to airports you go through. AF for 3 other family members is also only $175 additional/year. There are some homerun referrals to the Amex suite through early June FYI, you have to go through someone's link.

OP, you don't have to have 14 spreadsheets on credit cards to get a lot of value, you can just dip your toes in the water and get tremendous value but of course it will require more than zero effort.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:23 am OP, you don't have to have 14 spreadsheets on credit cards to get a lot of value, you can just dip your toes in the water and get tremendous value but of course it will require more than zero effort.
Thanks! What would be the best way to dip my toes in?

Out of curiosity I looked at some BA flights and they have good redemptions, but then you get to the fees and woah! An economy flight to Europe would be about 80k points and $650 in fees! The cash price is $800. Looking at the transfer partners, there's nothing I'm really too keen on.

My firm has a corporate card program, so I'd qualify for $75 off green, $100 off gold, and $150 off platinum, which brings down the annual fee a good amount. I'd get a plat (which I used to have) except the lounges have become circuses.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by ResearchMed »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:05 pm
deltaneutral83 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:23 am OP, you don't have to have 14 spreadsheets on credit cards to get a lot of value, you can just dip your toes in the water and get tremendous value but of course it will require more than zero effort.
Thanks! What would be the best way to dip my toes in?

Out of curiosity I looked at some BA flights and they have good redemptions, but then you get to the fees and woah! An economy flight to Europe would be about 80k points and $650 in fees! The cash price is $800. Looking at the transfer partners, there's nothing I'm really too keen on.

My firm has a corporate card program, so I'd qualify for $75 off green, $100 off gold, and $150 off platinum, which brings down the annual fee a good amount. I'd get a plat (which I used to have) except the lounges have become circuses.

It's been a couple of years (pre-Covid) and things may have changed, but getting points with BA did have outrageous fees. For J (business) or F class, the fees were even higher, but at least the flight was *much* nicer. Still, if one could get similar flight(s) on other carriers/programs, that was the thing to do.

So do look at other carriers and awards programs.
And don't forget to consider using points that transfer to a partner airline. We've found that the best use in many cases, for our AA points.

Unfortunately, to get a good sense of some of these twists and turns... it does take some time. It can be quite confusing at first. Well, perhaps not "confusing", but difficult to figure out what a "good/better" use of the points is.
So for starters, it might make sense to consider the points you need to use (and any fees!) and what the cash price would have been, and then you can determine whether this current option is at least "good".

About those "fees"? For wonderful F flights to Asia, the case fee was - wait for it - $5.60 each.
[I'm pretty sure I remember that number correctly. In any event, it was a trivial amount.]
So it can really make sense to learn a bit about which flight/program to use.

I'm not sure which programs you have access to.
We use American (AA) and Amex.
Amex points always tranfer to a partner airline, given that Amex doesn't run an airline.
But with those AA points, we've *always* transferred the points to fly with a partner airline. The "AA Partner Airline" points chart has been much "less expensive" (fewer points) than the same A to B trip using AA points on AA flights. (That has always seemed crazy, but that's what it had been. I haven't checked very recently. but am about to try to plan another trip.)

One last thing: We *would* pay for Business class on long haul flights, so it makes sense for us to compare the "value" of the points to the cash price of Business class tickets. But if someone would only have paid for economy, then perhaps it's not a good "value" to use more points for Business class.

RM
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by rainfallwinterberry »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:36 pm Totally agree. I used to specifically use an American Airlines card to get miles by buying savings bonds. Buy $120k in bonds, use the points to upgrade the family to Aruba.

I dumped that card and no longer pay the card company to do points. I find that getting money back on a card is always useful. I have 3 or 4 that give me 2% with no fee.
How do you buy bonds with a credit card? This would be the holy grail of manufactured spending -- getting points for cash-equivalent spending.

For some context for the uninitiated, the credit card churning community consists of people that constantly apply for new credit cards to get their sign-up bonuses. Usually it's in the form of spend $x,000 in 3 months to get $y cashback/$z points, and usually it takes a bit of work to hit multiple of these a year.

The idea behind manufactured spending is to "spend" on the credit card whilst actually buying cash-equivalent products -- the classic route is buying visa gift cards, then buying money orders with those gift cards, which you then deposit right back into your back account, thus spending money without actually spending it.

If you could actually buy savings bonds this would instantly blow every other manufactured spending scheme out of the water.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

rainfallwinterberry wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 7:03 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 8:36 pm Totally agree. I used to specifically use an American Airlines card to get miles by buying savings bonds. Buy $120k in bonds, use the points to upgrade the family to Aruba.

I dumped that card and no longer pay the card company to do points. I find that getting money back on a card is always useful. I have 3 or 4 that give me 2% with no fee.
How do you buy bonds with a credit card? This would be the holy grail of manufactured spending -- getting points for cash-equivalent spending.

For some context for the uninitiated, the credit card churning community consists of people that constantly apply for new credit cards to get their sign-up bonuses. Usually it's in the form of spend $x,000 in 3 months to get $y cashback/$z points, and usually it takes a bit of work to hit multiple of these a year.

The idea behind manufactured spending is to "spend" on the credit card whilst actually buying cash-equivalent products -- the classic route is buying visa gift cards, then buying money orders with those gift cards, which you then deposit right back into your back account, thus spending money without actually spending it.

If you could actually buy savings bonds this would instantly blow every other manufactured spending scheme out of the water.
Yea you could like 20 years ago. Not anymore.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

We’re planning a move to a United hub city, and tend to travel to Europe when we go international. There are a few BA flights to Heathrow as well as Lufthansa to Frankfurt and a seasonal Air France flight. Everything else is United and requires a connection in Newark to get to Europe.

We always prefer to fly as direct as possible. Does anyone know if it’s even worth having an Amex Membership Rewards card if you live in a United hub? Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by ZinCO »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am We’re planning a move to a United hub city, and tend to travel to Europe when we go international. There are a few BA flights to Heathrow as well as Lufthansa to Frankfurt and a seasonal Air France flight. Everything else is United and requires a connection in Newark to get to Europe.

We always prefer to fly as direct as possible. Does anyone know if it’s even worth having an Amex Membership Rewards card if you live in a United hub? Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
I live in a United Hub with direct flights to London, Frankfurt, Munich, and Tokyo. I collect both MR and UR, and the MR are mostly used to transfer to Avianca Lifemiles (for Star Alliance flights) or to buy flights through Amex directly (which was your original question when you started this thread).

Don't forget that flying through Frankfurt (and to a lesser extent, Munich) on either United or Lufthansa basically opens up all of Europe to you via United code-shares.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by THY4373 »

deltaneutral83 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 10:23 am Miles with an airline that aren't tied to revenue in redemptions (the big 3) are not going to be appealing unless you're a gamer and hawk quick deals, as the redemption (as noted by OP) are bad for domestic travel most of the time.
Everybody's experience is different. Certainly in the immediate pre-Covid times I rarely found good redemptions for points in domestic economy but post-Covid I have been getting 2-3.7 cents of value pretty easily. Maybe it is just the routes my son and I fly.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by THY4373 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:05 pm Out of curiosity I looked at some BA flights and they have good redemptions, but then you get to the fees and woah! An economy flight to Europe would be about 80k points and $650 in fees! The cash price is $800. Looking at the transfer partners, there's nothing I'm really too keen on.
BA has introduced reward flight savers on all classes other than first. Basically you pay more in points but pay less in cash. I don't know whether that changes the economics on economy fare as I haven't looked. Also some Oneworld partners do not pass along all he surcharges so oftentimes booking a BA flight using another carrier's points can be a better deal.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

ZinCO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:28 pm
SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am We’re planning a move to a United hub city, and tend to travel to Europe when we go international. There are a few BA flights to Heathrow as well as Lufthansa to Frankfurt and a seasonal Air France flight. Everything else is United and requires a connection in Newark to get to Europe.

We always prefer to fly as direct as possible. Does anyone know if it’s even worth having an Amex Membership Rewards card if you live in a United hub? Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
I live in a United Hub with direct flights to London, Frankfurt, Munich, and Tokyo. I collect both MR and UR, and the MR are mostly used to transfer to Avianca Lifemiles (for Star Alliance flights) or to buy flights through Amex directly (which was your original question when you started this thread).

Don't forget that flying through Frankfurt (and to a lesser extent, Munich) on either United or Lufthansa basically opens up all of Europe to you via United code-shares.
Thanks! What's your luck been with the LifeMiles for United/Lufthansa flights? Any direct flights to Europe would be BA/Lufthansa. Knocked BA out due to fees, and I've had mixed luck on Lufthansa tickets in the past from another destination (i.e. hard to find a premium economy/business seat), so I'd be worried there are fewer rewards seats available.
ZinCO
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by ZinCO »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 4:46 pm
ZinCO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:28 pm
SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am We’re planning a move to a United hub city, and tend to travel to Europe when we go international. There are a few BA flights to Heathrow as well as Lufthansa to Frankfurt and a seasonal Air France flight. Everything else is United and requires a connection in Newark to get to Europe.

We always prefer to fly as direct as possible. Does anyone know if it’s even worth having an Amex Membership Rewards card if you live in a United hub? Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
I live in a United Hub with direct flights to London, Frankfurt, Munich, and Tokyo. I collect both MR and UR, and the MR are mostly used to transfer to Avianca Lifemiles (for Star Alliance flights) or to buy flights through Amex directly (which was your original question when you started this thread).

Don't forget that flying through Frankfurt (and to a lesser extent, Munich) on either United or Lufthansa basically opens up all of Europe to you via United code-shares.
Thanks! What's your luck been with the LifeMiles for United/Lufthansa flights? Any direct flights to Europe would be BA/Lufthansa. Knocked BA out due to fees, and I've had mixed luck on Lufthansa tickets in the past from another destination (i.e. hard to find a premium economy/business seat), so I'd be worried there are fewer rewards seats available.
Hit and miss due to the general lack of United saver fares. Lufthansa has worked out OK in the past.

I'm curious though what United hub you are moving to that does NOT have direct UA flights to Europe? I'm not aware of any.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

ZinCO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:02 pm
SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 4:46 pm
ZinCO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:28 pm
SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am We’re planning a move to a United hub city, and tend to travel to Europe when we go international. There are a few BA flights to Heathrow as well as Lufthansa to Frankfurt and a seasonal Air France flight. Everything else is United and requires a connection in Newark to get to Europe.

We always prefer to fly as direct as possible. Does anyone know if it’s even worth having an Amex Membership Rewards card if you live in a United hub? Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
I live in a United Hub with direct flights to London, Frankfurt, Munich, and Tokyo. I collect both MR and UR, and the MR are mostly used to transfer to Avianca Lifemiles (for Star Alliance flights) or to buy flights through Amex directly (which was your original question when you started this thread).

Don't forget that flying through Frankfurt (and to a lesser extent, Munich) on either United or Lufthansa basically opens up all of Europe to you via United code-shares.
Thanks! What's your luck been with the LifeMiles for United/Lufthansa flights? Any direct flights to Europe would be BA/Lufthansa. Knocked BA out due to fees, and I've had mixed luck on Lufthansa tickets in the past from another destination (i.e. hard to find a premium economy/business seat), so I'd be worried there are fewer rewards seats available.
Hit and miss due to the general lack of United saver fares. Lufthansa has worked out OK in the past.

I'm curious though what United hub you are moving to that does NOT have direct UA flights to Europe? I'm not aware of any.
Denver. I think they may have a direct to Heathrow, but otherwise it's BA and Lufthansa.
ZinCO
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by ZinCO »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:13 pm
ZinCO wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:02 pm
Hit and miss due to the general lack of United saver fares. Lufthansa has worked out OK in the past.

I'm curious though what United hub you are moving to that does NOT have direct UA flights to Europe? I'm not aware of any.
Denver. I think they may have a direct to Heathrow, but otherwise it's BA and Lufthansa.
Since I'm also talking about Denver, I can assure you United flies to London (x2), Frankfurt, Munich, and Tokyo Narita direct. Also served by BA (London) and Lufthansa (Frankfurt, Munich) as you mentioned.
DurangoWino
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by DurangoWino »

My son recently used his Chase Sapphire points to fly with his wife on Singapore Airlines from Houston to Manchester. He said that their business class was far better than United. Also SA charged much less in points than United did. They took a train to London the day they landed to sightsee then flew to Lyon the following day.

He seems to do very well building up points using his Sapphire and Amex Gold cards.
fuddbogle
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by fuddbogle »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am
Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
Search for one ways. Flying out of London is where you get outrageous fees.

We booked one way on points Chicago to Heathrow in premium economy on a A380 and the fees were roughly $200 each. Then bought cash flights to Italy. Then flew back via United with fees about $100 each.

With BA if you get routed through or out of London, the value is lost. It happens a lot.

Flying into Madrid is a good option with BA if that works.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

fuddbogle wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:19 am
SeattleLaw wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 am
Amex transfers to BA, but as noted above, the fees and taxes are insane and you may as well just buy the ticket for cash.
Search for one ways. Flying out of London is where you get outrageous fees.
Good call! I don't mind premium economy - or really economy for that matter, heading back west, but the overnight flights over to Europe are killer in economy. It's 9+ hours and I can't sleep sitting bolt upright. I'll check out BA flights in premium/biz on the way over and then maybe a united/Lufthansa on the way back.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by boglegirl »

fuddbogle wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:19 am ...
Search for one ways. Flying out of London is where you get outrageous fees.

We booked one way on points Chicago to Heathrow in premium economy on a A380 and the fees were roughly $200 each. Then bought cash flights to Italy. Then flew back via United with fees about $100 each.

With BA if you get routed through or out of London, the value is lost. It happens a lot.

Flying into Madrid is a good option with BA if that works.
You'd be on their partner Iberia if flying US to Madrid - and yes, the fees are much lower than flying BA to London!
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JaneyLH
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by JaneyLH »

For relatively little hassle, I maintain the Chase Sapphire Reserve credit card. It refunds the first $300/year I spend on travel-related items. It provides free trip insurance for both my husband and myself, which I've used several times when stuck overnight in intermediate airports due to weather. It allows me to transfer points easily to my frequent flyer programs, or I can use them like cash with a discount through Chase's travel service. We are often able to gain access to airport lounges through the free Priority Pass membership benefit.

I took out an Amex Platinum card for a 100,000 mile bonus, but cancelled it just after the one year anniversary because the trip insurance was lousy, lounge access was lousy, and travel-related rebates extremely lousy.

I have a girlfriend who maintains the Amex Platinum card because she believes she gets better service and more respect when she uses the card. :confused
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

Resurrecting my old thread to make an observation and ask a question. For years we've had a basic 1.5% cash back Amex and the BoA Travel Rewards card. Neither have an annual fee. The rewards don't make us rich, but it sure is simple.

I thought I'd dip my toes into the points world, and I ended up getting the Amex Gold against my better judgment. I liked the idea of a charge card, we spend a bunch on food and travel, and I thought we'd use the monthly "credits."

Here's what I've found:

1. These credit card "credits" are generally pretty worthless unless they are a broad category like "travel." I haven't eaten at a Cheesecake Factory in 10 years and don't plan on going any time soon. I found myself ordering from Grub Hub (and paying significantly more) just so I could "use" the credit. Same for the Uber credit. I don't take an Uber monthly, so I found myself ordering delivery food just to "use" the credit. At the end of the day I was spending money I wouldn't otherwise just to feel like I was using the benefit.

2. I have about 100k MR points and not a clue what to do with them. We want to take a trip to Europe and the Caribbean this year, and I probably spent three hours looking for award flights, and you can barely get a round trip economy ticket for 100k points. I just don't understand how people get any sort of value out of points unless you have a ton of time on your hands or a zillion points. If I used what I make per hour at my day job with the time I spend just trying to use these darn points, I'm out quite a bit of money.

Which brings me to my question... I'm planning to cancel the card but I need to use the MR points. Is the best option at this point just to use the points to book a flight through the Amex portal, or transfer them to Delta (which I can use to fly back to Seattle)? Even domestic flights on Delta are pretty pricy with points.
Nahtanoj
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Nahtanoj »

We stick with the Amex Green card for simplicity. My wife is able to transfer the MR points to her account at the airline she wants to use (ANA) - which is one of the airlines you can do that with. (Other StarAlliance airlines may be similar.) From there she uses the MR points to purchase flights inside the airline's points program. We have used this to buy round-trip coach class tickets to Tokyo multiple times over the years. While I haven't looked at the prices recently, these tickets have typically cost about 50,000 points each - vs. about $2,000 if you paid with cash. This has been a very good deal (although my impression is that ANA has added some fuel surcharges etc. in recent years which may be relevant).

The value of the points may depend a lot on which airline's program you transfer them to, and which routes you want to fly. If you know which airline and destination you are looking for, it may be possible to gather relevant pricing information without wasting too much time on figuring out the ins and outs of each specific card or airline program.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by 02nz »

SeattleLaw wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:33 pm Resurrecting my old thread to make an observation and ask a question. For years we've had a basic 1.5% cash back Amex and the BoA Travel Rewards card. Neither have an annual fee. The rewards don't make us rich, but it sure is simple.

I thought I'd dip my toes into the points world, and I ended up getting the Amex Gold against my better judgment. I liked the idea of a charge card, we spend a bunch on food and travel, and I thought we'd use the monthly "credits."

Here's what I've found:

1. These credit card "credits" are generally pretty worthless unless they are a broad category like "travel." I haven't eaten at a Cheesecake Factory in 10 years and don't plan on going any time soon. I found myself ordering from Grub Hub (and paying significantly more) just so I could "use" the credit. Same for the Uber credit. I don't take an Uber monthly, so I found myself ordering delivery food just to "use" the credit. At the end of the day I was spending money I wouldn't otherwise just to feel like I was using the benefit.

2. I have about 100k MR points and not a clue what to do with them. We want to take a trip to Europe and the Caribbean this year, and I probably spent three hours looking for award flights, and you can barely get a round trip economy ticket for 100k points. I just don't understand how people get any sort of value out of points unless you have a ton of time on your hands or a zillion points. If I used what I make per hour at my day job with the time I spend just trying to use these darn points, I'm out quite a bit of money.

Which brings me to my question... I'm planning to cancel the card but I need to use the MR points. Is the best option at this point just to use the points to book a flight through the Amex portal, or transfer them to Delta (which I can use to fly back to Seattle)? Even domestic flights on Delta are pretty pricy with points.
Not surprised by your experiences. Amex is famous for having credits that are not useful for many cardholders (e.g., credits for membership of a gym that doesn't have locations in many areas). Delta is by far the worst of the major airline mile programs; as an example they charge something like 375K points one-way for a business class flights to Europe, when it's 80-150K on American and United. You'll rarely get much more than 1 cent of value per SkyMile. But MR points won't transfer to AA or United, and it doesn't sound like you want the complexity of figuring out the other programs. You're probably best off just buying the flights at 1 cent each, or even redeeming for gift cards. You can get 1 cent per point on some useful ones, such as Home Depot, and once in a while they even run bonus promotion.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by Jags4186 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:33 pm Resurrecting my old thread to make an observation and ask a question. For years we've had a basic 1.5% cash back Amex and the BoA Travel Rewards card. Neither have an annual fee. The rewards don't make us rich, but it sure is simple.

I thought I'd dip my toes into the points world, and I ended up getting the Amex Gold against my better judgment. I liked the idea of a charge card, we spend a bunch on food and travel, and I thought we'd use the monthly "credits."

Here's what I've found:

1. These credit card "credits" are generally pretty worthless unless they are a broad category like "travel." I haven't eaten at a Cheesecake Factory in 10 years and don't plan on going any time soon. I found myself ordering from Grub Hub (and paying significantly more) just so I could "use" the credit. Same for the Uber credit. I don't take an Uber monthly, so I found myself ordering delivery food just to "use" the credit. At the end of the day I was spending money I wouldn't otherwise just to feel like I was using the benefit.

2. I have about 100k MR points and not a clue what to do with them. We want to take a trip to Europe and the Caribbean this year, and I probably spent three hours looking for award flights, and you can barely get a round trip economy ticket for 100k points. I just don't understand how people get any sort of value out of points unless you have a ton of time on your hands or a zillion points. If I used what I make per hour at my day job with the time I spend just trying to use these darn points, I'm out quite a bit of money.

Which brings me to my question... I'm planning to cancel the card but I need to use the MR points. Is the best option at this point just to use the points to book a flight through the Amex portal, or transfer them to Delta (which I can use to fly back to Seattle)? Even domestic flights on Delta are pretty pricy with points.
The trick to the Grubhub credit is to use it to sign up for Grubhub+. This costs $10/mo. This gets rid of 99% of the fees, and gives you a $10 pickup credit. Then you can just order lunch 1x a month through Grubhub for pickup.

The trick to the Uber credit is to only buy Ubereats when there is a promo code which there is one almost every month. I just got 40% off my next 3 orders up to $15 per order. Of course the other trick to the Uber credit is to never remove the card from your Uber account, even after you cancel. I closed 2x Platinum and 2x gold within the last year, and I still get the credits from 2x of the Gold and 1x of the Platinum every month.

Of course these are annoying to use and they’re annoying on purpose.

You can cash out your 100k MR at $0.01/pt by booking a flight—any flight—through AMEX Travel that costs as close to $1000 as you can get. Then cancel the flight within 24 hours. You’ll get a charge and a refund for the flight on your card plus the MR will be cashed in. You can either spend down the $1000 or just ask AMEX for a check. I wouldn’t make a habit of this if you wanted to stay with AMEX, but since you’re peacing out, I wouldn’t worry much about it.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by oilrig »

SeattleLaw wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:33 pm Resurrecting my old thread to make an observation and ask a question. For years we've had a basic 1.5% cash back Amex and the BoA Travel Rewards card. Neither have an annual fee. The rewards don't make us rich, but it sure is simple.

I thought I'd dip my toes into the points world, and I ended up getting the Amex Gold against my better judgment. I liked the idea of a charge card, we spend a bunch on food and travel, and I thought we'd use the monthly "credits."

Here's what I've found:


2. I have about 100k MR points and not a clue what to do with them. We want to take a trip to Europe and the Caribbean this year, and I probably spent three hours looking for award flights, and you can barely get a round trip economy ticket for 100k points. I just don't understand how people get any sort of value out of points unless you have a ton of time on your hands or a zillion points. If I used what I make per hour at my day job with the time I spend just trying to use these darn points, I'm out quite a bit of money.

Which brings me to my question... I'm planning to cancel the card but I need to use the MR points. Is the best option at this point just to use the points to book a flight through the Amex portal, or transfer them to Delta (which I can use to fly back to Seattle)? Even domestic flights on Delta are pretty pricy with points.
I saw Virgin has one way flights from Seattle to London for 17k Virgin Miles, you can transfer AMEX MR to Virgin.
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

oilrig wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2023 11:46 am
SeattleLaw wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:33 pm Resurrecting my old thread to make an observation and ask a question. For years we've had a basic 1.5% cash back Amex and the BoA Travel Rewards card. Neither have an annual fee. The rewards don't make us rich, but it sure is simple.

I thought I'd dip my toes into the points world, and I ended up getting the Amex Gold against my better judgment. I liked the idea of a charge card, we spend a bunch on food and travel, and I thought we'd use the monthly "credits."

Here's what I've found:


2. I have about 100k MR points and not a clue what to do with them. We want to take a trip to Europe and the Caribbean this year, and I probably spent three hours looking for award flights, and you can barely get a round trip economy ticket for 100k points. I just don't understand how people get any sort of value out of points unless you have a ton of time on your hands or a zillion points. If I used what I make per hour at my day job with the time I spend just trying to use these darn points, I'm out quite a bit of money.

Which brings me to my question... I'm planning to cancel the card but I need to use the MR points. Is the best option at this point just to use the points to book a flight through the Amex portal, or transfer them to Delta (which I can use to fly back to Seattle)? Even domestic flights on Delta are pretty pricy with points.
I saw Virgin has one way flights from Seattle to London for 17k Virgin Miles, you can transfer AMEX MR to Virgin.
Moving to Colorado, so it's mostly Star Alliance (United, Lufthansa) carriers if I want a direct. BA also has a flight, but the surcharges for booking with points are insane!
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daleddm
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by daleddm »

Yep, it's a long game and calls for maximum flexibility. As well, the points accrued tend to lose value over time. You know all that.

Still, one can be careful about transfers of reward points to an airline program and do OK, especially when using partners. The Delta program and their website for booking has been horrible for years. It has long been considered "broken" and written off by many. United is ony marginally better, tho their partners can be OK.

Amex points transfer to many partners ... off the top of my head I think the list includes Singapore, KLM, Air France ... maybe ANA. With the availability and scheduling, high summer is pretty much out, but shoulder seasons are better. I've done very well with points in international business and first ... other times just saving a bundle on last minute domestic that is inexplicably expensive. That you can book last minute, especially on domestic on flights with a lot of open seats, is another benefit.

You might want to try an award booking service as they are good at finding availability, often using unusual routings and/or partners.

I do keep a stash of points in different programs ... something of an insurance policy for last minute flight needs or opportunities that can pop up. But all that being said, I'm in agreement that if the aggravation factor is too high (or devaluations become too onerous), there's something to be said for cash back and purchasing exactly what you want or need.
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by snic »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:20 pm Moving to Colorado, so it's mostly Star Alliance (United, Lufthansa) carriers if I want a direct. BA also has a flight, but the surcharges for booking with points are insane!
If you feel inclined to dip your toes back into the miles/points game (beyond cash back cards), consider Chase cards. Chase partners with several Star Alliance carriers including United, Air Canada, Avianca and Singapore Airlines. Because Denver is better connected to Europe via Star Alliance (UA and LH), you might do better with Chase Ultimate Reward points than Amex points.

My strategy is to have three cards:
1. Sapphire Preferred, $95 annual fee, 3x points on travel and dining, and (very critical) this card allows you to transfer UR points to airlines.
2. Freedom unlimited, no annual fee, 1.5 points for every dollar spent.
3. Freedom, no annual fee, 1 point per dollar but every quarter there is a new category of spending that receives 5 points/dollar.

Points earned from these three cards can be combined and, via the Sapphire, transferred to airlines. I rarely open new cards to collect the bonus (I did this more in the past), and I find that because my family spends so much on credit cards, in about 2-3 years we've accumulated several hundred thousand points. That is enough for business class tickets to Europe or Asia for 2 or 3 people. Of course I am always on the lookout for ways to get more points - for instance, our car insurance bill is $6k/year (teen driver), and the company takes credit cards. That's 9,000 points per year for doing absolutely nothing. Are you going to give someone an Amazon gift card for their birthday or whatever? Well, if Chase Freedom is offering 5x bonus at supermarkets, buy the card at a supermarket instead of at CVS or ordering it directly from Amazon. And so on.

Now, how to find those tickets? This is tricky and not easily explained, but it is doable. What you need is:
1. Persistence and willingness to spend some of your time on a regular basis skimming points blogs and forums like FlyerTalk, as well as occasionally playing around with airline booking websites to see what award seats are available even if you have no plans to travel. By doing that, you gain knowledge about what works and what doesn't.
2. Flexibility. If you can only fly on very specific dates, you can usually forget about using points unless you are willing to part with a LOT of them. Also, if you will only accept a nonstop, that will limit your options. If you're going to be in business class, it's much less painful to fly a few extra hours, and make a connection at an airport with a nice lounge, then if you're in economy.
3. Ability to book far in advance. Some airlines release award seats 10 or 11 months in advance, and some are known for doing so fairly reliably.

I can tell you that it does work if you put the effort into it. I've taken my family of 3 on biz or first class trips to Europe and Asia every 2 to 3 years for the last 15 years or so, without playing crazy games like "manufactured spending" or opening or closing an inordinate number of card accounts just for the bonuses. Most of these trips were booked far in advance, and none of the tickets involved more than maybe $100 or $150 in taxes (and usually much less). Some memorable trips include having the entire upper deck of a Lufthansa 747 to ourselves, and a recent trip Down Under in Singapore Airlines business class, which has truly phenomenal service (I was addressed by name literally every time I interacted with a flight attendant).
manlymatt83
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by manlymatt83 »

Yup this is my setup.

I use Amex Platinum, Amex Gold, Amex BBP, and BILT

5x on flights
4x on grocery
4x on dining
2x on everything else

Bilt card is my non-amex backup.

I use pointsyeah.com to figure out what to transfer to and book business class seats. I tend to get 2 cents per point of actual value (what I WOULD have been willing to pay). The platinum and gold card have annual fees but I organically break even due to my regular use of Uber and Grubhub as well as travel credits
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SeattleLaw
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by SeattleLaw »

manlymatt83 wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:05 am I use pointsyeah.com to figure out what to transfer to and book business class seats. I tend to get 2 cents per point of actual value (what I WOULD have been willing to pay). The platinum and gold card have annual fees but I organically break even due to my regular use of Uber and Grubhub as well as travel credits
This looks like a really interesting website, but it says that my departure airport is “up in the air.” And it doesn’t really give you flight options until you transfer the points? Am I using this wrong?
theplayer11
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by theplayer11 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:41 am
Jags4186 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 9:00 am There is plenty of value in points. There's a multi-billion dollar travel industry online teaching people how to leverage points for maximum value. You said you don't want to do that, so I don't think it is a good option for you if you're seeking higher rewards return. As shown above in my math, there is value. It's just generally not as good a value compared to cashback if you're not willing to put in any effort. Lots of people make suboptimal financial decisions whether it's out of ignorance, lack of time, or contentment with the status quo.
I'm sure you are correct, but it just seems too complicated unless you are chasing sign up bonuses and banking a lot of points. The fact that there are services out there you pay to help you use your rewards points, indicates to me it isn't as easy as just transferring them to an airline program and buying a flight with miles.

Any time I've tried to use FF miles, the amount you need for a single ticket are astronomical, and forget trying to buy one for your spouse. Assuming I rack up 120k points in a year based on regular spend, that's maybe a single round trip economy ticket to Europe, which I could pay $750 cash for. Or, I could maybe get a one way business class ticket, but then I end up spending $700 for the one-way economy ticket back.

I wouldn't mind spending an hour finding a good flight, but I fear the work needed to get free flights on points through transfer partners is a lot more than that. (or at least a flight that isn't on a weird schedule with multiple stops and odd timing).
It is that easy. The problem for most people who are down on points is that they always want to fly peak season or they don't plan their vacations far enough in advance to get great redemptions. I fly from east coast to Madrid in business class(lay flat seats) for 68k points RT off season, 100k peak.
manlymatt83
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Re: Membership Rewards - buying flights with points?

Post by manlymatt83 »

SeattleLaw wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:09 am
manlymatt83 wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 12:05 am I use pointsyeah.com to figure out what to transfer to and book business class seats. I tend to get 2 cents per point of actual value (what I WOULD have been willing to pay). The platinum and gold card have annual fees but I organically break even due to my regular use of Uber and Grubhub as well as travel credits
This looks like a really interesting website, but it says that my departure airport is “up in the air.” And it doesn’t really give you flight options until you transfer the points? Am I using this wrong?
You need to create a (free) account to actually see data. This is so people don’t scrape their site. There’s no cost.
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